There Are No Girls on the Internet - WTF is going on at Netflix？ BEST OF TANGOTI

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00:01:58.620 there are no girls on the internet as a production of iheart radio and unbossed creative

00:02:07.040 i'm bridget todd and this is there are no girls on the internet

00:02:14.080 There's a lot going on at Netflix.

00:02:19.000 For the first time in over a decade, the streaming service lost subscribers.

00:02:24.440 Netflix lost about 200,000 subscribers, where it originally expected to gain 2.5 million.

00:02:31.000 And they also said that they expect to lose 2 million more subscribers in the second quarter.

00:02:36.180 So who is Netflix blaming for this poor showing?

00:02:39.640 Us, the viewers, for sharing passwords.

00:02:42.840 But Gizmodo spoke to media analyst Michael Patcher,

00:02:46.200 who is pretty dubious of the idea

00:02:47.900 that sharing passwords is to blame, 0.95

00:02:50.020 saying it's just the dumbest idea whatsoever.

00:02:53.180 Incidents of password sharing 0.81

00:02:54.540 did not grow materially during the quarter.

00:02:57.140 They've always known about it, he said.

00:02:59.280 And Netflix pretty much agreed.

00:03:01.760 The company acknowledged in a letter to investors

00:03:03.920 that account sharing, as a percentage of our paying membership,

00:03:07.320 hasn't changed much over the years.

00:03:09.460 So, as Oprah might say,

00:03:10.980 what is the truth? Netflix laid off 150 staffers, about 2% of the United States workforce,

00:03:18.400 many of whom are Black, Brown, queer, and trans staffers who were specifically courted from other

00:03:23.460 jobs to lead initiatives that champion inclusion at Netflix. Layoffs gutted popular programs,

00:03:30.220 like Strong Black Lead, a vertical for Black content, which is often held up as a shining

00:03:34.760 example of how to market and build community around inclusive content. Other verticals that

00:03:39.880 focus on content, specifically for marginalized communities, were also gutted by layoffs,

00:03:44.120 like the Latinx-focused Contoto, Asian-American-focused Golden, and the LGBTQ-focused

00:03:49.820 vertical Most. Now, it's unclear what will happen to these initiatives or to inclusive content at

00:03:54.900 Netflix going forward, but the company may have given us a little bit of a hint in a recent update

00:03:59.700 to their culture memo, which basically says if staffers don't want to associate with offensive

00:04:04.240 content they may put out, they should just quit. It says, if you'd find it hard to support our

00:04:10.580 content breadth, Netflix may not be the best place for you. Now, this is probably a reference to

00:04:17.400 content like Dave Chappelle's Netflix comedy special that led to staff walkouts and turmoil

00:04:22.040 last fall. Bea Paggles Minor, a Black, trans, then-pregnant Netflix employee who was fired 1.00

00:04:28.640 when the company accused them of leaking the fact

00:04:31.060 that Netflix paid Dave Chappelle $24.1 million

00:04:34.300 for his comedy special that included transphobic content.

00:04:38.680 Bee gave us lots of good insight

00:04:40.220 into the culture at Netflix.

00:04:42.100 So let's revisit our conversation from this past fall.

00:04:50.260 After the release of Dave Chappelle's new comedy special,

00:04:53.080 The Closer, on Netflix,

00:04:54.700 Netflix staffers and their allies

00:04:56.200 spoke up about the special's transphobic material

00:04:58.460 and organized a walkout.

00:05:00.940 Chappelle doubled down in a newly released clip

00:05:03.240 where he said Netflix staff said they wanted a safer work environment,

00:05:06.960 but that he's the only one who's not able to get into the building at Netflix anymore.

00:05:10.740 It seems like I'm the only one that can't go to the office anymore.

00:05:14.820 But you want to know someone who most definitely cannot get back into the Netflix building? 1.00

00:05:19.020 B. Pagelsminer, a very pregnant Black trans former program manager

00:05:23.040 who Netflix fired for alleging they were the source of a Bloomberg article

00:05:26.920 about just how much money Netflix spent on the special.

00:05:30.760 Now, Bee disputes this, as do their co-workers.

00:05:33.900 And even after Bee was fired,

00:05:35.840 Bloomberg continues to publish new internal metrics from Netflix,

00:05:39.380 making it even more unlikely.

00:05:41.700 Bee, along with Tara Field,

00:05:43.360 a trans-Netflix senior software engineer

00:05:45.280 who was suspended for tweeting critically about the special,

00:05:48.320 have filed suits with the National Labor Relations Board,

00:05:51.760 saying that Netflix engaged in activity

00:05:53.460 to quell employees from speaking up about working conditions,

00:05:56.620 including seeking to create a safe and affirming work environment,

00:05:59.500 speaking up about Netflix products and the impact its product choices have on the LGBTQ community,

00:06:04.540 and providing support for employees whom Netflix has treated in an unlawful and disparate manner.

00:06:09.980 And as much as Dave Chappelle keeps talking about how he's being canceled,

00:06:14.220 you know, naturally as one does from a massive stage in front of a massive adoring audience

00:06:18.120 while earning millions for it,

00:06:19.900 the demands of the Netflix staffers who walked out

00:06:22.020 do not include asking Netflix to take down the comedy special.

00:06:26.640 Instead, Netflix staffers are asking for things like comparable investment in trans and non-binary-led projects at Netflix and more trans and non-binary people in leadership positions.

00:06:36.760 Bee is clear that this is about so much more than one comedy special.

00:06:40.840 So, my name is Bee Pagels Minor. My pronouns are they, them, theirs. And my current title is Growing a Baby.

