00:01:13.700I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.
00:01:17.400Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable,
00:01:21.100abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:01:24.740These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:01:28.800Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:40.460There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
00:01:48.580I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
00:01:51.320welcome to another episode of there are no girls on the internet where we explore the intersection
00:01:57.700of social media technology and identity this is another iteration of our weekly news roundup where
00:02:03.020we talk through the stories that you might have seen on the internet so you don't have to i am
00:02:07.380so thrilled to welcome back to the show friend of the show i think maybe our our longest running
00:02:13.320guest like you know how steve martin was the most he when he hosted snl the most i think you're the
00:02:19.620steve martin of there are no girls on the internet oh my god what a claim to fame it's an honor and
00:02:24.160a privilege we are so thrilled to be joined by abby richards uh prolific tiktok user misinformation
00:02:30.860expert um media matters analyst how do you describe yourself these days you're a woman who wears many
00:02:36.840hats yeah i think i describe myself as a woman who wears many hats uh i'm still going with like
00:02:43.240misinformation researcher and content creator as like blanket, you know, just covers all the bases.
00:02:51.280Yeah, there's a lot more to Abby. She has multitudes. Abby, the last time that we saw0.55
00:02:57.780each other, I think was in Ireland, question mark? Yeah, it was in Dublin. Dublin, that's right. We
00:03:04.060were there with Mozilla. And one of the folks that you and I were lucky enough to spend some
00:03:07.700time with and really get to know when we were in Ireland was Chris Smalls. We've talked about
00:03:11.820Chris Smalls on the show before. He is one of my personal heroes. You might know him best as one of
00:03:16.920the main leaders in the fight to unionize Amazon workers. He was the co-founder and the former
00:03:21.680president of the Amazon Labor Union, which was the very first ever unionized Amazon worker
00:03:26.440coalition recognized by the National Labor Relations Board. When we first got on, we were
00:03:31.320talking about the fact that Chris was part of this Freedom Flotilla Coalition, which is a
00:03:36.520grassroots international collective that has really been trying to give aid to folks in Gaza.
00:03:40.620They were intercepted by the IDF. They boarded their their vessel. And, you know, I'm sure that nobody was having a great time once that happened. But all the reporting I saw was that Chris was being uniquely targeted. And I have to imagine that has something to do with him being, I think, the only black man as part of that coalition.
00:03:59.240Yeah, he was the only black activist on board. And he was reportedly like kicked in the head. And like had like they were like beating at his like knees and legs. It was like seven uniformed people in uniforms that were assaulting him.0.92
00:04:19.600And reportedly then when his lawyers went to go like meet with him, they had like six like special police guards on him.
00:04:30.140And then his conditions like when he was being held were terrible, I think, as with other activists.
00:04:34.660But it did seem like he was specifically targeted.
00:04:38.400And it was really, really concerning for us who are like his friends and want to make sure that he's safe.
00:04:44.200Yeah. And it sounds like he might have actually been released quite recently. Do I have that right?
00:04:47.980Yeah. So he's in as far as I'm aware at the time of recording, I think he's like in Jordan, like boarding a plane or maybe even like on the plane right now and is expected to land tomorrow morning, which like, thank God, I'm really glad that he's he's made it out.
00:05:02.500it sounds like conditions were terrible. They were saying that they were like infested with
00:05:06.180bedbugs and overheated, really unclean, overpacked. And also that the activists like
00:05:14.420were on like day five of their like a hunger strike. So it just the conditions were terrible
00:05:20.740and it sounded absolutely miserable. But he posted a video, I think, at an airport like
00:05:26.060ready to leave and seemed in good spirits, which is nice. And it's a good reminder of
00:05:30.180to something that we get into sometimes, which is that these issues, at least from my perspective,
00:05:34.240are very much all connected. The fact that Chris Smalls was the co-founder of the first Amazon
00:05:41.000labor union, I don't think is unrelated to what's happening with Palestine. I think these are all
00:05:46.440tech issues. They're all justice issues. They're all race issues. The fact that a Black activist
00:05:51.180would be uniquely targeted by IDF when coming to provide aid and coming to advocate for the cause,
00:05:56.980I think all of these issues are connected in ways that sometimes can be difficult to see. But I think that what happened with Chris really does demonstrate that. And so I think a lot of folks might think like, oh, well, what does this issue have to do with technology? Why would you be talking about this in a tech podcast?
00:06:12.580I see it as very, as very linked. The fact that someone would see what's happening with Palestine and have have the orientation of like, well, the same the same kind of forces of injustice that are at play with big tech companies like Amazon are certainly at play here.
00:06:29.820Yeah, I mean, I think that is connected on so many different angles. There's like the, you know, technological colonialism of it all. But there's also like the social media activism of it, of like how he even got there was from a place of like knowing how to utilize social media to get eyes on Gaza.
00:06:49.640Because it's not like the Freedom Flotilla was bringing, like, tremendous amounts of aid in. I think, like, they were very aware, as with the first round of it, too, that, like, they would likely get boarded and taken into custody and the aid wasn't going to get through.
00:07:06.240But it's like a it's activism in that performance of like letting themselves get arrested. Right. A lot of activism revolves around that and using social media to get that many eyes on it. Right. The types of activists that were on that on that boat. That is such a technological issue.
00:07:24.200Of course it is. And those things are so connected and intersecting. And I think that they're really interesting and that we have to, like, account for that in, you know, 21st century resistance efforts.
00:07:36.100Absolutely. Well, Chris, if you are listening, our hearts are with you. We're thinking about you. We love you.
00:07:44.100Okay, so I want to talk about something that I know you probably have lots of thoughts about, and that is TikTok adding footnotes. Did you see this new kind of a program they're rolling out that'll let a select group of TikTokers add context and background information to some videos on the app?
00:08:01.580I saw, yeah, I saw, I saw the article like saying that they were planning to enroll it. I would like to be in that first group, please let me in.
