There Are No Girls on the Internet - Women are fighting for change in Iran after the death of Mahsa Amini

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00:00:43.740 welcome home pro society is a weekly podcast that's part book club part group chat for anyone

00:00:49.960 who thinks pride and prejudice and love island to serve the same level of discourse each week

00:00:54.500 we're connecting the dots between books the internet and pop culture with your favorite

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00:01:05.220 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:01:28.520 orders only other fees and terms apply you know show that we're in this connected world we really

00:01:35.100 are connected and um don't let them feel like they're they're being subjected to this brutal

00:01:41.680 violence on their own in one corner and that nobody else cares there are no girls on the

00:01:50.880 Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

00:01:59.420 is There Are No Girls on the Internet. On September 16th, Masa Amini, a 22-year-old

00:02:07.280 Kurdish woman, was killed in custody while visiting Tehran. She was stopped by what's

00:02:12.500 known as the Morality Police or a roving group of people in Iran who police how people, mostly

00:02:18.940 women, present themselves, policing everything from how headscarves are worn, their clothing,

00:02:25.380 or even their makeup.

00:02:27.240 Masa's death in custody sparked anger, protests, and the largest uprising in Iran since 2009,

00:02:34.420 and it's being led by women.

00:02:37.040 My name is Negar Murtazavi.

00:02:39.380 I am an Iranian-American journalist and political commentator and host of the Iran podcast,

00:02:46.140 and I'm based in Washington, D.C.

00:02:48.940 Nagar has had an incredibly storied and accomplished career.

00:02:53.220 She studied international development and worked at the UN.

00:02:56.920 But in 2009, after incumbent president Ahmadinejad declared victory in the 2009 presidential election,

00:03:04.900 protests broke out in support of the opposition candidates, Mousavi and Kurobi,

00:03:09.660 sparking what's often called the Green Movement.

00:03:12.500 The wave of protests was the largest since the Iranian Revolution in the late 70s.

00:03:17.560 and it changed the entire course of Nagar's career and her life.

00:03:22.720 So, yeah, it was one of those moments.

00:03:24.960 Sometimes I hear about civil rights activists saying that the civil rights movement

00:03:30.420 sort of changed the course of their lives.

00:03:33.440 It was one of those things that changed their careers, family, everything, personal and professional.

00:03:38.280 And I think the Green Movement was also a moment that, just like the 1979 revolution before I was born,

00:03:44.500 The 2009 Green Movement was also a turning point that changed the course of professional and personal lives of a lot of Iranians.

00:03:53.840 A lot of journalists had to escape the country.

00:03:56.560 There was a mass exodus of journalists and political activists after the government crackdown of protesters.

00:04:02.920 And also some of us who worked abroad in the diaspora were forced into exile.

00:04:08.480 So on a professional level, it also changed my life.

00:04:10.700 I haven't been able to return, travel back to my homeland since 2009.

00:04:16.100 I've been living in exile.

00:04:18.100 And professionally, it also sort of pulled me into this media world.

00:04:24.200 So you've lived in Iran, and you've had to deal with the morality police or the guidance police personally.

00:04:29.760 What was that like for you?

00:04:30.980 Well, as a journalist and analyst, you know, you tend to look at things from a bird's eye view

00:04:36.720 or try to report staying outside of the scene.

00:04:39.360 But in this case, it's just inevitable because I was also an average citizen, a young woman living in Iran until I was about 20 years ago, now you have my age, when I moved to the U.S.

00:04:52.660 So I, yes, I dealt with the morality police.

00:04:55.860 I was never arrested by the morality police.

00:04:57.900 I was one of the lucky ones.

00:04:59.180 But it doesn't matter if you're arrested or not.

00:05:02.160 You live with this constant fear.

00:05:03.820 So the morality police, actually, the literal term for it is gashte ershad, which is the guidance patrol.

00:05:11.480 So they're supposed to patrol. You don't know where they are exactly.

00:05:14.800 They patrol at any moment. You can encounter them in the public spaces.

00:05:18.280 So there's this constant fear. Sometimes even women walking down the street telling each other, be like, oh, don't go to that crossroad.