00:06:49.580 and that's about it so i read your washington post piece and i read the piece on your blog

00:06:58.380 both of which really talked about this journey for you really kind of fully embracing who you

00:07:03.120 are and i guess one of my questions for you was like what was it like to feel seen in that way

00:07:08.140 you know um to share this truth about yourself like were you did you feel seen working at netflix

00:07:15.040 Was it something that, you know, felt like a good fit?

00:07:19.180 Yeah, you know, it's really interesting because I would say yes and no, right?

00:07:24.280 So, like, in terms of the internal environment at Netflix, I definitely felt like I had a lot of support to be a Black person, a trans person, a lesbian, you know, loud, you know, someone who dissents very loudly, things like that.

00:07:39.400 but but one of the complaints i've always had and something that obviously is coming up again here

00:07:44.160 is the lack of content so it was so strange to be like this internal employee feel pretty validated

00:07:50.800 feel pretty supported but then when i looked at the things that were on screen i didn't see

00:07:55.560 anything that looked like me and that cognitive dissonance was one of the things that bothered me

00:07:59.900 most about working there right you know i really wanted to say like you know first of all i'm

00:08:05.840 in mississippi they are black the actual majority of mississippi is black right majority of mississippi

00:08:11.800 is also rural you know why don't we have shows about that i watched pea valley last year and it

00:08:17.820 was so funny because my friends were like pea valley doesn't seem like your type of show i was

00:08:22.120 like it's about it's about black people mississippi i was so excited i was like i was like i finally

00:08:26.680 get to see people who are like my family who grew that i grew up around and so it's always like that

00:08:33.300 that little bit of like, yes, I feel good because I have great benefits. I have a great salary. I

00:08:39.180 get to be loud. I'm doing some of the best work of my life. But no, because I really feel like

00:08:44.620 we're missing the mark on showing representative lives of diverse types of people.

00:08:51.440 Conversations around identity and representation at Netflix did not start with Dave Chappelle.

00:08:56.220 Internally, Netflix staffers have been pushing these conversations about whose story gets told

00:09:00.340 and by who and how for years.

00:09:02.780 Like many companies,

00:09:03.980 Netflix has Employee Resource Groups, or ERGs,

00:09:07.020 employee-led initiatives within a company

00:09:08.840 that work to create inclusivity

00:09:10.600 along certain demographics and identities.

00:09:12.920 There's Dream at Netflix

00:09:14.140 to champion immigrant representation, 1.00

00:09:16.180 Black at Netflix,

00:09:17.560 L'Chaim at Netflix for Jewish representation,

00:09:20.880 Vetflix for veteran representation,

00:09:22.800 Indigenous at Netflix, and more.

00:09:25.120 TransStar is the ERG

00:09:26.640 that champions trans identity

00:09:27.980 and representation at Netflix,

00:09:29.260 that B helped lead. And after the release of the film Girl, a 2019 Belgian film about a trans

00:09:35.500 ballet dancer that faced criticism for its depiction of things like body dysmorphia and

00:09:39.180 self-harm in the trans community. It's so easy for people to think that these conversations

00:09:44.560 happening internally around Netflix and the content they produce, and sort of the way that

00:09:49.900 the content represents or does not represent all folks, you know, trans identities, all of that.

00:09:55.780 But it's easy to think that those conversations began and ended with this Dave Chappelle special.

00:10:01.300 But we know that's not true.

00:10:02.460 Can you give me a little bit of a history lesson of where these conversations at Netflix actually did start?

00:10:07.220 So the trans-specific conversation started around the release of Girl.

00:10:11.900 So the Girl movie, it was definitely a misrepresentation of trans culture.

00:10:18.100 And that's when, you know, it was almost three years ago.

00:10:20.340 That's when people first started asking questions about, hey, like, why did we put that out there?

00:10:24.880 this is harmful content it's not true it's a terrible representation of trans culture

00:10:29.920 separately i was also the erg erg lead for blackette right and the blackette is the oldest erg

00:10:37.540 out of all the ergs and they've been talking about that for like six or seven years right so

00:10:42.920 for six or seven years they've been talking about black content black representation making sure

00:10:46.940 content's there so the conversation around content and having it be representative is in the dna of

00:10:52.900 netflix for diverse people who work there the question has simply been why the heck has it not

00:10:59.640 moved forward like why the heck have we not gotten to the point that the content really reflects all

00:11:05.660 of this this internal debate internal conversation that's been very very robust and in fact when you

00:11:12.860 actually think about it you know a lot of the comments that have been made is oh well netflix

00:11:18.120 is one of the first places that ever had

00:11:20.060 a trans person. And I'm like, yeah.

00:11:22.080 Yeah, we know Laverne was on Oranges of the New Black.

00:11:24.460 You know, we know

00:11:25.700 Nomi from Sensei.

00:11:28.260 But at the same time,

00:11:29.960 if you can only name two or three,

00:11:32.340 that's probably not a good way to go about

00:11:34.120 this. You know?

00:11:36.120 And then we also know when Laverne was on Oranges of the New

00:11:38.200 Black, they were dubbing

00:11:40.100 her words

00:11:41.620 with men in other countries.

00:11:44.240 What? Yes, they really were.