00:08:09.300Yes, you would be, I mean, like you, I can't think of somebody who uses the platform in a better way to call out some of the misinformation that is there. Like I, there's nobody really doing it the way that you're doing it. And what I love about your work is how you're able to, like, you use the platform, you're a prolific user of the platform, but you also critique the way that misinformation is able to spread on that platform.
00:08:31.720And so it's not like you're someone who is only rah, rah, this platform that I've built up can do no wrong.
00:08:38.700You just come at it from such a place of transparency.
00:08:41.420Oh, my God. Thank you. I mean, like, I am I am a TikTok enjoyer.
00:08:45.560There are things I really enjoy about that app, but also there are things that, like, infuriate me.
00:08:49.420And I think that we can hold space for, you know, two things to exist at the same time where, like, I have found great, great joy there.
00:08:56.240And also I have been like lied to prolifically, prolifically.
00:09:01.540So, yeah, I think that the community notes function that they're going to try and add, I'm actually pretty in favor of it, as long as it's not also replacing other fact checking, which it sounds like it isn't.
00:09:14.100So it's similar to the way that community notes functions on X.
00:09:17.480But notably, TikTok says they are not going to abandon in-house fact checking X and Meta when they rolled out community notes.
00:09:25.420That was all they were going to be doing. And it really, it really did seem like a way to offload that burden from paid staff at these companies and just put the burden on users. Right. And so I think that you're exactly right. The fact that TikTok is saying, hey, this is not going to be replacing our in-house fact checkers. We're going to continue to have that, too, I think is really a key difference. And why, to me, I'm not like opposed to this.
00:09:49.460Yeah, no, I'm not opposed. And I also think that it's kind of community oriented, which I like. I like that there can be discussions around the accuracy of something. Like I'm very interested in that. Again, it doesn't replace like journalists and fact checkers. So as long as like it's just like an added thing of like, I think this is AI. I can recognize what this bunny disappeared on the trampoline.
00:10:15.680the bunny so the bunny it got me i sent that to somebody and then i had to send a follow-up when
00:10:22.240i saw the piece in 404 media and oh that got a lot of people that got millions of people
00:10:26.880so the piece so the piece in 404 media breaking down the this viral tiktok that purported to be
00:10:34.780backyard ring camera security footage of a bunch of bunnies adorably jumping on a trampoline they
00:10:40.360were so cute it was so cute and the reason why it got me was because ring camera footage is always
00:10:46.780blurry so you're not i think that you're not trained to think to be thinking is this real or
00:10:51.440is this not you're just expecting to see some low-res video and i think that's easier to like
00:10:56.540slip ai into that yeah uh i think the blurry footage also with there's been a few of those
00:11:02.980videos of like animals jumping on a trampoline at night um and it's always at night because if it
00:11:09.240were during the day I think it would be a lot more obvious but that like nighttime ring like ring
00:11:13.960footage uh it's just easier for it to look a little shitty yes and when it comes to
00:11:20.840mis and disinformation and the way that it spreads in video form it usually adheres to some sort of
00:11:27.060worldview that you hold and I have the worldview that when night falls animals are doing all kinds
00:11:32.180of cute things and wouldn't it be great if we could see them and so I was like oh I want to
00:11:36.960believe, I want to believe in a world that bunnies are jumping on a trampoline at night
00:11:41.440in a coordinated way when we're all asleep. That's the ideology that I want to have.
00:11:50.140My core belief is that when I go to sleep, bunnies get together to jump on trampolines.
00:11:55.300Bunny nighttime mischief. Yeah. Yeah. So this is something interesting about community notes. So
00:12:00.400I like the fact that TikTok is not replacing their in-house fact checking with community
00:12:05.560notes. But when platforms like X are using community notes only as fact-checking, the
00:12:11.900studies on whether or not that and that alone is an effective way of handling incorrect information
00:12:18.220is a little bit mixed. There's a really good analysis in tech policy press written by Nadia
00:12:24.080Jude, a PhD researcher within the Digital Media Research Center at the Queensland University of
00:12:28.420Technology, and Dr. Adriana Matrimos-Fernandez, associate professor at the University College
00:12:33.800at Dublin, they found that studies on the effectiveness of community notes are missed.
00:12:38.440For example, there is a debate about whether or not the tool reduces or heightens engagement
00:13:00.680These challenges call into question whether or not prioritizing consensus and moderation systems designed to address mis- and disinformation is a desirable or worthy aim.
00:13:08.980And I found that to be so interesting because, you know, on a platform like Ets, where that really is the only thing that anybody is doing to prevent the spread of false information, you really see how it might not be something that's genuinely effective at keeping incorrect information off the platform.
00:13:27.160On TikTok, I like the idea of it being something where context is added or, you know, background information or sort of like, let me put this in context for you, as opposed to being like, yes, it is true or no, it is not true.
00:13:39.720I almost wonder if that false binary of true versus not true.
00:13:44.640So it's like it's not working on platforms like X when that's the only thing they have.
00:13:49.480I think there's so many other contexts on TikTok where context would be so helpful.
