00:06:00.940Now, in 2023, we have really seen that shift to where these are fleshed-out, monetized online businesses complete with advertising apparatuses.
00:06:13.280Graphica found that the volume of referral link spam for these kinds of services has increased by more than 2,000% on social media platforms like Reddit and Twitter since the beginning of 2023.
00:06:24.180And a set of 52 Telegram groups used to access non-consensual image sites like these contain at least 1 million users as of September of 2023.
00:06:33.900So they have really exploded in popularity, yet I think that we're only now, like only recently, come to have any kind of conversation about what that means.
00:06:43.780Not just for, you know, the women who are overwhelmingly targeted by these kinds of apps, but also what it means for our digital landscape more broadly.
00:06:53.200Okay, I'm not going to lie. None of this is familiar to me. As many social media things as I'm involved in, didn't know this was a thing. Didn't know.
00:07:03.480It's pretty despicable. It first got on my radar. It first seemed to be rolled out to like more mainstream platforms with celebrities. So it would be like, oh, you can get a nude of any celebrity. And now it's like not just celebrities. It's like anybody. You can generate a non-consensual nude of anybody.
00:07:23.700And so one of the ways that this is becoming more and more ubiquitous is just seeing the advertisements for it on social media.
00:07:32.760After some journalists at Bloomberg were looking into the popularity of these kinds of apps, they contacted both TikTok and Facebook to ask them about, you know, hey, it seems like these really gross apps are being allowed to advertise on your platforms.
00:07:47.540And both Facebook and TikTok, I will say, you know, to their credit, when Bloomberg reached out to them, they both did some work to block search terms related to nudify apps.
00:07:58.760But one social media platform, notably, did not do that.
00:09:35.580especially on public platforms like that
00:09:38.660in general but like in talking about doing news and such like it seems like it should be illegal
00:09:44.620it seems like this could be one of those things especially like if you think about revenge porn
00:09:48.500and all that being illegal in so many places like is that not a thing is that can you not take it
00:09:54.820to court or at least try to stop these images from happening so that is a great question when
00:09:59.860i first saw these i was like this has got to be illegal and it turns out that right now depending
00:10:05.420on where you live, it is probably not illegal to do this. It depends on your jurisdiction,
00:10:11.940but there is currently no federal law criminalizing using AI to generate non-consensual
00:10:18.140deepfake images. Representative Yvette Clark out of New York has actually proposed legislation
00:10:23.240that would criminalize making, you know, non-consensual deepfakes. But as of right now,
00:10:29.620kind of unbelievably, there is not any legislation federally that prevents somebody from doing that.0.78
00:10:35.420And, yeah, I just think that, like, as this kind of technology becomes more ubiquitous in our culture, I think it adds to this idea that just by showing up on the Internet, women are fair game for anybody who wants to sexualize us.0.65
00:10:51.840And that I think it's getting to a point where the idea is like, well, if you didn't want someone to use your images in that way, why don't you post them to Instagram, right?
00:11:02.240And I think that we really got to have a real serious think and a serious conversation about if that is going to be a social media climate that we want.
00:11:13.100And I think that that kind of thinking is the kind of thinking that we need to leave behind in 2023, right?
00:11:18.020Like, women should be able to show up online without non-consensual sexualization just being the cost of showing up.
00:11:25.420And so let's leave that behind in 2024.
00:13:39.920using medical tests and with partial nudity,
00:13:42.380and found that the AI used will tag photos of women
00:13:45.580in everyday situations as sexually suggestive.
00:13:48.620So I'm talking about images of like women in their underwear,0.54
00:13:52.820fully covered, or women working out at the gym fully covered, right? Like images that we would0.82
00:13:58.220recognize as not racy, but because they include women, the tools that are being used to make1.00
00:14:04.240decisions about how content is moderated will be like, no, that's racy, can't have that on social1.00
00:14:09.400media. And so as a result of this, social media companies that leverage these algorithms have
00:14:15.640suppressed honestly countless images of featuring women's bodies. We know that this hurts women-led
00:14:21.980businesses. I was just reading about how a shapewear company essentially can't advertise0.98
00:14:27.320on social media because images of women's bodies fully covered in shapewear will just be suppressed
00:14:35.080by these algorithms. And they essentially cannot advertise their product on social media, which is
00:14:39.500like where you advertise products in 2023. This also, like, not only does it hurt female-led1.00
00:14:45.020businesses, it also has medical impacts. They found that this disparity is also true for medical1.00
00:14:51.280images. AI was shown images from the U.S. National Cancer Institute demonstrating how to do a
00:14:56.760clinical breast exam. Google's AI gave this photo the highest score for raciness. Microsoft's AI
00:15:03.840was 82% confident that these images of women doing breast exams was explicit sexually in nature.
