There Are No Girls on the Internet - What’s fueling the moral panic around TikTok challenges？ In part, Facebook.

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00:01:33.960 briefly mentions both suicide and sexual assault. What you'll notice with a lot of the challenges

00:01:39.540 is that they tend to, on some level, usually focus on an issue that we are, as a society,

00:01:47.240 feeling a lot of anxiety about sexual assault, school shootings, suicide and mental health,

00:01:53.220 assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are anxieties that we as a society have.

00:02:03.140 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.

00:02:11.260 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:02:14.020 national slap a teacher day national school shooting day the blackout challenge you've

00:02:23.280 probably heard of these challenges that supposedly originate on tiktok encouraging young people to

00:02:27.800 harm themselves others or spread panic about harm being done to them but what's behind these

00:02:34.380 challenges and what happens when concern around social media platforms like tiktok

00:02:38.660 turns into a moral panic around technology.

00:02:42.660 To find out more, I turned to friend of the show, Abby Richards.

00:02:46.180 Well, Abby, it is so nice to have you back.

00:02:48.480 You are a friend of the show.

00:02:50.480 We love being able to talk to you.

00:02:52.820 For folks who may not be familiar with you, tell us who you are.

00:02:57.160 Yeah, my name is Abby Richards,

00:02:58.420 and I'm an independent mis- and disinformation researcher who focuses on TikTok.

00:03:02.280 You are someone I know that I can always count on for like a sobering, kind of like clear-headed breakdown of what's happening on TikTok, which I think is so important because the platform can be so, it can just be information overload coming at you all the time, you know?

00:03:21.000 So it's like nice to have someone who can actually wade through it and break it down.

00:03:24.680 I am relieved to hear that you feel like I am clear-headed.

00:03:28.980 i don't necessarily i look at tiktok and it's just so vast and huge that even as someone who

00:03:37.100 studies it professionally sometimes i'm like i don't have a full understanding i'll never have

00:03:41.320 a full understanding of this chaotic mess of an app that we have to deal with and all of its

00:03:48.140 beauties and downfalls and little niche cultures um but i try my best so i appreciate that i think

00:03:55.740 you do a great job. Actually, that's like a great place to start, which is that you really like TikTok

00:04:00.920 is your platform. It's the platform that you study professionally in terms of disinformation

00:04:05.820 research. And it's also where you make a lot of your content educating folks about disinformation

00:04:10.140 and conspiracy theories. But you're also someone who is pretty honest about some of the dangers

00:04:16.320 and downfalls inherent in the app. What is that like to sort of have this platform that is in

00:04:22.480 some ways so rich and allows you to tell stories and reach people and educate folks in such

00:04:27.440 interesting ways. But on the other hand, does have its flaws, should be looked at with a little bit

00:04:32.260 of scrutiny like any other platform. It's a love-hate relationship. I mean, I'm the first

00:04:42.620 to admit that I benefit from TikTok. I mean, I have a platform there. I've found that it's been

00:04:47.340 an incredibly useful tool in educating people and creating resources where people can go

00:04:52.780 to learn about these very complex issues. There is room for nuance on TikTok, and there is room

00:04:59.340 for learning on TikTok. But that is not to say that it has no pitfalls whatsoever. There are

00:05:07.240 so many strengths that TikTok offers as far as communication and education and community building.

00:05:12.620 And then there's also so many weaknesses when it comes to how the algorithm chooses for you what you see and the types of content that go viral the most easily and the types of rhetoric that it encourages.

00:05:29.620 So I see both sides of the coin.

00:05:32.340 The ubiquity of social media platforms like TikTok have given rise to panics around so-called challenges and trends.

00:05:39.040 Trends that stoke fear in young people and their parents.

00:05:42.340 Now, this kind of thing is nothing new.

00:05:44.220 When I was a kid, we grew up freaked out about things like razor blades and Halloween candy

00:05:47.900 or gang members flashing their headlights to mark you for an attack.

00:05:52.260 But with the rise of social media, these kinds of trends can spread much more quickly

00:05:56.140 than they ever could just being whispered about in the cafeteria.

00:05:59.540 In April of last year, I saw videos circulate on TikTok

00:06:02.860 responding to videos calling a day in April National Rape Day.

00:06:07.860 Basically, everyone was upset and panicked about alleged videos declaring that on this day, rape was legal.

00:06:15.040 Only a TikTok spokesperson said that no such video ever really existed.

00:06:20.300 There were only users making videos responding with decrying National Rape Day or sharing warnings and tips on how to stay safe.

00:06:28.100 And in responding, they were only legitimizing this hoax.

00:06:32.120 From kids being kept home from school to wasting law enforcement's time and resources,

00:06:37.660 panic around these challenges that start online can create real-world disruptions.

00:06:42.620 I know the very first time I ever encountered a sort of dubious, quote-unquote, challenge or thing on TikTok,

00:06:52.000 I think it was National Rape Day. 0.93

00:06:55.660 That was going to be my guess. 0.71

00:06:57.240 Yeah, that was the first time. 0.71

00:06:58.460 And, you know, I work for a gender justice organization, so when I saw that,

00:07:01.480 And my first instinct was, this is horrible. We need to reach out to TikTok. We need to make sure that, you know, they take this down. They need to know about this. But then, you know, looking at it, it was a situation where I almost kind of got a little bit duped by something that maybe wasn't a legitimate, organically grown, quote unquote, challenge or day or, you know, content stream on the platform.

