There Are No Girls on the Internet - May 18, 2024


Zuckerberg’s glow up; Bumble Fumble; Celebrity Digital Guillotine; Better Help gets busted – NEWS ROUNDUP

Topics
Brandy Mellville exploited girls. Does anyone care? Scarlett Johansson’s Open AI voice fight shows the need for consent in tech

Episode Stats


Length

57 minutes

Words per minute

171.88

Word count

9,896

Sentence count

452

Harmful content

Misogyny

8

sentences flagged

Toxicity

4

sentences flagged

Hate speech

2

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
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00:00:34.920 If your bookshelf and your For You page
00:00:36.860 are equally important to your personality,
00:00:39.100 welcome home.
00:00:40.700 Pro Society is a weekly podcast
00:00:42.560 that's part book club, part group chat
00:00:44.480 for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice
00:00:46.180 and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:00:48.920 Each week, we're connecting the dots
00:00:50.360 between books, the internet, and pop culture
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00:01:09.060 There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative.
00:01:17.180 I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet.
00:01:19.860 welcome to there are no girls on the internet where we explore the intersection of identity
00:01:26.960 technology and social media and this is another installment of our weekly news roundup where we
00:01:32.000 break down and explain all the different news stories from the internet that you might have
00:01:36.260 missed yes it has been a while since we've done one of these i took a little bit of a break from
00:01:40.620 the news but now we are back and better than ever mike you are also back thanks for being here
00:01:46.200 Thanks for having me, Bridget. It's great to be back. It has indeed been a minute.
00:01:51.200 It's been a lot of tech news in that time, and it's great to be here talking with you again.
00:01:55.660 I'm a little bit distracted because I'm scrolling through these polished Mark Zuckerberg pictures. Have you seen these?
00:02:04.780 I have, yeah. It's like a whole new Zuck.
00:02:07.520 Someone from Mark Zuckerberg or Meta PR is working overtime to try to convince us, the public, that Mark Zuckerberg is a more polished, more stylish, more refined kind of guy.
00:02:21.400 And far be it of me to spend a lot of time talking about the sartorial choices of a tech leader.
00:02:26.240 However, we know there is a ton of precedent for tech leaders using their fashion and style and hair to try to project things at us, the public.
00:02:35.080 So it does kind of seem like their game to be talking about Mark Zuckerberg rocking a chain at his 40th birthday party, et cetera, et cetera.
00:02:43.620 Clearly trying to signal to us that he's a little more polished, a little more refined, a little more stylish.
00:02:49.460 Yeah.
00:02:50.440 You've talked about this before.
00:02:52.400 Didn't you write a whole op-ed about Elizabeth Holmes's hair and her active choices to have questionably nourished looking hair?
00:03:03.540 Good memory.
00:03:04.380 I definitely did. I wrote a whole piece about Elizabeth Holmes' hair choices. If you remember her, she definitely was known for a certain type of hairstyle that I think was with intention. It did not look nourished or conditioned. And I think that was by choice. We'll throw the article in the show notes if you want more information. But she was definitely somebody who knew how to use her fashion and hair to signal a certain kind of thing to us. 0.66
00:03:31.220 yeah i think you're right that you know all of these tech leaders do that you know they get up
00:03:36.880 on a stage there's a lot of photos of them uh it's all i think pretty deliberate it's and so
00:03:42.220 like for this new zuckerberg rebrand do you think they brought in the rick perry guy the guy who
00:03:46.040 brought us the smart rick perry the one who wears glasses oh that was my favorite like rebrand when
00:03:52.740 it was like they they put him in glasses and it was like guess what y'all rick perry is smart now
00:03:58.560 from the team that brought you smart rick perry comes zuckerberg glow up zuckerberg glow up the
00:04:05.760 zuck glow up the zuck glow so basically in these pictures there's one he made a an announcement
