00:01:55.880It's already really easy for these communities and their voices to be overlooked unless we make a real point to do so.
00:02:03.260So it's already hard enough to make sure the experiences of marginalized people are not overlooked.
00:02:07.300But when you add in the ephemeral nature of the Internet, it becomes even less likely that these voices and their contributions and experiences will be chronicled.
00:02:16.640The Internet moves quickly. Tweets are scrubbed. Websites come down.
00:02:21.540who will remember what happens online if we don't do the work of archiving it and building monuments to it?
00:03:08.000So on this podcast, Internet Hate Machine, I'm trying to right that wrong.
00:03:12.780We'll be telling the stories of women who were harassed online, how it happened, why it happened, and what it all means for the rest of us.
00:03:20.000Because I think there is this real misconception about online harassment, that it is individual.
00:03:25.860You know, when you see someone being harassed on the internet, people think, wow, I wonder what she did to be deserving of that kind of treatment.
00:03:33.360Or they might think, whew, I am glad I am not her.
00:03:36.120But the truth is, harassment online isn't just individual. It's systemic and it's institutional.
00:03:42.560And even if we specifically are not the ones on the receiving end of it, it still has really big implications for all of us.
00:03:50.120The first time that I really saw this play out in real time was with former Saturday Night Live comedian Leslie Jones.
00:03:56.060And her story, which is one of the stories that we will talk about in depth this season, is one that really opened my eyes.
00:04:03.000So, Sophie, do you remember Leslie Jones? Do you know what happened with her?
00:04:06.020Yeah, Leslie Jen is one of the best performers on SNL and all time great, really just one of the funniest people ever who was kind of at the time, somebody who seemed to really have Twitter comedy down and was very much loved universally get absolutely harassed by the Internet, specifically by one guy who I recall saying.
00:04:36.020It stuck with me saying that trolling was important and that with like no remorse for the the things that he he did and I'm sure it continues to do to to people to this day.
00:04:53.060Well, absolutely. You are entirely correct.
00:04:55.500So in all of my research on the way that online harassment works, I've seen time and time again that Milo Yiannopoulos, former tech editor at Breitbart News and right-wing shithead, really ushered in that wave of trolling being seen as a form of activism in and of itself.
00:05:12.640Milo Yiannopoulos represents the tip of the iceberg in a rising tide of hate and abuse in social media, one he clearly sees as a noble purpose.
00:05:37.040And so he really ushered that in as like a vibe where people who were trolling in this way saw it as a form of activism and saw it as a way to reclaim and build political and social power online and cultural power online.
00:05:52.000And so Leslie Jones, I completely agree with you.
00:05:54.700She was all-time great on Saturday Night Live, and she was one of those sort of early celebrities who was good at Twitter, you know, that brand of celebrity.
00:06:03.800She was known for live-tweeting things like the Olympics or other big events, and everyone loved her, right?
00:06:12.540Her tweets, live-tweeting events would be, you know, chronicled in those BuzzFeed, listicles, like, oh, 30 of Leslie Jones' best tweets about the Olympics, things like that.
00:06:22.600It was very of an era, I guess I'll put it that way.
00:06:25.580And so her tweeting, her use of the platform Twitter really got great press for Twitter as a platform, right?
00:06:32.360Like so many articles were spotlighting the way that she had really used the platform to create her brand.
00:06:39.900You know, she was like winning Twitter.
00:06:43.200And I feel like at the time, Twitter wasn't having as much of a moment as some of the other social media apps.
00:06:50.560and the content and discourse happening on Twitter
00:07:27.400And, you know, I think that's one of the things that makes stories like Leslie so infuriating is that platforms owe a huge financial debt to Black women and Black folks showing up on their platform and making it someplace people want to be.
00:07:41.860And so then to turn around and not really take it seriously when those same voices are threatened and harassed and abused on their platform is a real problem for me.
00:07:52.980It really illustrates a disconnect that I think that tech leaders have where they are not actually making policies that keep the people that make their platforms great.
00:08:02.640They're actually not making policies that then allow for those people to show up safely on their platforms.
00:08:07.280And so Leslie Jones, when she was cast in the all-female reboot of Ghostbusters, was the target of a really nasty harassment campaign by Milo.
00:08:17.400And it got so bad that eventually she left the platform.
00:08:21.460After she left, Jack Dorsey, the then CEO of Twitter, personally intervened.
00:08:26.260He kicked Milo off the platform and welcomed her back, which, you know, that's great.