00:15:11.840And Amazon classified it as representing explicit nudity. This is also true for pregnant bellies.0.53
00:15:17.640Like if you are heavily pregnant and showing a pregnant belly on social media platforms, AI is much more likely to deem that image to be racy and then suppress that in their content moderation tools.
00:15:30.640And so you really get a sense of the way that these platforms are creating a disproportionate cost for being a woman who shows up online.
00:15:40.060Like it prevents women from being able to express themselves.
00:15:42.640It prevents women from being able to get medical information about our bodies.
00:16:12.880And it's just like literally young girls.
00:16:14.800And it's telling to what is going on in our society, the problems of objectifying and sexualizing women.
00:16:23.860But also, this is a big thing that we talk about with you, Bridget, when it matters who's making these things, who's doing this stuff.
00:16:32.120And AI is a pretty new space, but I've already seen a lot of conversations about that, about the importance of who is working on it.
00:16:41.220So that's part of what is going on here, right?
00:16:44.800Totally. So The Guardian spoke to Margaret Mitchell of the AI company Hugging Face,
00:16:49.200who said that she believes that the photos used to train these algorithms were probably just being labeled by straight men
00:16:55.840who probably associate men working out with fitness, but maybe consider an image of a woman working out as being, like, racy or sexual or explicit,
00:17:06.180even though it's, like, the same theme, the same content.
00:17:09.060And so it's possible that these ratings seem gender biased in the U.S. and in Europe because the labelers might be from a place that might have more conservative cultures, right?
00:17:18.020And so, yeah, it really matters who is building technology, who's in the room when the technology gets built, who is training it, who is rolling it out, who is thinking about it, who's writing about it, who's talking about it.
00:17:28.740If these people are mostly men, then, like, of course women and other marginalized people are not showing up in an equitable way.
00:17:38.900With all the conversations that we have around things like inclusion and diversity and equity in tech, I'm not, like, harping on those just because it's, like, nice to do or it's, like, the right thing to do, which it is.
00:17:49.960It is because eventually the technology that gets built is worse, is less inclusive, is more dangerous.
00:17:57.220Like, it includes less people, and that ends up hurting all of us.
00:18:10.940So I'm so glad that was a great transition, which is that, you know, it's like one of the reasons why I started my own podcast about this is that we unfortunately have a tech culture that can treat women like perpetual outsiders, right?
00:18:28.760Whether by accident or with intention.
00:18:31.740And that is something that we got to leave in 2023.
00:18:34.500Really, we could have left it like in like many, many, many years past.
00:18:39.060But this is the time that we should be leaving it in the past because exactly what you said, it is so critical. These tools are going to be shaping our world and how we understand our world. So we got to make sure that people who are publicly talking about it and are included in that conversation are done so in a way that does not treat them like perpetual outsiders.
00:18:58.220And so women who are working for that AI company that I mentioned before, Hugging Face, which you can sort of think of as like a competitor to OpenAI, the company that makes ChatGPT, which is run by that guy Sam Altman, Hugging Face has a lot of women who work there.
00:19:13.620And these women do a ton of like public speaking about tech and AI in the media, which is great.
00:19:19.860And I also think, again, it's, like, important because it can help to change the face of, like, who we think of as somebody who gets to speak or gets to have an opinion when it comes to technology, and that's great.
00:19:30.000However, the women at Hugging Face also noticed that when they were doing public speaking about AI with the press,
00:19:36.280they sometimes would get, like, sexist or otherwise kind of messed up questions during interviews
00:19:42.260that just, like, really highlighted that they were not necessarily being treated like people who belonged in the space.
00:19:51.200Margaret Mitchell, she is Hugging Face's chief ethics scientist, framed it as a research question.
00:19:56.300She asked, what are patterns in how journalists talk to and about women in AI?
00:20:01.320She found that compared to male peers, there is a disproportionate focus from the press on their ages, their motherhood, their physical appearance or behaviors, their failures, and what AI gossip they could provide rather than their, like, technical work.
00:20:18.280And these are people who are incredibly accomplished.
00:20:21.500They're, like, doing very important work that they've gone to school for, been trained for.
