There Are No Girls on the Internet - Meet the woman who went undercover to infiltrate white supremacists (Live from Union Stage!)

00:00:00.000 This is an iHeart Podcast.

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00:00:05.180 Behind every night spent making the kids' lunches,

00:00:08.020 there's a lot of suspense.

00:00:09.440 Will they finally eat the veggies?

00:00:10.940 Will the pesto survive the first bite?

00:00:12.980 Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all?

00:00:17.020 And will you finish Episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers?

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00:00:55.400 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:01:04.060 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:01:12.300 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

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00:01:19.460 I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:01:26.780 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:01:32.380 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:01:38.200 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:01:43.380 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:55.540 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:03.660 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:06.360 today's episode of there are no girls on the internet was actually taped live from digital

00:02:13.420 voids our connected future event a few weeks ago so if you don't know digital void they are a great

00:02:17.980 multimedia project that studies the way that the internet and technology shapes all of our brains

00:02:22.180 as humans and at their event i was so excited to sit down with amanda moore amanda's story is

00:02:28.880 fascinating she worked in live events until covet hit and then she lost her job broke and struggling 0.99

00:02:34.460 with how to get connected with financial services

00:02:36.200 like unemployment, she did what anyone would do, 0.84

00:02:38.860 created an alias, and went undercover 0.96

00:02:41.180 into the world of white supremacists

00:02:43.320 and far-right extremists for a year.

00:02:46.440 Okay, so maybe not everybody would do that, just Amanda.

00:02:49.820 Amanda fed stories to journalists

00:02:51.520 that helped shine a light on the inner workings

00:02:53.500 of the underbelly of white supremacists.

00:02:56.040 She was at the Capitol during the insurrection on January 6th,

00:02:59.360 and the night that we sat down together

00:03:00.620 at Washington, D.C.'s Union stage,

00:03:02.380 the trucker convoy that started up in Canada, was actively circling around D.C. trying to

00:03:07.800 create chaos, which I feel like is pretty fitting. Now, Amanda's story is a great reminder of how

00:03:14.000 much dangerous, difficult work of making our democracy safer is being done by women. So let's 1.00

00:03:19.680 listen. Oh, that's my theme song.

00:03:32.380 remember me i am bridget todd i am the host and creator of iheart radios uh there are no girls

00:03:44.840 on the internet a podcast where we explore oh all right i'll take that yeah that's a smattering of

00:03:49.420 applause i have to say this is my first ever live podcast taping so if i seem a little nervous that

00:03:55.320 is why um you know on the show if you don't know what it's about we explore all the different ways

00:04:00.640 that marginalized folks, so women, people of color, trans folks, queer folks, all the different

00:04:06.320 ways that we show up or don't show up online. And, you know, a reality of this work is that

00:04:11.020 time and time again, so much of the work making internet spaces safer, better, more inclusive

00:04:16.880 is being done by women and other marginalized folks. And it is work that is dangerous. It is 0.98

00:04:22.760 personally costly. And we hardly ever recognize that work. And that's one of the reasons I'm so

00:04:27.840 excited to be talking to my first ever live podcast guest, Amanda. Give it up for Amanda. 0.99

00:04:36.740 This is also my first live podcast experience, so we're in this together.

00:04:42.000 We got this. So Amanda, you spent a year of your life being embedded with some of the worst sort

00:04:49.940 of far-right extremist fringe folks, folks like, give us a few of the names of the folks that you

00:04:55.640 were kicking it with so here's the worst part is that you won't know their names but they're busy

00:05:00.220 writing legislation but they are like former members of patriot front and identity europa

00:05:05.480 and other hate groups that you would recognize so how did this how did you come to spend a year

00:05:11.240 of your life doing this take us take us back how did this start um so i've always had an interest

00:05:17.860 in politics i was raised evangelical my parents are both trump voters um and i was a libertarian

00:05:24.220 until I was like 26, which is super embarrassing.

00:05:29.160 And a lot of people that I knew in the libertarian movement

00:05:31.060 ended up moving into the extreme far right.

00:05:35.160 Some are in jail.

00:05:36.400 Some are, you know, proud boys who should probably be in jail.

00:05:41.360 Some, you know, like I was very,

00:05:43.640 I was not friends with Chris Cantwell,

00:05:45.380 the crying Nazi from Charlottesville,

00:05:46.840 but we knew people in common.

00:05:48.980 And so I've always been able to kind of move within that world.