00:04:11.160 about meta ai and he was wearing like a like a silver like a silver cuban link chain and everyone
00:04:16.800 was like oh nice chain and then somebody like used ai deepfix to put a little like one of those kind
00:04:23.520 of thin beards on him so if you if you saw that picture the chain that was legit the the beard
00:04:29.540 that was not legit but even though that picture wasn't real it really highlights my belief that
00:04:36.240 what contouring makeup is for some women beards are for some men like a beard can completely
00:04:43.340 change the way a man's face looks it can like it is like magic yeah absolutely beard really
00:04:50.560 changes a man's face so it sounds like over the weekend zuckerberg had a birthday party where for
00:04:56.660 the party his wife recreated all of the places that he lived when he was growing up so like
00:05:04.660 his harvard dorm room where he created facebook and there are all these pictures of him wearing
00:05:10.440 like a fitted black tee and a chain like in a fake dorm room kind of diorama like adult-sized
00:05:18.180 diorama the whole thing is like i don't know it's clear to me that somebody wants us to think of
00:05:23.860 mark zuckerberg as this affable guy with friends and family who love him you know what i mean that's
00:05:29.380 that clear to me that that's what we're all supposed to be taking away from this god i have
00:05:33.240 to look for those photos of him in the dorm rooms with the chain because that was definitely a type
00:05:37.420 of guy in boston in like the early 2000s when he was there that's when i was in dorms in boston and
00:05:44.920 like that was definitely type of guy like fitted black shirt chain uh usually not like you know a
00:05:50.760 40 something year old zuckerberg uh what a nice and strange gift from his wife the pictures are
00:06:01.280 unreal uh i did see someone comparing it to marie antoinette that apparently marie antoinette
00:06:08.700 had built an entire fake village in Versailles that was equipped with a working farm and fake
00:06:17.660 people to work it so that whenever she wanted to pretend to be a peasant girl on the farm, 0.99
00:06:23.920 she could do that. And somebody compared Mark Zuckerberg's fake set pieces of his college dorm
00:06:31.020 and crappy first apartment to that, which I thought was kind of funny. That's actually a
00:06:35.960 pretty good segue into what I want to talk about first, which is the digital guillotine movement,
00:06:40.700 aka Digitine. If you don't know what that is, basically people on social media are using
00:06:45.920 hashtags like hashtag let them eat cake, hashtag blockout 2024, and hashtag celebrity blocklist
00:06:52.100 to rally people to boycott celebrities like Zendaya, Taylor Swift, and the Kardashians.
00:06:57.640 Here's how Mashable describes it. Labeled, quote, celebrity blackout 2024 and Digitine,
00:07:03.240 aka the digital guillotine, the movement is a protest against celebrity culture, specifically
00:07:08.220 blocking people of influence who have not yet used their power or privilege to take a stance
00:07:13.360 on the humanitarian crisis that has devastated millions. So this all seems to have really been
00:07:19.080 sparked by the Met Gala last week. The night at the Met Gala was also the night that airstrikes
00:07:23.960 targeted Rafa in Gaza, which is an enclave on the border of the Gaza Strip, which is really key for
00:07:28.880 transporting aid and supplies to Palestinians. So there has been a lot of chatter about the Met
00:07:34.640 Gala as this symbol for out-of-touch, wealthy celebrities really reveling in their privilege
00:07:41.040 and opulence while just a few blocks away, protesters are on the streets calling for a
00:07:46.720 ceasefire in Palestine. People were even comparing this to the Hunger Games. And honestly, from like
00:07:52.140 an optics perspective, it is kind of hard to disagree. I will say that for what it's worth,
00:07:57.860 I don't really feel like I have a clear take here.
00:08:01.720 On the one hand, I totally get how it looks very out of touch to have these celebrities
00:08:05.940 like flaunting their wealth while so much is going on in the world.
00:08:09.900 I don't say that to say that I'm like above paying attention to the Met Gala.
00:08:13.920 In fact, I own a t-shirt that says Rihanna is my Pope, which is a reference to the time
00:08:18.040 that Rihanna dressed as the Pope at the Met Gala.
