There Are No Girls on the Internet - Marylin Manson’s abuse allegations are a tech issue - STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:00:02.580 Guaranteed human.

00:00:05.140 Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus

00:00:08.720 from $94 a month.

00:00:10.160 Price guaranteed for two years on Internet

00:00:12.040 with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.

00:00:14.400 Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability.

00:00:17.180 Bell. Connection is everything.

00:00:19.620 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

00:00:21.880 Think again.

00:00:22.520 More Americans listen to podcasts

00:00:23.980 than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

00:00:26.680 And as the number one podcaster,

00:00:28.060 iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:00:30.820 Learn how podcasting can help your business.

00:00:32.640 Call 844-844-IHEART.

00:00:34.920 If your bookshelf and your For You page

00:00:36.860 are equally important to your personality,

00:00:39.100 welcome home.

00:00:40.700 Pro Society is a weekly podcast

00:00:42.560 that's part book club, part group chat

00:00:44.480 for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice

00:00:46.180 and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:00:48.920 Each week, we're connecting the dots

00:00:50.360 between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:00:52.460 with your favorite writers, book talk creators,

00:00:54.980 and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:00:57.080 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:00:59.080 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:04.980 Just a quick heads up, today's episode talks about sexual violence.

00:01:12.660 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:01:20.780 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:01:23.480 55-year-old Brian Warner, who you might know better as his stage name, Marilyn Manson, is mounting a big comeback tour.

00:01:33.640 He announced his first tour date since multiple women came forward saying he sexually abused them.

00:01:39.380 A now familiar page from the Abuser playbook, Warner is actually suing one of his survivors, actor Evan Rachel Wood, for defamation and emotional distress.

00:01:49.160 The suit is ongoing, but back in January, a judge ordered Warner to pay her court costs.

00:01:53.980 So why am I talking about this on a tech podcast?

00:01:56.720 I got into how this is actually a tech and platform accountability issue

00:02:00.300 with my friends Samantha and Annie over at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You.

00:02:09.760 Hey, this is Annie.

00:02:11.040 And Samantha.

00:02:11.880 And welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio.

00:02:18.640 And today we are thrilled to once again be joined by the amazing, fantastic Bridget Todd.

00:02:29.880 Hi, Bridget. Thanks for joining us.

00:02:32.720 Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Always such a pleasure to be joining you ladies.

00:02:37.340 Yes, and happy belated birthday. 0.68

00:02:41.180 Oh my God, thank you.

00:02:42.400 I had a birthday. I almost kind of forgot because it happened at a weird time, but thank you.

00:02:48.400 Well, you were in the middle of your travels, right?

00:02:50.920 Yeah, I was in Austin, Texas for South by Southwest.

00:02:53.880 So that's not a bad place to spend your birthday,

00:02:56.140 but it kind of happened very quickly

00:02:58.420 and I kind of forgot about it.

00:02:59.640 I was getting on the plane to go back home

00:03:01.560 and the person who checked my ID was like,

00:03:03.660 oh, happy belated birthday.

00:03:05.040 And I said, oh, that's right.

00:03:06.000 I did have a birthday.

00:03:06.880 Thank you.

00:03:09.000 Yeah, I think someone recently asked me how old I was

00:03:12.600 and I like paused to think about it.

00:03:16.420 get back to you on that. But yeah, how was your South by Southwest experience?

00:03:23.520 It was good. And it was interesting. You know, it was the first time they had done it since COVID.

00:03:29.160 It was cool. I have to shout out the fact that probably every other panel or like talk,

00:03:36.540 like speech or talk that I saw was a trans person or a non-binary person really speaking out against

00:03:43.700 some of the, like, horrific legislation we've seen in Texas.

00:03:46.720 And there were lots of women speaking out about, like, 0.95

00:03:49.600 the horrible abortion legislation in Texas.

00:03:51.220 So even though it felt a little bit strange to be in Texas,

00:03:55.260 I left so empowered and engaged and, like, leaned into the fight

00:04:00.660 to, you know, really create change.

00:04:05.240 And so I have to really shout out a lot of, you know,

00:04:07.920 abortion advocates and trans advocates

00:04:10.160 that I'm sure being in Texas was, like,

00:04:13.700 tough for them, but I really have to shout out how incredible it was for them to

00:04:18.700 make space to open up conversations about legislation that is harming their community.

00:04:23.440 So it was good. Yeah, I love that because I know like it's kind of so difficult to be in an area

00:04:31.300 where it's so toxic to you as a person, as a human being going through your life and then

00:04:37.580 feeling like, yeah, you know what? I can't leave because I have to fight this. There's just that

00:04:41.740 double whammy but that is amazing to hear that such an event which is an international event

00:04:47.040 was able to push forward that conversation absolutely i really think like shout out to

00:04:52.780 all of those people who i don't even say i might even like i think they took the space for

00:04:57.460 themselves and i think that was the right thing to do yeah awesome that's that's amazing and and

00:05:03.580 we were discussing before this one um this is a topic that is so important that you brought to us

00:05:09.000 today. It's a bit of a downer, but it's incredibly important. And I think we're going to have a lot

00:05:15.420 of, there's a lot of nuance with this that I appreciate that you brought to it. So what did

00:05:21.240 you bring for us to discuss today, Bridget? Yeah, as you said, it's a little bit of a rough topic.

00:05:26.780 So we're going to be talking about sexual assault and domestic violence and abuse. So just know that

00:05:32.960 going forward. So my podcast, There Are No Girls on the Internet, is really all about the ways that

00:05:37.580 issues that maybe don't seem like tech issues, issues that impact women and other traditionally

00:05:42.160 marginalized people, you know, they might not be seen as tech issues, but they're very much tech

00:05:48.360 issues. And today's topic, I think, is a really great example of what I mean. So today I want to

00:05:51.720 talk about the platform YouTube and their failure to remove a video of actor and activist Evan Rachel

00:05:57.220 Wood being sexually assaulted. So it is really important to me, you know, as someone who makes

00:06:02.180 a tech podcast and cares about technology and works in technology, to talk about this and

00:06:06.220 especially frame it not as kind of a, quote, celebrity story, which I've seen it really

00:06:11.420 framed as, or even worse, as a, quote, he said, she said, which is obviously not correct.

00:06:17.560 Because that kind of framing, I think, really lets tech companies that are involved off

00:06:22.180 the hook.

00:06:22.620 I'm sure these tech companies like YouTube would love it if this story was not framed

00:06:27.220 as a tech accountability story and was just a sort of, you know, celebrity story.

00:06:32.100 But unfortunately for them, I'm not framing it that way.

00:06:35.320 I am framing it as a tech accountability story because that's what I believe that it is.

