00:00:53.240and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them.
00:00:58.760I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are The Survivor Files.
00:01:02.380Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.
00:01:09.920These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.
00:01:13.740Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:01:21.360If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.
00:01:27.100Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:01:35.740Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.
00:02:10.620I am back, and I wanted to share a few quick updates with you.
00:02:13.920I'm so excited to say that we're going to be back with new weekly episodes for our new season dropping in just a few weeks, and I cannot wait.
00:02:20.440But in the meantime, I just had to come back in your earbuds because I just finished that new
00:02:25.380Amazon Prime documentary, Lula Rich, and I am dying to talk about it. So for those of you who
00:02:30.900don't know, Lula Rich is a documentary all about LuLaRoe, the multi-level marketing scheme that
00:02:36.640sold leggings and big dreams of successful entrepreneurship to millions of millennial
00:02:41.540women across the country. But basically, it was too good to be true because it turned out to be
00:02:46.160a total scam. And truly, there is nothing I love more on this planet than a documentary about a
00:02:52.120scam. So later this week, we'll have a very special episode featuring Roberta Blevins,
00:02:57.480the former LuLaRoe mentor turned multi-level marketing awareness advocate featured heavily
00:03:02.540in the documentary. And hearing Roberta's story and all the other women's stories in the LuLaRoe
00:03:07.640documentary really got me thinking about the kinds of societal conditions for women that allowed for
00:03:12.940these women to get scammed by LuLaRoe. You know, we basically live in a world where if you're a
00:03:17.480working mom, there just is not a lot of support. It's a world of precarity and scarcity. But at
00:03:23.680the same time, we also live in a world that tells women that we need to do it all. We have to be0.62
00:03:28.320hashtag girl bosses, you know, be successful entrepreneurs, raise our families, be good
00:03:33.120partners, while also being expected to advertise how great of a job we're doing at doing all of
00:03:39.820that incompatible stuff on a picture-perfect, meticulously curated Instagram feed. It is way
00:03:46.400too much, and it creates the kind of conditions that can really lead to women being easy prey1.00
00:03:51.020for scams like LuLaRoe. Conditions like feeling like you have to be perfect all the time on1.00
00:03:55.320social media or advertising or branding yourself all the time on social media. Conditions like
00:03:59.760feeling like you have to do it all and conditions that lead to burnout. So ahead of our episode
00:04:04.700this week, breaking down LuLaRoe and the documentary LuLaRich, I wanted to revisit my
00:04:09.680conversation with Anne Helen Peterson, author of Can't Even, How Millennials Became the Burnout
00:04:14.420Generation. And if you just can't get enough of Anne and I, you can check us both out at Unfinished
00:04:19.980Live, where I will be doing my very first ever live taping of There Are No Girls on the Internet.
00:04:25.240Unfinished Live is a convening of technologists, journalists, artists, and changemakers in person
00:04:30.380at The Shed in New York City, and happening virtually on September 23rd and 24th.
00:04:35.480It's going to be two days of talks about how we can all use ethical tech to build a fairer
00:04:39.520economy and a stronger democracy alongside the leading mind shaping that future.
00:04:44.460I'll be there alongside other speakers like Anne Helen Peterson, Charlie Worzel of Galaxy
00:04:48.860Brain, Safiya Noble, author of Algorithms of Oppression, and Glitch CEO Anil Desh.
00:04:53.680Just go to live.unfinished.com and use promo code TANGOTI for more information.
00:04:58.260this is going to be a little bit different of an episode than what we usually do
00:05:03.280because things aren't normal and i don't feel normal and you probably don't feel normal either
00:05:08.760if you're anything like me a combination of never-ending depressing news irl events and
00:05:15.280connections being replaced with more time sitting in front of a computer and the overall creeping
00:05:20.360feeling of mounting instability has left you feeling drained exhausted distracted unmotivated
00:05:26.500and burnt out. In her viral BuzzFeed essay called How Millennials Became the Burnout
00:05:31.480Generation, Anne Helen Peterson writes, if exhaustion means going to the point where
00:05:36.160you can't go any further, burnout means reaching that point and pushing yourself to keep going,
00:05:41.880whether for days, weeks, or years. Burnout isn't just one thing, it's everything. For weeks,
00:05:49.040I've had a list of things to do that I just can't seem to get done. They roll over to the next week
00:05:53.540and I tell myself I'll do them then, but I don't.
