00:03:22.800But yes, I'm very eager to learn more about this.
00:03:25.600Can you tell us what we're going to be discussing today?
00:03:28.260Yeah, so as you just said, Annie, it is sort of related about this idea of who is able to really control conversations on the internet about one specific subject.
00:03:40.880And so today, that topic is going to be Meghan Markle.
00:03:45.200As you all, I'm sure by now probably know, the Queen died last week.
00:03:50.000I'm curious, do you two have any strong connection to the royal family, the monarchy?
00:03:54.840Like, is this something that you followed or are you like, could not care less, have not followed it, don't know anything about it?
00:04:15.080I did go through a period where I was really into like, entertainment from the UK and specifically like I was in love with the idea of moving to London.
00:04:24.840but I've never been into their royal family.
00:04:29.100That's never made sense to me personally
00:07:57.500and, like, changing the royal family website
00:07:59.620to be, like, a mourning, you know, in-memoriam kind of thing.
00:08:03.920And in addition to the way that social media has shaped the way the royals, you know, present to the public, we have seen that it also presents this place for Meghan Markle to be faced with pretty intense criticisms, but also things like outright lies, conspiracy theories, racist, sexist smears and stereotypes about who she is.
00:08:23.720And it really is not the first time, like, we have seen this kind of stuff going on with Meghan Markle before the Queen's death, obviously.
00:08:31.720And it's so interesting to me that this event, the Queen's death, was used not just as a way to, like, memorialize her or, like, critique her reign or anything like that.
00:08:42.920It was also used as a way to further slam Meghan Markle on social media.
00:08:58.400Even I was aware that this was happening.
00:09:00.540Like, I saw it trending on, like, my brief, like, what's going on on Twitter.
00:09:05.300And I had enough knowledge to be like, I bet this is coming from a really terrible racist place when I saw, like, Meghan Markle go home trending.
00:09:17.140So yeah, can you explain what all of that was?
00:09:48.020And so that kind of messaging was in full effect.
00:09:51.620After the Queen died, as you said, the hashtag Meghan Markle go home started trending on Twitter.
00:09:56.260And basically what I found so interesting about that is that first people were picking on her because she did not go to England with Harry, her husband, after the Queen died.
00:10:09.040And again, I'm no expert here, but it sounds like she just was not invited and so not going wasn't anything bad.
00:10:16.320And then when she actually did go, everybody was like, oh, go home, go home.
00:10:21.040So it's interesting how it kind of doesn't matter what she does.
00:10:28.980And I think it really illustrates how, yeah, it's like this impossible tightrope where it's clearly not really about her actions and what she actually does or says.
00:10:38.780it's just about her it's about her existence her presence that is threatening that is not okay with
00:10:44.520the people that hate her and ultimately it's like an impossible situation to walk um there was this
00:10:50.300like very fascinating instance where she was videoed and somebody in a crowd handed her some
00:10:57.180flowers and an aide seems to walk up to her and is like oh i'll take those for you and she says
00:11:01.880she mouths something to him that's like seems to be oh i got it don't worry about it thank you
00:11:06.620And you would, the way that people talked about this on the internet, you would think that she punched this aide. And it's like, actually, she's just like calmly standing there saying a sentence, smiling, and then like clearly saying thank you. And it's like a 30 second interaction. People were dissecting it like the JFK Zapruder film. Like, people became like overnight body language experts and lip readers. And it was wild.
00:11:31.880mm-hmm yeah yeah I I want to return to that idea of anti-fandom for sure because I think
00:11:42.140as someone who is like a fan of a lot of stuff I've seen this before and it just becomes like
00:11:48.280this where people feel justified in hating someone and here's the proof and I yeah I'm a body
00:11:55.380language expert and i can tell you why um but all it is is like they just want to hate that person
00:12:02.960who usually they feel is encroaching on their territory and very heavy clothes like as someone
00:12:10.820who is interested in a lot of like star wars stuff nerdy stuff fandom stuff i'm sure you've
00:12:16.820seen this a lot yes oh i cannot wait uh to talk about it once we get more in depth about what
00:12:24.300might be going on here because yeah it's just like it becomes i think i've said to samantha
00:12:31.380before it's like this anti-find-up thing is ringing so true with me because i'm like well
00:12:35.400you're not a fan anymore you're just all about the hate of this you're a hater you just are unhappy
00:12:40.900so i don't know why you're here right it's to make everyone else feel unhappy and to like
00:12:48.580assert your what you think is your power and dominance in the space but you're not a fan
00:12:54.820if you hate this much of it just go just go along it's it's gonna be okay
00:13:02.240oh yeah and i mean they're like the levels people will go the things they'll do to scare
00:13:33.400this, something is wrong here with Meghan Markle.