00:08:31.340I'm glad that he did that, but I don't think that you should have to be a celebrity with
00:08:36.440those kinds of connections in order to get a platform like Twitter to take it seriously
00:08:40.580when you're being harassed in this way.
00:08:42.660As you might know, Milo got his start at Breitbart News, which was co-founded by Steve
00:11:29.420If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:11:35.380This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,
00:11:41.780pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:11:47.020I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:11:54.940I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed.
00:11:58.520From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:12:04.860It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:12:11.920Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:12:21.540Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:12:33.380So there are a couple of reasons I think that I could always feel this, but could never really put a name on it.
00:12:39.180One is the nature of the internet itself.
00:12:41.060You know, things move quickly on the Internet, and there's not exactly room or time for things like moratoriums or lookbacks to really take an accounting of what happened and why.
00:12:51.280When something happens online, we all just kind of move on and forget about it.
00:12:55.540It creates a situation where things can happen again and again and again and again.
00:13:00.180Two is just good old-fashioned racism and sexism.
00:13:06.060The most disrespected person in America is the Black woman.1.00
00:13:08.960The most unprotected person in America is the Black woman.1.00
00:13:12.120The most neglected person in America is the Black woman.
00:13:15.160And the experiences that we have online as Black women and the way people respond to them or don't respond to them really shows that Malcolm X knew what he was talking about way back when in 1964.
00:13:26.700I've spent most of my career doing research into the ways that marginalized people show up on the Internet and social media.
00:13:32.520And the research is super clear that Black women are disproportionately targeted for things like online harassment, online abuse, threats, and disinformation online.1.00
00:13:42.260You know, I take no pleasure in saying this, but it is the truth.1.00
00:13:46.660Nobody, and by nobody I mean nobody with power, really cares about Black women like that.0.99
00:13:53.040When harm happens to Black women, it is just overlooked.0.84
00:13:55.940This is not just true on the internet, it's also true in the real world too.
00:13:59.660And it feeds into the problem because bad actors, people out there who want to cause harm to others, they know this.
00:14:07.100They know that they can target Black women, test out and refine and perfect their tactics on Black women.
00:14:12.720And if those women do speak up, nobody with power will really listen or take it seriously.0.93
00:14:18.420We've seen this play out time and time again.
00:14:21.480For instance, I think most people who are online have heard of Gamergate.
00:14:33.820If you haven't heard of Gamergate, I want your life.
00:14:36.500I wish I could have a life that resembles yours.
00:14:38.780But I would say that most people on the internet or who were on the internet around the time that happened are familiar with it.
00:14:45.180So for folks who don't know what that is, it was a time where mostly men online horribly harassed mostly women online under the guise of being big mad about ethics in gaming journalism.
00:14:56.760And it got lots of attention, lots of press.
00:14:59.760You know, I think most people can probably remember it.
00:15:01.880But how many of those same people know that the same folks responsible for Gamergate were using those exact same tactics on Black women years before Gamergate?
00:15:10.420Women like Adria Richards, who was targeted for racist harassment online after she tweeted about not really liking a crass joke that she overheard about dongles while she was at a work event.
00:15:22.760And it was something that I think that people might not even remember.
00:15:25.760Remember, you know, I did an interview with this researcher, Shereen Mitchell, and during our interview, she was like, most people know about Gamergate. Nobody talks about Donglegate. Here's a bit of my conversation with researcher Shereen Mitchell.
00:15:39.220So I want to talk a bit, you mentioned this, like preparing women and girls for this moment that we're in now. I want to talk about that moment, particularly as it pertains to things like disinformation. How are you seeing disinformation impact women online, specifically Black women and women of color? How are you seeing it play out?
00:15:56.220Yes, absolutely. And you and I know about women like Shafika Huston and Anissa Crockett, who basically helped to identify, you know, fake accounts pertaining to be black women.
00:16:07.980Now, I was also looking at that as well as looking at Donglegate.
00:16:11.200And so I want to make sure I mark Donglegate here, because when people started worrying about online harassment, they started worrying about it when it was Gamergate and the media got hold of it.
00:16:19.800Before Gamergate was Donglegate. So I follow the whole storyline about this black woman who I happen to know who was speaking up about sexism in the tech industry, and she had coordinated attacks against her.
00:16:33.320That was the first moment after our first survey that I realized that not only would coordinated attacks happen, but people would defend those who are attacking her, including people who write books about her and basically say that she was the most egregious in her behavior, that calling out sexism and racism was egregious.