00:11:45.960 I did not know that. And it was

00:11:47.940 so offensive and for instance trans star is another great example when trans star was consulted by the

00:11:52.480 dubbing team and they were like so how should we deal with this in the future and we were like well

00:11:56.080 you know we understand that in different countries in different languages it might be difficult to

00:12:01.100 find someone who perfectly matches someone's voice and if that is the case just ask the person what

00:12:07.420 they think you know don't don't just make an arbitrary decision seek out support create

00:12:14.020 relationships and honor people by letting them be represented in the way that makes most sense to

00:12:18.600 them. Right. You know, that actually brings up a good point, which is that I was very surprised

00:12:23.440 to hear that the trans employee resource group was not really consulted at all in the rollout

00:12:27.700 of this special. And so part of me was like, why even have this group at Netflix if you're not

00:12:32.700 going to actually empower them to be involved when things like this are rolled out? And so

00:12:36.980 for the sake of argument, let's say that the trans employee resource group had been consulted

00:12:42.500 during this rollout. Are there things that you could have seen y'all actually like suggesting

00:12:47.040 to make this less harmful? Yeah. And that's been, that's actually been the number one point here.

00:12:52.620 Like there's no desire to stop creative freedom, right? Like the simple fact is there are contracts,

00:12:59.100 you move forward with the content based on those contracts, but there's no desire to stop them.

00:13:04.280 And so when I, you know, thought about it, when I first saw it, I was just like,

00:13:07.120 why did y'all decide to release this in october during lgbtq plus history month like that's a

00:13:12.620 terrible idea you know why did you not think about the term turf and how that because that became

00:13:19.080 the the like klaxon like that became the thing that everyone was focused on and in fact it was

00:13:25.880 external groups who were just like you know dave chappelle the turf netflix released this it was

00:13:30.500 all external people who were completely incensed that they saw something like that and so it like

00:13:36.500 you know we could have said you know the trans star group could have said by the way you may

00:13:40.760 want to just cut that joke like you know you may want to like you know tweak that or like ask and

00:13:46.620 the thing is and when i say that i mean talk to dave about it and say dave your bigger point is

00:13:52.060 this like lgbtq plus movement versus black movement and your point is going to get lost

00:13:57.780 because of this statement right and so it's about making the content get to his point versus having

00:14:04.840 all of this furor around it and so that's the thing that's what trans star does that's what

00:14:08.820 trans star has always offered to do one of the other things that i did as trans star lead was

00:14:13.120 also to meet with content executives and all and i call it the friendship offensive and all we would

00:14:18.600 do is go have conversations with these folks and say hey we're humans we're great we can help you

00:14:24.060 make great content and i'm going to tell you some of the the pieces of you know productions that we

00:14:29.700 worked on i know for a fact that they're so much better because we just sat down with those people

00:14:34.220 and told them different ways.

00:14:35.680 And they would send us emails and say,

00:14:37.260 what do you think of this?

00:14:38.140 What do you think of that?

00:14:39.160 And all we did was consult.

00:14:40.980 You know, it was never, oh, like, you know,

00:14:44.180 we are the barrier to this amazing thing being created.

00:14:50.420 It was how can we make it better

00:14:52.420 so that Netflix's reputation isn't harmed,

00:14:55.480 so that trans people aren't harmed,

00:14:57.620 and so that people get a good message out of it.

00:15:00.760 That's such a good point,

00:15:01.780 because the only thing I have heard about this comedy special is the transphobia and the TERF

00:15:08.060 comments and the JK Rowling comments. Whatever the other point Dave was trying to make, it did not

00:15:12.900 reach me. It did not reach Twitter. And I have to wonder, like, was that actually...

00:15:18.600 Like, I feel like if he had been open to be thought partners with you all, his special would

00:15:25.140 have been that much better, that much more, you know, just that much more truthful and authentic.

00:15:31.380 And it's like, what a missed opportunity to make something better and also less harmful.

00:15:36.660 Like, what a win-win that was just missed.

00:15:39.760 Yeah, I mean, one of the things I saw someone tweet, they were like, I haven't seen anyone drop a video, a GIF, a meme of the special that had a joke in it.

00:15:53.020 And they were like, how can the special be successful if they haven't dropped a single one?

00:15:57.580 And I was like, you have a point.

00:15:59.080 they've only dropped the really incendiary thing and so go and so to your point is true like you

00:16:04.680 know i do feel like the special could have been so much more powerful if there had been that

00:16:09.560 partnership because i do think i understand what he's trying to say i disagree with it right like

00:16:14.200 i and i would say this because to a certain extent the special is trying to pit lgbtq plus

00:16:19.800 versus the civil rights movement i am a black trans person i'm at the intersection of these

00:16:24.680 two groups i get screwed over by both groups right like like like legitimately i get screwed

00:16:29.500 over by both groups and so like i do think that this oppression olympics like one movement hurting

00:16:34.640 another movement i don't think that's true in fact if you think about the same-sex marriage law that

00:16:39.280 went into effect many years ago they actually you know use loving versus virginia as part of their

00:16:45.380 their logic behind it because they're saying that minority individuals deserve the same rights

00:16:51.140 as anyone else in this country.

00:16:54.100 And so I actually think that both the civil rights movement

00:16:56.420 and the LGBTQ rights movement are intrinsically linked

00:17:00.120 and we would be empowered by uniting them

00:17:03.160 versus assuming that one happens over the other one.

00:17:08.060 And it just, I mean, I completely agree.

00:17:10.300 We're definitely, our movements are stronger together

00:17:12.740 when we support each other.

00:17:13.720 And it completely erases people at the intersections

00:17:16.180 like yourself.

00:17:17.340 Something about Dave's comedy seems to suggest 0.65

00:17:20.540 that LGBT, the LG, it's like that book, all the women are white, all the men are black, right? 1.00

00:17:26.840 Like all the LGBTQ folks are just default white. All of the black folks are default cis. And it's 0.94

00:17:33.280 like, it completely erases that people exist at those intersections in a way that I feel like

00:17:38.360 it's so like 1997, like, like get your, get your attitudes and your ideas into 2021, you know?

