00:03:55.700but it also drove more than 20,000 people to subscribe to TiVo.
00:04:00.060Now, what I remember the clearest about this incident
00:04:02.540is Janet herself talking about how traumatic it was for her.
00:04:06.940It's truly embarrassing to know that 90 million people saw my breast
00:04:11.000And then to see it blown up on the internet the size of a computer screen.
00:04:14.800There are much worse things in the world.
00:04:16.820And for this to be such a focus, I don't understand, she told USA Today.
00:04:21.800This moment and our collective reaction to it
00:04:24.740revealed a lot about intersecting issues that we sometimes have trouble talking about.
00:04:29.280Gender, race, sexuality, all unfolding against a media climate
00:04:33.540ready and willing to publicly denigrate a Black woman.0.50
00:04:36.340To better understand this moment, how it led to the creation of YouTube, and what it says about our current internet landscape for Black women, and everybody, I turn to Kimberly Foster.
00:04:48.460My name is Kimberly Foster. I am a writer, editor, content creator, cultural critic, a whole bunch of things.
00:04:59.820Kimberly has been unpacking Black feminist thought online for over a decade with her digital community for Black women called For Harriet.1.00
00:05:06.340You really have built your own lane using technology and digital media and the internet with For Harriet. And I know that this really came up at a time where there wasn't really a lot of spaces to get Black feminist thought online. I would love to know how that came to be, like how you came to be this woman who kind of made your own lane having an opinion on the internet. And what does it feel like to be such an early originator of Black feminist online discourse?
00:05:34.240Oh, well, first of all, that's so nice. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. I think I've
00:05:42.700always been obsessed with the internet ever since I can remember. We first got on the internet when
00:05:47.620I was in kindergarten and my mom is an engineer. So she was so pro-technology and so pro-computers
00:05:56.060and exploration. She actually gave me my first HTML book and is like, have fun, go crazy.
00:06:03.120And so ever since I was in elementary school, I've just been like, what is this?
00:06:07.480And I learned that you can connect to people and create your own spaces and create your
00:10:35.200One of my first concerts. And so one of the things that people I think don't really know a lot about is the way that this one traumatic moment in her life really did shape a lot of what it means to show up online.
00:10:48.600And so you talked about the way that YouTube was really inspired by her wardrobe malfunction at the Super Bowl. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
00:10:56.300yeah so i too am a janet jackson stan shout out to my mother when i was 12 years old she took me
00:11:05.280to see the all for you tour which actually was a little a little risque some risque parts in it
00:11:10.900but i'm so glad that she did that because it completely just opened up my mind and just made
00:11:18.440me just hone in on janet as the originator the queen of pop do not debate me um and so i was
00:11:25.380really excited for the two-part documentary um that she had a hand in because she's been so
00:11:32.700historically private and of course I watched the documentary and then there's all of this
00:11:37.060commentary about it and that commentary led me to go down all of these little rabbit holes
00:11:43.020and learn more about the incident nipple gate and so I read I mean I watched the New York Times
00:11:51.380little, is it, you know, those little, I hesitate to call it documentary. It's like an exploration
00:11:58.380of the incident, watched all kinds of YouTube videos, listened to podcasts about it. And I
00:12:05.420came away feeling differently, but really what struck me was how the furor over this incident,
00:12:13.400The desire for people to see Janet Jackson's exposed nipple inspired these in like science, science of technology to create this technology so that people could watch it like YouTube.
00:12:32.880Right. So the founders of YouTube were like, hey, we need to create a platform where like people can see this lady's boob on demand.
00:12:40.100And then they're like, OK, well, let's dedicate our resources to creating this platform where people can see this woman's boob on demand, despite the fact that her entire life was derailed because of people's desire, you know, like the simultaneous desire and repulsion from her boob.
00:12:57.000I felt like that was really interesting.
00:12:59.640And of course, YouTube blows up and it's now, what is it, the second largest search engine
00:13:18.560So let's go all in on the streaming market that YouTube proved was viable.
00:13:24.080So all of this comes from the desire, a very distinct desire for people to see this one particular moment that ultimately derailed Janet Jackson's career and changed her life.
00:13:38.000And it's so unfortunate for me as a Janet Jackson stan that it's almost like you can't even mention Janet without talking about Nipplegate, when in reality, she's so much more than that.
00:13:48.740But of course, as Black women, whenever there's an opportunity, we're always going to be reduced not only to our most humiliating moments, but we're going to be reduced down to our body parts.
00:13:58.000And so I thought it was really important to note that that moment created these technologies that now we're spending all of our time on.
00:14:07.320Yeah, I think that you put that so well. And I do want to note, I think that when people want to disrespect and denigrate Janet, they always say, oh, she did that at the Super Bowl because her career was in the gutter and she was just trying to get people talking about her.