00:13:53.780i mean the amount of times that like i'm fully lost trying to find the original video that
00:13:59.380someone is like mocking and has like done a a play on or like i'm completely lost and don't
00:14:05.640have context on like what this like discourse i've stumbled into is or or what account posted
00:14:12.120about it first and like what their username is like it's it's so confusing um and like just given
00:14:17.900the nature of tiktok you get dropped into like these conversations on your for you page and
00:14:23.140you're like I don't know what's happening um so I think like yeah focusing on context and adding
00:14:28.380that is I think that that can actually be like a beautiful thing for community I'm interested to
00:14:34.360see how it plays out um I certainly don't think it can replace fact-checking at all ever and I
00:14:41.900don't think it can replace true like content moderation um and I certainly worry about
00:14:47.340companies who just like don't want to deal with content moderation so they just like
00:14:51.640kind of give that burden to users and they're like you figure out what's real exactly yeah none of
00:14:58.600this would be a replacement for expert fact checkers who know what they're doing who are
00:15:04.580trained to address things um and particularly like culturally informed content moderators because
00:15:10.240so much of the content moderation like it's just if people aren't culturally informed it can be
00:15:16.180very difficult to know what people they're talking about and you're you're so right about tiktok it's
00:15:20.460a platform that it's really difficult to follow drama on TikTok because you're like I'm out of
00:15:26.520the loop like who said what what started it I can never keep up and then like somebody will just
00:15:32.820post a username that's like scrambled and then you get like linked to like that person's old
00:15:37.980videos and you're going through and it's just it's a lot of it's a lot of investigative work
00:15:43.040to try and understand drama you've gotten like dropped into the middle of due to your algorithm
00:15:48.160them. And there's like a lot of the times where I look at something and I like have to make a
00:15:52.200decision of just like, I have to let this go. I don't. Like, I can't invest any more of my time
00:15:59.660to try to figure out who started this random dispute. Yeah, I understand that the Wordle
00:16:04.420community is having discourse and that they're fighting. But like, I need to not put any energy
00:16:11.260into understanding why. Oh, I actually would be interested to know what the Wordle community
00:17:13.080streaming radio and podcasting let us show you at iheartadvertising.com that's iheartadvertising.com
00:17:20.220when i was 14 years old i was kidnapped and held captive for nine months i survived and i've spent
00:17:28.040my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them i'm elizabeth smart
00:17:34.060and these are the survivor files i just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying
00:17:41.720shut up don't say anything every week i'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable
00:17:48.360i knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me i started feeling that there was0.90
00:17:56.200someone at the end of my bed and i just started screaming they are abducted stalked controlled
00:18:03.680and nearly silenced but these aren't stories about what's taken from them they're stories
00:18:09.300about what it takes to make it out alive listen to the survivor files with elizabeth smart
00:18:15.040on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts if your bookshelf and your
00:18:22.040for you page are equally important to your personality welcome home this is prose society
00:18:28.460the weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for thought daughters pop culture
00:18:33.560obsessives and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same
00:18:37.600level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,
00:18:42.820the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm gonna have to look up
00:18:47.100this story. I'm obsessed, so obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book
00:18:51.840talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can
00:18:56.980hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:19:03.240Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:19:12.840Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:21:18.160And it really reminds me of, like, our country's history with things like lynchings, right? Like, big public displays, big spectacles being made out of the suffering of others. And I just think, like, in the scheme of things, it might not be that big of a deal. But the way that the administration uses their official comms channels to signal to the most depraved members of their base just really, I mean, it cannot be overstated.
00:21:44.280yeah no that meme was like truly sickening like i felt that in my stomach i mean same with like
00:21:50.500the they had like the deportation asmr a while back too um and it very much is an instance of
00:21:58.080like the cruelty is the point right um like they're trying to be as cruel as possible because
00:22:02.760they know that it creates media attention they know it works people up um so it's also just about
00:22:09.000I think triggering the left to some extent doing things that they know will make the left upset
00:22:15.620and I think it's also partially about desensitization so like the more your like
00:22:22.300eye sockets are assaulted with abhorrent content like that you just get used to it you get
00:22:28.120desensitized to it and I think it encourages people to like emotionally shut down. It's
00:22:34.220absolutely bonkers propaganda, but it does seem to be working for them and getting the
00:22:39.900attention that they crave. Yeah, I think you're so right about the purpose of this kind of content
00:22:48.380because I do think it's about, you could, I mean, this is why I have these channels all blocked,
00:22:53.780because you can only see this stuff so much. You can only engage with this so much until you're
00:22:59.280either it just either you're you become desensitized to it as you said or you you simply
00:23:06.020can't go about your day i mean um elaine welteroth had this great tiktok where she was like the
00:23:11.740experience of scrolling social media right now is horrible tragedy horrible despicable comms1.00
00:23:17.880coming out of an official white house channel and then somebody's makeup tutorial and i don't i
00:23:22.160firmly believe that this is not an environment that we were as humans meant to be in this is
00:23:27.340it's like oh no we should not have this should not be normal no our brains were not meant to be
00:23:32.700assaulted with this much like horrendous content and then simultaneously sold the as many things
00:23:42.400to consume as we possibly can and that's what going on social media like really feels like
00:23:46.940right now is just like horrible thing horrible thing buy this horrible thing horrible thing
00:23:52.180purchased this and like it's really bleak and i think that there are people who like see that
00:23:58.500and recognize that like that's the emotional experience that like a lot of us are having
00:24:02.700and are happy to add on to it um and try to like emotionally wear us out and wear us down
00:24:10.960yeah and i think the fact that they're picking these things that are
00:24:16.940symbols of joy might might be too strong but the the studio ghibli cartoons like those cartoons
00:24:25.180are all about celebrating nature and love and innocence like they're very kind of pure and
00:24:31.220you know they're they're they're for me they are a symbol of joy so then seeing that perverted and
00:24:36.960seeing that taken to illustrate cruelty i think is a is a definite like intentional choice can we
00:24:44.940talk about how they did the jet two holiday meme wrong though like that bothers me because the whole
00:24:51.280point of the jet two holidays that it's supposed to be something going terribly wrong and yeah and
00:24:56.360they are like oh we love this look at us deporting so well and it's almost like they almost kind of
00:25:02.900got themselves with the fact that they don't know how the meme works and they just used a trending
00:25:07.120audio um but like the whole point of that meme is that like fun upbeat audio with like something
00:25:14.320going just like demonstrably like wrong like yes they they've kind of misunderstood them like what
00:25:20.820makes it a meme what makes it funny and you know in a roundabout way they're kind of saying these
00:25:27.040deportations are something that have gone wrong but i know that's not what they want to say no
00:25:32.560that's not what they want they what they want is just like cruelty and supremacy and to like
00:25:38.240trigger i think they want to like trigger the left and then on the right they want to trigger feelings
00:25:43.160of superiority and, like, give people that kind of, like, emotional hit of other people's cruelty.