00:07:26.500 But I, like, in talking about it, was sort of helping to legitimize it, helping to make it something that maybe felt like a legitimate thing, even though it wasn't.

00:07:36.660 Yeah. National Rape Day, for those who don't know, it was allegedly April 24th. And the idea going around was that there was some group of essentially evil men out in a group chat somewhere planning to all go out and rape on that.

00:07:56.360 I believe it was a Saturday, uh, April 24th. And aside from the fact that that is really just not

00:08:05.560 at all how sexual assault works and is, is not how it's perpetrated against victims. Um,

00:08:14.180 it was also something that we really just awareness videoed into existence.

00:08:20.600 there was no evidence of this initial threat at all but because everybody went oh well it might

00:08:29.200 be a threat it might be a problem might be a problem then they all start turning around and

00:08:33.360 sharing it everywhere just as a warning and then we end up in a position where millions and millions

00:08:38.960 of people felt afraid for their lives that day like people didn't leave the house

00:08:44.240 And we saw the same thing just happen all over again just a few months ago with the National School Shooting Day, where tons of kids were then absent from school because of a threat that no one could ever even find.

00:08:57.880 yeah i mean i i national school shooting day i saw that on my local news like that

00:09:04.780 like was as you said like awarenessed quote unquote into existence and i think you're

00:09:10.560 absolutely right that i imagine that for some of the people who are sharing this they're doing it

00:09:15.840 out of genuine concern for wanting to keep people safe but maybe it's difficult to see that in doing

00:09:22.240 that you're actually helping to create more of a panic that wouldn't be there otherwise i do think

00:09:27.420 that it's like people just out of an abundance of caution trying to raise awareness, but not

00:09:31.800 realizing that if we all collectively do that, A, it spreads panic and B, it can be incredibly

00:09:37.620 disruptive, right? Like if everybody keeps their kids home from school because they're afraid of

00:09:42.200 this national school shooting day that they saw on television, that's incredibly disruptive for

00:09:46.800 the school day. And, you know, we should really give pause to the fact that platforms like TikTok

00:09:52.880 can be this force where you can have these real-world disruptions just from something

00:09:59.840 that starts as a rumor or a fabrication? Yeah, absolutely. I think the disruptions

00:10:06.720 are worth accounting for when we create panic. And also, the way that they tend to

00:10:15.340 perpetuate our misconceptions about oftentimes violence and mental health. What you'll notice

00:10:22.240 with a lot of the challenges is that they tend to, on some level, usually focus on an issue that we

00:10:29.620 are, as a society, feeling a lot of anxiety about. Sexual assault, school shootings, suicide and

00:10:36.000 mental health, assaulting teachers. Those sorts of things are anxieties that we, as a society,

00:10:41.500 have and we need to be doing a lot of work to address those like major large enormous issues

00:10:52.220 and then this challenge comes along and what an easy and simple answer it provides of like oh

00:10:58.380 they're just doing this because they saw a tiktok about it it's it's it's not a massive societal

00:11:03.660 problem that's been around for years and has existed long before the emergence of social

00:11:09.660 media. No, this is because of kids these days on social media. Oh, it's so true. And I think

00:11:15.560 especially when you look at the fact that so many of these challenges are localized around youth or

00:11:21.140 schools, I think we're in this moment where we're, as you said, having this national existential

00:11:27.940 crisis of what's happening in our schools, where people are really stoking a lot of panic around

00:11:35.200 it. I'm sure that it's probably not a super fun time to be a public school educator right now.

00:11:40.520 And I think it's no wonder why we're seeing all of these challenges purport to

00:11:44.340 be localized around something happening at schools because it's an anxiety that we're

00:11:49.500 not really talking honestly or thoughtfully about in other kinds of discourse. And so this

00:11:56.120 very simplistic thing of like, oh, it's the kids on those phones. She's always on that phone. That's

00:12:00.820 what's happening. It's such a simple way to talk about something that is sometimes big and scary

00:12:05.700 and complex to talk about. Yeah, it really offers a very similar thing to a conspiracy theory.

00:12:12.160 You take a big problem, something like, for instance, the assaulting of teachers while

00:12:17.760 they're working, which should not be happening under any circumstances. They are teachers.

00:12:22.400 They should not be assaulted. But they are like they do face violence in their classrooms. And

00:12:28.360 And then we say, oh, well, it's part of this TikTok challenge. It's slap a teacher month challenge. And that doesn't actually help teachers to stay safe because we're not addressing any of the actual issues that have led to them having to work in an unsafe environment. We're just pointing a finger at a social media trend that we can't even find.

00:12:54.480 Yeah, I mean, and that's such a good segue into how this conversation so I learned about these fake challenges from from following you, then I got this. Yeah, I mean, I guess I would say I almost learned how to like self regulate around them that like, it's entirely possible that it's just a fabrication and that in amplifying it, I am helping it grow like it kind of like, inspired me to take a moment to think through the implications.

00:13:23.900 Because, yeah, that National Rape Day thing, like, I was moved by that.

00:13:28.720 But your work really helped me put it in perspective, I guess I'll say.

00:13:33.320 Well, thank you.

00:13:34.200 That means a lot.

00:13:35.340 That whole week, like, really is what ended up, I was already doing a lot of TikTok misinformation

00:13:40.240 research, but it really ended up pushing me full time because me and my coworker, Olivia,

00:13:45.720 were so stressed at having to watch millions of people believe something that there was no reason

00:13:55.160 for them to be panicking over. And I mean, there was also just so much uncritical news coverage

00:14:01.020 of it. And that is a huge part of the problem is uncritical news coverage and law enforcement.