00:05:51.860 and my job was just completely belly up i'm in live events so it was you know it ceased to exist

00:05:59.040 during covet i had a lot of free time so i i went to the stop the steel rallies i kind of just walked

00:06:04.240 to them and you know recorded whatever and so that meant i was at the insurrection so i did the

00:06:09.480 insurrection i was like oh shit this is this is real and we're really going to do this now and

00:06:14.180 it kind of escalated from there without me uh intending for it to something that you write

00:06:19.720 about so interestingly is, you know, we all know what happened here in D.C. on January 6th, but you

00:06:25.400 actually talk about the way that the climate that was fostered at some of the earlier events and

00:06:30.480 earlier rallies in D.C., you know, by people like the Proud Boys really did sort of lead to what we

00:06:37.520 saw on the 6th. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, what were you seeing in the lead-up

00:06:42.020 to what happened on the 6th at some of these events? There's a moment that will live in my

00:06:47.380 mine for the rest of my life i was in front of the supreme court it was december uh the december

00:06:52.060 stopped the steel rally in 2020 and this woman told me i was almost assaulted at the november

00:07:00.160 rally and i asked her what happened and she said she was uh walking back to the trump hotel and

00:07:06.160 her phone had died and uh some guys ran past her and she she just took off running and that was it

00:07:14.660 that was the whole story. That was the story of her near assault. And it was incredibly strange

00:07:19.460 to me at the time. And she said, you know, she had to be like maybe 50. And she said, I marched

00:07:24.380 the Proud Boys last night until two in the morning. And you might recall the Proud Boys like

00:07:28.140 stabbed people when they were doing that. So it really, it really just struck me that she was

00:07:35.600 so afraid of everybody here and everything in the situation of just being in this liberal wasteland

00:07:42.180 where we're 94% for Joe Biden you know that she thought that walking past her was almost

00:07:50.240 assaulting her and later that night I was in front of Harry's after another stabbing and

00:07:58.220 we like I watched all the Proud Boys lineup and they started marching and chanting and Alex Jones

00:08:06.160 was like giving us this pep talk you know 1776 1776 and then uh the probably sort of like going

00:08:13.220 off in groups of eight to ten as though they were like going off to war and so like grandpas are

00:08:18.640 like telling them good luck thank you thank you thank you for your service and they're just walking

00:08:22.560 around downtown dc like terrorizing whoever they see and it's you know it's it's so discovered

00:08:27.260 from reality but there was this it felt like a coordinated campaign to make everybody who flew

00:08:33.560 here and came here from out of town whether they were from a real like city or from you know like

00:08:38.280 the middle of nowhere it didn't matter to just feel like everybody here was against them and

00:08:42.460 this this is antifa you're all antifa 100 you know if you're here physically present you are

00:08:48.200 like an antifa super soldier um and so just you know seeing that that coordinate effort was bizarre

00:08:54.780 yeah it's something i like about your work is that it really grounds it in this idea that dc

00:09:02.100 is a city where people live and that i think that for a lot of people dc is an abstraction they

00:09:07.140 don't understand that people actually live here and i have lived here most of my life and you know

00:09:11.580 i still have friends from different cities who would swear that in 2020 dc burned to the ground

00:09:19.500 and like ceases to exist i'll be like oh how are you out there in dc and i think that your work

00:09:24.280 helps us see that this is a real city people live here it's it's you know and so i i i really

00:09:29.880 appreciate that. You know, when you think about how people report about extremist movements and

00:09:36.340 these extremist figures, what is something that folks leave out? What is something that you wish

00:09:41.000 that people knew about how these groups actually operate? I think there's a lot of coverage of what

00:09:47.600 the final result is without a lot of coverage of like that lead up. When I first wrote about my

00:09:53.880 experience January 6th and the lead up to it and talking about people feeling like they were

00:09:59.060 targeted just because they were like a Trump supporter within DC and not just targeted for 0.97

00:10:03.440 people to be like you suck go away but like targeted for like actual like violence um a lot 0.62

00:10:10.260 of people reach out to me were like I had no idea it was like that in DC you know like a lot of 0.99

00:10:13.340 people didn't realize that Bowser told us to stay home our mayor told us to stay home and to not go

00:10:17.600 out to not counter protest and she told us that three times and it's you know in my opinion it's

00:10:22.120 possible that like January 6th could have possibly not happened if more people had left their houses

00:10:26.620 in november december and um i just think you know something is missing because i am like i've also

00:10:35.200 lived most of my life here and if i can see that failure and a lot of these journalists who are

00:10:41.240 writing about this they live here and why can't they see it you know i don't know i don't know

00:10:45.620 if it's like an outlet issue where they're not allowed to publish something like that but

00:10:48.620 um there's there's a lot that like goes on um i think within the way that movements are organized

00:10:55.580 when people get pushed back they get really upset um I mean look at these truckers now they're

00:11:00.920 literally like crying because people are giving them the finger and I am someone that the truckers

00:11:05.640 told to smile actually on the side of the road so um you know I think like that component is

00:11:11.920 missing like how how these extremist actions affect people um before it becomes violent crimes

