00:00:49.980If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:00:55.400Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:04.060Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:06:01.140And psychology today has been slowly kind of evolving.
00:06:05.260I don't think that they totally meet the needs of modern clients, but they're doing something about it, and I'm happy about that.
00:06:11.720So Therapy Done was sort of like, all right, I'm going to try to create this disruptive force in the therapist directory field, which isn't very big.
00:06:25.860And then we can get into it, but back in 2015, when BetterHelp and Talkspace started to become a thing,
00:06:34.060I was like, oh, OK, like they're somebody I need to target as well.
00:06:39.100I know when I was first looking for a therapist a few years ago, I knew that I wanted a Black
00:06:42.720woman. And that's partially because I had heard from my Black girlfriends of these awful experiences1.00
00:06:47.560of having to spend their time in therapy, you know, educating their white therapist about
00:06:52.160things like systemic racism. And I knew that I didn't want to do that. But finding a Black
00:06:56.660woman therapist for me was incredibly difficult. It was like finding a needle in a haystack.
00:07:00.840Yeah, exactly. That isn't how therapy should be. You should not be spending time that you're paying for to educate your client or educate your therapist on who you are, your culture, your background, the language that you use, where you're coming from, your religion, your ethnicity.
00:07:18.600So that's why Therapy Den was created so that we can like create like a ton of filters so that you can like figure out how you can find a therapist that already matches with you in lots of different ways.
00:07:31.120And also I've like taken a stance on like, here are a ton of different questions that clients should be asking their therapist in the first session.0.52
00:07:40.480And if you're Black and you're seeing a therapist that's white, you need to ask that therapist,0.70
00:07:47.260like, what makes you, how can you competently treat me?0.94
00:07:51.620How do you feel if I'm going to, like, talk about how racist white people are?
00:07:55.280Like, what do you think about, you know, Black Lives Matters and, like, all the protests?
00:08:01.540And, like, there's just, like, hundreds of, like, questions that you could ask your therapist
00:08:05.980to make sure that they're a good fit for you.
00:08:07.820And I don't think that a lot of clients know that they can, like, interview their therapist on that first session and ask that therapist, tell me, like, the specific training that you've received.
00:08:18.100Talk to me about, like, the supervisors and the consultation groups that you're in so that I know that you can competently treat me.
00:08:37.820So you talked about your relationship with these therapy apps that have really become ubiquitous in the last few years, things like BetterHelp and Talkspace.
00:08:46.960You know, when I first heard about these apps, they did really seem like an accessible way for folks to access, like therapists.
00:08:54.360But so many therapists I've heard from do not like these apps.
00:09:03.600the the accessibility that these apps have like tapped into it is so incredibly difficult and i
00:09:10.720wish it wasn't it's a systemic issue but it's so incredibly difficult for somebody to just like
00:09:15.360find a therapist it's a good match for them um there's a ton of searching that you have to do
00:09:20.320there's confusing insurance that you have to like wade through um it can be expensive uh there's
00:09:26.160like a ton of roadblocks so many therapists are booked especially because everybody in the0.98
00:09:31.760the fucking world decided to get therapy at the same goddamn time which is totally fine i get it0.95
00:09:36.720i understand i love that you're getting therapy um but therapists are so busy so you're just like0.99
00:09:44.420you even if you find a therapist who's a good match it's incredibly frustrating because they
00:09:49.040might not have any openings but then better help talk space cerebral other apps like that have come
00:09:55.460along and they're just like hey click a button we are the uber of therapy download the app click
00:10:01.540this button, check the terms of service. Don't worry about reading it. It's confusing anyways.
00:10:05.880And we will set you up with a therapist, just any therapist. Is it a good match? I don't know.
00:10:11.760We hope so. Maybe. But they've tapped into the accessibility part where it's just like,
00:10:17.940it's so understandable. People are getting so frustrated. So of course, they're going to go
00:10:22.720to these apps, especially younger people that are used to doing that.
00:10:27.560Yeah, that is an excellent point that they really did identify a true need that exists out there of it's difficult to find a therapist. And we talk a lot on this show about bad things that the Internet and tech bring to us.
00:10:43.680But I was talking with Bridget the other day, and one of the things she mentioned was how her favorite stories are about the great things that the internet does to, like, bring people together or help somebody be seen or find whatever it is that they're looking for.