00:14:06.560 And sometimes when they're involved, school boards as well, amplifying these without evidence.

00:14:11.360 Ooh, let's talk about that because, you know, I mentioned that I saw in my local news a segment about school shooting day. What do you think the role of local, especially local news media is in spreading these kinds of dubious challenges? Like when they just sort of uncritically report on it, you know, maybe like they almost never include someone saying, actually, we have no evidence that this is actually a real thing.

00:14:36.720 It's just this sort of uncritically, like, here's what people are upset about.

00:14:40.340 We don't know.

00:14:41.260 In what role do you think that news media plays in helping these panics spread?

00:14:45.420 I mean, they really help to start lighting the fire, especially when it comes to, like,

00:14:50.900 if the thing is just on TikTok right now, when it comes to getting adults involved in

00:14:56.680 the conversation and the parents involved and law enforcement involved and start getting

00:15:01.240 it uh that information outside of just a single echo chamber and really spreading into other

00:15:08.680 ecosystems i think local news plays a huge role in that and one of the tactics as you kind of said

00:15:14.860 but like one of the tactics they use and we also see some clickbait stories is that they don't say

00:15:21.720 like there is a hoax happening on tiktok and we can't find evidence for it they just say tiktok

00:15:28.400 is full of claims saying that April 24th is National Rape Day. That's the headline. A lot

00:15:36.180 of people aren't even going to read the story, even if they did include a disclaimer that there's

00:15:40.760 no evidence of this. But the whole story just relies on, well, people on TikTok are saying

00:15:47.140 this. It's like, can you please fact check it? Critical coverage, please.

00:15:53.260 And that should be the bare minimum, right? I think about that quote. I'm sure I'm going to

00:15:57.880 butcher it because i'm awful at quotes but um what is it's not a reporter's job if if someone

00:16:03.080 says it's raining it's a reporter's job to look out the window and like determine if that is true

00:16:06.760 not just print that somebody said it's raining and i i guess i i wish that that local media

00:16:12.480 did not all media but i guess i see local media really as a you know culprit here i wish they

00:16:19.180 would do a little bit better of a job and i wish you know oftentimes these stories they rely on

00:16:24.140 law enforcement and it'll be it'll be like maybe somebody contacted law enforcement and it'll be

00:16:31.520 like they'll report it as law enforcement is aware of the situation and by including that

00:16:37.220 it adds no further you know fact check of what's going on but I do think it adds a level of like

00:16:44.560 well of legitimacy well it's like oh well law enforcement is aware of the situation

00:16:47.640 it could be that law enforcement has no has not been able to verify any of these these claims as

00:16:53.120 fact, but they don't really say that. The way that they use law enforcement sometimes

00:16:57.920 is incredibly damaging, I think, to the truth. Yeah. Oh, you'll see them insert a Facebook post

00:17:03.980 or a tweet from some police department somewhere. And that gives legitimacy to the claim too,

00:17:17.160 because the police department addressed it via social media, and now they can hyperlink that

00:17:21.500 in their stories. And I say this also coming from, I have a deep love for local journalism.

00:17:30.060 I grew up with a mother who was the editor of our local town newspaper and was always hanging

00:17:37.000 out in the office. Like, I love, like, yes, give me more small town journalism. I think a lot of

00:17:43.560 the problem stems from when we aren't funding it and we don't give it the credit it deserves so

00:17:47.840 that they are encouraged to just write cheap stories like this.

00:17:50.940 They don't have the time to actually give it the due diligence that it deserves.

00:17:57.600 Yeah, I'm so glad that you mentioned that,

00:17:59.140 because I do think it's an issue of like underserving local media.

00:18:04.420 And we do have like a critical crisis in this country of just the decimation of local,

00:18:11.280 especially journalism and media.

00:18:13.220 And that's so important.

00:18:14.660 Like, that's how you find out what's going on in your kid's school.

00:18:16.900 That's how you find out like what's happening in your neighborhood, like on your block.

00:18:21.300 And so the way that we've just underserved it and undersupported it is horrible.

00:18:27.400 But I also think a real is really indicated by what we're talking about today that, you know, you put you put up a quick, cheap story that doesn't really get the facts, but does get people panicked and upset.

00:18:37.180 Like, I get it.

00:18:38.960 Yeah.

00:18:39.680 In this capitalist economy, I totally get it.

00:18:42.840 Let's take a quick break.

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00:19:43.660 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:19:49.120 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

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00:21:50.100 Who's to blame for the panic around TikTok challenges?

00:21:53.560 Well, unsurprisingly, partially Facebook.

00:21:56.840 Last month, The Washington Post reported that Facebook and TikTok were in what they called a bare-knuckle fight for younger users.

00:22:04.320 Facebook hired Targeted Victory, one of the country's largest Republican consulting firms,

00:22:09.020 to orchestrate a nationwide campaign to turn the public against TikTok.

00:22:14.040 The Post published a series of damning emails about how Targeted Victory, working on behalf of Facebook,

00:22:19.640 tried to stoke controversy around TikTok

00:22:22.300 by placing op-eds critical of TikTok in newspapers in major news markets

00:22:26.880 and stoking anger around so-called dangerous TikTok challenges and trends,

00:22:32.820 writing,

00:22:33.700 Targeted Victory urged partners to push stories to local media,

00:22:37.320 tying TikTok to dangerous teen trends

00:22:39.480 in an effort to show the app's purported harms.

00:22:42.360 Any local examples of bad TikTok trends or stories in your markets?