00:13:37.120Yeah. So like, I mean, the amount of wild conspiracy theory,
00:13:41.300Like people, it's clearly a lot of like projection where people already have a negative association with someone and then any little thing will be used as proof to stack that thinking, right?
00:13:55.920And so one of the big conspiracies that came out of the Queen's funeral was that Meghan attended the funeral wearing a hidden recording device under her dress.
00:14:05.120and the reason why people thought this is because she was photographed
00:14:59.040this whole conversation is so odd to me because
00:15:03.120Meghan Markle just being being present marrying a man has caused this huge controversy and of
00:15:11.160course a lot of conversations and comparisons to Princess Diana and Meghan Markle of course
00:15:16.300those same people who probably uh were degrading and or criticizing uh Princess Diana would now
00:15:23.420call her an angel and then saying that Meghan Markle's the one that's, you know, disrespecting0.87
00:15:29.140the name of Princess Diana. And everyone's like, wait, what? You are the ones who are number one
00:15:33.000in criticisms. But also just like the fact that Meghan Markle has nothing honestly to gain in this
00:15:39.640entirety of this conversation, of these controversies to record any of these things,
00:15:45.320to try, as they say, that she's trying to make money off these things. She's not. She's literally0.61
00:15:49.500doing a podcast about her own life, bringing in guests to talk about marginalized issues
00:15:54.000that has nothing to do with the throne in general, as well as the fact Prince Harry's not that close.
00:16:00.380None of his family is not close to the lineage to become king or queen or whatever or whatnot.
00:16:05.580We have already seen the graphs that happen. So my mind is just reeling of like, why? Why take
00:16:10.940this effort to bring this conspiracy other than hey she's uh she is not white so therefore we hate
00:16:19.600her yeah and you you touched on something this is a little bit of a tangent but you touched on
00:16:24.640something that i think about all the time is how you know i i was young when before princess diana
00:16:31.340died but even i know as like a child living in the united states even i knew the way the press
00:16:36.880talked about her even as a kid and so the press really tore her down and then when she died
00:16:42.520she's an angel we've always loved her it's like and I I see that so often and I do think it's
00:16:48.680like as bad as the media in the United States is I do feel like in the UK and in England it's like
00:16:54.160work can be worse like like a little bit like um more vicious and I think about like Amy Winehouse
00:17:02.180is the figure because I'm a was a huge Amy Winehouse fan Amy Winehouse is the figure that0.98
00:17:05.840I think about a lot where the press and the media loved to villainize her and really make fun of her
00:17:12.600in these like cruel ways and ways that I hope that when people are struggling with substance
00:17:18.900issues now, I hope that we've gotten to a place where like we don't cruelly mock them for it.
00:17:24.140But then when she died, the way that that same press rushed to lionize her, rushed to act as if
00:17:30.660they had always loved her. And it's just, it's hard to see. And, you know, it's kind of breaks
00:17:35.440my heart but there's this video clip of harry talking about this and he's like basically feels
00:17:41.720very emphatically that the press is responsible for the death of his mother and that when when
00:17:47.300there was a time when megan was open about experiencing uh you know feelings of self-harm
00:17:53.640and he talked about how he felt like he was watching the press do the same thing to his
00:18:00.160new wife that they that he had to watch them do to his mom and i something about that clip really
00:18:05.700sticks with me of like i don't know i i don't think i'll ever be able to understand what that
00:18:10.240must feel like to have watched that as a child and be so powerless and then watch it again and
00:18:15.860be like no i'm not letting this happen again yeah and compounding that with the fact that this is a
00:18:21.480racist uh attack on a woman for just being in love with a man point blank um but you know i
00:18:29.320found it interesting because for me, I actually didn't know much about this hashtag. As much as
00:18:36.280I'm on Twitter and saying things again, like I said, my friends have very strong feelings of
00:18:41.160the queen and her responsibility and colonialism in itself. So I had a whole different take
00:18:47.340on this conversation. So I'm kind of surprised to know that this is happening. And I'm really
00:18:51.940wondering, where did they all come from? So this is a great question. So I have to say,
00:18:56.620I am probably in a similar digital pocket that you are because my timeline when the queen died was like very much black Twitter and like Irish Twitter and like Jamaican Twitter all coming together.
00:21:03.740He did an entire analysis of Meghan Markle in October of 2021.
00:21:08.400And basically, you would be surprised that a lot of the hate thrown at Meghan Markle is being driven by a lot fewer people on social media than you might suspect.