00:08:20.220 But I didn't even watch it this year and I didn't even really pay attention to any of
00:08:23.720 the coverage or any of the like online posts about it.
00:08:27.140 in part because Conde Nast staff were boycotting the Met Gala.
00:08:31.140 So I was like, I'm not going to pay attention.
00:08:32.680 And also it just seemed like kind of boring,
00:08:36.300 like not in a like I'm above this kind of way,
00:08:39.480 more in a like this just doesn't seem like a good use of my time
00:08:42.300 to be paying attention to kind of way.
00:08:43.760 I also really get the argument around how much money is spent at the Met Gala.
00:08:50.600 I've seen people say things like, oh, well, the Met Gala is really expensive,
00:08:54.120 But celebrities aren't actually paying to attend. And of course, all the proceeds from the Met Gala goes to the Metropolitan Museum of Arts Costume Institute, which is like a worthy cause. And that's true. But I also feel that like bringing that up feels like a bit of a dodge to what people are pointing out when they are talking about the Met Gala, which is like this dissonance between the Met Gala and what is going on in the world, which I think is like a valid point.
00:09:20.660 and I don't think people should just be dismissing that.
00:09:22.940 However, I also don't want this to be a conversation
00:09:24.980 where women are just being scolded
00:09:27.120 for enjoying things like deemed trivial, right? 0.89
00:09:30.060 It's so easy to fall into that.
00:09:31.980 This could sort of be a bit of an unpopular opinion,
00:09:35.580 but I do feel a little bit weird about the entire thing.
00:09:40.180 Like truthfully, there has been a humanitarian crisis
00:09:42.620 in Palestine for many, many years, right?
00:09:44.880 And in all of those years, there were Met Galas
00:09:47.600 and rich celebrities doing rich celebrity things.
00:09:50.660 You know, I think there's an element of people scolding celebrities for partying while there's a big human rights crisis going on. But it seems to me that has been the dynamic for a very long time. And like, I don't know, it almost sort of reads like, how dare you go to a party when I have just started being more tuned into this situation in Palestine that has been ongoing for many years, which I'm not sure that is a useful stance.
00:10:13.340 but that said counterpoint some of these people seem freaking insufferable and it kind of almost
00:10:20.620 sounds like they were asking for it so i'm talking about people like influencer hailey bailey khalil
00:10:26.640 who goes by hailey bailey on tiktok who posted a video of herself at the mechala pre-event
00:10:31.980 lip-syncing to the alleged marie antoinette quote let them eat cake from the sofia coppola
00:10:37.960 a 2006 movie, Marie Antoinette, which is a masterpiece. Go see it. However, I just learned
00:10:43.880 this. Did you know that Marie Antoinette might not have actually even ever said, let them eat cake?
00:10:48.600 I did not know that. I thought it was an actual quote.
00:10:51.600 No, historians don't even think she ever actually said that.
00:10:54.680 Huh. Fascinating.
00:10:57.500 So basically this influencer, really not something I would have recommended she do. She posted a
00:11:04.420 video from the Met Gala, lip syncing Marie Antoinette's Let Them Eat Cake. And people,
00:11:10.680 unsurprisingly, did not like this. And so this whole celebrity blockout thing started with TikTok
00:11:16.440 user Ray, who goes by Lady From the Outside, who really kicked off the movement, specifically asking
00:11:23.120 for TikTok users to unfollow Bailey, the influencer who made that Let Them Eat Cake video from the Met
00:11:28.900 Gala, specifically asking for users to block her in particular. But now it has led to people
00:11:34.940 making lists of celebrities to block just generally who have not used their platforms
00:11:39.480 to speak up. Here's what Rae said about the celebrity blockout movement on TikTok. She said,
00:11:44.820 we gave them their platforms. It's time to take it back. Take our views away, our likes,
00:11:48.960 our comments, our money. Now, there has been a suggestion that this movement could be making
00:11:53.820 a real dent in some celebrities' social media followings. Middle East Monitor reported that
00:11:58.560 according to Social Blade, a U.S.-based social media analytics website, it has caused some