00:22:46.780 A Targeted Victory staffer asked.

00:22:49.120 Dream would be to get stories with headlines like

00:22:51.420 From Dances to Danger,

00:22:53.800 how TikTok has become the most harmful social media space for kids,

00:22:57.800 the staffer wrote.

00:22:59.240 They even circulated a Google Doc called Bad TikTok Clips,

00:23:03.340 with links to pretty dubious local news stories

00:23:05.940 that cite TikTok as the origin of dangerous teen trends,

00:23:10.180 despite the fact that some of those trends actually originated on Facebook.

00:23:14.460 Now, I hate this tactic,

00:23:16.040 because essentially it's Facebook intentionally trying to stoke fear and panic for their own corporate interests

00:23:22.580 in a way that takes attention away from actual social media issues that really do need scrutiny.

00:23:28.320 So I have to ask, I mean, I, in the reporting from The Washington Post,

00:23:33.160 I was, I guess, a little surprised to see that so many of these TikTok stories,

00:23:40.080 these negative sort of so-called challenges and things,

00:23:42.200 were actually being planted by Facebook slash Meta's PR firm, Targeted Victory, where they

00:23:49.920 were getting folks to write op-eds in important congressional districts about the dangers of

00:23:55.160 TikTok on youth, how they would get local media to run these stories of these dangerous

00:24:00.940 so-called challenges, when in fact there was a lot of evidence that some of these challenges

00:24:04.260 actually, if they started anywhere, that like the rumor maybe started on Facebook to begin

00:24:09.320 with, yet Facebook is really invested in making TikTok look bad. You know, it's one of those

00:24:15.540 things where it's like my least favorite story in all of tech journalism to cover is like two

00:24:19.640 big companies going at it. But it does seem to be there's some level of that here, yeah?

00:24:24.800 Yeah, I mean, and I can understand why Facebook, I'm so sorry, meta,

00:24:29.380 feels threatened by TikTok. I mean, they're like the most downloaded app for the last three years

00:24:36.940 running. They're clearly offering something that people enjoy and are arguably addicted to. I feel

00:24:44.940 like I might be a bit addicted to it. And, you know, young people are gravitating towards it.

00:24:52.440 So I understand why they would take that approach in trying to smear it in the public's eye as some

00:25:00.460 dangerous threat. I don't think that they're entirely wrong. I think that there's a lot of

00:25:07.500 issues with all different social media platforms. It's just dangerous that TikTok isn't challenges

00:25:13.340 that nobody is doing. Yeah. I mean, in some ways, do you think that in inflating some of these

00:25:23.560 nonsense dangers that they say are on the platform of TikTok, we're actually overlooking

00:25:30.120 some of the legitimate dangers that could be on platforms all social media platforms but tiktok

00:25:35.340 especially like you know there are so many things that happen on tiktok where i'm like well that's

00:25:39.240 probably not great like young people over young people trying to diagnose themselves with mental

00:25:45.020 issues and then you know companies that sell like private companies that sell medication for those

00:25:50.820 issues advertising to them on the platform like there are all kinds of legitimate tiktok is its own

00:25:56.840 can of worms. Yeah. And so I think like there are legitimate things to be concerned about.

00:26:06.560 And I think when we allow for the conversation to be dominated by things that are just nonsense,

00:26:11.820 we're not talking about the things that are legitimate concerns.

00:26:15.520 Yeah. Like I've done research into how engaging exclusively with transphobic content on TikTok

00:26:22.180 pushes a user into this far right rabbit hole where they're also exposed to, first of all,

00:26:28.140 more transphobia, but also homophobia and misogyny and racism and white supremacy and

00:26:34.000 anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories and calls to violence. Like all of those things can also

00:26:39.340 be found on TikTok. And I think that the ideas that TikTok is able to place in your brain are

00:26:45.180 are probably more dangerous than challenges that it is supposedly encouraging you to do.

00:26:53.980 That's at least how I interpret it. It's like the way that it impacts our society at large and what

00:26:59.680 we believe and how we approach our beliefs, that has way more significance than whether or not

00:27:08.820 kids are holding their breath for as long as possible yeah it's i mean i'm definitely addicted

00:27:15.480 to tiktok dude i i i wish i didn't have to say this but like i'm on it way too much i don't make

00:27:21.540 tiktoks myself but i can scroll for hours and hours and it is true that like i i'm i'm an adult

00:27:29.820 so like my brain is fully formed and when i see things or i'm like well that doesn't sound right

00:27:35.200 or like this seems to be pushing a dangerous narrative

00:27:37.500 or a narrative that we should at least be concerned about.

00:27:40.300 I'm able to just scroll up and know that.

00:27:43.380 But I wonder with such a young user base,

00:27:46.180 if young people were seeing that same thing that I'm seeing,

00:27:48.880 that I'm, you know, old enough to be like,

00:27:50.360 okay, well, this is obviously not true.

00:27:51.680 We're like, this is dangerous.

00:27:53.580 That's not some kind of,

00:27:54.600 that's not a narrative I want to engage with further.

00:27:56.460 I wonder like, yeah, what it, 0.58

00:27:58.100 like what dangerous things are young people

00:28:01.040 being exposed to and steeped in

00:28:03.460 and thus being walking down on a line of engagement

00:28:05.900 to sort of get further into.

00:28:07.660 You know, those are all legitimate questions

00:28:09.080 about what's happening on TikTok.

00:28:10.780 Yeah, absolutely.

