00:05:15.080If you've got a Bored Ape Abby on Twitter, there's nothing you can tell me that I need to know. I1.00
00:05:18.460feel literally there was some tweet I don't even remember what the tweet was but I like thought it
00:05:22.900was funny and I liked it and then I realized that the person had like a blue check mark I
00:05:26.840immediately unliked it because I was like no I feel this feels wrong like it feels like you
00:05:30.560shouldn't be funny like I feel like you stole this from somebody you shouldn't have a blue
00:05:34.800check mark and be funny like something's wrong there yeah you don't get my laugh if you're also
00:05:39.040giving Elon Musk $8. I love it. Okay. Well, I want to start our first newscast of the year
00:05:47.880talking about this really interesting new piece from Kate Lindsay in Bustle that I've seen a lot
00:05:52.520of people sharing online called Dating Apps Are In Their Flop Era. The piece posits that if you
00:05:58.080met your partner or had a good experience on a dating app like Hinge or Tinder, as the piece
00:06:03.700said you basically caught the last chopper out of numb because apparently the dating apps are a hot
00:06:10.220mess now is this do you have any experience with dating apps that's fascinating this is the first
00:06:15.340that i've heard of this story but yeah i i i'm single i use dating apps uh i am like staunchly
00:06:23.400beginning of gen z i guess but um that is really interesting i definitely have some weird dating
00:06:29.060app stories um but uh you know i think especially as like the ways people date has kind of been
00:06:37.260changing but uh yeah no this is the first time here i get this that's interesting okay so she
00:06:42.600writes talk to your friends scroll social media or even just sit in a bar and listen and you'll
00:06:47.120encounter a similar sentiment millennials are tired of dating apps and gen z singles might not
00:06:52.240bother with them a 2023 survey of college and grad students found that 79 do not use dating apps
00:06:58.180even once a month, the peace finds. So it sounds like the companies that run these dating apps are
00:07:03.300also feeling this shift. Match Group, which owns a bunch of them, Tinder, Hinge, Match.com, and
00:07:08.560OkCupid, saw its stock price drop 40% in the past year. Bumble, whose CEO Whitney Wolf-Hurd stepped
00:07:15.300down in November after 10 years at the app. And also Field is struggling through a disastrous
00:07:20.780rebrand. I actually, the only dating app I have ever used with any kind of regularity is Field.
00:07:26.780It's an app that's, like, for queer people and, like, non-monogamous people and, like, I guess, like, kinky people.0.79
00:07:33.980Field just had a really, I guess the only way I can describe it is, like, disastrous rebrand.0.89
00:07:40.600That sounds like a good bit to get into on the Patreon because, like, I have a lot to say about it.
00:07:45.600But all of these apps, Field, Hinge, Bumble, Tinder, are really feeling this change.
00:07:51.080Match Group said that they saw their paying users decline for the fourth straight quarter,
00:07:56.320and a 2023 Pew Research study found that while 41% of online dating users age 30 or older have
00:08:03.260paid for the apps, just 22% of users under 30, which is the demographic they are really looking
00:08:08.580to court, have done the same. And yeah, I just think it sounds like younger folks are just like,
00:08:13.840I'm good on these apps. What do you think? I definitely actually thought I agree with. I
00:08:18.500don't know anybody that um I'm in my mid-20s I don't know anybody that pays for a dating app
00:08:23.920um uh yeah I definitely it's interesting too like hearing that those stats because I I do
00:08:31.220think like of me and my peers people that I know that use dating apps I don't know a lot of people
00:08:35.700that use them like thinking yes this is how I'm gonna find like a long-term relationship like to
00:08:40.660be fully honest most people you know I don't know like I use hinge a lot but that's like there's
00:08:46.080like a thing where you can put like what you're looking for I don't think I've seen a single
00:08:49.120person put like long just long-term relationship or whatever it's all like just see what happens
00:08:54.240sort your relate like which is that I don't know I feel like that maybe it's also just like a that's
00:08:58.160how my we're seeing dating now um that's interesting about field too because I was
00:09:03.360gonna say the thing that I keep seeing about dating apps is like and also like I mean whatever
00:09:08.080like I'm queer I'm only I only date other queer people um there's so many people that are like
00:09:15.460non-monogamous i had to ask my little brother what enm meant over winter break
00:09:22.380how did that conversation go um it was really funny because he was really like he's like 19
00:09:28.640he was just like it's ethical non-monogamy and i was like oh okay what like they already put
00:09:33.400non-monogamous why don't we need to put that i also think this is really funny because i'm like
00:09:36.800does that mean like can somebody call themselves like unethically
00:09:40.180i know exactly like i was like do they really need to clarify ethical um and then of course
00:09:47.520my dad overheard this conversation and we had to explain the concept of open relationships to him
00:09:51.640but yeah um anyways so it's definitely there's you know some generational that i don't know i'm all
00:10:00.840for people doing the non-monogamy thing you know there's different ways of dating different ways
00:10:05.540But yeah, that's definitely, I think, the majority of what I've been seeing on there, which I don't, again, I don't think that's a really bad thing, but I can see like from a, you know, the corporation's perspective, not having people paying for the app or whatever is probably not great for them.