00:10:57.680And it really seems like they sort of zeroed in on that.
00:11:01.360And it is a real need that they've addressed.
00:12:00.640And, you know, it's one of those things, like, should getting a therapist, should starting the journey to, like, deal with your trauma, unpack your issues,
00:12:08.720Should that look like an Uber business model that we know has so much exploitation, whether it's the exploitation of drivers, the exploitation of rider details and rider privacy?
00:12:26.880The idea of having a therapist at your fingertips sounds great.
00:12:30.420But when you actually think about it harder, you're like, wait, should therapy be a similar kind of business framework as something like an Uber where you can get a ride at the push of a button and maybe this driver isn't being treated well and maybe they aren't being super careful with my data?
00:12:46.500Who knows? I don't know. The answers might be buried in the third page of some, you know, murky privacy document somewhere.
00:12:52.180Like, I'm not really sure. Should getting into a relationship with a therapist really be the same way that it is when you just like hail a taxi to your home?
00:13:00.420Yeah, I mean, no, I think not at all. And because like, you know, if someone's driving you from the restaurant to your home, like, I don't know, I guess that person can kind of be anybody as long as they're like, good enough. You know, they're not going to bother you. They're going to like, be quiet, whatever. They'll do what they need to do to get you from like, point A to point B. But when you're looking for a therapist, it's not just like, are they good enough? Are they going to like, talk to you or listen?
00:13:28.600It's like, are they actually qualified to treat you?
00:13:31.220Do they understand your experience in a deep way?
00:13:35.520And you need to shop around for therapists and talk to multiple therapists in order to find somebody who's a good enough match.
00:13:43.400And instead of just being handed one, like Uber would do, or like Talkspace or BetterHelp does.
00:13:50.660But there are apps and tech companies that, like, understand that BetterHelp is not doing this well, and somebody else needs to do it better.
00:14:04.200So there is, like, a newer app that I think is maybe just in, like, Florida or Georgia right now called Hurdle.
00:22:25.020So you might be thinking, what about HIPAA?
00:22:28.100The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, a law that created national standards to protect patient health information from being disclosed without consent.
00:22:36.780Doesn't HIPAA prevent our health information from being used to sell things?
00:22:40.440In this case, the answer is not really.
00:22:43.040Our producer Mike works with health information, and that means he spends a lot of time dealing with HIPAA.
00:25:14.840You're saying, okay, all of the information
00:25:18.340that I'm providing to this therapist is mine,
00:25:20.940and now I'm giving it to you, BetterHelp,
00:25:23.380You can do whatever you want with it. So that's another way that they're able to get around it. And so one of my big things was like, oh, you know, I can fuck over BetterHelp. If I can, like, go to the state licensing boards in all of the states, I'd start with like California and New York and be like, okay, y'all, therapists are seeing these clients, and they know that the client information that we like ethically legally have to keep confidential is
00:25:53.360being given to BetterHelp and given to like advertisers. Should these therapists be allowed
00:25:59.520to provide therapy on BetterHelp? Should these therapists be disciplined or have their license
00:26:03.660taken away? Not that I want to get those licenses taken away, but maybe I can like put pressure on
00:26:08.400BetterHelp. And the problem is, is that like what I just mentioned, it's the client information
00:26:15.760and they can hand it over. There also is somebody, something in HIPAA where like HIPAA is just like
00:26:21.460Everything has to stay confidential unless maybe it's used for marketing purposes and it's anonymized.
00:26:27.920So like they also have that like gray area.
00:26:31.520There's so many things that are protecting better health.
00:26:34.500It seems, though, that like stepping back to harvest all of this personal information about somebody's mental health and then use it to make advertising revenue.