00:28:11.720 I mean, when you think about like

00:28:12.740 how popular conspiracy theories are on TikTok

00:28:15.000 and how conspiracy theories,

00:28:17.100 if we stop looking at them as individuals,

00:28:19.360 we look at them as a way to think about the world

00:28:23.200 and how if you engage with one conspiracy theory video,

00:28:26.620 you're more likely to then be like

00:28:28.020 given more conspiracy theory videos.

00:28:30.540 And it's not just teaching you that conspiracy theory,

00:28:32.640 It's teaching you how to think about the world in that way. And that's not helpful for building, you know, a society full of engaged political citizens who want to make the world better because, you know, conspiracy theories fundamentally just push you to be less politically active and, you know, not really want to solve problems, just blame an out group for them.

00:28:57.800 so I worry about like that when it comes to how it teaches younger people to think

00:29:02.520 yeah that's a really really good point and I would say sort of on the flip side of that

00:29:08.180 one thing I one narrative I've seen on TikTok a lot that's really being driven by young people

00:29:13.040 that I chef kiss love this idea of pushing back on climate doomism that I like the young people

00:29:21.960 on TikTok pulled me out of the, like, I'm not even going to say a conspiracy. Like, I formally

00:29:28.680 believed that it was too late to act on climate. And I now have come to see, thanks to young people

00:29:35.160 on TikTok, that I was actually guilty of almost kind of like a different kind of climate

00:29:41.860 disinformation, right? Because like, the same way that it's climate disinformation to say that

00:29:46.360 climate change is a hoax, it's also not necessarily true that it's too late, we can't do anything.

00:29:51.300 And I think that, like, the way that folks have used that platform to push back against that idea has completely brought me back from the brink in a way that I didn't know I was at.

00:30:01.060 I am so happy to hear you say that because that has been a huge thing that we've been pushing for at EcoTalk and getting creators to push that sort of messaging because you're right.

00:30:10.820 It is, you know, there's several different types of climate change disinformation.

00:30:15.860 there is denialism there's also distraction and delay tactics but there's also doomism and when

00:30:23.120 you start thinking about climate change with the framework that it's too late to do anything

00:30:29.180 then you start going well why bother and fossil fuel companies are gonna absolutely love that

00:30:34.740 that works that plays right into their hands because if if it doesn't matter then like why

00:30:38.760 not just keep doing all the fossil fuel burning anyways yeah it's such a good point that like

00:30:44.760 And it does remind me a lot of what you said about conspiracy theories. Giving into them makes it okay to not act. It makes you less engaged, not more engaged. And that particular mistruth around climate, climate doomism, gave me the license to not act for a while.

00:31:04.760 And I'm so glad that you and folks at EcoTalk are really doing a lot of work to change the conversation.

00:31:12.640 Because if you give in to the reality that, like, it's not too late, there is still time, we could be doing so much, that is what gets you in a headspace to be motivated to act and to lean in and to check in, not disengage.

00:31:28.520 Absolutely.

00:31:28.900 And I see that sort of that narrative being applied to other realms as well, like, you know, not giving up in the fight for reproductive rights and not giving up in the fight for racial equality.

00:31:46.860 um i think that we see a lot of that pushback on tiktok it is a good space for that and that's

00:31:54.720 again like we're back in this position of like oh god there's so many goods happening on that app

00:31:59.520 and there's so many bads and i guess it's just kind of a microcosm of the world in general

00:32:05.100 more after a quick break

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00:33:04.660 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:33:10.580 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:33:16.960 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:33:20.660 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:33:26.080 shut up, don't say anything.

00:33:28.740 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:33:33.280 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:33:37.840 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:33:45.300 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:33:49.240 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:33:52.680 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:33:55.820 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:34:04.780 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:34:10.700 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:34:23.180 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:34:26.880 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

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00:35:38.260 Let's get right back into it.

00:35:40.060 When people give in to things like moral panics, conspiracy theories, and conspiratorial thinking,

00:35:44.940 it actually encourages us to check out.

00:35:47.180 It provides a seductive reason to just stop caring because you don't really feel like anything that you could possibly do would actually make a difference if you've already lost.

00:35:55.640 You mentioned reproductive rights.

00:35:57.680 It's so interesting.

00:35:59.140 The day that that leaked draft of the Supreme Court opinion came down, almost immediately, you know, all of the reproductive rights disinformation folks I know circled the wagons.

00:36:10.960 And the number one narrative that we saw almost immediately was abortion is illegal starting.

00:36:18.280 This means abortion is illegal starting now, starting today.

00:36:21.020 And that's not true.

00:36:22.240 You know, that was just a draft decision.

00:36:23.580 Who knows what's going to happen?

00:36:25.000 But it's so interesting that the piece of disinformation, misinformation that circulated

00:36:29.920 instantaneously was that abortion is now illegal in the United States.

00:36:33.500 And how if you were someone who had an appointment to get an abortion the next day, you might

00:36:38.640 be motivated to stay home.

00:36:39.660 We might be motivated to say like, OK, well, I guess that means I no longer have this appointment or I guess that means that I'm out of options.

00:36:46.140 And I'm sure that people who want to criminalize abortion in this country would love it if that's how you felt, because it's going to, you know, keep you from exercising your constitutionally protected rights to an abortion.

00:36:59.600 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, getting people to give up and not fight back does make their job, whatever they're trying to push for, it does make it a lot easier.

00:37:11.460 That is so true. You know, one of my last questions for you. One of the things I in the Washington Post reporting about TikTok and Meta, it seems like young people done with Facebook.