00:11:17.360 and like the situations which they live um and just how people people interact another thing

00:11:22.720 like I'm just like continuing to go on and on but like another thing that I've noticed is that for

00:11:27.280 me you know I spent COVID you know flying around the country like hanging out with some of the

00:11:33.320 worst people but you know we were hanging out we were at bars and that camaraderie and that

00:11:38.840 that sense of companionship that a lot of people were missing in 2020 and 2021 you know we weren't

00:11:43.940 missing I mean I was deeply missing it because I hated everybody around me but everyone else was

00:11:49.360 having like a great time you know um so i think too like that's been underreported um a great

00:11:56.420 deal and i don't really know why because to me it seems pretty obvious you know if you're going

00:12:00.460 out every weekend and you're having a blast and covid isn't real of course you know you're going

00:12:05.740 to want to like adopt whatever you believe to the people that are around you you want to fit in

00:12:10.060 yeah that's something that you write so compellingly about is this idea of the camaraderie

00:12:16.500 and the relationship building in, you know, in my day job, a lot of it is thinking and writing

00:12:21.240 about conspiracy theories, how people get wrapped up in them. And a big part of it that we don't

00:12:26.200 really talk about is the relationships that, you know, I know I have friends from high school who

00:12:31.940 are deep into QAnon. And a big thing about it is that like, they are in their day to day lives,

00:12:39.260 maybe they're not being supported, maybe they're not being told that they smart, that they're

00:12:42.820 smart maybe they're they don't feel very smart on a day-to-day basis and now someone is telling

00:12:46.900 them not only are you smart you're seeing something that no one else sees you're smarter than everyone

00:12:52.000 around you and how seductive that is and so I don't know I think that your work really helps

00:12:56.420 us understand that so much of extremism and why people get wrapped up in it can really be about

00:13:02.220 the relationships and the camaraderie yeah yeah thank you um I mean you know I like I was raised

00:13:09.140 evangelical and like a lot of being raised evangelical is being told like you know something

00:13:13.260 nobody else knows and you have to tell everyone so they understand and you know like people don't

00:13:19.940 believe the rapture is going to happen but when it happens you know you'll be up there in heaven

00:13:23.920 and everybody who ever laughs at you will be down here and I see a lot of that especially within the

00:13:29.620 QAnon community um there would be times people would talk to you within QAnon I'd be like oh

00:13:34.220 am i eight years old again are we back in church is that what this is because it feels like it

00:13:39.640 so yeah yeah i think um that sense of of we have figured something out that nobody else can we've

00:13:45.960 cracked the code and you know having a great time while doing it is is so important understanding

00:13:51.300 why is this happening yeah i mean it's i think it's one of those things that's maybe difficult

00:13:56.780 to acknowledge because it's a little bit complex um you know you mentioned earlier when we first

00:14:01.540 started talking that some of the names of the far-right extremists that you were embedded with

00:14:07.260 during this time in your life, we wouldn't know their names. And I guess one of my questions is,

00:14:12.460 are there ways that you see these fringe movements and fringe leaders finding their way into more

00:14:19.700 traditional mainstream right-wing politics? They're writing legislation and they work at

00:14:25.120 foreign embassies so i think they're there damn like what can you really say to that

00:14:31.880 let's take a quick break 0.94

00:14:35.960 behind every night spent making the kids lunches there's a lot of suspense will they finally eat

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00:14:52.940 come home at all and will you finish episode eight before you're done slicing the cucumbers

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00:15:39.420 that's iheartadvertising.com when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine

00:15:46.880 months i survived and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed

00:15:53.260 them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting

00:16:00.820 voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live

00:16:08.680 through the unthinkable i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started

00:16:15.880 feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted

00:16:23.700 stalked controlled and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them

00:16:29.560 they're stories about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor files with

00:16:35.580 elizabeth smart on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts

00:16:41.460 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:16:48.320 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

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00:17:40.260 See you between the pages.

00:17:47.480 And we're back.

00:17:49.340 So, you know, when you were doing this work, when you were embedded with these people,

00:17:53.700 did you ever have a time where someone said something to you and you almost slipped?

00:17:58.780 And you almost, like, what was it like to be embedded with these people?

