00:04:23.180We talked about the book, the discourse, and what all of it says about feminist writing, parasocial fandom, and whether the personal essay industrial complex of the 2010s has finally run its course.
00:04:39.320Ashley Ray of the Substack Deep Trouble, thank you for being here.
00:04:44.340Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan of the pod. I'm so happy to be back.
00:04:48.740I want to say up top, this might be a little bit of a different episode.
00:04:53.660Usually when I have somebody with expertise like yourself,
00:04:57.400I'm like interviewing them about something to get their thoughts on something.
00:05:00.720Really, I have been reading about the Lindy West book for the last week.
00:05:05.300I've been listening to podcasts about it, reading articles about it.
00:05:07.740And I'm just to the point where my friends are like,
00:05:11.060find someone else to talk about this with.
00:05:14.640And I just want to talk about it on the podcast.
00:05:17.460Yeah, same. Even like my 72-year-old mom, I've just been like, look, you don't know Lindy West. And she's just like, is this girl your friend? And I'm like, no, no, she just wrote a book, but you need to hear every detail.
00:05:30.820it's interesting how the book lindy the relationship has taken over the internet
00:05:37.480every platform threads twitter blue sky everyone is talking about it i don't think
00:05:44.140substack obviously i don't think i've seen just sort of like a monoculture moment like this around
00:05:50.640a book in a long time so i think that's part of what's exciting about this is that you know as
00:05:56.100literary people we love some lit drama and it's full of it you know her uh husband's sister is
00:06:04.900also a famous writer they're in communication with all these other writers it went from just
00:06:10.100being a book to like her husband sending emails to another very gifted author and it just became
00:06:16.020like a huge thing that has spiraled out of control and now there are people saying that this is a0.98
00:06:22.600signal that millennial feminism is dead other people who are like it's the end of white feminism
00:06:28.860it's just become such a thing that means so much to so many people and at the center of it it's
00:06:34.280like it's just a book about a woman finding something she didn't think she'd like
00:06:40.520but and realizing she kind of liked it like and and also she's very honest about it not being
00:06:48.180perfect in some ways but then there are these frustrating ways where she still sort of pushes
00:06:53.880herself and life in the narrative as happy and very progressive and as you know basically a happy
00:07:01.760ending and a got you moment for the trolls and haters to say you know you might think i don't
00:07:08.020deserve this happy ending and this is me settling but it's not uh and then it's also her trying to
00:07:13.940placate fans because she came up at this like 2010 writer era where, you know, you were a writer and
00:07:20.740a hero to your fans and readers. They felt like you owed them something. And as a leader in the
00:07:25.380body positivity movement, and she writes about this, you know, she felt people would come to
00:07:30.160her and say, I realized I could love myself because of you. I could, I could have what I
00:07:34.280wanted because of you. And when she would lose weight, people would get upset with her. So that1.00
00:07:39.460becomes a part of the expectations of the relationship where she has to have a happy
00:07:44.140ending with her husband aham because if she doesn't she's letting these people down they
00:07:48.460won't know that they can have a happy ending and so that's why shrill ends with such a happy ending
00:07:53.380and adult races goes actually that was all a lie i thought you all needed a happy ending
00:07:58.880but now i'm not lying when i give you a happy ending i get now i'm telling and it's kind of
00:08:05.400like, girl, I think you might be lying to give us the happy ending again. So it's just because of
00:08:10.800all of this has taken off in so many directions. And to Lindy West's credit, it takes, you know,
00:08:16.500talented writing, talented storytelling to get people this engaged and involved.
00:08:21.840I'm on a polyamorous relationship from Seattle. Like, how is that even surprising?