00:06:40.000 That's amazing because we literally were just talking about an episode which came out with

00:06:44.420 which TikTok, I talked about the fact that they're allowing these really bad, like really

00:06:49.200 misogynistic jokes about killing women on dates, essentially, and allowing it and saying it's not

00:06:54.000 violating anything. It's just a joke. And it's kind of like, wait, where's the accountability? 0.65

00:06:58.260 No, you are allowing this rhetoric that people are just latching onto, which is so toxic and 0.97

00:07:04.920 harmful and dangerous for women in general. So we need to have a conversation about why you are 1.00

00:07:10.760 accountable for these things. But I digress, because let's hear about exactly what you're

00:07:16.860 talking about, especially with the Evan Rachel Wood. I think I know a little bit about it,

00:07:20.120 but if you can just kind of go into that. Absolutely. So here's what's happening with

00:07:23.680 Evan Rachel Wood. Basically, Wood has spent a few years now advocating for survivors of sexual

00:07:29.960 violence and abuse. And when she's done this, she's often referenced her own, you know, heretofore

00:07:35.020 unnamed abuser. But on February 1st, 2021, Wood publicly named her abuser in a message on

00:07:40.900 Instagram. She wrote, the name of my abuser is Brian Warner, also known to the world as Marilyn

00:07:45.920 Manson. He started grooming me as a teenager and horrifically abused me for years. I am here to

00:07:50.600 expose this dangerous man and call out the many industries that have enabled him before he ruins

00:07:55.680 any more lives. And so a quick note for people who are listening, you will probably be more

00:08:00.180 familiar with Brian Warner as his stage name as a musician, Marilyn Manson. But I am not going to

00:08:06.360 call him Marilyn Manson in this episode. And I have basically stopped calling him Marilyn Manson

00:08:10.740 in general, because I think it adds to this mythology that Brian Warner has created around

00:08:15.640 himself. And I believe that he has exploited that mythology to continue to abuse women.

00:08:20.080 I'll talk a little bit more about what I mean later in the episode.

00:08:23.380 But when I say Warner, Brian Warner, I'm referring to the musician whose stage name is Marilyn Manson, whose actual name is Brian Warner.

00:08:32.420 And Evan Rachel Wood is not alone.

00:08:34.280 Several women, including women who are not famous and don't have a public profile like she does, have made similar claims against Warner.

00:08:40.660 So far, 16 women have accused Warner of sexual abuse and four have sued him for sexual assault.

00:08:46.280 So, you know, I said earlier that people were mistakenly framing it as a he said, she said.

00:08:50.580 So even though that framing is not correct, even if that is how you were framing it,

00:08:55.300 it wouldn't really be a he said, she said.

00:08:56.820 It would be more like a he said, she said, she said, she said, she said, you know, 16 times.

00:09:04.980 Yep.

00:09:05.620 At the very least.

00:09:07.060 Exactly.

00:09:07.580 I mean, like, who even knows?

00:09:09.360 You know, this is what we know about.

00:09:10.820 That's a really good point.

00:09:12.500 Yeah, yeah.

00:09:13.700 And I remember when this came out and when it first came out, this is kind of news, but it's recently I saw it come up again that Warner is kind of pursuing a legal battle of his own against her.

00:09:30.680 So can you go into more like what is going on right now?

00:09:34.060 Right. So this, you know, we were talking about this when Evan Rachel Wood first named Warner as her abuser back in 2021. But the reason why we're talking about it right now is because Evan Rachel Wood just released a new documentary, which you can watch on HBO Max, a two-part documentary called Phoenix Rising that really chronicles her story.

00:09:51.900 As you might imagine, it is a difficult watch.

00:09:54.420 I watched the first part of it,

00:09:56.900 and I had to take a break from the second part,

00:09:58.300 which I was watching last night,

00:09:59.140 because it's a little, I mean, as you might imagine,

00:10:01.000 it's not the easiest watch.

00:10:02.680 So just, if you're planning on watching it, just know that.

00:10:04.940 So the movie, it's interesting in that it starts,

00:10:07.740 ostensibly, as a kind of Aaron Brockovich-style story,

00:10:11.280 chronicling Wood's successful campaign

00:10:13.480 to pass the Phoenix Act,

00:10:14.940 which is a legislation that extends

00:10:16.460 the statute of limitations on domestic violence in California.

00:10:18.860 But during filming, when Wood publicly names Warner as her own abuser, the film begins to follow that aftermath.

00:10:26.400 And so the documentary really chronicles her upbringing, her work to become a survivor advocate, a domestic abuse advocate, trying to pass this legislation.

00:10:37.360 And then kind of pivots when we see her publicly name Warner as this person who had abused her that she had been referencing as her abuser for so long in that work.

00:10:48.860 get bell pure fiber internet with crave netflix and disney plus from 94 a month price guaranteed

00:11:01.900 for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit visit bell.ca for details

00:11:06.940 and to check availability bell connection is everything run a business and not thinking

00:11:12.320 about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming

00:11:17.220 music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster iheart's twice as large as the next

00:11:22.400 two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear your message plus only iheart can

00:11:27.420 extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio think podcasting can help your business

00:11:32.100 think iheart streaming radio and podcasting call 844-844-iheart to get started that's 844-844-iheart

00:11:40.920 if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality welcome home

00:11:47.100 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:11:59.560 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:12:06.660 I'm going to have to look up this story.

00:12:08.560 I'm obsessed.

00:12:09.320 I'm obsessed.

00:12:09.800 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:12:16.580 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

00:12:23.700 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

00:12:33.280 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:12:39.180 See you between the pages.

00:12:46.860 And I know when we were originally seeing all of this come out,

00:12:50.600 because I remember seeing her testify before the name was coming out in front of the Senate,

00:12:54.180 trying to talk about the statute of limitations and going into this whole conversation

00:12:57.740 and how quickly after the fact, she showed herself as the survivor advocate and she named him.

00:13:05.080 How many people came behind her like, oh my God, this is why this is familiar.

00:13:08.780 As well as the fact when she described some of the events that happened to her, many women already came out because they had gone through some similar things, including how they met.

00:13:18.860 So can you kind of talk about their relationship specifically, Warner and Woods?

00:13:22.240 I really like how you have framed that because I think that in her situation, so many other women spoke up and said, this was exactly what happened with me.

00:13:32.800 he did this to me, you know, her, her, and I also think just her situation is really familiar to me.

00:13:39.580 And I think anybody who has dealt with domestic violence or sexual abuse by an intimate partner,

00:13:44.860 the way that he operated in the beginning might be kind of familiar. So Wood and Warner met at a

00:13:49.580 party at Chateau Marmont when she was 18 and he was 37. They maintained a platonic friendship

00:13:55.260 where Warner would talk to her about things like her favorite books and her favorite artists.

00:13:59.520 Then the two started to date.

00:14:00.980 Now, she describes this as a kind of grooming and love-bombing situation

00:14:05.140 where, you know, early on, he was referring to her as his soulmate

00:14:09.260 and really was making her feel like he was the only one

00:14:14.560 who really got her, really loved her.

00:14:16.840 Early on, she describes him kind of starting to isolate her

00:14:20.300 from her friends and family,

00:14:21.760 and that was the beginning stages of their early romantic relationship.

00:14:26.340 And so at this point, you know, you might be thinking...

00:14:29.520 You know, why would someone like Evan Rachel Wood get involved romantically with someone like Warner, who was known for these shocking kind of gross antics on stage?

00:14:40.160 And that kind of really goes back to why I'm not going to call him, quote, Marilyn Manson.

00:14:44.900 And I think that big part of that is because Warner's public persona as Marilyn Manson really helped him get away with gross, abusive behavior in public.

00:14:54.360 So if you were a young person like me in the 90s, you might remember that after the Columbine school shooting in 1999, Warner was legitimately unfairly blamed for the deaths of 15 young people after it was misreported that the Columbine shooters were big fans of his music and that his music motivated them in the shooting.

00:15:13.200 At this time, politicians were lobbying to have his performances banned, citing these really over-the-top, exaggerated, outlandish, untrue claims.

00:15:21.900 Things like at his shows, that he would have the security guards spike the drinking water at the shows and give it to young kids in the audience, or that he was engaging in bestiality on stage or ripping apart animals.

00:15:34.380 Warner's legal team actually sent the American Family Association a cease and desist for saying that he encouraged kids to engage in violent sexual acts from the stage in the audience.