00:18:05.060 you know you've got far right fringe people blowing up your phone texting you for a date

00:18:11.560 stuff like that like what was that like and did you ever have a moment where you almost slipped

00:18:16.620 somebody said something to you that was so out of pocket that you almost were like I'm gonna let 0.98

00:18:20.900 this whole ruse fall by the wayside yeah but it's like so stupid it's um I dealt with so much for 0.89

00:18:29.200 so long and i i i so i my first undercover thing was in november of 2020 and then in august of 0.89

00:18:37.960 2021 i flew to portland oregon to go on a date with a former member of patriot front who again

00:18:44.460 is helping write legislation and um he was like there's gonna be a fight blm and antifa are gonna

00:18:53.140 to fight the Proud Boys and we'll have a picnic and we'll watch it. And I was like, is this

00:19:00.060 like the Battle of the Run? And he was like, that's the spirit. So I flew out and the whole

00:19:07.060 thing was a bust because the Proud Boys ended up going into a Kmart parking lot and then

00:19:12.180 tear gassing themselves. So we couldn't have our picnic. But we did spend eight and a half

00:19:20.200 hours in his minivan talking and um we were also like walking around Portland and we were walking

00:19:27.320 by um some tents and he started talking about homeless people and I was like oh my god this is

00:19:31.400 like it's so humiliating and embarrassing and I just people can hear you talk and I wish that

00:19:38.340 nobody could hear you talk um and he was like you know the homeless they could really be uh good for

00:19:46.260 us because when i was at january 6th i noticed all of the homeless people had american flags 0.99

00:19:52.560 on their tents and i was just like you fucking idiot we put those there i like i couldn't 0.99

00:19:58.780 believe that this man actually thought people who don't have homes went out and bought 0.99

00:20:04.220 300 trump flags in american flags like put them up on their tents and i i it took me like a minute

00:20:12.680 to recover from it because it's just like how how do you like what what about Trump's policies

00:20:18.680 made you believe that like people who don't have homes are like that's our guy and he was like yeah

00:20:23.380 they'll fight because they believe in the cause I'm like I don't think that's true and my response

00:20:28.560 was so aggressive and I because I'm like from here you know like I'm not like the docile like 0.99

00:20:33.520 trad wife like nobody nobody's falling for that trick um and I was just like no that's so stupid 0.99

00:20:40.020 literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Like, no, this is not, we, we put those, we put those 0.99

00:20:44.120 flags there. And he's like, are you sure? And I'm like, I live there. Like, yes, I'm sure.

00:20:51.060 And like, that's the thing that broke me, but it's, it's weird how you're able to like

00:20:54.760 compartmentalize things for so long. And then something so stupid. I mean, that's like, 1.00

00:20:59.820 like, I want to be very clear. Like I, like the same guy, the first night I met him,

00:21:05.500 he asked me at a Turning Point USA event, which is supposed to be a mainstream conservative event.

00:21:09.280 And he asked me, what would you, you know, do if you were ruler of America?

00:21:13.640 And I didn't want to radicalize anybody.

00:21:15.460 So I always erred on the side of, like, kind of dumbing it down. 1.00

00:21:18.960 Like, I don't know, I'm just a stupid blonde idiot. 1.00

00:21:20.580 Ah, that's so cool. 1.00

00:21:21.700 Like, what would you do? 0.82

00:21:22.980 And he goes, I'm thinking, like, a friendlier Nazi Germany. 0.78

00:21:26.320 So that did not break me.

00:21:28.360 What broke me was this, like, idea that you really thought these people had bought these Trump flags and, like, decorated their tents. 1.00

00:21:34.560 Like, they're just so stupid. 1.00

00:21:36.700 and so um you know it's it's weird uh the things that like just dig into your brain when you're 1.00

00:21:43.200 doing it because you're you're able to like or I I mean obviously not everybody but like I was able

00:21:47.760 to just push so much aside and then that just like so you know that that's really the only time

00:21:54.060 another time a guy told me conservatives won't have phones anymore they're gonna take away our

00:21:58.620 phones T-Mobile AT&T Verizon it's coming and I was like do you want to tell me more and he pointed

00:22:04.800 at my phone and so I um I recorded everything I had like a second iphone my old iphone and I had

00:22:10.020 a uh wireless mic I put in my bra and the receiver was the iphone and you pointed it at my phone

00:22:15.820 and said your phone could be recording right now and I was like

00:22:18.920 but that's a little less you know like serious but I did almost be myself it was very

00:22:27.320 oh my god you're like oh well that one was a freebie oh that'd be so crazy my phone oh my god

00:22:36.080 did you have moments like that like I can only imagine this work was legitimately very scary at

00:22:41.720 times yeah I mean it probably should have been more scary I feel like I should have been more

00:22:48.440 worried you know I was docs I was docs in Fortan and um I was like doing like QAnon stuff and I was 1.00

00:22:54.320 doing like fascist stuff and so like you know like literal Nazis right and the QAnon people 0.55

00:23:01.540 figured me out from 4chan and went all around their telegram and I was like okay but like I'm 0.92

00:23:08.180 supposed to go to this event in Florida and we're having a hotel room party with three Hungarian

00:23:12.580 fascists and six American Nazis I could probably still go my friends are like no you really please

00:23:16.900 don't go please don't go and I'm like but I think I can go so you know I did not have the uh