00:08:26.540it really is a throwback to a certain kind of at least for me low stakes internet writer
00:08:37.040culture drama that we haven't really had a lot of that in the last few years yeah in a while
00:08:42.160you know I think a lot of us have smartened up I think when Lindy came up it was the time of the
00:08:50.720bleed on the internet and make a name for yourself era where you wrote a piece for Jezebel or
00:08:56.780whatever sharing your deepest sexual deepest darkest shame and that was a way to talk about
00:09:04.800issues that were really relevant you know that's not to say that what Lindy was writing about you
00:09:08.360know wasn't relevant but it was something that encouraged a parasocial readership right it's
00:09:14.100like everyone should be able to write about their life pull from their life write memoir but it
00:09:19.320extending onto social media in a new way than you know ever before really it extending onto social
00:09:24.800media it extending you know into the way people understand and represent their politics right it's
00:09:30.540like do you support Lindy West you can't just be a fan it's like oh but are you a feminist if you
00:09:35.500don't like Lindy West like it becomes more and I think just that coming of age of that time as a
00:09:41.600writer it seemed like that sucked I'm a little younger than her to me I was like oh gosh I don't
00:09:48.100want to have to like owe a bunch of fans something because they think that my body is their property
00:09:54.200because they like read a book I wrote you know I kind of was able to learn from that so I think
00:09:59.420my generation you know we weren't as willing to write for digital blogs like like Exo Jane and
00:10:05.140Jezebel just to kind of have that moment um so when we see such naked kind of sharing like we
00:10:12.720are saying in adult braces it does feel like a throwback to that I think people are kind of
00:10:16.900shock she is so just raw with a lot in it like she is talking about the negatives I'm cheating
00:10:22.900not just on her but on their other partner in the middle of the book she reveals that actually he
00:10:27.660was seeing two other women not just one uh and you know so it is written in a way where we're
00:10:34.040not just supposed to be like oh this is great she was unquestioning and supportive the whole time
00:10:38.760we are going on a very dark journey with Lindy so I think that's kind of you know making people go
00:10:45.200whoa this this writer is being so real but also this means that feminism of the 2010s was a lie
00:10:52.720and it's just like okay it doesn't have to mean all of that let's all just take a breath yeah
00:10:59.080yeah I'm really glad that you mentioned the the sort of age that you came of age and I very much
00:11:06.620came of age in the Lindy West streets you know I think I kind of came of age as a feminist in that
00:11:13.920very particular moment in the 2010s and I subsequently I do have a deep reverence for
00:11:19.140Lindy West's writing because back then that did have cultural cachet and cultural capital and
00:11:25.360political capital I remember the era of XO Jane they used to call it the personal essay industrial
00:11:34.020complex I remember a very a very specific personal essay that somebody wrote about a hairball that0.57
00:11:41.640got stuck in their vagina being the being the specific essay where folks were like we've hit0.59
00:11:47.520peak personal essay personal essay there's nothing else we can do here i was writing on the internet0.99
00:11:54.640in that in those days and you're so right that the expectation was you would write something
00:12:00.480and i was never as successful as lindy west obviously but like the expectation was that
00:12:04.960you wanted to be a feminist voice online you would write something incredibly personal about your0.86
00:12:11.500body your sex life your upbringing these personal parts of yourself you would put it on a blog like
00:12:16.940exo jane you would maybe you would get fifty dollars for writing that like the compensation
00:12:22.820was very low but there was this feeling that maybe that could turn into a book deal or a show
00:12:28.460you could make you could build up your your cultural cachet and i just gotta wonder if the
00:12:34.040moment if that moment has come and passed i think absolutely we're more critical we're more skeptical
00:12:41.580I think that we're, I don't want to say oversharing,
00:12:44.820but I think that level of opening up like that on the page,
00:12:52.620I think folks are a lot less forgiving.
00:12:55.140And I think that we equate that a lot less with honest writing.
00:12:59.820Back in the 2010s, we just didn't have a lot of women who were writing that way.