00:17:46.380 exactly exactly and a simple fact is you know i think it was timed like three or four years ago

00:17:52.280 they were talking about what the future of the world's going to look like and all those people

00:17:56.640 had melanin okay right like that's i mean let's just be truthful the way that the world is actually

00:18:02.700 changing the way that it's actually evolving i mean even gen z such a large percentage of gen z

00:18:08.580 around the world is completely open to not only lgbtq plus people but they're coming out

00:18:14.520 increasingly earlier right so you know you have like you know 8 9 10 11 12 15 16 you know year

00:18:21.400 old come out and say yeah i'm a part of the lgbtq plus community which is not something that has

00:18:25.520 ever happened before the world is changing rapidly right and so the fact that we continue to have

00:18:31.620 these like very antiquated conversations is just very disturbing to me and is a sign of how some

00:18:37.760 people are like this is why you have to be thoughtful and you have to listen right like i

00:18:42.720 am now considered an elder like because you know i'm over a certain age i'm an elder now right in

00:18:48.660 my community because in the trans community most like so there's been a statistic that says that

00:18:54.240 many black trans people do not make it to the age of 35 i am not over 35 so i'm like a grandparent

00:19:00.040 like that's how that's how they perceive me and it's just so interesting to me because even for me

00:19:05.500 i have to take a step back and listen to the younger people because they're like you're more

00:19:09.840 conservative than I am. And I was like, oh, I guess I am, right? Because I grew up in a completely

00:19:15.100 different generation. I came out much later because I was afraid. And you don't have that

00:19:19.860 fear mechanism that keeps you from being your whole self. And I actually admire you. What do

00:19:24.660 you need me to help you with? Because you're so much further along than I was. And all I'm trying

00:19:29.520 to do is make sure that you have a safe place to live. That's beautiful. First of all, I would have

00:19:34.440 never thought you were over 35 but that's so beautiful you know so this is that's black 0.73

00:19:40.100 it's so true let's take a quick break

00:19:46.520 the new red bull dragon berry and tropic berry energizers now at mcdonald's made with freeze

00:19:59.980 dried fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's

00:20:07.740 this product may not be right for you high in caffeine details at mcdonald's.ca at participating

00:20:11.460 canadian restaurants excluding quebec run a business and not thinking about podcasting

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00:20:43.700 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:20:49.620 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:20:54.000 part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives,

00:20:57.400 and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:21:02.080 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:21:05.780 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:21:09.040 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed, so obsessed.

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00:21:35.800 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:21:41.740 See you between the pages.

00:21:42.920 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:21:49.720 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:21:56.080 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:21:59.780 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.99

00:22:05.200 Shut up. Don't say anything. 0.99

00:22:07.960 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

00:22:12.040 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:22:17.000 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:22:24.420 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:22:28.360 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:22:31.820 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:22:34.940 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:22:45.720 There Are No Girls on the Internet is doing a live show on May 28th at Caveat in New York City and virtually from wherever you're at.

00:22:53.280 We'll have amazing guests, a meet and greet, and much, much more.

00:22:56.360 Go to tangody.com slash live and get your tickets, and I cannot wait to see you there.

00:23:00.060 And we're back

00:23:05.000 In 1987, Eddie Murphy released his stand-up special, Eddie Murphy Raw

00:23:10.120 And Murphy has this whole bit about how gay people didn't like his homophobic jokes

00:23:14.260 And how whenever he goes out to parties or out on the town 0.93

00:23:16.840 He feels like there's going to be a gay mob out looking for him 0.84

00:23:20.160 Only, he doesn't say gay people, he uses a slur 1.00

00:23:23.220 And there won't be no siren, there'll be a real fag sitting on the roof going 1.00

00:23:25.980 Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo 1.00

00:23:28.220 Now, something about this line, the idea of a gay person strapped to the top of a car as a siren, really stuck with me. 1.00

00:23:35.700 And the takeaway for me when I was watching was that gay people are basically less than human and that pointing this out is funny. 1.00

00:23:43.740 I mean, like, listen to this crowd. They were loving it. 1.00

00:23:47.160 And I interpreted that making fun of gay people was a clear pathway to acceptance from others.

00:23:52.580 Now, I was watching this when I was just a kid.

00:23:54.520 I'd already known that something was up with me,

00:23:56.540 but I had not yet come to terms with being a queer person.

00:23:59.800 And I watched the way that these kinds of jokes about gay people

00:24:02.720 got Eddie Murphy so much loud, clear acceptance from other Black people.

00:24:06.960 And it was confusing to me at a time when I was already really confused.

00:24:11.600 In 2019, Eddie Murphy actually revisited his past homophobic comedy routines.

00:24:16.480 In an interview with the New York Times,

00:24:17.740 he said that he looks back at all those old jokes in cringes.

00:24:21.220 I was a young guy processing a broken heart 1.00

00:24:23.280 And kind of an asshole, he said. 1.00

00:24:25.700 He apologized for spreading homophobia and ignorant comments about HIV, 1.00

00:24:29.440 saying that he's much more educated now.

00:24:31.880 I now have a whole lifetime of experiences to draw upon.

00:24:35.240 There was a time when I was at the center of everything,

00:24:37.660 what I was doing and how funny I was and how popular I was.

00:24:40.640 I'm not the center anymore, he said.

00:24:43.180 Now instead of railing against being canceled by the PC police,

00:24:46.900 he reflected. He evolved.

00:24:49.600 There's this attitude I've heard over and over again

00:24:51.880 that what a comedian says on stage is just a joke.

00:24:54.960 It doesn't have any real-world impact.

00:24:56.920 Now, there are scores of studies that suggest otherwise.

00:25:00.060 And Bea puts it another way.