00:15:43.900 And so none of that was true. And Warner countered these legit, unearned, unfair responses to the threat that his music poses to kids by doing these sort of very thoughtful, measured interviews where he was able to portray himself in direct opposition to this outlandish onstage persona that these...

00:16:03.880 politicians and conservative figures were sort of demonizing. And so as he was being demonized

00:16:09.600 by these people and sort of, you know, them making up these outlandish exaggerations and

00:16:13.780 claims about him, he was able to really present himself as this measured, thoughtful, reasonable

00:16:20.280 person. And one interview that really sticks out to me, if anyone has seen the documentary,

00:16:24.020 Michael Morris Bowling for Columbine, there's a sit down segment with Marilyn Manson where he

00:16:29.380 says things like, oh, the young people who perpetrated the Columbine shooting would have

00:16:33.960 been safer had they purchased my CDs, you know, rather than buying guns. And so he, I remember

00:16:40.300 specifically, he comes off as this very thoughtful, measured, nuanced guy. And it really created this,

00:16:48.800 um, I don't know, this sort of portrayal of him as someone who was being unfairly maligned. And

00:16:57.740 us some of his other behavior was really able to go unscrutinized because it was so clear he was

00:17:03.560 being unfairly demonized for this behavior that he never actually engaged in like he wasn't actually

00:17:08.840 spiking the drinking water at his shows and having sex with animals on stage right and i know we're

00:17:14.980 going to get into this more later because i have a lot of thoughts about all of this and as i said

00:17:18.580 you do such a great job of like there are a lot of nuances to this conversation but i remember

00:17:23.220 I listened to Marilyn Manson

00:17:26.280 when I was really young

00:17:27.300 and I had a friend who was

00:17:29.180 her parents were really conservative

00:17:30.820 and they no joke showed up at my mom's house 0.91

00:17:34.260 and yelled at my mom 0.98

00:17:36.100 for letting their daughter listen to it

00:17:38.220 and it became such a point of

00:17:41.820 like it didn't have to become this point

00:17:44.660 but it became such a point of like

00:17:46.520 oh you conservatives don't get it

00:17:49.260 you're trying to like hold me down

00:17:50.880 and you don't understand

00:17:52.100 and like, I feel so outcast and you'll never get it.

00:17:55.800 And it, their kind of outrage made it into a bigger thing

00:18:00.200 than it would have been if they had never said anything.

00:18:04.880 Oh my gosh.

00:18:05.600 I had the same exact experience, right?

00:18:07.380 So I was a kid, I was in junior high.

00:18:09.680 I had this heyday, I'll say.

00:18:11.240 And, you know, I was like an altie.

00:18:13.460 I wouldn't say I was like a goth kid,

00:18:14.800 but I was definitely very altie.

00:18:15.980 And I totally had the same experience.

00:18:19.000 I ate up this idea that he was being unfairly persecuted and I, you know, felt like I was being unfairly persecuted as this like weirdo, alty kid as a junior high student.

00:18:31.260 Never mind the fact that like that wasn't actually necessarily happening.

00:18:34.320 That's just how I felt because I was a teenager.

00:18:36.460 And I think he really, really used that exact thing as a way to avoid accountability for his other behavior.

00:18:45.940 And honestly, I agree with you.

00:18:47.200 You know, I listened to Warner's music a lot as a youth, and I really, really liked him.

00:18:52.400 Like, I had a poster, a Marilyn Manson poster in my locker, next to a Prodigy poster, to give you a sense of how old I am.

00:18:58.260 Remember Prodigy?

00:18:59.520 Oh, yeah.

00:19:00.600 I think that, like, I listened to all different kinds of music, but the only music that had this kind of over-the-top, exaggerated, like, climate around it was Marilyn Manson.

00:19:15.580 And so that fed into the idea that he was being unfairly persecuted at the time.

00:19:21.160 You know, I don't know if people remember what it was like to be a young person after Columbine.

00:19:25.060 If you were like a little altie or if you were all black, it did kind of feel like, you know, the powers that be were cracking down on who you were in the aftermath of that shooting.

00:19:34.280 And so I think that had there not have been such a backlash to the music, Warner's music would have just been another in a mixed bag of stuff that I liked.

00:19:44.680 You know, I liked Prodigy, I liked The Spice Girls, I liked so many different things.

00:19:47.620 But because of this over-the-top response to his music, it pushed me that much further into this kind of, I don't know, dangerous vibe where he gets to position himself as unfairly persecuted.

00:20:00.760 And anybody who doesn't like him or his behavior is just, you know, doesn't get it and doesn't get you, edgy teen.

00:20:08.220 Edgy teen, I like it.

00:20:09.420 Well, I will say I was older than y'all, so I'm like, yeah, I wasn't, okay, never mind, we're not going to tell you the time frame.

00:20:15.340 But I do find that interesting that we have this conversation because absolutely remembering all of the politicians coming in and saying this is this, kind of that whole time frame around the Matrix as well as video games and blaming all of these things.

00:20:30.700 but also how they like to over demonize kind of like how it's happening with q anon and when we 0.67

00:20:36.460 talked about sex trafficking and that they are doing so much theatrical things that that make

00:20:41.900 no sense that it's overshadowing the actual problems that are happening and therefore

00:20:47.220 exactly like taking attention away from the true crimes or the things that are so horribly wrong

00:20:53.660 because it is being overshadowed by the caricature of accusations merely for a platform merely for

00:21:00.680 politics. And it's so obnoxious because, yeah, because of that, Marilyn Manson got this

00:21:06.020 credibility for being misunderstood, as you had already said. And then also he's able to use that

00:21:13.980 now as a part of his defense today. But I know we're going to be able to talk about that in a

00:21:18.580 minute. Absolutely. I mean, and then also, I mean, like what you just said, isn't it interesting how

00:21:23.000 the American Family Association and all these politicians were trying to ban his shows? We

00:21:26.780 never did much about guns though that was just like we had the conversation about violent video

00:21:31.880 games the matrix black clothing trench coats brian warner but not the guns so it's exactly what you

00:21:37.560 just said of kind of an intense overreach that reaches to the wrong cause i guess and then lets

00:21:44.960 the real cause just go unanalyzed yeah and i think that's um something that's been on our minds a lot

00:21:53.800 lately is this idea of consent and how our environment is really set up where true consent

00:22:01.860 for women is almost impossible. And this situation being such a grooming situation where you have 0.69

00:22:08.140 this person coming in who's much older and who is showering you with attention. And I was saying

00:22:14.560 recently on an episode, like, I'm ashamed to admit it, but I shouldn't be because I was raised to be

00:22:19.660 this way. But like when I was 18 and people catcall me, I'd be like flattered. Let's be

00:22:23.580 good. Oh my gosh. I have desirability. That means I have value. And that put me in some

00:22:30.160 unsafe situations. So this, I hate this. I hate that she was young and there was this

00:22:36.960 older person that she respected and she was getting this attention. And it's just absolutely

00:22:41.780 predatory. Absolutely preying on her. Yeah. I mean, I can really identify. I'll just say

00:22:49.200 that. And it's one of those things where you don't necessarily realize it until you're older.

00:22:55.840 And I mean, it applies in this situation too. I want to be careful about how I speak about this

00:23:01.340 because it is part of the conversation. But when Evan Rachel Wood was in a relationship with Marilyn

00:23:07.180 Manson early on, and keep in mind, she's 18. She's very young. I remember very clearly her

00:23:12.800 in interview saying like, oh, people need to stop saying that I'm being taken advantage of or groomed.

00:23:18.280 And I think it's easy for people to say like, oh, well, now we're supposed to believe her

00:23:23.640 when she says that she's being, that she was being groomed or coerced.