00:12:03.160 celebrities to lose followers. They reported that Selena Gomez lost 1 million followers on Instagram
00:12:08.380 and 100,000 on X. Zendaya lost 153,000 followers on Instagram and 40,000 on X. Kim Kardashian
00:12:15.240 lost 780,000 followers on Instagram, and her sister Kylie Jenner lost 540,000 followers on
00:12:22.180 instagram and 53 000 followers on x so i would say those are like decent chunks of followings
00:12:29.160 that they have lost however i don't know if you have millions and millions and millions of followers
00:12:33.960 i don't know that that it sounds like it seems like a drop in the bucket i don't know i don't
00:12:37.620 know that they're really gonna feel this in their wallets i guess is what i'm saying
00:12:40.160 if that is the intent of this movement yeah i mean i and you said the the hashtag was
00:12:48.580 digitine like a mashup of digital and guillotine that's right yeah that's like pretty intense you
00:12:55.420 know like you could be mad at celebrities but i don't know i feel like maybe invoking the french
00:13:03.920 revolution and the reign of terror specifically is like not what we need in 2024 um maybe these
00:13:10.380 people feel differently mike doesn't think it's time to roll in the gallows yeah like
00:13:15.460 maybe not yeah i mean i'm not necessarily saying that you know who who knows who's
00:13:22.540 going to be in power when you know i'm not trying to to be some sort of counter-revolutionary here
00:13:27.620 i mean i i kind of i'm i guess i'm a little bit conflicted i do think this whole thing
00:13:35.440 represents where we are when it comes to celebrity right now i think that unless you
00:13:41.240 are somebody who is a hardcore stan of somebody, I don't think that in general people are really
00:13:47.620 looking to celebrities the same way that maybe they once were. Ultimately, I personally just do
00:13:53.060 not have any kind of faith in celebrity whatsoever. Obviously, I think it's nice and good or whatever
00:13:58.740 when they use their platforms for good and they should do that and all of that. But I just think
00:14:02.900 that we should be looking to celebrities less in general. And truly, if there was one moment in the
00:14:08.080 in the recent past that i think solidified how useless celebrity is and how we all should be
00:14:14.920 looking to celebrity less for all things it was the 2020 imagine video when it was the early days
00:14:22.720 of covid and celebrities were like you know what everyone is in their houses people are scared
00:14:28.880 you know we can offer the world us singing john lennon's imagine do you remember this i do yeah
00:14:37.360 maybe you're right maybe that was like i don't know that that caused the end of celebrity but
00:14:42.660 it definitely does seem like a good indicator that things are not like they were right like
00:14:49.380 uh yeah we celebrities do not have that place in culture uh that they used to they're just like
00:14:57.700 they're just like us right it's like page five everywhere yeah i really think of that video that
00:15:03.900 imagine video is my roman empire i always wonder do people are celebrities like well i only got
00:15:10.320 roped into this because gal gadot asked me or will ferrell asked me he wrote me into it like
00:15:15.300 like our celebrities do celebrities look at who convinced them to do that and they're like why did
00:15:20.240 i get mixed up in that and i really see it in conjunction with i know you're not going to know
00:15:24.300 what this is so bear with me but the 2014 selfie that ellen took at the oscars where it's like
00:15:32.480 with Ellen and Bradley Cooper and Jennifer Lawrence and Kevin Spacey, I think.
00:15:38.500 Like, it's like a bunch of celebrities all crowded into a selfie that Ellen is taking.
00:15:44.920 And I remember when it came out, everybody was, like, losing their mind.
00:15:48.000 Like, oh, my God, all these celebrities together.
00:15:49.640 Oh, my God.
00:15:49.960 Oh, my God.
00:15:50.240 Oh, my God.
00:15:50.800 And it's just funny now how, like, five years later, six years later in 2020, how collectively
00:15:57.840 we were like, we don't need celebrities right now.
00:15:59.940 We don't want to see this.
00:16:01.220 yeah not like that yeah i guess is it is it influencers now is it nobody is it mr beast
00:16:07.400 you keep trying to sprinkle mr beast into conversation and then you'll be like i don't