00:10:23.800Yeah. First of all, I have to say, I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall in the Pat household during this conversation.
00:10:30.940Yeah, so it does sound like exactly what you're saying is happening, that younger people just aren't feeling the idea of paying for this experience. And basically, you know, I guess I consider myself a millennial, like a generation older than you. And for my generation, dating apps and hookup apps were kind of considered the norm of the millennial experience, right? Like, they were part of what it meant to be a young millennial when I was coming up.
00:10:58.660And I think I kind of came up in the heyday of those apps. I didn't really use them myself, but a lot of my friends did. That was the thing. And I think that for the younger generation, it's just fatigue. I think people are experiencing fatigue around these apps and just not using them the way that they used to.
00:11:16.100I also think the experience of just swiping after swiping after swiping and then having to go on the date and be like, oh, do you have any siblings? Oh, what do you do? I think there might be a lot of feelings of exhaustion associated with the experience and what it feels like to be on these apps.
00:11:34.580And part of it does just sound like the experience of showing up there kind of sucks now.
00:11:40.640The most popular apps are free, but they really encourage you to pay to interact with people.
00:11:46.120And basically, it sounds like they are paywalling all the good profiles.
00:11:49.680On Hinge, you might know this because you use it, you can only interact with profiles of
00:11:55.020people who are getting lots of attention or who the algorithm thinks that you might be
00:11:59.000a good match for, thinks that you might like, if you send them a rose.
00:12:02.180users get one free rose per week to send and in order to regularly engage with those standout
00:12:08.460profiles you would need to buy more roses starting at $3.99 each or limit your options to Hinge's
00:12:14.940general algorithm where it sounds like they keep all the duds all the people that they know you're
00:12:20.180not gonna like they'll show you those people for free but if you want to see any of the like good
00:12:24.400ones you gotta pay oh my god yeah I it's interesting too because again like I said like I
00:12:30.540I'm on the queer side of Hinge but like I'll talk to my little sister about this and like she
00:12:36.020she's straight and like she is only like and I it's a totally different experience like Hinge is
00:12:41.360completely different for her um I guess the one other thing I think for the I don't know if this
00:12:46.600is part of the generational thing because I definitely do think like people still use it
00:12:49.600but I think with the especially people looking at it more casually like it's like playing a game
00:12:54.140like it's like you're playing swipes you're like it's which um yeah I don't know I feel like
00:13:00.180sometimes like a lot more people that i'll talk to that are younger will look at it almost like a
00:13:04.920video game that you're playing where it's just like or like you're you're getting like points
00:13:09.720your likes are to i don't know i was talking to okay now i'm terrified that somebody i match with
00:13:14.580on hinge is gonna listen to this um if you are this i'm obviously not talking about they're not
00:13:18.240talking about you but um uh like i was like it's almost like a like it's like the serotonin boost
00:13:24.600is like the appeal of it like i'm like i'm not even really looking for like any more than i
00:13:30.100am in like any other space for like dating it's more just like the like oh like you're getting
00:13:33.880points that show you you're attractive or you're whatever because people are liking your profile
00:13:38.140um but yeah i and i could definitely and again straight women i'm so sorry for y'all like i'm
00:13:45.700sure you haven't but just i spent from talking to my sister and like my my handful of straight
00:13:51.480friends um i it's it sounds rough it sounds rough it does i i have heard i i mean i should say like
00:13:58.240I have been off the market for a very long time, so I don't really know what it's like out there.
00:14:03.740But I have heard horror stories about the kinds of things that men will say and do to women on first dates.
00:14:11.820I also feel for people who are single dating, it doesn't sound like it's always very fun.