00:37:23.500 you know I can't say that I blame anybody for just being done with the done with you know the

00:37:29.100 platform why do you think that is why do you think you know they're just flocking from from

00:37:34.640 Facebook onto other platforms like TikTok oh god I think there's so many factors and I would need

00:37:41.660 a lot of data to like back up any hard claims that I made I still see some some young people

00:37:48.400 using Instagram but not so much like really nobody is using Facebook and I think it probably

00:37:56.880 speaks to like the ways that we use social media either as entertainment or as communication

00:38:04.180 and how that's shifting like Facebook was originally built for keeping up with your

00:38:11.600 friends and then kind of added in pages and sharing and it's it's more about that network

00:38:16.880 with this larger group that you've created,

00:38:20.460 whereas something like TikTok is more personalized feed

00:38:23.860 that gives you what you're interested in.

00:38:27.820 And then you can share that with your friends if you want,

00:38:30.560 but I think it's just more personalized

00:38:32.840 and it just meets a different need.

00:38:38.360 Yeah, I think you're onto something.

00:38:40.880 I know for me, Facebook, and to a lesser extent Instagram,

00:38:44.320 but a little bit as well,

00:38:45.280 it just feels very scammy now it just feels like it's full of ads for products that maybe are not

00:38:52.760 super legit I got totally suckered by a Facebook ad to buy this purse and I kept seeing these ads

00:38:59.500 over and over and over again I'm actually gonna grab it for you so you can see give me one yes

00:39:03.060 okay okay I love this okay so I thought ads were following me all around for this purse

00:39:12.100 I eventually bought it.

00:39:13.520 It took a month to come.

00:39:14.960 Look how tiny this purse is.

00:39:17.500 It's smaller than my cell phone.

00:39:19.780 That's so small.

00:39:20.340 The handle is so outrageously big.

00:39:23.900 Exactly.

00:39:24.900 And all I could think was, is Facebook just a platform for scams now?

00:39:29.280 Marketplace scams and stuff.

00:39:30.800 I just felt I will never buy another thing that I see on Facebook ads ever again.

00:39:34.740 And it just made me feel the platform was just a place for scammy marketing.

00:39:39.440 And I guess I, certainly there's some of that on TikTok as well and other platforms, but

00:39:43.280 I guess I just feel like Facebook, I don't know what it wants to be.

00:39:46.060 I don't know what role it's trying to play anymore in my life.

00:39:49.320 Well, it wasn't Instagram is really trying to become literally a shop.

00:39:54.240 Like they really are just trying to sell you things.

00:39:57.160 And the whole Instagram, this is just my theory, but with like the switch from Instagram to

00:40:03.820 TikTok in popularity, I think is really interesting.

00:40:06.080 and it says something about like our drive or desire for authenticity in our relationships

00:40:12.020 with like influencers because the Instagram influencers are very aesthetically nice to

00:40:17.560 look at like that's all well and good but TikTok is like having a FaceTime conversation with

00:40:23.680 somebody even if you're they're never going to hear what you have to say back like millions

00:40:28.780 people might be looking at their face but it feels so intimate and really it does let your

00:40:33.720 personality to shine through. That's not to say pretty privilege is not a huge part of who goes

00:40:38.540 viral, but personality also matters. Yeah, I've noticed this. And it's also one of those reasons

00:40:44.360 why I think that people who were nailing it in terms of being influencers on Instagram by being

00:40:51.420 so aesthetically pleasing, that doesn't really translate all the time. On TikTok, you need to be

00:40:57.520 charming or funny or engaging or authentic. People have to want to connect with you.

00:41:02.060 Just being hot doesn't really cut it. Again, there are people who like their TikToks will be, you know, do numbers just because they're good looking. So that certainly happens on the platform. But I do think it's a platform where you have to sort of bring a different side of yourself.

00:41:16.360 And I think it's really challenged a lot of people who have made their platform on something

00:41:22.720 else.

00:41:23.140 That's something aesthetically pleasing.

00:41:24.920 Yeah, it's just a different type of marketing.

00:41:27.260 You're not marketing what's a pretty picture now, and you're more marketing your personality

00:41:33.140 and how you can sell something using your personality, which, you know, might have more

00:41:40.880 room for exploitation.

00:41:42.340 So that's fun.

00:41:43.280 I know either way we cut it we're being exploited whether it's like oh but because we look a certain

00:41:49.860 way or because our genuine personality is being exploited to push whatever the hell like it's

00:41:56.380 exploitation it's exploitation no matter how you slice it I'm sure it's just like is my are my

00:42:03.460 looks better for selling clothes or is my personality like better for selling bang energy

00:42:10.480 also wait this is just quick pivot to the challenges again because there's a statistic

00:42:16.460 that i need to give you because i brought it here and i just have to share it because it's just

00:42:21.220 too interesting um so do you know the blackout challenge i do like this challenge that supposedly

00:42:29.640 kids are seeing at tiktok that is encouraging them to hold their breath until they can pass out

00:42:35.120 uh so and a lot of the news coverage about it will point to the death of there's two instances

00:42:46.120 of young children dying because of this sort of like holding your breath challenge but what is

00:42:53.700 also interesting is that a c like a cdc study identified 82 probable choking game deaths among

00:43:04.200 kids age six to 19 from 1995 to 2007, which is long before TikTok ever was a part of the picture.