00:25:50.680Yeah. The person who sings the song is Jess Glein. The song is called Hold My Hand,
00:25:57.220and she actually posted a statement on Instagram basically saying that she was horrified to see
00:26:02.300the White House using her song in this way, even though she was happy to see it take off on TikTok
00:29:58.580If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:30:04.520This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,
00:30:10.940pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:30:16.980I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:30:24.100I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed.
00:30:27.680From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:30:33.620It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:30:41.100Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:30:50.700Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:33:04.480And I guess the problem has not been solved because Taylor Gorenz reported that Substack sent a push notification promoting a Nazi publication on the platform to an unidentified number of their users.
00:33:16.780I don't use the term Nazi publication lightly.
00:33:20.700The blog literally included a swastika icon.
00:33:24.420So that's like pretty cut and dry.0.92
00:33:26.980I feel pretty confident saying this is a Nazi publication.
00:33:29.460They were definitely, I think they self-identified as a national socialist publication.
00:33:34.480This is not something where I'm just throwing the word around.
00:33:37.960Like, they would probably agree that that's how they would self-identify.
00:33:54.360This was a serious error, and we apologized for the distress it caused.
00:33:57.480We have taken the relevant system offline, diagnosed the issue, and are making changes to ensure it does not happen again.
00:34:03.040So I feel like for as bad as it is to send a push notification that includes a swastika telling people to check out this Nazi blog, that statement to me is like, throw that in the garbage. It doesn't mean anything.
00:34:16.640Ars Technica spoke to Joshua Fisher Birch, a terrorism analyst at the nonprofit NGO, the Counter Extremism Project, who's been monitoring Substack and their role in helping far right movement spread propaganda online.
00:34:29.740He makes a very good point that what should be happening now is more transparency and then outlining exactly what happened and exactly what steps Substack is taking to prevent it from happening again.0.97
00:34:42.320Just saying, oopsie, Vicenti with swastika is really not good enough when you consider how big of a fuck up that is.0.94
00:34:51.180Yeah, no, that's like a really big fuck up and being like, oh, like that system has been diagnosed. What do you mean?0.99
00:34:58.860yes what do you mean can you tell me more about what that system was like how did that even get
00:35:04.880scooped up there like i like when we say transparency we don't mean like a two-sentence
00:35:09.900statement from your company we say like we mean like like true accountability like what went wrong
00:35:15.740here and like how can you explain it to us so that we understand and can have faith that like
00:35:20.960you're taking actions and like steps to make sure it doesn't go wrong again
00:35:24.260but like that's i don't feel like we're getting real transparency here no absolutely not and
00:35:30.440fisher birch he made a really good point that all of these like far-right nazi extremist types
00:35:37.140have gotten the impression that their content is far less likely to be removed removed from
00:35:42.420substack and they're not wrong and importantly they see substack as quote a legitimizing tool
00:35:48.120for sharing content specifically because the substack brand which is widely used by independent
00:35:53.420journalists and top influencers and cherished content creators can help them convey the image
00:35:58.260of a thought leader. And so I thought that was such an important point, that it's not just that
00:36:03.020Substack is hosting this kind of content, which that is a problem. It's also that the people who
00:36:08.440make this kind of content rightly understand that me being on Substack next to all of these
00:36:14.860important influencers and content creators legitimizes whatever it is I have to say.
00:36:18.900So it's not just that it's being taken down. It's that I'm hobnobbing with all these other important voices.
00:36:24.460So it seems like my voice is important, too.
00:36:27.220Yeah. It like just it lends them legitimacy.
00:36:30.660It's yeah. And hasn't Substack like talked about how they don't want to take that content down because they don't want to like overly send like censor that content.
00:36:41.200And they believe that like it'll just go into the shadows.
00:36:43.740Like, am I right? That's, like, also part of their, like, that's just, like, we, I would so much rather that content be in the shadows than on Substack next to, you know, legitimate journalists, like, actual high quality Substacks.
00:36:58.820Like, it's okay for bad things to be in the shadows where we can't see them. Actually, that's where bad things, like, should be and should stay. I'm okay with that.
00:37:07.020And I think that's that's that's such a good point. And, you know, it's one of those things where I do think that so many prominent journalists who are doing their own thing and like have their own, you know, media outlets are on Substack.
00:37:21.460And it goes back to that old adage about a Nazi bar, right?
00:37:26.120Like, if you're hanging out in a Nazi bar, at what point are people going to start thinking that you're the Nazi?
00:37:29.760I think that if Substack doesn't do something, I think people who are prominent on the platform who don't want to be associated with this kind of thing and don't want this thing to be out of the shadows, they don't want it to be, like, next to their piece or something, I think they might be having to make some changes.
00:37:48.220Angry Black Lady, Amani Gandhi, who is a journalist and a lawyer who I follow online, she wrote on Blue Sky that basically it sounds like Substack is unsustainable and that people either have to move now or move in shame later.
00:38:02.000Those are really the only two options at this point.0.84
00:38:03.960And I thought that was such a good point of like, at a certain point, people might have to decide, I don't want to be on a platform like this.
00:38:10.800And won't it be embarrassing to have to do that in shame after you've been like, oh, they're going to fix the problem.
00:38:17.880But also at the same time, it puts like creators of that content in such a shitty position where like they need that like hosting service and their audience uses it.
00:38:32.220And it's not like the audience is that good at following people off platform on different platforms.
00:38:37.960And so like if they're financially dependent on Substack and they've like gone independent and they like rely on it, then like it's a big ask to be like, can you not use this platform that you rely on and that you can't really transfer your audience to anywhere else because you don't like other content that's being hosted here?
