There Are No Girls on the Internet - Why We’re Fighting About Self Checkout – Best of TANGOTI

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00:02:21.800 Okay, so it's the holiday season,

00:02:23.720 and that means we're all spending more time in stores

00:02:26.280 than we'd probably like to be spending.

00:02:28.280 And inevitably, that means coming face-to-face with self-checkout.

00:02:32.160 Now, I hate self-checkout, but producer Mike kind of likes it.

00:02:37.020 So today, we're visiting a conversation that we had

00:02:40.440 about our very different feelings on scanning our own groceries

00:02:43.740 and what self-checkout says about convenience, control,

00:02:47.700 and who's really doing the work.

00:02:53.960 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio

00:02:56.900 and Unbossed Creative.

00:03:02.080 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.

00:03:04.820 okay so mike as you know in our last news roundup you and i got a little bit heated about our

00:03:13.320 respective thoughts on so self-checkout kiosks in retail stores i was surprised i thought

00:03:18.980 certainly everybody hates these things as much as i do i was surprised to find that was not the case

00:03:24.300 you had a different position so my position was that those self-checkout kiosks in target walmart

00:03:30.500 grocery stores, whatever. They generally need to involve a human to work properly. I don't think

00:03:36.660 they're that much more efficient or that much more fast. And I also didn't think the old system of

00:03:41.980 just human cashiers was that bad. Although I have come to sort of update that position since hearing

00:03:47.380 the feedback that listeners have. So that is my position. When I sat down to do that episode,

00:03:52.440 I was surprised to find that you have a completely different position. Would you like to articulate

00:03:57.240 sure it's not completely different because your first point that the machines require a human to

00:04:02.520 operate them we agree on that i think everyone agrees that a human still needs to be involved

00:04:08.120 even if it's a self-checkout however we disagree uh that i think that those self-checkout machines

00:04:16.540 uh or some sort of self-checkout system have a place in polite society uh and that they are not

00:04:24.740 inherently bad. They are not destroying, you know, the fabric of what makes us who we are.

00:04:30.400 They are just a useful tool that can help us check out with our items.

00:04:37.520 So that is something that I want to get into today because that episode was just a, you know,

00:04:42.340 one story of a larger news roundup with other stories. And so I wanted to revisit the issue

00:04:46.620 and highlight a few of the angles that we didn't have time to get into. And also

00:04:50.620 hear from some of you listeners on your thoughts on self-checkouts versus human checkouts.

00:04:55.840 The thing that you just said about whether or not self-checkout is sort of tearing at the fabric of

00:05:00.700 who we are as people, for whatever reason, I realized after doing some deep thought that

00:05:05.720 I carry that as like a worldview. And it's a worldview that I carried completely unchallenged

00:05:12.480 until doing this episode. Do you know what I mean? I just automatically assumed, well,

00:05:16.360 certainly this is a sign of society and decay. And doing this episode was the first time that

00:05:22.200 I really had to step back and challenge why that was an automatic assumption on my part.

00:05:26.620 Yeah, I agree. I also brought a lot of unchallenged assumptions to this conversation.

00:05:32.320 And I really appreciate the listeners who wrote in because some of them had some really like

00:05:36.220 thoughtful, insightful things to say that I hadn't thought about. And I think you hadn't

00:05:39.820 thought about. And what are the other interesting things about this story is, like you said,

00:05:43.740 It was just one story of a news roundup, like kind of a throwaway.

00:05:47.560 But like it turned out that you and I both had pretty strong opinions about it and listeners did as well.

00:05:53.840 And I think this might be the segment that has received like the most listener feedback of anything that we've ever done on this show since launching it in 2020, which is surprising because it's such a I don't know.

00:06:10.260 I don't want to say a non-issue, but like, you know, at the presidential debate stage, they're not talking about self-checkout machines.

00:06:16.960 You know, they should be. Maybe they should. Maybe they'd win some votes, but maybe it's a dangerous issue.

00:06:22.360 I don't know. But it's not like life or death. Right.

00:06:25.640 There's something sort of mundane about it. But for some reason, we all have a lot to say about it.

00:06:31.900 And I guess I've been thinking about why that is. You know, is it the universe and universality of it?

00:06:37.400 like every person can relate to everybody buys groceries the question of which line do i get in

00:06:42.180 is just one of a thousand tiny decisions that we have to make every day that is like sort of

00:06:47.280 exhausting and like sort of low stakes but also like choosing wrong could mean the difference of

00:06:53.340 like 10 minutes of standing in line which is like the worst thing that could possibly happen to a

00:06:57.520 person when they're standing in line so there's a lot here i felt so strongly about this issue

00:07:02.520 that I was willing to pull on my boots and go out into the snow at 6 p.m. just to prove you wrong

00:07:07.840 about my self-checkout feelings. And yeah, I completely agree with you. We've never gotten

00:07:13.460 this level of passion feedback from folks of all the episodes that we've done. So let's get into

00:07:19.180 some of these issues that we didn't have time for in that episode. So one big issue that I

00:07:23.960 definitely want to start with is the fact that I didn't know this. Self-checkout aisles are not

00:07:29.240 generally very accessible. I read a story about a woman who was visually impaired and she was trying

00:07:34.640 to use the self-checkout, couldn't see the screen well enough to check out, asked for help from the

00:07:39.120 clerk, and the clerk ended up just moving her to the human checkout line instead. And so it set up

00:07:44.460 this system where shoppers with disabilities basically could not use this system at all,

00:07:49.540 which became a lawsuit. The National Federation of the Blind sued Walmart, arguing the company

00:07:54.640 had violated the Americans with Disabilities Act by excluding blind people from using the service

00:07:58.940 in the way that it was intended, independently and privately.

00:08:02.880 So a federal judge in Maryland did end up ruling in Walmart's favor.

00:08:07.280 Walmart maintained that its self-checkout system is accessible because staff are trained to help.

00:08:11.560 But if disabled customers have to ask for assistance, not only will the transaction likely take longer,

00:08:17.020 they also lose the option to keep their purchases private.

00:08:19.800 Privacy is a reason why someone might use self-checkout over a human checkout.

00:08:23.300 So this benefit of self-checkout being able to keep whatever you're buying private

00:08:28.120 is just not being offered to all shoppers equally.

00:08:31.540 This I found so interesting.

00:08:33.140 So the Food Institute spoke to Nikki Shaw,

00:08:35.580 who is the U.S. operations manager at Storm Interface,

00:08:38.580 a company that creates assistive technology products

00:08:40.960 at Taco Bell and McDonald's.

00:08:42.760 And Nikki said,

00:08:44.260 having the option to check out independently

00:08:46.060 is unfortunately not available to all customers

00:08:48.400 because of inaccessible point of sale,

00:08:50.420 which is like the machines that do the checking out.

00:08:52.520 By denying some customers this option,

00:08:55.580 what message is this retailer sending to those customers?

00:08:58.120 I think that's such a good point. Like, it just sounds like accessibility issues can be a big thing with self-checkout if not everybody can use them equally, which it sounds like is what's going on.

00:09:08.340 Yeah, that is a good point. We're thinking about it. And, you know, I have to wonder if the companies who make these devices and systems were being more mindful of accessibility, would that lead to devices that work better for everyone, right?

00:09:26.040 That's often something that is seen in, I know, at least like software design, that when you really focus on making things accessible for a particular population that has specific needs, the benefits are much broader than those people.

00:09:41.220 And you end up with a nicer, better functioning system for everyone.

00:09:44.820 Absolutely.

00:09:45.740 And also people with disabilities should be able to use them.

00:09:49.940 It's interesting to think about what that might look like.

00:09:51.860 Yeah, but I really agree with Nikki Shaw that are retailers saying that only certain shoppers get the benefit of privacy at self-checkout?

00:10:03.560 And I think that's a fair question to ask.

00:10:05.400 Like, they probably wouldn't say that because they would be admitting that they're violating the Americans with Disabilities Act.