00:05:26.080 there's a there's a gashed or this petrol standing there harassing women essentially it's a form of

00:05:32.220 public harassment over the years and um so it's yeah it's it's humiliating for someone to be

00:05:39.020 telling you how to dress and in a very subjective way because it's not like a very clear code over

00:05:45.400 the years in different areas of the country different local cultures women dress very

00:05:50.820 differently so it's very it's become very subjective based on what the specific agent

00:05:56.320 at the moment deems very humiliating very intrusive and also just this fear that women

00:06:04.140 constantly have and it's not only on the way they dress it's just it's the weight of life

00:06:10.980 that's being imposed but the most visible aspect of it is the mandatory hijab yes i've heard that

00:06:18.320 it can be clothing, makeup, these incredibly subjective things. And when I think about what's

00:06:25.180 triggered the protests happening in Iran right now, the young woman, Masha Amini, her death,

00:06:32.380 or some might say her murder, you know, really tapping into a kind of anger that I think we're

00:06:39.220 really seeing explode now. Can you tell us a bit about what's been triggering these protests?

00:06:43.040 so the initial spark for the protest was the death in custody regardless of what the exact

00:06:51.940 circumstance of the moment of God because the state is disputing the family's narrative the

00:06:56.660 family saying she was a healthy 22 year old with no underlying conditions and that she was subjected

00:07:01.740 to violence under arrest the state is saying no she had this heart attack and we didn't commit

00:07:07.840 any violence regardless of the exact details and i'm not a medical expert but um she died in custody

00:07:15.860 the death came in police custody it was their responsibility her well-being her life and for

00:07:22.160 what now you have even some religious iranians some hijabi women saying what exactly was wrong 0.99

00:07:28.580 with the way she was dressed because we've seen video of her in the detention center so 0.99

00:07:32.540 now the whole country knows the whole world knows exactly how she was dressed when she was

00:07:37.660 detained and this long manteau as we call it or this cover up she's this long scarf you look like 0.99

00:07:45.820 your average small town girl and a lot of women seeing are seeing themselves in her they're saying

00:07:51.740 this could have been me this is how i dressed yesterday so how i'm gonna dress tomorrow a lot

00:07:55.540 of men are seeing their own sisters in her i heard from this one protesters in another small town

00:08:00.520 saying my own sisters were visiting tehran on that same day and this is how they dress so would

00:08:05.900 Would they also be killed for the way they're dressing?

00:08:08.200 So it's how she was dressed.

00:08:11.740 It's this whole episode of the death in custody.

00:08:14.560 And essentially the morality police now is a lethal, violent force that is imposing this subjective dress code on women that you even have some religious scholars speaking up against. 0.73

00:08:25.800 There was a grand ayatollah.

00:08:27.140 There was a couple of religious scholars saying this is not even moral or Islamic.

00:08:31.780 You're not supposed to use violence to impose faith-based value or virtue on people who don't

00:08:38.160 believe in it. And some of these women are not even Muslims. There's a Christian community in

00:08:42.900 Iran. There's a Jewish community. There are visitors. Some of them are non-believers.

00:08:47.480 You know, it's forced on everyone. And now you have some scholars even challenging that from

00:08:51.800 a religious viewpoint. You were talking about people being visitors. And that's something

00:08:56.300 about this situation that really sticks with me for some reason. You know, she was just visiting

00:09:01.180 Tehran. She was a guest there, and this is what happened to her. And it makes me think that a lot

00:09:06.020 of the anger and emotion in the situation is because people can really see themselves and

00:09:09.860 their loved ones in her story. Exactly. That's what we're hearing from a lot of protesters in

00:09:15.680 Tehran saying, I am so sorry you were visiting my city and this is how you were treated. This is how

00:09:21.340 you end up a dead body in a hospital. And I also, by visitors, I meant visitors from outside the

00:09:26.880 country so tourists who are not even muslim they're not even iranian um and they're forced

00:09:32.420 to observe this mandatory hijab so some religious communities and some religious scholars are

00:09:37.780 challenging saying what is the logic in that i mean nowhere in religion this god i told i was

00:09:43.200 saying nowhere and nowhere in the religion is specified that muslims should use this kind of

00:09:48.500 violence and force to impose their own religious value on others he called it irrational because

00:09:54.620 he says this is backfiring, this is achieving the exact opposite. You're driving young people

00:09:59.440 away from hijab, from religion. What you're trying to guide them to accept is turning into 0.96