00:05:56.340I've had a package in the corner of my room
00:11:52.280Something that you write about in your piece that I didn't even, I did not even really
00:11:56.200notice I was doing it until I read your piece was the way that, so not only do we have to
00:12:01.460have our jobs look cool on social media, but we also have to sort of be constantly using
00:12:06.760social media to brand ourselves in a kind of way.
00:12:09.440And so even if you are not working, what you're posting on social media, you know, if you're a journalist, you want to show you want to use Twitter to show that you're with it, that you're smart, that you're reading good things and that you're influencing others to read good things and have good takes.
00:12:23.940But that is actually work. And so it sort of creates this weird thing where your leisure time and your work time are kind of blended because you have to be branding yourself, even though that's not work that you're necessarily being paid for.
00:12:35.860it kind of we've kind of just blurred these lines of what is and isn't work and that we're always
00:12:41.540sort of working and it's fucking exhausting yes well the way i think of it is that like work
00:12:47.080the contemporary like feeling of work like it just seeps into every corner of your life0.87
00:12:52.820and when we don't have very good boundaries about like the space between work and non-work
00:12:58.260that makes it easier for it to slip into like oh i just woke up in the morning i'm gonna roll over
00:13:04.320and open up my phone and check my email right now at 6 a.m. Right. Or I'm like feeding my kids and
00:13:12.140I'm just going to like casually scroll through my Slack messages. It just slips into all of those
00:13:17.360places. And of course, the pandemic has has made that slipperiness even more so. Yeah. How do you
00:13:25.140think the pandemic has really made this worse? I know I was reading a piece earlier that said that
00:13:29.900the time that we have saved by commuting by people who, you know, work at home now,
00:13:35.680we've just filled that with more work. We haven't filled that with leisure time or rest or something
00:13:39.660else. We've just used that time, however much that time that would have been that we would
00:13:43.500be commuting to an office. That's just more work time now. Yes, absolutely. Like everyone I know
00:13:49.140who has recuperated a commute time by having to be at home, they are not like using it to,
00:13:57.620oh, I'm just like having some quiet reading time or I'm meditating or I'm trying to be really
00:14:03.100present with my kids, you know, any of those things that like our best selves would want to
00:14:07.520devote that time to. Instead, we're just pushing more work into it. And this certainly happened to
00:14:13.820me when I moved to Montana in 2017. You know, I was like, oh, I'm going to have so much more time
00:14:21.440to be outside. Beautiful Montana. Like it's going to be amazing. I'm not going to be on the train
00:14:26.860all the time, like work from home, going to be great. And instead I just worked more than I had
00:14:31.720worked in years. So being in beautiful, big sky Montana didn't make you feel less burnt out?
00:14:38.080I mean, in some ways, right? Like I, for me, one of the hard things, the like daily hard things
00:14:44.380about living in the city was that like, just from the way that I grew up, I grew up in rural Idaho,
00:14:49.480like being out of the city and in outdoor spaces is like very nourishing and replenishing to me.
00:14:56.220And it was so hard to find that like, I mean, I love the parks in New York. They're great. I love parks just in general. Fantastic. They are not the same as like being in the middle of nowhere. And it was just, you know, I didn't have a car. It was just so hard to get into those spaces from New York.
00:15:13.200So I did have that like available, you know, to me in Montana on a daily basis and especially
00:17:36.640The weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:17:47.380I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.
00:17:54.500I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.
00:17:58.040From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:18:04.020It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.
00:18:11.960Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.
00:18:21.100Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
00:19:59.820as we are experiencing them with future captions
00:20:02.800and to conceive of travel as worthwhile
00:20:04.540only when documented for public consumption.
00:20:07.820And my God, that really, I mean, it's true.
00:20:12.720Sometimes I feel like I cannot have an experience
00:20:16.100if it is not filtered through social media0.98
00:20:18.300and that this sounds really fucked up,0.71
00:20:20.400But that at times it's almost as if if it's not on social media, did it even really happen?0.96
00:20:26.040Like if I have a lovely experience in the woods or a lovely experience while camping or hiking and I'm the only person who knows that it happened, did it even really happen?
