00:03:37.500Sleeping Giants was so successful that they contributed to Breitbart seeing a 90% drop in ad revenue.
00:03:44.160They also contributed to a broader conversation about how reputable brands are funding extremism by spending ad money on websites that publish hate speech.
00:03:53.280So this should be a success story, right?
00:03:56.280In July, Nandini published a scathing piece on Medium saying that while she believed she was working with Matt as a partner, he gaslighted her out of the movement they built together.
00:04:07.140While their working relationship started on a good note,
00:04:09.980Matt began taking high-profile speaking engagements
00:11:42.120So we're gonna dump Kellogg's in the sink0.99
00:11:46.100something like that it was so stupid um but it gave us our first international headline so that0.99
00:11:50.900was really cool um but yeah the first the first couple of months was just like just like every1.00
00:11:56.540every so often some big brand would come out and be like yeah we're not we don't support this shit0.87
00:12:01.100and then um after a while we we felt like we could you know start working on other things0.97
00:12:10.120The first time we moved out of the, or sort of grew out of the Breitbart work was when we decided to target Bill O'Reilly's advertisers. Bill O'Reilly had been sexually harassing his colleagues in the workplace for a period of decades. And the New York Times reported on it. We were like, well, this really does, this fits into our, our mission statement of making bigotry and sexism unprofitable.
00:12:38.620and we felt like this is something we could take on so we um we decided to contact bill o'reilly
00:12:45.320advertisers using the same exact mo that we did with bright bar just you know presenting them
00:12:50.740with the information and letting them make their own decision and bill o'reilly lost dozens of
00:12:57.720advertisers and a couple months later he was on spring break and or an unplanned vacation or
00:13:05.980whatever heavy scare quotes around that i know right yeah and then he was he was gone and they
00:13:14.440were like wow we we're really on to something and um and then we went on to uh target tucker
00:13:22.180carlson's advertisers he's lost over i believe 80 advertisers over the past uh two years that
00:13:29.380We've been working on that. His show is basically unprofitable. It's one of the highest rated shows
00:13:37.360on television. It just doesn't bring in any money. Yeah. Just as a side note, one of my day jobs
00:13:42.480involves working with a feminist activist group and we've targeted Tucker Carlson over the years.
00:13:46.740And I don't know what the deal is, but it's like that guy just keeps hanging on. We can't,
00:13:51.660we can't seem to get him out of here. I think it's a lot of personal spite,
00:13:55.260to be honest because after we got we got there there was one advertiser um who uh their uh their
00:14:03.600their language learning app called babble and they put out quite the blistering statement on
00:14:09.320their tucker carlson ads um they were sort of caught uh caught unawares and they responded to
00:14:17.180our tweet saying uh this is uh we're so sorry we never um you know we're disappointed that our ads
00:14:24.860showed up on Tucker Carlson we find his rhetoric to be repugnant and that just triggered them
00:14:31.980um they released I think their first statement specifically calling us out um it was us media
00:14:39.300matters and move on.org and it was actually I mean I was very proud of that I mean we're just
00:14:45.240two people running an account in our spare time so I felt like I felt pretty proud of
00:14:54.860proud of ourselves then you should definitely feel so proud of the work that you accomplished
00:14:59.300um with sleeping giants even though it you know you should no one can take that away from you
00:15:04.560that those are huge wins and also huge you know culture changing moments you know this idea that
00:15:12.380yeah brands do have a responsibility to be a little bit choosy about where their money goes
00:15:16.200we should be pressuring brands to open their eyes to where they spend their money like that's a
00:15:21.020huge cultural shift that I don't think existed before your work. So you should definitely
00:15:25.200feel very, very proud and accomplished about that. Thank you.
00:15:30.200So when did things start to feel not so good working with Matt on Sleeping Giants?
00:15:33.980Yeah. So we had a really good relationship from the beginning. He was very nice to me. And I also,
00:15:45.960I admired him a lot and I never imagined that there would ever be problems because it was like
00:15:54.240we're both here every day putting in the work and I think there was a lot of mutual respect.
