00:00:53.240and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:00:58.760I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.
00:01:02.380Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:01:09.920These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:01:13.740Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:21.360If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:01:27.100Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:35.740Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:03:40.700And, you know, I guess my first question is, what kind of imagery or iconography are people pointing to to support these outlandish claims?
00:03:48.620There was a bunch. I think a lot of it was like there was a portal on the stage. There was writing kind of on the stage within that portal that said, see you on the other side. They were also pointing to the cross-shaped stage, which just for reference is a pretty normal shape of a stage, as well as the shirt he was wearing and the slow rhythm of the music.
00:04:15.800When I was growing up, I was definitely like a goth teen, I guess you might say. And so I liked
00:04:21.280black clothing. I liked sort of, I guess, like demonic imagery and that kind of thing. And I
00:04:27.200grew up in the kind of household where my parents would be like, oh, this is satanic. Don't listen
00:04:31.140to this. Don't listen to that. And as an adult, I realized that occult imagery can sort of be just
00:04:36.800like a marketing thing. Like a lot of the bands that I like, I'm sure they chose the specific
00:04:42.560imagery that they did precisely because they knew it was associated with like the occult
00:04:47.760and so now in light of this tragedy I feel like people are looking for all these different like
00:04:53.480symbolisms and meanings and it's like well it's not unusual for certain alternative artists to
00:04:59.240choose iconography that is associated with the occult as like their brand and so you seeing a
00:05:05.580conspiracy theory on it it's kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy or like a feedback loop
00:05:11.900I mean, it's very much become a part of different cultures.
00:05:14.700I mean, you've seen it in hip hop culture.
00:05:16.440And this is what we see at the show of adopting that kind of imagery because they've already been accused of it so much that it kind of starts to fold in on itself.
00:05:26.220There are definitely better people than me to speak about the history of hip hop.
00:06:27.300So when we saw these like conspiracy theories essentially break out
00:06:30.680immediately after the Astroworld tragedy,
00:06:34.340it's not necessarily surprising because there's already such a strong kind of framework for that
00:06:41.600type of thinking on TikTok already. Do you think that TikTok should be doing more to curb these
00:06:45.800kinds of videos? Yes, they should be doing more to curb these types of videos, like absolutely,
00:06:51.280without a doubt. Conspiracy theories at the moment in and of themselves are not against the platform's
00:06:58.280moderation guidelines. But a lot of that time, a lot of the time, that means that they can just
00:07:03.160kind of thrive completely unchecked. And there is no understanding of different kind of scales
00:07:11.360of harm that they can cause. In general, the app should be doing more to kind of add friction to
00:07:16.380those videos so that they don't go so viral so easily and just take over entire For You pages.
00:07:24.600Well, on the one hand, I can kind of understand why these videos are so compelling. I know that
00:07:28.540in the days after Astroworld, I really caught myself kind of stuck in a loop of watching these
00:07:33.420videos over and over and over again. And there really was something kind of compelling about
00:07:38.800them. They were so disturbing and so dark. And I noticed that initially I was being surfaced videos
00:07:44.340from people who were there who were just saying, this is what it was like, this is what we had to
00:07:47.480face. And eventually, as I continued scrolling on TikTok, the videos I was being surfaced were
00:07:53.040more and more extreme and becoming more and more laden with satanic conspiracy theories.
00:07:57.980But again, I can sort of see how people can be easily taken in and easily down a rabbit hole just watching video after video like that.
00:08:07.520Absolutely. I think, especially on TikTok, where it just feeds them to you, it's not like you made the choice to go click on those videos.
00:08:14.480It was just like, oh, you watched this video of a perspective from inside the crowd and how terrifying it is.
00:08:21.200Other people who watch that are also interested in this theory of it being a ritual and then it feeds it to you.
00:08:27.980And the other thing to point out is that conspiracy theories exactly like this are really common in the wake of tragedy and terrifying disasters, things like that.
00:08:40.320When we try and process horrible, horrible events that are truly just like too much for our brain, conspiracy theories offer very simple answers to these kind of complex problems and also offer some sort of like sense of meaning to it.