00:23:24.720 wherewithal I don't think to uh to judge because I was gonna go I was gonna do it

00:23:28.420 um so you know I think yes like a normal person would have been like I'm flying to Portland I'm

00:23:36.080 going to go on this weird picnic date with this Nazi I'm getting in his car now we're driving 20

00:23:41.820 miles away. I should be worried. And I was like, well, this is great. What are we doing? 0.93

00:23:46.600 Where does this come from? That attitude you just described of like not being afraid and probably

00:23:53.300 maybe most people, I would be afraid. Most people will be afraid. But where do you think that comes

00:23:57.660 from in you that you didn't have that fear? I mean, it's all I've ever known. You know, my dad,

00:24:05.080 my dad's pastor he believes racist people from the dead I went to a QAnon event at my dad's

00:24:12.620 pastor's church so it just you know it's like comfortable it's it's not it's not scary or

00:24:22.660 foreign or like a concept that nobody you know that I don't understand to me it just is and

00:24:30.920 that's why it was so easy for me because I know the language and I know the culture um you know

00:24:37.540 I broke my arm halfway through it sucked I had to like tell my surgeon I was like she's like we

00:24:45.280 get you in for surgery on Monday and I was like okay so actually um are you familiar with the 0.99

00:24:49.540 concept that uh Hillary Clinton is a pedophile and eats children and only Donald Trump can stop 0.73

00:24:54.880 her and she was like what are you talking about I was like well I have to go to a QAnon event so 0.99

00:24:58.360 we can't do surgery. So I delayed surgery for like two weeks to go to this QAnon event.

00:25:02.360 People were praying in tongues on my arm. And like, most people I feel like could not handle

00:25:06.880 that. But to begin, just like, yeah, it's just literally, it's like being back in fifth grade.

00:25:11.140 This is normal, right? And so I think, I think my upbringing really helped make it not an issue

00:25:19.240 for me. So I know when you were embedded with these far right extremists, I was seeing reporting

00:25:26.760 from, I think, Mother Jones based on your sourcing.

00:25:30.140 And, you know, I really want to underscore that

00:25:32.560 it is so difficult for traditional journalists

00:25:35.500 to really get a firsthand account

00:25:38.180 of what's happening in a lot of these spaces.

00:25:40.020 And, you know, I think, was it a Trump donor

00:25:42.240 who was screaming white power?

00:25:44.420 I saw a video, that was your video.

00:25:46.640 So I guess my question is,

00:25:48.180 when you were doing this project,

00:25:50.800 did you find that people were,

00:25:54.240 or news outlets were excited to work with you or was it were they more kind of you know like oh

00:26:01.080 this i don't know if we can publish this like this is not what we want to publish like what was the

00:26:05.000 what was the vibe like around uh outlets reporting the things that you were sourcing from being

00:26:09.460 embedded with these communities i heard um from a lot of editors this is extremely cool um also

00:26:18.000 highly unethical so come back when you're done people did not want to work with me individual

00:26:23.140 journalists were okay with it I mean Zach knew I watched Zach get kicked out of an event with

00:26:30.320 Gorka in Tyson's corner so you know like I would message people who were at events that I was at

00:26:35.840 and and you know and obviously I grew up here so I do have friends who are journalists

00:26:39.980 but you know by and large everybody was like this is very neat but we literally cannot pay you to

00:26:47.940 write about it unless you're going to write about your with your real name attached it's like well

00:26:52.020 guess what um the whole time i was undercover i um went by frank on twitter with a picture

00:26:58.140 of a turtle so people assumed i was a man which was wonderful um but yeah you know people didn't

00:27:05.980 they didn't want to mess with it and i tried to rationalize i was like oh yeah it's unethical

00:27:10.080 because like you can't wear a mask like the things i went to you if you wear a mask you're a journalist

00:27:14.020 you're out um but you know that's not really what it was it's just lying to a nazi is unethical which

00:27:19.240 It's just wild to me.

00:27:24.680 More after a quick break.

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00:28:32.020 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:28:37.960 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,

00:28:44.120 pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the

00:28:48.720 same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:28:54.140 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm gonna have to look up

00:28:58.420 this story. I'm obsessed, so obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book

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00:30:23.800 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:30:33.020 So if you've ever wondered, I wonder what Bridget is up to when she's not making the podcast, then I have great news for you.

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00:31:02.500 Let's get right back into it. 0.99

00:31:08.680 So I read one of your pieces where you talked about how in the beginning you would just show up to these events and you didn't, I mean, like you were, you're a blonde woman.

00:31:18.000 You know, you're not asking too many questions.

00:31:20.360 A lot of people just assumed that you were one of them.

00:31:23.040 And I think that's so interesting that I think that the way that your work relies on being white and also your gender, that I think a lot of these people are just like, oh, this white blonde woman is hanging around.