00:23:27.060 Well, she was 18 when that happened.

00:23:28.300 She was 18 when they met.

00:23:29.840 Like, you're so young.

00:23:31.880 And so it's completely tracks with my own personal experiences that you might not have

00:23:37.600 the world experience or just the life experience or, you know, your own understanding of your

00:23:43.740 place in the world at 18.

00:23:45.560 It might take a few years for you to look back on that and say, hey, I was being coerced, or hey, you know, I was being groomed, or hey, some things happened that shouldn't have happened, and I didn't have the language or the voice yet to say, I don't want this to happen.

00:23:58.720 And I think that's one of the reasons why this story is one that needs to be told, because I think that's all of ours.

00:24:05.440 I think that's so many of our stories.

00:24:06.760 It's so common.

00:24:07.980 I think it's completely unfair to use that as a reason to not support survivors, not listen to survivors, because it is so common.

00:24:16.000 Right.

00:24:16.240 We'll be right back.

00:24:46.240 And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:24:50.960 So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.

00:24:53.980 Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.

00:24:58.300 Think podcasting can help your business?

00:25:00.240 Think iHeart.

00:25:01.300 Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

00:25:03.480 Let us show you at iHeartAdvertising.com.

00:25:06.040 That's iHeartAdvertising.com.

00:25:08.500 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. 0.91

00:25:14.240 This is Prose Society.

00:25:16.240 The weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:25:26.820 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:25:33.940 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:25:37.360 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:25:43.460 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

00:25:51.380 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

00:26:00.540 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:26:06.460 See you between the pages.

00:26:13.460 I think that big portion of this conversation is that the early sexualization of young girls point blank is part of this problem because I know a lot of this conversation when Evan Rachel Woods came out in her acting career, she was 13, 14 and came out with this big indie film that pretty much talked about young women growing older real quick, trying to survive and thinking the way to survive is to be sexual and grown.

00:26:38.680 Like that was the whole basis of the movie, which that's a whole conversation in itself.

00:26:44.060 But because of that, because of things like that, that's where she came into the 18 year

00:26:48.640 old and no one, no one listening to the fact that this is grooming. 0.94

00:26:52.520 Like, I don't care if she's legal now, which is, which is a bullshit term, that whole barely 1.00

00:26:56.880 legal bullshit that I really want to punch everybody in the face every time they say 1.00

00:26:59.900 it. 1.00

00:27:00.580 That's that conversation is really sexualizing these young girls and telling them they are 1.00

00:27:05.280 of more worth because they're acting grown because they are finally in their way of being a woman

00:27:10.920 and finding out and not having the support and understanding or people even letting her know

00:27:15.600 the whole concept of consent and why that is a big conversation that needed to be had way back

00:27:21.520 when and because of that feeling trapped because she is being told this is what you put yourself in

00:27:25.760 you knew what you were getting into which is the formula of all of the victim blaming which we see

00:27:32.200 today that has not gone away, that for some reason is used by everyone, not just men,

00:27:37.640 women, all between, because it's so hard to let go of that internalized misogyny of saying,

00:27:43.120 but you knew. Absolutely. And she explicitly says that in some of the things that experiences that

00:27:49.060 happened to her that we'll talk about in a moment, like she explicitly says exactly what you're

00:27:52.900 referencing that, you know, she had internalized that she was meant to just go along with whatever.

00:27:58.340 And that was that was like what she was supposed to do. And that is something that I think that we all internalize and we have to sort of like I know that I have a lot of unlearning to do around, you know, like saying no when something doesn't feel right or when, you know, and for me, it has been a lifelong process.

00:28:13.240 And so it sounds like for her, she had to learn that as well. And as you said, I mean, it starts so early and 18 really is so young.

00:28:22.740 You know, she talks about how when she first met Brian Warner, she said that she really liked him and what he stood for.

00:28:28.940 And she wrote in her journal that she thought that he was the hero and the spokesperson of misfits.

00:28:34.700 And it just really does sound like he did a very good job of making her feel like that was true.

00:28:43.760 That she maybe felt like a misfit and that he was an advocate for people who felt like they didn't belong.

00:28:49.280 and that he really used that persona to continue to abuse women and girls pretty much in public.

00:28:57.340 There's this great piece in The Atlantic that sums it up nicely called

00:29:00.440 Marilyn Manson Told Us What He Was.

00:29:02.720 It sums it up very nicely.

00:29:04.180 They write,

00:29:05.120 If we believe Wood and more than a dozen women who have accused Manson of abuse,

00:29:09.140 then a strange twist is that the aftermath of Columbine seems to have enabled Manson to become

00:29:13.720 what Wood's brother describes in the documentary as, quote,

00:29:16.720 a wolf in wolf's clothing.

00:29:17.980 The hysterical and vented accusations leveled at Manson then, that he molested children on stage, killed animals, had his security guards drug underage fans with liquid ecstasy, minimized other things that might have been happening in plain sight. 0.75

00:29:31.400 But they also allowed Manson to detach his artistic persona from himself and allowed others to infer that anything offensive he did was just performance art, winking commentary on America's hypocritical and immoral core.

00:29:44.520 And that, to me, really sums up why I'm not comfortable calling him, quote, Marilyn Manson, because, you know, inventing this persona and saying that it's performance art should not be a way to avoid and excuse accountability for your own abusive behavior.

00:30:02.520 And I believe that's what the Marilyn Manson persona has allowed him to do.

00:30:07.160 Right. Hello, Kanye West.

00:30:08.900 Exactly, exactly. Thank you. I mean, it's all part of the same like f***ed up abusive ball of yarn, right? Genius, artistic, like it's, I could talk all day about this, but it's all like two sides of the same messed up coin.

00:30:23.900 Well, that's, I mean, I'm referencing that Kanye literally is hiding a little bit behind Brian Warner by bringing him on stage and putting him as like, he's an ally because we're the one in the same. And you're like, yeah, you are. That should tell you something.

00:30:36.000 Yeah, I remember, I had forgotten until you just mentioned that he brought him up on stage during his Yeezus tour. 1.00

00:30:43.880 And, you know, I think it was meant to be like all of these malign people who don't understand our genius. 1.00

00:30:49.380 And it's like, you're right. 1.00

00:30:50.300 I don't understand your genius.

00:30:51.760 I think it's abusive.

00:30:53.060 Yes, yes.

00:30:53.980 And I think you're hiding behind that to get away with it.

00:30:56.820 And that's a problem.

00:30:58.340 Exactly, exactly, exactly.

00:30:59.820 This is his thing. In interviews, Warner pretty much is open and in public about some of the

00:31:07.080 abusive behavior that he has put Wood through. In a pretty notorious spin interview, he talks

00:31:14.060 about how he fantasized about smashing her head with a sledgehammer or how after they broke up

00:31:19.420 and she stopped taking his calls, that every time I called her that day and I called her 158 times, 0.69

00:31:25.980 I took a razor blade and cut myself on my face and on my hands.

00:31:29.580 But then later, he is able to say,

00:31:31.900 oh, well, I didn't really mean those things

00:31:33.940 or I didn't really feel those things.

00:31:35.180 I didn't actually do those things.

00:31:36.440 I was just playing a character.

00:31:37.800 And I believe that that excuse

00:31:40.060 allows him to skirt accountability

00:31:42.500 for his actual behavior as Brian Warner.

00:31:46.080 You can't say that,

00:31:47.420 oh, that was just me playing a rock and roll character

00:31:49.380 who was Marilyn Manson

00:31:50.320 when you have an actual partner

00:31:51.940 who is accusing you of abusing her.