00:14:23.820If your career is in the gutter, you're not performing at the Super Bowl.0.86
00:14:26.260Like her career was massively successful way before that.
00:14:30.540You know, this idea that she was like a nobody who was just trying to get attention.
00:14:33.740It's something I hate when people say that because it's just so verifiably false.
00:14:39.220I mean, this is the thing and not to get me off in my Janet stand bag, but I'm so glad
00:14:46.560that that documentary highlighted the number of records that janet jackson broke throughout her
00:14:53.740career at one point she had the biggest she signed the biggest recording deal ever for a woman in pop0.73
00:15:01.100music ever black white like other ever she was it there was like she had two albums where there was0.86
00:15:08.160like six top 10 singles like this is a huge artist selling out concerts all around the world like0.96
00:15:15.780it's easy for us to forget particularly when it comes to black women's accomplishments how
00:15:23.280enormous they are but janet was it and so yes i so agree with you that the idea that she was
00:15:32.300somehow floundering or that she had to do this because she needed money or attention or whatever
00:15:39.420like she was the spectacle like she was it she was it i had to go off on that no it's i'm right
00:15:48.100there with you you know why do you think that it is not like you were talking earlier about how
00:15:54.180things like netflix and youtube but they're they're websites that we use or technologies0.86
00:15:58.340that we use they're commonplace we use them all the time why do you think the way that a black
00:16:04.260woman's trauma was sort of the foundation for these things that go on to be so ubiquitous in
00:16:10.520all of our lives. Why is that erased? Why do you think that's not a common knowledge?0.98
00:16:16.540I think because Black women's bodies, in particular, and our traumas generally are1.00
00:16:23.360seen as public property. There is generally a sense of entitlement. Like, we should just be0.92
00:16:29.680happy to give these things over, to sacrifice them, that they are, you know, like our bodies
00:16:36.120are like open source software, right? Like anybody can dig in, anybody can extract and it's just for
00:16:43.380the public good. And so there's no, like you mentioned, thought given to how is the person
00:16:49.500you're extracting from being harmed by this? In Janet's case, and obviously historically,
00:16:54.800I mean, that goes, that's centuries old.
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00:17:53.260you at iHeartAdvertising.com. That's iHeartAdvertising.com. When I was 14 years old,
00:18:00.020I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how
00:18:06.540other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the
00:18:12.360Survivor Files. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say0.96
00:18:20.560anything. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up
00:18:28.020without a doubt he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my
00:18:34.920bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:18:42.260But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make
00:18:47.980it out alive listen to the survivor files with elizabeth smart on the iheart radio app apple
00:18:54.380podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally
00:19:00.260important to your personality welcome home this is prose society the weekly podcast that's part
00:19:07.600book club part group chat for thought daughters pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks
00:19:12.340pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every
00:19:17.520week we're connecting the dots between books the internet and the conversations everyone can't stop
00:19:22.540having i'm gonna have to look up this story i'm obsessed i'm obsessed from best-selling authors
00:19:27.960and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments nothing is off the table it's
00:19:33.360like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters and that is a trojan horse
00:19:40.380whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart pop culture conversations or a community
00:19:45.540of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society
00:19:51.040on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between
00:19:56.600the pages. And we're back. I've seen the ways that misogyny and misogynoir, the way that sexism
00:20:08.880and racism intersect to oppress Black women specifically, is baked into technology. And it's
00:20:14.300not surprising to me, given how many technological innovations were inspired by sexism. For instance,
00:20:21.420back in 2003, a Harvard University student named Mark Zuckerberg made FaceMash, a social media
00:20:26.920platform to rate women on their looks. Here's what Zuck himself had to say. I'm a little intoxicated,
00:20:33.140not gonna lie. So what if it's not even 10 p.m. and it's a Tuesday night? The Kirkland dorm
00:20:38.620Facebook is open on my desktop, and some of these people have pretty horrendous pictures.
00:20:43.660I almost want to put some of these faces next to pictures of farm animals
00:20:46.600and have people vote on which is more attractive.
00:20:49.260The site was taken down by Harvard, and a year later, Facebook was born.
00:20:53.740So we already know the world is full of things like classism, ableism, sexism, racism,
00:20:57.780and all the other isms that keep us from being free.
00:21:00.640And it's really tempting to be hopeful
00:21:02.680and think that technology won't just replicate these harmful oppressions.
00:21:07.000But Kimberly says it takes intentional unlearning and vigilance
00:21:10.220to really see how these systems show up and intersect.
00:21:12.960And if tech leaders are unable or unwilling to do this work, they'll just end up creating technologies that recreate these same harmful systems.
00:21:21.200I believe misogyny, specifically misogynoir, like shout out to Moya Bailey, is baked into the foundation of so much technology and so much of the experience of being on the Internet.
