00:00:52.860And I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:00:58.680I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.
00:01:02.260Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:01:09.820These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:01:13.640Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:21.260If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:01:27.400Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:35.640Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:03:11.960Will you rather your child have feminism or cancer?0.97
00:03:14.420All of these completely messed up headlines were actual headlines of stories published on the far right website, Breitbart.com, known for publishing misogynistic, xenophobic and racist articles, dangerous conspiracy theories and deliberately misleading stories.
00:03:32.060It's also one of the most important sites in the era of Trump.
00:03:35.540Their former chairman, Steve Bannon, even served as Trump's chief strategist.
00:03:40.200And where there's an online website, there's brands keeping that website afloat by giving them money to run ads on that website.
00:03:47.260But one group went on a mission to make that kind of racism, misogyny, and hate speech unprofitable.
00:03:54.420Sleeping Giants became one of the most influential activist organizations of the Trump era.
00:03:59.320Their strategy involved urging their members to tweet screenshots of brands running ads on websites that support and publish hate speech,
00:04:06.920asking if those sites match their values
00:04:31.340he and his family faced death threats.
00:04:33.960Later, Matt was profiled in a New York Times piece alongside Sleeping Giants co-founder Nandini Jami.
00:04:41.280Sleeping Giants was so successful that they contributed to Breitbart seeing a 90% drop in ad revenue.
00:04:47.140They also contributed to a broader conversation about how reputable brands are funding extremism by spending ad money on websites that publish hate speech.
00:04:56.700So this should be a success story, right?
00:04:58.720In July, Nandini published a scathing piece on Medium, saying that while she believed she was working with Matt as a partner, he gaslighted her out of the movement they built together.
00:05:10.580While their working relationship started on a good note, Matt began taking high-profile speaking engagements and obscuring her role in their work, eventually erasing her altogether.
00:05:29.740I want to show you how a woman of color1.00
00:05:31.620almost disappeared from the movement she built1.00
00:05:33.680and what you can achieve when you refuse to follow the rules
00:05:36.680your white male leader sets for you.0.68
00:05:39.400I hope other brilliant women of color and marginalized folks0.63
00:05:42.440see yourselves in me and don't wait as long as I did.1.00
00:05:46.380The stakes are too high for you to disappear.
00:05:49.500Now, Nandini is done letting her voice be left out of the narrative.
00:05:55.040So how did you get started in this work?
00:05:57.580In November 2016, I was working as head of growth for a tech startup.
00:06:03.160And I went to visit Breitbart.com for the first time after the elections.
00:06:10.140Just like everyone else, I was trying to figure out what happened and what we're dealing with here.
00:06:15.320and the first thing I noticed was ads for some of the biggest companies in the world
00:06:23.900on this website you know we've been hearing a lot about how it was putting out hate speech
00:06:30.020and you know misinformation and fake stories and all that stuff but no one had ever really talked
00:06:35.520about um the ads and the ads are how that website makes money so uh I'm no genius I just I had like
00:06:44.660run a Google ad campaign like once a couple of months before that. And I had been quite
00:06:53.600particular about where my ads were going. I was curious and interested in making sure they were
00:06:59.620appearing in sort of reputable places on the internet. And so the first thing I thought of
00:07:05.720was the site placements. The marketers who are running their campaigns are not looking at their
00:07:11.120site placements. And all we have to do is get these folks to add Breitbart.com to their exclusion
00:07:20.380list. If they do that, then Breitbart will no longer make money. It was kind of like a crazy
00:07:29.960idea because there are so many companies who have Google ads, like possibly millions. And the idea
00:07:39.620was to get all of them to one by one to drop, to drop Breitbart. So I wrote a little, I wrote a
00:07:48.520Medium post and hoped for it to go viral, where I basically sort of outlined this crackpot idea
00:07:57.080where I was like, we should all just go into our Google ads, add it to our exclusion list,
00:08:01.820and then Breitbart won't receive our money anymore. And then they'll go out of business.
00:08:04.820and um while that piece didn't go viral the concept of tweeting at a company which is something
00:08:13.760that i did as well i tweeted out at like old navy that was the first ad i saw um and letting them
00:08:18.780know that their ad is funding uh this hateful website was um was something that that took off
00:08:25.880um someone uh someone else on the other side of the country my uh my partner who became my partner
00:08:32.080had the same idea. We sort of went into business in that sense in terms of reaching out to companies
00:08:42.180and asking them to check their ads and make sure that they have Breitbart on their exclusion list.