00:31:54.320 Yeah, and it's really terrifying because we're also seeing this in politics where I'm seeing politicians being like, oh, that was just a joke and you didn't get it, right? Like, doing that same sort of thing. And that's been really damaging.

00:32:09.900 And also I, again, I grew up listening to a lot of like punk rock and emo of the like 2000s, early 2000s.

00:32:17.620 And we were just talking about this, like a lot of the lyrics in that, which is a lot of men singing about like pretty much hating women and blaming them for their sort of violent actions.

00:32:29.020 And then, and also the TikTok thing you were talking about, Samantha, it's the same thing.

00:32:32.820 We're singing it again, like being like, no, I mean, that's just, that's just who I am.

00:32:37.060 That's my art.

00:32:37.580 That's how I express myself.

00:32:38.280 You took it too seriously.

00:32:39.900 Yeah. I mean, I completely agree. Maybe it's because I'm older now. I'm going back and

00:32:44.880 thinking like, wow, I was listening to music that was like, there's this brand new song

00:32:49.520 where he's like, have another drink and drive yourself home. I hope there's ice on all the

00:32:53.680 roads. And it's like, that's pretty, like, I was like a very young person screaming along

00:33:00.900 to lyrics that were pretty dark. And I, you know, I'm someone who like, I love, I love

00:33:07.760 music and I think people should listen to what moves them, but we should also be a little

00:33:12.480 critical about what that was and if that was okay. There's actually a TikToker, I can't 0.52

00:33:19.740 remember her name off the top of my head, but she goes back and replays kind of like 1.00

00:33:25.820 screamo punk bands from that era and unpacks the ways that they are really unfair to women.

00:33:33.960 And it's like, oh, wow, I had no idea that I was basically singing along happily for an anthem that's about disrespecting women.

00:33:42.580 And I'm a woman, you know?

00:33:43.820 Right.

00:33:45.040 I mean, Annie and I have been talking about this for a while, about the romanticizing of abuse as if it's something that should be a part of your relationship and not understanding.

00:33:56.760 This is really not good.

00:33:58.060 But these like the constant phone calls, not great.

00:34:01.340 The I'm going to kill myself if you don't love me back.

00:34:04.600 Like this whole level of like, oh my God, what is happening?

00:34:08.000 And we've allowed that to be because somehow we've allowed that to be romanticized in our

00:34:11.620 head.

00:34:11.880 It's this is true love, right?

00:34:13.980 Like this is what it means to be in love, to want to die if we're not together.

00:34:18.340 And then going beyond that for men, but like, if I really want you, I have to show you my

00:34:22.220 power and my power means me hurting you maybe or someone else for sure in order to show you

00:34:27.260 that I am the man who can protect you quote unquote in so many different ways and like kind

00:34:33.740 of this whole other trope that we've allowed to be yeah that's just men being men this is this is

00:34:40.340 normal this is good right and no one really questioning until after the fact of realizing

00:34:45.340 oh my god there's so much trauma here why did we think this was okay yeah I completely agree and

00:34:52.120 we should really be asking the question about what we depict as romantic. And I think something

00:34:59.920 that you said, I can't stop thinking about is that it starts so young. Like how many of you all

00:35:04.780 remember when, if you're a girl and then maybe a guy, a guy, when you were a kid pushes you on

00:35:10.740 the playground and some adult somewhere is like, well, it's probably because he likes you.

00:35:14.840 that like right you know like we should not be it happens so early that we make it okay

00:35:23.600 when quote-unquote affection or love is actually abuse right we should really be asking questions

00:35:30.760 about it but honestly i would just one of my go-to comfort movies that i kind of tease about

00:35:37.700 all the time is rather two-y and recently i like there's a scene in and i was like oh my god

00:35:42.360 why did we allow this in which the rat comes through the roof and you see a couple fighting

00:35:49.300 with a gun it goes off and he's like oh my god and goes back and they're kissing and making out

00:35:54.540 and he just he just laughs and shrugs and walks off and i'm like is that okay this is wait like

00:36:02.280 we're not even gonna talk about how people are really upset about periods but this is okay this

00:36:06.540 scene has made it but you know like this is that level of like it literally was just a blip in the

00:36:12.900 screen of a very g-rated movie and it's romanticized it's like oh but they're they just love each other

00:36:19.320 oh that's just one of those but one one more couple like that yeah you know how you know how

00:36:23.200 marriage is how you sometimes you argue you get out the gun you shoot a minute later you're kissing

00:36:28.880 you know a gun goes off and then right you forget about it everything is fine but that's the thing

00:36:34.380 Like, what are we teaching? I mean, I don't want to be one of those people like, but what is this movie teaching? But like that is it's become so normalized in these conversations that women really, truly are young girls really, truly think this is the epitome of being a woman.

00:36:48.360 This is the epitome of being in a relationship.

00:36:51.000 Tough times means he hits me, but I forgive him.

00:36:53.880 Like that's that conversation until you realize,

00:36:56.780 oh my God, I couldn't see it until I left.

00:37:00.580 And until I figured out talking to other women,

00:37:03.220 how it was not just him loving me,

00:37:05.160 that this is him controlling women in general.

00:37:07.940 Exactly, exactly that.

00:37:09.700 Yeah, gosh, I feel like we could go,

00:37:12.360 we need a venting session.

00:37:14.020 We need a podcast where we just vent

00:37:15.560 because I'm like, yeah, let's talk about

00:37:17.180 how we're not allowing for consent

00:37:18.700 and all this stuff.

00:37:27.400 Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet

00:37:29.080 with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus

00:37:31.000 from $94 a month.

00:37:32.420 Price guaranteed for two years on internet

00:37:34.320 with a two-year term and auto-pay credit.

00:37:36.660 Visit bell.ca for details

00:37:38.020 and to check availability.

00:37:39.440 Bell. Connection is everything.

00:37:41.840 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

00:37:44.640 Think again.

00:37:45.640 More Americans listen to podcasts

00:37:47.140 than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

00:37:50.380 And as the number one podcaster,

00:37:52.160 iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:37:54.660 So whatever your customers listen to,

00:37:56.300 they'll hear your message.

00:37:57.740 Plus, only iHeart can extend your message

00:37:59.680 to audiences across broadcast radio.

00:38:02.060 Think podcasting can help your business?

00:38:04.000 Think iHeart.

00:38:05.060 Streaming, radio, and podcasting.

00:38:07.240 Let us show you at iHeartAdvertising.com.

00:38:09.620 That's iHeartAdvertising.com.

00:38:12.360 If your bookshelf and your For You page

00:38:14.180 are equally important to your personality,

00:38:15.940 welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:38:22.800 part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks

00:38:26.720 Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo,

00:38:31.520 and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations

00:38:35.720 everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:38:40.880 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

00:38:45.940 nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling

00:38:52.280 characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives,

00:38:57.280 smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much,

00:39:02.640 you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,

00:39:07.280 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

00:39:15.940 So I know we're not going to go too deep into this,

00:39:21.940 but could you go kind of briefly into what Wood says about what Warner put her through?

00:39:28.700 Yeah, the list of abuses that he put her through are truly horrifying.

00:39:32.500 I honestly don't want to, like, this is why I couldn't finish the documentary because it's a lot.

00:39:37.040 So I don't want to spend too much time on it because they really are sickening.

00:39:39.580 But among them are the allegations that Warner, who Wood says collected Nazi memorabilia,

00:39:45.000 so just a really great guy, would whip her with a Nazi whip.

00:39:49.700 And Wood, her mother is Jewish, and she was raised Jewish herself. 0.58

00:39:53.540 And so this is obviously really messed up.