00:14:19.060And it doesn't sound like the addition of these apps, which at one time I do think came with the promise of like,
00:14:25.200oh, you'll get to swipe through lots of people and you'll get to go on lots of dates and it will
00:14:28.360feel really good and you'll get to have your pick. I don't know that it feels that way anymore. So
00:14:33.680yeah, I just, I feel for everybody. Yeah, definitely. And also I will say that the rose
00:14:40.600thing, I just think the vibes might feel weird. Like if I knew that somebody paid $4 just to talk
00:14:49.780to me that our initial conversation I just it doesn't feel like the kind of vibe that I would
00:14:57.040want to start a potential relationship with and so I just feel like that system might already be
00:15:03.540setting folks up for an experience that just maybe feels a little bit weird yeah I because it's I
00:15:10.420think on hinge you get like a free rose every day but like I honestly I don't think I've ever used
00:15:15.120them and like i've seen i don't know like that's people who sent me roses but you know
00:15:20.760but it's always like i never know what the like i don't know i mean the thing about dating apps
00:15:26.480is you're not meeting in person so it's hard to pick up like the social cues or whatever but i'm
00:15:29.560always like i don't even really know what that means like did you just like really like my
00:15:32.800profile or were like were you like i guess i'm gonna use my one rose today whatever like yeah
00:15:37.100um and it is a little weird like it is i yeah i never thought about it that way too of like oh
00:15:41.880if you you're paying like four dollars to see me i don't know that's a lot of that feels like a lot
00:15:49.080of pressure yeah pressure the very vibe that starts out every good relationship every good
00:15:55.460romantic pairing absolutely and so in the wake of people sort of not feeling the vibes on these apps
00:16:01.700the companies themselves are trying to pivot like tinder used to be considered the hookup app like
00:16:07.280the app that was just for people who wanted a booty call, right? But since Gen Z statistically
00:16:13.640is doing the casual hookup thing a lot less, Tinder is sort of pivoting to service folks who
00:16:19.880say they are looking for love and letting people pick and describe the kind of relationships or
00:16:24.880interactions that they're looking for on the app. So they're trying to pivot away from being solely
00:16:29.560like a hookup app. I found this really funny. Tinder has also become more kind of politically
00:16:35.240and socially aware, trying to appeal to that Gen Z market that they're really going for.
00:16:40.880They know that Gen Z really cares about social and political causes. And Melissa Hobley,
00:16:45.940the chief marketing officer at Tinder, says the LGBTQIA plus community is the fastest growing
00:16:51.120demo on the app. And during Pride Month, Tinder helped connect eligible users with information
00:16:56.040about a study that hopes to combat the FDA's blood ban against gay donors. Tinder also launched
00:17:01.500an election center for app users to access voter registration tools and locate their polling
00:17:05.860stations and allowed users to include a pro-choice interest on their profile. So all of that is meant
00:17:12.440to really appeal to like younger folks who they're trying to get to use these apps with more
00:17:17.180regularity. Yeah, that makes sense. I remember when I, because also I, when, I don't know,
00:17:25.140I got back on dating apps like a couple months ago probably um and I remember seeing that on
00:17:32.880tinder I do have a tinder somewhere I don't think I've used it since I downloaded it um
00:17:37.020but I remember seeing there were like things you could like that you were interested in pro
00:17:41.400choice was one of them and I was like that's sort of a weird like interest to put but I guess like
00:17:46.360okay like I don't know um I know hinge also does the like you can put your although it only gives
00:17:52.160you like liberal and like conservative which i think is interesting nothing else yeah it's a
00:17:59.120radical progressive liberal and conservative that's it and i i honestly think what is happening
00:18:07.280with these dating apps is like what always seems to happen with social platforms online right like
00:18:12.740part of it is that i think that hinge was this big standout mainstream dating app for a while
00:18:17.740that made a big song and dance about how they genuinely were interested in and invested in
00:18:22.580people meeting their matches. Like their slogan was, oh, this is an app that is meant to be
00:18:26.320deleted because we want you to find your person and then delete the app. However, like most
00:18:31.280platforms, dating platforms, they want your data. They are interested in making money from your
00:18:36.000data. And once they have gotten all they can from the data of the like maximum amount of users who
00:18:41.100are going to sign up, then they are pivoting to wanting your money too. So they're not designed
00:18:45.360to be deleted, they are designed to make money off of people who use them. That's why these apps
00:18:51.260exist. And so if that means paywalling anybody that you might potentially be interested in,
00:18:57.340they are going to do that. I read recently that Tinder has launched this super luxe premium
00:19:02.260package for $500 a month, where they were like, oh, we'll have super special algorithmic matching,
00:19:09.040and even humans will help match people. Listen, if I'm paying $500 a month for a dating site,
00:19:14.840the person I meet there better also be like a valet and a personal chef and all the things
00:19:19.980but I just think that they're just trying to like throw stuff at the wall to see what sticks to set
00:19:25.660themselves apart because people like I don't think they're offering people an experience it always
00:19:29.800feels good yeah absolutely I mean I think the other I mean the other thing too I don't know if
00:19:35.740anybody who lives in New York remembers the big advertisements that were all over the Union Square
00:19:42.260subway station for um i'm blanking on what it was called but it was some dating app that was
00:19:47.100supposed to be like people that were like elite and like had nice jobs the league what had a four
00:19:53.020year the league that's what it was yeah oh my god like i was i remember seeing that i was like
00:19:58.300what like i was like what like i don't know that because that kind of i feel like reminds me of
00:20:03.500this or it's like it's there's so many like hyper specific ones that i'm always like is there really
00:20:08.900like enough people for this to work who like wanted to I don't know I had a friend that signed
00:20:12.960up for the league though and it sounded like a very interesting experience um yeah no that's
00:20:19.860that's weird I yeah at that point like five hundred dollars like just go back to finding
00:20:27.080a matchmaker or something like the old I don't know go old school exactly I mean I again I'm I'm
00:20:33.120I didn't really get to experience the heyday of the apps, but everybody that I've ever had a
00:20:39.120meaningful relationship with has been through, I've met through the original OG Hinge, which
00:20:45.180is just like having pushy friends who like to set people up, who won't take no for an answer.