00:08:50.780And it just kind of took off from there. So from you writing this piece, urging these brands to
00:08:56.640to block, you know, ad spins on Breitbart. This is how you first got connected with Matt. Matt
00:09:01.740reached out to you from this piece and thought we should work together. How did this, how did
00:09:05.980your relationship with Matt and Sleeping Giants come to be? So I wrote this piece on, I believe
00:09:12.000it was November 23rd. And then by the next day I had, he had like tweeted at me saying awesome
00:09:20.080article. We're doing the same thing. We should, you know, you should join us. And I was like
00:09:26.300super excited to to see that someone else had the same idea we moved very quickly from dms to email
00:09:33.380to phone um turns out like we just have a lot in common we're both copywriters um we're both
00:09:40.300originally from maryland um and and yeah he seemed really cool so i wanted to of course i wanted to
00:09:46.280work together um i think like for me working joining forces meant that we were like partners
00:09:54.460Um, he had just started sleeping giants as an account a week before, and it was, it was still nothing. You know, there was maybe a couple dozen, maybe a couple hundred followers. Um, what we decided to do was I would run the Facebook page.
00:10:13.100So we started up a Facebook page, which I became responsible for, and he continued to run the Twitter account.
00:10:21.200And there was no, like, formal agreement or anything like that because we never imagined that it would turn into anything.
00:10:29.340So we were just like, all right, like, it was just taking it one day at a time, flying by the seat of our pants kind of a deal.
00:10:37.420Nandini and Matt hit on something big.
00:10:39.580By harnessing the power of collective social media users to pressure brands out of funding hate, they were having a real impact.
00:10:47.380They got thousands of brands like AT&T, BMW, Visa, Lyft, and Warby Parker to stop running ads on Breitbart.
00:10:54.840Steve Bannon was even recorded talking about Sleeping Giants at a dinner in 2018.
00:10:59.720When I left in the takeaway campaign, we were going to make like $8 million a free cash flow that we were.
00:11:06.060After we won, this group called Sleeping Giants, a group of tech executives, they literally stripped out.
00:11:15.080They went to the 35 exchanges that sell the ads, 31 went away.
00:12:00.000Um, I mean, there was just the daily grind of, of getting ads to drop.
00:12:08.460We, I mean, just the first few months, the first few months of this campaign was every
00:12:14.480day, um, you know, a couple dozen brands or whatever would, would drop, right?
00:12:19.880But sometimes it would be like really big ones.
00:12:22.120So our first big win was Kellogg's. That was like, that resulted in Breitbart starting a campaign called, I think it was like dump Kellogg's or something. And it was, it completely backfired. They were like, Kellogg's doesn't support our, you know, Breitbart readers. So we're going, we're going to, we're going to dump Kellogg's in the sink or something like that.
00:12:50.240it was so stupid um but it gave us our first international headline so that was really cool0.98
00:12:55.560um but yeah the first the first couple of months was just like just like every every so often some1.00
00:13:01.140big brand would come out and be like yeah we're not we don't support this shit and then um after0.90
00:13:07.460a while we we felt like we could you know start working on other things the first time we moved0.99
00:13:15.600out of the, or sort of grew out of the Breitbart work was when we decided to target Bill O'Reilly's
00:13:22.380advertisers. Bill O'Reilly had been sexually harassing his colleagues in the workplace for
00:13:28.340a period of decades. And the New York Times reported on it. We were like, well, this really
00:13:34.180does, this fits into our, our mission statement of making bigotry and sexism unprofitable.
00:13:42.040and we felt like this is something we could take on so we um we decided to contact bill o'reilly
00:13:48.760advertisers using the same exact mo that we did with bright bar just you know presenting them
00:13:54.180with the information and letting them make their own decision and bill o'reilly lost dozens of
00:14:01.160advertisers and a couple months later he was on spring break and or an unplanned vacation or
00:14:09.420whatever heavy scare quotes around that i know right yeah and then he was he was gone and they
00:14:17.880were like wow we we're really on to something and um and then we went on to uh target tucker
00:14:25.640carlson's advertisers he's lost over i believe 80 advertisers over the past uh two years that
00:14:32.820We've been working on that. His show is basically unprofitable. It's one of the highest rated shows
00:14:40.800on television. It just doesn't bring in any money. Yeah. Just as a side note, one of my day jobs
00:14:45.920involves working with a feminist activist group and we've targeted Tucker Carlson over the years.