00:20:36.500Yeah, absolutely. Right. And of course it happened because what actually matters is how it made you feel.
00:20:43.320but I think we've gotten so distanced from that like the only way to know how it made us feel is
00:20:50.240how we're able to present it and if you're like oh I didn't get any good photos of that you know
00:20:54.880that's such a like it doesn't matter right what actually matters is the time that you spent with
00:20:59.200other people the time you spent by yourself in like a beautiful space but somehow for it to
00:21:05.700to seem important to seem like it was worth our time not working we have to make frame it in a
00:21:12.740certain way for public consumption. Right. And another thing that you write about that I really
00:21:17.260like is the way that we've kind of, our hobbies now need to be framed through that kind of
00:21:22.740framework. Like you write about how, you know, when you started gardening as a hobby, if you
00:21:27.680couldn't make your garden look nice enough, quote unquote, nice enough for social media, it's a
00:21:31.800little, it feels like you didn't really do it. And, you know, I'm a podcaster. I mostly do it
00:21:36.040because that's a medium that I love, but I feel this pressure to sort of, you know, be using the
00:21:41.640podcast to, or using the medium to sort of like pitch myself as a product instead of just like
00:21:47.080exploring a medium that I love. And I feel like we've gotten to a place where even the things
00:21:52.780that we're meant to be doing for leisure are kind of viewed through this lens of either A,
00:21:57.940having them be some sort of side hustle because you can't just, you know, do something to do it.
00:22:02.520It has to be a business entity or B, that we're doing it only to be consumed by others on social
00:22:09.680media. And it really, it kind of robs us of this opportunity for actual reflective leisure time.
00:22:17.740Yeah, totally. I think for reflective leisure time, which, you know, I oftentimes, there's
00:22:22.820like different kinds of leisure and everyone has to know what is nourishing for them. And some of
00:22:27.440us, like we've forgotten, right? Like we've spent so much time mediating it that you're like,
00:22:33.300what do I actually like right like if you if you're only doing it for yourself what what do
00:22:39.840you want to do and that's that's hard to recover I think um and then it also it robs you of
00:22:47.680you know reflection just in terms of like change you know I've thought a lot about
00:22:52.740some of the frustration that people have about what to post about Black Lives Matter right like0.85
00:22:59.680do I like okay so the black the black square is wrong but what should I post is this being too
00:23:06.220much is this not being enough like if if I'm a black person do people look to me to like
00:23:11.380figure out what I'm posting and are they like weirded out if I'm not posting there's just so
00:23:16.480much compulsion instead of people actually trying to figure out what would it actually look like to
00:23:21.000be an ally right yeah it's funny that you mentioned this I felt so much I don't want to say anxiety I
00:23:28.420felt so much something let's just use the word tension even though that doesn't even feel like
00:23:32.820the right word in the moment that we had around Black Lives Matter and racial reckoning a with
00:23:39.120people asking me like oh I posted this do you think it's right and then be the feeling of being
00:23:45.720sort of like like looked to for you know a model of what people should or shouldn't be posting
00:23:53.420I felt so much sort of tension and anxiety around that, that opening, opening Instagram or opening my social media, just it added this, you know, for an already fraught moment for me as a black woman, it added this, this extra level of just tension and, and anxiety that I really couldn't navigate to the point where I was just like, I'm not going to engage with this online.
00:24:16.680Like I will, I will use the platforms that I feel comfortable using, but I can't, I can't, this is, I can't show up like this online. It's just too draining.
00:24:24.860Yes. Yes. Like you're trying to deal with like what's actually happening in the world. And then you have to drain, deal with like the secondary annoyances.
00:24:33.480Like even if you're not intending to like sign on and be annoyed, like there is just things that people are going to be doing that are like going to be, like you said, tension.
00:24:43.580Like it's going to create this tension that you don't actually need.
00:25:01.040Like I, in my day job, I work for a feminist organization that was very much involved in,
00:25:06.960you know, a lot of the movement for Black Lives stuff.