00:20:51.360Oh my God. And I guess like, I don't know. I don't think anybody should be spending $500 a
00:20:57.440month on a dating app. Absolutely not. That money could be better spent for sure. But I just really
00:21:02.420feel for people trying to meet people romantically these days like it feels like what these apps are
00:21:07.720offering you like there was a time where it felt like they were offering an endless supply of
00:21:11.800potential matches it was going to be really fun but it seems like now it's like hey do you want
00:21:15.880this dud or do you want to give us ten dollars a month or whatever right and like i don't know
00:21:20.000dating should be fun and it should be pleasurable and i hope that people who are looking to be
00:21:26.720romantically involved or partnered or and having any kind of whatever interaction they're seeking
00:21:31.640I hope that they are finding ways to do that
00:21:33.580that feel fulfilling and fun and gratifying
00:23:23.640It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:23:31.580Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:23:40.740Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:25:24.700But Richard Spencer now is making, like, after being deplatformed from most other social media platforms, he is making at least $9,000 a year and potentially many times that from his Substack newsletter.
00:25:38.380Because Substack the company takes 10% of a cut of any money earned on the platform from subscription fees, Substack is essentially profiting from white supremacists who are also breaking their terms of service that explicitly bans attempts to publish content or fun initiatives that incite violence based on protected classes.
00:25:57.760So in the letter that these prominent writers on Substack published, they said, from our perspective as Substack publishers, it is unfathomable that someone with a swastika avatar who writes about, quote, the Jewish question, who promotes the Great Replacement Theory, could be given the tools to succeed on your platform.
00:26:15.400And yet you've been unable to adequately explain your position, the letters reads.
00:26:20.680Substack has always kind of had this public positioning where they were going to treat
00:26:24.920content moderation with a really light touch.
00:26:29.840However, as the letter accurately points out, that is not true.
00:26:33.780They do choose to moderate some content, including spam sites and newsletters written by sex
00:33:37.580Like that burden should not be on us as the user.
00:33:41.200Like that should not be on the user end.
00:33:43.280And speaking of hate speech on these platforms,
00:33:46.200So one of my New Year's resolutions was to stop using Twitter so much.
00:33:51.400TBD on how it is going, so far not well.
00:33:54.600But that will probably mean spending more time on alternatives like Threads.
00:33:59.460When we first checked in on Threads when it launched, it felt like very brand safe to
00:34:04.240me and just like didn't feel like a cool platform.
00:34:06.200I haven't spent a lot of time there yet, so like maybe that has changed.
00:34:09.040But one thing that has changed on Threads is that people are reporting the platform
00:34:13.680is flooded with more transphobic pro-life anti-porn and islamophobic posts so hearing this
00:34:21.060i logged in for the first time in ages and it didn't take long for me to see this this post
00:34:25.500from a user that i did not follow and certainly like don't follow any accounts that would have
00:34:30.120like recommended this to me it was a tweet that just said it's okay to be white it's okay to be
00:34:35.800white like i saw that a bunch did you see that oh my god yeah i did so just a really weird post
00:34:42.280right yeah no this is i've been having the same experience of like i the only time because i also
00:34:48.140like i feel like i have the same sort of thing with threads where like i made it when i made
00:34:51.680a threads account when it came out it's connected to my instagram and everything but i am not the
00:34:56.080only times i've opened it is when i get in the instagram feed i'll get like baited into clicking
00:35:00.780like hate clicking on stuff because yeah i'll get like all the there's that thing now where it shows
00:35:05.780you like recommended threads and they're always like the most like inflammatory like there's been
00:35:10.980a lot of islamophobic stuff or like very racist stuff that i've seen them in like that can't be
00:35:15.640real and then i'll click on it to like see the whole thing and whatever it's very like rage
00:35:20.460baby kind of stuff but yeah no that's i the only times i've opened thrides have been to
00:35:25.420see those see those tweets in full and be like is this really something joey oh my god i will
00:35:32.320this will be the rest of the episode but when i told what i said up top that one of my plans for
00:35:38.960the new year was to spend less time getting bent out of shape about content like this it is it was
00:35:45.640inspired in part by that that i know exactly what you're talking about on instagram where you're
00:35:50.040like who is saying what now then you click in and if you're me then you spend your whole day being
00:35:55.720like well this can't possibly like i need to research this like what's going on here before
00:35:59.440you know it you're knee deep in some weird ass profile being like like what is this what is this0.75