00:14:50.160And I don't know what the deal is, but it's like that guy just keeps hanging on. We can't,
00:14:55.100we can't seem to get him out of here. I think it's a lot of personal spite,
00:14:58.700to be honest because after we got we got there there was one advertiser um who uh their uh their
00:15:07.040their language learning app called babble and they put out quite the blistering statement on
00:15:12.760their tucker carlson ads um they were sort of caught uh caught unawares and they responded to
00:15:20.620our tweet saying uh this is uh we're so sorry we never um you know we're disappointed that our ads
00:15:28.300showed up on Tucker Carlson we find his rhetoric to be repugnant and that just triggered them
00:15:35.420um they released I think their first statement specifically calling us out um it was us media
00:15:42.740matters and move on.org and it was actually I mean I was very proud of that I mean we're just
00:15:48.680two people running an account in our spare time so I felt like I felt pretty proud of
00:15:58.300proud of ourselves then you should definitely feel so proud of the work that you accomplished
00:16:02.740um with sleeping giants even though it you know you should no one can take that away from you
00:16:08.000that those are huge wins and also huge you know culture changing moments you know this idea that
00:16:15.820yeah brands do have a responsibility to be a little bit choosy about where their money goes
00:16:19.640we should be pressuring brands to open their eyes to where they spend their money like that's a
00:16:24.460huge cultural shift that I don't think existed before your work. So you should definitely
00:16:28.640feel very, very proud and accomplished about that. Thank you.
00:16:33.640So when did things start to feel not so good working with Matt on Sleeping Giants?
00:16:37.420Yeah. So we had a really good relationship from the beginning. He was very nice to me. And I also,
00:16:49.400I admired him a lot and I never imagined that there would ever be problems because it was like
00:16:57.680we're both here every day putting in the work and I think there was a lot of mutual respect.
00:17:05.140At least that's what it felt like. When Matt realized that he was about to be doxed by the
00:17:09.980Daily Caller, he went to the New York Times to sort of get ahead of the story and during that
00:17:17.780time asked me whether I would like to be interviewed for the story. And I guess I, I mean, I, when he
00:17:24.420said that, I think I, I assumed that I was being asked as a partner. I spoke to the reporter. I
00:17:30.660told her, um, you know, how I was involved in all the stuff that we were doing and, you know, a little
00:17:37.160bit of background detail on, on how we worked. And she asked me if I was, um, she asked me what
00:17:43.640my title was. And I said, co-founder. And then she was like, great. And then she comes back the
00:17:48.560next day and does a little fact checking. And, um, and she's like, by the way, your partner said
00:17:53.460that you are not a co-founder. And I was like, oh, okay. And I didn't want to make a big deal
00:17:59.580out of it. So I didn't, I was like, just go with whatever he says. But, um, that was sort of the
00:18:04.940first indicator that something was off. Um, and then after that, my, uh, you know, the story came
00:18:14.600out and my partner went on to take interviews with, uh, sort of high profile, uh, outlets like
00:18:23.840Plats of America with, um, Kara Swisher spoke with Katie Couric. And it was after his interview
00:18:31.960with ad week that I became concerned about, um, about everything because he, uh, he had called
00:18:39.380himself, um, he was positioning himself as co-founder, which was fine by me. But in that
00:18:44.740article, I was positioned or portrayed as, um, one of the individuals helping him run the accounts.
00:18:50.820So at that point I called a meeting and I said, Hey, listen, I, I don't want to be portrayed as
00:18:57.180your helper or your assistant, it's important that I, that I'm also portrayed as a leader
00:19:02.760because, you know, I, I have been involved in this work for the whole time. And I realized that I'm
00:19:13.260in a really unique position. Like both of us, we're both in a very unique position to be able
00:19:18.620to influence the advertising industry. And I want to be able to speak at conferences and events.
00:19:25.060And I want to be present at the table when some of these big decisions are being made.
00:19:30.220And that's why it's important to me to have a title.
00:19:34.700So I, you know, we had that discussion and he said, I completely understand.
00:27:08.020It's difficult for me to hear about Nandini's experience with Sleeping Giants.
00:27:11.600I certainly know what it's like to be passed over for being credited or compensated for my work.
00:27:16.240And if you're a woman, especially a woman of color, you probably know what that feels like, too.
00:27:21.160I've avoided speaking up because I didn't want to seem like a bragger or someone who couldn't share the spotlight.
00:27:26.200Or worse, someone who was only interested in accolades.
00:27:30.920And in our deeply sexist culture, is there anything more shameful than being a woman who wants success?
00:27:37.260And it's especially tricky when you're working for social change.
00:27:40.480The implication being that we should all be doing the work just because we care about making change.
00:27:45.500Not because we want credit, but this line of thinking can actually be kind of a trap
00:27:49.840that keeps us from taking what's ours while our wins are claimed by somebody else.
00:27:55.340You're not an attention seeker for wanting to be acknowledged for your work.
00:27:59.420One thing that I hear time and time again is why it's important to get credit.
00:28:04.480I feel like people really need to understand that it's not about fame and fortune and the
00:28:09.920limelight, unfortunately, the way that it works in many tech industries is if you don't have a title
00:28:16.180or if you're not able to point to something and say, yeah, I did that, you're not going to get
00:28:21.920invited to the conference. You're not going to get invited to speak. You're not going to get
00:28:25.740the consulting opportunity. You're not going to be able to build up your platform to be able to
00:28:32.300have a bigger footprint to do the kind of work and make the kind of change that you want to make.