00:25:01.520 If someone is starting out from a place

00:25:03.500 where many of the messages around them

00:25:05.280 are telling them that they aren't even a full person,

00:25:07.800 adding to that chorus makes things that much harder.

00:25:11.280 Something that I'm kind of almost sick of hearing

00:25:14.660 is this idea that, like, oh, it's just jokes, it's just jokes.

00:25:17.920 I'm sure I don't need to tell you that.

00:25:19.100 Study after study after study has shown, you know,

00:25:21.440 a direct correlation between transphobic rhetoric and anti-trans violence and so you know what do

00:25:26.880 you say to people who are like oh comedy specials don't translate to real world harm like like what

00:25:32.880 do you probably i know that i have heard that argument over and over again like what do we say

00:25:37.140 to stuff like that so first of all we know that's not 100 true because if that was not if that was

00:25:43.420 true then a five-year-old graduated our movie right like we know that the content on the screen

00:25:51.040 impacts people. Now, the thing is, is that that doesn't mean that like today, after they watch

00:25:56.780 the special, they're going to go out and beat up someone who's trans. But that does mean that 0.67

00:26:01.600 someone is forming an opinion about trans people based on the content that they're seeing,

00:26:05.740 and that they could be discriminatory towards trans people, or they could be violent towards

00:26:10.000 trans people later. We also know that the content that exists on the stream also internally impacts

00:26:16.180 the people who are the target of that content right so like you know we also think about self

00:26:22.600 harm if you're seeing this type of content if you're seeing people talk about this in this type

00:26:28.260 of dialogue and you already are in a place where you're not a whole person right you know i was

00:26:34.440 when i first started out i used to tell people you know naturally i am i wake up every day with

00:26:41.120 my glass half empty, right? I'm a diverse person. I'm a multi-diverse person. And so I hear

00:26:48.020 constantly, whether it's about me being Black and potentially being less than, whether it's about

00:26:53.480 me being non-male and somehow not being strong, whether it's about me being trans and my

00:26:58.620 differentness there, whether it's about me, you know, being married to a woman and how different

00:27:03.760 that is, you know, what it's like about me being married to a white woman and how I've betrayed

00:27:08.820 my race. Like all of these things are coming through constantly. And so when you put out

00:27:15.520 this content, all it's doing is trying to diminish the little bit that's in that glass,

00:27:20.080 right? The little bit of hope in the dreams there. I'm very fortunate because I have an amazing

00:27:27.120 support system and I have an amazing amount of education and fiscal ability because I've been

00:27:36.000 so successful in technology for so long that I've been able to fill that glass back up to almost

00:27:41.140 full. But many people cannot. And so when you think about this content, all it's doing is

00:27:47.220 diminishing the potential of those people. And then we lose out on that potential. Like as a

00:27:53.680 society, we are literally losing out on bright lights who could help change this world because

00:27:59.480 of the content we're choosing to pursue out there without also making sure that we put out affirming

00:28:05.740 content too how hard is it to make another pose really pose was pretty cheap it was really cheap

00:28:14.060 you know we could make like five poses and people would be so happy that's such a good point and I

00:28:20.800 think it takes me it takes me to this idea that it's obviously bullshit but this idea that oh

00:28:25.620 these Netflix staffers they want to cancel Dave Chappelle but when you actually look at the demands 0.88

00:28:31.060 that staffers were putting forth at Netflix,

00:28:33.760 it's stuff like, you know,

00:28:35.260 can we invest in a comparable way

00:28:38.060 for trans and gender nonconforming

00:28:40.380 and non-binary creators?

00:28:41.940 You know, can we elevate like trans content

00:28:45.520 like the Disclosure documentary, which I love?

00:28:47.660 You know, can we promote that on the platform?

00:28:50.340 It is such common sense things.

00:28:53.260 And yet it gets sort of, I don't know,

00:28:56.360 telephoned into, they want to cancel Dave Chappelle.

00:28:59.200 And I guess my question is, how do we combat this idea when there are so many people who are just hell bent on believing the absolute worst about the intentions here?

00:29:10.580 Because when you actually look at the demands, it's just like what you're saying, like, invest in trans and gender nonconforming creators, and that will actually improve the platform.

00:29:20.080 Netflix will be better for it.

00:29:21.780 And yet that gets sort of mistranslated into something that's just completely not true.

00:29:26.520 I mean, Oprah said it best.

00:29:29.200 Oprah was just like, there's just some people you're not going to convince, right? You're just not going to convince. That's not the people we're trying to convince. We're trying to find that middle ground of people, the middle ground of people who are still trying to learn to be educated, who just want to know more. And so that's the main thing I'm focusing on, right?

00:29:48.920 the reason I've agreed to go on these podcasts and things like that is to spread this message

00:29:53.220 because the people who listen to you the people who are looking at the op-ed those people are

00:29:58.100 the ones who still have that ability to be swayed and the thing about that is if we sway a few of

00:30:03.760 those people they're also related to some other people right and so hopefully they'll go in and

00:30:09.100 say hey I want to hear that today right and and also this new thing hopefully if you know Netflix

00:30:18.240 moves forward with meeting some of these demands there'll be a new piece of content out there at

00:30:22.920 some point that they watch that has a trans character that they love just because it's a good

00:30:26.920 show and then eventually that'll work out like this is a long term this is a marathon this is

00:30:34.220 not a short-term thing we're not going to change everyone's mind short term and the thing is we

00:30:38.520 shouldn't if it was that easy to change people's minds wouldn't be such hard work right when you

00:30:43.720 think about you know the other day whoopi goldberg was talking about the civil rights movement and

00:30:47.640 She was talking about the fact that if we had waited for people to change their mind on the value of Black people, Black people still wouldn't have the right to vote today.