00:16:13.200 want i don't want to talk about him i don't want any follow-up i want to reference him and i want
00:16:17.080 to move on i guess i'm curious yeah i don't get it you've not done this on the mic so listeners
00:16:24.560 have no idea what i'm talking about but in in non-recorded conversation you will reference
00:16:30.260 Mr. Beast, like, who is this Mr. Beast? Why is he everywhere? Why am I reading about him in the New
00:16:34.800 York Times? And I'll start to go, like, tell you, and you're like, I don't actually want to know.
00:16:38.580 I just want to, like, raise the question. I'm just asking questions, Bridget. Yeah,
00:16:43.460 you're just asking questions that need answers about Mr. Beast.
00:16:52.020 Let's take a quick break.
00:16:52.960 We'll be right back.
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00:17:43.840 If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality,
00:17:47.840 welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club,
00:17:54.660 part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks
00:17:58.600 Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo,
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00:18:47.840 And we're back.
00:18:53.420 So you know who else is just asking questions?
00:18:56.100 The FTC to BetterHelp.
00:18:58.300 And if you get your therapy and mental health services from BetterHelp,
00:19:02.280 you might have gotten a notice that you'll be getting an insultingly low refund soon.
00:19:07.440 Around 800,000 customers of the online therapy platform BetterHelp
00:19:11.080 will start getting refund notices related to a settlement with the Federal Trade Commission
00:19:15.200 because last year, BetterHelp agreed to pay $7.8 million to settle the FTC charges that it co-opted
00:19:22.340 user data, including personal health questions for advertising purposes, sharing sensitive
00:19:27.900 information with social media platforms like Facebook and Snapchat. So the FTC alleges that
00:19:33.160 BetterHelp not only failed to get consent before sharing this data, they also misled users by
00:19:38.560 promising they would keep their data private, but then sharing it with advertising companies
00:19:43.780 like meta and snapchat now better help did not admit to any of this although they are paying
00:19:49.460 the settlement they said in a statement this week that they were quote deeply committed to
00:19:53.340 the privacy of our members and we value the trust people put at us by using our services
00:19:57.460 so i don't know how deeply committed to the privacy of their members they can be if they're
00:20:00.800 just given their sensitive information to whoever wants it for money yeah and after telling people
00:20:07.880 that they wouldn't do that that they would keep their information private yeah it was some pretty
00:20:11.840 damning allegations and this is something that you have particular expertise in right mike
00:20:17.340 yeah some i mean it's not like you know rocket science the idea that when you are dealing with 0.87
00:20:25.380 people's sensitive health information and you tell them that it will be kept private uh they could
00:20:31.360 reasonably expect that it would be kept private and not shared with advertising companies to to
00:20:36.700 market goods to them. You know, it was I think I was reading the FTC complaint here, and it seemed
00:20:45.400 like that misleading aspect was a big core part of their their complaint. So it is not just
00:20:56.000 BetterHelp. Eligible refund customers include anybody who paid for services on BetterHelp or
00:21:01.360 any of its affiliated websites that cater to certain communities like youth or queer people.
00:21:06.700 places like teen counseling, faithful counseling, or pride counseling. If you use those services
00:21:12.620 from August 1st, 2017 to December 31st, 2020, you are eligible for a refund. Okay. So you are a
00:21:20.460 member of a vulnerable community, right? Your therapy app has just gotten pinched for selling
00:21:26.080 your deepest, most intimate details that you thought you were sharing with your mental health
00:21:32.080 professional and them alone right so now better help is like okay maybe we did this we need to
00:21:37.840 compensate you for this wrongdoing what do you think is a is a number amount that you think is