00:16:55.340And I was like, Dongle Gay, what is she talking about?
00:16:57.440And even me as somebody who is like pretty online, I had forgotten that I had witnessed
00:17:02.840that go down and I didn't even contextualize it within a larger context of the conversation
00:17:34.420And I think maybe one other person on our team knew what that was.
00:17:39.220And I would say that, you know, the Cool Zone media team are people who are highly online and should know about this.
00:17:46.900And yet it's just another thing that we've overlooked in this systemic issue.
00:17:52.020Exactly. And I think it feeds into how bad the issue is because, you know, tech reporters and folks at places like Wired, I really like a lot of their journalism.
00:18:05.080But frankly, a lot of the people making content about the Internet just don't necessarily have the range to really get into the nitty gritty of the intersection of race and gender and identity that you would need to really fully account for what happened in these stories.
00:18:22.660I just think people don't have the range.
00:18:24.140If you've an incredibly white newsroom or an incredibly white team, it might be difficult to really get into the intersections and the complexities of how these issues actually do play out.
00:18:33.600And so they go overlooked and we're not really able to learn from them or prepare for them or take much away from them.
00:18:40.140Another good example would be Shafika Hudson, who in 2014 actually reported and called out bad actors using fake accounts to impersonate Black women to destabilize Internet communities.
00:18:51.440The women who were at the heart of that being targeted, they spoke up, they reported these things to Twitter and they were basically ignored.
00:18:57.860So why didn't that get the same amount of coverage or recognition as something like Gamergate?
00:19:01.520And if it had, maybe somebody with power might have listened and taken it seriously.
00:19:07.180And I think maybe things would be different now.
00:19:10.120You know, for one, Gamergate might have gone down a little bit differently.
00:19:13.780Or consider the fact that six years after Shafika Hudson was reporting people impersonating Black folks on Twitter to cause chaos,
00:19:21.220white supremacist groups used that very same tactic during the racial justice uprisings of 2020
00:19:26.600to make it seem as though Black activists were calling for people to loot homes and cause
00:19:31.360violence on the street. Twitter confirmed this. Twitter confirmed that white supremacist groups0.88
00:19:35.860were impersonating Black people on Twitter. They did not, though, explain why, if they knew this
00:19:41.040was a tactic years earlier that was being used to destabilize their platforms, why they did fuck
00:19:46.360all to prevent it and did nothing to prevent it from happening at a larger scale down the line.
00:19:51.280And zooming out even further, these tactics went on to be the very same tactics that bad actors
00:19:56.260used to try to destabilize our elections and democracy. A Senate inquiry confirmed in 2019
00:20:01.420that that same tactic, impersonating Black people on social media, was used by Russian assets in an
00:20:06.860attempt to spread distrust during the 2016 election, posing as Black Lives Matter activists
00:20:11.800or like Black groups on social media accounts online. Bad actors tried to inflame anger around
00:20:16.760things like police brutality in the lead up to the 2016 election. And the inquiry found that no
00:20:21.980bigger group was targeted more than Black folks online. And they were trying to use drumming up1.00
00:20:27.180all of this chaos and anger as a means of either getting Black folks to vote for Donald Trump
00:20:31.860or to just stay home on election day. And again, had someone with power actually listened when0.89
00:20:39.340these Black women years prior were speaking up about what they experienced, maybe things would0.65
00:20:44.860be different, but they were ignored. I think that not listening to Black women when we speak up0.85
00:20:50.940about our experiences online, has big consequences,
00:20:54.540not just for the women who are targeted, but for all of us.
00:20:57.760Because when you zoom out even further,
00:20:59.500we're seeing tried and true tactics of online harassment
00:21:02.460become an animating feature in our political landscape and discourse.
00:23:38.440Let's not just move on from it, as I know that we're so apt to do on the Internet.
00:23:42.760Let's examine it so we can learn from it.
00:23:45.320So on this season of Internet Hate Machine, we'll be exploring how online violence and harassment has led us to this political and social moment that we're in.
00:23:53.160And don't worry, we'll also be diving into what can be done about it.
00:23:57.340And I know it's going to be a wild ride, but I hope that all of y'all are down to take this ride with me.
00:24:05.640Internet Hate Machine is a production of Cool Zone Media.
00:24:08.700For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, check out our website, coolzonemedia.com,
00:24:13.300or find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.