00:30:57.460 And I feel as though this is the same exact conversation.

00:31:00.700 The same exact conversation that, you know, there's still so much movement we have to do for trans people, for Black people, for women, for Latinx people, for Asian people.

00:31:11.340 this is a non-stop marathon to have diverse people be seen as equal and have the equity

00:31:19.760 they deserve in this country the conditions that you are creating i think can create change that

00:31:24.740 is lasting that is meaningful that is that reverberates it is it does not begin and end

00:31:29.600 with dave chappelle's funky special like this is a movement that has that has long longer term

00:31:35.680 longevity. And I've just like loved to see that. And I feel like in every statement and, you know,

00:31:41.640 thing that the staffers have put out, that's been so salient to me. So I've just like loved to see

00:31:46.580 that so much. You know, one of the things that I, it's kind of a personal pet peeve of mine.

00:31:53.560 So many of the people that I talked to on this podcast, you know, they are marginalized people.

00:31:58.300 They are historically underrepresented people. They work in tech companies, tech platforms.

00:32:02.040 They are the ones who are putting in all this hard work of making these companies and these

00:32:06.040 platforms look progressive or woke or with it. Now, internally, they might be ostracized for

00:32:12.680 this work. They might be punished for this work. They might be fired for this work.

00:32:16.640 But the companies are super okay with taking credit for it and being like, yeah, we're a

00:32:21.700 woke company. We're so progressive. Yeah, all of that. Do you feel like that's sort of happening

00:32:27.360 here that it is staffers who are already marginalized, who are making, like, giving

00:32:33.180 Netflix the shine to be like, oh, we are with it, woke, progressive, new, fresh, all of that,

00:32:39.420 but also behind the scenes punishing those same staffers? You know, the one thing I will say is

00:32:45.280 that there had been an internal movement before I was let go to start rewarding people who work

00:32:51.320 with ERGs financially, right, you know, to take that into account for their review. And it was

00:32:57.380 the first time I'd ever been at a company that had actually had that conversation. But I will say

00:33:02.220 that this is thankless work typically, right? You know, you're doing all this work to create an

00:33:07.620 environment that's great, that makes the company look great. And a lot of people don't really see

00:33:13.020 that as a part of your work. And so that's something that needs to change, right? Because

00:33:18.440 ERG work not only does it you know help the company see what's going wrong but it also helps

00:33:25.800 retain talent I can't tell you how many times I was asked to participate in something whether it

00:33:33.760 was you know trans star or black at that helped make sure that a person didn't leave Netflix

00:33:38.220 right because I was able to help negotiate and explain to people what was going on

00:33:43.320 you know when it came to the company culture making sure that they understood where the

00:33:47.300 culture had issues. You know, that type of work is super, super important. And it also is something

00:33:53.140 that, you know, it's invaluable, right? It's invaluable. There's no way to calculate how much

00:34:00.440 that does for the company. And so I do think that this is something companies really need to think

00:34:06.300 about is how do you figure out what that value is? Because it is a differentiator between you

00:34:12.860 retaining someone and not retaining someone? People want to work at companies where they

00:34:17.500 feel respected and safe. And I think that, like, that is a conversation that I feel like it's easy

00:34:23.000 to be missed in this particular situation is that, like, it doesn't surprise me that people

00:34:27.800 are not necessarily feeling respected, listened to, seen, heard, valued, safe. And I feel like

00:34:32.960 these days people are unwilling to attach themselves to companies that do not respect

00:34:36.300 them. And I think that's great. But people want to feel respected in their workplaces. And,

00:34:41.580 And, you know, I saw that statement that the CEO of Netflix put out where he was like, oh, you know, I handled this badly, all of that.

00:34:49.800 But not seeing the way that that trickles down to the staff, the at-the-top decisions make people feel so disrespected and unseen and unheard and unvalued.

00:35:00.140 And how there are people like yourself who are going in and plugging those leaks and doing the work of doing some recon and saying, like, you know, are you thinking about leaving?

00:35:08.680 How are you feeling?

00:35:09.380 like talk to me about where you're at where your where your head is at all of that you know that

00:35:12.700 is valuable work yeah and not only that but also his apology which I will say is not an apology

00:35:19.700 said like one of them was like oh it's because we've been working from home they forgot how

00:35:25.760 good they have it and I was like that's what an abusive relationship said yeah like I didn't hit

00:35:30.000 you today so that you should appreciate me and I'm just like but you hit me the other day like

00:35:35.100 I don't like it doesn't work like that so yeah no I definitely feel like you know it missed the

00:35:39.460 mark right because it really is more about how do you show up right you know folks ask me like

00:35:49.000 what should those emails those first memos or emails should have said and I said it's very

00:35:53.840 simple it should have said hey we dropped the ball on this one we should have done a better job

00:35:59.780 let's talk and that's three sentences his actual memo was like two pages but it's two pages to say

00:36:06.820 nothing exactly and so like that's the thing apologies are just apologies like you don't

00:36:11.740 have to like you don't have it doesn't have to be convoluted you don't have to justify yourself

00:36:15.600 it is apologize have a conversation figure out corrective action don't do it

00:36:21.200 more after a quick break

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00:37:19.720 That's iHeartAdvertising.com. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to

00:37:25.140 your personality welcome home this is prose society the weekly podcast that's part book club

00:37:32.420 part group chat for thought daughters pop culture obsessives and anyone who thinks pride and

00:37:37.040 prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse i'm eli rallo and every week we're

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00:38:15.320 on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts see you between the pages

00:38:22.700 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:38:28.100 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:38:34.480 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:38:38.180 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.99

00:38:43.300 Shut up. Don't say anything. 0.99

00:38:46.620 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

00:38:50.800 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:38:55.260 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:39:02.860 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:39:06.780 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:39:10.220 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:39:13.340 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:39:26.960 Let's get right back into it.