00:25:08.660So I know, I know that I was like doing the work there.
00:25:10.820I know that I was showing up at protests and like helping where I could. I also going out physically
00:25:16.960in protest for protests was a little bit tough for me because I'm immunocompromised. And so that
00:25:20.560was the whole thing. And so once I told myself, you know, I know in my real life where I stand
00:25:27.140and what I'm doing. And if anybody thinks anything good or bad about what I have or have not posted
00:25:33.920on social media, that is their problem. Reminding myself of that constantly and constantly and
00:25:38.820constantly, like, that was the only way that I could show up in a way that felt not shitty.
00:25:44.820Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, right? Like, you were figuring it out.
00:25:48.540Like, you were actually figuring it out for yourself, instead of figuring it out,
00:25:52.800like, vis-a-vis your reactions to other people's social media accounts, right? Like, that to me
00:25:57.860is really difficult for a lot of people to arrive at. They're so out of practice at, like,
00:26:03.960authentically figuring out their stance and how they want to position themselves. Does that make
00:26:08.660sense it makes so much sense and i think like like you said right now because of the pandemic
00:26:14.200and because of the difficulty that some people have who would want to show up in person for
00:26:20.400for a march or a demonstration or something like and then they just physically cannot
00:26:24.400um i that a lot of those messages get mixed and so you feel a compulsion like i need to somehow
00:26:31.620signal that i want to be there and so how do you signal it without overly signaling it
00:26:37.680so I mean I think like being especially like people who are how do I put this um
00:26:47.340I think spending some time with yourself to actually figure out you know do how do I perform
00:26:54.620in a way that actually expresses my allyhood instead of or like my devotion to this cause
00:27:01.440instead of thinking about how do I signal my devotion to this cause does that make sense
00:27:06.720Definitely. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, you put that so well. I was just reading the part of your essay that's about Slack and how so much of Slack is like signaling that we are working and not actually doing the work.
00:27:20.880So it's like, oh, I'm thumbs up being my co-workers comment or I'm dropping in a link.
00:27:25.880Social media has and all of these different technologies have given us ways to signal that we care about the cause or signal that we're paying attention and checked in without actually be like doing the thing.
00:27:41.380Well, and that's it just if you take up all this time signaling instead of actually doing like that, it evacuates like it evacuates your actions of any sort of intent or power, I think.
00:27:55.280And so whether that's Slack, like you don't have time to work because you're so busy trying to show that you're working on Slack.
00:28:01.880I cannot tell you how great it is not to be on Slack.
00:28:06.360Like, obviously, I miss like chatting with my co workers. But when I left BuzzFeed in August, like suddenly there wasn't that thing that made me feel like, oh, I guess I should like I haven't said anything for like half an hour. I guess I should like say something. It's just compulsory. And that is, I think, what's oftentimes frustrating. Is that like, oh, yes, I was working. I didn't need to do a thumbs up, like you said.
00:28:30.120yeah and I think as as like creative professionals it can be so fraught because you know nobody just
00:28:37.620sits down in front of their computer and like a perfect draft just spills out of you in the you
00:28:43.160know in 20 minutes or something but I do feel like the time that you spend thinking and sitting in
00:28:48.060front of your computer and like ideating or whatever that's all part of it but it can feel
00:28:51.860kind of fraught it gives me this like anxiety where it's like oh I have to like overperform
00:28:56.520to show that I work, that I was actually working that and not just goofing off.
00:28:59.860And it is kind of a part of me like telling myself that I'm not goofing off,
00:29:03.840even though somewhere deep down I know it.
00:29:05.580It's like this constant thing that's such an added distraction0.99
00:29:08.700from just getting my fucking work done.0.98
00:29:11.500Well, and I think we oftentimes told ourselves stories about0.99
00:29:15.940work has to look like a certain sort of thing, right?
00:29:20.340Like instead of work can also look like staring into space.
00:31:43.120We grew up in a Black Southern family. And for them, they were like, you know, we want our kids to not, you know, quote unquote, become statistics. And the way to achieve that is through college and a stable job.
