There Are No Girls on the Internet - The Twitter-to-Fame Pipeline of the 2010s (w⧸ Celebrity Memoir Book Club)

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00:00:34.940 I survived nine months in captivity,

00:00:38.460 and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:00:43.680 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:00:47.300 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable,

00:00:51.020 abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:00:54.640 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:00:58.720 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app,

00:01:03.280 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:06.600 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality,

00:01:10.800 welcome home.

00:01:12.380 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:01:15.520 part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island

00:01:18.560 deserve the same level of discourse.

00:01:20.600 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture.

00:01:24.160 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:01:28.920 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:01:30.700 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:36.980 It really felt like the cryptocurrency era for comedy writers.

00:01:47.460 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:01:54.160 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:01.380 I spend a lot of time thinking about the Internet, but also a lot of time thinking about celebrity.

00:02:07.320 And I don't think the two are unrelated, because today, being online is just part of being famous.

00:02:14.140 How a celebrity shows up online can tell us just as much about Internet culture as it does about them.

00:02:19.480 And in the early 2010s, the internet rewrote the rules of fame.

00:02:24.940 A strong online voice, funny, raw, relatable, could turn tweets into real book deals, viral

00:02:31.920 posts into publishing contracts, and internet clout into real cultural capital.

00:02:37.580 It was a moment where being extremely online could genuinely change your life.

00:02:42.240 Today, I'm talking to Claire Parker and Ashley Hamilton, the hosts of my favorite podcast,

00:02:47.060 Celebrity Memoir Book Club about how that moment shaped modern celebrity and what the memoirs left

00:02:52.320 behind can teach us about internet culture, platform fame, and the stories we choose to tell.

00:02:58.680 So what is it about celebrity memoirs that made you want to dive into them for a living?

00:03:04.940 I'll be honest is that we didn't have a comedic living as we were both at the time working day

00:03:10.380 jobs trying to be stand-up comedians and actually it was our third podcast and we kind of figured

00:03:15.540 out that in order to like have a niche on the internet if you haven't done the bachelor you

00:03:20.600 can't just be two people talking and we were like we want to talk about pop culture we had also done

00:03:24.640 a britney spears podcast and felt really grossed out by like what had happened to her it was the

00:03:29.680 beginnings of the free britney era so nobody really knew what was going on yet if the rumors

00:03:33.920 were true or not but we were like whatever that whatever is true we do not want to be part of a

00:03:38.880 group of people who talk about celebrities in a way that drives them to potentially being like

00:03:43.880 fully trapped by their dad in like a mental legal contract so we were like okay how do you make fun

00:03:49.500 of a celebrity in their own words and then mariah carey and jessica simpson were coming out with

00:03:53.600 memoirs around the same time and we're like done they're literally whenever somebody goes um why

00:03:57.580 is this even your business i go well they sold it to us in a book and this is actually literally my

00:04:01.900 full-time job so it's everybody's business this is an economy of sorts so i feel like it's easy

00:04:08.300 to sort of discount celebrity books as fluff, meaningless,

00:04:12.360 but something I've really learned

00:04:13.720 from listening to the podcast

00:04:14.680 is that even bad celebrity books

00:04:16.960 do tell us something about the world that we live in.

00:04:20.080 What do you think that celebrity memoirs

00:04:21.560 tell us about the time or the culture

00:04:23.520 that they were produced in?

00:04:25.060 I think the pop culture and like celebrity culture

00:04:27.540 in general is dismissed as like just frivolous nonsense,

00:04:31.000 even though it is like one of the more popular topics

00:04:35.120 of conversation across like all people and so the way that you can get a gauge on society from how

00:04:42.800 they talk about like moments in pop culture like you can see like the swing towards you know

00:04:50.080 trad wife like the diminishing of women's rights like in the amber herd johnny depp case like there

00:04:55.240 are so many things that you can watch it happen in the way people talk about women in pop culture

00:05:00.080 and people in in like the celebrity sphere and I think that the books are such an interesting

00:05:05.760 look at all of it because I think it's so interesting to look at the way people present

00:05:11.560 themselves in that space and like whether or not they acknowledge the way that like they contribute

00:05:16.600 to like the way people look at the world and I think the way that they like don't mention certain

00:05:25.000 things or the way they think things come up completely normal is such a like fascinating

00:05:28.800 look at our society and then again the way that people will like let them get away with it based

00:05:33.600 on how generally likable someone is is so fascinating I also think when you read these

00:05:39.520 memoirs and get get the whole story versus when you're living through it and seeing the headlines

00:05:45.160 it helps you remember that there is like a cohesive story going on and I mean in this

00:05:51.640 world of clickbait hot moments you have to constantly fight yourself to not just like

00:05:57.580 take the headline and run with it, but try to understand the larger narrative at play.

00:06:02.700 I feel like the amount of times like a woman has been absolutely demolished by the public

00:06:08.160 because of a bad night out. And then you look at what was happening in her life and she's like,

00:06:12.480 well, my dad just died and my husband just divorced me and I was postpartum and I was

00:06:16.340 being forced to work. And you're like, oh, OK. So she was like going through it.

00:06:21.800 Women really going through it memoirs are one of my favorites of the genre.

00:06:25.660 For instance, the tech book everyone was talking about this year, Careless People, is basically a woman-going-through-some-stuff memoir.

00:06:34.520 Even if you haven't read Careless People, the memoir by Sarah Wynne Williams, former director of public policy at Facebook, you've probably seen the headlines.

00:06:42.840 And wow, were they scandalous.

00:06:45.260 Stories about Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg buying her female staff lingerie and even sharing beds with them on work trips.