00:16:01.700At least that's what it felt like. When Matt realized that he was about to be doxed by the
00:16:06.540Daily Caller, he went to the New York Times to sort of get ahead of the story and during that
00:16:14.340time asked me whether I would like to be interviewed for the story. And I guess I, I mean, I, when he
00:16:20.980said that, I think I, I assumed that I was being asked as a partner. I spoke to the reporter. I
00:16:27.220told her, you know, how I was involved in all the stuff that we were doing and, you know, a little
00:16:33.720bit of background detail on, on how we worked. And she asked me if I was, she asked me what my
00:16:40.340title was. And I said, co-founder. And then she was like, great. And then she comes back the next
00:16:45.320day and does a little fact checking. And, um, and she's like, by the way, your partner said that
00:16:50.280you are not a co-founder. And I was like, oh, okay. And I didn't want to make a big deal out
00:16:56.300of it. So I didn't, I was like, just go with whatever he says. But, um, that was sort of
00:17:01.360the first indicator that something was off. Um, and then after that, my, uh, you know,
00:17:10.480the story came out and my partner went on to take interviews with, uh, sort of high profile,
00:17:17.320uh, outlets like Plats of America with, um, Kara Swisher spoke with Katie Couric. And
00:17:26.000It was after his interview with Adweek that I became concerned about everything because he had called himself, he was positioning himself as co-founder, which was fine by me.
00:17:40.740But in that article, I was positioned or portrayed as one of the individuals helping him run the accounts.
00:17:47.740So at that point, I called a meeting and I said, hey, listen, I don't want to be portrayed as your helper or your assistant.
00:17:54.980It's important that I, that I'm also portrayed as a leader because, you know, I, I have been involved in this work for the whole time. And I realized that I'm in a really unique position. Like both of us, we're both in a very unique position to be able to influence the advertising industry.
00:18:17.140and I want to be able to speak at conferences and events and I want to be present at the table when
00:18:23.840some of these big decisions are being made and that's why it's important to me to have a title
00:18:30.460um so I I you know we had that discussion and he said um I completely understand let's get you a
00:18:37.920title you can call yourself um you know whatever you want obviously not founder I'm the founder
00:18:43.180So you can call yourself, you know, come up with a name. So I said, how about founding organizer? And he agreed to that. So that is, that's what I called myself for about a year.
00:18:55.720During that time, he he continued to position himself as founder, of course, and was able to leverage that to to get invited to big conferences.
00:19:07.980You know, I don't know, for example, South by Southwest and Advertising Week and so on.
00:19:16.020And I just kind of felt like I was flailing.
00:19:19.860I didn't really have an opportunity to, um, to, you know, to, to speak at anything like that
00:19:26.640because I, I mean, I, I didn't have a title and B, I didn't have any contacts in the industry.
00:19:33.740I truly was sort of cast out on my own. Again, like advertising isn't really my world. I don't
00:19:40.300have connections in that industry. I worked in like the tech startup scene. It's a totally
00:19:46.200different world. So, um, so it was, it was, it was frustrating. I couldn't get to where I wanted
00:19:53.740to be. So what I did was I asked him for, I basically asked him for the scraps. I was like,
00:19:59.280can I like, would you mind telling me about some of these conferences that you're going to? I would
00:20:04.760love to come along. I would like to be your plus one. Um, you know, we can work the room together.
00:20:11.100We can meet more people together. Um, you know, I was always really careful about, I don't want
00:20:15.680to steal your thunder. I don't want the attention. I just want to be working in the background
00:20:19.380to, I don't know, to make something happen. And he would, you know, there was a power
00:20:30.300differential there because he, this is his industry and he's older than me and he knows
00:20:36.800more people than me. And he would bring that up quite frequently in the calls that we had
00:20:41.080where I was sort of outlining my issues so he never really you know he'd always say yeah sure
00:20:48.080I will you know I'll let you know I'll give you I'll give you a shout if these if these things
00:20:55.080happen but he never did there was a couple of other things that concerned me I didn't have any
00:21:01.560access to the general inquiries email just like I just didn't know what was coming into
00:21:07.320into the organization like was he receiving media opportunities there
00:21:13.620or opportunities to speak private consulting opportunities these were the kinds of things
00:21:20.380that weren't coming to me necessarily um he was asking me to he had asked me to
00:21:26.320send all press requests to him because that would help us stay on message so you don't want too many
00:21:34.240people speaking to the press. I thought that was a little weird because, you know, I was running
00:21:40.060the Facebook account completely independently. It's not like I was getting permission from him
00:21:45.660before I wrote posts or anything like that. So it's not like I would muddle the message because
00:21:50.820I know what the message is. I write the message every day. I don't, I just, I don't like, I'm not
00:21:56.160involved in anything related to the merch shop. I don't know how much money is being made. I don't
00:22:00.720know how it's being spent. When I asked for access to that, he said, you're just going to have to
00:22:09.040trust me. And yeah, I didn't know what to do with that. We'll be right back.