00:31:58.100And so the same way that upper middle class white parent who was interested in their kid going to an Ivy League college, it's sort of the same, even though the cultural and racial, you know, reasonings for getting there are different, it's sort of the same thing where this parenting then sets kids up for this idea that like the most important thing is getting a stable job, going to college, that pathway.
00:32:21.780And it really can lead to kids being raised almost as little adults.
00:32:40.460And our parents generation, you know, a lot of them had reached that that middle class
00:32:47.020stability, some semblance of that middle class stability, sometimes for the first time in
00:32:51.640their family's history and sometimes that was through going to college and getting a job after
00:32:56.780that and sometimes it was through like getting a good union job um and and having stability that
00:33:01.820way and so the the goal is okay well I don't want my kids to fall back from where I've come
00:33:07.320and so you try to imprint all of these strategies for success instability and and you know sometimes0.98
00:33:15.380too and this I found this in my interviews like sometimes people's parents didn't give a shit0.97
00:33:20.900Right. Like they were like, whatever, you'll figure it out. But the kids themselves really picked up through osmosis, you know, from their kids, their peers, from their peers, parents, from their teachers, that that was the only way that they had to turn themselves into a walking resume, even if their parents didn't care.0.91
00:33:38.420Yeah, I definitely feel that this is like reinforced both explicitly and implicitly. Like we're just told that this is how you're meant to live life. Like you're meant to, your job is meant to be your everything. Your identity should be this job and you should be working 24-7.
00:33:56.300And when you're not working, you should be feeling guilty about not working or, you know, turn whatever, you know, if you if you're a baker, if you like enjoy cooking on the weekends, that should be a business or an Instagram page or something that you can never just not be.
00:34:09.800You can never be not optimized for working or something that looks like working.
00:34:15.320Yeah. And well, and think about that, though.
00:34:17.240Like, what was it, you know, my, uh, like my mom would make bread on the weekends, but
00:34:22.960she wasn't like, oh, I need to try to like hustle on the side to like make a couple extra0.99
00:34:28.820And what it was is that like, they were able to, you know, pay off my dad's student loans.
00:34:34.140Like they were able to buy a house in North Idaho.
00:34:36.400Like they weren't struggling constantly to cover the costs of raising a family.
00:34:43.080Whereas because of incredible increases in the cost of living, the cost of child care, the cost of health care, so many families that have like dual income streams are still struggling and are like, OK, I got to make an extra fifty dollars every weekend by making bread.
00:34:59.860Yeah, that's something that I think you do a nice job of illustrating is how in our generation, millennials and older millennials, like a lot of us graduated into the Great Recession, you know, the dot com burst.
00:35:13.060Now the instability of covid. I feel like so many of us, we have never had the luxury of making choices about our life based on security.
00:35:22.660Like every every professional choice I've made has been based on scarcity. It's been based on my back is against the wall. Some calamity is happening that's completely out of my control. And I have to make my professional choices based on this scarcity. And we have no idea sort of what it looks like to be making a life at a time of stability. I don't even really I can't even know like grasp that.
00:35:45.380No, you're so true. And I think like, especially people who work in more creative fields, like
00:35:52.400there's this expectation to the like, the company you work for is going to fold. Like, you know,
00:35:58.440you're not going to have any sort of stable job. Like, you can't expect a job to endure
00:36:03.660in the way that a lot of our parents like, started one job and stayed at that job for
00:36:08.820many decades. Or like my grandfather worked at one company his entire life, right? And I think
00:36:15.360And I think that that overarching precarity, so much of it, you know, it comes from entering into the economy as adults during the first great recession. And then also just like expecting the other shoe to drop. Like most millennials I know are not surprised by the pandemic. They're like, we're just waiting for everything to collapse.
00:36:35.500And to me, that shows a psychology that is conditioned towards precarity, right, is conditioned towards never feeling like you have a stability.
00:36:43.820And what that does, I think, over the course of, you know, many millions of people over the course of a generation, and I think it's going to affect Gen Z as well, is it makes it hard to to be confident, to experiment, to take risks.
00:36:58.560You know, like when people talk about what having a universal basic income does or even having health insurance that's not tied to employment is what it does is it allows you to make decisions that make life easier for you, right?
00:37:12.700That make it so that you can find a job that doesn't feel shitty and exploitative.