00:06:52.820 But those viral moments, as wild as they are, overshadowed stories that were much more disturbing, like Wynne Williams' first-hand account of Facebook's complicity in global harm, including the company's admitted role in the genocide of the Rohingya people in Myanmar.

00:07:09.160 We just read the Facebook book, Careless People, that memoir.

00:07:12.320 It's less celebrity, but more like Facebook is a celebrity.

00:07:16.020 Mark Zuckerberg is a celebrity.

00:07:17.700 But it's so interesting, even the way memoirs are covered, where the headline will be, I

00:07:23.120 think the headline with that Careless People article was like, Sheryl Sandberg bought lingerie

00:07:27.420 for her assistant.

00:07:28.660 And listen, not great.

00:07:30.140 But when you read the book, what Facebook was doing and is doing was so much more horrific.

00:07:34.400 she describes essentially watching over the Rohingya genocide in Myanmar 10 years ago

00:07:42.260 as it was being incited by Facebook posts that she couldn't get anyone on the inside of Facebook to

00:07:46.700 take down that they kept saying this isn't hate speech this isn't hate speech well like literally

00:07:50.240 10,000 people were being slaughtered in the street and she was like we need to take this down to

00:07:54.540 prevent more deaths and she couldn't get it done and the idea that like I'm sorry it's bad to buy

00:07:58.900 your assistant lingerie it's worse to incite genocide and the fact that the media coverage

00:08:04.680 of that book seems to be so sexy fun scandalous I think that that's like how a lot of media is

00:08:12.360 and even if there are I think there are journalists doing good work but what goes viral what comes to

00:08:17.760 you have to seek out the whole story and this is like a good maybe lighter way to remember that

00:08:22.020 lesson that's such a good example and I'm I'm I'm in the middle of that book myself oh my god sorry

00:08:28.360 no spoiler alert there's a genocide at the end I know about that but you know I I am intrigued by

00:08:35.640 the fact that it's a memoir right like it could have easily been a like Kara Swisher style kind

00:08:40.940 of hard-hitting non-fiction book but the fact that it's a memoir it really is about like how it felt

00:08:46.660 from her perspective and I think it just comes at it in such a different an interesting and

00:08:51.100 different angle of like this is what you remember from you this experience of being at Facebook and

00:08:55.180 all the ways that fucked you up and not necessarily like here's the hard hitting facts of like what

00:09:00.340 went on it really allows you to really I don't know see her perspective and live in that experience

00:09:05.120 a lot more another thing that I think is so like why I like the memoir genre so much is because of

00:09:11.040 that because I think there are so many things that like as a society especially with the constant

00:09:14.940 onslaught of news I feel like we see this a lot with reality tv and celebrity in general the way

00:09:20.240 that people like believe in such a control do you know what I mean like they they're like everyone

00:09:25.900 like this is how I would have reacted to this thing now that I'm reading the full picture so

00:09:29.980 like that's how you should have reacted to it and I think reading someone's thought process

00:09:34.160 as it was happening instead of just the facts like allows you to be like oh they're a person

00:09:40.620 reacting with humanity not a sim reacting with like control do you know what I mean absolutely

00:09:49.000 yeah and it's easy i do think that there's something about our culture where that's easy

00:09:53.380 to forget where when someone is talking about an experience it's so easy to say like well this is

00:09:58.580 what i would have done or this the way that she responded doesn't make sense because of xyz like

00:10:02.800 it just gives us such a look into what they were actually feeling and experiencing yeah i think

00:10:07.900 right now we're in this weird era of everyone thinks there's this pr overlord that's like

00:10:12.560 pulling the strings i mean even we had a journalist say to us like well it's very clear

00:10:17.720 that you're promoted and sponsored by diet coke because you have diet cokes in the videos you make

00:10:22.460 a lot like i was laughing as a journalist suggested this and we were just like no we just record for

00:10:26.340 like three straight hours so sometimes we need caffeine and that's as deep as that is we just

00:10:30.540 sincerely are drinking diet cokes like most people on earth very nice to have a beverage when you're

00:10:36.360 sitting at a table chatting every people really the taylor swiftification and like the conspiracy

00:10:43.140 theories I think we're in this era right now of feeling like everybody's tricking you and

00:10:48.860 everything's advertising and everything is everything's prescribable too I think it also

00:10:54.300 falls in with the therapy speak and the way everything can be diagnosed everything has 0.84

00:10:58.540 like nothing is ambiguous everything has a cause and effect like I don't like Huda crashing out on

00:11:07.600 love island is because she's an abuser and you're like right i don't know i just think she's a

00:11:13.580 single mom who's tired she might be like sleep deprived in a very stressful fishbowl situation 0.91

00:11:19.100 the way that if i were in her shoes i would immediately crash out immediately like like 0.96

00:11:24.940 lose my shit and it's like yeah maybe she's just in a a weird situation for the first time 0.88

00:11:29.900 and she's having a big reaction to that it doesn't necessarily mean like there's some dark 0.99

00:11:34.440 underbelly of abuse happening deeply manipulative language i'm like i don't she's she's not jacks

00:11:40.740 taylor listen why can't she have a crash out but taylor swift gets to write the tortured poets

00:11:45.800 department you know what i mean who's allowed in our society to crash out over a situation ship

00:11:51.500 i'd like to review yes the way people can like pin it on these like very specific trigger words

00:11:57.800 it like really strips the humanity out of everything and so like getting the full story

00:12:02.140 all the time is nice.

00:12:04.940 I like knowing what happened.

00:12:09.340 Let's take a quick break.