00:39:04.300They're really doing a disservice to the people that use their platform, that they have to be thinking about this at all.
00:39:10.300And again, a lot of people who are on Substack, like the state of journalism and media, everyone I know has either been laid off or wakes up being worried about being laid off.
00:39:19.500And the people who are laid off often use platforms like Substack to do their own thing while they figure out what's next.
00:39:24.840And I think Substack is putting a lot of people who are already oftentimes operating from a place of precarity, not always, but often, I think that they are putting this on them in a way that I don't think is acceptable.
00:39:39.640no i mean that's what happens on every platform where like they refuse to engage in content
00:39:45.180moderation because like arguably i do the same thing on tiktok where like i'm forced to be on
00:39:49.880tiktok like to to reach my audience who i can't transfer over anywhere else um and it's also on
00:39:57.080a platform that is like you know consumed with like misinformation and like a lot of you know
00:40:02.220like i just published about all like the racist ai generated content and i'm forced to like live
00:40:06.940there. And it's it's not fair to me. I don't think it's fair. I mean, I think that the platform in
00:40:14.620general would be a lot better if it focused instead on like creators who made like original
00:40:18.220high quality content. But that's not where they want to invest all of their operations.
00:40:25.260You know, the last time that you and I spoke on the podcast, we were talking about
00:40:29.180a potential TikTok ban in the United States. If TikTok was banned, what like, what would that
00:40:36.160look like for your voice and your platform? I mean, on one hand, I would lose like, you know,
00:40:43.040half a million followers, which is, is like brutal. But on the other hand, my TikTok reach
00:40:49.160right now is terrible. Absolutely horrendous. Like I barely can reach like a tenth of those
00:40:59.880followers. Like I just, I never have guaranteed access to the people who did choose to opt into
00:41:04.880my content um and like routinely have them in the comments being like i haven't seen you on my
00:41:10.440for you page in years or like whatever um and i feel like on tiktok especially right now my
00:41:17.480content is just being flooded out with ads instead i mean the place is just becoming like a glorified
00:41:23.600amazon uh i got 11 sponsored posts in a row like last month between like tiktok shop ads and like
00:41:32.200actual ads i got 11 in a row i screen recorded it 11 in a row it was crazy and like it's barely
00:41:40.580usable i mean i i loved tiktok for a time i stopped using it precisely because of the just
00:41:47.520the deluge of ads and i i don't mind as that much in my content however there was there is something
00:52:41.900When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.
00:52:47.140I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:52:54.140I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.
00:52:57.840I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.
00:53:06.040Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:53:10.320I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:53:14.920I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:53:22.540They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:53:26.440But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:53:29.880They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:53:33.520Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:53:41.300If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:53:48.180This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:54:00.360I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:54:07.480I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:54:10.640From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:54:17.400It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:54:24.540Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:54:34.100Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:54:51.880LinkedIn is quietly stripping their explicit protections for trans and non-white users from its English language hate speech rules.
00:55:00.740The changes, which were flagged by the nonprofit Open Terms Archive, and then independently confirmed by the advocate, involved edits to LinkedIn's professional community policies, specifically the hateful and derogatory content and harassment and abusive content sections.
00:55:15.940In both, references to protections for trans people and people of color were either weakened or removed entirely.
00:55:21.400This is something that is I have a bee in my bonnet about it because it was work that I worked on when I was at Ultraviolet, like getting platforms like I will say TikTok was one of the first platforms to be like, oh, of course we will add dead naming and misgendering to our hateful conduct policies.
00:55:35.960Great. But when Elon Musk bought Twitter, one of his first acts was removing Twitter's deadnaming and misgendering policy from their hate speech policy.
00:55:47.160And I remember thinking, oh, well, I think that platforms are going to be watching to see if he is able to do this without much fanfare and without much pushback.
00:55:56.580People did push back against it. It's not like nobody said anything.
00:55:59.380But I think the fact that he was able to just like unilaterally make that choice and, you know, people kept using the platform at that point, I think signaled to a lot of other platforms that it was OK to roll back this kind of these kinds of policies.
00:56:11.760So when Trump got in office in January, like Meta did the same thing.
00:56:16.620YouTube did the same thing. And I do think, you know, platforms, they see how other CEOs behave.
00:56:23.860They see what other things that other platforms can get away with.
00:56:26.860And I think it informs what they think they can get away with.
00:56:29.300So I do really think that, in part, we have Elon Musk to sort of blame for LinkedIn, of all places, feeling as if it's fine for them to stop or to roll back these policies to add protections for trans folks and people of color.
00:56:43.680I think in general, like, there's groupthink when it comes to stuff like, you know, content moderation policies on platforms.
00:56:53.540And they are kind of all looking at each other because, like, they don't want to moderate.
00:56:57.680moderate it's it's like time intensive it's money intensive it requires they hire people to do that
00:57:04.620work like the less moderation that they have to do like the more cost effective it is for them so
00:57:10.140i think that they're always going to look for where they can trim that and just like not have
00:57:14.480to worry about it um it's it's i i don't understand it i don't understand why you would just like
00:57:21.860not care if your platform becomes like a toxic wasteland. I really can't wrap my head around it.