00:10:05.580 the opposite of itself. And he also called it illegal. He said nowhere in Iranian law

00:10:09.220 is it specified, despite the mandatory hijab, which is a discriminatory rule, but it's not

00:10:15.160 specified that you're supposed to put this in the hands of the police to enforce it and treat these

00:10:18.980 women. They're treating women essentially like criminals. They arrest them like criminals. They 1.00

00:10:23.400 throw them in these police vans so they're famous for having these vans that they fill up patrolling

00:10:28.420 around the cities they fill up and then they go to the station to drop them off for further

00:10:33.100 quote-unquote guidance or training sessions what are these training sessions can you tell me about

00:10:39.840 those i've never attended one thankfully but um so you go in there sometimes you have to sign a

00:10:46.140 paper acknowledging your violation of the dress code and committing that you're not going to

00:10:51.000 committed again this violation again basically it goes on your record like a criminal the training

00:10:56.980 teaches you how you're supposed to dress or behave according to the dress code there are

00:11:02.480 quote-unquote experts there who will be talking to you and further quote-unquote guiding you all of

00:11:08.460 this is just something that is very intrusive very humiliating and now you even have communities of 0.89

00:11:14.800 religious hijabi women i saw this campaign on instagram hundreds of thousands of um posts were

00:11:21.960 added that said i am hijabi and i oppose the morality police so essentially women who observe

00:11:27.500 it themselves saying don't do this in my name um i've even heard stories of religious women being

00:11:32.900 stopped by the morality police so women who observe the hijab in the private of their home 0.88

00:11:37.660 go outside with their own interpretation of how they're supposed to cover up and the morality 0.99

00:11:42.860 police it's not acceptable by them so a religious woman who even believes in that when the morality

00:11:47.920 police is not around in the private of their home then gets stopped by them because subjectively

00:11:52.640 it's not the way they want them to be so the the opposition is not just coming from the youth is

00:11:59.060 not just coming from the secular communities it's also coming from religious communities it's coming

00:12:04.520 from multi-generational women and men or women and allies and even some scholars there was a

00:12:10.620 sitting member of parliament uh who went on national television challenging this what are

00:12:15.660 we doing what is this kind of violence there were a few debates on national television that were

00:12:20.020 unprecedented people going up out there really criticizing both the mandatory hijab and the

00:12:25.740 and the morality police and then there's also very radical slogans on the street that go beyond just

00:12:31.620 the mandatory police and hijab issues targeting the entirety of the system the political elites

00:12:37.580 It's the corruption, the repression, and it's just layers of grievances 0.85

00:12:43.180 that have been piling up, and this is on top of that.

00:12:50.940 Let's take a quick break.

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00:13:48.680 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:13:54.540 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:14:01.060 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.

00:14:04.660 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:14:10.100 shut up, don't say anything.

00:14:12.860 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:14:17.280 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:14:21.740 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:14:28.800 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:14:33.260 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:14:36.720 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:14:40.340 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:14:48.780 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:14:54.720 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:15:07.200 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:15:14.300 I'm going to have to look up this story.

00:15:16.200 I'm obsessed.

00:15:16.940 So obsessed.

00:15:17.440 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:15:23.840 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

00:15:31.760 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

00:15:40.920 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:15:46.940 See you between the pages.

00:15:54.040 And we're back.

00:15:56.280 Obviously, this death in custody is what triggered these protests,

00:15:59.880 but are we also seeing other kinds of frustrations,

00:16:02.980 political frustrations, economic, social,

00:16:05.340 sort of being layered in to why people are so angry?

00:16:10.520 Definitely.

00:16:11.400 So there is an economic element to this.

00:16:14.020 The Iranian economy is in very bad shape.