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00:12:30.300 run a business and not thinking about podcasting think again more americans listen to podcasts

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00:12:57.020 you at iHeartAdvertising.com. That's iHeartAdvertising.com. If your bookshelf and your

00:13:02.760 for you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society,

00:13:09.600 the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture

00:13:14.260 obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level

00:13:18.560 of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet,

00:13:23.920 and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:13:26.940 I'm going to have to look up this story.

00:13:28.840 I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed.

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00:13:59.480 See you between the pages.

00:14:01.540 When I was 14 years old,

00:14:03.840 I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:14:07.360 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring

00:14:10.060 how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:14:13.640 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:14:17.280 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear 0.99

00:14:22.160 saying, shut up. Don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.99

00:14:30.140 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there

00:14:36.880 was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked,

00:14:44.140 controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:14:49.060 There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:14:53.220 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:15:06.780 And we're back.

00:15:09.940 Remember the 2010s?

00:15:12.560 Ubers were cheap, Barack Obama was president.

00:15:15.100 In a lot of ways, it was a simpler, happier time.

00:15:17.860 and the internet was really different too.

00:15:20.340 Back then, 20,000 followers at a viral tweet

00:15:23.500 could get you a book deal

00:15:24.580 and being internet funny was a viable career plan.

00:15:28.580 Things feel very different today,

00:15:30.700 but I'm still so fascinated by that era

00:15:33.260 and the cultural scaffolding it left us with.

00:15:36.140 So the reason I reached out to the both of you

00:15:38.300 was I was listening to your episode

00:15:40.200 on Kelly Oxford's book, 0.59

00:15:41.620 Everything is Perfect When You're a Liar,

00:15:42.980 published in 2013.

00:15:44.220 If you don't know who Kelly Oxford is,

00:15:45.660 she's a writer who was one of the first people 0.99

00:15:47.560 who really got famous and blew up on the early days of Twitter for her snarky, relatable tweets.

00:15:53.080 And celebrities loved her on Twitter. She used that attention on Twitter to parlay that into 0.98

00:15:58.680 a book deal for this book. It became a New York Times bestseller, and she parlayed that into a

00:16:02.980 real Hollywood writing career. And I was kind of stunned by that trajectory and how commonplace it

00:16:08.380 was back in the early days of social media and how that trajectory seems basically impossible

00:16:13.580 today in 2025. And the way that you all described this time and culture that I almost would have

00:16:19.320 forgotten about, the 2010s. You've got a mustache on your finger. Yes, you've got a mustache on

00:16:25.160 your finger. Katy Perry is like the height of culture. You know, who's the girl from New 1.00

00:16:31.600 Girls? Zooey Deschanel is like what every kind of quirky girl wants to be. Tina Fey is the funniest

00:16:37.780 woman on the planet. Chrissy Teigen would tweet something and then there'd be a hundred headlines

00:16:41.720 like Chrissy Teigen claps back on the haters on Twitter on BuzzFeed you know I BuzzFeed

00:16:47.960 what do you all remember about this time online I guess I remember lists obviously Chrissy Teigen's

00:16:55.960 12 best clap backs oh my god like Rihanna's 12 best reactions um I wonder if it's like I'm

00:17:04.040 thinking about we also read Anna Kendrick's book that came out around that era which was based on

00:17:09.180 her successful Twitter and it's so funny to go back like what took a successful Twitter back

00:17:12.840 then was like 35,000 followers and it's like now that's scratching the surface you couldn't get a

00:17:17.300 you couldn't get a coffee for 35,000 Twitter followers but I think we were in this like era

00:17:22.920 of like Obama era America where the VC companies were funding all of our lives I hear people talk

00:17:29.520 about that a lot like the class pass uber seamless everything was relatively like all

00:17:34.860 these new apps made things efficient and affordable and we weren't really aware of

00:17:39.180 the hell that was coming. Airbnb was new. It felt like America might be going in a good

00:17:44.080 direction. Oy vey. Were we about to be slapped in the face by that? But I think there was this idea

00:17:50.140 that it was okay to be ironic. I think there was a height of irony at that point because people

00:17:54.020 felt that things were going good. So it was okay to be like twee and ironic and like this kind of

00:17:59.460 like toothless snarkiness where it was very watered down Larry David. Do you know what I

00:18:04.860 mean it was like yeah it was like the christian girl version of a jewish man comedy yes i also

00:18:13.180 feel i wonder if there is something to be said about the way that it was like the rise of social

00:18:19.360 media crossed with still the dominance of mainstream media like so i was saying like

00:18:24.660 you didn't actually have to have that many followers but like people were on social media

00:18:27.920 kind of making a name for themselves but those names were defined by mainstream media picking

00:18:32.560 who was the main ones do you know what I mean like absolutely people would get twitter followers

00:18:36.560 but if you were looking for new people to follow on twitter you'd go to buzzfeed and be like well

00:18:40.340 who did they pick as like the eight funniest people on twitter and like they the mainstream

00:18:45.240 media was still deciding who within social media was like the top choices and like the funniest

00:18:51.580 people in the world and those accounts then became tv shows yeah yeah like there was a real currency

00:18:57.660 there because as you all say in that episode you could have 20 000 followers and get retweeted by

00:19:02.820 lena dunham or patten oswald and then you might have an editor or somebody in your dms and that

00:19:06.940 could translate to an actual paid writing gig or like a staff position on a late night show

00:19:10.880 yeah i really felt like the cryptocurrency era for comedy writers and that like the bubbles that

00:19:17.880 were bursting you know what i mean like the amount of attention and overall deals that were

00:19:22.480 inked for people that had quite literally only come up with 1400 characters of comedy like when

00:19:27.300 you had 10 hit tweets that was truly 10 sentences and people were like could you do a full-length

00:19:32.920 film and it's like maybe but this would not let you know in any direction really I mean I knew

00:19:38.700 someone who was like this 19 year old twitter prodigy who was viewed as like the next it girl

00:19:44.100 of LA and I like don't even want to say her name because it fell off so hard like I think she's

00:19:48.240 like a wedding photographer now oh and then the other thing is that it was in an era of the

00:19:52.620 internet where, like, you still only knew what people were telling you about themselves.