00:26:49.220it just doesn't sit well it just doesn't feel okay um that shouldn't be happening obviously
00:26:56.980like if i was your therapist now anonymizing your info and selling it to advertisers i would
00:27:01.760lose my license uh and i should um that just shouldn't be a part of the therapy process but
00:27:07.240uh we're in this like funky weird shitty capitalist whatever time we're like that's okay and they're
00:27:14.800incredibly protected and they're going to probably continue to do that and better help is you know
00:27:20.120they interacted with me a little bit by like leaving some comments on some of my tiktok videos
00:27:24.900and now they have they're just ignoring me which is probably a very good business decision on their0.52
00:27:30.500end because like who the fuck am i i don't know i mean you did like your tiktoks had an impact when0.96
00:27:37.760you were describing how they changed their you know their privacy policy i for a hot second i0.97
00:27:43.080thought you were going to say they, you know, because of my TikToks, I got millions of views
00:27:46.600and they changed their privacy policy for the better. But then it was like, oh, they just made
00:27:50.380it even more vague. No, because of me, I made it worse for everybody. But like pointing this out,
00:27:57.860they're just like, cool, we need to be real fucking shady now. So you're welcome, America.0.93
00:28:02.920When I saw the news out of Texas, it had a really deep impact on me in a way that I
00:28:08.840almost can't even articulate why. There was something about the videos that were coming
00:28:13.680out of it that just really hit me in a way that, you know, you think that you're desensitized to
00:28:20.120tragedy and disaster, but something about those videos really stuck with me. And I think seeing
00:28:26.420like the live stream with an Apple logo on it, where I knew that young people were facing
00:28:32.160really scary circumstances. I really can't shake the deep, disturbed way that that,
00:28:42.520how disturbing that was to me. Like, I don't know why I've not been able to sort of like
00:28:46.280move past it, but I have not. And when I woke up again and saw that Travis Scott was partnering
00:28:52.840with BetterHelp, that really, it just seemed like a cherry on top of this exploitation cake
00:28:59.460where these young people had really been deeply exploited in the deepest, deepest ways for profit,
00:29:08.080to make money for corporate interests, whether we're talking about Live Nation, Travis Scott,
00:29:12.560the organizers, Apple, streaming platforms, whatever. And then in the aftermath of that
00:29:18.080horrific, traumatic tragedy, what they were being offered was just another way to serve them up to
00:29:24.500be further mined and exploited. And it was, it was like, it broke my brain. I couldn't even
00:29:29.700conceptualize the depths to how broken so many systems are, where that's the thing they're being
00:29:35.760offered. And even still one month of it. So it's like, it's already shitty what they're being
00:29:39.820offered, but it's not even that long. Some of these kids probably have like complex PTSD. It
00:29:45.140takes longer than a month to treat that. What were your thoughts on that partnership?
00:29:48.860oh yeah uh garbage i thought it was a dumpster fire i thought it was like i felt the same way
00:29:55.820that you felt so yeah it's like a bunch of you know corporations creating trauma and then sending
00:30:02.120those traumatized kids to um better help where they're gonna like mine their data and make a ton
00:30:07.700of money uh it's it was disturbing it was upsetting and it reminded me of when better help
00:30:14.020used to, I still think they kind of do this, but back in like 2018, 2019, they were going to all
00:30:20.600the therapist directories out there that attract, you know, the clients that are looking for
00:30:24.980therapists. And they were just trying to like either buy them up or quote unquote partner with
00:30:30.220them in order to like take all of their business and like direct those users into the BetterHelp
00:30:37.940ecosystem. And so they approached me when I, like, launched Therapy Den, and they're like,
00:30:45.160hey, can we go ahead and take, like, therapist profiles and add them to your directory so that
00:30:52.540if any of the, like, people that are using your directory that, you know, they could, like, find
00:30:57.400one of our BetterHelp therapists and then create services or create, you know, start therapy with
00:31:02.520And every time somebody signs up for BetterHelp through Therapy Den, we'll pay you $300, which is a ton of money because they're like, you could potentially make $80,000 a month because we've had this deal, created this deal with other therapist directories that are the same size as yours.
00:31:25.420And I know those therapist directories and I know the owners and some of them are buddies of mine.
00:31:29.720And so I was like talking to them about like what went on and those therapist directories were like basically taken over and just used as like a funnel in order to like, you know, get even more people to sign up for better help.
00:31:42.960So you don't really own your therapist director anymore.
00:31:45.860They just sort of like take it over because they put thousands and thousands, 20,000 different like therapist profiles or something like on on your directory.