00:13:02.720So if you wrote openly and honestly about your body, your sex life, all of this,
00:13:06.540it automatically gave it a kind of gravitas that I think we're I think it's like the culture has
00:13:12.460moved a little bit past that yeah what do you think about now absolutely we're now it's like0.94
00:13:16.720it isn't shocking or surprising to hear a woman talk about farting and poop it's like yeah okay0.85
00:13:23.460it's yeah it's not that up to date and that is a kind of the issue with adult braces is that it0.99
00:13:30.260does still feel like it's stuck in that 2010s era you know I would say the biggest sign we've all
00:13:35.300moved on is if the cut were to ask me to write a personal essay today I would go why do you want
00:13:42.420to destroy my life I would be like what I'd be like no no this is a trap like it's so clear now
00:13:50.280that that is done to feed the attention economy and I think younger people who have grown up in
00:13:56.140that economy who see every part of their lives you know recorded put online where they're just
00:14:01.880afraid to even go out because if they do something and someone else notices it they could end up as
00:14:06.540a theme in a twitter thread or something and they don't even know that like they're a character of
00:14:11.700the day on online and i think because of that people are so much more careful with their privacy
00:14:18.440uh and so i think this book does feel like it's still stuck in that 2010s era where it wants to
00:14:28.440be like you know it wants to present itself as very raw open honest but really we all feel it
00:14:35.740in that way where it's presenting a narrative right where it's like this isn't raw open honest
00:14:40.780this isn't something where like a wife is on so on tiktok telling the story tale of like how her
00:14:47.700marriage broke down this is a narrative that you've crafted of how you're viewing this because
00:14:53.260you want to sell that to your fans you want to sell and i told you so to your trolls and you
00:14:59.260want to again like shrills present a story you know this could turn into a book or this could
00:15:04.800turn into a movie this could turn into a tv show we're already like what's the next book going to
00:15:09.420be is it going to be her divorce and in an interview with slate she says you know i need
00:15:13.600this book to to like float us for a while so i think now the nakedness of that being for you know
00:15:21.280like you said the just sort of cultural tension to get your name out there I think now that is so
00:15:26.980raw like just so clear that people can't relate to it in a way where it's like oh this is raw
00:15:32.380honesty like oh you know I am learning something about her it just feels just kind of like a
00:15:40.100gimmick of it you know even with the polyamory even again with her talking about sort of body
00:15:46.180issues in the book it all just kind of feels a bit gimmicky because it is so wrapped up in her
00:15:52.720husband and it's like why is this person who was sort of upheld as a feminist writer the 2010s
00:15:58.660telling us that you know actually she was able to fix her body issues by starting a sub-dom0.97
00:16:05.580relationship with her husband that is a whole other story you know I think people are also
00:16:12.340getting lost in the polyamory of it all. There's so much more that, you know, just feels very out
00:16:17.920of touch with sort of where I think younger feminists are today, where a lot of those0.96
00:16:23.940narratives that Lindy hears in her head don't really resonate for them. Let's take a quick break.1.00
00:16:38.120Behind every night spent making the kids lunches, there's a lot of suspense.
00:20:52.020If you have not read the book or read anything about it, from listening to us talk,
00:20:56.220you might think that the entirety of the book is about her marriage and like her journey to
00:21:02.820embracing polyamory and all of that but her book there's so much more in the book right it's about
00:21:07.140her relationship to her body it's also very much a travel log yeah and very much about her parents
00:21:12.480um you know i'll give a quick little summary but uh the book starts in the aftermath of where0.94
00:21:18.900shrill left us basically shrill tells us she she has this big happy beautiful fat wedding uh
00:21:25.200everyone is happy. The saddest thing is, you know, her dad has just died, but at least this is her
00:21:29.660new life now. Uh, and then adult braces starts with, so actually that was all a facade, uh,
00:21:37.240after my father passed, that was why Aham came back to my life, uh, because, you know, he saw
00:21:42.760that I was so depressed, uh, and decided we could be back together, but only if we can have an open0.84
00:21:50.000relationship and open marriage uh and it is basically an ultimatum that that um presents