00:39:55.780 She says that he also deprived her of sleep,

00:39:57.900 forced her to drink his blood in a blood pack where he also drank hers, 0.93

00:40:02.180 raped her while she was sleeping, forced her to take drugs, and a lot more. 0.99

00:40:06.340 Of the abuse, she says, I felt my brain change. 0.95

00:40:09.160 I felt it almost calcify, and the world is never the same.

00:40:13.060 And it's just the list of, and I should also say that the kinds of things that she says that he put her through, other women who also dated him say the same thing. And so it's a lot of the same kind of stuff. Like other women that she talks to have said that he branded her or like carved things into their body. Like it's horrifying allegations.

00:40:34.640 And so I should mention that Warner, he denies these allegations and he says that Wood has been contacting and coercing women into saying they were abused by him.

00:40:43.400 He is currently suing Wood and her Phoenix Rising contributor, Ilma Gore.

00:40:48.860 According to Time, he is accusing the women of a, quote, conspiracy in service of which they supposedly, quote, secretly recruited, coordinated and pressured prospective accusers to emerge simultaneously with allegations of rape and abuse against Warner.

00:41:02.260 Yeah, I find it interesting that we have like 16 women at least coming out around the same time.

00:41:11.280 And we're, as a society, it seems so much more ready to be like, but there's this video of her at 18 saying she was into it, right?

00:41:19.400 So that's all lies.

00:41:20.800 She manufactured this whole thing.

00:41:24.020 And he is downtrodden.

00:41:26.100 And once again, the one that is getting unwarranted.

00:41:30.140 Exactly. 1.00

00:41:30.620 Women don't make this kind of stuff up. 1.00

00:41:34.640 This idea that they would be simultaneously trying to come together to come up with these lies about him. 1.00

00:41:41.880 Why?

00:41:42.680 Like, who would do that?

00:41:44.400 Who would want the kind of scrutiny that comes with being a public survivor of this kind of abuse?

00:41:49.780 Who would welcome that into their lives? 0.99

00:41:52.000 Some of these women are also, you know, not public figures. 1.00

00:41:55.320 People don't make this kind of thing up. 0.99

00:41:57.320 It is so rare for people to make up allegations of this kind of abuse that it just, let alone 16 different people, it just doesn't hold water.

00:42:09.300 It just isn't the way it works.

00:42:11.140 And again, probably more than 16 that's coming out.

00:42:14.060 But the conversation is, too, that the actual events and abuse were so similar to each other.

00:42:20.260 Even the Game of Thrones actress, Esme Bianca, I think is her name, she had similar stories to Wood.

00:42:26.900 being deprived of food, being electrocuted. There are so many things. It's like, this is beyond

00:42:32.940 just maybes. And I do remember that he had one partner who actually was like, that didn't happen

00:42:38.260 to me. And people latched onto that story so hard. And it was kind of like, but that doesn't mean

00:42:44.060 anything. It doesn't mean it just negates the entirety of the story of who he is at this point

00:42:49.380 in time. And I can't stand this because it also comes back to the point of demonizing these women

00:42:55.000 and shaming them in every way possible,

00:42:57.440 taking any work of art that they did.

00:42:59.160 So as actors who may have portrayed a nude scene 1.00

00:43:02.540 at any point in time, see, she's a slut. 1.00

00:43:04.760 How do you, she, obviously she knew 1.00

00:43:06.440 what she was getting into.

00:43:07.220 This whole level of conversations

00:43:08.960 where they just completely try to discredit someone

00:43:11.800 based on this and really feeling like, 1.00

00:43:14.480 obviously these women are doing it for attention 1.00

00:43:16.300 when it actually hurt a lot of their careers. 0.97

00:43:18.260 I've been Rachel Woods for a long time

00:43:19.580 was out of so many things, out of projects

00:43:22.300 because of the trauma alone.

00:43:23.860 Yeah. So he did have a ex-partner say he was always nice to me. And I'm not going to discount what she's saying. But as we know, you know, someone being nice to you doesn't mean that they are never abusive to other people. And so people absolutely latched on to that. And you're absolutely right that it certainly has not helped the careers or the trajectories of the people who are speaking out.

00:43:46.880 and it's just like

00:43:48.680 that's not how it works

00:43:49.860 like people don't lie

00:43:51.460 about this kind of thing

00:43:52.080 it does not help

00:43:52.660 it hurt Evan Rachel Wood

00:43:54.420 to come out

00:43:55.000 she risked a lot

00:43:56.500 to come out

00:43:57.140 and this idea that

00:43:58.800 oh they're doing it

00:43:59.360 for attention

00:43:59.760 who would want

00:44:00.580 this kind of attention

00:44:01.340 who?

00:44:02.580 Right

00:44:03.060 and also let's talk about

00:44:04.040 the fact that Warner

00:44:04.740 is not in jail

00:44:05.520 Exactly

00:44:06.900 He's thriving 0.99

00:44:07.660 he was on a damn 1.00

00:44:08.960 Kanye West show 1.00

00:44:10.240 Ugh

00:44:10.660 I

00:44:11.200 I hate it 0.96

00:44:12.680 I hate it 0.72

00:44:13.260 So you might be wondering

00:44:16.180 well, okay, in what way is this a tech issue?

00:44:19.560 And so there is one specific incident in the abuse

00:44:22.680 that Wood talks about that I want to focus on right now.

00:44:25.400 And that is the music video

00:44:26.600 for Warner's song, Heart-Shaped Glasses.

00:44:29.240 That music video features Evan Rachel Wood.

00:44:31.940 She was in that video when she was 19 years old.

00:44:34.960 And he kind of casts her as a modern day Lolita

00:44:37.600 because apparently the story goes

00:44:39.600 that she was wearing these heart-shaped sunglasses

00:44:41.300 at the party where they met.

00:44:42.820 And Lolita wears heart-shaped sunglasses in the book.

00:44:46.180 And so in the documentary, Wood says of the music video, we were doing things that were not what was pitched to me.

00:44:53.040 We had discussed a simulated sex scene, but once the cameras were rolling, he started penetrating me for real.

00:44:58.340 And she goes on to say, it was a really traumatizing experience filming the video.

00:45:03.320 I didn't know how to advocate for myself or how to say no because I had been conditioned and trained to never talk back, to just soldier through.

00:45:10.780 I felt disgusting, like I had done something shameful.

00:45:13.460 and I could tell the crew was very uncomfortable

00:45:15.660 and nobody knew what to do. 0.74

00:45:17.640 I was coerced into a commercial sex act

00:45:19.740 under false pretenses.

00:45:21.140 That was the first crime committed against me 0.58

00:45:23.140 and I was essentially raped on camera.

00:45:25.860 And so, according to Wood,

00:45:28.000 the music video for Heart Shaped Glasses

00:45:30.100 is actually a video of her rape

00:45:32.420 and that video is available,

00:45:34.480 not to mention monetized,

00:45:36.300 on the platform YouTube as we speak.

00:45:38.720 Anybody who wants to go see it can look it up.

00:45:41.340 And so Warner's campus,

00:45:42.380 They deny these allegations, and they say that Wood was coherent and involved in the planning of the video.

00:45:47.440 They say, of all the false claims that Rachel Evan Wood has made about Brian Warner,

00:45:51.700 her imaginative retelling of the making of the Heart-Shaped Glasses music video 15 years ago

00:45:56.040 is the most brazen and easy to disprove because there were multiple witnesses.

00:46:00.180 So they maintain that the scenes in that video were actually simulated.