00:31:54.880uh and it's also like therapy done is about like matching people with like a good competent
00:32:02.300therapist that you know is a good fit and better help can't do that at all it's a therapy mill
00:32:06.620um so it didn't feel okay it allowed like lose control like it just didn't feel like a good
00:32:13.320match at all and i like started to that's when i started to like really learn about their privacy
00:32:17.280policy and the data mining and shit like that and i would imagine that like all the marketing that
00:32:22.960they do, that BetterHelp does on all the podcasts and NPR and shit like that, all of those companies
00:32:28.580were probably getting a very nice kickback because BetterHelp was like, hey, on average,
00:32:33.640we make $1,200. We bring in $1,200 when somebody signs up for BetterHelp. We are very much willing
00:32:41.300to pay you $300 when we collect $1,200. Also, we're going to pay the therapist shit. So it's0.99
00:32:48.540not even like we have like too much of an overhead costs. You talk about how the therapists are just,
00:32:54.740not only are they not paid what like, like a comparable amount that they can make in private
00:32:59.960practice or elsewhere, but also, you know, they're, I learned from your TikToks, they're sometimes
00:33:04.280paid by the word. And so once they hit their word count, they kind of have to decide if they want
00:33:08.900to continue treating a client who very well may be in crisis, basically out of the goodness of
00:33:13.380their heart because they care about this client for free. Clients can access their therapist 24
00:33:19.200hours a day, seven days a week, which sounds really good in theory. But then you're like,
00:33:23.820should you have access to a therapist 24 seven? I would say no, that maybe you should have some
00:33:29.240boundaries around how you access your therapist. It's kind of stunning to hear about how much
00:33:34.600money they must be taking in via how much money gets spent, gets given to their actual therapists
00:33:41.980who are like doing the work of sustaining this platform yeah 100 i mean the therapists are
00:33:47.320getting maybe around 30 a little less than 30 an hour um ideally if you're a therapist and you're
00:33:53.240seeing clients you want to get at least 100 an hour that's what we're like aiming for if not more
00:33:57.620if you live in like more expensive cities um but better help is like we will pay you up to 50
00:34:04.960dollars an hour if you work more hours per week so if you work up to 50 hours a week0.91
00:34:12.700you'll get our top pay which is fucking bonkers i don't even understand why that's a pay scale0.81
00:34:20.520that exists like work 15 hours get 30 or less an hour work up to 50 hours a week more i don't know0.98
00:34:27.620that's a whole fucking thing i hate that uh and then it's they pay you based on word count so0.80
00:34:32.940You can't go over the word count that they, like, provide.0.98
00:34:36.600If you do start, like, providing more support,
00:34:39.500if you start texting more support and going over the word count,0.99
00:34:42.900you're working for fucking free, therapist.0.99
00:34:45.000They're not going to pay you for it.0.99
00:34:46.320So maybe they're paying you $30 an hour,
00:34:48.660but it's actually a lot less if you, like,
00:34:50.920feel like you need to give even more support to that client.
00:34:55.180And, of course, just like Uber and Lyft or whatever,
00:34:57.680like, you're not getting benefits, you're a contract,
00:35:00.140you're not, like, getting paid time off, you know,
00:35:02.820like you have to provide all of your equipment and you know so it's just like it's a bunch of0.95
00:35:07.860bullshit uh that therapists are getting exploited and they're able to exploit these therapists0.93
00:35:13.160that are usually like fresh out of grad school or just looking for a little part-time work or0.99
00:35:17.620something and yeah 24-hour access to a therapist clinically no not okay that's not creating
00:35:23.960self-reliance uh you need to be able to kind of like go and do your thing and then be able to
00:35:28.300check back with your therapist. I understand why that's appealing though. But imagine,
00:35:32.600understand that that therapist with a caseload of like 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 clients a week,0.99
00:35:39.020they're getting pinged all the fucking time. So there's no way that a therapist is able,0.98
00:35:44.220but like a therapist must pass to, it's in their contract that they have to respond within 24
00:35:49.300hours, no matter what day or time it is, which is not very realistic. Plus there's
00:35:58.220this like thing where like if there's if better help has like a flood of people signing up they're
00:36:02.320like okay i know that you have a ton of clients but will you take these new clients we'll pay you
00:36:06.760more for these new clients which sort of incentivizes therapists to drop their old clients
00:36:12.060they're not getting paid enough for in the first place to then take the new clients it's such a1.00
00:36:16.340stupid fucked up system i hate it can you tell it's so fucked up and this is not how therapy1.00
00:36:24.000therapy is meant to be this is not how it should look to access mental health care and you know1.00
00:36:28.620in the wake of the astral world thing it's like it is a it's like an exploitation layer cake where