00:21:32.180And I really see this idea that YouTube was founded on this trauma that a black woman experienced so publicly is a great example of that.
00:21:39.520Do you agree with this? What do you think about that?0.98
00:21:41.620I think that the foundations of our society are built off of misogynoir and because people are
00:21:50.820not doing the work to actively unlearn it or to actively wrestle with it or deal with their biases
00:21:57.240that it creeps into every facet of our society and despite the fact that people who work in
00:22:03.820technology believe themselves to be particularly progressive and forward-thinking of course it
00:22:10.000seeps into those worlds as well and so if we're not having conversations constantly about hey
00:22:19.400you are perpetuating misogynoir right now it's it's just gonna be there I mean it's it's baked
00:22:25.920into the cake it's baked into the to our psyches so yeah it's it's pretty this is depressing but
00:22:33.060it feels in like an inevitability because most people aren't doing that work so you so you see
00:22:38.720technology as kind of amplifying and elevating this misogynoir that's just already in society.
00:22:46.500And so when you build something online or when you use technology to build something
00:22:50.340and you don't intentionally work to dismantle that or unlearn that or unpack that, you are
00:22:55.800simply baking that same misogynoir into whatever you're designing.
00:24:55.580But knowing full well what they are doing, knowing full well that that is going to drive engagement, and it has this kind of sheen of plausible deniability where they're not saying anything.
00:25:09.100They're simply posting a picture of a queer Black child and, you know, asking people what they think.
00:25:15.540And I find that to be such an indication of the ways that social media platforms and digital platforms will always be able to count on disrespecting and denigrating marginalized people for engagement.0.53
00:25:30.260And in fact, that engagement is incentivized and it's baked into the experience of using some of these platforms.
00:25:35.840yeah it's an incredibly toxic cycle the internet largely and social media platforms in particular
00:25:43.960are fueled by outrage and abuse abuse happens we see it we experience it we're traumatized
00:25:52.580and then of course people are outraged and that is the engagement circle you know so it's abuse
00:26:00.920after abuse after abuse. You're trying to scold somebody, express your distaste, express your
00:26:08.400scorn, and you're typing your little fingers away. You might even, you know, this is a thing
00:26:14.260that I'm not sure we've reconnected with, like you're reposting abusive content to say this is
00:26:20.380abusive. So it just travels further and further. And the outrage fuels the comments and the response
00:26:27.600videos and the posts. And we're all really and truly in a very, a horrible, I think, psychologically
00:26:35.660really damaging cycle with how these platforms are set up. Oh, absolutely. I mean, I used to,
00:26:45.640when I first got on TikTok, I used to follow a lot of creators who their whole thing was,
00:26:50.560and no shade to these people. I'm not saying that like they're bad people, but it just wasn't for me.
00:26:55.000their whole thing would be you know look at this video of someone being racist like like and you
00:27:02.200know I guess I just and I would I would engage with these videos but they would leave me feeling
00:27:07.920so empty and so bad and so sort of distrustful and it just reinforced this idea of you know I
00:27:17.020can't trust when I go outside I can't trust people outside I can't trust my neighbors like
00:27:21.360it really fueled something kind of scary in me, I guess. And it made me realize I want more. Like,
00:27:27.760I want more from platforms. I want to be offered more than outrage and abuse and disrespect and
00:27:33.800denigration. Can't we have better conversations and better experiences online? It seems like
00:27:39.740maybe we can't anymore. Oh, I know people hate the phrase safe spaces. I know that that's become
00:27:47.140kind of like a boogeyman, like the word woke has. But I do think that increasingly people are trying
00:27:54.520to forge spaces where they're not going to be inundated with trauma and awfulness and abusive
00:28:03.700content all the time. I think that is one of the reasons why platforms like Discord have
00:28:09.940blown up over the past 18 months. I know for me, I spend a lot of time on private communities like
00:28:18.280the Patreon community, which is hard, right? Because I understand you're always erecting
00:28:26.360barriers when you are putting things behind a paywall. But for my own mental health, for my
00:28:34.640own well-being as a public person who has experienced so much abuse I just have felt
00:28:41.260better by saying okay I'm just not gonna have this conversation out in the big world out on
00:28:47.340the big internet we're gonna keep it on the discord we're gonna keep it on the patreon where
00:28:51.700maybe I can't trust all of the people who are there because I don't know some bad actors make
00:28:58.600it in. But there's some filters. And I feel like that's increasingly what's happening. People are
00:29:06.880moving from the open internet, open platforms to Facebook groups, to discords, to Patreons,
00:29:16.000to private communities. Yeah, I've definitely noticed that. I mean, I still have a Facebook.