00:08:56.200like it was intentional, there's some sort of story behind it that your brain can connect the
00:09:02.300dots into. Oh, my gosh, I think you really said it. You know, I can kind of understand why, oh,
00:09:09.840this was a satanic ritualistic sacrifice is somehow more comforting than it was good old
00:09:17.440fashioned capitalism. And it just turned out that the organizers of this event cared more about
00:09:23.080making money than they did about safety concerns. And I guess if it's Satanists, I feel like it's
00:09:28.500much less likely that I'm going to run into a cabal of Satanists than it is that I am going to
00:09:34.240encounter shoddy craftsmanship from somebody who didn't care or a system that didn't care enough
00:09:40.380about me and it hurt me. I feel like it's more comforting to believe the first one than it is
00:09:47.500to be like, oh yeah, it's capitalism. We can't escape it. It's all around us. It's somehow
00:09:51.660bleaker it's definitely more reality is more grim in this situation i also think that you know as
00:09:58.540everybody does we all suffer from this sort of main character syndrome and if the narrative in
00:10:04.940your head is it's an evil group that's out to get you then you are somehow involved and they are
00:10:11.600concerned with you and their actions are a reflection of somehow of how they want to go
00:10:18.240after you. You are still somehow involved in that. But when instead, it's just, they literally
00:10:24.700didn't think about you. They're so concerned with making their own money that they never thought
00:10:30.700about your safety. You weren't a concern. You are just an object that produces money to them.
00:10:35.820That is so much worse for our brains to try and comprehend than like a evil group is trying to
00:10:44.100get you like that's that's way harder it's grimmer way grimmer it's grim and it's also just so lonely
00:10:50.420it's so lonely to feel like your humanity is not recognized yeah it's very it's inhuman it's it
00:10:57.880really loses the humanity when you think about it in that framework versus if you just go with like
00:11:06.480evil villains and good guys who are in like this fight against evil i feel like you get to kind of
00:11:14.100Feel like your humanity is still relevant to them.
00:11:18.200Obviously, those kids' humanities didn't, like, was not obvious to the organizers at this event.
00:11:23.460Like, they were being treated like chattel.
00:11:25.640You know, it's like, you know, this idea that their individual humanity and souls or whatever, that, like, the organizers would be really into that.
00:11:34.240It's like, no, they don't, I don't think they even clock you all as humans who they need to care about in that way.
00:12:51.080More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.
00:12:55.640And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.
00:12:59.900So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.
00:13:02.620Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.
00:13:06.700Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting.
00:13:12.100Call 844-844-IHEART to get started. That's 844-844-IHEART.
00:13:17.740When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.
00:13:23.540I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:13:30.000I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.
00:13:33.480I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.
00:13:42.060Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:13:46.320I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:13:50.880I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:13:58.320They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:14:02.140But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:14:05.800They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:14:09.380Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:14:17.840If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:14:23.740This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,
00:14:29.940pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the
00:14:34.520same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,
00:14:39.920the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:14:43.360I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:14:46.920From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,
00:14:51.780nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling
00:14:57.920characters and that is a trojan horse whether you're looking for literary deep dives smart
00:15:03.200pop culture conversations or a community of readers who love to think a little too much
00:15:07.940you're in the right place listen to pro society on the iheart radio app
00:15:12.560apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts see you between the pages
00:15:17.360at our back something else i've learned from your work is this idea of conspiracy theories
00:15:29.440often are a way to talk about or a way to demonize people for their identities without
00:15:36.680actually like saying that and so in this situation i've noticed people saying like oh
00:15:42.220They're sacrificed by celebrity. And I can't help wondering if they're using celebrity as like a stand-in for, it sounds like anti-Semitic and racist to me. Like the way that they're talking about it, it almost seems like a more palatable way of coding explicit anti-Semitism or racism.
00:16:01.940them. Yeah, absolutely. When they like dog whistle at Hollywood, like, you know, Hollywood is
00:16:08.040controlled by evil elites who are using these celebrity clones. And of course, they only ever
00:16:14.840go after hip hop artists, generally black artists. And it's usually narratives about them being
00:16:21.180clones about them being somehow under control of some Illuminati shadow elite, supreme force.