00:21:45.080 commiserate with that with what happened there for like what is the the value of my privacy like how
00:21:52.840 much would it be worth to me to not uh unwittingly share personal information about me and my health
00:22:01.460 How much would that be worth?
00:22:03.240 Yes.
00:22:04.380 I don't know.
00:22:05.260 I mean, that seems like some pretty, pretty big stuff.
00:22:07.660 It's hard to put a dollar amount on that kind of personal information, you know?
00:22:11.140 How about less than 10 of them?
00:22:15.040 Dollars?
00:22:15.960 How about less than $10?
00:22:18.520 People got less than $10.
00:22:21.700 When I saw that, it's just, it's, I'm a, I'm a big proponent of like, take your little
00:22:27.360 money, like, even if it's a dollar, get your coffee, whatever.
00:22:31.320 $10 is like insultingly low for what they have been alleged to have done wrong.
00:22:38.020 Selling the most intimate data and then telling people like, don't worry, it's going to be between
00:22:43.940 you and a doctor and Snapchat and Mark Zuckerberg and his stylist team. And like, it's like,
00:22:50.700 whoa, what? Here's how Ella Unchained put it on threads. BetterHelp sold my data to Facebook and
00:22:57.300 all I got was this $9.72 refund. Corporate accountability is a joke. And I completely
00:23:03.800 agree. When I saw that amount of money, I was like shocked that that is how low that they were
00:23:09.100 giving out. And I think that thread, is that what we're calling threads? I think that thread or
00:23:13.600 whatever post on threads really nails how I feel about it. That like tech platforms and lacks
00:23:18.980 policy and lack of accountability have created this dynamic where nothing private or intimate
00:23:25.040 about us is not for sale. Even if they tell you that it's not for sale, it is still for sale.
00:23:30.740 Even the stuff that you talk about with your mental health professional, a dynamic that we
00:23:35.000 once really understood as private and sacred and intimate, even that is for sale. And when they
00:23:41.140 sell it in a way that the government says breaks the law, they will barely face any consequences
00:23:46.220 for it. And the compensation that you as the person who was exploited will get from that
00:23:51.300 will be not just low insultingly low like embarrassingly low yeah you're right it really
00:23:57.880 speaks to the the expectation we have that people don't have privacy that all of our private
00:24:04.520 information is available to be sold and traded and used to market us goods and i i think that's
00:24:13.360 a really destructive norm to have and you know it's not like in some ways uh it's just endemic
00:24:23.660 to everything being online uh right like it's it's just a fact of the digital world that every
00:24:31.200 product every service is just like one business entity away from an advertising company who's
00:24:39.180 trying to use your eyeballs and your attention to sell you stuff and so there's just like so much
00:24:44.980 pressure there and incentive to violate people's privacy and use personal information to surface
00:24:52.380 them advertising uh that just wasn't there in previous eras of like health in you know personal
00:25:00.480 health information when it was all kept in paper files at a hospital they just didn't have the
00:25:06.680 opportunity or the incentive to try to use that for advertising whereas now that's uh you know
00:25:12.440 for companies like better help i think probably a big part of their business model is advertising
00:25:19.240 yeah and i guess just philosophically i think that we should all be stopping to to wonder like
00:25:26.940 do we want the most intimate parts of who we are the the parts that we share when we're vulnerable
00:25:32.400 the parts that we share when we're told no one else will hear them except for this one
00:25:36.720 health professional. Do we want that to be fair game, to be taken from us and used to exploit us?
00:25:42.500 Like I just, you know, you know, I went to Catholic school. It would be like if you did
00:25:47.240 confession and you confess something in the confessional, which you were told was between
00:25:51.680 you and your religious leader. And then the next thing you know, it's like, oh, did you cheat on
00:25:56.200 your spouse? Here's an advertisement for a spouse cheating. Like you're like, what, wait a minute,