00:19:58.540 One thing about that era of Twitter, it looked like people just got randomly chosen by the

00:20:04.140 algorithmic gods to go from internet funny to published author. Joke accounts with one running

00:20:09.800 bit became book deals with titles like Shit My Dad Says. Take Charlie McDowell. In the 2010s, 0.99

00:20:17.040 he was just a writer in LA, getting increasingly annoyed by his loud upstairs neighbors.

00:20:22.060 Instead of just leaving a note, he started tweeting about it from a new account,

00:20:25.900 Dear Girls Above Me, and it blew up.

00:20:28.600 Time Magazine ranked it one of the top 140 Twitter accounts of 2012.

00:20:33.380 That led to a book deal, and that success helped launch his career as a film director.

00:20:38.660 A real Twitter-to-Hollywood Cinderella story, right?

00:20:41.880 Well, not exactly, because what you didn't see on Twitter

00:20:45.160 was how deeply connected Charlie already was to Hollywood.

00:20:49.360 So watching on the outside,

00:20:50.820 it probably felt like anybody could have made it big online.

00:20:54.040 It definitely helps if your stepdad is Ted Danson.

00:20:58.060 Naturally, Ashley, who is also a comedian,

00:21:00.380 has thoughts about that. 1.00

00:21:03.760 There was still like a Nepo baby of it all. 1.00

00:21:06.280 There was still some shit where I'm like, 1.00

00:21:08.080 some people were heavily connected. 0.98

00:21:09.280 Like Charlie McDowell of Dear Girls Above Me.

00:21:11.880 This is Ashley's like low key.

00:21:13.720 You know those people that you're like,

00:21:15.160 I talk about this person way more

00:21:17.080 than a lot of people talk about this person.

00:21:18.420 Like, he doesn't come up a lot, but compared to how often other people are bringing him up,

00:21:22.520 this is Ashley's truly her Roman Empire.

00:21:25.240 This is my Roman Empire, because I think at the time, I remember people finding it as, like, an organic account.

00:21:30.600 I remember this account and, like, being told about how funny this random guy who lives underneath these two girls is.

00:21:36.180 And now you read it and you're like, oh, my God, this is so sexist.

00:21:38.760 And also he is, like, his parents are actors, but, like, they're both successful and you would recognize them from things.

00:21:46.100 and now he's married to lily collins and you're like oh my god his twitter didn't become a book

00:21:50.680 because he's funny dude we were living in such a liberal ideal i like it was just thinking about

00:21:56.360 do you know i mean i feel like i'm thinking about like race relations and clarity rock

00:22:01.300 and the way that it was so there was such an idea of like well we we beat it we beat racism

00:22:06.940 in this country and then also with the beauty scene there's something about beyonce's i woke 0.97

00:22:11.400 up like this i remember there was like this feminist photo shoot at my college where you 0.71

00:22:14.780 could show up with makeup if you like however you feel best and that would be your I woke up like 1.00

00:22:20.160 this like it was pre um body positivity but at a time where the most beautiful skinniest woman 0.95

00:22:26.460 you've ever seen would kind of tousle her hair and be like I don't even care and like and we took 1.00

00:22:31.520 that we were just like yeah she's so quirky she wears sweatpants it reminds me of what you say in 1.00

00:22:38.540 the about the Kelly Oxford book that like the funniest thing a woman could be is like obsessed 1.00

00:22:42.940 with sandwiches and bacon but also thin yes it was this idea of like we were opening the confines 0.99

00:22:49.580 of what it meant to be a woman and be funny but with that but you still better play the part do

00:22:54.640 know what i mean and jennifer lawrence the belching oh god jennifer lawrence i mean i i was i would

00:23:01.560 she hasn't written the memoir but i would love to have for you all to do a deep dive under her

00:23:05.880 because i mean it was like we have a word for it now pick me but i do think that you had to be in

00:23:12.100 this walk this very specific line as like a funny quirky woman in the public eye I would argue that

00:23:18.520 this entire era came crashing down when Jennifer Lawrence fell for the second time I think everyone

00:23:23.820 that moment the moment she hit the ground again everyone thought this is this is enough well

00:23:29.340 that I think is very with the pick me era that I think is true is because I feel like there was

00:23:36.300 this like liberal idealism of like, we're all equal and Hillary Clinton, right? Like she's

00:23:42.420 something. She's something to write home about. But I think there was this idea that women could

00:23:46.980 be more honest and real. But when you think about who was picking, it was still the mainstream 0.98

00:23:52.300 media. And so Twitter gave us this illusion of getting to know people in a more sincere,

00:23:57.480 honest way. But at the end of the day, you had to be on the Stephen Colbert show. Like you had

00:24:01.780 be picked by the man that owns NBC whereas today I do think there is there are fewer gatekeepers in

00:24:09.000 terms of like you can create an online community obviously still a long way to go but I do think

00:24:14.180 right now there are non-mainstream ways to like make a living I'd say me and Ashley do one of

00:24:18.800 them with like Patreon and stuff and I think with direct like support from followers and stuff that