00:37:19.040It allows you to go back to school if you want to.
00:37:22.600You know, there are all sorts of things that having even just that modicum of stability permits for people.
00:37:28.560And we are so deeply unfamiliar with that.
00:37:31.300So how do we get to a place where instability is not the internalized norm for an entire
00:37:38.340I mean, create a lot more social safety nets.
00:37:41.600So the big thing that's changed between our parents and grandparents generation and now
00:37:46.840is that so many of those social safety nets have been eroded.
00:37:50.480And I'm talking about like, you know, pretty basic things like the fact that we have legislators have just largely defunded so much funding for public education.
00:38:02.520And so like because you have so much student debt, that makes it harder to, you know, if you lose a job, you're like, well, going to default on these loans. Right.
00:38:10.700But then also just thinking about things like funding for some funding that has never existed, but funding for things like universal pre-K or even before pre-K, mandatory paternity leave, universal health care, like things that are not alien to most developed countries across the world.
00:38:35.380These are things that actually make life feel like you're not conditioned to precarity.
00:38:40.360But I think that we are so obsessed with this myth of the individual.
00:38:44.300And somehow, if the individual can work harder, then you'll get out of precarity.
00:38:49.380But this is why millennials are having these sort of existential crises, certainly myself included, is you get to this point of your late 30s, right?
00:38:56.840Like the oldest millennials are 39 and 40.
00:38:59.500And you're like, wait, I thought by this point, I would have found some stability.
00:39:05.380And you're like, wait a second. Like, I have kids or I have been, you know, been in the workforce for almost 20 years. Like, where's that stability? Why isn't it here yet? And becoming deeply disillusioned and saying like, well, this is just broken. We need to fix this entirely.
00:39:24.480oh my gosh it's like i i go back and watch these movies that i loved in the 90s when i watched
00:39:30.980them when i was young and all of the main characters they'd be like 25 and having some
00:39:35.740like fantastic job or like having a lot of existential dread the fact by the fact that
00:39:39.780they're not you know that they're turning 28 and they don't have their life together and here i am
00:39:44.500in my like mid-30s thinking like like oh we thought we were gonna have stable jobs stable
00:39:50.400partners own houses by the time we were like 25 like that like that was the the framework we were
00:39:56.440working with what is the what isn't it like my best friend's wedding she's weird they're like
00:54:49.560or you can't find any motivation, that's okay.
00:54:52.920None of us are operating under normal circumstances
00:54:55.220and you shouldn't expect yourself to perform like we are.
00:54:59.100How have you been dealing with burnout?
00:55:01.340Hit us up at hello at tingoti.com and let us know.
00:55:06.640If you're interested in issues like culture and tech and media, and you probably are if you're listening to this podcast, don't miss Unfinished Live.
00:55:13.200You can hear Anne Helen Peterson in conversation with Charlie Worzel on the future of work.
00:55:17.280Sophia Noble, author of Algorithms of Oppression on Equity in Tech.
00:55:23.100And Neil Dash with a rallying cry for a free digital future, all at Unfinished Live on September 23rd and 24th.
00:55:29.820Happening live at The Shed in New York.
00:55:32.080And for those of you who can't attend in person, don't worry, we got you.
00:55:35.240The talks and live podcasts, including our very first ever live Tango detaping, will be available to stream virtually as well.
00:55:42.600It's a great opportunity to learn about how we can all use ethical tech to build a fairer economy and a stronger democracy, alongside the leading mind shaping that future.
00:55:50.840The in-person experience includes two days of talks by leading thinkers, live podcast recordings like my own, an interactive audio experiment, clubhouse conversations, an immersive art installation, networking opportunities, and more.
00:56:02.220Just go to live.unfinished.com and use promo code TANGOTI.
00:56:05.780That's T-A-N-G-O-T-I, and I cannot wait to see y'all there.
00:56:14.280Got a story about an interesting thing in tech or just want to say hi?
00:56:17.640You can reach us at hello at tangoti.com.
00:56:20.060You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangoti.com.
00:56:23.500There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd.
00:56:26.240It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
00:56:28.960Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.
00:56:31.020Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer.
00:56:33.640Michael Amato is our contributing producer.