00:26:00.820 know what like that would be we would not accept that so like i think it's really like a philosophical
00:26:07.660 thing of like do we want these very intimate things that we share to just be fodder to exploit
00:26:14.280 us further and for some tech company to make money from us i argue no this indulgence has
00:26:19.800 been brought to you by ashley madison i'm sure somebody somewhere is working on if it doesn't
00:26:26.720 exists already somebody somewhere is working on like a confessional app where when you make the
00:26:34.100 confession how they make money is selling the data about the confession about you totally someone has
00:26:39.720 that app you you can't convince me that does not exist yeah and i think i totally agree there's
00:26:44.620 there needs to be more i don't know safeguards against this right like we need a federal law
00:26:53.020 protecting privacy uh we don't have that right so we're left with companies uh like better help
00:26:59.860 that can can do things like this and you know may point to the fact that uh there it's kind of a new
00:27:07.720 space and there aren't really rules so maybe they can you know write a check and not have to admit
00:27:12.760 to any wrongdoing uh what we need are some like clear standards around privacy where you know as
00:27:21.940 a society and, you know, backed up by laws, we've clearly stated that this sort of thing is not okay.
00:27:33.160 Privacy is worth something. And hopefully that is more than $9.72.
00:27:39.640 Yes. So the reason that I wanted to talk about this is because we actually did an episode about
00:27:44.260 BetterHelp in the wake of the Astroworld crowd crush incident that left a bunch of people,
00:27:48.540 including children dead. I was really shaken up by that story, especially when in the wake of that,
00:27:54.160 the organizers announced that they were going to be offering free, like a free trial of Better
00:28:00.680 Health mental health services. That whole thing just left a terrible taste in my mouth from the
00:28:06.140 fact that they were, that it was Better Health to begin with and not like go talk to a licensed
00:28:11.860 mental health professional in your community or whatever. And the fact that it was like,
00:28:14.720 I think they were offering like three months or something. I'm like, oh yeah, if you almost died
00:28:18.000 in a crowd crush incident, you might need more than a free BetterHelp trial to help you navigate
00:28:23.080 that. And it just felt to me like, oh, these people were harmed. And now to compensate for
00:28:29.820 that harm, they are going to be served up for another platform that will only further exploit
00:28:35.180 and take from them. I found it really despicable. And so one of the things that came up in that
00:28:39.760 episode that we did about BetterHelp was the relationship that BetterHelp has with the
00:28:44.140 podcasting industry, if you listen to podcasts, which I guess you obviously do because you're
00:28:48.820 hearing me say this right now, or I guess maybe you're my upstairs neighbor who is listening to
00:28:54.380 me record this, I bet. If you listen to podcasts, you've probably heard an ad for BetterHelp or two.
00:29:01.080 According to NBC, in March, BetterHelp spent $8.3 million on podcast opportunities,
00:29:07.660 nearly double the next biggest sponsor, which is Amazon. And also, just to put that in context,
00:29:12.700 they spent $8.3 million on podcasting opportunity advertising in March alone. What they had to pay
00:29:20.160 for misusing the data of almost a million people was $7.8 million. So there's really, it's like,
00:29:27.080 when I say that it feels like a slap on the wrist or a drop in the bucket to them,
00:29:30.580 that is what I mean. They could just pull their advertising from podcasts for a month and it would
00:29:35.440 still be more than they paid out to these people whose data they misused. And despite the fact
00:29:40.780 that we have made episodes talking about better help and their sometimes not so great policies,
00:29:47.060 they have reached out to us to advertise on this podcast. And it kind of goes back to something
00:29:52.420 that came up in our Andrew Huberman episodes that, you know, podcasting is this weird space where
00:29:57.900 it's a business and that in a lot of cases, you just have to take ads to make sure that the people
00:30:02.960 who make the show can continue to be paid. But you walk this line of not wanting to take money