00:24:24.180 does allow you to carve out a piece of the internet whereas back then you the internet was a tool to

00:24:29.020 launch into the very traditional forms of media. Yeah. And I almost wonder if some of the books

00:24:35.120 that you that you talk about kind of reveal the fallacy of what, you know, not everybody who can

00:24:41.500 make a funny quip on Twitter in 140 characters should be expanding upon that in a 140 page

00:24:47.300 memoir. And when you read some of these memoirs, they just seem so dated and they just don't feel

00:24:53.440 substantive. And I wonder if that reveals the fallacy of like, oh, if you are funny on Twitter,

00:24:58.040 that needs to be connected to a kind of mainstream success which is publishing a comedy memoir

00:25:02.580 well I think what happens is when you're funny for twitter you learn to write a very certain

00:25:07.320 style it's like you're being funny for king of queens you know what I mean and then what happens

00:25:11.540 is everybody's fitting into this one mold of how to be funny in these quippy little ways and they

00:25:16.660 don't realize how dated it is like it's funny to think of a personality type or a comedy style as

00:25:21.420 like very dated but you read it back now and it's so millennial cringe and they're all writing like

00:25:27.720 Yeah. They're all like, I don't want to wait in line for a cop. Like, lattes. I don't know.

00:25:35.160 And like another thing that I think is so interesting, what you were just saying about

00:25:39.020 the way that like it's still being chosen by the president of NBC, is that a lot of the people who

00:25:45.420 came out of this era are still very attractive, mostly white people, even the ones that are

00:25:51.080 strictly writers. Kelly Oxford never really like made a play for being in front of the camera,

00:25:56.540 but she is still a very attractive white woman the girl that i know was like a very cute white 0.99

00:26:02.080 woman like most of these people were still just very exactly what was already getting picked but

00:26:08.600 like maybe sometimes a girl this time like anna kendrick blowing up on twitter you're like yeah i 1.00

00:26:13.260 don't know she's anna she's already a famous actress fucking charlie mcdowell 0.79

00:26:17.360 has she said on this podcast who charlie mcdowell's parents are the mom is mary steenberg 0.98

00:26:25.340 who is she's the woman in all the Will Ferrell movies you know the hot mom yes oh my god and

00:26:33.720 then the dad is Malcolm McDowell okay so to like wasn't just didn't just fall into you know writing

00:26:42.020 a book and publishing a book because they were good on Twitter it would be helpful to know how

00:26:46.920 deeply connected this person is and how that was connected to their rise yeah and then by the way

00:26:51.200 Mary Steenberg right now is married to Ted Danson and they have been for like 30 years.

00:26:59.580 Ashley, what is it about this person that you, that like, you can't, you can't sort of can't

00:27:04.840 get over? Like, why are you, how did their hooks get in you? I feel like, okay, so my mom was on

00:27:10.200 Twitter a lot and I feel like Kelly Oxford and Charlie McDowell were two of her favorite Twitter

00:27:14.820 accounts. And she like, and this was when I was living in LA and like starting comedy. And so I

00:27:19.720 knew some people in the Twitter like some people who were big on Twitter and you'd meet them and

00:27:24.180 be like holy shit that person's like Twitter famous and I never met him but I remember being

00:27:28.320 so specifically like whatever he's doing is working and I have to figure that out and then

00:27:34.600 I like kind of forgot about him but he really like imprinted on me in like 2014 and then when

00:27:41.620 we did the Lily Collins book a couple of years ago and I like googled her and she's recently

00:27:47.720 married to charlie mcdowell i was like why does that name ring a bell and when i realized who it

00:27:51.960 was and who his parents were i feel like i went insane so i also want to say his twitter at the

00:27:56.860 time was like dear girls upstairs right was that what it was called dear girls above me dear girls

00:28:01.980 above me and the premise of the twitter account because there used to be all these real these 1.00

00:28:05.900 twitter accounts that had like one shtick shit my dad says shit my dad says things white people like 0.99

00:28:10.940 coffee npr that was like a book at urban outfitters you could buy i mean that was the 0.99

00:28:17.900 book but um his was essentially just making fun of these two fictional girls who quote unquote

00:28:22.980 lived above him that were obviously just like two white and pre-instagram models instagram models

00:28:28.860 and when you look back it was just like a mean-spirited thing like making fun of like

00:28:32.980 it's very much like you're inventing someone online to be mad about like you just made up 1.00

00:28:36.800 these two girls and then called them stupid every day and it is like when you look back like fuck 0.99

00:28:40.840 you try being funny I feel like I remember it as such a like cultural touchstone and then when we 1.00

00:28:47.120 remembered it via the Lily Collins memoir and I went back and I looked at the archive of tweets

00:28:51.420 I was like wait these girls never existed you barely even existed you were just like the son

00:28:58.320 of actors like this is crazy that this was such an important like aspiration and I guess watching

00:29:07.140 it unfold you know that era and on twitter it kind of gave the impression that anybody could

00:29:12.640 amass 20 000 followers and and luck into this kind of real career success of publishing a book

00:29:17.980 but then when you actually dig into it it's like well probably not anybody it probably did take

00:29:23.060 more than you know the followers and the quips or whatever yeah i yes exactly there was like a real

00:29:29.580 i think actually was fun when she says before people actually found out who you really were

00:29:33.500 More after a quick break.

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00:30:28.220 When I was 14 years old,

00:30:30.480 I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:30:34.160 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring

00:30:36.760 how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:30:40.560 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:30:44.220 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:30:49.640 shut up, don't say anything.