00:57:28.740Especially a platform like LinkedIn. Yeah. So it's for, it's really meant to be for professionals,
00:57:34.880job seekers, that kind of thing. I think not giving trans folks and folks of color
00:57:39.860an equal playing field in a digital arena that it's all about job seeking is just not, it feels
00:57:47.120especially cruel, especially as more and more people are getting laid off. It seems like
00:57:53.720nobody's hiring right now. It just feels like an extra added burden that cis people and non-Black1.00
00:58:02.260people are not asked to deal with. If you can't show up to a platform that it's all about talking0.95
00:58:07.020about professional accomplishments and professional thought leadership and finding a job, if you can't
00:58:13.000show up there without being dead named and misgendered I just think it really it's it's a
00:58:18.340it's a clear way where these platforms are not equitable and people are not having equitable
00:58:23.260experiences on them yeah and like we've known that and we've known that they also aren't very
00:58:28.300good at enforcing those policies but like watching them get taken away and like take away like even
00:58:34.080like the pretense that they were going to try is just like really sad and I think speaks to like
00:58:39.240the current political moment and the apathy that these companies feel towards like a need to serve
00:58:47.460historically like marginalized groups like they don't like they like that was very much I think
00:58:52.960a performance for when it was popular yeah and now that they feel like it's not popular they're
00:58:58.360not going to do that performance like it was never coming from a place of of actual like
00:59:03.020well-meaning desire to help oh I know it wasn't because they had to be cajoled into it so
00:59:08.660This can't be real if it's if you if you it only happens because you were cajoled.
00:59:13.120I just imagine being like, I'm going to build a platform that's for professionals to discuss their professional work.
00:59:21.860And I don't care like if people dead name each other.
00:59:25.540Like, I hope there's more dead naming on this platform.
00:59:27.860Yeah. Why? Like, it's it's a professional platform.
00:59:33.380And even the way that they dealt with it is really wild.
00:59:36.140So the advocate reported on this and they got a statement from LinkedIn where a spokesperson initially defended the platform's stance against identity-based abuse, asserting, quote, we regularly update our policies, personal attacks, intimidation, or hate speech towards anyone based on their identity, including misgendering, violates our harassment policy.
00:59:55.060Then, less than an hour later, the company wrote back to the advocate and asked to revise that statement, removing the phrase hate speech and instead mirroring the new policy language, saying personal attacks or intimidation toward anyone based on their identity, including misgendering, violates our harassment policy and is not allowed on their platform.
01:00:14.340So it's like they can't even keep their own whack policy straight internally.
01:00:18.420well also at a certain point like these words become meaningless because like how is that
01:00:22.340different than hate speech and then also you think about like the fact that like you know dozens of
01:00:28.940people were involved in that discussion and there was a whole email thread about like is hate speech
01:00:33.640allowed but like discrimination isn't and like like what are we doing like this it's it's it's
01:00:40.620kind of mind-boggling and like hard to process but like there are so many people involved in like
01:00:47.020having those conversations of like, are we, is hate speech not a word that we're, not a phrase
01:00:53.020that we're going to be using in our policy anymore? And it's just like, what is this?
01:00:58.560What are we doing? Why? Can we have like a group meeting and maybe like revise our goals as a
01:01:05.440species? Because like, what are we, truly, what are we doing? I think this all the time. My last
01:01:11.240thing I want to talk about is an update on a story that we did earlier this week. And that is about
01:01:16.520the tea app certainly you have heard about this right oh i'm i have heard a lot yes i'm very it's
01:01:23.520very interesting so for folks that don't know the tea app was designed for women to spill tea on men
01:01:29.200the creator of this app says it was designed to help women feel more safe while dating men so that
01:01:33.620they could uh share women could share their experiences with specific men i guess the idea
01:01:38.740being that if a man was abusive or you know they had a bad experience with a man they could they
01:01:43.660could safely and anonymously share that. Well, we know it was not anonymous. For a time, that app
01:01:49.840required women to show their, to give copies of their driver's licenses to confirm they were0.97
01:01:53.960women. The app eventually scrapped that requirement, but did require women to send selfies. Last week,
01:01:59.8601,300 driver's license images of those women, along with 72,000 selfies of women, were all
01:02:07.060found to be essentially publicly accessible thanks to the app's atrocious security practices. So the
01:02:13.420app said, oh, as soon as you submit your license or your selfie, we delete it as soon as you're
01:02:17.840confirmed. Obviously, that wasn't the case because images of that stuff was all over 4chan.
01:02:22.680Additionally, private DMs were also left accessible. So folks want the deep dive
01:02:26.800into what happened there. Check out the episode that we put out about it this week.
01:02:30.720But we have a slight update. Ooh, okay. And that is the app, probably unsurprisingly,
01:02:36.380has been hit with two lawsuits. Two lawsuits have been filed in the Northern District of
01:02:41.620California, alleging negligence, breach of implied contract and other claims. So one was filed on
01:02:47.340behalf of Griselda Reyes, who said that she submitted a photo while signing up for the app
01:02:51.240that was included in the breach. She seeks an injunction requiring T to encrypt all data and
01:02:56.460purge private information as well as monetary damages as determined by the court. I actually
01:03:01.920think she has a case like I the app made it clear as day and said we delete your images and they
01:03:08.300didn't like they just lied that's wild it's it's absolutely wild how negligent that is yeah i mean
01:03:14.940it almost wasn't fair to call it a a hack or or like i even breach feels a little bit strong
01:03:21.440because it these things were essentially publicly accessible so you can't like to hack information
01:03:26.860to hack something it has to be behind some sort of security protocol yeah this was not so it's
01:03:30.760like you can't even really call it a hack crazy it was the level to which i mean the analogy that
01:03:36.780that i spoke to a cyber security professional about it the analogy that they gave me was
01:03:41.240imagine if your doctor told you that your private health information that they collected was private
01:03:46.520but actually they stored it in an open crate in the alley behind the clinic i think that that is
01:03:52.100the level of of accessible that this information was oh my god wait isn't that so the t-op it's
01:03:59.040all like for women it's for women to discuss um like men and ranging on you know their interactions