00:16:29.540and oftentimes like there's just so much coded racism and so much coded antisemitism in both of
00:16:36.260these and they just fold together into this awful combination of dog-whistled hate yes and i think
00:16:44.640it's one of those things where they don't have to come out and say that they're talking about
00:16:50.020jewish people or they're talking about like quote like rappers you know what that's code for it kind
00:16:55.440of makes it more palatable and then when you call it out they have a very convenient you know it's
00:17:00.120like i never said i never explicitly said that i was talking about jewish people i like you know0.56
00:17:05.500i feel like the way it kind of gives them a plausible deniability to continue trafficking0.81
00:17:10.720in this kind of hate without being called out and if you call it out it's like oh well you're
00:17:16.200just trying to suppress my you know my truth oh absolutely and like there are also parts of what
00:17:23.420they're saying that like are rooted in reality and very real problems and so then they can kind
00:17:30.780of hide under those as well like there are issues in hollywood with like people having too much
00:17:38.340power and those are often like old white men who are making decisions about like mass media
00:17:44.440and like that's an issue right and like in general do we do we idolize celebrities a bit too much
00:17:50.540Like probably like those are like real conversations for us to be having.
00:17:55.040There are real systemic issues to like be looking at here, but they often kind of hide under them or like vaguely reference them in a coded enough way that it like to an on marker might not look problematic.
00:18:10.200And it like gives them kind of a blanket to hide under.
00:18:13.780Yeah, I've noticed that. And it's so frustrating because it makes it so hard to call out.
00:18:18.360but it's like another reason why I appreciate the work of yourself and other folks who speak
00:18:22.160out against us on TikTok, because they, I think that they make content that is specifically hard
00:18:27.400to call out. And so like, it takes a little bit of a, of nuance to do it well. And so I so
00:18:32.940appreciate the work that you're doing in terms of saying like, well, let's actually unpack what's
00:18:37.180going on here. Thank you. I appreciate it. It takes a lot of time. So I genuinely appreciate
00:18:43.020it you see it so much like there was one big debunk that i did a couple months ago i think
00:18:49.720but there was a viral video about ancient civilizations in antarctica and the end of
00:18:56.980that rabbit hole was like esoteric nazi shit and i had to do this like three minute explanation of0.88
00:19:04.520like okay like here's like what is actually going on here on like the surface level they're saying0.98
00:19:10.500like Antarctica, like maybe had humans on it before, but then you look at like the actual
00:19:16.100language they're using and they're saying like Hyperborea, which is very much a part of kind of
00:19:21.600esoteric Nazi mythology. So what people engage with as if it's like just a normal fun conspiracy
00:19:29.160theory, like on TikTok is actually literally Nazi mythology. And I think that really helps us see0.66
00:19:36.140how these conspiracy theories might seem harmless, but actually can be a pathway to a much more
00:19:42.780dangerous and extremist lines of thinking. I can at least anecdotally say that like when I engage
00:19:49.180with one or two conspiracy theories on TikTok, then all of a sudden I'm fed more and they get
00:19:55.060more and more extreme. I think that like, there's absolutely a link, like we know that conspiracy
00:20:01.000theories almost always end in anti-semitism and they they decrease kind of your trust towards
00:20:08.160other other groups of people who might not be like you and they they decrease your pro-social
00:20:13.860behavior and they have kind of all these effects on society at large but it does kind of also seem
00:20:19.740like they are changing the way we think like where so many people have just like opted out of
00:20:25.200reality and are choosing kind of just like these escapist conspiracy theories to believe in rather
00:20:31.680than accepting that like right now reality is pretty tough yeah it's it's so interesting how
00:20:36.620you put that i do feel like an entire subsection of the world has just checked out of reality
00:20:42.540and it's like it's like easier to live in a a conspiracy theory because like you said
00:20:50.440reality is pretty scary the fact that you know it's not really some satanist group it's just
00:20:56.980capitalism trying to get your money and that's what killed eight people that's pretty grim i
00:21:01.560can understand wanting to check out of that reality and instead believe something that is
00:21:08.560like weirdly more comforting you know yeah absolutely for some reason like for the human
00:21:14.360brain it is more comforting to believe that there's like a shadow elite trying to get you
00:21:18.840because at least that's a simple answer right that has a pretty simple fix if they're worse
00:21:23.780I'm like unimaginably powerful group in charge of the world like that would be kind of great
00:21:29.380because like they're clearly doing a bad job like let's get rid of them but no like there's a lot
00:21:34.820of systems that are like interwoven with each other and causing problems that we are like
00:21:41.480reliant on those systems and we're complicit in those systems and like we all have to also change