00:10:12.160 But it's a fair question to ask.

00:10:13.980 Like, some shoppers get the ability to use self-checkout to privately check out and others just don't.

00:10:19.120 Is that what you're saying?

00:10:19.700 So we talked in that episode about how self-checkout might increase theft.

00:10:24.440 However, we really didn't get into kind of my biggest concern around theft.

00:10:30.380 Like retailer theft is not an issue that I feel deeply strong about.

00:10:35.060 It doesn't like move me.

00:10:36.400 However, when I was talking about theft, I don't think we got into it.

00:10:39.460 One of the things I wanted to talk about is the potential risk to shoppers being accused

00:10:44.740 of theft from using self-checkout, even if they didn't actually steal anything or just

00:10:49.060 like mis-scanned or forgot to scan something legitimately by mistake, right? So the reason

00:10:55.580 why I want to bring this up, I'll say this, take this with a massive grain of salt because I did

00:11:00.100 see it on TikTok and like, I wasn't able to, you know, confirm everything this TikToker said.

00:11:05.760 However, I did see this TikTok from Carrie Jerrigan, who is a criminal defense attorney

00:11:10.740 and a TikTok personality who warned that she doesn't think that anybody should use self-checkout

00:11:14.820 because it is very easy to be accused of retail theft even if you just made a mistake or didn't

00:11:20.620 steal anything at all. Basically, she says that because people who are intentionally stealing

00:11:25.200 from self-checkout are really good at it, like they've really sharp honed their tactics, and I

00:11:31.240 guess it's difficult to catch at this point. Because of that, retailers have no sympathy for

00:11:36.460 anybody who makes just a common mistake with their self-checkout. Retailers are essentially

00:11:42.060 focusing on people who maybe forgot to scan that big thing of Cokes that you put under the

00:11:46.560 shopping cart or whatever, or people who legitimately didn't steal anything,

00:11:51.160 and then blaming those people for inventory loss. So this attorney says that retailers

00:11:55.680 will later check their inventory, and if they come up short, they will go after people who

00:11:59.640 made a legit transaction of that item. She says, so they will begin watching hours and hours of

00:12:04.860 video to see the last person who checked out with the Mario Lego set because they're two

00:12:09.060 mario lego sets short and for some reason they pinpoint that they think you did it and because

00:12:14.280 of who these big box stores are they usually have to present very little evidence to get an

00:12:18.920 affidavit for warrant signed the charges that could land you up to a year in jail get filed

00:12:23.480 and then you are fighting for your life trying to determine what day you were at walmart and what all

00:12:27.920 you bought i know that like i immediately crumple my receipt up and put it in my pocket of my winter

00:12:35.100 code and then like hang it up in storage forever. So if somebody ever was like, can you provide a

00:12:39.900 receipt for what you bought at Walmart two months ago? The answer would be absolutely not. I would

00:12:44.740 not be able to provide any proof of that transaction. Yeah, definitely not. I would think

00:12:50.640 they were joking if they asked me. Right. And so that TikTok was probably the first time that I

00:12:56.900 ever started thinking deeply about self-checkout and sort of like what it means. I don't have any

00:13:04.440 data on this, but it wouldn't be a massive surprise to me to find that that kind of enforcement was

00:13:09.960 not being equally applied. I would have no trouble believing that some people are being looked at a

00:13:16.000 little bit harder when it comes to that kind of thing. I also should say, you know, in case folks

00:13:20.460 don't know, like when you do check out with self-checkout, like you are being video recorded

00:13:24.940 the entire time. So, you know, they definitely can pull back video footage. And I'm sure it

00:13:29.660 probably wouldn't be hard for a Target or a Walmart to be like, oh, we think this person

00:13:33.560 might have stolen something and then provide video evidence that doesn't really show anything

00:13:38.720 to get that warrant signed. Yeah, I mean, I definitely assume when I'm in Target that I'm

00:13:44.260 being like videotaped all the time, especially at self-checkout. I would be so shocked if they were

00:13:50.680 to contact me like weeks or months after leaving. That seems so surprising. I'm curious how often

00:13:57.620 that happens. So I was too, you know, I just saw this one TikTok from a lawyer. I did confirm she

00:14:03.460 is a lawyer, but I was like, is this really happening? So a deep Google search did bring

00:14:08.640 up a few posts of people on legal message boards claiming that they were accused of stealing from

00:14:13.900 using self-checkout when they hadn't actually stole, and that they ended up needing to deal

00:14:18.700 with lawyers' fees, and it took lots of time for them to sort it out. So it does kind of seem like

00:14:24.340 this might be an issue that's happening. And ultimately, this kind of gets at one of my

00:14:28.980 biggest beefs with self-checkout the implication that me as the shopper should be the one who is

00:14:34.580 tasked with its responsibility in in making sure that everything is scanned correctly and like i'm 0.98

00:14:39.680 paying the amount i'm supposed to pay like i know that people like to shit on retail employees but 0.63

00:14:44.520 i have been a retail employee it is important work those jobs exist for a reason and so like 0.93

00:14:49.700 i don't know that we should be so quick to just outsource those jobs to the very same people that

00:14:54.720 We like can't even trust to put their shopping carts away consistently when they go grocery shopping and just trust that this that the populace is going to be able to do this correctly.

00:15:04.200 Like I'm not trained in it. I might be distracted. I'm not going in thinking, you know, listening carefully to these beeps and what actually gets beeped and put in the bag.

00:15:13.840 That is a that is something that is that if I do incorrectly, I could wind up with legal fees and court costs or whatever.

00:15:20.640 That does not sound like a great setup to me.

00:15:23.060 yeah uh it doesn't but you know again i i am curious how many cases there are like this where

00:15:30.440 someone legitimately made some sort of mistake or error where they thought they had paid for a thing

00:15:36.020 but they didn't pay for it and then they end up like getting charged with theft maybe it maybe it

00:15:42.940 is happening a lot i don't know but i guess a lot of this this debate again circles back in the most

00:15:48.500 low stakes way possible to like what kind of society do we want to live in and it doesn't

00:15:55.180 seem completely far-fetched to me that like adult shoppers should understand that like you have to

00:16:04.100 pay for the things that you want to take out of the store and like operate this machine in a way

00:16:09.560 that makes that how it goes down right like it's yeah maybe I haven't like had a training in this

00:16:15.440 software but like at the giant i've used those self checkouts like hundreds if not thousands of

00:16:21.820 times and like any other piece of software yeah it takes a little bit of like experience to try

00:16:29.160 to figure out how to work it but you know it's achievable i don't want this to devolve into

00:16:35.460 another argument i know i know every every every statement is an opportunity to get into it well

00:16:43.180 So I agree with you on the surface, right?

00:16:45.440 That like, yeah, people, you shouldn't just go into Target

00:16:48.540 and expect to just walk out with stuff that you haven't paid for.

00:16:52.440 Although like, do I really, am I really crying?

00:16:54.760 Like Target has plenty of money.

00:16:55.660 Am I really like crying tears for Target?

00:16:57.460 Whatever.

00:16:57.540 It's not like we're talking about that CVS in Columbia Heights.

00:17:01.320 That's right.

00:17:02.500 The CVS where everything's free.

00:17:04.660 Yeah, just take what you want.

00:17:05.700 Everything's free.