01:04:06.280with men um but wasn't it like found and created by a man yeah the creator businessman and tech
01:04:11.680capitalist sean cook formerly of shutterfly said that he created this app because he
01:04:15.920in their marketing honestly it does just sound like marketing to me in the marketing materials
01:04:20.980for the app he said oh i watched my mother date and get catfished and like get mixed up with men
01:04:26.460who had criminal records so i wanted an app that would keep women safe and that women could like
01:04:30.980have safer dating experiences. That may very well be true. And I'm not denying that there are women
01:04:36.480who maybe use this app to vet a man or to find out information about somebody who genuinely was
01:04:42.980abusive. I'm not saying that that did not happen on this app. I am saying that when you actually
01:04:47.820look at the kind of stuff that was posted on the app, it was also women being like, you know,
01:04:53.580this guy has a bad vibe or like saying things that were not necessarily rooted in trying to
01:04:58.860keep women safe from abuse. And so I think it's interesting that this man who created this app for
01:05:04.440women got to enjoy talking about how they were all about women's safety while doing something
01:05:10.020that put those same women so clearly at risk. Yeah, no, it's it feels kind of poetic. It's also0.88
01:05:19.080kind of what I've started to expect from men, especially when they like perform feminism.0.96
01:05:26.040them like i i have pretty like low expectations from from them when they like make their whole
01:05:32.960persona about like protecting women um i like i just think that i need to see them go above and
01:05:41.000beyond and like actually you know walk that walk um but yeah the fact that it's like it was that
01:05:49.680careless and that that easily hacked not even hacked i guess stumbled upon yeah crazy and the
01:05:59.200women some of the women they so like not only were these women's driver's licenses which had0.99
01:06:03.900their addresses on them posted online also some of these dms that were that became accessible
01:06:10.420were very serious in nature the second lawsuit which was brought on behalf of an anonymous jane0.72
01:06:16.740says that she joined the T app because she wanted to anonymously warn other women in her Northern
01:06:21.240California community about a man who sexually assaulted at least two other women. The app
01:06:25.720promised her that anonymity. It promised her safety. It promised to delete her verification
01:06:29.320data. T broke every one of those promises. And so that lawsuit really demonstrates like
01:06:34.820that genuinely could put her in an unsafe situation. If she is reporting this person
01:06:41.120attacked me, harmed me, having her conversations about that be accessible to anybody who wants to
01:06:47.820see it is putting her deeply at risk. And so, yeah, this app, like I had a feeling there were
01:06:54.220going to be lawsuits. I'm actually surprised it was this quick because this just happened last
01:06:57.660week. But, you know, it really, it really, I think these women have a right to some justice here.1.00
01:07:04.920Yeah, no, 100 percent. I kind of am interested. I'm very interested to see how this unfolds.0.99
01:07:10.640I think the whole conversation around it is fascinating.
01:07:15.240Oh, so the app, you got up to five free searches on the app.
01:07:19.560So how it works is, let's say that I met Joe Blow on the street and I want to see if anybody's talking about him.
01:07:24.060I could search him on the app to see, you know, if he appears in any T posts.
01:07:29.000After those five posts, you then have to buy a paid subscription, which is $15 a month.
01:07:34.980or you could share you could have like five girlfriends sign up and keep using it for free
01:07:40.240okay so it's gonna be paid so they weren't doing giving it away for free and then like selling
01:07:43.920data uh i i mean that i i i i'm i'm not willing to say i'm not able to say that yeah would it
01:07:50.880surprise me i don't know for sure okay that makes sense um i i just think everything about that app
01:07:57.980is completely fascinating to me and like the fact that so many women flock to it as a place of
01:08:04.620safety and then we're portrayed is interesting but also like the discourse that was had there
01:08:08.500and like what it means for privacy and safety today is interesting and then the fact that like
01:08:13.920you know all of a sudden thousands and thousands of women are doxxed is like the fact that we live
01:08:21.440in in that context too where so suddenly you become essentially like a public figure who is
01:08:26.640getting harassed is like I mean it's it's such a like a rich text for 2025 society and technology
01:08:35.000I talked about this in the episode but genuinely when I first heard about this I thought this has
01:08:40.140to be some kind of a setup there's no really this I mean that that was my initial gut feeling was
01:08:46.220it was such a kind of morality play in a kind of way where it just seemed so on the nose that I
01:08:53.460thought this has to be this has there has to be more to this story I'm I don't know that that to0.75
01:08:59.000be true but that was my initial just it just felt too just too much of an on-the-nose gender war
01:09:05.680story to have to have actually happened the way that it seemed to have happened also there's1.00
01:09:10.820something to be said too culturally about the way like women engage in sleuthing as a means of like1.00
01:09:16.980self-defense um and that almost it almost felt like that on steroids of just like let's bring1.00
01:09:26.000sleuthing into like let's like give it a whole structure let's give it a system um when it's1.00
01:09:31.800already something that like so many women do in the name of of like i think really an anxiety1.00
01:09:37.680and trying to protect themselves oh yeah i think that sleuthing and gossip and whisper networks1.00
01:09:44.500I don't want to stigmatize those things. I think those things exist for a reason and they have forever because it's about those are how women keep ourselves safe. I don't think that there's anything wrong with women sharing information with each other. I think the problem is when this app promises to systematize that in a way that is safe and anonymous and so cruelly betrays the women who flock to it thinking that it would be safe and anonymous.1.00
01:10:11.340Yeah. And it's like if a Whisper Network has that much official structure, like at what point is it no longer a Whisper Network?
01:11:34.400If you appear to be underage, then you need to submit your government ID in order to not be age restricted on Spotify.
01:11:42.040And also YouTube announced this week that it was rolling out technology that was going to use AI to, quote, interpret a variety of signals based on the kinds of videos that someone searches for and watches and the longevity of their account to determine if they are under 18.
01:11:58.140So if their AI senses that because of your viewing habits that you might be under 18, you will then have to submit your government ID to bypass automatic age restrictions.
01:12:09.040And so the fact that this is becoming more commonplace really concerns me.
01:12:13.500Yeah, that's going to be a problem for me on YouTube.
01:12:15.100I've been watching so many clips from zombies.