00:31:37.680 Certainly she's one of us. 0.54

00:31:39.060 Certainly she can come to the next event with us.

00:31:41.920 Certainly we should introduce her to so-and-so and move her along the ranks.

00:31:46.300 And I think it's interesting how you basically just didn't challenge that.

00:31:51.480 You let them run with whatever assumption that they were going to have.

00:31:55.520 And that's what got you so deep into the middle and into the mix with these extremists.

00:32:02.480 Yeah, yeah.

00:32:03.800 Some of my friends who are not white would always comment.

00:32:07.380 And I'm like, you know, you can do it too.

00:32:08.980 But it's like a real commitment to the bit.

00:32:10.740 Because it's going to be like, well, my granddaughter says I'm racist, but you're here.

00:32:14.400 So let's take a picture.

00:32:16.500 It's like, oh, it's a good thing I never had to do.

00:32:18.740 um you know i was never intending to like have a personality undercover i i just went to cpac and

00:32:26.300 i was like well i'll just record some stuff and you know i was like like whoever like whatever

00:32:30.280 lefty like podcast they can't go and i had sold stuff to other podcasts so i was like oh no just

00:32:35.040 record it and and then this guy came up to me and he was like hey um did you want to help recruit

00:32:40.500 matt gates to join our organization and i'm like what you know and just no questions asked just

00:32:46.820 you're physically present and you look like you belong so yeah just come on come on be with us

00:32:52.580 it's wild i mean this is you're almost inspiring me this is like if like just show up and just

00:32:58.060 assume people are not going to ask questions and it might work out you know it's almost kind of

00:33:01.300 like a like a um a confidence thing i think you know when you think about scammers like your

00:33:07.640 annadelvies of the world and things like that i think a big part of it is just sort of assuming

00:33:12.980 that people are going to be like oh she looks like she belongs it's fine yeah i mean that's

00:33:18.100 literally so like i said i work in live events um and there is a there is a place that hosts events

00:33:24.300 in columbia maryland and i uh realized about eight years ago i could go to any event i went there if

00:33:30.660 i parked at employee parking and wore khakis because i had done that for years you know what

00:33:34.920 i mean so just like you just yeah i belong here like what's your question i don't know yeah it's

00:33:39.060 like you know when you go to an event and you look for the person with the clipboard because that

00:33:42.720 seems like they're in charge they've got a clipboard you know you can just like bring a

00:33:45.780 clipboard anywhere they'll let you in um pretty much i guess one of the other questions i have

00:33:51.260 for you is do you do you think that being a woman like do you think that you would have been able to

00:33:55.580 do this in the same way had you been a man do you think that your identity really helped you

00:33:59.360 yeah um so obviously like when i got when i got dogs you could see like the tree of people like

00:34:08.120 a fan as they realized and it was like one guy realized but he wanted to sleep with me so he

00:34:12.920 like didn't tell the guy who also wanted to sleep with me but like he told his other friend you know

00:34:16.380 what I mean so like you could tell I could tell over like the course of like six weeks like who

00:34:20.260 like blocked me and like you know when you know out of their like out of their mind like trying

00:34:26.200 to like hide everything from me um I think it gave me a very easy pass and it made people trust me

00:34:32.920 more and I also didn't have to prove stuff the way I would have had to prove if I was a guy

00:34:37.240 you know like um my personality was always the same I was just like the racist fascist version

00:34:46.480 of myself you know like bizarro me but I was like it's too much to turn off my personality

00:34:52.620 so everyone I like kind of vibed with was you know from Chicago or Detroit or Boston

00:34:58.380 you know they weren't I wasn't like hanging out people from Alabama or Kentucky because it's just

00:35:02.200 not who I am like you know that wouldn't have not again not gonna be a trad wife um and they like

00:35:10.680 it made them you know just kind of kind of let things go a little bit more and I would always

00:35:17.680 pretend to not know what stuff was and like if I was a guy that might not have made as much sense

00:35:23.780 but I was a woman and we are naturally stupider yes so yes it was you know like much easier um 0.72

00:35:32.020 to do that and i i think too if i had been a man there would have been maybe a little bit more 0.82

00:35:38.280 vetting of me i literally used my real name like i used a fake last name but not by much

00:35:44.760 and i told them like i was amanda lily my name is amanda moore um from annapolis and i'm from

00:35:50.740 alexandria and i used to live in annapolis and there's like public record of that and nobody

00:35:56.660 ever they were like oh yeah no i think she's hot she's great everything's great you know

00:36:00.540 But if I had been John from Annapolis, they might have looked into me a little bit more.

00:36:05.420 You know what I mean?

00:36:06.540 And they just let it all go.

00:36:07.640 They didn't care.

00:36:08.500 Wow.