00:20:25.320in an article, if you get to interview them and you ask about their age or you ask if they have
00:20:30.640kids or you ask, you know, about the way they look, it's so limiting because it's like you
00:20:36.360have somebody who has dedicated their life to this very important technology and this is what
00:20:40.540you ask them. Like it's such a miss on the part of the journalists. It's like, I thought you by
00:20:47.940now at this point in AI, there would be more things to talk about. There's so many questions
00:20:52.400that we should be asking again things like how are how are sexist issues being handled in ai how
00:20:58.120are you protecting women in ai and not about the individual person be like so you got a kid
00:21:04.800you gotta be on the computer while you have a kid how are you gonna do that like well that
00:21:09.540this seems so like far-fetched like why is this is this a skit are you are we still doing this
00:21:15.320and what's frustrating is like they would never ask a man up if you were talking to like a powerful
00:21:21.200man, you would never be like, oh, well, who watches
00:21:23.120your kids while you're working? Or like,
00:22:47.520Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:22:52.060I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:22:56.620I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:23:04.060They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:23:08.020But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:23:11.460They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:23:14.600Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:23:23.540If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:23:29.480This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:23:41.960I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:23:49.060I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:23:52.500From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:23:58.600It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:24:06.060Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:24:15.680Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:28:17.600and I think people do this without even really meaning to is that the tech industry, women and
00:28:25.860queer folks and trans folks and black folks and folks with disabilities and all different kinds
00:28:31.640of people who are traditionally marginalized in our society have been at the beginning of technology
00:28:36.440and have been since the very start. We have this idea that like, oh, tech is this like white male
00:28:41.960cis boys club and anybody else is trying to break their way in. And that's, I can understand why0.95
00:28:46.840people feel that way. But we have been there from the very beginning. And if you don't always hear
00:28:52.000our stories or our voices, it's not because we're not there. It's because specific choices have been
00:28:56.900made to keep to like sideline us and to turn down our voices. And so really starting from a place
00:29:02.820that like we do belong in these conversations, we do belong in tech, we do belong in the sector,
00:29:07.680we're not outsiders, I think is really, really important. And it also just really matters,
00:29:14.320You know, if the people who are building technology and talking about technology and thinking about technology are only one type of person, the tech that gets built is going to be a whole lot worse.
00:29:25.780And so all of us benefit when more voices are included and feel included and feel empowered to join the conversation.
00:29:32.880You would think that would be an obvious and also that it would be it would save money.
00:29:36.420It would save money in all the revamping and redoing of everything that you knew.
00:29:42.160Well, I would expect you knew, but that could go wrong when you don't have the right people or all the people at least represented in this conversation, especially if you're wanting these people to use your technology.
00:29:53.620you're so right and like what's interesting is I once read this book called mothers of invention
00:30:02.820all about how things like misogyny and bias around women stifle innovation and something
00:30:10.080that's really struck me from that book is how much money gets left on the table because of
00:30:15.500things like gender bias and misogyny it's like you would think in a capitalistic society that
00:30:20.040for-profit companies would want money above anything you might be surprised because they
00:30:24.900are perfectly willing to lose money if it means further entrenching gender bias and misogyny yeah
00:30:33.100which is so nonsensical right i guess it's power over money even though money can be considered
00:30:38.660power yeah yeah we were doing i was trying to do a wrap-up episode like this about video games and
00:30:45.820board games and i ran across kind of a stunning upsetting amount of um how often people in power
00:30:56.600who are dudes were like it's just women don't make good stuff um and they would literally be like
00:31:03.840people don't buy those things those party games why yes they do yeah look at the demographics of
00:31:12.340Who is actually playing video games?1.00
00:31:15.640And so, like, I think not making video games and stuff that, like, women want when a big chunk of your customer base just is women, it's a fact, that is on you.0.86
00:31:27.820That is, like, you don't know how to do it or unwilling to do it.0.84
00:31:30.240It's, like, anything that you could say is just an excuse to not do it.
00:31:35.320Like, you look at Animal Crossing and the fact they made bank, especially during COVID and quarantine.
00:32:07.840Oh, this also reminds me of, it's kind of upsetting, but it reminds me of when Sally Ride was, you know, getting ready to go to space and they would have these press conferences with her and all these men.
00:32:21.980And the men, they're asking like all these like questions related to the job.
00:32:26.060And her, they'd be like, how are you going to put your makeup on in space?