00:36:04.520ridiculousness that i'm looking at on winter break when we were off i spent an entire half a day i
00:36:10.360lost a whole half a day to that process and i was like they got me it's it's total engagement
00:36:17.000rage bait they want you to click maybe they want you to click by accident and yeah i just it just
00:36:21.760it doesn't feel good like it's like a crappy it feels crappy to have that experience online and
00:36:28.820it feels like more and more like that's what platforms have to offer you is engagement farming
00:36:35.460and rage baiting and then like exploiting your accidental click into something with shocking
00:36:41.420inflammatory content. It is infuriating. But I will say that Facebook meta, they are aware of
00:36:50.040this problem. So in a statement to Mashable, Facebook acknowledged that some users are being
00:36:54.840shown this type of repetitive, low-quality content, saying, we want people to have a
00:36:59.000positive experience on threads, and we're continually making improvements to what people
00:37:02.780see on the app. In addition to removing content that violates our community guidelines, we're
00:37:06.920aware that some people are seeing this repetitive, low-quality content they may not be interested
00:37:10.340in. We're taking steps to address it. So I've read a few responses on this from Adam
00:37:15.420Mosseri, who some listeners might remember is one of my personal enemies. But all of
00:37:21.580his comments about it are like so general they're kind of like oh we're doing our best to get it off
00:37:25.300the platform yada yada yada but it is clear that you need to have very clear rules very clear
00:37:32.720enforcement of those rules and a way to find it when those pieces of content are breaking the
00:37:40.120rules when users are doing it in a repetitive way like it is not easy to run a text-based social
00:37:45.280media platform i'll be the first person to admit it like it is a pay grade far above me however
00:37:51.140it just yeah they've got to get it together because nobody wants to have social platforms
00:37:56.940where it just feels scammy or baity and I just think that most people have had their fill of
00:38:03.980experiences that feel that way online right now yeah no absolutely because like especially looking
00:38:09.680at like yeah the threads that would pop up on my feed that would get recommended to me there were
00:38:13.220always things that I was like if you're taking my data and you're like understanding the type
00:38:19.520of person that I am and things I'm interested in and what my political beliefs are like this is very
00:38:23.720clearly the opposite of that like is the point of these just to get me to like click on it because
00:38:28.840I'm yeah like rage bait or like confused bait me into clicking on something I look which you know
00:38:36.580as a marketing strategy to get people to use your app works uh that being said it's not very ethical
00:38:43.260yeah I definitely like I every time like that happens I'll take a second and like scroll start
00:38:49.080scrolling through threads and be like when it's never I don't know it is like the same where I'm
00:38:52.820like I still feel like it's like the social media platform itself hasn't really like there's no real
00:38:58.660reason for me to go on it otherwise so it's weird it's a weird situation yeah I've come to see
00:39:06.800myself as someone who has gotten more susceptible to the kind of rage confusion engagement bait that
00:39:16.780you just described i know like i know it when i see it and i almost feel like the more learned i
00:39:24.320am about that kind of content somehow the more it gets me on twitter like if you are a black person
00:39:31.020a young black person who was on twitter you probably are familiar with a certain kind of
00:39:35.300post that you know is just like i can't i can't describe it but you know it when you see it where
00:39:41.320it'll be like there's there was a video recently of a of three black women knocking on a door at
00:39:48.240like knocking on a door of an apartment and the caption on twitter was like this girl was out
00:39:53.380until 5 a.m and her man changed the locks on her what do you all think about this and everybody is
00:40:00.100like oh like why is it bad to go out at 5 a.m and then people are being like yeah like she deserves
00:40:04.980it and something about those kinds of posts where it's oh it's always something like very inflammatory
00:40:10.540It might not even be true. It might be like a skit that people are doing. That's a whole other episode about how people are making skits, putting them online as if they have been filmed, and then raking in that sweet, sweet engagement when people react to it.
00:40:25.360I could I mean we should do a whole episode on it because it's a it's a common thing but for
00:40:29.940whatever reason I am I am susceptible to that like I am not above that I find myself like scrolling
00:40:34.780the comments and I'm like why am I getting angry about this probably fake scenario that has
00:40:40.980nothing to do with me like there's enough stuff in the world for me to be reacting to in my own
00:40:44.880life like why am I exposing myself and getting myself bent out of shape about things that are
00:40:49.460being presented to me specifically to react to I don't know it just I'm going off on a tangent here
00:40:54.640But it's a problem and it doesn't feel good.