00:22:21.700In today's volatile market, having an investment strategy you can trust is essential. When it
00:22:26.880comes to your money, knowledge is power. Get the advice you need from Alan Cameron on the Sunday
00:22:32.280Money Show. Alan Cameron has the experience and expertise to help you navigate the growing
00:22:37.560spectrum of investment options. What's best for you? Stocks or RSPs, gold, real estate,
00:22:42.980or Bitcoin? Visit alancameron.com and hear Alan at his new time, 12 p.m. Sunday on News Talk 1010.
00:22:56.880podcast than ad-supported streaming music from spotify and pandora and as the number one podcaster
00:23:02.200iheart's twice as large as the next two combined so whatever your customers listen to they'll hear
00:23:07.060your message plus only iheart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio
00:23:12.020think podcasting can help your business think iheart streaming radio and podcasting let us show
00:23:18.140you at iheartadvertising.com that's iheartadvertising.com when i was 14 years old i
00:23:25.040was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how
00:23:31.400other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the
00:23:37.220Survivor Files. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up don't say0.94
00:23:45.400anything. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up
00:23:52.920Without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:23:55.640I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:24:03.240They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:24:07.140But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:24:10.600They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:24:14.220Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:24:22.000If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:24:28.900This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:24:41.060I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:24:48.180I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:27:19.900You're not going to get invited to speak.
00:27:21.780You're not going to get the consulting opportunity.
00:27:25.420You're not going to be able to build up your platform to be able to have a bigger footprint
00:27:30.420to do the kind of work and make the kind of change that you want to make.
00:27:33.700And so when women, particularly women of color, advocate for themselves to get the title, to get the credit, it's not because we're fame hungry, you know, attention hungry, you know, spotlight hogs.
00:27:48.140It's because if we don't have those things, we're not going to be able to have the kind of impact that we want to be able to have.
00:27:53.840And so I think that, I mean, I guess I know that I have often felt a little skittish about asking for a title or because I don't want to look like I'm trying to, you know, be a fame, a fame hog or something.
00:28:05.340When in reality, it's just how it's just the nature of how a lot of these businesses work.
00:28:13.000I mean, you said it. That's exactly right.
00:28:15.780I was so afraid of looking like we're being perceived as someone who just wanted attention that I tried to sidestep that issue by by denying myself credit and by sort of actively staying away from the titles that would have given me the power I needed as a co-founder.
00:28:36.500when I finally made that shift from a nonsense title,
00:28:41.500founding organizer doesn't mean anything.
00:28:43.220It's like assistant to the regional manager.
00:30:34.020It was after, it was after he DM'd me a picture of himself accepting a canned gold lion in June, 2019.
00:30:47.000And it was super casual, like, hey, we just want a canned gold lion.
00:30:51.380And he hadn't told me he was going to be in France.
00:30:55.380he hadn't told like I found out through Instagram that he was in
00:30:59.940can I had to dm him and be like oh cool you're in Europe and uh and yeah it was it was um it
00:31:07.860was really shocking and I had that was a very difficult week for me because first of all I
00:31:18.580as I said I'm not from the industry so I I knew the can gold line was a big deal but I didn't
00:31:24.360realize that it was like the Oscars of the ad industry. And I was receiving messages from
00:31:29.840all sorts of people that I, that never talked to me were like, wow, congratulations. And it was,
00:31:36.400it was, it was like additional emotional labor for me. I had to, I had to basically lie on his
00:31:48.100behalf. You know, people ask me why I wasn't there. And if I said the truth, I wasn't invited.
00:31:53.840I wasn't told that would, that would sort of blow our cover. Right. And I didn't want to create
00:32:00.500problems for sleeping giants. So I just, I was like, yeah, I just couldn't make it.
00:32:06.600So I realized at that point that I was, I was not actually ever going to be made a part of this
00:32:16.180campaign. I was being actively erased from the story. Um, I was not mentioned anywhere
00:32:23.520at one of our, our sort of highest points of our campaign.
00:32:33.200And I realized that all the things that I had been doing over the past year were only serving
00:32:39.420to, were only serving him and allowing him to sort of accumulate power. And I was giving up
00:32:45.980my power. I was giving up my power when I sent over press requests to him, which allowed him
00:32:53.500to build out his resume and, you know, and say, you know, I've spoken to or I have been quoted in
00:33:01.380all these news outlets. I was giving up my ability to do the same. I was giving up my power when
00:33:08.280I allowed myself to be called founding organizer and being consistently seen as a number two
00:33:16.420and someone who doesn't necessarily know what's going on or can speak for the organization.