00:21:48.820our own behaviors to like fix these huge problems and they're gonna take years to fix there is no
00:21:55.500like on off switch for fixing these things like it's years and years of collective work and that
00:22:02.360is so much more mental energy and like long-term physical energy than just being like, oh, it's0.96
00:22:11.760just evil Jews in control of the world. Right. I guess I have one kind of tough question that1.00
00:22:17.880I've been wrestling with is, is there a line between telling people who were at Astroworld
00:22:23.540that they can't recount their own understanding of their experience? Like I'm sure you saw that
00:22:28.040the video of the young woman who was like i when i bought this ticket i didn't notice all the
00:22:33.300different you know iconography or hints that this was a sacrifice and i believe that was there like
00:22:38.680it was demonic all the hypnotic noises is there a line between telling someone that they're allowed
00:22:46.300to have their own perspective of their experience and like allowing room for that but also not
00:22:53.740spreading harmful, damaging conspiracy theories and trafficking in them? Like, is there a line
00:22:59.680where we can make space for both? Or do you have any thoughts? Yeah, I mean, I think that people
00:23:04.980are allowed to have their own experiences. And they're allowed to kind of talk about those.
00:23:11.300The question is, do we amplify them? I don't think that we should ever tell somebody,
00:23:16.900no, you aren't allowed to think this. But the question is, do we then spread that to another
00:23:21.82015 million people who weren't there and are just going to kind of take your word for it and also
00:23:27.160believe that. The power that something like TikTok has when it comes to virality and spreading a
00:23:32.620message is really kind of unprecedented. So we have to be having conversations and honestly,
00:23:40.840tough questions about like, what is doing the most harm versus the most good in this sort of
00:23:49.000situation. And it's like, all of it is going to be shitty answers. Like, I wish that there were0.78
00:23:54.020ways that everybody can be happy. And the whole thing is just like awful to think about in general.
00:24:00.540So yeah, it's a tough question. You're not wrong.
00:27:21.140Satanic ritualistic sacrifice were not the only kinds of unsubstantiated claims that we heard in the aftermath of Astroworld.
00:27:28.380Houston Police Chief Troy Finner initially said in a televised press conference that an unidentified attendee caused a panic by injecting a security guard with a needle full of an unknown drug, causing him to pass out.
00:27:40.340Finner said that the security guard was revived after he was given Narcon, a prescription to treat opioid overdose.
00:27:46.380And he also said that medics confirmed he had a needle mark on his neck.
00:27:49.540Now, as soon as I heard this, I thought it sounded kind of like the drug scare horror stories I'd heard during my adolescence growing up.
00:27:56.540And one rogue bad actor causing a panic that led to a deadly stampede
00:28:00.300is a pretty convenient explanation that kind of lets the organizers off the hook
00:28:03.980for their part in the deadly festival.
00:28:06.020But later, Binner walked back those statements,
00:28:09.160saying the security officer had not been injected with drugs after all
00:28:12.220and instead had just been hit on the head.
00:28:14.600Conspiracy theories cast blame on boogeymen
00:28:16.740instead of on the actual real-world systems and individuals who are at fault.
00:28:21.320Kind of the flip side of that for me is that
00:28:23.700so many of the firsthand videos on TikTok are from people who were there. And in terms of like
00:28:30.220what we amplify and what we don't, I feel like some of the most compelling TikToks that challenge
00:28:37.600the organizers and the authorities, you know, like very convenient version of events. When the
00:28:43.780tragedy first happened, I was like, oh, the cops are saying that somebody was like stabbed with a
00:28:48.980needle and that they caused a stampede and i was like that's a very convenient narrative
00:28:53.640and then when you go to tiktok and see these firsthand videos of obvious overcrowding like
00:28:59.220obvious like like dangerous conditions part of me was like i am glad that young people have access
00:29:05.880to platforms like tiktok where they can say no no authorities here is what i experienced and
00:29:11.640rather than amplifying conspiracy theories i wish that we were seeing more you know
00:29:18.400more accounts that challenge the authorities and the organizers very convenient narrative of what
00:29:24.280happened to get accountability. And so I think it's interesting how it can be like a double-edged
00:29:28.940thing. It can be used to spread conspiracy or used to challenge official narratives that let
00:29:36.800people off the hook who had power to stop this. Oh, absolutely. It's one of my favorite things
00:29:42.120about TikTok is just like there's good and bad. And I think obviously just like my work of
00:29:47.780analyzing, you know, misinformation, disinformation on TikTok is oftentimes people look at that and
00:29:54.440then assume that I hate the app. And I really don't like there are really phenomenal things
00:30:01.120that it offers, like when it comes to like, learning and like, being exposed to different
00:30:06.640ideas than you might already have, like TikTok really is capable of doing that if you create
00:30:12.800that sort of feed in general, and if you are that type of person who goes looking for that.