00:50:57.680oh my god and i just like this whole idea is just so silly right like this idea that because
00:51:05.000you have dei initiatives side note like i feel like i have been in a position of defending
00:51:12.840dei the last few weeks because of what's going on but like dei initiatives are basically toothless
00:51:18.580they're basically like meaningless they're basically like they they don't really they
00:51:22.880have not really accomplished a lot i was listening to the podcast if books could kill they don't do
00:51:27.600much i was listening to the podcast if books could kill and one of the points that they made which is
00:51:32.320a really good one which is that if you were a racist in 2024 and you really wanted your spaces
00:51:39.000to be all mostly white men and have like white straight cis men in power you would you should
00:51:45.380like the ei initiatives because they have been so ineffective at actually making things more
00:51:51.580diverse and inclusive that you should be like wow this is going great like i'm gonna keep endorsing0.88
00:51:55.520yeah right but however this idea that like dei initiatives mean that you have armies of black
00:52:03.520folks and brown folks and other represented identities working in these places it's just a
00:52:09.220fiction but that's what they're so they're basically creating a fiction and then turning0.57
00:52:13.080that fiction into a boogeyman and then being like oh i'm scared i watched this fox news report about
00:52:18.840the alaska airlines flight where the door came off did you see that i did terrifying but in
00:52:25.320the report on fox news they were like oh well diversity in pilots is to blame for this like0.97
00:52:32.460it's dei that's that's what the problem is here and it's like damn y'all will really blame us for0.67
00:52:37.360anything now we're now we're causing plane problems like you will blame us for anything0.73
00:52:42.040hi okay future bridget here popping in solo without joey because we just got an update on
00:52:50.040a story that I was obsessed with even before I ever started doing these News Roundup episodes,
00:52:55.280so I had to talk about it with y'all. I don't think we ever actually talked about this story
00:52:59.220on the newscast, but it's one of the more bizarre, not to mention gruesome tech stories that I have
00:53:04.540heard in a long, long time. Today, the online auction site eBay has been ordered by a Massachusetts0.63
00:53:10.480court to pay $3 million in damages after their employees and contractors waged what I can only
00:53:17.300describe as all-out psychological warfare on a Boston couple. That $3 million is the statutory
00:53:23.880maximum fine for eBay's charges. And in my book, the couple they harassed deserves every penny of
00:53:29.560it. So back in 2019, eBay senior executives were annoyed that this couple, the Steiners,0.94
00:53:35.520were running a newsletter called Ecommerce Bites about eBay that was meant to give people who sell
00:53:40.360stuff on eBay and auction sites information about the site, happenings with it, news,
00:53:44.800all of that kind of stuff. According to Yahoo, this harassment campaign began after Ina Steiner0.99
00:53:50.520wrote a story in her newsletter about a lawsuit brought by eBay that accused Amazon of poaching0.96
00:53:55.960its sellers according to court records. About a half an hour after Ina Steiner published this
00:54:00.860article, eBay's then-CEO, Devin Wenning, sent another top executive a message saying, quote,
00:54:07.840if you are ever going to take her down, now is the time. That executive then sent his message to
00:54:13.840James Baugh, who was eBay's senior director of safety and security. And he called Ina Steiner
00:54:19.280a, quote, biased troll who needs to get burned down. After that, I guess Baugh was like, I am0.97
00:54:26.100on it because he became the ringleader of this harassment and intimidation campaign against the0.98
00:54:31.280Steiners. Side note, also don't put stuff like this in an email. Like if you're ever going to
00:54:36.180do something like this, hopefully you're never waging a crazy campaign of harassment and
00:54:41.580intimidation against anybody. But if you're ever doing something where you're like, oh, it might be
00:54:45.440bad if someone were to read these emails, discuss it in person. Your next email should be like,
00:54:50.200let's talk about it in person. So eBay's head of security basically had other staffers send
00:54:56.220disturbing packages to this couple's home, including a bloody pig mask, an actual fetal pig,
00:55:02.280a box of live spiders, a box of live cockroaches, pornography, and a funeral wreath, along with a
00:55:09.540book called How to Grieve the Death of a Spouse. So like pretty obviously meant to be a threat or
00:55:16.020a way to intimidate them. Horrifying. The staffers also traveled to their home. They apparently had
00:55:22.140a plan when they found that their home was locked. They had a plan and tools to break into their home
00:55:27.280to install a GPS tracking device on their car. They posted the couple's home address on Craigslist,
00:55:33.440inviting randos to come to their house for sex parties.
00:55:37.480These were senior-level executives at eBay.
00:55:40.840Jim Baugh, eBay's senior director of safety and security,
00:55:43.660was the ringleader, and he was sentenced to 57 months in prison
00:55:46.580back in September of 2022 for his role in all of this.
00:55:50.080Six other employees also faced felony convictions for their involvement in this,
00:55:53.900which include charges of stalking, witness tampering, and obstruction of justice.