00:33:26.460So I made an executive decision over my own life. I promoted myself to co-founder.
00:33:34.640and the first opportunity I had to do that was about two months later.
00:33:40.440It was actually exactly this time last year
00:33:44.360when I was preparing for a presentation for a talk in Scotland
00:33:50.960and just a few days before I was looking for a fresh example
00:33:55.440of tech platforms being irresponsible0.64
00:33:58.200and I went to the Ku Klux Klan's website and found a PayPal widget on their site0.73
00:34:04.640And my brain is so broken that I don't know what a big deal is anymore.0.63
00:34:10.520I just tweeted it out like I tweet a million other things.
00:34:12.940And I moved on, you know, and a couple of days later, just right after I gave that big talk.
00:34:21.400Where someone had changed my title, bless them, from from co-founder, from founding organizer to co-founder without my knowledge.
00:34:33.120But, you know, again, bless them. So a couple of days after that, PayPal banned the KKK from their services at the BBC called me asking for a quote.
00:34:46.060And I told them that I was co-founder of Sleeping Giants.
00:34:50.200The day after that, I got a profile out in an ad industry magazine called The Drum.
00:34:58.360it turns out that the reporter that I spoke to the first reporter I spoke to after the conference
00:35:04.720was uh doing a profile on me and so I had this all of a sudden I had this profile on me calling
00:35:12.020calling me the co-founder of Sleeping Giants and they had you know they had it was like a full
00:35:19.000piece on what I think of the ad industry and how things are going. Wow what did that feel like for
00:35:25.580you? It felt like I had just come into my power. Like I had just stepped into my power. I was
00:35:33.580actually, um, I was with my friend, Claire, who is now my business partner. And we just looked at
00:35:43.700each other. I mean, she knew that I had been going through a lot and we just looked at each other and
00:35:47.900we were like, wow, everything is, is turning around. Look how quickly things turn around when
00:35:53.560you claim what's yours fuck yeah I'm like I'm like on the verge of tears listening to this0.94
00:36:00.880I think your story is your story is my story your story is the story of so many women of color out0.99
00:36:07.400there I think that we are often told that there is virtue in just keep your head down and do your
00:36:13.480work and be behind the scenes there's a virtue in making yourself small and not claiming that power
00:36:20.020And then when you ride in that lane of making yourself small, of not walking in your power, and then you finally say, I'm done with this. Today is the day that I abandon that and I walk in my power. The feeling, like, it is like nothing else. And it comes from inside, right?
00:36:38.640And I think that we are sold this lie that the path of just keep grinding, keep your head down, and you'll get your reward, you'll get your credit someday, maybe, it just really doesn't serve us.
00:39:28.280down to connect me with an opportunity.
00:39:30.100Because it doesn't cost them anything.
00:39:32.680And I really think we need to reject this mindset that tells us that we have to be stingy when it comes to resources or putting somebody else on.
00:39:39.820Because what's better is if we lift others up as we climb.
00:39:43.480And all of our work is better when we empower each other.
00:39:46.320There's truly enough room for all of us.
00:41:21.620Like, I just don't think they knew what to do
00:41:25.120with a woman like in the story which made no sense to me because in the New York Times article in our0.61
00:41:31.540big coming out article we were equally weighted visually you know the pictures were the same size
00:41:37.760why did no one ask about me like where did the girl go
00:41:42.400where is she at what does she think about the issues I mean it is a campaign against
00:41:49.980bigotry and sexism where is the brown girl so yeah I think the industry as well as the media0.76
00:41:58.580is looking for their um for their white man savior which is a problem but
00:42:07.300I believe that I believe that I um I mean I've taken those lessons to heart and I
00:42:17.200I see how these stories are built now and I am dead set on never letting that happen again, at least in in my life and in my in my work and the people whose lives that I touch with the company that Claire and I ended up starting after a year of working together, researching things together, interviewing people together.
00:42:43.100we launched this company as co-founders as equal partners there was never any question about it
00:42:51.080and uh I have name dropped her in well I guess in our relationship now as we started as we started
00:42:58.680this company I'm sort of the more well-known person and I that sort of gives me that sort of
00:43:05.560puts me in a place of privilege in our relationship and so I use that to name drop her in everything
00:43:12.180that i do and when i see an opportunity where i think you know an opportunity comes to me
00:43:18.100that i think she's better suited for um i send it over to her and she does the same for me
00:44:47.620Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.0.98
00:44:52.040I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:44:56.500I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:45:03.580They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:45:08.020But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:45:11.460They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:45:15.100Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:45:23.540If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:45:29.500This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:45:41.960I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:45:49.060I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:45:52.200From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:45:58.980It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:46:06.100Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:46:15.680Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:50:10.360So Check My Ads is, we started it as a brand safety consultancy to, A, help companies check their ads to understand where their ads are going, to help them identify hate speech and disinformation in their media buy.