01:12:20.940They're going to be like, why is this child also watching so many video essays?0.99
01:12:25.360Yeah, I mean, I think about my sister-in-law, who, when I look on her YouTube, it's 100% Bluey.0.96
01:12:32.440It's 100% like, because they've got toddlers.0.70
01:12:34.480Yeah, or, you know, she's got great taste.0.94
01:12:38.400Bluey is a fantastic show, and I am going to stay on 10 toes down on Bluey.0.53
01:12:44.120Yeah, we're not, no shame for liking Bluey here.
01:12:47.900But all of this age verification stuff, it's often janky and doesn't work.
01:12:52.160There's been lots of studies about it being kind of hit or miss.
01:12:54.800And I think as we sort of move to a place where more and more the Internet is age restricted and we might have to show our government IDs to get it, you know, I think the T app breach really shows how problematic and concerning that can be because we really don't know that much about these platforms.
01:13:12.620And like any company can say, oh, we're going to delete your driver's license picture as soon as you submit it.
01:13:17.320They don't have to necessarily do that.
01:13:18.800It's also interesting that, like, truly the thing that drives all of this is porn.
01:13:25.580Like, it's really interesting to me because it's like, you know, both of us have been deep in this world of, like, content moderation and people who make anonymous accounts and can get away with posting the most horrendous things and there's no verification.
01:13:38.820Like, you know, part of the reason why you're able to go online and create a hate account and just troll people and make everybody's lives worse is because, like, you're making that count completely unconnected to a government ID, right?
01:13:52.400Like, they, like, there's, there's, that's part of how the internet has always worked and part of what's made our lives in particular very difficult.
01:14:02.700But the thing that is driving this, it's always porn.
01:14:07.600It's always porn and sex and, like, a panic around it rather than, like, actual, like, well-being conversations.
01:14:18.780If we actually wanted to keep young people safe and keep them away from things that are harmful, there are a million things we could be doing other than restricting the Internet so heavily in the name of keeping children safer.
01:14:31.600Like, it's interesting to me when we do and when we don't appear to care about the well-being of children and keeping them safe, I argue that we are a deeply anti-child society, that we don't care about children, we don't care about their safety at all.
01:14:46.600But then, so it's interesting when we're being told we all have to start showing our IDs to listen to music on Spotify to protect the children.
01:14:55.080It just immediate red flag, red flag, red flag, red flag.
01:14:58.840Yeah. Of like, yeah. Or like, you know, the sex toy, like legislation in Texas of like trying to make sure that you if you want to buy a sex toy online, you need to show like a government ID to prove your age.
01:15:12.760It's just like, first of all, which children are buying sex toys online? Find me one.
01:15:20.380um second of all i just i mean maybe this is a hot i just i don't really care about a kid having0.99
01:15:27.600a sex toy if a kid wants to have a sex toy and do whatever like they're they're gonna use0.99
01:15:32.460something to masturbate their children well yeah i mean that's some in so in australia they had0.99
01:15:38.060done this whole study on what on like har respecting the internet and harm against kids0.97
01:15:43.440and one of the things they found was that when you try to keep like sexual content and sexual
01:15:48.880things away from kids, a lot of times those kids are actually using it for educational context.
01:15:55.100They're trying to learn about their bodies and their sexuality and all of that. And so by trying
01:16:00.320to legislate that kind of stuff away from them, you might actually be harming them because you're
01:16:05.420creating an environment where it's harder for them to get that education and they will seek it
01:16:08.500elsewhere. Yeah, which I thought was such an interesting perspective and sort of how the way
01:16:15.080that we restrict things sometimes actually end up introducing new harms yeah because well i mean
01:16:20.620we're doing this and simultaneously not providing sex ed right like part of the reason why i think
01:16:26.440young people might flock to porn is because they're not having those conversations like at
01:16:31.900home or in school they don't understand um like how sex works and like they can't make sense of
01:16:38.740like the feelings that they're experiencing in their body and and they don't have access to that
01:16:42.800information um so of course they're going to like gravitate towards porn and then porn is going to
01:16:47.420like pull you deeper into some sort of internet rabbit hole because it's like an algorithmically
01:16:51.440kind of like send you somewhere um but it seems like the real like if we cared about kids and
01:16:59.600taking care of them and respected them as like coming into their own sexuality before the age
01:17:06.000of 18 which they are like they're going through puberty like we would make sure to have like
01:17:10.980resources for them and like teach them about the things that they're experiencing but instead we're
01:17:15.500so much more interested like we it just makes us uncomfortable so we just want to shut it down
01:17:18.800and just be like no we know like no sex for them nothing nothing sexual yes nothing sexual for them
01:17:25.700and also show your id when you want to watch something other than bluey on youtube but also0.92
01:17:30.760the second you turn 18 you can be in that porn like yes the day yes the day you're 18 go wild
01:17:38.760I mean it's always such a pleasure talking to you you bring such a light to these sometimes
01:17:45.640tough topics where can people what are you up to where can people keep up with what you're up to
01:17:51.740tell us all the things what am I up to um I'm just back from vacation and like reassessing
01:17:58.540some kind of bigger projects that I want to do some deep dives in so we're gonna see where those
01:18:04.720take me um what i've been up to for the last few months is a big like fascist propaganda series so
01:18:10.940doing a lot of breakdowns on different types of fascist propaganda and like how they work
01:18:14.820and the themes that they typically cover and like use to manipulate people into buying into the
01:18:21.900fascist cause um and you can find that work on my tiktok at tofology or instagram or abby sr um
01:18:31.080i'm also on youtube which i think is just abby richards uh and you can read my written stuff
01:18:36.860at media matters abby is one of my favorite follows on tiktok it will it will it will it
01:18:43.080will turn your tiktok experience up a notch to follow abby thank you that's so kind i love your
01:18:48.300tiktok videos i like to see you i'm trying i'm trying i've talked about this it's like an it's
01:18:52.640like in bear i am i am an audio person because i like the idea of being a voice in somebody's ears
01:18:57.600And then when you get on video, you're like, oh, that's how I look.