00:55:58.600Acting U.S. attorney from Massachusetts, Joseph S. Levy, said
00:56:02.040eBay engaged in absolutely horrific criminal conduct and that the company's employees and
00:56:07.240contractors put victims through pure hell in a petrifying campaign aimed at silencing their
00:56:13.140reporting and protecting the eBay brand. Imagine doing serious federal jail time because you wanted
00:56:19.640to protect the brand eBay. So get this, eBay's then CEO, Devin Wenning, the one who was sending
00:56:26.540those emails about this couple who was harassed, was not criminally charged with anything related
00:56:31.080to this, but he did step down from eBay in 2019 after it all came to light. But James Baugh,
00:56:36.500the ringleader, his lawyers have said that he faced relentless pressure from Wenning and other
00:56:41.800top executives to do something about this couple. He alleged that he was then pushed out by the
00:56:46.700company when, quote, an army of outside lawyers descended to conduct an internal investigation
00:56:51.820aimed at saving the company and its top executives from prosecution. It really does sound like this
00:56:57.820started at the very tippy top, like the former CEO Wenning was on those emails. So it does sound
00:57:04.120like this started at the very, very tippy top and that this behavior was not just tolerated,
00:57:09.600but expected, but invited, but like all but asked to happen. And guess what? That former
00:57:17.640eBay executive Wenning, even though he has not been charged with a crime, it is not like he is
00:57:23.280laying low after overseeing a company where this kind of criminal behavior happened. Today, he is
00:57:28.520the CEO of Symbolically AI, a company that he co-founded that is supposed to use AI to help
00:57:33.780writers and publishers. On his website, he lists all the great accomplishments that he oversaw when
00:57:40.020he was at eBay, but conveniently does not list overseeing a criminal harassment campaign.
00:57:47.680Okay, so we got to talk about this new SAG agreement. This summer, actors and screenwriters
00:57:52.620were in a big standoff with studios in part over AI in what folks like me called hot labor summer.
00:57:59.020Basically, the question was, could studios use the likeness of actors without their consent to
00:58:04.160make AI versions of them that they could use forever and ever and ever without paying up?
00:58:09.540Well, this week, SAG-AFTRA, the union representing more than 150,000 film and TV performers,
00:58:15.280announced a deal that sets terms for the use of AI voices in video games. So the deal is with
00:58:20.860Replica Studios, an AI voice technology company, and it establishes protections around the licensing
00:58:25.840of digitally replicated voices. Duncan Crabtree Ireland, who is SAG-AFTRA's national executive
00:58:31.280director, told NBC News, I think what's really important about this agreement is the fact that
00:58:35.920it provides protection for all performers at all levels in the industry. And the fact is,
00:58:39.980a lot of times performers who may not be famous names really need that protection even more
00:58:44.360because their bargaining leverage to negotiate those kinds of things individually is not as
00:58:48.340great. So one of the big pieces of how performers are thinking about the use of AI is whether or not
00:58:54.200their voices and likenesses can be used after they die, which is like pretty creepy.
00:58:59.700Crabtree Ireland said that posthumous deals are possible with the consent of whoever the estate
00:59:04.140has designated to act on the deceased performer's behalf. So I was sort of like set to be like,
00:59:10.140oh, that's great. That's good. Like, I'm so happy they have a deal in place. However,
00:59:13.860However, after doing a little more research, I came to find that a lot of performers are either A, angry about this deal, or B, skeptical of this deal and still have more questions.
00:59:24.720Like, I went to the social media posts that were announcing this agreement, and several people were expressing frustration with this agreement and the announcement,
00:59:31.660saying that they did not feel like the union had done a good enough job of representing their interests as it pertains to AI, or even just, like, educating them on what they need to know about this agreement.
00:59:40.780And I don't know, I think it's one of those stories where we'll definitely keep an eye on it and give updates where there are updates. But yeah, it sounds like maybe the folks who are being represented here and the folks who are doing the negotiating, there might be a little bit of daylight in between what both of those parties see as their best interest and whether or not they're being represented.
01:00:03.720did definitely yeah um I have a lot of friends who are actors in my life so I this is something
01:00:11.100I've been like hearing about from them um people are not happy with this agreement um and like I
01:00:17.320totally understand it and it's interesting because I so like I as an iHeart employee like I'm part of
01:00:23.560the Writers Guild um and we weren't on strike it was just the film and television division we were
01:00:28.720in a different division but um it was interesting because I feel like with the Writers Strike there
01:00:33.040was a lot more like transparency about what was happening obviously it's not perfect but like you
01:00:38.360know i felt like at least like even as somebody who is not in the division that was on strike like
01:00:42.500i had kind of an idea what was happening and like what the deal was and like what the like kind of
01:00:47.540negotiation how that was going and i feel like there has there was a lot of like muddiness about
01:00:53.720around the sag uh the negotiations and and yeah again like just from from my friends that are
01:01:01.880dealing with this because it's their careers they don't seem to be happy and i also remember like
01:01:07.400looking at the sag instagram posts like look at opening the comments take a bunch of people that
01:01:11.300are like i like especially even when like the the contract was announced there were a bunch of
01:01:16.840videos that were going around from like really prominent actors being like oh yes on this like
01:01:21.140and it was like why do you have to advertise to people to vote yes like it should be a thing where
01:01:26.000It's just like, yeah, look, we have a good deal.