00:36:08.880 I love you using their own biases against them, like weaponizing their biases against

00:36:14.620 them.

00:36:14.880 Love it.

00:36:15.760 So one of my last questions for you is, I know that when you went undercover in these

00:36:21.280 movements, you were out of work.

00:36:24.240 I also worked in live events before the pandemic.

00:36:26.740 And so I was also out of work. 0.99

00:36:27.720 and you were going through the same frustrating fucked up ass process that i was going through 0.98

00:36:33.140 which is trying to get unemployment trying to figure out any kind of like services or support 0.98

00:36:37.700 for myself after i lost my job and you know i i read that you really that that that kind of

00:36:44.880 radicalized you much farther left when you realize like wow the pandemic has hit and all of us are

00:36:51.660 just kind of on our own and our government has kind of abandoned us and so i guess my question

00:36:55.200 is, and I felt the exact same way, my question is, are there ways that you see a parallel with that

00:37:02.540 in some of the people who were in these extremist movements? Because I would have to imagine that

00:37:06.620 those people feel the same way, that their government has abandoned them, that they don't

00:37:10.280 have any real meaningful recourse in terms of civic engagement. But obviously that has pushed

00:37:15.980 them in the opposite direction. But I'm wondering, do you see a parallel there between your experience

00:37:20.960 of feeling abandoned in the pandemic

00:37:23.020 and their experiences as well.

00:37:25.900 You're the first person to ever ask me that.

00:37:28.120 Oh.

00:37:29.040 Yeah.

00:37:31.260 Usually people ask me,

00:37:32.660 what advice do you have people going undercover?

00:37:35.140 And I say, don't do it.

00:37:37.060 And a lot of it is that.

00:37:39.620 You know, if I was going to become a neo-fascist racist, 0.60

00:37:43.480 like that ship would have already sailed by now,

00:37:45.940 given the way that I was like raised, right?

00:37:50.960 And I, if you look at the guy who's, like, running the trucker convoy right now, Brian Brasi, he was, he's a trucker, but he was doing stuff for music tours, like ZZ Top, I think.

00:38:05.600 So he was in the same boat as us.

00:38:07.400 And a lot of what he attributes to what he's doing now is his son, his son passed away about six months ago and also losing work.

00:38:17.420 And, like, I get it, right?

00:38:18.340 Like, I lost my job because I'm mixed income, which means you're Part W-2 and Part 1099.

00:38:24.720 I got $100 a week for unemployment, which is, D.C. is the lowest unemployment ever place in the country.

00:38:31.380 So I really understand what Brian is going through.

00:38:36.740 I did not decide to lead an insurrectionist group terrorizing residents of D.C.

00:38:41.280 You're welcome.

00:38:43.360 And he did.

00:38:44.420 And something that I think also scares me is that a lot of the movement on the right right now, especially with people under 35, is populism.

00:38:54.980 And so I see exactly how someone could have been in my exact position and also be a white person who was raised in some type of Christianity.

00:39:04.180 And to be like, yeah, this is extremely appealing, you know.

00:39:06.900 and I think yeah I think it's I think it's like an under underreported thing because people feel

00:39:15.240 like oh if you got unemployment on the right people say oh if you got unemployment you made

00:39:19.140 more you know than you would have made working it's like I did not it's not true I lost my home

00:39:23.620 like that's definitely not true and on the left people are like well you know like we helped you 0.94

00:39:28.300 and it's like did you I don't feel very helped um but you know I'm not I'm not a racist asshole

00:39:36.920 and I I don't think you need to be like that like mindset but you have to kind of in a way be open 0.53

00:39:43.100 to it and I can see how hearing stuff from the populist you know definitely drags people that

00:39:50.200 way I want to be very clear the upper echelon is not like this other than Brian I think he's

00:39:55.040 actually like an anomaly within this i think most of the people who are leading things are um you

00:40:00.020 know kind of set for life and if they want to have 2.5 kids and might pick a house and a wife that

00:40:05.180 stays at home they can have that um but i do think a lot of the like rank and file people are people

00:40:11.160 who were in a position like me or you and you know just different priorities whether your priority is

00:40:16.800 yourself or whether it's the greater good for people in general that's really it's it's helpful

00:40:23.800 it sounds very scary but also kind of hopeful in a kind of way like I guess I guess it kind of

00:40:30.880 gives me hope that people can be reached some people can be I don't know is that how you feel

00:40:36.780 I think that if I truly believe with all of my heart that 48 percent of this country

00:40:42.260 were like neo-fascist racist I wouldn't even bother having this conversation I'd already be

00:40:46.820 in london like bye um you know i think i think a lot of people it's something it's really hard

00:40:54.800 to wrestle with right because you have to be like i see why you went a little racist and i see why

00:40:59.560 you're a little anti-semitic but like we're willing to still like work with you like you