00:17:06.320 um but like i just think that efficiently checking out you do have to bring a level of awareness

00:17:16.340 that i don't always have when i go into a target because i'm not thinking of going into work and

00:17:21.480 so like if you're not if i i often when i shop i'm listening to music or podcasts in my headphones

00:17:26.820 i'm not necessarily listening for the beep beep beep of every item it is conceivable that you

00:17:32.860 could put something in your bag and not hear the beep. If you're like a new parent who hasn't had

00:17:38.140 any sleep and you're distracted and your phone's going off and the kid is crying, like, I don't

00:17:43.360 know that this is a widespread thing, but I do think there are scenarios where perhaps that is

00:17:48.780 a burden that a consumer who is not at work should not have to shoulder when they go in to like pick

00:17:56.520 up some items at Target. Particularly if that burden could wind up with you having legitimate

00:18:02.020 legal trouble over it yeah these are two separate issues both worthy of debate and discussion you

00:18:08.420 know is it ethical to ask shoppers to scan their own items and separately should people be

00:18:17.520 prosecuted when they make legit mistakes seems like clearly the answer that second question is

00:18:22.060 no oh yeah a thousand percent so do you remember andy rooney all the time every day i miss him so

00:18:29.800 much. So for people who don't know who Andy Rooney is, God rest his soul. Andy Rooney used to be on

00:18:34.840 60 Minutes. He had a segment that was literally just him complaining for 20 minutes. I will never

00:18:40.700 forget a segment where he just walks around a grocery store and picks up fruits that he doesn't

00:18:45.520 like and is like, cantaloupes. Who needs them? And meanwhile, I'm riveted. I'm like, oh, this is

00:18:51.100 great TV. But there is a piece in the Washington Post that could have been written by the spirit

00:18:57.220 of Andy Rooney. It is like one of those style pieces called, Dear Grocery Store Owners, I Don't

00:19:03.040 Work for You. The whole thing is snarky as hell, but this is the thing I wanted to sort of tease

00:19:07.380 out. The piece reads, Dear Grocery Store Owners, have you seen me in the break room? No. There's

00:19:12.920 a reason. I don't work for you. I don't want to work for you. I was bad at it as a middle schooler

00:19:17.320 and I'm worse now. And then he goes on to say, A lot of stores position a receipt checker to see

00:19:23.300 whether people actually paid for all the stuff they have. Wait a second, you set up this system.

00:19:28.380 You made us do all of this. So now that we've slogged our way through our temp job with zero

00:19:32.760 training, you're going to audit us? And I think that that kind of gets at something where nobody

00:19:38.600 asked your average consumer whether or not this was a dynamic they wanted to do. I guess you have

00:19:43.360 the choice when you get into the self-checkout line or the human line. Although at our target,

00:19:49.280 oftentimes if you go in there late at night, there is no human option. It's just self-checkout.

00:19:53.300 you and I both know this to be true, no? I don't know what's going on with the human

00:19:57.300 cashier lines at that target. They are a checkout option of last resort for me.

00:20:01.960 So you're like, I would never, rarely am I dealing with the human line at that specific target.

00:20:06.820 Unless something has gone wrong. Absolutely. But that thing that happens after you do self-checkout

00:20:13.160 at some big box retailers, where then you have to show them your receipt and they have to check to

00:20:17.740 see, and maybe they have to put like a little marker thing on it. That has been a source of

00:20:21.400 consternation for the public for a while. You've probably seen videos of people like refusing to

00:20:26.760 show their receipt. Apparently, from what I have read, you know, I'm no lawyer, this is not legal

00:20:30.520 advice, but you don't actually have to stop and have that interaction with the person who is like,

00:20:35.460 can I see your receipt? I think that the fact that that is a moment of frustration for so many people,

00:20:41.440 I think gets at what this Washington Post piece is talking about, that people feel like, well,

00:20:46.540 you asked me to scan out my stuff and now you don't even trust me to do it. Like either you

00:20:49.840 trust me or you don't this is one spot where you and i see eye to eye because i hate that you know

00:20:56.420 i've a i hate people like stopping me and you know having this interaction with a security person who 0.50

00:21:07.000 is acting like a cop even though they're not i hate that and then they want me to like take all

00:21:12.460 my stuff out of my bag i take a lot of care when i pack my bags and when i'm like done with the

00:21:17.480 checkout and carrying my fully packed bags, I'm like ready to carry them home. I'm not ready to

00:21:24.400 impromptu take all the contents out and show them to some security goon to check me. So I agree with

00:21:32.800 you there. I don't understand why they can't be doing that checking with all of the cameras that

00:21:36.540 they've got showing me from like five different angles while I'm checking out. Like if they

00:21:41.300 don't see me stealing something when, you know, when I'm actually doing it, why just do like these

00:21:47.120 random checks down the line don't like it. So let's talk about that because retail chains are

00:21:52.700 investing a lot of money on like very serious kind of creepy surveillance technology. And so it does

00:21:59.840 seem to with it, if you have all of this technology to then be like, and then you have to go through

00:22:04.540 this little indignity of showing me your receipt and opening your bag on top of it, it does seem

00:22:08.440 a little much. So Walmart uses what internally they call the missed scan detection, which they

00:22:14.880 say helps detect when an item lands in a shopping bag without being scanned. And so they're

00:22:19.120 basically these AI-powered visual scanners and cameras that are at both the self-checkout

00:22:24.240 register and the registers run by the store cashiers. There was at least at some point

00:22:29.300 use of facial recognition technology in Walmart. In 2022, Walmart faced a lawsuit that was seeking

00:22:35.480 class action status, alleging that Walmart violated Illinois' Biometric Privacy Act by

00:22:41.220 improperly using cameras and advanced video surveillance systems, as well as software and

00:22:45.860 databases provided by the facial recognition company Clearview AI. So Walmart's spokesperson

00:22:51.720 says that they were just testing out facial recognition technology, that they weren't

00:22:55.780 actually like rolling it out in the stores. But it does sound like all parties agree that this

00:23:01.520 facial recognition technology was being used. We've already done so many episodes on why that

00:23:06.220 technology is janky faulty racist sexist like it just don't work really is what it is and so

00:23:11.660 if that's the technology that you're kind of counting on or flirting with to deter theft 0.91

00:23:17.940 it really presents a whole host of issues because you because it's really just not really reliable

00:23:24.080 yeah facial recognition as we've talked about on a bunch of episodes is like

00:23:27.920 bad news reinforces a lot of bad disparities, certainly in this context when it's one step

00:23:37.600 away from somebody being charged with a crime. Yeah. And the point that it's a lot of money

00:23:44.240 invested in these systems, yeah, can't argue with that. And that's sort of one of my questions

00:23:51.720 slash theories is that this sounds like a lot of investment in surveillance technology. And I feel

00:23:58.600 like if this is the level of surveillance technology that you need to make self-checkout

00:24:03.240 work, then there is a problem. So first of all, logistically, I cannot imagine that the costs

00:24:10.860 of investing in that kind of technology apparatus is not being passed down to the consumer in some

00:24:16.160 way. I don't have any inside knowledge of that. I have to assume that's the case. You know how

00:24:20.360 It's now becoming clear how much retailers lied about retail theft and how much it was hurting their stores.

00:24:28.300 And I think that they did that to justify really cracking down on surveillance, really making the shopping experience worse for consumers and being like, well, it's not our fault, it's crime.

00:24:38.560 I wonder if there's some aspect of that going on here.

00:24:40.980 Like, part of me wonders if, for whatever reason, Walmart really wants to be investing in this kind of surveillance technology, and they're using self-checkout as a way to justify that.

00:24:53.900 It's like, oh, well, we have self-checkout now, that increases theft, ergo, we have to have this very involved surveillance technology in all of our stores.

00:25:02.800 I just wonder because it's such a huge investment in very serious surveillance technology that

00:25:10.280 I don't know how it makes sense to have it otherwise.

00:25:12.880 Yeah, that's a really interesting thought.

00:25:15.800 We were doing some research for this follow-up episode here.

00:25:20.360 One of the things I came across was somebody who had worked in software building a bunch

00:25:29.620 of this type of surveillance stuff that grocery stores, big box retailers could use to have

00:25:38.040 scanners and AI, trackers following people around in the store to try to reduce theft.

00:25:46.140 And they made the exact same point.

00:25:47.700 This was a person who had built those technologies, who said that all of them didn't work, were

00:25:53.240 janky, and were extremely expensive and not justified by the cost.