00:30:52.300 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:30:56.520 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt,

00:30:59.880 he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just

00:31:06.800 started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't

00:31:13.600 stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:31:19.900 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

00:31:25.820 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:31:28.340 If your bookshelf and your For You page

00:31:30.340 are equally important to your personality,

00:31:32.760 welcome home.

00:31:34.300 This is Prose Society,

00:31:36.380 the weekly podcast that's part book club,

00:31:38.920 part group chat for thought daughters,

00:31:40.680 pop culture obsessives,

00:31:41.900 and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice

00:31:43.700 and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:31:46.660 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week,

00:31:48.440 we're connecting the dots between books,

00:31:50.440 the internet, and the conversations

00:31:51.860 everyone can't stop having.

00:31:53.700 I'm going to have to look up this story.

00:31:55.400 I'm obsessed, so obsessed.

00:31:57.460 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators

00:32:00.060 to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:32:03.780 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters,

00:32:09.360 then that is a Trojan horse.

00:32:11.240 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations,

00:32:15.260 or a community of readers who love to think a little too much,

00:32:18.760 you're in the right place.

00:32:20.440 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,

00:32:23.040 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.

00:32:33.660 Let's get right back into it. I've listened to a lot of Celebrity Memoir Book Club,

00:32:39.400 like almost every episode. So I've heard Ashley and Claire break down hundreds of celebrity

00:32:44.060 memoirs. And let's be real, some of them do not age well. There are books that read less like

00:32:50.320 life stories and more like a string of casual racism dressed up as insight. The kind of stuff

00:32:55.380 that screams of an era and not in a good way. So memoirs, especially of this era, what do you

00:33:02.500 think separates the ones that just sound so dated from the ones that like have staying power or like

00:33:08.380 don't really seem as dated or that you can really connect with even reading them years later?

00:33:12.840 I mean, I think it has to be like a sincere story you want to tell. Because I mean, human stories

00:33:18.280 have been true since the dawn of time like you read the odyssey and you can connect to it because

00:33:23.080 it's like there've only been so many human experiences and emotions and you can tap into

00:33:29.060 that good example is like i you saw the picture of dorian gray on broadway so i reread it and

00:33:35.100 there was so much in it that i was like oh my god this is about like influencers and so

00:33:41.220 So I think that then you take these books that came from like Twitter virality specifically, which in the time had a very specific like tone of snarkiness.

00:33:53.680 Like Claire said, it was just like dripping in snark.

00:33:57.440 And then you take this like pseudo vulnerability that's actually just snarkiness and turn that into a book like there is nothing that's going to stick.

00:34:05.500 i also think it really has to do with how vulnerable you'll be because those that twitter

00:34:10.460 virality from 2014 specifically was very much light-hearted punching down i wouldn't say anybody 0.97

00:34:16.220 was being out and out cruel but there is this is like these girls above me are dumb chrissy tegan's 0.98

00:34:21.240 calling some poor teen mama slut like there is a lot of punching down happening where you got to 0.99

00:34:26.300 just be like what i'm just saying it and something that happens is top like that kind of humor gets 0.99

00:34:31.780 dated because who in society is allowed to be the butt of a joke changes. And I think a good

00:34:36.580 example is Tina Fey. When you look back at like how she deals with like racial jokes in 30 Rock,

00:34:43.740 the joke she makes like with Tracy Morgan versus Jenna Maroney being like, what's harder, black

00:34:48.920 man, white woman. Those are done, I feel like with an awareness, whereas Asian people are like just 1.00

00:34:55.240 straight up a punchline. Like whether or not you find her jokes funny, like you could be like, oh, 1.00

00:34:59.960 But like there's clearly the joke is racism, whereas like the Asian jokes are racist.

00:35:05.780 You know what I mean?

00:35:07.180 Here's Tina Fey on Jimmy Fallon's late night show back in 2014. 0.91

00:35:11.160 Little one, two and a half, didn't talk for a long time.

00:35:13.780 And now finally is talking a lot and big, long sentences, so cute and great.

00:35:18.560 And she has a very specific way of talking. 0.96

00:35:21.940 I realize she kind of sounds like a prostitute in like a Vietnam movie. 0.99

00:35:27.340 She seems like an apocalypse. 1.00

00:35:28.540 She's like, no, you're not giving me a cookie.

00:35:30.840 I'll go with you.

00:35:33.240 Like, you changed my diaper.

00:35:37.580 Then 10 years later, it turns out you're not allowed to be racist to Asian people openly anymore. 0.96

00:35:42.180 And her book looks insane. 0.54

00:35:44.300 Yeah.

00:35:44.880 In Kelly Oxford's memoir, she describes seeing someone on the street and specifically notes that person is Chinese. 1.00

00:35:51.140 And it's clearly sort of meant to be the joke. 0.97

00:35:53.760 because as you say in the episode about the book this is when the funniest thing a person could be

00:35:58.960 was an ethnicity it really is yeah just naming races is like a really funny thing to do and it's

00:36:05.620 it's just dated and i think so and that's all because those stories aren't really vulnerable

00:36:10.680 honest stories they're like naming races yeah you're trying to be funny and being vulnerable

00:36:18.960 lasts forever and being funny it's crazy how how quickly that becomes outdated especially edgy

00:36:25.860 humor you know the only thing that's funny is falling down jennifer lawrence was actually

00:36:30.740 exactly right she was right to fall down she was wrong to fart on that sacred rock

00:36:36.820 well as we moved away from like the 2010s twitter millennial culture how do you see that impacting

00:36:46.880 the next generation or the current generation of celebrity memoirs that are going to be coming out

00:36:50.740 it'll be interesting because i think things already move so much faster that i wonder how