00:29:21.740I barely use it. And the only reason that I am there at all is because of private Facebook
00:29:26.280groups. It's the only thing that keeps me there. And it's so interesting how we have really moved
00:29:31.920toward kind of like thinking about our internet experiences and spaces as more like campfires,
00:29:36.960like, oh, we're going to curate who comes. We're all going to have this shared interest. And that's
00:29:42.140what we're going to gather around as opposed to just, you know, public forums, anybody come on
00:29:46.920in. And, you know, I know that you've talked quite a bit about this idea of scale and the way that
00:29:53.220trying to grow things to be the biggest, biggest, biggest thing kind of will always be at odds with
00:30:02.120like feelings like care and intention. And so it seems like one of those things where it's like,
00:30:07.460if you're doing something behind a paywall, yeah, maybe it'll never be the biggest community with
00:30:13.420everybody there where you're making tons of money. And maybe that's okay. Maybe being able to have a
00:30:19.720little bit more intentionality around the communities that you build and have a little
00:30:23.260bit more of control over it in that way, maybe that's okay. And maybe not, maybe going into
00:30:28.860building these spaces with a goal that is not making them as big or as powerful or as lucrative
00:30:35.360as they can be, maybe that's okay. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned incentives earlier and really the
00:30:43.420incentive structures for everybody, including creators, are so messed up. And so I agree with
00:30:52.500you that there are things that I'm just not going to do anymore. I'm not going to make the video
00:30:59.300about, look at this horrible thing that just happened. Look at this Black woman being abused.0.98
00:31:04.200Let's be I am not in that space anymore. It's just too harmful to me. Like, I just I can't deal with it anymore. But I understand that so many creators under they see that that's where the engagement is, which means that's where the money is.1.00
00:31:24.040and it is already so difficult as a creator,
00:31:27.880particularly as a Black creator, to make a living.
00:31:31.360I see what people are doing when they're doing that.
00:31:35.100I'm speaking from a place of extreme privilege when I say
00:33:10.380And so I think what you just described,
00:33:12.640It's like a cycle where platforms have incentivized that kind of content, and they're making money off of it, and it just keeps us all, like you said, stuck in this cycle that is not prioritizing care.
00:34:51.600Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:34:56.140I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:35:00.700I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:35:08.140They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:35:12.100But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:35:15.540They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:35:18.680Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:35:27.640If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:35:33.560This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:35:46.040I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:35:53.160I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:35:56.680From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:36:02.680It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:36:10.160Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:36:19.760Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:36:28.660So if you've ever wondered, I wonder what Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast, then I have great news for you.
00:36:34.160We just launched our brand new newsletter where I'm going to be writing about things I'm paying attention to online, interesting stories that didn't make it to the podcast, and a whole lot more.
00:37:02.800How do you think we get to a place where platforms and online spaces are not built on things like disrespect or, you know, outrageousness or being inflammatory or abuse, but can actually feel like care, you know, like the space that you've built?0.93
00:37:17.640Or should we just be focused on, you know, building our own shit, as I know that you are a big advocate for?0.86
00:37:25.380Man, people ask me this all the time.0.98
00:37:28.680I think that one good place to start, this is a beginning and not the end, is I think that platforms need to be very serious about paying creators better, giving out money, giving out grants, paying creators.
00:37:50.560I mean, even when they do start to offer these incentives, like Instagram now has started offering incentives for reels and content and all of that.
00:38:01.480It's so little money or it's so there's no rhyme or reason to how you get paid and how much you get paid.
00:38:08.560If there was transparency around that, I think that that would be really, really helpful.
00:38:12.940But honestly, I don't think that we're ever going to get equity or anything that even looks like justice from any of the platforms that we have right now.
00:38:27.040I think that the C word is coming. Capitalism and the goals and desires of these platforms are irreconcilable with the goal and the need for content creators, specifically marginalized content creators, to take care of themselves, to be able to take breaks, to not have to exploit every single abuse and offense.
00:38:53.260I just don't see I just don't see the possibility for that at this time I think it's like tear it
00:39:02.820all down and try again I mean that's so often the answer when we ask these big questions
00:39:11.100recognizing that it's systemic it's institutional right it's like we need completely new paradigms
00:39:16.900and new systems there's nothing that you know I definitely advocate for people particularly
00:39:21.500marginalized creators but really anybody to take breaks when they need it from the internet all of
00:39:25.300that but you can't take breaks or like self-care your way out of something that is structural and
00:39:30.380so i think sometimes it's an unsatisfying answer that like oh yeah we need to burn it all down and
00:39:34.600start again but that's the answer yeah i mean i'm not trying to bullshit people right like
00:39:41.940i understand that twitter is always going to be about trying to optimize profits for shareholder
00:39:51.420I understand that meta is always going to be about trying to get the most advertising dollars, trying to get the most screen time, right?