00:25:58.040 According to them, it was not even close. So the idea that the reason retailers are pushing for this stuff is to justify increased surveillance. We see examples all the time of people in positions of power making decisions that cost them money just so they can maintain control.

00:26:18.700 Just last week, we were talking about Anna Wintour shuttering Pitchfork, even though it was profitable, because there was rumblings of unionization, killing a powerful, well-liked brand just to maintain that control.

00:26:33.760 And so spending a bunch of money on surveillance equipment, even though it doesn't pay back in money, the owner gets to feel that level of control.

00:26:45.240 Let's take a quick break.

00:26:48.700 Transcription by CastingWords

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00:30:13.840 kind of changed anyway too right what do you think it is now it's images and words being spoken

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00:31:02.580 Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:31:13.520 And we're back.

00:31:14.440 something about self-checkout automatically to me feels like a dystopian surveillance

00:31:22.780 situation where we're getting away from what makes us humans and relying more on technology

00:31:29.560 and like part of that for me was the assumption that self-checkouts are making us lonelier or

00:31:35.700 like has something to do with the the fraying threads of society and humanity that was an

00:31:41.720 assumption that I made, not based on any kind of facts or research or reading that I'd done about

00:31:46.120 it, it just, to me, stood to reason that if we are in a loneliness epidemic, especially for older

00:31:52.460 folks, which the Surgeon General released a report about this, the threat of social isolation

00:31:56.480 recently, and like, it is a damning report. If that is happening, then certainly the rise of

00:32:01.040 technology like self-checkouts is making it worse. So is that actually the case? Well, you tell me.

00:32:06.820 I read this report in the Los Angeles Times that suggests that the U.S. is in the middle of this

00:32:11.720 loneliness and isolation epidemic, and that self-checkouts are actually worse than the

00:32:15.660 situation. The Times report talks about the value of warm, low-stakes relationships like that between

00:32:21.880 a shopper and a cashier, especially for older people. They spoke to University of Michigan

00:32:26.440 psychology professor Tony Antonucci, who said that these kinds of connections are a critical

00:32:31.500 tool for maintaining emotional well-being later in life as social circles shrink. So some supermarkets

00:32:36.880 have actually taken intentional steps to use the shopping experience at their store

00:32:40.980 to combat loneliness through chatty lines.

00:32:44.680 Jumbo, a grocery store chain in the Netherlands,

00:32:46.700 has Hutskasa, or the chatty checkout line,

00:32:50.000 for shoppers who are not in a hurry

00:32:51.440 and actually want to have a conversation with the clerk.

00:32:54.240 Jumbo's chief commercial officer explained to the conversation,

00:32:57.000 saying, many people, especially the elderly,

00:32:59.580 sometimes feel lonely.

00:33:00.800 As a family business and supermarket chain,

00:33:03.180 we're the heart of society.

00:33:04.940 Our shops are an important meeting place for many people,

00:33:07.200 and we want to play a role in identifying and reducing loneliness.

00:33:09.560 So the first of one of these lanes was so successful that the family-owned company started rolling out these chatty, slow checkout lanes in 200 of its stores.

00:33:18.420 Not only were customers really responding positively to it, but this situation also apparently appealed to the employees.

00:33:26.360 They are trained to recognize signs of loneliness and come up with local initiatives to combat social isolation.

00:33:31.760 The lanes weren't just big with older folks, but all shoppers of all ages seemed to really get a kick out of them.

00:33:36.640 So this is nice and it sounds like it's working and it sounds like it's a needed thing. And I really like hats off to Jumbo for starting this initiative. But I just don't know if a retail cashier should be shouldering the burden of staving off what sounds like a real crisis of loneliness for people.

00:33:56.600 In this Surgeon General's report on loneliness that I mentioned, the Surgeon General lays out this like six point plan for combating loneliness.

00:34:04.720 And it's things like investing more in volunteer organizations or religious groups or policies around public transit or education or physical spaces like parks and green spaces and libraries.

00:34:15.020 So like more robust public infrastructure. Yes, I love public infrastructure. However, here in the U.S., I don't think that like a polite, chatty clerk can really take the place of meaningful investment in these kinds of social goods.

00:34:29.580 Like I almost feel like I like what they're doing with these chatty lanes and it does seem like it's helping.

00:34:35.140 So I don't want to make it seem like I'm poo-pooing that.

00:34:37.600 But I think that it's a lot to ask of a retail cashier who is like their job is to ring you up and be polite.

00:34:45.620 I don't know that we should be shouldering those folks with this burden of easing something that clearly is related to a fraying social goods infrastructure.

00:34:55.420 Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this.

00:34:56.800 One of them is that that jumbo chain sounds really cool.

00:35:00.200 I would love to go check out one of their chatty lines next time I'm in the Netherlands, whenever that might happen.

00:35:04.860 I'm definitely going to do it.

00:35:05.880 It sounds like a really nice thing that that grocery store chain has chosen to do for its community.

00:35:12.100 That feels like the sort of, I don't know, Jimmy Dean movie, feel good capitalism story that if only the world were more like that, things would be a lot better.

00:35:22.080 Maybe it is like that in the Netherlands.

00:35:23.340 I don't know.

00:35:23.780 But it's not like that here in the U.S., right?

00:35:26.360 I think there are a lot of differences. For one thing, those cashiers in the Netherlands, they have subsidized health care. They have just a bunch of other social safety net things. They probably have a much higher salary, I have to assume, than their counterparts here in the U.S.

00:35:45.180 I was looking into what cashiers make in the US. And like, you know, I used to work hourly wage jobs. But it's been a while. And people are making $10 an hour, right? Like that was, that's just like, not a lot of money. And then to expect those people to shoulder this burden, like you were talking about of chatting with strangers and making elderly folks feel connected.

00:36:14.020 Like those are really virtuous things to do. But for somebody who's working like three jobs, 60 hours a week to like scrape by, that feels like it's really asking a lot. And that context of what is the experience like for that employee, that cashier, I feel gets left out of a lot of these arguments that we saw about like, oh, self checkouts are making us all isolated.

00:36:41.420 We should have more like friendly chit chats with the cashier who's checking us out.

00:36:46.220 You know, I've definitely had experiences in my life where I had like a nice warm connection with a cashier who is checking me out.

00:36:53.360 But just as often I've had the experience of like, wow, this person is really tired and they're not giving me the time of day.

00:37:02.720 And I'm not going to take it personally, but I'm also like not getting a lot of warm fuzzies out of this interaction.

00:37:08.060 I'm just going to like get my things and get out of here.

00:37:09.620 Well, that's another thing is that I have definitely, with my own eyes, witnessed retail

00:37:15.900 clerks take the time to really connect with people who are shopping in a way that I'm

00:37:22.240 like amazed by.

00:37:24.300 And so I don't want to make it seem like there are no retail cashiers who are doing that

00:37:29.100 because I know that there are. 0.77

00:37:31.000 My mom is a big shopper.