00:36:57.240 much of this is like being turned into a book before time like i wonder what's going you know

00:37:03.640 what i mean because like twitter was writing and writing to a book deal feels like a trajectory

00:37:08.140 where i'd like tiktok to a book i think some people are doing it but like even there they

00:37:14.540 know there needs to be a very specific angle that isn't necessarily like because even tiktok we've

00:37:19.200 seen the exact same um what do you call it like life cycle of twitter where like first people are

00:37:26.120 just doing these like snarky little characters and then people actually like within months they'll be

00:37:31.280 like that tiktok trend from a couple months ago was actually really fucked up you know what i mean

00:37:35.500 and so there's a lot more it's like faster turnaround with what is like i think right now

00:37:43.080 there's a anybody who has any followers online can get mired in scandal or can get canceled can

00:37:49.760 get like you know i mean like there's so many more people in the public eye because the public

00:37:54.160 eye is all of us now like there's no more gatekeeping of the tabloids it's like anyone

00:37:58.220 that you follow you're interested in and i think a lot more people will want to set the record

00:38:02.340 straight like a lot more people feel like they have a lot more things to go back and be like

00:38:05.260 by the way you were all dead wrong about me because like now it's just 35 people commenting

00:38:09.540 something and but you're like I have to set the record straight on this and so I think a lot more

00:38:13.820 people are going to feel compelled to be like I have to tell you what was really going on once

00:38:17.200 the dust settles yeah but I think it's going to be a lot more about like explaining after the dust

00:38:22.120 settles and less about turning the current shtick into a book and I think that'll be interesting

00:38:28.300 so I have a couple of rapid fire questions for you first of all worst celebrity memoir that 0.98

00:38:39.260 you've ever read i mean in what way like the most boring the most delusional the most fucked up 0.69

00:38:46.040 i would say the one that most did not need to be a book the most the most like why why did you write 0.89

00:38:51.860 this well you know it's funny i would say we were talking about like the the new kind of memoir

00:38:55.840 which is no longer the twitter funny memoir but the let me explain myself memoir was hilaria

00:39:00.360 baldwin's we just read and it is like eight chapters directly speaking to the daily mail

00:39:07.040 and you're like I don't even know what you're talking about Hilaria she's like explaining

00:39:10.340 herself up against situations that don't even make sense and you're like not a thing is explained

00:39:15.140 there's no overarching narrative there's no like I was born here and then this is how I got to where

00:39:19.880 I'm at now it's still like and here's something someone said about me and here's why it can't

00:39:23.560 possibly be true and like not even here's something someone said about me she'll like

00:39:28.000 she'll if because people say like she was faking her accent instead of saying people said I was

00:39:33.520 making my accent and that's not true she'll go and you know something about accents and like

00:39:37.880 that's how it starts and you're like wait what okay it's so funny that you mentioned this because

00:39:44.600 she's sort of my roman empire i don't think i've ever told this story in public before but everybody

00:39:49.500 who knows me has heard this in real life this is an exclusive so i have met her i met her before

00:39:56.400 the fallout i was working i don't want to give too many details but i was working on behind the

00:40:01.920 scenes on a podcast and she was one of the guests I this was one of those jobs I had that felt very

00:40:06.580 tenuous so I was like I need to show up on my a-game every single day so the host understandably

00:40:12.260 was really particular about pronunciations of names so when we had a guest I would listen to

00:40:16.920 audio of the person saying their own name write it out phonetically to give to the host so that

00:40:21.300 she felt confident in saying this name so I kind of need to hire you well I mean this was a time

00:40:26.800 where I was like putting way too much like really over preparing for like it's just a celebrity

00:40:32.020 podcast like you really probably didn't need to take it that far so I listened to footage of her

00:40:36.220 saying her own name granted this footage was from several years earlier kind of before she blew up

00:40:41.300 and got super famous but the way that my name is pronounced today is the way my name is going to

00:40:45.340 be pronounced in 10 years so I figured this is fine she said her name Hilaria clearly an offshoot

00:40:50.380 of the name Hillary that is how she says it when I give this information to the host the host is

00:40:55.700 like, Hilaria Baldwin, welcome. And she says, no, it's E-Laria, E-Laria. And the host is like,

00:41:01.920 she's cool about it. But then after the fact, she's like, you know, I felt like an asshole 1.00

00:41:05.720 that I mispronounced her, a person of color's name kind of wasn't great. And I was like, oh, 0.98

00:41:10.540 shit. So I kind of took a little bit of a reaming out at my job because of this. Then cut to when 1.00

00:41:17.060 the whole thing unfolds. And I was just thinking, this woman really lied. She lied to me and she 1.00

00:41:23.160 lied in a way that jeopardized my job that's she's european of color she's not she's lying 0.97

00:41:30.280 about being european our french people she's no better than a french person that's like the one 0.67

00:41:38.140 and the defense i always have of her fake accent is that i'm like i don't know white people do

00:41:42.100 british accents all the time spain is also like a colonial empire so like they're not like i don't

00:41:50.800 know I feel like it's racist the way they're not always like like you just they're people I'm like

00:41:56.860 it's not that same thing um however for her to get you in trouble is psychotic for her to like

00:42:03.780 in the way she insists upon it I'm like I mean it's just not true like you heard her say

00:42:08.540 Hilaria video footage of her saying Hilaria you don't get to change your name based on the vibes

00:42:13.960 No, you don't get to just, like, you need to just go with whatever people are saying if you've made it up.

00:42:21.940 If you've made it up yourself that day.

00:42:25.540 Is there a celebrity memoir that surprised you the most?