00:46:03.760 However, Rolling Stone spoke to a crew member from the video shoot under the condition of anonymity

00:46:09.460 who corroderated Wood's claims,

00:46:11.020 saying, I do believe that there were some moments

00:46:13.280 of actual intercourse.

00:46:15.200 And so that, for me, is really how this becomes

00:46:18.140 a tech issue and a tech accountability issue,

00:46:20.380 is that, according to Wood,

00:46:23.420 YouTube is promoting housing and monetizing

00:46:27.620 a video of where she says she was being sexually assaulted. 1.00

00:46:30.660 And frankly, I'm inclined to believe her. 0.72

00:46:32.760 And so the question is,

00:46:34.060 what is YouTube going to do about this?

00:46:35.920 Are they going to just allow a video of a sexual assault to be on their platform and continue to profit off of it?

00:46:44.080 I would say if that's the choice they're making, it's pretty questionable.

00:46:47.660 Yeah, I'm afraid to ask, but is that the choice they're making?

00:46:54.100 I, you know, YouTube, they quickly took the video down and then they made a donation to anti-rape organizations.

00:47:01.120 Oh, wait, just kidding. They didn't do any of that.

00:47:02.720 They basically, so there's a change.org petition with over 50,000 signatures calling for YouTube

00:47:10.360 to remove the video and Evan Rachel would share this petition and they pretty much have signaled

00:47:15.360 that they're not going to take it down. Their spokesperson, Jack Malone says, we're monitoring

00:47:19.660 the situation closely and we'll take appropriate action if we determine there is a breach of our

00:47:24.340 creator responsibility guidelines. And so this is really why I see this as a tech accountability

00:47:29.320 issue. You know, YouTube, like most online platforms, have community guidelines that

00:47:34.340 users have to follow. And according to those community guidelines, content that includes

00:47:38.620 quote, non-consensual sex acts and unwanted sexualization is very much against their own

00:47:44.660 stated community guidelines. The community guidelines and terms of service says that

00:47:47.960 a user can have monetization suspended or have their entire channel terminated if their behavior

00:47:53.720 away from the platform harms YouTube users. And so to me, it seems pretty clear they have

00:47:59.220 publicly stated that their community guidelines prevent non-consensual sex acts or unwanted

00:48:04.700 sexualization in their content. And here we have a video where Evan Rachel Wood says this is exactly

00:48:10.060 that. And yet they're continuing to host this video and profit off of it because we know that's

00:48:15.620 how YouTube makes their money. It's from advertisements that are on the content hosted

00:48:20.000 on their platform. And so, yeah, I think that YouTube is really expecting people to only

00:48:26.440 grapple with this as a, quote, celebrity story, not an issue of YouTube and their own adherence

00:48:32.900 to what they say their community guidelines are. And, you know, I really take issue with that. I

00:48:38.160 really have not seen a lot of folks in the tech community talking about this story as an example,

00:48:45.240 a really clear example of YouTube, I think, failing to create a reasonably safe environment

00:48:51.340 for its users and just for the world.

00:48:54.320 Right.

00:48:55.020 And out of curiosity,

00:48:56.160 because I don't know much about how YouTube works,

00:48:58.700 not tech savvy,

00:48:59.800 is Warner making money from this as well

00:49:02.620 when he gets all these views?

00:49:04.120 Oh, that is a good question.

00:49:05.320 I actually wouldn't really,

00:49:06.600 I'm actually not totally sure

00:49:08.200 if he specifically is making money

00:49:09.820 from these videos being hosted,

00:49:11.980 but I do know that he has a YouTube account.

00:49:14.380 And so just how monetization works,

00:49:16.620 I wouldn't be surprised.

00:49:17.620 I'm not able to say one way or another,

00:49:19.120 but I wouldn't be surprised.

00:49:20.060 I checked to see if the video was still on the platform before we started this talk.

00:49:25.080 And, you know, right before the video played, there's ads.

00:49:28.400 And so I can imagine, I wouldn't be surprised if he is making money from that as another income stream.

00:49:33.880 And yeah, I guess that's really the crux of why I wanted to talk about this is that this is what happens when women and other traditionally marginalized people are not really meaningfully centered and reflected in tech. 0.60

00:49:50.820 It allows, one, platforms to harm us and make money from our harm and be able to do so without any kind of real accountability.

00:49:58.760 And two, it allows for, there are so many tech publications that are missing an opportunity to spotlight this as a tech issue in terms of the harm that YouTube is allowing to be spread on their platform.

00:50:13.400 Right.

00:50:14.020 I mean, that's the whole big conversation is that who is making money off of someone's trauma?

00:50:18.120 And this is absolutely what is happening is they're making money off of it and giving views and giving credibility to the abuser once again as a musician.

00:50:27.500 And this is such a whole other conversation of like you have a responsibility in making sure that people are not continually re-traumatized and or being harmed by your content.

00:50:38.840 And yes, if it is your platform, you are responsible.

00:50:42.220 Point blank.

00:50:43.420 Exactly.

00:50:43.780 And I also think, you know, YouTube and their community guidelines to say, oh, we can take things down if there is a confession or a conviction.

00:50:51.440 YouTube is owned by Google, right?

00:50:53.300 Google is one of the biggest companies in the world.

00:50:55.400 And how things work in the platform accountability space, when a huge player in the space does something, it creates pressure for other people to do things.

00:51:04.540 And so if Google was to do something, that would create the conditions for other smaller platforms to follow suit because big platforms really do set the tone.

00:51:12.700 And so I believe that a company like Google, who owns YouTube, should be able to say, we don't need to wait for Brian Warner to confess that he, you know, sexually assaulted Evan Rachel Wood on the side of this video.

00:51:27.120 We don't have to wait for a legal conviction.

00:51:29.580 We are Google, and we can set the standard for what is and is not appropriate on our platform.

00:51:33.980 And a video of someone being sexually assaulted is not appropriate.

00:51:37.740 I believe that they're really just throwing up their hands and saying, not our problem.

00:51:43.840 Call us when he confesses.

00:51:45.140 Call us if there's a conviction.

00:51:46.560 We're going to just ignore this and hope that you do, too.

00:51:49.900 I think they are absolutely just abdicating responsibility.

00:51:54.380 And guess what?

00:51:55.280 You don't get to do that when you're Google.

00:51:57.540 When you're a huge company like Google, you have a responsibility that is very, very powerful.

00:52:02.740 And you don't get to just say, it's not our issue.

00:52:05.760 We're going to wait for the courts to figure it out.

00:52:07.240 we're going to wait for him to confess when you're Google.

00:52:09.900 That is so irresponsible.

00:52:11.800 And it sets up a dynamic where other platforms can follow suit. 0.71

00:52:16.520 So it really is irresponsible, cowardly, and also just harmful.

00:52:22.240 And again, they're making money from this inaction.

00:52:25.780 They're continuing to just let this video rack up millions and millions and millions of views

00:52:30.240 that are being made from a video of someone being sexually assaulted.

00:52:33.580 And let's also point out that it's a video, not the entire artist, not his whole genre of music. One video. That was the request. It shouldn't be that hard.

00:52:45.060 Exactly. And I guess I just, I mean, yeah, it shouldn't be this hard. And I want so desperately to believe that a different world for survivors is possible. In the scheme of things, so small, asking for one music video to be removed. In the scheme of things, what is that?

00:53:04.880 You know, I feel like that is such a small ask that a survivor has clearly made.

00:53:11.300 And they're just able to say no.

00:53:14.940 I want to believe in a world where survivors can expect more.

00:53:18.140 Survivors can expect dignity and respect and to be listened to and meaningfully centered.

00:53:23.120 And I believe Google has a chance to do that, that they're just giving away.