00:37:33.240 And I know that a lot of times that shopping is being done out of a place of wanting a

00:37:39.180 warm connection. And so she's clearly getting a warm connection. And that's what she's going in

00:37:43.400 for. So it's really not about the item that she's buying. But like you said, if you're a retail

00:37:47.740 cashier, you probably have your own struggles with loneliness. And so like, are we just like

00:37:51.640 passing down this burden from cashier to cashier to cashier to cashier? And, you know, if we really

00:37:56.520 as a country cared about this loneliness epidemic, which it seems like we're saying that we do,

00:38:01.120 because the Surgeon General put out a report on it, it's clear what we should be putting our

00:38:05.280 investment and energy toward right public good and social good stuff like parks and libraries and

00:38:10.840 community centers and all of that like it just feels like under capitalism it is like well

00:38:16.600 we should have parks and libraries for older folks best we can do is an underpaid barista

00:38:21.740 who is nice to them like that's that's all we got to offer and it's just so sad like we like

00:38:25.900 it doesn't have to be that way but that's how it is that's how it feels to me

00:38:29.660 yeah an underpaid barista and half a million dollars in surveillance technology

00:38:34.280 will that help yeah like what if we invested in the barista and this also bumps up around this like

00:38:42.400 popping online discourse around chatting and retail employees i'm chatty by nature i have a

00:38:49.520 podcast so like i love to chat somebody up and if you give you if you were if we're having a face

00:38:53.920 to face i'm asking how your day was i want some details when we were in berlin that time they are

00:39:00.760 less chatty people and I asked that barista how his day was going what a mistake he looked at me

00:39:09.680 like I had just insulted his mom god yeah they they really value efficiency over there and I

00:39:16.500 loved it I felt like by the end of the trip I finally had it down where I could like perfectly

00:39:22.880 execute telling the barista my order receiving it paying and leaving uh in the most efficient

00:39:28.960 way possible. And in that moment, I felt like a small piece of pride, I guess, for like making it

00:39:36.200 work in the German retail context. So it does sound like, you know, we're talking about how

00:39:43.620 chatting with the retail clerk is good for folks who are experiencing social isolation,

00:39:48.540 but it does sound like not everybody wants to have a chat with retail clerks.

00:39:52.060 Recently, writer Bailey Hurd, who also worked as a server, tweeted,

00:39:55.740 sorry if this is rude or whatever, but I really hate people who refuse to endure even the tiniest

00:40:00.760 bits of small talk. Can't tell you how many times I've walked up to a table and said,

00:40:04.520 how are you doing today? Only to be met with complete silence and a blank stare.

00:40:09.080 And that's, I mean, like it kind of gets into a thing of like, people are just trying to do their

00:40:13.140 job. And certainly, you know, you get from corporate or whatever, like, oh, you're, you're

00:40:17.460 meant to be chatty in this way or chatting in that way. I used to work for a, when I was in

00:40:21.300 college, I worked for a clothing retailer. I don't want to say which one, because I, I mean,

00:40:25.200 I was like very young, but I quit in a very unprofessional way. But when they, for whatever

00:40:31.480 reason, they gave us this guidance that when you were letting somebody into a dressing room to try

00:40:35.940 on a bra or underwear or a camisole, like some sort of intimate item, they wanted you to share

00:40:42.080 a secret with them. And so that was like the guidance that we got. And so you were meant to

00:40:47.920 be like, oh, like an example they gave was, oh, you're trying on this bra. I love that bra. I'm

00:40:54.120 wearing it right now. Like that would be the kind of like secret they wanted you to share.

00:40:58.220 What? This is wild. Share a secret. I always wondered if somebody was like,

00:41:04.920 oh, let me, you want to need a fitting room? Um, yeah, here you go. You know, I once hit a guy

00:41:10.040 while I was driving and I just kept going. I didn't even stop. I don't even enjoy your items.

00:41:16.140 So what I'm saying is like retail clerks and people who are working in the service industry,

00:41:21.220 They're like often given guidance from corporate to like be chatty in a specific way.

00:41:26.260 I don't know.

00:41:26.660 I do feel like we have this situation where people are complaining about this.

00:41:30.900 And these people are just trying to do their jobs, I guess is what I'm saying.

00:41:33.320 Like at Trader Joe's, which as far as I know, Trader Joe's does not do self-checkout.

00:41:37.700 Like none of the Trader Joe's I've ever been to has had self-checkout.

00:41:41.340 And I was thinking about them.

00:41:42.860 I think Trader Joe's is like the anti-self-checkout.

00:41:45.720 Yes.

00:41:46.020 And they actually, it sounds like maybe they want their cashiers to be like a little more

00:41:50.600 chatty with you than other places.

00:41:52.200 I saw this TikTok that I hated where somebody was bemoaning the fact that to shop at Trader

00:41:57.660 Joe's, they feel like they have to do emotional labor of chatting with the cashier to buy

00:42:02.260 their groceries.

00:42:02.900 But here's the thing.

00:42:03.860 If you are someone who is shopping, you're not the one doing emotional labor in that

00:42:08.780 situation.

00:42:09.200 The person who is required by corporate or their boss to like be polite and chatty with

00:42:13.900 you, even if they don't feel like it, to ring you up, that is the person doing emotional labor,

00:42:18.320 not you. You're not doing that. All of this to say, I think that the question of what we get

00:42:23.920 and what we lose through the chattiness and politeness of a retail person is a whole separate

00:42:30.080 thing. When technology comes into the conversation, it was easy for me to assume like automatically

00:42:35.720 when you're doing self-checkout, you're losing this human connection and that's bad.

00:42:39.680 But from doing this research, I do think that it's a little more complex than that.

00:42:43.900 Yeah, it is.

00:42:45.280 Should we get into the listener feedback?

00:42:48.900 Let's do it.

00:42:49.840 All right.

00:42:50.140 Well, I'll just start reading then.

00:42:51.980 So this one came from. 0.99

00:42:55.540 Hey, Bridget here. 0.99

00:42:57.080 Just an FYI that this listener wanted to be anonymous.

00:43:00.220 So we are bleeping that listener's name.

00:43:02.580 In case you're wondering why there are bleeps, that's why.

00:43:05.740 Hi, Mike and Bridget.

00:43:06.660 Wow, this issue just evokes strong feelings.

00:43:09.340 I've never felt the desire to comment on something before.

00:43:12.080 But self-checkouts is what brings me to comment.

00:43:13.900 I'd be curious to see if other small things like this get more comments.

00:43:17.860 I like self-checkouts mostly because I get to do my own bagging.

00:43:21.140 Cashiers and baggers aren't paid enough to make sure my bread doesn't get squished.

00:43:25.020 My favorite method is what Meijer does.

00:43:28.520 That's a brand in the Midwest, a store.

00:43:30.920 They have a phone app where I can scan and bag as I grab things.

00:43:34.420 Then I just zip through the payment.

00:43:36.020 It would be even better if I could pay through the app,

00:43:37.960 but alas, they probably won't do that because of shoplifting.

00:43:41.040 Disclaimer, I think shoplifting is a consequence of poverty

00:43:43.780 and don't blame shoplifters.

00:43:45.320 Do what you got to do.

00:43:46.380 I'm a stickler for data interpretation,

00:43:48.080 so I have some thoughts about the stats

00:43:49.540 from the last episode.

00:43:51.180 67% of people have experienced

00:43:52.860 the failure at self-checkouts.

00:43:54.500 What is the percentage failure for human checkouts?

00:43:56.960 Also, 67% represents the percentage of people

00:43:59.600 who have experienced an event.

00:44:01.240 What's the failure rate per transaction?

00:44:03.420 Given that a majority of people like self-checkouts,

00:44:05.520 I would posit that failure rate per transaction is low.

00:44:09.120 Speculation.