00:33:58.220for what is it like eight dollars for 30 you're like bro yeah 30 to a box so it's like how much
00:34:04.420like i have so many questions i have so many questions there's so many questions there's so
00:34:08.160many questions and to be fair like in everything like how did you think this was going to work
00:34:12.980like who invented this this is not this is this doesn't work like that what are you doing god
00:34:18.260sometimes like oh this is such a non sequitur sometimes when i think about gender dynamics
00:34:25.760like I remember reading this tweet from a guy who was like people think Taylor Swift is so pretty but0.98
00:34:32.480here she is without makeup and it's like did you think that she was born with cat eyes and like
00:34:37.280bright red lips and you thought all of us thought that you clearly thought that but you thought all0.88
00:34:43.080of us thought that like and then you're and like you're supposed to be getting one over on us women0.80
00:34:47.360like the whole thing is just laughable yeah it's like such a great example of who we consider the
00:34:55.440norm in society whose experience we consider the norm we base it on because i i was thinking about
00:35:02.620that recently too about this whole idea that i feel like has faded away largely but not always
00:35:10.220but like women who would wake up early and put on makeup so their partner would not see them
00:35:15.820without makeup so it's like it's like a lot of us feel that we have to do this thing because
00:35:25.260then we'll get this complaint from this random jackass on social media but then it's also like
00:35:32.020dude what do you think it's strange it's like a strange dynamic that is happening where you feel0.69
00:35:39.520the pressure to do it but then also shouldn't they shouldn't people realize how much work it is
00:35:46.040right yeah and it kind of goes into another question that i'm kind of concerned about
00:35:50.560because we've had like i've been noticing more and more on tiktok they just have automatic filters
00:35:54.820and a lot of people talk about the fact that they use different filters especially because they
00:35:58.400don't want to wear makeup and all that and this is feels makes them feel better which all all in
00:36:02.580whatever you do you but then this level of expectation uh that especially men especially
00:36:09.300I'm gonna say cis heterosexual men uh think that this is what you should look like and if you don't
00:36:14.920look like that in real life holy catfished me and you've lied to me like in this new level of
00:36:20.540standard a beauty standard that might been like okay this is good for us because it makes us kind
00:36:25.800of feel better but at the same time what is it leading to that's such an interesting question
00:36:30.760And I guess I just think that, like, a lot of men, like, cis heterosexual men, I think are really willing to live in a fantasy world.
00:36:42.740Like, they're really, like, it's like if you think that, you know, some of those TikTok filters, they give you, like, glitter on your eyes.
00:36:49.880If you thought that, like, somebody came out of the womb with, like, glitter on their eyes, like, sometimes, like, it's honestly, it's one of the reasons why I don't really remove my body hair.
00:36:58.500because when you add up how much time it takes to do it,
00:37:01.280it's actually like not, it's a lot of work.
00:37:03.580And it's like, do I want to do extra work
00:37:06.640and pay whatever extra money it takes to buy the razor
00:37:09.040and this and that to feed into a fantasy1.00
00:37:11.840that adult women don't have body hair?1.00
00:37:57.340And tech, I mean, so many of the things that we've talked about on here do play into that, whether it's filters or social media, these kind of beauty standards that are getting perpetuated, just the vitriol women can receive just by, here's my face, being on social media.
00:38:20.500So it is really unfortunate because we can't ignore that that does happen.
00:38:28.400And I know I've told this story before, but I have a lovely collage of all of the horrible things people have said to me online.
00:38:35.840But it's also like, why can't we just, these are women who are doing amazing things in AI.
00:38:44.580We don't have to talk about how they look.
00:39:46.720That if I'm the girl in the cartoon, I've got this in my bag slung over my shoulder that I'm taking it with me to the next year.
00:39:54.980And that is all of us, each and every one of us, being more involved in conversations around tech.
00:40:01.100Like, I do think I have seen a shift this year around how regular people like you and me and people listening, you know, are thinking about technology and talking about technology.
00:40:12.160I think that we are done with this idea that tech is only decided by a bunch of like super smart genius white guys who don't have to be accountable to us at all because we're like not smart enough to understand the brilliance that they do.
00:40:26.760I think that in 2023, we are coming to the realization that these people have been using that dynamic as a way to essentially like get rich off of us.
00:40:35.180And I think that we're going to start asking some questions about that dynamic and pushing back.
00:40:39.480Like, should these companies and tech leaders be able to just get rich off of us without us asking any questions or having any say?
00:40:46.920I think I'm starting to see people be like, no, actually, I am smart enough to understand that I'm being taken advantage of and exploited.
00:42:48.460And thanks to you for listening. Stuff Whenever Told
00:42:50.500You is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
00:42:52.320from iHeartRadio, you can check out the iHeartRadio app,
00:42:54.200Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
00:43:00.440I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive
00:43:12.660what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files. Every
00:43:18.660week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,
00:43:24.060and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:43:29.260Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:43:37.640If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:43:43.400Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:43:51.720Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture
00:43:55.180with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.