00:39:29.040 I saw that Dave Chappelle said that he'd be willing to meet with Netflix staffers.

00:39:33.160 That no longer includes you because Netflix fired you, unfortunately.

00:39:37.840 Do you think that that would be, like, would you be willing to meet with him?

00:39:41.340 do you feel like that would be fruitful or productive or would that be like is that just

00:39:44.440 like not even where your head is at I mean I would totally meet with him the whole point of this is

00:39:49.260 to educate people right and Dave says that he cares right like so that's some part of his

00:39:55.940 statements too he's like this this isn't me versus them you know this is about you know other things

00:40:01.760 and so I would be glad to meet with him and also I don't have to be there I could also you know if

00:40:07.200 he wants to reach out I can help him connect with the Netflix people as well because this is

00:40:11.120 about me right this is about the work and making sure this work gets done um and i i hope that he

00:40:17.480 would actually listen and actually i think he had mentioned recently he was you know he said

00:40:22.720 something like but you have to have watched the special and i'm like we like we all have either

00:40:26.860 read the transcript or watched the special so we've already done all of our homework i would

00:40:31.180 ask him to look up what turf ideology actually means um and also understand a little bit more

00:40:37.300 about transgender biology, you know,

00:40:41.480 just so we can actually start off

00:40:42.760 on the same playing field

00:40:43.760 in terms of, you know,

00:40:45.020 what we're talking about.

00:40:46.300 But other than that, let's go for it.

00:40:49.120 In the piece that I read on your blog,

00:40:50.580 you referenced this like really famous Baldwin quote,

00:40:54.500 to be a Negro in this country

00:40:55.740 is to be relatively conscious

00:40:57.360 and to be relatively conscious

00:40:58.460 is to be in a rage most of the time.

00:41:00.740 And you kind of had your own spin on it.

00:41:02.020 You said, to be a Black trans person in America

00:41:04.400 is a study in courage

00:41:05.760 and a fierce desire to not be forgotten. 0.97

00:41:08.760 And so it just seems like Black trans folks

00:41:12.180 are so easily erased and forgotten, 0.71

00:41:14.680 not just in this conversation, but everywhere.

00:41:17.300 And y'all have always been here.

00:41:19.420 Y'all are part of our history.

00:41:20.640 And I guess I wonder, do you find yourself feeling

00:41:23.320 like you have to constantly create these monuments

00:41:26.360 to your existence so that it doesn't get erased?

00:41:28.620 And not just monuments to your existence, 0.71

00:41:30.620 but this idea that Black trans existence

00:41:34.300 is more than just like trauma and pain making making sure that there's room for black trans joy

00:41:39.340 black trans dreams black trans brilliance like how do we build monuments to all to

00:41:44.780 the 360 degrees that is black transness yeah you know it's so funny i was talking to my cousin

00:41:52.300 because you know my cousin he he was talking about you know the special and um how it didn't

00:41:58.700 hit for him and we started talking about black trans people and on you know trans native

00:42:04.820 remembrance the majority of the names that's going to be read out as people have been killed 0.86

00:42:08.240 this year are black trans people and it's so interesting because those people are just the

00:42:13.560 people we know about those are the people who had someone who advocated for them who said this person

00:42:20.580 was a black person this person was a trans person because many people don't have legal name changes

00:42:27.800 like they don't have any they don't have people who are affirming of their identity

00:42:32.240 um to to represent their story in fact i was telling my cousin that i'm so fortunate because

00:42:38.520 like my legal name is b like this is the name i chose my documents show that i'm a trans person

00:42:44.280 there's an entire reflection now in the zeit the zeitgeist that says that i am d so no one can take

00:42:51.720 my story from me right no one can take my story from me and so that is the point is the fact that

00:42:58.540 so many people live these amazing colorful beautiful lives that are cut short and because

00:43:05.580 of the fact that as a society we're not quite where we need to be to understand and be respectful

00:43:11.460 of that identity right it's actually really funny because people talk about that you should have

00:43:16.260 privacy in your home but what we actually talk about like what we actually see for black trans 0.54

00:43:21.060 people is that as soon as you die your privacy goes away you become a part of the public conversation 0.72

00:43:26.160 and they choose who you are and so that's the thing about all of this this is about choice

00:43:32.060 it's like why do we choose to harm why do we choose to defame why do we choose to let people

00:43:38.500 be forgotten when we know they existed and they should be honored as such

00:43:43.660 and so that is the real core piece of this and so it's an increasingly frustrating thing for me

00:43:49.860 because even you know there's a young man from Mississippi who was killed

00:43:55.180 recently and his entire family misgendered him and it's his family it's

00:44:01.140 his chosen family who has done this work to get out the message of who he was

00:44:05.220 and I just think it's someone else from Mississippi who is just so fortunate

00:44:10.200 that I get to control my story I mean it's like it was Hamilton who will tell

00:44:13.600 your story if Hamilton's wife wasn't so bomb who knows what we would know about

00:44:17.540 about Alexander Hamilton, right?

00:44:20.060 Like, you know, that's the thing that's crazy about this.

00:44:22.880 That's beautiful.

00:44:24.280 B, where can folks support you,

00:44:27.640 support Black trans folks more broadly,

00:44:30.500 and what should folks do to support the Netflix staffers

00:44:33.080 who are continuing to speak out?

00:44:35.940 So first and foremost for the Netflix staffers,

00:44:37.980 continue to spread the message

00:44:39.460 about what's really been asked for.

00:44:41.460 So if you look at Twitter,

00:44:43.980 there's a trans at Netflix Twitter handle.