00:28:36.760And so when women, particularly women of color, advocate for themselves to get the title, to get the credit, it's not because we're fame hungry, you know, attention hungry, you know, spotlight hogs.
00:28:51.180It's because if we don't have those things, we're not going to be able to have the kind of impact that we want to be able to have.
00:28:56.880And so I think that, I mean, I guess I know that I have often felt a little skittish about asking for a title or because I don't want to look like I'm trying to, you know, be a fame, a fame hog or something.
00:29:08.400When in reality, it's just how it's just the nature of how a lot of these businesses work.
00:29:16.060I mean, you said it. That's exactly right.
00:29:18.860I was so afraid of looking like we're being perceived as someone who just wanted attention that I tried to sidestep that issue by by denying myself credit and by sort of actively staying away from the titles that would have given me the power I needed as a co-founder.
00:29:39.560when I finally made that shift from a nonsense title,
00:29:44.540founding organizer doesn't mean anything.
00:29:46.260It's like assistant to the regional manager.
00:29:50.840When I made that shift, I found that people responded to me differently.
00:29:59.440I found that I took myself more seriously.
00:40:31.320down to connect me with an opportunity.
00:40:33.160Because it doesn't cost them anything.
00:40:35.740And I really think we need to reject this mindset that tells us that we have to be stingy when it comes to resources or putting somebody else on.
00:40:42.860Because what's better is if we lift others up as we climb.
00:40:46.520And all of our work is better when we empower each other.
00:40:49.360There's truly enough room for all of us.
00:46:18.900Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:46:28.520Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:47:41.120Alongside her partner, Claire Atkin, Nandini now runs Check My Ads, an organization that helps brands keep their ad money away from fake news, disinformation and hate speech.
00:47:51.660And as much behind the scenes success as she had getting brands to pull their ad dollars away from inflammatory sites with Sleeping Giants, their work created another kind of problem.
00:48:02.200Brands concerned about ending up in Sleeping Giants' crosshairs
00:48:05.340and weary of being associated with anything negative
00:48:08.180started using keyword-blocking software
00:48:10.860to make sure their ads weren't running on controversial topics.
00:48:14.720Now, Wired reports that these ad blockers
00:48:17.020actually end up blocking terms in kind of haphazard ways.
00:48:21.560The magazine publisher Hearst complained that articles about Meghan Markle,
00:48:25.460the Duchess of Sussex, spelled S-U-S-S-E-X,
00:48:29.120were being blocked because the word sex appeared on block lists.
00:48:33.820What's worse, terms like lesbian and bisexual were blocked for being controversial.
00:48:38.920Some block lists also blocked ad placements on news articles from reputable sites about coronavirus information.
00:48:45.880And some brands were blocking their ads from news sites in general,
00:48:50.160creating less ad money for an already struggling news industry.
00:48:54.120Her new company, Check My Ads, aims to tackle the issues her work with Sleeping Giants
00:48:58.500might have inadvertently contributed to. So I want to talk about Check My Ads. I was just
00:49:03.360reading the Wired piece about Check My Ads. So in a kind of way, and forgive me if I bungle this
00:49:09.040and feel free to correct me. I'm no ad tech person, but I got a handle on it. So in a kind
00:49:15.320of way, Sleeping Giants, as many successes as y'all had, in a kind of way, it kind of made the
00:49:22.480media landscape a bit worse because some brands were then like, oh, well, if I'm going to get
00:49:28.760dinged for having my ad next to a hate site, I'm just going to have my ads pulled from anything
00:49:35.540that could be possibly read as controversial, even things like COVID. And so it really kind of
00:49:42.700created a problem for how ad dollars were spent in the media landscape more generally. Is that
00:49:49.240is that sort of correct? That's 100% correct. What I never anticipated working on this campaign
00:49:56.540when, you know, when we started tweeting at companies, we were very clear that we think
00:50:03.700that they should look at their ad placement on Breitbart because it is, you know, we use very
00:50:09.080specific descriptors like homophobic, xenophobic, racist, white nationalist. What we did not realize
00:50:16.480or anticipate was that the way that that work would be interpreted in the boardroom would be,
00:50:24.060oh, these guys are just going after content they don't agree with and content that is like so-called
00:50:31.340controversial because the boardrooms are filled with mostly white people. The ad industry is
00:50:38.560mostly white guys and the tech industry, the ad tech industry are mostly white people.
00:50:46.180So they don't feel comfortable having conversations about racism or even using that word.
00:50:51.760So they literally just walked out racist with the word controversial or offensive or even yikes, yikes moments.