00:21:57.320uh it is basically if you want me back and you want to get married it has to be an open marriage
00:22:03.060his explanation is that monogamy not marriage because they do get married monogamy is akin to0.62
00:22:12.220slavery and ownership and that is why he cannot be monogamous because it is basically her white
00:22:20.780ownership of his body marriage is fine as long as you know on paper i can like claim you on my taxes0.99
00:22:27.460or something but but actual monogamy within that marriage is slavery and lindy basically goes i'm
00:22:34.140white and i'm codependent so i just don't get it but he's so smart and right and it's just you know
00:22:40.840from there they decide to do it but her stance is don't ask don't tell like I don't want to know
00:22:46.000anything but she does lay out rules she's like don't sleep with anyone we know don't sleep with
00:22:49.880anyone in our community uh don't see anyone multiple times you know basically don't have
00:22:55.180a girlfriend if it's just like one night stands whatever I don't care and I don't want to hear
00:22:58.340about it and then one day she gets a text from a fan that's like hey uh I saw your husband making
00:23:04.740out with someone at a bar and that's when she realizes like oh my husband has an entire girlfriend
00:23:10.820in portland uh and that becomes a whole thing where he's like i don't care if you're unhappy
00:23:17.000with it i'm gonna go to portland once a month and be with this person in the process of that
00:23:22.180lindy also finds out that he's been seeing a girl in their neighborhood who they all know which
00:23:27.240totally breaks the rule she's younger just every rule and at this point lindy's like you've broken
00:23:31.460every rule i have every right to leave you and she decides to go on a road trip um and this is
00:23:38.560really the travelogue part of the book and which I think is the strongest part of the book I really
00:23:43.220wish yeah I really wish so much more of it was just like the insights into her travels
00:23:48.660I love even just the part when she transcribes like her thoughts as she's just like driving and
00:23:53.760talking into a microphone and she rents a van does like the whole van life thing and she decides to
00:24:00.620drive from Seattle to Kokomo, Florida. And this is sort of the spark of the whole journey and
00:24:10.300travel and road trip, but also I think is the perfect sort of metaphor for the entire books
00:24:16.540issue. So at the start, she goes, I was always obsessed with the, you know, the Beach Boy song,
00:24:22.920love it. And that's when I decided I need to have my own Kokomo moment. I need to escape and get
00:24:27.480away, you know, find myself. I'm going to go to Kokomo. And she gets a, you know, map out and0.81
00:24:33.000gets online and is like driving to Kokomo, Florida. And what does she discover? It's not real.
00:24:41.240Kokomo, Florida. Which I like, I knew that. I feel like any, like most people know that,
00:24:49.200but in the book, it's like, she has no, she's like, oh my gosh, another letdown in my life.
00:24:54.680but she goes you know what forget it i'll just drive to the keys i'm just gonna drive you know
00:25:00.240the four keys it'll still be beautiful and and that's what she ends up doing uh but then on the
00:25:05.240drive back she goes on my way back to seattle i'm gonna go visit my friends in michigan uh samantha
00:25:12.360irby and and her wife who also an amazing writer oh my god yeah who i would say actually as everyone
00:25:17.900is kind of reliving the cindy or the lindy west stuff i'm like actually i came up on samantha
00:25:22.360Irby at that time oh yeah like I feel like Samantha Irby in the book I feel like is like
00:25:28.140the person that I identify with the most the most I was I was like Samantha Irby is the hero of the
00:25:33.440book and actually we all have a friend like that like you learn the most about Lindy through Sam
00:25:38.740which will but she decides like I'm gonna go to Michigan and see Sam and on the way she misses
00:25:45.400an exit and gets turned around in Indianapolis and suddenly she sees a sign for Kokomo Indiana
00:25:52.680and she says I swear on Mike Davis's life the guy from Beach Boys I swear to god I had no idea
00:25:59.120Kokomo Indiana was a thing this was just kismet this was magic like wow here in the most unexpected
00:26:05.720place I find what I was really looking for whoa but then she's also like I found out the town like
00:26:11.700has a racist history so like things still are racist and the thing is though like you just
00:26:18.600told it you did research and found out Kokomo wasn't real and in any research that's talking
00:26:24.680about they all mention Kokomo Indiana like on the Wikipedia page for the song it's like the only