00:16:16.060 Iranian youth don't see much prospect for themselves. There's a lot of corruption in the 1.00

00:16:22.600 political class, a lot of mismanagement of the resources, mismanagement of the whole COVID

00:16:28.200 pandemic. Add to that U.S. sanctions, economic and political isolation from the world that plays a

00:16:34.460 very significant role in the economic situation. There's also political demands. The political

00:16:39.340 space is very, it's closed. It's very repressive. Last year, the president was elected in a very

00:16:45.720 controversial election. His competition, moderate competitors were disqualified. So a lot of people

00:16:53.400 see him as like a shoo-in candidate whose path was clear to win in the election. So it's also

00:17:02.160 political. It's cultural, social. There's a lot of pressure on artists, on filmmakers. Even before

00:17:07.520 Massa's death, filmmakers were arrested. They were pressured artists. And now we're seeing even

00:17:13.900 athletes some football players that are speaking up uh are getting pressured so it's it's multi-layered

00:17:20.420 for sure and everyone is on the street with their own grievance but also this collective

00:17:25.260 uh sense of of multiple layers that people have taken to the street before in previous protests

00:17:31.620 in 2019 i was in mostly sparked by an economic issue a hike in fuel prices in 2009 the spark

00:17:39.380 with a political issue that contests the presidential election,

00:17:42.380 but when it's met with a violent crackdown

00:17:47.960 without the actual demand being addressed.

00:17:49.960 So people may go back home,

00:17:52.380 but then the next time they come out

00:17:54.600 bringing all of those grievances and demands with them.

00:17:59.000 What are some ways that the protests that we're seeing today,

00:18:02.300 how are they different than some of the ones

00:18:03.920 that we saw in 2019 and 2021?

00:18:06.180 Well, in 2019, the spark was an economic issue.

00:18:08.820 It was a sudden hike in fuel prices, so you saw a lot of working-class Iranians whose life costs suddenly dramatically changed just because of this fuel price take to the streets, and a lot of young men were centered in those protests, also from the number of deaths, people who were killed in the protests and the arrests, there was more leaning to that.

00:18:36.740 the middle class also participated it was in cities and towns but the demographics was a

00:18:46.960 little bit more leaning towards that issue this time around it's the spark is a women's rights

00:18:52.400 issue so you have a lot of women young women really leading these protests or taking the

00:18:57.740 being on the front line the symbolic images of them burning their scarf essentially or cutting

00:19:05.500 their hair, which is a sign of grief. It's also a sign of defiance and resistance. So the visibility

00:19:12.440 of women is very strong. You see a lot of middle class Iranians joining in the protests. It's still

00:19:20.100 difficult because there's internet disruption. There isn't easy access to the media to cover

00:19:26.540 these protests. So it's hard to gauge and do a fair comparison to something that's happened in

00:19:34.040 the past and we saw the images later. But this time around, I think one of the most visible

00:19:38.820 differences or just one of the most visible aspects we see is that a lot of young women are

00:19:44.620 at the forefront of this. And very understandably, it's a women's rights issue

00:19:50.440 and it's the death of a young woman. As we know, protesting in Iran is dangerous. It's deadly. And

00:19:57.760 you know, these young women are taking to the streets and by doing so, they're truly risking

00:20:02.740 their lives by showing up. And the images and videos that we're seeing, you know, women shaving

00:20:07.560 their heads, not just taking off their scarves, but burning them. I feel like there's such a 0.96

00:20:12.020 clear, visual, visceral defiance in the way they're showing up to the streets.

00:20:16.860 It certainly is. Yes. And as you said, it's incredible bravery and courage that we're

00:20:22.740 seeing from this young generation risking their lives. Essentially, we've seen the number of

00:20:27.300 deaths, dozens have been killed, the number of arrests, there's a lot of women, human rights

00:20:33.020 activists are saying there's a lot of women among the deaths, those who were killed, there's a high

00:20:38.500 percentage of women among the arrests, among the journalists who were arrested, a prominent

00:20:43.680 female journalist, Niloufar Hamedi, who went to the hospital and covered the story, was arrested

00:20:49.680 alongside others um so yes it's it's incredible courage and bravery and also very raw anger women

00:20:58.760 have been fighting this morality police and mandatory hijab for 40 years they have been

00:21:04.460 pushing back individually and now there's this collective pushback that we're seeing in the form 0.92

00:21:11.120 of these protests more after a quick break

00:21:19.680 the new red bull dragon berry and tropic berry energizers now at mcdonald's made with freeze-dried

00:21:30.360 fruit and an electric burst of flavor the all-new red bull energizers now at mcdonald's this product

00:21:38.580 may not be right for you high in caffeine details at mcdonald's.ca and participating

00:21:41.560 canadian restaurants excluding quebec run a business and not thinking about podcasting

00:21:45.880 Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify

00:21:50.940 and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

00:21:56.200 So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend

00:22:00.780 your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business?