00:44:10.000 I think the part that fails the most

00:44:11.520 is the weight sensor that is making sure

00:44:13.280 you bag items the stores that i shop at don't use the sensor and it's much more smooth i don't know

00:44:18.780 why they care you've already scanned the item so you can't steal it that's such a good point it is

00:44:23.960 a good point yeah right you've already scanned it you can't steal it so as a data practitioner

00:44:28.520 are you a data scientist or a data practitioner because this is like i know mike as somebody who

00:44:34.360 works with data you probably were like great questions thank you for seeing the data like

00:44:38.100 i do which is precisely yeah that's right i mean is you know quite reasonably focused on like what

00:44:44.360 is the denominator here what's the failure rate per transaction uh i think i made you know a

00:44:48.880 similar point last time that 67 percent of people said they've experienced a failure with self

00:44:53.860 checkout i've experienced a failure with like everything my computer my phone my car uh my

00:44:59.200 relationship my cat like everything fails at some point or another right but i'm not gonna throw it

00:45:03.940 out you are absolutely correct it is the little things that i think people feel the most strongly

00:45:09.840 and passionately about um so if folks are listening if you're like oh here's another

00:45:14.800 little tech thing that we should talk about in society that we all deal with and what are your

00:45:18.940 thoughts on it that that would be a great segment so if folks have those please write in i want to

00:45:23.140 hear them i who knew that these little things would be such a such a sticking point for folks

00:45:28.080 yeah it's also satisfying to talk about because i do have strong feelings but i don't have like

00:45:34.300 identity connected to it so it feels possible to talk about them and like hear new perspectives

00:45:40.280 and change my mind in a way that doesn't it doesn't always feel that way about some other

00:45:45.700 issues where there's disagreement so concludes it's the small things isn't it it sure is

00:45:52.060 okay so the next email is from phil jones hi bridget i've got a lot to say on this subject 0.95

00:45:58.900 but first and foremost you're right fuck those machines for whatever added context this might 0.91

00:46:03.500 provide i live in gatineau quebec on the border with ottawa ontario the nation's capital my 0.99

00:46:09.280 general stance is that those machines are worse for everyone as you stated then we got four

00:46:13.880 bulleted items here number one slows the customer down as they now have to operate the checkout a

00:46:20.080 specialized job people have long been hired and trained for there are quirks to the machine that

00:46:24.520 only a seasoned operator knows how to maneuver around there are special items that need to be

00:46:28.580 dealt with differently than standard barcode items it's a mess number two it takes away a job

00:46:34.120 from cashiers who now stand around and monitor a bank of machines that took their job the cashier

00:46:39.120 was promoted to managing a row of insulting facsimiles of their former role number three

00:46:43.840 it removes the bagger job entirely as that's now on the customer number four it makes scamming the

00:46:50.500 store that much easier so it's worse for loss prevention the classic steak for the price of

00:46:55.000 bananas scam ultimately the machines continue to degrade interpersonal connections and community

00:47:00.320 we might see the same cashiers every week at our local grocery store or pharmacy and whether we

00:47:05.920 like them or not recognize that we're part of the same world and need to get along to meet our own

00:47:10.360 needs. These machines put yet another barrier between us and our fellow humans. So let's take

00:47:15.240 a break there because Phil has laid out a lot for us. More after a quick break.

00:47:27.560 Behind every night spent making the kids lunches, there's a lot of suspense. Will they finally eat

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00:47:39.380 And will you finish Episode 8

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00:48:27.320 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality,

00:48:31.740 welcome home.

00:48:33.240 This is Prose Society,

00:48:35.020 the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters,

00:48:39.680 pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the

00:48:44.000 same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books,

00:48:49.420 the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having.

00:48:52.840 I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed.

00:48:56.400 From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments,

00:49:01.280 nothing is off the table.

00:49:02.760 It's like if you can hide some real messages

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00:49:10.220 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives,

00:49:12.400 smart pop culture conversations,

00:49:14.240 or a community of readers

00:49:15.540 who love to think a little too much,

00:49:17.740 you're in the right place.

00:49:19.440 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,

00:49:22.400 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:49:25.480 See you between the pages.

00:49:27.500 When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped.

00:49:30.840 and held captive for nine months.

00:49:33.340 I survived, and I've spent my life exploring

00:49:35.960 how other people survive what should have destroyed them.

00:49:39.720 I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files.

00:49:43.420 I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, 0.96

00:49:48.840 shut up, don't say anything.

00:49:51.500 Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. 0.98

00:49:55.740 I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me.

00:50:00.500 I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

00:50:08.100 They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

00:50:12.000 But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

00:50:15.460 They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

00:50:19.080 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:50:27.500 Hey, this is Hayes Davenport.

00:50:29.100 And Sean Clemens.

00:50:30.160 We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.

00:50:32.520 Every episode, we're trying to help our guests improve their careers by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers.

00:50:38.300 The show is famously super accessible, so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going on.

00:50:44.400 We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller.

00:50:46.900 The definition of what is a movie has kind of changed anyway, too, right?

00:50:50.360 What do you think it is now?

00:50:51.440 It's images and words being spoken, captured by some sort of technology.

00:50:58.080 Danny McBride.

00:50:58.760 He loves Boba.

00:50:59.800 Oh, that's fantastic.

00:51:00.900 And you make it on, you make your own.

00:51:02.740 That's great.

00:51:03.500 I call him Taro Reed.

00:51:07.220 That's a good name.

00:51:08.280 They're all named after cast members of American Pie.

00:51:10.780 Yeah.

00:51:11.220 I call, I don't, I never looked up if she was in this, but I call him Leachie Sobieski.

00:51:16.980 Yeah.

00:51:17.180 I don't think she was in American Pie, but I still like that.

00:51:19.540 Haven't looked it up.

00:51:20.220 Haven't looked it up.

00:51:20.960 She was prominent around the same time.

00:51:23.240 Then Mary Steenburgen.

00:51:24.440 Why are you guys talking to me like, why are you talking so down to me?

00:51:29.500 that you think I don't understand your little play game.

00:51:33.660 I just really am trying to set you up for success here.

00:51:37.280 Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app,

00:51:40.140 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

00:51:48.740 Let's get right back into it.

00:51:51.700 First of all, Phil, keep emailing me because you can write an email.

00:51:55.920 The way that this was so eloquently laid out and like bulleted, this is the kind of email that I really appreciate.

00:52:02.080 Please keep emailing me.

00:52:03.400 Phil's email kind of gets at that tension that I feel, right?

00:52:06.540 That it does feel like, for whatever reason, self-checkout is indicative of some kind of a fraying of a social fabric that, you know, like one of the concepts I was reading about when I was preparing for this episode is this concept of a frictionless society.

00:52:21.740 That it's automatically better if you're not having to deal with the friction that sometimes comes with navigating another human.

00:52:30.200 That you order your groceries online and do curbside pickup.

00:52:33.140 You order Uber Eats and they leave it at your door.

00:52:35.580 You don't even have to, like, talk to them.

00:52:37.260 And questioning the assumption that this is actually a better, more cohesive society because the point of being in a society is navigating other humans.

00:52:44.980 And sometimes we don't like it, but, like, that society.

00:52:47.060 I think that Phil's email really, really gets at the tension that I feel around that of like, well, is this better? Is a society where I'm dealing with humans and navigating the intricacies of that daily, is that automatically a better society or a more efficient society?

00:53:03.520 Yeah, I think Phil definitely has a very dystopian view of the impact of these machines. We're all deep in the sub-basement of Metropolis, glumly scanning our items. They are good questions. And if nothing else, this is useful for us to step back and think about what does it mean to be connected to familiar strangers in our community and forced transactions in the checkout lane with the cashier.

00:53:31.880 what is the value of those like maybe they're both good and bad so that was phil's dystopian 0.93

00:53:39.460 take on why those machines should be fucked however phil goes on to list a few scenarios 0.75

00:53:47.500 where he does use the machines another three points number one at shoppers drug mark 0.98

00:53:54.680 slash pharma pricks think cvs depending on the location there's usually one actual cashier in

00:54:02.200 a bank of machines if i'm only ever buying a couple of things it is more discreet for the

00:54:07.500 more personal purchases and the one i frequent the most there is usually like uncannily often

00:54:13.820 an elderly person buying multiple six packs of pepsi bottles there's the quebec context for you

00:54:19.160 i didn't know they drank a lot of pepsi in quebec uh it's just faster to use the machines

00:54:24.440 second bulleted item from Phil. At Costco, I'm basically only ever buying a handful of things

00:54:30.660 that are cheaper and used at scale. I live with my partner, no kids. We don't need most things in

00:54:34.980 bulk. Waiting in a 10-person long line with overflowing jumbo-sized carts is entirely

00:54:40.280 unnecessary. At Costco, the machines are basically the express line. It's overseen by as many as four

00:54:46.020 people for six machines. There are at least a dozen cashier lines with both a cashier and a

00:54:50.040 bagger. No jobs are being lost here. This is possibly the ideal situation for the machines.