01:03:45.360It goes on to say, our hosts have been convinced to grant the Dudesy AI access to all of their personal emails, text messages, social media accounts, purchases, and browsing histories so that it can tailor the show to their specific personalities and entertain you at the highest level possible.
01:04:01.140I don't, like, I don't understand what I'm reading.0.68
01:04:03.880This whole thing, like, this sounds like it's a George Carlin.
01:04:13.540I am confused. So I'll go on. So Dootsie starts off the comedy special with this. I want to let you know very clearly that what you're about to hear is not George Carlin. And it's my impersonation of George Carlin that I developed in the same way that a human impressionist would. I listened to all of George Carlin's material and did my best to imitate his voice, cadence and attitude as well as subject matter, I think that would have interested him today.
01:04:40.120So think of it like Andy Kaufman impersonating Elvis or like Will Ferrell impersonating George W. Bush.
01:04:46.080So I see what Doodsy is doing there, but like he's trying to make us be like, oh, well, this is a more common thing for comedians than you think.
01:04:53.900But he's naming comedians who impersonate non-comedians.
01:04:58.260Like it's not like Will Ferrell impersonating George W. Bush.
01:05:01.940It's more like Dave Chappelle impersonating Richard Pryor.
01:05:04.740Like it's like a comedian impersonating another comedian.
01:05:06.860This just sounds like the most annoying dude at the party.
01:05:16.200And I'm not even sure if that dude is a dude or AI.
01:05:19.480Like, again, I'm not sure, like, what they're trying to tell me here.
01:05:22.900But I can confirm to you, per variety, that it is an AI-generated impression of Carlin.
01:05:29.980I don't know in what way this traditionally counts as an impersonation, but there you have it.
01:05:33.540So this special has Carlin commenting on things in tech that he never got to see because he died in 2008, like Elon Musk buying Twitter and Jeff Bezos' rocket launch into space in 2022.
01:05:46.520You know what they did forget to do, though, is get any kind of permission from George Carlin's very much still alive family member.
01:05:55.020His daughter, Kelly Carlin, posted on Twitter saying,
01:05:58.920My dad spent a lifetime perfecting his craft from his very human life, brain, and imagination.
01:06:04.300No machine will ever replace his genius.
01:06:06.440These AI-generated products are clever attempts at trying to recreate a mind that will never exist again.
01:06:11.880Let the artist's work speak for itself.
01:06:14.080Humans are so afraid of the void that we can't let what has fallen into it stay there.
01:06:19.740How about we give some actual living human comedians a listen to?
01:06:22.700But if you want to listen to the genuine George Carlin, he has 14 specials that you can find anywhere.
01:06:28.500So I hate that she has to make that statement, but I really appreciated it.
01:06:33.320And yeah, like you were saying, of all the comedians that I feel like would not have rocked with this, I feel like George Carlin especially would not have rocked with this.
01:06:46.740And I love George Carlin. There is a bit like I actually just finished edits on an op ed that opens with a George Carlin bit. I reference it on the show like all the time. You'll probably are sick of me saying it, but I have gotten more wisdom and use out of this one George Carlin bit than I have gotten from anything I've ever encountered in a philosophy book or a college course.
01:07:08.260and that is his shit versus stuff bit you ever notice how your stuff is stuff and everybody0.96
01:07:15.480else's stuff is shit this is not me trying to do an impersonation of him I literally quote it all0.98
01:07:19.980the time but that one there I feel like there is more insight into the human condition and how0.98
01:07:24.940we all live in a society together in that bit than anything else I've ever read and it bummed
01:07:29.720me out like the idea of comedians or podcasters trying to recreate that using AI it's like yeah
01:07:39.720let the work stand for itself not everything needs to be a AI generated copy of something
01:07:46.620that was good that copy probably wouldn't even be good and his daughter's not into it so don't do
01:07:51.860this I just really hate this thanks so much for being here Joey where can folks keep up with all
01:07:57.060your awesome work you can find me on social media at pot not pratt that's p-a-t-t-n-o-t-p-r-a-t-t
01:08:05.280um and if you want to listen to my other work you can check out afterlives the lili and flanco
01:08:11.800story um we just finished up the kind of main arc we're posting some sort of bonus content
01:08:19.720longer interviews at the moment but you should definitely check that out uh super important
01:08:24.880story but yeah thanks so much for being here thanks so much for all your great work and thanks
01:08:30.000to all of you for listening you can find me on social media you can hit me up on email at
01:08:33.860hello at tangody.com and you can check out more ad free content at our patreon at tangody.com