00:22:05.540 Think iHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartAdvertising.com.

00:22:11.180 That's iHeartAdvertising.com.

00:22:13.740 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months.

00:22:19.680 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:22:26.060 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:22:29.740 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:22:35.160 shut up, don't say anything.

00:22:37.820 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:22:42.360 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:22:46.920 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:22:54.360 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:22:58.320 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:23:01.760 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:23:04.900 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:23:13.860 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

00:23:19.780 This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

00:23:32.260 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:23:39.380 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

00:23:42.900 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.

00:23:48.900 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

00:23:56.380 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

00:24:05.980 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:24:12.020 See you between the pages.

00:24:19.160 Let's get right back into it.

00:24:20.540 When you think about the role that technology, the internet, and other telecommunication services plays in protests,

00:24:28.080 it's easy to see the ways that this is a clear tech issue.

00:24:32.040 Earlier this year, the Iranian government announced a plan to use facial recognition technology

00:24:37.660 on public transportation and in other public places to identify women who don't comply

00:24:43.700 with very strict laws around dress and wearing headscarves.

00:24:47.080 headscarves. And as the protests raged, outages of internet and cellular services created a barrier

00:24:54.880 for women to spread their message and connect with each other. Many took to social media platforms 0.98

00:25:00.160 like TikTok and asked anyone with a platform to share their messages and amplify their voices

00:25:05.900 because they couldn't reliably do so without consistent internet. And this is not the first

00:25:11.700 time that internet disruptions were used as a tactic to silence protest in Iran.

00:25:16.780 Why has that been a tactic that the state has used during times of protest?

00:25:22.680 So the state wants to minimize coverage or evidence of violence committed by security

00:25:28.160 forces, and they deny it. They say it's the protesters who are being violent, it's being

00:25:32.720 fomented by our foreign enemies, and we have no problem with peaceful protest. So according to

00:25:40.060 the Iranian law, the constitution, peaceful protests without arms should be allowed in the

00:25:46.440 country. But that's not the case. There was even a conservative group, not among more of the

00:25:53.540 conservative camp or the hardline camp, who requested permission for a protest against the

00:26:00.900 mandatory police, and it was denied. So the internet disruption and the limitations on media,

00:26:08.500 And as far as coverage of the protests, one of them is to discourage or limit protesters

00:26:15.280 from recruiting more protests or organizing more protests.

00:26:20.180 The other is to limit protesters from communicating with each other.

00:26:23.700 So when they're out in the protests, they won't be able to find each other.

00:26:27.320 Another is to prevent them from disseminating the information to the larger community.

00:26:31.700 So if you live in a city, you find that there's a protest, you can go join it.

00:26:34.820 If you don't, then you can't.

00:26:36.140 and also prevents them from sending images, videos, photos, and essentially evidence

00:26:43.580 out outside of the country to the global media, to human rights organizations.

00:26:48.680 All of these are ways that go hand in hand with the suppression and the crackdown.

00:26:53.600 We saw it in 2019, a near shutdown, a total blackout of internet access, social media access.

00:27:01.540 and it took a while for us to understand what exactly was going on

00:27:06.600 and to see it visually weeks later

00:27:09.700 when the citizens and eyewitnesses were able to send these images out.

00:27:15.120 I report on social media a lot

00:27:17.740 and it was really TikTok where I saw so many women in Iran saying,

00:27:22.280 you know, our internet services have been disrupted

00:27:24.380 so please help us share this message, boost this message

00:27:27.160 if you can repost this message.

00:27:28.940 And I thought it was really interesting and quite savvy

00:27:31.340 that that was the clear ask that these women had. 0.99

00:27:35.260 They were bringing it to social media, 1.00

00:27:36.720 asking people to boost that message

00:27:38.900 and really help amplify it

00:27:40.080 because they couldn't rely on

00:27:41.380 having reliable internet access or media coverage.

00:27:44.940 Exactly.

00:27:45.520 So Iranian protesters have actually been,

00:27:47.540 Iranian citizens, the young generation,

00:27:49.720 have been very savvy in using internet and social media

00:27:53.060 because they have to rely on these alternative sources,

00:27:55.600 because there isn't much free and independent media

00:27:58.620 and access in the country.