00:54:55.260 So I don't have a Costco membership. I would die of happiness to have one. Phil is just confirming

00:55:00.200 my widely held belief that Costco is my version of heaven and I want to go there.

00:55:07.000 Yeah. And I think this also re-emphasizes the connection between how the workers are treated

00:55:14.680 and the customer experience that people get to have

00:55:18.900 when they go to this store, right?

00:55:20.220 Like we talked about that Dutch store

00:55:22.280 where because it's in the Netherlands,

00:55:25.160 you know, there is a social safety net.

00:55:27.560 They're providing a really good experience

00:55:30.080 for the customers

00:55:30.840 and the management is not trying to nickel and dime

00:55:33.280 every like minute and action of the employee's time.

00:55:38.700 Instead, they're allowing the employees to like,

00:55:42.520 and not just in allowing,

00:55:43.240 but encouraging and facilitating the employees

00:55:45.080 to spend some time like caring for the customers.

00:55:48.620 Costco is another company

00:55:49.900 that treats its workers pretty well.

00:55:53.140 And then at the other end of the spectrum,

00:55:54.200 we have like Dollar General,

00:55:55.600 which is notorious for treating its workers

00:55:57.940 about as bad as you can legally treat a person.

00:56:01.500 And they were just like all in for the self-checkout

00:56:04.420 where they would have one or two people in the store

00:56:08.620 managing the entire store,

00:56:09.980 all aspects of the operations

00:56:11.360 from like managing to stocking the shelves,

00:56:13.880 to receiving deliveries, to mopping the floors,

00:56:15.700 to fixing the self-checkout machines

00:56:17.800 when they invariably like need to be cleared.

00:56:20.020 These things are super related.

00:56:22.260 Yeah, I do think there is definitely

00:56:23.860 some connection between how the,

00:56:27.380 like, I mean, it's just decisions being made

00:56:30.040 at the corporate level trickling down

00:56:33.280 to the experience that us,

00:56:34.740 both as humans who are shopping

00:56:36.160 and humans who are checking people out are having.

00:56:39.000 Yeah, like what is valued?

00:56:41.080 Phil goes on,

00:56:41.640 I've experienced failure at any and all stores I've used the machines at.

00:56:45.340 Grocery stores are particularly bad because of the complex set of items.

00:56:48.940 I think the machines are optimal at five or fewer barcoded items.

00:56:53.140 Beyond that, a trained human is far more efficient.

00:56:56.100 Checking out a grocery store is a two-person operation.

00:56:59.480 That's why there are baggers, at suburban stores at least,

00:57:02.080 I find they're mercifully absent in urban stores.

00:57:04.740 I prefer to bag my own groceries, but I can only do that efficiently

00:57:07.420 because someone else is handling the entirely separate process of scanning items and handling

00:57:11.800 exceptions. The cashier and I are a team. I used to work in the retail tech space, again this is

00:57:16.640 Phil, as part of an internal communication SaaS company. When researching integrating advanced

00:57:22.440 retail hardware, I found a trove of dystopian tracking devices, from camera setups to heat

00:57:27.380 map where customers stop in a store for optimizing product positioning, to tracking MAC addresses of

00:57:32.520 people on the street for pinpoint advertising, to shelves with pressure sensors to present video

00:57:36.860 advertisements shit that's not even worth implementing or having developed in the first

00:57:40.760 place as the cost is so much higher than the return automated checkout machines are the one 0.98

00:57:45.060 ubiquitous piece that made it to the mainstream the most frictionless right the most frictionless

00:57:50.520 version of these is indeed the most dystopian the amazon go model where you're individually

00:57:54.760 tracked throughout the store and are charged for all the items once you leave the store

00:57:58.100 easy but nightmarishly removed from human interaction and giving over so much personal

00:58:03.400 data to Amazon. No thanks. Sorry for the long email. Thanks for the awesome show. Cheers, Phil.

00:58:09.920 That is terrifying. And I think that the cost of some of this technology,

00:58:15.700 it must be astronomical. And I can't imagine it's worth it. And so it just feels to me like

00:58:20.860 it is investing in surveillance tech for surveillance tech's sake.

00:58:25.980 Yeah. So thanks, Phil, for writing in, because that was a pretty insightful email with some

00:58:29.900 like specialized knowledge. Let me go on. This one comes from Susan. Bridget, I think you're

00:58:34.620 going to like this. Bridget, Mike, I dislike self-checkout immensely and only use it if forced

00:58:40.780 to. For example, if the line for a person is really long and I only have one item, that is

00:58:45.680 maybe once every year or two. My goal is to never use it. I think it's impersonal, frustrating,

00:58:50.980 and job stealing. When I lived in Boston, the stop and shop near me had these wands you could

00:58:54.800 take with you as you shopped and bagged your groceries in your cart. You just had to pay on

00:58:58.540 the way out. I didn't mind those, and the technology seems more reliable than the typical

00:59:02.380 self-checkout. You paid a cashier, but you didn't have to put your groceries on a belt.

00:59:06.940 Occasionally, they would randomly flag you for a spot check of your items, I guess to prevent theft.

00:59:11.360 After they scanned a few items, you were on your way. I actually liked that system way better than

00:59:15.800 self-checkout. Susan goes on to thank us for the episode about Claudine Gay. She brings up some

00:59:22.820 really good points about that, that it's not a coincidence that all of the Ivy League college

00:59:27.640 presidents called to testify before Congress were women. It's not a coincidence that two of the

00:59:31.580 three women are now gone from their leadership roles. It's not a coincidence that the prime 0.54

00:59:35.320 target for the far rights campaign was a highly qualified black woman. There are so many mediocre 1.00

00:59:39.820 white men holding positions of leadership that are never targeted. Yeah. So thanks, Susan, for the 0.99

00:59:44.780 nice email. Well, thanks for listening, Susan. And I do like this email. I like it because it

00:59:52.040 affirms my worldview surprisingly enough yeah and it's interesting that you know susan

00:59:59.760 is clear that she dislikes them the self-checkout immensely but then goes on to describe this

01:00:05.780 other less oppressive system of checking oneself out that was less objectionable right so it's

01:00:14.080 uh i do have to wonder how much of this people's visceral reaction against self-checkout is

01:00:22.040 Just the sort of jankiness of the machines and the frustration of standing there while it's like furiously beeping at you and telling you that you've done something wrong.

01:00:33.760 That like maddening, frustrating feeling.

01:00:36.960 I think I have a special sensitivity to machines beeping at me.

01:00:39.920 Part of me wonders if my feelings on self-checkout are because I am the befuddled person who can't figure it out and the machine is beeping and everybody's looking and I'm like having an issue.

01:00:50.520 yeah but it's just software right like and it's one one can master it i'll get there one day

01:00:58.060 okay here's our final email uh from emily emily brought up some really good points

01:01:04.000 uh i've been working as a cashier at a grocery store since 2020 and have been on the front lines

01:01:10.500 of the self-checkout debate mostly from customers complaining to me a person with no power over the

01:01:15.720 addition of self-checkout machines at our store about how hated they are and that they're taking

01:01:19.800 my job. While I can certainly see where the concern about my job security comes from,

01:01:24.460 at least in my personal experience, the inclusion of self-checkout machines has actually made my

01:01:28.960 job easier and more secure. Pretty much every member of my team has suffered some sort of

01:01:33.700 checking-related injury, be it bone spurs, carpal tunnel, or tennis elbow from the repetitive motions

01:01:38.940 of scanning items. With self-checkout, rather than having to take unpaid time off work, since this

01:01:44.160 usually starts before you've worked enough hours to get paid time off, we can instead work the

01:01:48.160 self-checkout machines, which require less manual labor and therefore less stress on work-related

01:01:52.540 injuries. As for the machines taking our jobs, I'm a little more split on the truth of this.