00:36:34.660the clients the potential clients are going to be exploited the therapists running the site are
00:36:39.280being exploited everybody's being exploited except for the tech overlords who like are possibly like
00:36:46.480making money from the people that are being referred from this tragedy honestly talking
00:36:51.120to you has helped me make sense of why it made me so deeply deeply angry and disgusted like i had
00:36:56.800such a visceral reaction also just the use of the word partnership like you know using this tragedy
00:37:02.520as a branding opportunity i really found it deeply deeply like just disgusting and i think talking to
00:37:10.680you has really made it so clear that yeah that wasn't i that was i was almost about to say like0.99
00:37:16.600an irrational response that was a rational response because it is really fucked up and0.98
00:37:20.320is really disgusting yeah it's a very rational response to a very irrational thing that's0.99
00:37:25.840occurring totally you've described all these numbers of like caseloads of 40 or 50 patients
00:37:32.400a week which like what a joke how can you be providing like high quality of care i haven't
00:37:37.280heard you say anything about like the evaluation process or uh you know any sort of quality control
00:37:43.920do you know if they do um like i just have to imagine that the quality of care that patients
00:37:49.760are receiving is pretty low with a caseload like that. But is that something that they
00:37:54.200look at or measure or talk about? Yeah, I don't know. It's a good question. I've never come across
00:38:00.140any sort of like data or survey about the quality of care. So I don't know. And
00:38:06.840I just feel I feel bad for everybody involved. I feel really bad for the therapists that are
00:38:12.480getting burnt out that are kind of like forced to work longer or more hours. And this is I don't
00:38:18.720know. I don't know if I can say this. So, well, whatever. Maybe we'll cut it out. But there's
00:38:26.500how can you say this? If you want to, if you're somebody that's seeing a BetterHelp therapist and
00:38:35.220you really like your therapist, because there's a ton of really great therapists on there,
00:38:39.060and this conversation is upsetting or disturbing you, if you wanted to ask your BetterHelp
00:38:45.840therapist if they have their own private practice and they are accepting clients then that's
00:38:54.240something you can ask them and you can talk to them about the better help therapists obviously
00:38:58.900are not allowed to be like i have a private practice if you want to see me there and you
00:39:04.240know even pay me if you like pay that therapist the same amount that you're giving better help
00:39:09.120then what their hourly rate has doubled or tripled, you know, by that time.
00:39:15.260So, so, because I get a lot of like feedback, like, oh, but I love my BetterHelp therapist.
00:39:20.140Well, stick with that BetterHelp therapist.
00:41:57.620It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:42:05.560Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:42:14.700Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:42:46.680Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:42:49.820unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling
00:42:57.120that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted,
00:43:04.660stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:43:10.720They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with
00:43:16.260Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:43:27.240Let's get right back into it. Now, I'm not the only one who has a problem with BetterHelp's
00:43:32.180partnership with Travis Scott in the wake of the Astroworld tragedy. The response has not been
00:43:37.380good, and BetterHelp is working overtime to correct what they're calling misinformation
00:43:42.400information about their platform. Now, it's worth noting that BetterHelp waited until the
00:43:47.340partnership got negative reactions online to clarify pretty basic details about the
00:43:52.300arrangement. Frankly, making patient protection seem like kind of an afterthought. They released
00:43:58.480an FAQ where they say that people who use the free month of BetterHelp services will not be
00:44:03.400billed after that month is up. And they say that Travis Scott isn't making any money from the
00:44:08.320partnership. Now, I've heard a lot of tech company corporate doublespeak in my day, and I'd like the
00:44:14.460company to clarify whether this also pertains to any business or philanthropic entities Travis Scott
00:44:19.720might be affiliated with. They also answer the frequently asked question, is information members
00:44:25.060enter on Better Health ever sold to advertising platforms or third parties? Now, they answer this
00:44:30.680with an emphatic no, period. But that can't be the whole story because on their own privacy policy
00:44:36.720In the section called purposes for which information is used, they say your information may be used to, quote, personalized website experience, including targeted offers and ads throughout our websites, third party sites and via email or text message.
00:44:51.380They also say, quote, we may share your information with any subsidiaries or parent companies within our corporate group.