00:22:40.680Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.0.98
00:22:45.100I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:22:49.560I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:22:56.620They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:23:01.080But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:23:04.520They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:23:08.160Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:23:16.600If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:23:22.540This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:23:35.020I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:23:42.120I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:23:45.260From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:23:51.660It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:23:59.580Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:24:08.740Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:25:41.100And I think it really goes to show that, like, A, a pretty small minority of very motivated, very vocal, coordinated, I guess, in a nice way to put it, passionate people can really change discourse.
00:25:59.380They can really change, like, they can really make an impact.
00:26:02.340And so I would also, I would argue then that, like, there is a problem with our social media platforms and our digital platforms if a small handful, a relatively small handful of dedicated trolls and people to people like haters can really impact and change discourse.
00:26:20.620Like, I would argue that that means that something is broken, something is flawed.
00:26:24.340And I also think that, you know, when you have a small handful of people dictating the conversation and making, creating the impression that everybody hates this new person on Star Wars or everybody hates Meghan Markle, it's so much easier for somebody who is just a casual viewer of this to get the idea that, like, oh, well, everybody hates so-and-so.
00:26:46.060So like, I'm not going to chime in with like, I like so-and-so or that I'm ambivalent about so-and-so. If I'm going to chime in, it kind of poisons the well and it makes it so that we can't actually have honest conversations rooted in what people actually feel because it just like creates an ecosystem where the hate is what's dictating the conversation.
00:27:05.300And so, yeah, I would argue that that means that our ecosystems are not healthy and not, you know, functioning properly if hate is able to dictate the conversation, even if it's a small minority of people who feel that way.
00:27:17.400Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I was under the impression, I was totally under the impression like, oh, this must be a much bigger group of people than I thought, even if I was like, they're wrong and they're full of hate.
00:27:26.980still thought it was way bigger. And the numbers you brought about Meghan Markle kind of shocked
00:27:34.540me with like how much smaller they were based on what I have seen as a casual viewer of this.
00:27:43.060Absolutely. So let's dig into some of those numbers. So from this Bot Sentinel report,
00:27:46.840they found that only 83 accounts on Twitter generate 70% of Meghan Markle hate content
00:27:54.580on Twitter. They estimate that these 83 accounts have a potential combined reach of 17 million
00:28:01.620users. So they broke it down. They found that 55, what we call single purpose anti-Meghan
00:28:07.640Markle hate accounts. And so a single purpose hate account is that account that like it only
00:28:12.420exists to hate on one person like that, like they're not like primarily like that's what
00:28:16.980they're doing. So 55 of those accounts were these like primary hate accounts. And then another 28
00:28:23.940secondary accounts that like mainly amplified them and so those 28 accounts they might post
00:28:29.900about like the royals more generally but that their real function is to boost and amplify when
00:28:36.440those that when those other primary accounts put out anti-Meghan Markle hate and so that that's
00:28:42.980really it like they are generating a lot of the hate online it is not organic conversation and
00:28:49.280And it's certainly not a reflection of how just everybody feels on social media because these accounts have such a big reach and such a big ability to control the conversation about Meghan Markle.
00:29:01.180Yeah, yeah. And that's something that you've come on and you've talked about a lot on here is this, the responsibility of social media platforms, but also that kind of manipulation towards these hateful accounts when it comes to the algorithm.
00:29:18.380and like what people see and what gets like more traction, right?
00:32:37.520But I find that interesting that we have had this continuous talk and we have these prime examples of what is happening on Twitter specifically.
00:32:47.460We talked recently about one of the Canadian women who is currently working with Bumble in making sure that there's safety for the women and those who are on their app.
00:32:58.960And that one of her big things were that she was bringing out the reports showing how Twitter does not help or defend or make Twitter safe for women and marginalized people.
00:33:09.620And Ipsos just recently came out with a big research data showing that women are still being heavily targeted and are not being helped at all by platforms in general.
00:33:20.960And that the fact of the matter is people are once again profiting, have become aware of, oh, so we can make money by essentially on women and women of color and doing so in a way that not only can we get away with it, not only can we make money,
00:33:38.120but it's making a difference in people's reaction to this.
00:33:42.000Yeah, I mean, like, and so you're exactly right.
00:33:45.140Like, the research is, it completely jives with what you're saying.
00:33:51.320And as bad as that is, right, so, like, platforms are, like,
00:33:56.080I would argue that this kind of negative engagement
00:33:59.400and harassment and abuse of women of color on these platforms,
00:34:02.960I would argue that is built into these business models.
00:34:06.060Like, Twitter, when somebody tweets something that is, like, crapping on Meghan Markle and it's getting lots of engagement, it is in Twitter's best financial interest to boost that and amplify that because it's like, oh, this is clicky.
00:35:30.500But we go under the radar enough that, you know, we don't have to deal with that.
00:35:34.740But for someone who's being told, if you don't get your views up, you're not going to get paid or you're not going to stay in this job, I couldn't imagine that level.