00:42:28.840 Like, you thought it was going to be one kind of read and it turned out to be another.

00:42:32.820 Minka Kelly is always, I feel like, one of our go-tos with that, where we're always just like, I don't know, 0.98

00:42:37.480 Leila Garrity from Friday Night Lights, what the fuck is she talking about?

00:42:40.500 And then you're like, oh, the most heartfelt story about, like, self-discovery. 0.98

00:42:45.320 Amazing.

00:42:48.880 Yeah, I would say for me, it's Tori Spelling, because I never really gave Tori Spelling much thought.

00:42:55.160 But then hearing you all really dive into the minutia of how she shows up in the world is fascinating.

00:43:00.860 And now I'm like, she's actually a very fascinating person.

00:43:03.360 She needs to be studied in a lab.

00:43:04.960 She does.

00:43:05.700 It really does go to show money isn't everything, because what if your dad was Aaron Spelling and you came out like it's weird to watch someone and be like, how do you have a worse life than me?

00:43:14.460 Yeah.

00:43:16.780 How could that much cashmere be bad for you?

00:43:20.400 That's a good way to put it.

00:43:21.800 Here's our two memoirs that we would like if they in case Katie Holmes and Nicolas Cage are listeners of yours.

00:43:29.440 We should. I mean, if they are, please reach out. We'd love to have you on the show.

00:43:34.160 No pressure, but we'd like you guys to write memoirs.

00:43:36.600 That's our dream memoir.

00:43:37.900 Ooh, Katie Holmes would be so good.

00:43:40.100 Do you know, is she still in a relationship with Jamie Foxx?

00:43:42.560 No, I think they broke up.

00:43:43.920 Yeah.

00:43:44.220 That was before Emilio Bellotto, right?

00:43:47.260 I think so.

00:43:48.100 She was making out with that restaurateur a couple years ago.

00:43:50.800 My friend is actually, can I say something?

00:43:53.020 Please.

00:43:54.100 My friend is about to start working on a film that she wrote, directed, and is starring in.

00:43:59.320 So I guess that little Suri cruises off to college and Katie's making her comeback.

00:44:03.160 yes maybe she'll use this as the time to write a book yeah and then you all can talk about it 0.98

00:44:08.320 maybe she'll be a guest on your show who knows yeah maybe maybe she'll tell us how to fucking 1.00

00:44:13.420 tailor a cardigan because she knows it and i don't there's an example of a woman with a lot 1.00

00:44:17.980 of cashmere who's happy so i guess i can go either way where can folks listen to the podcast

00:44:23.440 check out the the show you all were doing follow you all that good stuff um we are on youtube

00:44:30.740 celebrity memoir book club spotify apple podcasts amazon first well memoir practice no it's true

00:44:38.560 we are on youtube i just love that we've never been youtube forward before and i love this new

00:44:43.860 change i'm changing i'm evolving i'm i'm trying to expand the brand i feel like youtube is really

00:44:50.560 where you got to be these days oh that's what they keep telling us same

00:44:54.380 this has been such a delight like you have no idea this like made my month my partner came down and

00:45:01.820 was like you're gonna talk to your favorite podcasters are you excited and I was like yes

00:45:05.320 I'm very excited but very nervous uh so thank you for doing this I really really appreciate it and

00:45:09.400 thank you for making the show it just like has given me so much so many hours of delight it got

00:45:15.160 me through the pandemic truly like one of my favorite podcasts around thank you so much I

00:45:20.500 I really appreciate it.

00:45:21.940 Thank you for having us.

00:45:23.020 This was so fun.

00:45:23.640 Yeah, this was so fun.

00:45:28.780 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech

00:45:30.800 or just want to say hi?

00:45:32.280 You can reach us at hello at tangody.com.

00:45:34.560 You can also find transcripts for today's episode

00:45:36.360 at tangody.com.

00:45:37.980 There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me,

00:45:39.840 Bridget Todd.

00:45:40.720 It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:45:43.440 Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

00:45:45.500 Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.

00:45:48.120 Michael Amato is our contributing producer.

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00:45:51.960 If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts.

00:45:55.760 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:46:13.000 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:46:19.020 Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:46:27.680 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

00:46:35.940 Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:46:37.700 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:46:43.100 I survived nine months in captivity

00:46:46.680 And I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them

00:46:51.960 I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are The Survivor Files

00:46:55.700 Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable

00:46:59.500 Abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced

00:47:03.440 These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive

00:47:07.020 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart

00:47:10.240 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

00:47:13.260 or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:47:17.220 Hey, this is Hayes Davenport.

00:47:19.100 And Sean Clemens.

00:47:20.300 We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.

00:47:22.460 Every episode, we're trying to help our guests

00:47:24.080 improve their careers by mainly focusing

00:47:25.840 on how they can help us improve our careers.

00:47:28.300 The show's famously super accessible,

00:47:29.860 so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes

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00:47:34.520 We recommend some of our recent episodes

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00:47:39.360 Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:47:45.540 I'm Nick Turturro.

00:47:46.560 You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's Black Klansman.

00:47:51.520 And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, I deliver pizza to a new guest.

00:47:56.580 I've shared a slice with everyone, from Seth Rollins.

00:47:59.240 What are you doing with my belt?

00:48:00.500 To Bill Burr.

00:48:01.380 I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am.

00:48:06.260 And now, we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Turturro.

00:48:11.140 It's called happiness.

00:48:12.220 Delivering happiness.

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00:48:14.760 Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, and listen now.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - July 22, 2025

The Twitter-to-Fame Pipeline of the 2010s (w⧸ Celebrity Memoir Book Club)

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