00:41:03.720 should not work with the fascists or like a literal nazi but like the general population 0.99

00:41:08.060 and it's like it sucks it sucks when you can't like i couldn't i couldn't buy food like my 0.96

00:41:12.820 clients were like from Australia were like sending me money because they're like I cannot

00:41:16.740 believe how America is like doing you guys right like um it it sucks it sucked to lose my home

00:41:23.940 it's hard to sleep on couches and to like stay with my mom you know like I'm 33 years old it was

00:41:28.020 awful and I can see how you know if whatever like I see how you get there and if we're willing to

00:41:35.540 like talk to those people and be like actually the people who are obstructing unemployment

00:41:39.240 that you know my dad like tried to tell me something about um how great the republicans

00:41:45.200 were and i was like actually dad brownie sanders is why i'm not like literally have not killed

00:41:49.820 myself you know like he's why i'm getting this extra six hundred dollars a week like

00:41:54.220 what are you talking about you know and if people if we can like reach people and make them realize

00:42:00.060 that you know i think there is hope to like pull people you know to the to the left i think a lot

00:42:05.220 of people just operate within their own self-interest and and i think you know we look

00:42:10.920 at them and say oh you're you're voting against your self-interest but in their minds they're not

00:42:14.560 and if we can show them reality um and if you i just always feel like if you don't believe that

00:42:19.740 like what's the point because it's half the country why bother yeah i think that you put that

00:42:26.700 so so nicely um you mentioned london earlier uh i have two final questions where can folks follow

00:42:33.980 you and what's next for you do you have any any updates or news that you can share maybe a question

00:42:39.300 mark so you can follow me on um twitter is where i'm most annoying so twitter that's not true you're

00:42:46.760 one of my favorite twitter follows thank you um so twitter tiktok or instagram at no turtle soup

00:42:54.840 17 um and then next for me is that i am hoping someone lets me write a book and if they do that

00:43:02.540 I'm going to London to write it because I can't write it here

00:43:04.540 I'll just drink too much and hang out with my friends too much

00:43:06.440 I'll never get done

00:43:07.140 so I gotta go far away

00:43:09.060 I know like 8 people in London

00:43:10.700 and that's way fewer people than I know here 1.00

00:43:12.260 I think it's a good bet

00:43:13.760 Beautiful. Amanda Moore

00:43:16.520 Well thank you so much for bringing

00:43:22.740 so much of yourself to this conversation

00:43:24.520 If you want to tune into more

00:43:26.580 conversations like this, check out my podcast 0.99

00:43:28.780 There Are No Girls on the Internet on iHeartRadio

00:43:31.040 New episodes drop every Tuesday.

00:43:33.100 I am Bridget Todd.

00:43:34.040 This has been amazing.

00:43:35.260 Thank you for hanging with me for our first podcast taping.

00:43:38.660 We did it.

00:43:39.500 Yeah, that's right.

00:43:40.040 We did it together.

00:43:40.740 There we go.

00:43:48.220 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi?

00:43:52.240 You can reach us at hello at tangody.com.

00:43:54.600 You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangody.com.

00:43:57.900 There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.

00:44:00.660 It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:44:03.360 Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

00:44:05.420 Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

00:44:08.040 Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

00:44:10.040 I'm your host, Bridget Todd.

00:44:11.860 If you want to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts.

00:44:15.440 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:44:30.180 I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

00:44:40.320 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. Every week

00:44:46.700 I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

00:44:51.740 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:44:56.920 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:45:05.300 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:45:11.080 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:45:19.380 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture

00:45:22.860 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:45:27.640 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:45:29.400 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:45:37.200 Hey, this is Hayes Davenport.

00:45:39.080 And Sean Clements.

00:45:40.300 We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.

00:45:42.260 Every episode, we're trying to help our guests improve their careers

00:45:44.860 by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers.

00:45:48.100 The show's famously super accessible, so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going on.

00:45:54.520 We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller, Danny McBride, Riz Ahmed, and Mary Steenburgen.

00:45:59.460 Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:46:05.540 I'm Nick Turturro. You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's Black Klansman.

00:46:11.520 And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, I deliver pizza to a new guest.

00:46:16.420 I've shared a slice with everyone, from Seth Rollins.

00:46:19.240 What are you doing with my belt?

00:46:20.500 To Bill Burr.

00:46:21.400 I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am.

00:46:26.480 And now, we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Turturro.

00:46:31.140 It's called happiness.

00:46:32.220 Delivering happiness.

00:46:33.300 And many, many more.

00:46:34.760 Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, and listen now.

00:46:40.180 This is an iHeart Podcast.

00:46:42.720 Guaranteed human.

There Are No Girls on the Internet - April 05, 2022

Meet the woman who went undercover to infiltrate white supremacists (Live from Union Stage!)

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