00:28:00.960 So a lot of times, even foreign outlets rely on these citizen journalists on everyday eyewitness videos with mobile phones to document and to report on these issues and cover them.

00:28:12.200 And we saw it in 2009.

00:28:13.940 Back then, Facebook was really big and to some extent Twitter, but mostly Facebook.

00:28:18.480 In 2019, we also saw there's another messaging app that's very popular and they're on Telegram.

00:28:23.860 That was very big.

00:28:24.620 And then this time around, I think TikTok also talks to the generation that's really protesting. It's a lot of younger Iranians. And another thing I noticed is a lot of influencers on these social media who are not necessarily Iranian, but they're being contacted and asked or urged by their Iranian followers to speak up. 0.78

00:28:44.760 And I saw some influencers who are not even political, like on cooking or life stuff that are speaking up and bringing light to this issue and showing solidarity. 1.00

00:28:55.800 And it's all going back to the savviness of the population.

00:28:59.600 It's also a very young population, around 70 percent of the country is under the age of 40.

00:29:05.440 And so it's just a very young and connected and savvy population, despite all the limits that the government is putting on.

00:29:15.460 Wow, that's really something to have such a young citizenry.

00:29:19.040 I think it speaks to this idea of feeling like you have the right to control your future

00:29:23.460 and the right to demand something better for how your life can be and how you'll be treated

00:29:27.560 from your government. 1.00

00:29:28.980 And even if the government erects all of these barriers, young women are still being savvy 1.00

00:29:34.040 enough to go around those barriers to make their voices heard. 0.99

00:29:37.040 It is.

00:29:37.580 It is. 1.00

00:29:38.180 And it's not just women.

00:29:39.260 It's men also.

00:29:40.040 But it's so much more severe for women, the discrimination in family law, in occupation, even in universities, in child custody, in the glass ceiling that is above their head, in life, in their career, in their personal life.

00:29:58.900 And women have to just strive and put so much more effort and work compared to their male counterparts to be successful.

00:30:08.800 So it's very frustrating and it's very understandable that there's just so many multiple layers of anger that we're seeing outpouring on the streets, not just by women, but also their men and allies.

00:30:24.380 Yeah, I mean, something that you talked about earlier is this idea of treating women like criminals just for being, I mean, not even, I was going to say just for being outside of their home, but not even that, right?

00:30:35.120 And so I do think there's something about how difficult that makes it to participate in public life as a woman or a girl.

00:30:43.520 If you can be treated this way just for existing, just for showing up, it's an incredible barrier just for being able to live a life.

00:30:53.980 Indeed. Yes, it is.

00:30:55.500 A lot of women are essentially saying in many cases we feel like second class citizens. 0.99

00:30:59.560 So discrimination is just so suffocating.

00:31:01.560 um there's also a vibrant movement women have been pushing back demanding their rights and

00:31:08.460 they've made a lot of successes and it's not just in recent years it's been a century a hundred

00:31:13.340 years of their striving from the constitutional revolution through the 79 revolution through the

00:31:20.920 reform days and until today that women have been pushing they've made some successes um but there's

00:31:27.560 also this pull and push there's a pushback from not just the state but also the foundations of

00:31:33.920 patriarchy this is not all necessarily rooted in religion there's also that foundation of

00:31:38.700 patriarchy you sometimes even see it among secular uh iranians and the traditions and then

00:31:44.560 combine it with this uh religious layer in the islamic republic obviously it takes um a lot of 1.00

00:31:50.460 its uh foundations and religion so it's it's something that women have been pushing back 0.60

00:31:56.400 And globally, it's not just the women in Iran or in the Middle East, but it's something that I'm just in awe of the bravery and the courage of these young women in Iran.

00:32:07.840 I'm so glad that you're mentioning how all of this is global.

00:32:11.400 I feel like we're seeing women-led protests and movements all over the world, in the Middle East, in the United States, in the global south.

00:32:19.180 And I wonder, how can we make sure that we're really being in solidarity with each other

00:32:23.740 and learning from each other and supporting each other 0.67

00:32:25.940 in what we know is this global movement led by fed-up angry women?

00:32:31.340 How can we keep these conversations rooted in global solidarity?

00:32:35.320 Well, yes, it's very important to not lose sight of the fact that this is a global and historical fight.

00:32:42.780 It's happening in different shapes and forms across the world in each community, different issues.