00:35:43.960So I actually literally just left a summit all about this as it pertains to journalism.
00:35:50.160And when I was a kid, I wanted to be a journalist, right?
00:35:53.660Like, I was obsessed with April O'Neil from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
00:36:13.640Because I think a lot of women have, women are smart enough to realize if I'm going,
00:36:18.860If the cost of doing this job is dealing with online abuse, online harassment, online violence, and my male counterparts are not dealing with it the same way that I am.
00:36:30.460So it's just like an extra woman tax or, you know, marginalization tax in the workplace.
00:36:36.760And institutions largely do not know how to support women who are going through this and dealing with this.
00:36:43.320And so it's, like, just their problem, there's an assumption that the person who is the focal point of harassment and abuse, that they've done something to warrant it, and that completely is not how it works.
00:36:54.060Like, oftentimes, the thing that they're doing is, like, existing as a woman.
00:36:58.540And so think about what we are asking women to deal with.0.99
00:37:04.300It's just completely unfair, and we're asking them to deal with it and not even talk about the issue, right?1.00
00:37:10.520And so it's completely, it sets up a completely unfair dynamic.
00:37:13.740When I think about how many people have either just given up on this as a career,
00:37:18.820they're just like, I'm not going to get on social media.
00:37:40.160I don't want to give the impression that it is just Twitter because that is not the case.
00:37:44.560So Bot Sentinel also analyzed YouTube accounts.
00:37:47.620And they found that because of YouTube monetization, trashing Meghan Markle is actually big, lucrative business.
00:37:54.620They found that 25 YouTube channels earned around $3.5 million from ad revenue.
00:38:00.820And that three of the most successful anti-Meghan Markle accounts generated almost $500,000 during their existence.
00:38:07.240And these videos are like, it's not like they're filming, you know, I know, like they're low quality videos that basically just traffic in conspiracy theories and outright lies and like racist stereotypes and tropes.
00:38:27.460And so some of the claims that they'll make is like, oh, Meghan Markle, she faked her pregnancy. She used a surrogate. It's things that are completely baseless lies. And I think that if you are able to make half a million dollars almost trafficking in baseless lies and conjecture and racism and sexism, you shouldn't be able to, if you're able to make that kind of money from that, something is wrong. Like something is really broken.
00:38:53.720Yeah. Yeah. I mean, agreed. Because it's like, not that this always works, but there's been attempts to crack down on like medical misinformation. Like you can't make money off of that. It's been hit or miss.
00:39:11.200but there have been attempts and it seems like if there's just something flatly untrue you should
00:39:16.140not be making millions of dollars from it by saying that it is true and then just like the
00:39:25.100the spreading of that um and how harmful that is on these platforms and we've seen it and like we
00:39:34.180said like the trickle effect of people believing that this is the discourse and so therefore0.99
00:39:39.960women have it hard enough already like in the public office like I just don't like her there's1.00
00:39:45.660something about her and to have like just this overwhelming discourse of like no no one likes her1.00
00:39:52.640and so it just it just seems so toxic and that people are making money from it is
00:39:58.080a very frustrating and I definitely agree that means something is wrong here yeah and I want
00:40:04.980to be clear like I didn't really have strong feelings about Meghan Markle I like that she's a0.96
00:40:09.260black princess, but, or was a black princess. And yeah, I know she wasn't really princess,0.81
00:40:13.500but whatever. But like, if you don't like Meghan Markle, that's fine. It's totally within your
00:40:20.400right to be like, I don't like her. Robbins me the wrong way. Whatever. We all have people that
00:40:24.940we don't like, but that is very different than, you know, I am going to spearhead a coordinated
00:40:32.460campaign to make it seem like everybody doesn't like her. And that campaign is going to be built
00:40:39.180on racism, sexism, and lies about who she is.
00:40:42.840And I say that because when you do that,
00:45:49.520Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.
00:45:54.060I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.
00:45:58.620I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.
00:46:06.060They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:46:10.020But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.
00:46:13.460They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:46:16.600Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:46:25.560If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:46:31.480This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:46:43.960I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:46:51.080I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:46:54.600From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:47:00.600It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:47:08.080Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:47:17.680Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:53:35.620It's these 83 people are bad actors, but also more institutionally, platforms need to do something to make sure that a relatively small handful of people can't hijack an entire conversation about a subject.
00:53:49.040And again, I know that a lot of people that I respect would say that the answer is to ban single issue hate accounts or single person hate accounts, that we should be banning those.
00:53:57.980And I, again, I think that there's always going to be people who their thing is hating on other public figures.
00:54:04.840And so I don't necessarily think that, like, those people should not be able to do that.