00:43:12.520 There are far more happening as this game that's part of our culture beyond just what's being told

00:43:22.260 to us on social media. And I think that's so interesting and I'm obsessed with that statistic

00:43:26.880 now. Yeah, it's such a clarifying statistic. I'm in my 30s and we certainly had, I think

00:43:34.180 we called it the choking game right like that it was yeah that's what we called it yeah this was

00:43:39.680 before tiktok or social media was ever a thing this idea that it's a new danger that is being

00:43:45.660 presented to children on their phones it's just not true yeah like literally 82 children died

00:43:52.380 between 1995 and 2007 from this game it's it's horrific like it's a completely unnecessary death

00:44:00.740 and not a healthy thing for us to do to our brains, even if we don't die.

00:44:06.240 But it's not new.

00:44:08.260 And I think a lot of these panics often center around something that, like, is a much larger problem and not new.

00:44:16.100 Oh, yeah, they're not new.

00:44:17.540 And it really just collapses these big, complex issues into such simplistic terms.

00:44:22.560 That's fascinating.

00:44:23.340 I couldn't believe I was lucky enough to even find that statistic.

00:44:26.620 I didn't know that it existed.

00:44:27.820 uh but i do feel like it it sheds light on how we frame our social media challenges as somehow new

00:44:37.880 when they've been around in our culture for for decades absolutely i'm so glad that you i that's

00:44:46.960 that is fascinating it's yeah very very sad very fascinating um the challenge i've been dealing

00:44:54.840 with all day is the labello challenge which you probably haven't seen yet this is no oh it's it's

00:45:00.960 in it's all in french um it's a tiktok chat tiktok challenge i'm using air quotes

00:45:07.660 that you you use like labello chapstick every time you feel sad and then when you run out

00:45:18.340 to the end of the two, you, you take your own life and it's going like the ministry of the

00:45:29.440 interior tweeted about it last week. Like they tweeted and which gave so much credibility

00:45:37.440 to this challenge that completely misunderstands why somebody would take their own life. Like

00:45:46.740 they are not killing themselves because social media said to do it at the end of their chapstick

00:45:54.420 tube. Like they're doing it because they're in pain and don't feel like they have somebody to

00:45:59.280 go to. And it's so infuriating. And I've been, this is what I've been dealing with like all day

00:46:04.760 trying to debunk it and understand like where it came from. It's just like,

00:46:08.740 you wonder why your kids won't go to you about your feelings, but then your understanding of

00:46:15.680 mental health seems to be so limited that you think that they would kill themselves because

00:46:20.260 of the TikTok trend. And it's like, I kind of get why they feel like they can't talk to you.

00:46:26.220 And like, if you were a young person who was struggling with suicidal ideation,

00:46:31.680 and this is what the adults in your life or in your atmosphere were telling you that they believe

00:46:38.520 about what you might be feeling, I can imagine that being incredibly isolating. And, you know,

00:46:43.840 And again, it's kind of goes back to what you were saying that it's probably so much easier to think, you know, youth, youth suicide is being fueled by this social media trend and then have it end there as opposed to, you know, youth suicide and youth mental health issues are being fueled by a complex network of issues that are systemic and personal that we need to talk about and solve.

00:47:10.240 why get why you know grapple with that which is complex and big and scary and complicated and you

00:47:18.100 know feels unsolvable but you can just be like it's the phones it's the technology it's yeah

00:47:26.380 it provides a very simple answer uh and i mean also the way that social media and this is for

00:47:37.100 all platforms like I think we saw this a lot with Tumblr we're seeing a lot with TikTok and they

00:47:42.020 become spaces where people can talk about their struggles with mental health and things like you

00:47:48.540 know suicidal ideation things like eating disorders and it's this weird gray area because

00:47:56.240 it's not necessarily against like the guidelines of the platform and it's potentially a space where

00:48:05.400 they can find support and find community but it also might be glorifying those types of behaviors

00:48:11.560 um it might be making them more prevalent it's just one of those things that we don't know yet

00:48:16.220 and we still need a lot more research into uh but it's certainly not like black and white good and

00:48:22.720 bad like that people on social media do have spaces where they are talking about these things

00:48:29.840 and then imagine that the adults get wind of some meme you made about how you're feeling horrible

00:48:41.120 and their response is to just like take away your phone and take away the place where you do

00:48:47.580 have community uh that makes me nervous yeah i mean it goes it really goes back to what you

00:48:53.460 were saying about how these platforms on the one hand they can be such a great place to build

00:48:58.320 community and have these conversations around discovery and all of that and feel less alone

00:49:02.680 but that they also can present this like very dangerous landscape as well it's like you really

00:49:07.940 it's it's i don't know what we do with that it feels very unsatisfying but i guess that's what

00:49:13.560 it is yeah i don't have a very satisfying answer for that because sometimes the community

00:49:18.000 is simultaneously like providing support and being toxic and what do you do i don't i don't

00:49:26.100 And that's why I'm like more research, I guess.

00:49:28.920 Well, I feel like more research is like always like a good place to start.

00:49:32.460 Maybe always definitely a good starting ground.

00:49:37.000 If you don't know the answer at all, you're like, can we at least commission some research on it?

00:49:43.860 Well, I'm glad that folks like you are doing that research.

00:49:48.360 You know, I'm obviously so grateful for you.

00:49:51.060 I'm so excited that you're working on your thesis.

00:49:53.260 Thank you.

00:49:53.840 When I'm done, I'm going to make you.

00:49:55.920 Maybe I'll come back on and be like, can I just read my whole thesis?

00:49:59.220 Do you want to hear all 100 pages?

00:50:01.800 Open invitation.