00:32:48.340 are in the spotlight. Of course, we don't want to minimize the kind of violence and the severity

00:32:54.980 of some of these issues that Iranian women are dealing with, or the fact that Masa Amini died

00:32:59.340 because of the way she was dressed, because of the violence of the morality police.

00:33:03.260 But on different levels and different shapes and forms, women are dealing with this issue 0.90

00:33:08.520 across the world. Here in the U.S., it's reproductive rights that's taking center stage 1.00

00:33:13.240 these days and across the global south the global north different issues for minorities for the

00:33:22.780 majority of women in this intersectionality of all of these issues that we're talking so I think it's

00:33:29.460 important and Iranian women are also receiving a lot of messages of solidarity and sisterhood from

00:33:34.080 some of their neighboring countries I've seen Turkish women joining I've seen messages from

00:33:38.500 Arab women in solidarity, and also from not the region, from the global collection of women,

00:33:48.160 activists, artists, celebrities, actors, athletes. It's just been an outpouring of support and

00:33:56.100 solidarity, and I think that's something that gives a lot of hope and encouragement to them.

00:34:02.840 Absolutely. For folks who are listening, what can people do to help, support? Are there

00:34:08.180 causes people should be looking to donate to? How can folks get involved? Well, I would say

00:34:13.440 listen to a lot of the voices from inside Iran. It's a grassroots movement. It's an indigenous

00:34:19.480 movement. And a lot of women inside the country are risking their lives as we spoke, pushing for

00:34:26.360 this issue, try to echo their voices, share information about these issues, show solidarity,

00:34:34.640 use the hashtags or as Iranian women are saying say her name Masa Amini that's been one of the

00:34:40.920 slogans one of the other slogans was woman life freedom it's I think such a progressive and

00:34:47.060 forward-looking and and all-income passing slogan woman life freedom Zan Zendegi Azadi

00:34:53.720 just you know repeat these chants use the hashtags share the stories show solidarity if you have

00:35:00.660 Iranian friends, talk to them, see if they need support, hear the stories, and just, you know,

00:35:07.420 show that we're in this connected world, we really are connected, and don't let them feel like

00:35:14.000 they're being subjected to this brutal violence on their own in one corner and that nobody else

00:35:19.680 cares. You know, you're doing such an incredible job of curating these conversations about

00:35:23.900 life in Iran and the cultural and political aspects of the country. Where can folks,

00:35:29.520 Can you tell us about the podcast and how folks can listen to it?

00:35:32.920 Sure. So the Iran podcast started over two years ago as a pandemic podcast. 0.59

00:35:38.520 It's a weekly interview style conversation on Iranian politics, society, culture.

00:35:44.360 We talk about these issues, women's rights, human rights.

00:35:47.900 And we try to go beyond just your average five minute mainstream media segment,

00:35:54.300 which mostly is about the nuclear program and the nuclear issue,

00:35:57.900 and try to bring in feature experts that know so much about their field,

00:36:03.760 but also you don't necessarily see them as your everyday commentator on mainstream media.

00:36:12.800 And yes, so the podcast is available on major platforms,

00:36:16.420 Apple, Spotify, Google, CastBox, I think around 10 or 12 platforms.

00:36:22.460 It's also available on anchor.fm slash the Iran podcast.

00:36:27.420 That's the main link where they can go and see all the platforms that's available or just search the Iran podcast on their favorite podcast app.

00:36:35.560 I'm also very active on Twitter at Negar Murtazavi, where I share all of my interviews, a lot of the information and also podcast episodes.

00:36:44.420 So, and just also great outlets that are covering the news in Persian and also in English and some organizations and NGOs and activists that are trying to bring this issue and keep the reporting alive in a global stage.

00:37:03.960 I am in complete awe of the bravery of these women risking their lives to fight for change in Iran.

00:37:10.080 and Iranian women deserve to be heard.

00:37:12.960 So let's keep sharing their stories 1.00

00:37:14.760 and amplifying their voices

00:37:16.080 because solidarity is global

00:37:18.780 and their voices are powerful.

00:37:23.840 If you're looking for ways to support the show,

00:37:26.340 check out our merch store at tangodi.com slash store.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - September 30, 2022

Women are fighting for change in Iran after the death of Mahsa Amini

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