00:26:31.320Kokomo Indiana like there's no way you didn't know Kokomo Indiana wasn't real but it's a pretty story
00:26:38.540right to be like I was on this road trip and I just stumbled across it it's beautiful narrative
00:26:44.540it's like when you're writing the tv show you're like oh yeah that makes sense because just saying
00:26:49.980yeah I saw there was a Kokomo Indiana and I went that's kind of funny I'll stop by it's on the way
00:26:55.320to go see my friend isn't interesting right it's just kind of like yeah you you knew it was there
00:27:01.780so you went that way because there's no reason to go through Michigan if you're going to Seattle
00:27:06.620from, you know, just say you wanted to go see Kokomo. It's fine. But instead, it has to be
00:27:12.420dressed up in this really beautiful, like, fairy tale moment. And that is really the issue with
00:27:18.540the book, is that she's still dressing up everything and her life into this beautiful
00:27:23.140narrative. And it feels like it's not so much even for her own sake, because throughout the book,
00:27:29.220she questions herself, right? Like, there's parts where she's like, am I just forcing myself into
00:27:33.700this throuple because I feel like I'm losing my husband and this is the only way to keep him
00:27:38.180and then she'll just kind of be like but anyway I saw a stand to buy some honey honey isn't that
00:27:44.180crazy and she doesn't keep asking the question she lets it go so I see a lot of people pushing
00:27:49.500back and saying you know they're criticizing her because people don't want to believe a woman could
00:27:53.800make this choice or you know they don't want to believe a woman could actually be into polyamory
00:27:59.220but people are just asking the questions that lindy's asking in the book you know they're
00:28:06.700having the same doubt she has in the book and it's just that the book doesn't give a satisfying
00:28:10.680answer uh it just sort of in its last few pages goes and it just so happens i also love my
00:28:18.180husband's girlfriend and he has great taste in women and she's really hot and thin and she likes
00:28:23.360me. So that's great. And now we're all happy because she helps me manage our calendar and1.00
00:28:29.040pay our bills. And he cooks sometimes and gets wood. And so, you know, to people who've read
00:28:36.900her writing, it doesn't sound so much like a happy ending. For people who are not monogamous,
00:28:42.440it's a little problematic and gets into issues of unicorns and women who use polyamory basically0.93
00:28:49.320to set up like a liberal polygamous institution where it's a bunch of women working together to
00:28:56.680handle a man's needs but they're doing it in a liberal way which is another big part of the book
00:29:02.120that some people have issue with is that for her it is embracing Roy in this thruple is her saying
00:29:10.360I am a more liberal person I you know am able to understand that monogamy is racist and if the rest
00:29:19.100of the world could understand and open up their minds to things like this, like falling in love
00:29:23.480with their husband's girlfriend. Maybe we wouldn't have so much hate. Maybe we wouldn't have
00:29:27.480conservatives. She drives through a lot of conservative places where she's like, really
00:29:32.720just assuming everyone is racist. It's a little odd. Like she, you know, meets people and she's
00:29:38.300like, oh, maybe if they could understand non-monogamy, they wouldn't be so close-minded.
00:29:43.020But it's like, girl, there's that there's those conservatives are probably swingers who are
00:29:48.400having more threesomes than you like you're in florida talking about these conservatives and0.99
00:29:53.500it's like those people are probably like leaving the trump rally to have sex like it doesn't matter0.92
00:30:00.360being ethically non-monogamous does not make you liberal like the tiger king was polyamorous like
00:30:08.120but the book doesn't want to get into that the book really wants you to believe like what we've
00:30:13.860created here is a liberal leftist ideal relationship uh other people should consider
00:30:19.900this kind of lifestyle because it makes you more socially morally correct that is a threat of the
00:30:27.900book is you know if the world were to embrace what i'm doing here everyone would be happy and
00:30:34.880yeah it just feels very out of touch because it's like no the people do it doesn't matter
00:30:40.960And another example in the book, and I wrote a piece for Harper's about this and mentioned this part, but she is in Idaho or Montana, I believe. And she stops to buy honey from a guy who is named Fat Daddy. He, you know, makes his own honey, sells it by the side of the road. He's with his friend and she buys some.