00:44:58.460So who are these other companies in their corporate group and what products are being advertised?
00:45:02.920Is Better Health using your personal mental information to buy ads or sell ads?
00:45:08.720Why rely on such vague language when discussing something as important as our health and privacy?
00:45:14.480I believe Better Health is intentionally exploiting vague language and gray areas in their privacy policies to mislead the public, which under normal circumstances is bad.
00:45:23.860But it's especially egregious to do that after a tragedy.
00:45:27.920Do you feel like the public is owed a little bit of transparency about this partnership?
00:45:32.340I feel like especially given that the folks who were at that festival are like a lot of them are young people.
00:45:38.920I feel like it is a public like a public good for BetterHelp and or Travis Scott to say, hey, we're doing this therapy, this therapy partnership for folks who were impacted by this tragedy.
00:45:50.240Here's who's making money on it. Here's how your data is going to be used.
00:45:53.740you know here like whether travis scott better help or both are making some sort of like cut
00:46:00.780or kickback do you feel like it's in the public interest for us to have that like information in
00:46:06.460a transparent way oh my god 100 yes and like in my most recent tiktok video that's on twitter and
00:46:13.420everywhere else uh i'm saying that like what's going on like let's be clear here who's getting
00:46:20.020paid? How do you continue care after that one month? How much is it going to cost in
00:46:27.340order to continue? It's just all so murky. So yeah, I would love if there was more transparency
00:46:33.420around it. But the way that BetterHelp operates is just like, they're very good at making
00:46:37.600shit real vague. And unfortunately, whenever I push against them or anyone pushes up against0.87
00:46:42.940them, they just get even more vague and more vague and get into that gray area. So hopefully
00:46:47.600this will like get more people to become concerned and ask them to be more transparent about what
00:46:53.040they're doing and the deal that's being set up with Travis Scott. Yeah. I just feel like we're
00:46:57.500in this age where things that technology that is meant to be like a wellness focused thing or a
00:47:04.280mental health focused thing, we're in this weird gray area where everything feels kind of scammy
00:47:09.860and like not really regulated. And so we have all of these apps that are sort of mental health
00:47:15.740ish or like wellness ish or like medical care ish and you just have to act like are these
00:47:22.600regulated are they safe am i actually getting good information from like a competent trained
00:47:27.700medical health professional i wonder like do you feel the same way that we're in this sort of wild
00:47:32.400west where there are so many tech platforms offering us wellness or you know medical care
00:47:39.680but in this very gray area way where they can sort of avoid having to answer some of these
00:47:45.260questions about you know the quality of care that you're actually getting oh yeah for sure and and
00:47:52.020they're so savvy they're so slick they know exactly what they're doing so you just kind of
00:47:57.300like give this like these ish services and it works well enough and also you know uh all these
00:48:05.120like podcasts or mpr or whoever like it's such a good look for them like oh therapy you know like
00:48:12.560It looks like it's so nice to, quote unquote, partner with them because it sort of like lifts their brand up, you know?
00:48:20.040So it's just like this feel-good, lovely thing, but we don't know what's going on like right behind the scenes.0.99
00:49:06.720And it's I mean, you've said a mouthful.
00:49:08.260And I know in the podcast space specifically that BetterHelp has a, it's like one of those ubiquitous brands that you hear.
00:49:16.440If you listen to podcasts, you've definitely heard a BetterHelp ad.
00:49:18.560And I have, you know, friends and colleagues who I'm sure do BetterHelp ads.
00:49:22.800And I'm not trying to like call anybody out, but I also feel like you have to take a little bit of responsibility for the, for like, not, so it's not just a financial arrangement where they pay you and you read the ad.
00:49:36.780But if you sound like you're endorsing their values and endorsing their practices, and if you're using your like NPR voice to make this service seem really good and progressive and like a good idea, like I do think we have to step back and ask some hard questions of ourselves about whether or not we're allowing brands whose values do not align with our own to be kind of brand washed by our like, you know, slick podcaster voice.
00:50:06.780Or, you know, or like the relationship that podcast listeners have with their hosts, right?
00:50:12.140Like, I feel like it like it exploits the connection that listeners have with their favorite podcast host to make these to make brands that are not so good seem like they're actually aligned with their values, I guess.