00:30:17.120And it absolutely, I think even with Astroworld, like there is both. There is the conspiracy theories and the ideas that it is a satanic ritual. And then there's also people who are looking at that and just seeing the overcrowding or management that went on.
00:30:34.280So like, yes. And again, tough question, because how do you balance those? How do you have an algorithm that can tell the difference and promote what is like honest, you know, experiences of what happened versus like conspiracy theories about it?
00:30:50.240Yeah, it's a tough question, but I'm happy that there are folks like you who are asking those questions and sort of creating those conversations that I think that we need to have.
00:30:58.500Yeah, we definitely need to be having them because this conspiracy theory environment on TikTok is not sustainable for democracy, or just like a healthy environment for a lot of kids to be growing up in. Like they should be challenging the narratives. Absolutely. But I don't think conspiracy theories actually challenge the narrative. They just are kind of, how do I put this? Conspiracies don't challenge narratives. They are just dressed up as something that does.
00:31:25.680That is, I completely agree with you and know what you mean, right? It's like, like with Astroworld, challenging the narrative would be holding the people who had power accountable. It's not, if it's Satan, then like, we're not going to be able to sue Satan. So it just like lets people who let this happen off the hook.
00:31:46.260But it's dressed up in this way of like, oh, this is like an edgy, y'all aren't ready for this like edgy take. You know what I mean? Like it's like dressed up as if it is challenging a narrative. But in fact, it is creating a convenient, supernatural scapegoat so that those who actually had the power to prevent this can continue to like avoid accountability.
00:32:06.700absolutely that was so so well put you took the words out of my mouth that was really
00:32:12.240you you nailed it there because like if you subscribe to this idea that it's a satanic
00:32:18.020ritual then like that offers zero answers about like what caused it what were all the bad decisions
00:32:25.280that led up to this and then it offers also no solutions for how do we prevent this in the future
00:32:30.900the only thing that it tells you to do is accept jesus as your lord and savior that's it and like
00:32:38.600that doesn't fix any problems about concert overcrowding also and like this is something
00:32:43.900that a lot of the times i think we miss when it comes to covering conspiracy theories but on a
00:32:49.160much kind of smaller scale not on the societal scale but on a smaller scale of like there are
00:32:54.300real victims here. Like there are people who die and people who have very severe injuries and a lot
00:33:01.200of people who are traumatized and all of those people have families. And then when you go around
00:33:06.600saying it was part of a satanic sacrifice, like how is that going to make them feel? And like,
00:33:14.100what are the consequences for that? Now you have family members who are grieving their loved ones.
00:33:20.800And if they go look for their loved ones online, they're going to see them incorporated into conspiracy theories about this being some sort of like Hollywood hip hop sacrifice. And even worse, like if they are a religious person and they buy into that themselves, like what would that do to them?
00:33:39.720So, like, those are really heartbreaking, very real-world effects that these types of conspiracy theories can have on the victims and their families.
00:33:48.820Yeah, and I think that you're exactly right that we don't talk enough about the people who are harmed when we traffic in conspiracy theories and spread them in this way.
00:33:57.580The people, like, the actual real-world harm that it's causing.
00:34:00.540Yeah, I mean, there's the ideological harm and the way it's like harming society at large to think this way, because like, this, again, solves no problems, offers no solutions and lets people check out it lets really the organizers and the people who are responsible off the hook in a lot of ways.
00:34:18.980But then it also causes harm to like real humans who are in the process of like processing trauma and grieving and trying to understand what happened. And now if they go looking for it, they see satanic ritual. That's not fair to them.