00:44:46.540 And so the asks are there.

00:44:48.240 Continue to share those asks

00:44:49.480 so that people can understand

00:44:50.820 what the real ask is here. 0.98

00:44:53.340 Two, watch trans things. 1.00

00:44:56.340 So Disclosure Documentary is great. 0.96

00:44:59.300 Also watch Pose because Pose really...

00:45:02.080 So as a young Black trans person coming up,

00:45:06.180 Pose actually definitely represents

00:45:07.840 a lot of my communities that I first met

00:45:09.980 and who helped me become cool

00:45:12.260 because I was a dork. 0.51

00:45:13.520 So I think that's really great. 0.91

00:45:14.800 to support Black trans content, especially Pose, too.

00:45:19.060 And then for just generally, this is just the beginning, right?

00:45:24.020 So this is just the beginning.

00:45:24.900 So there's a lot of organizations out there.

00:45:26.560 So Trans Lifeline is a great organization.

00:45:28.740 Howard Brown Health in Chicago is one of the premier institutions treating trans folks

00:45:33.300 and doing research on trans folks.

00:45:35.380 The Transgender Law Center is also an amazing place to support, too.

00:45:39.500 They're doing really, really great work.

00:45:41.360 GLAAD is a great place to support because they're trying to help

00:45:43.820 talk about this media representation and change that. And then for me, I'm the Pagels minor

00:45:49.280 everywhere. Follow me on Twitter, you know, because that's really where I post a lot of

00:45:54.180 content that I find that I think is very interesting. They can help people understand

00:45:58.420 a little bit more context as well. But first and foremost, educate yourself. You know, if there's

00:46:04.100 a curiosity that you have that you don't really know what's going on, chances are there's a

00:46:08.060 document, there's someone who's tweeting about, there's someone who can help give you that context

00:46:12.960 so that you can feel more comfortable.

00:46:15.280 Because like, you know, this is a long journey.

00:46:17.340 Like, you know, it's definitely not something

00:46:18.780 that you figure out overnight.

00:46:21.640 Okay, I actually have one last curveball question for you.

00:46:25.100 You strike me as someone who likes movies,

00:46:27.400 likes TV, likes music.

00:46:29.120 Do you remember a time when a piece of media

00:46:31.600 or a piece of content or a piece of art

00:46:33.480 made you feel seen and affirmed?

00:46:36.660 Pose is a great example of something for me

00:46:38.700 where I cried when I first saw it.

00:46:40.920 Like, I could not believe that those were the, like, the drag shows, the ballroom. I was just like, this is literally what I first got exposed to, right? So this is before I came out as trans, because, like, I refused to acknowledge the fact that I was trans.

00:46:58.620 and I was in Memphis Tennessee I was home from college and my mother my mother of all people

00:47:05.080 took me to the club to see a drag show because she was just like I feel like you need to see

00:47:11.320 this I was like mommas know they know they know and so like I ended up going to this drag show

00:47:17.160 with my mother which was really bomb and I met a bunch of like a bunch of like the drag community

00:47:22.620 you know who are also trans and so some of the first things imposed like literally feel like

00:47:28.560 they were exactly the exact same thing from when i first came out or when i first started to

00:47:33.820 discover that maybe i might be different and so that's a huge thing and the second example which

00:47:39.140 is like really strange and i don't know why i feel this way about this but the second example

00:47:45.240 is purple rain so i think it's because of princess androgyny and so like i kind of felt like you know

00:47:53.380 i was like i felt a little seen and also it was so complicated right because he was like this

00:47:58.120 brilliant artist but he's also so like messed up and like i just felt like i just really got it

00:48:02.840 because like i just yeah and so i i mean i watched i re-watched that movie like probably multiple

00:48:07.640 times a year and the whole soundtrack is like that's my soundtrack if i'm in a mood i gotta i

00:48:12.680 gotta listen to that soundtrack so b you are you have no idea if i could turn you around and show

00:48:18.200 you all the different prince iconography in my apartment purple rain is my thing prince is my

00:48:23.560 thing and again like it prince was someone who made me feel seen especially in the black community

00:48:29.260 because you know I grew up in the south and I grew up with my uncles making gay jokes and using

00:48:35.060 slurs and everybody liked prince like it didn't like even though there was like prince was 0.98

00:48:39.960 androgynous even though prince was like my as my uncles would say fruity people fucked with prince 0.96

00:48:45.540 and so to see the power that he had in our community was it was intoxicating I completely 0.98

00:48:52.320 feel you on the prince completely feel you and you know and he could get anybody he wanted man

00:48:58.320 woman like anybody in the whole world i'm pretty sure prince could walk into a room and just look

00:49:04.200 at you you'd be like i okay where we gonna go yeah i think that's the other part of it is that

00:49:09.280 it just completely redefined what masculinity what femininity what everything was and i think

00:49:14.280 that that's one of those things that he probably did more work for so many different types of

00:49:20.700 people than almost any other artist and he wasn't trying to not a woman not a man something you'll

00:49:27.400 never understand the power of art the power of representation the power of art the power of

00:49:33.480 creativity it's it's unmatched if you're looking for ways to support the show check out our merch

00:49:43.080 store at tangoti.com store got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi

00:49:49.220 You can reach us at hello at tangody.com.

00:49:52.080 You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangody.com.

00:49:55.400 There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

00:49:58.100 It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:50:00.740 Edited by Joey Pat.

00:50:02.600 Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

00:50:04.820 Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

00:50:07.420 Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

00:50:09.460 I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

00:50:10.840 If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts.

00:50:14.260 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

00:50:17.340 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

There Are No Girls on the Internet - May 20, 2022

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