00:30:57.920and she notices they have second amendment hats on and she's like oh no like i've just supported
00:31:03.280conservative honey like they have second amendment hats on i bet that they're like pro-life and
00:31:08.900they're gonna use my money to go make signs for the pro-life clinic and if only fat daddy could
00:31:14.740focus on his honey and be a nice honey man he wouldn't need to be a conservative who loves
00:31:19.980trump and if he could just you know why can't people do that why can't they just focus on
00:31:23.660their hobbies instead of being haters. And it's like, well, girl, that man is focused on his
00:31:30.020honey. You just bought his honey. You have the honey. How much more focused do you want him to
00:31:34.540be on his honey? He makes it. He sells it. He puts a label on the honey. He's selling his honey. He
00:31:39.660is a nice honey man. Like you're saying, it just isn't working out the way you want it because it
00:31:44.840doesn't actually work that way. You know, he can be a nice B man and be a conservative. And for all
00:31:50.940you know, Fat Daddy is a gay, polyamorous libertarian. Like, that's how the world is now.0.98
00:31:58.020But Lindy sees it in a very black and white way in adult races, where it's like, no, you either
00:32:02.420have to be conservative, monogamous, Christian, or radical liberal who is seeking progressive
00:32:08.000approval by being in a throuple. And, you know, I think that at the heart of it is another issue
00:32:14.580people sort of take with the book. You wrote a phenomenal piece in Harper's that we'll put in
00:32:19.760of show notes called Lindy West and the Trap of Perfect Polyamory. And you are a polyamorous
00:32:25.160person yourself. I would say I've been an open thing, but I have dabbled in polyamory myself.
00:32:30.300And one of the points that you make that you've just sort of summarized is that I think I don't
00:32:35.440think the book is trying to be like a how to guide of how one should do polyamory and everybody's
00:32:40.800relationships are always messy and like, you know, whatever kind of structure you're trying to do.
00:32:44.620But I do think there is the thread that you called out of practicing polyamory being inherently more progressive than other kinds of relationships.
00:32:56.620And I have come along many an ethical, ethically non-monogamous person who I would not describe as altruistic or moral or progressive.
00:33:06.180i just watched the manosphere documentary oh yeah all of the different men in that documentary
00:33:11.740talk about how ethically they're like oh our relationship is one side of poly where yeah
00:33:18.180my man can date so many people and the girl can and there are so many even liberals who would
00:33:24.200look at that doc and say i hate that documentary who go well yeah i am in a dynamic where like i
00:33:29.760date my husband's girlfriend and we date each other and i date my husband and yes my husband
00:33:33.880and dates both of us and he can go date other women but we're only allowed to date women
00:33:37.300and they can justify it somehow but they separate themselves from those male queer guys and to me0.98
00:33:43.840it's like look i'm polyamorous okay it sucks it sucks it sucks that i have something in common0.98
00:33:51.340with those guys but i do it sucks that i have something in common with the tiger king but i do0.96
00:33:56.400okay for some reason we chose a similar relationship style and if you're gonna be polyamorous i think
00:34:03.140You have to start there. You can't start from a place of I'm choosing this because I want to be more moral or I am solving racism in my relationship if I open it up.
00:34:12.720If you do that, you're really more of a polygamous. You're basically kind of in line with Mormons or not Mormons, but fundamentalists, you know, who say we have to have a plural marriage because it makes us more religious.
00:34:27.520it makes us closer to God. To me, that's when the line starts blurring. You just have to look
00:34:33.620at polyamory as a different relationship style than monogamy. That has to be it. And if from
00:34:40.080there you go, oh, okay, I still want to do it. Great. Good place to start. But reading adult
00:34:46.720braces, it doesn't feel like that's where Lindy is. It feels like she wants to do it because her
00:34:52.760husband's telling her if you don't want to be racist you gotta let me have an open relationship
00:35:00.040and she's like it does seem like if I want to be accepted in progressive circles that's what I have
00:35:05.840to agree to and so okay and yeah let's take a quick break
00:57:05.060Something that I've seen a little bit of online, and you kind of hit on it a moment ago, is that we're weirdos for even talking about this marriage.
00:57:15.020And that I really push back on because just like when I was publishing those essays about my personal life for 50 bucks a pop, I couldn't then say nobody gets to, I want the money that comes with talking about my personal life, but nobody better talk about it.
00:57:30.480I don't want to see any chatter about what I've just told you.