00:50:03.000 I definitely do.

00:50:04.540 So let's keep me posted on when that's done.

00:50:09.380 Will do.

00:50:10.400 Definitely will do.

00:50:11.360 Abby, where can folks follow all the amazing stuff that you're up to?

00:50:16.280 Yeah, I'm on TikTok at Topology.

00:50:18.640 I'm on Twitter at AbbyASR

00:50:21.540 and Instagram at AbbySR

00:50:24.360 and I guess wait for my thesis to drop

00:50:29.940 we're talking about it like it's a mixtape

00:50:33.500 it is

00:50:34.160 I'm going to put the whole thing on SoundCloud

00:50:36.040 yeah the hottest thesis of the summer

00:50:38.860 air horns

00:50:40.600 check out my SoundCloud

00:50:42.240 it's me reading all 100 pages in monotone to you

00:50:47.640 And now it is time for another installment of our newsletter column, Dear Internet, where I take your internet questions, conundrums, etiquette concerns, and answer them to the best of my ability.

00:51:00.040 So if you want to get more of these, subscribe to our free newsletter at tangoti.com slash newsletter, where you can submit your questions and you might even hear them on the air.

00:51:09.000 Here's today's question. 1.00

00:51:10.580 Dear Internet, my sister is obsessed with filters and apps like Facetune. 1.00

00:51:16.080 When she posts pictures on social media,

00:51:17.880 I barely recognize her to the point where it's a running joke with our friends and family.

00:51:22.240 We joke with her about it, but, you know, to each their own.

00:51:26.460 Except when she posts pictures of us together,

00:51:30.000 she Facetunes and filters everybody in the photo, including me.

00:51:34.380 Recently, she posted a family picture on Instagram,

00:51:37.220 and she added egregious filters to everybody, including my preteen daughters. 1.00

00:51:43.040 Now, it's one thing if my sister doesn't mind Snickers behind her back regarding her use of filters. 1.00

00:51:48.280 But do we all have to be included every time she posts a picture?

00:51:52.000 So I wanted to share this letter because she is not alone.

00:51:56.320 According to research by Dove, 85% of the girls that they surveyed had to use an app like Facetune to change the way they look in photos by the age 13.

00:52:05.920 And in some cases, young people are even getting cosmetic surgery

00:52:09.100 to look more like their digitally face-tuned and filtered selves

00:52:13.400 that, keep in mind, don't actually exist.

00:52:16.700 And I also think this is an interesting question

00:52:18.520 because I don't really think there's a hard and fast answer around it.

00:52:22.880 To be clear, I'm not really comfortable with the idea of any adult

00:52:25.880 filtering and face-tuning a child

00:52:27.920 because we should let kids be kids.

00:52:30.180 We should let them understand that their looks are not everything.

00:52:33.360 But when we're talking about adults,

00:52:34.720 I think it gets a little bit murkier.

00:52:36.540 Now, to be clear, I have not always been above

00:52:39.160 using a little bit of a filter or a FaceTune every now and then.

00:52:42.280 You know, if you've got a big zit in a picture

00:52:43.900 and you want to just zap it out, I've done that.

00:52:46.460 And I also think I was really using Instagram a lot

00:52:48.700 during this era of the Instagram influencer

00:52:51.060 when there was this real pressure, I think,

00:52:53.220 for all of us to look perfect and airbrushed on Instagram

00:52:55.980 because that was what the app was telling us got engagement.

00:52:59.420 And so if you wanted to get a lot of engagement on the app,

00:53:01.580 the best way to do that was to post

00:53:02.960 a really polished filtered photo of yourself.

00:53:06.020 And I'm not going to sit here and act like I have not done that myself.

00:53:09.260 But as I've gotten older and really like these kinds of apps

00:53:12.720 have played less and less of a role in my life,

00:53:15.180 I really don't care that much anymore.

00:53:16.960 I'm not going to sit around and FaceTune and filter a bunch of photos.

00:53:20.460 And also, I just think it's important to show up as yourself.

00:53:23.460 You know, this is what a 30-something-year-old woman looks like.

00:53:27.160 You know, why lie about that?

00:53:29.160 But I also think we need to leave room for the fact that not everyone feels that way.

00:53:32.960 I don't begrudge anyone using any of the apps at our disposal to look and feel their best.

00:53:37.900 I think it's a really personal thing.

00:53:39.860 And so that said, the idea that it's a personal thing, I think it really warrants a frank conversation with your sister.

00:53:47.280 You know, she might very well see face tuning and filtering your photo when she posts them as being polite.

00:53:53.360 You know, if I'm going to touch up my photo, it's rude to not touch up my sister's photo as well.

00:53:57.940 Maybe she feels bad about the idea of posting a photo where, in her mind, she has perfected herself and she's keeping you natural.

00:54:04.520 So I think that it's important to not assume malintent around why she's filtering your picture so much.

00:54:10.620 But I also think it's a personal thing.

00:54:13.060 You know, you should be able to have a little bit of say around how you show up digitally, even on her feed.

00:54:17.860 And so I think if you're close, it warrants a real conversation about her motivations and just being really clear about where your comfort level lies.

00:54:26.820 And listeners, I really want to hear what you think about this.

00:54:30.000 Do you use filters and Facetune on your photos?

00:54:33.600 How would you feel if a friend or family member added one for you?

00:54:37.480 Subscribe to the newsletter and let me know at tangoti.com slash newsletter. 1.00

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - May 24, 2022

What’s fueling the moral panic around TikTok challenges？ In part, Facebook.

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