00:50:28.740and we also on the other hand help them to become more intentional about what they want to support
00:50:37.100because that's sort of what brands are looking at these days. There's so many reasons that
00:50:44.840our existing channels are toxic or brand unsafe or causing trouble in society that brands and
00:50:53.360marketers are really starting to explore ways to be smarter and spend their money in a way that's
00:51:02.500more aligned with their values. So we're helping brands to define their own rules and define
00:51:12.220where the line is when it comes to their media buy. So that really helps them to start thinking
00:51:19.840about what they want to support in a way that doesn't feel political we want them to be able
00:51:27.660to have that conversation through a shared language where they but they're able to sit
00:51:33.460down and say we shouldn't be advertising on a website like this because it's not aligned with
00:51:39.940you know this value or um you know or this campaign that we have in place and to do so in
00:51:47.160a way that doesn't make people feel uncomfortable. So we want people to, we want to be able to
00:51:51.520facilitate those conversations within a company so they can make those decisions ahead of time
00:51:56.360instead of having to respond to them, you know, when it turns into a massive issue on social media.
00:52:02.600Nandini is fully a leader in her industry. Her innovative work helps shift culture and build
00:52:08.400paths for accountability online that anyone with a Twitter account can participate in.
00:52:13.480And now, she's building on what she's learned to refine the way she makes change.0.86
00:52:18.780None of this would be possible if she had just kept her head down,0.89
00:52:21.860made herself small, and followed somebody else's plan for her life.
00:52:25.900After she published her Medium piece, in a tweet, Matt apologized
00:52:30.220and acknowledged Nandini as a rightful co-founder of Sleeping Giants.0.93
00:52:34.520And now, she wants to make sure that other women1.00
00:52:37.180know there's nothing wrong with wanting credit for your work.0.99
00:52:40.760What would you say to a woman out there that's listening that, you know, is keeping your head down?0.99
00:52:46.880She's doing the grind. She's afraid to step into her power, as you put it.1.00
00:52:50.700You know, she wants credit. She wants that title, but she doesn't know where to start.0.99
00:52:55.380And she's afraid to even to even start that journey.
00:52:58.420What would you say to someone like that?0.99
00:53:02.780I would say that she can start building her own power today by writing.0.71
00:53:10.040I was able to start building my power when I had nothing and nobody simply by writing a little bit
00:53:17.560on LinkedIn every day. Just a little bit about current events, about how I feel about something
00:53:23.220that happened, my opinion, my perspective. No one asked. And for a long time, no one cared.
00:53:30.080But when you do it every day, you demonstrate your knowledge and your insight. You represent
00:53:36.440what you're capable of you show people how you think and how you approach problems and people
00:53:43.600do start to pay attention you do start to build out the the the people who care the people who
00:53:50.260want to engage with you and uh and from there you grow out the you can start building out the
00:53:56.940relationships that you need to either you know find your next place a less toxic place a place
00:54:05.080where you can be more powerful and um and at the very least to to build your personal influence
00:54:13.860that was something that really helped me was just positioning myself as a thought leader
00:54:18.660even if it was to no one but me right exactly you just you get used to saying
00:54:24.160i that was something that i never did because i thought who cares like who cares what i think
00:54:30.800write. I don't even care what I think. That was the attitude I had about myself. So just the
00:54:37.300simple act of saying I, this is what I think, was quite radical for me. Because what you think
00:54:45.580matters. So what you write matters too. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech? Or just
00:54:54.160want to say hi? You can reach us at hello at tangody.com. You can also find transcripts for
00:54:58.740today's episode at tangody.com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me,
00:55:02.780Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is
00:55:07.160our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato is
00:55:11.780our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,
00:55:16.400rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
00:55:20.180check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:55:28.740if your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality
00:55:40.420welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone
00:55:46.620who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse each week
00:55:51.140we're connecting the dots between books the internet and pop culture with your favorite
00:55:55.180writers book talk creators and plenty of overthought opinions listen to pro society on
00:56:02.200the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts i survived nine months in
00:56:09.180captivity and i've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed
00:56:14.560them i'm elizabeth smart and these are the survivor files every week i'm with survivors