00:53:29.140 Right. And it's exactly what you were saying, that this is a question of believing women, respecting women. Let's say it was consensual, just for the sake of argument. And she's like, I don't like this because whatever happened beforehand in this relationship, it was traumatic. Please take it off. That should be enough. That should be enough.

00:53:50.860 without having to regurgitate the same experiences

00:53:54.180 and tell them exactly how it hurt you,

00:53:55.940 which is also traumatizing.

00:53:57.580 It shouldn't have to be that we have to put on a fanfare

00:54:00.080 for someone to believe that we are in pain, point blank.

00:54:03.600 Yeah, I mean, we shouldn't have to scream just to be heard.

00:54:07.840 You know, in this week's episode of my podcast, 0.99

00:54:10.680 There Are No Girls on the Internet,

00:54:11.960 we talked to a survivor and an advocate, Alison Turcos,

00:54:15.780 who was sexually assaulted in a Lyft.

00:54:17.540 And she talks so eloquently about how she is expected to regurgitate the most traumatic, painful thing that happened to her over and over and over again, and that we create a world where that is supposed to be the pathway for survivors to get justice.

00:54:33.540 And I don't think that survivors, A, owe you their stories, or B, should have to relive this pain just to get anyone to do something.

00:54:42.940 YouTube has the power.

00:54:44.240 They could decide to take this one video down tomorrow.

00:54:47.820 They take things down all the time

00:54:49.620 for all different kinds of reasons.

00:54:51.460 And I believe that making a survivor

00:54:53.900 retell her pain in this way to then do nothing

00:54:57.560 is just, survivors deserve better.

00:54:59.980 Survivors should be able to expect better.

00:55:01.920 Yes.

00:55:03.180 Yeah, I mean, that's an excellent point

00:55:04.460 because as someone who used to like

00:55:05.700 upload YouTube videos a lot,

00:55:07.200 they'd get taken down all the time

00:55:08.600 because the music was too close to other music.

00:55:11.580 So it's like we're clearly...

00:55:14.540 I've been thinking this whole time as we've been talking about this,

00:55:17.320 the messages that young girls are picking up from witnessing this,

00:55:20.400 from a celebrity that they see, and this is the response that she gets.

00:55:24.480 And, you know, we care more about copyright infringement than survivors

00:55:29.560 and how that influences you and what you think is normal

00:55:32.800 and what if you're going to report,

00:55:35.280 which again, that is very personal and complicated

00:55:38.300 and does have a lot of fallout often.

00:55:41.800 But also just this idea of men getting this kind of genius artistic card

00:55:49.580 and the women that they've left behind,

00:55:52.920 this path of trauma that they left behind that we've determined is okay

00:55:56.980 because we've got this art out of it and that's what it takes.

00:56:00.500 And I've done some work in acting before and it is very,

00:56:04.440 you get that messaging hardcore where it's like,

00:56:07.480 but this is going to be great

00:56:08.640 and this is going to launch your career

00:56:09.780 and this is what it takes.

00:56:11.900 This is what you have to do

00:56:13.040 because it's so competitive.

00:56:14.760 And oftentimes it's just like

00:56:16.420 an excuse to take advantage of you

00:56:18.340 and then you'll never hear from them again.

00:56:20.760 God, like if you were an,

00:56:22.480 so that's how it is

00:56:23.480 in a lot of entertainment industries.

00:56:25.140 Let's say that you were an accountant

00:56:26.340 and someone was like,

00:56:27.360 well, Joe is a really gifted accountant.

00:56:30.080 So you're just going to have to put up with him

00:56:32.020 sexually assaulting you 0.97

00:56:33.640 and physically abusing you 1.00

00:56:34.900 and treating you horribly

00:56:35.840 because he's just a really talented accountant.

00:56:38.640 Uh, no.

00:56:39.660 And it should be the same way across industries. 0.94

00:56:42.300 There shouldn't be these huge carve-outs for men

00:56:45.220 to get away with abusive behavior

00:56:47.320 and have that abusive behavior be repackaged

00:56:50.700 and sold back to us as genius.

00:56:52.880 No.

00:56:53.700 I completely agree that whether you are a musician,

00:56:57.500 an actor, or an accountant,

00:56:59.380 there should be some clear standards

00:57:01.180 for how you are expected to behave.

00:57:03.840 And, you know, a music video is a workplace, you know, that has a crew, it has people who

00:57:09.560 are paid to be there.

00:57:10.840 And, you know, there's just no excuse for that.

00:57:13.640 And I'm unwilling to accept that that's, you know, the marker of genius or that we have

00:57:19.080 to put up with men's, powerful men's bad or abusive behavior to get great art.

00:57:25.160 No, I'm just unwilling.

00:57:26.180 That's unacceptable to me.

00:57:27.640 Agreed.

00:57:29.760 Agreed.

00:57:30.500 I can't wait.

00:57:31.240 We got to have a venting session on one of these.

00:57:32.880 I need it.

00:57:34.380 Obviously, I need it.

00:57:35.780 I feel like we all do.

00:57:37.140 I can feel it in me.

00:57:40.280 Well, in the meantime,

00:57:41.800 thanks so much for bringing this topic to us, Bridget,

00:57:45.040 and giving it the nuance that it deserves.

00:57:47.420 Always appreciated.

00:57:48.640 Where can the good listeners find you?

00:57:50.340 Well, I would love it if you listen to my podcast. 1.00

00:57:52.400 There are no girls on the internet.

00:57:53.980 Not all of our conversations are about heavy, sad issues,

00:57:57.980 but we would love to have you listen.

00:57:59.760 You can check it out on this very network, iHeartRadio.

00:58:01.880 You can follow me on Instagram at BridgetMarieNDC or on Twitter at BridgetMarie.

00:58:06.000 Yes, and definitely do that.

00:58:07.700 And we can't wait to talk some more, Bridget.

00:58:10.640 Maybe we got some other things in the works coming up.

00:58:13.340 Very exciting.

00:58:14.260 Very exciting.

00:58:15.360 So look out for that, listeners.

00:58:17.520 If you would like to email us, you can.

00:58:19.740 Our email is stephpdmomstuff at iheartmedia.com.

00:58:21.840 You can find us on Twitter at MomStuffPodcast or on Instagram at stuffhponder of Told You.

00:58:25.180 Thanks, as always, to our super producer, Christina.

00:58:27.240 We love you, Christina.

00:58:28.680 Yes.

00:58:29.220 And thanks to you for listening.

00:58:30.400 Stuff One Never Told You is a production of iHeartRadio.

00:58:32.160 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

00:58:34.620 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

00:58:47.680 I survived nine months in captivity,

00:58:50.880 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:58:54.280 what should have destroyed them.

00:58:56.260 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:58:59.560 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:59:07.540 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:59:11.340 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:59:19.280 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:59:24.680 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:59:33.340 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:59:41.600 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:59:43.360 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:59:48.760 I'm Nick Turturro. You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's Black

00:59:54.660 Klansman. And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, I deliver pizza

00:59:59.160 to a new guest. I've shared a slice with everyone from Seth Rollins. What are you doing in my belt?

01:00:04.120 To Bill Burr. I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am.

01:00:10.300 And now we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Turturro.

01:00:14.800 It's called happiness.

01:00:16.040 Delivering happiness.

01:00:17.120 And many, many more.

01:00:18.560 Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, and listen now.

01:00:24.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

01:00:26.440 Guaranteed human.

There Are No Girls on the Internet - April 16, 2024

Marylin Manson’s abuse allegations are a tech issue - STUFF MOM NEVER TOLD YOU

Episode Stats

Transcript