01:01:57.540 On one hand, I don't want to go to bat for any corporations looking to raise profits by cutting

01:02:01.600 labor costs, but on the other, as someone who was an essential worker during the initial COVID

01:02:06.640 lockdown and the ensuing spikes and variations, I can tell you it is a thankless job and I don't

01:02:11.240 begrudge anyone who quits to move on to less people facing work. The front end has the highest

01:02:16.280 turnover rate of any department at my store. Since having self-checkout machines, I at least

01:02:21.140 do not have to deal with customers complaining to me about understaffing and long lines.

01:02:26.240 Obviously, I'm just one person with one experience, but I figured I'd give my point of view since it

01:02:30.020 became such a heated topic. Love the show and hope you're all doing well. Thanks for your time,

01:02:33.740 Emily. Emily, thank you so much for this email because I really wanted to get the perspective

01:02:38.680 of somebody who currently works retail. I did not even think about the repetitive motion

01:02:44.500 of scanning out people's items

01:02:47.340 and what that might do to someone's body.

01:02:50.260 And so the alternative of being like,

01:02:52.480 well, you don't have to take time off and make no money.

01:02:54.960 You can do the self-checkout,

01:02:56.360 which is a lot less physically demanding on you.

01:02:59.160 I didn't even think about that

01:03:00.440 as a potential reason why self-checkout

01:03:03.760 might be better in retail establishments.

01:03:06.060 And so I'm really thankful for that perspective.

01:03:08.920 Also, I didn't think about this either,

01:03:11.340 but it makes so much sense

01:03:12.240 that people who have issues with self-checkout

01:03:15.240 complaining to the retail cashier who like,

01:03:18.640 she's like, oh, well, I actually made the decision

01:03:20.500 to put that in the store.

01:03:21.920 Thanks for letting me know.

01:03:22.820 I'll take it out.

01:03:23.760 Like, what do people think?

01:03:25.140 That like, that's how the decisions get made?

01:03:26.600 Like, even if you have issues with self-checkout,

01:03:29.260 like I do, you don't need like complaining

01:03:31.260 to the retail cashier who did not make the decision

01:03:34.740 to put that there is not the proper way to do that.

01:03:37.980 Complain on your podcast, people.

01:03:39.840 Yeah.

01:03:39.940 and and not just complaining to this cashier who sounds like didn't really want to hear it

01:03:44.660 but also framing it as like and i'm complaining because i really care about protecting your job

01:03:50.380 like get over yourself you don't care about this person's job if you cared you would like

01:03:55.580 say something nice to them or like tell a joke uh not just like complain at them about how you

01:04:01.620 are inconvenienced i'm complaining at you for your benefit don't you see this yeah and also like it

01:04:07.960 just I mean it also kind of goes back to the conversation about retail establishments and

01:04:13.240 loneliness like it just confirms to me that putting the burden on retail cashiers to stave off the

01:04:19.240 loneliness epidemic when Emily is saying that the people the kind of experiences people are having

01:04:24.420 working at the front end like this are not really that great and that people are rude and people

01:04:30.200 you know maybe it's not something that people would want would have a lot of warm fuzzies about

01:04:34.540 So, yeah, that aspect really, like, stuck with me.

01:04:38.660 I've been thinking about that a lot since we did that episode

01:04:41.360 and read these emails, how, you know,

01:04:43.620 I personally feel like I've, you know,

01:04:46.560 the experience of living in a city during 2020

01:04:49.160 when COVID disrupted all of our lives

01:04:53.660 and we were, like, trapped inside,

01:04:56.760 it really, like, changed a lot of things.

01:04:59.040 It certainly changed me.

01:05:00.080 And so one part, one thing after this conversation

01:05:03.040 is I've just been thinking about how has it changed me, right?

01:05:06.160 Like, maybe I should go through the human cashier line

01:05:11.580 a little bit more often.

01:05:12.600 I don't know.

01:05:13.560 I recently, you know, I think over the weekend,

01:05:17.420 went to the grocery store, that same giant

01:05:19.040 that we've been talking about all the time,

01:05:20.980 and there was some kind of issue happening

01:05:23.700 at the self-checkout machines,

01:05:25.700 and the line was just, like, not moving.

01:05:28.460 And so I was like, you know what?

01:05:31.000 as a little experiment, I'm going to get in the human cashier line. And I did have a perfectly

01:05:37.100 nice interaction with the woman checking me out. We talked about the fennel I was buying.

01:05:42.160 It was a nice interaction. So maybe the self-checkout is like not even the thing. Maybe

01:05:46.740 we just like need to treat each other a little better. Oh, I think that's right. Like the self

01:05:53.000 checkout can be like an internal test of how we're doing, how well or how badly we're connecting and

01:06:00.460 thinking about our fellow human. Yeah, it's true. I mean, a lot of time when I'm feeling

01:06:05.340 particularly low or stressed or angry or something, those are the times when I just want to head down,

01:06:13.080 go into the self-checkout line. And yeah, maybe that can be a little signal to me to be a little

01:06:20.440 more mindful of my mood and maybe try to change it by, I don't know, being kind to somebody or

01:06:25.480 something? Oh, I, I have to do that with intention. When I'm in that place where everything is going

01:06:31.900 wrong and I feel like I'm about to lash out, I, it's like a personal challenge with myself to like,

01:06:38.340 go do something nice for a stranger and see if that reconnects, like reconnects you,

01:06:44.760 recalibrates you, grounds you. Like it's like a personal challenge because otherwise I just know

01:06:49.960 myself and I can really spit out. And it's like, oh, the reason that this work thing didn't go

01:06:55.180 well if this person had nothing to do with it let me take my anger out on them like so it's it's

01:06:59.800 like a little a little challenge that I have to myself to sort of reconnect and stay grounded and

01:07:04.940 then also just like stay I just try to stay grateful and checked into the fact that we're all

01:07:10.640 sharing space together sharing this world together and like it's comes with annoyances and hang-ups

01:07:18.220 but at the end of the day like what a gift yeah it's true and you know maybe we have to have three

01:07:24.560 or four mundane draining interactions to be able to have that one good one that like

01:07:31.160 changes our mood spins it more positive and gives us those those warm fuzzies with the stranger at

01:07:38.620 the store all right so thanks again for writing in getting this kind of listener feedback is

01:07:44.620 amazing feels really good and bridget we still need to do that experiment where we go to these

01:07:51.320 stores and like actually compare although it it feels a little less charged now oh when when we

01:07:57.180 were qaing the episode i was like getting getting my shoes on i was like let's do this but we're

01:08:03.240 still gonna do it details to come and as i said i want to start really unpacking other low stakes

01:08:11.880 tech stuff one that i might have is qr code menus maybe that'll be next because i have a lot of

01:08:17.180 feelings about QR code menus. And if you do too, maybe start percolating on that. But yeah,

01:08:21.460 thanks for listening. And thanks for sharing your feedback with us. And Mike, I guess I'll

01:08:25.760 see you at the grocery store. Yeah, I'll see you there away from the self checkout.

01:08:33.960 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech? Or just want to say hi? You can reach us at

01:08:38.080 hello at tangody.com. You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangody.com.

01:08:43.120 There are no girls on the internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeart

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01:09:16.860 I survived nine months in captivity and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive

01:09:25.560 what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the Survivor Files.

01:09:31.220 Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled,

01:09:36.980 and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive.

01:09:42.160 Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:09:50.540 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

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01:10:04.100 Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture

01:10:08.100 with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

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01:10:14.640 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:10:22.460 Hey, this is Hayes Davenport.

01:10:24.340 And Sean Clements.

01:10:25.540 We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.

01:10:27.700 Every episode, we're trying to help our guests improve their careers

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01:10:44.700 Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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01:10:56.760 And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, I deliver pizza to a new guest.

01:11:01.680 I've shared a slice with everyone, from Seth Rollins.

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01:11:11.740 And now, we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Turturro.

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There Are No Girls on the Internet - December 26, 2025

Why We’re Fighting About Self Checkout – Best of TANGOTI

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