00:30:09.760 from companies whose practices are not on the level with wanting to keep the lights on. And
00:30:14.820 so I don't want to make it seem like I'm gloating that like, oh, podcasters who made ads for Better
00:30:20.020 Help are bad and they should be doing X, Y, Z, because I recognize as a podcaster, I completely
00:30:25.900 get that it is complicated. But because Better Help took up so much space in the podcasting
00:30:33.600 landscape, I just think it's important to talk about this on a podcast. And if you've heard
00:30:38.020 BetterHelp ads and you thought about using BetterHelp. This is just information and context
00:30:42.060 that you should know about how the government says they have been exploiting people who pay
00:30:48.520 for their services. Okay, so a quick heads up that this story does involve sex crimes against
00:30:54.820 children. A New York Times piece just added a lot more context to a story that we've been talking
00:31:00.440 about a ton on the podcast. And that is the way that Instagram has been knowingly connecting
00:31:05.440 children to adult men who are sexually interested in kids. So people who run brands related to
00:31:11.740 children for products like children's jewelry or children's clothing will run paid ads on Instagram
00:31:17.280 and they'll tell Instagram, like, I want to show these ads to people who are interested in things
00:31:21.720 related to kids, like obviously trying to reach moms who might buy kids' clothing or kids' jewelry,
00:31:26.160 which makes a ton of sense. But then they will look at their backend data and that data will
00:31:31.340 show them that Instagram is actually serving those ads, which are pictures of kids using
00:31:37.420 these products, to adult men.
00:31:40.440 This whole thing started when a mom happened to reach out to the New York Times after seeing
00:31:46.220 their previous reporting.
00:31:47.760 The New York Times writes, when a children's jewelry maker began advertising on Instagram,
00:31:52.500 she promoted photos of a five-year-old girl wearing a sparkly charm to users interested
00:31:56.580 in parenting, children, ballet, and other topics identified by Meta as appealing mostly
00:32:00.820 to women.
00:32:01.340 But when the merchant got the automated results of her ad campaign from Instagram, the opposite had happened.
00:32:06.740 The ads had gone almost entirely to adult men.
00:32:09.920 Perplexed and concerned, the merchant contacted the New York Times, which had recently published multiple articles about the abuse of children on social media platforms.
00:32:17.900 In February, the Times investigated Instagram accounts run by parents for their young daughters and the dark underworld of men who have sexualized interactions with those accounts.
00:32:26.740 With the photos from the jewelry ads in hand, the Times set out to understand why they attracted an unwanted audience.
00:32:34.080 Test ads run by the Times using the same photos with no text not only replicated the merchant's experience,
00:32:40.100 they drew the attention of convicted sex offenders and other men whose accounts indicated a sexual interest in children or who wrote sexual messages.
00:32:48.720 So the Times was like, we're going to get to the bottom of this.
00:32:51.000 They did an investigation where their reporters opened two Instagram accounts and promoted posts showing a five-year-old girl, her face turned away from the camera, wearing a tank top and a charm.
00:33:00.740 Then separate posts showed the clothing and jewelry without the child model or with a black box kind of covering her up.
00:33:06.660 All of the paid ads were promoted to people interested in topics like childhood, dance, and cheerleading, which Meta's audience tools estimated as predominantly women.
00:33:14.580 What they found from this experiment is horrifying.
00:33:18.260 Aside from reaching a surprisingly large proportion of men, the ads got direct responses from dozens of Instagram users, including phone calls from two accused sex offenders, offers to pay the child for sexual acts and professions of love.
00:33:35.220 Ugh, that is gross. That seems like the sort of thing that police should be involved in.
00:33:43.340 Well, yeah. And I guess what makes it even more horrifying is that all of this really suggests that the platform's algorithms are playing a role in directing these men to photos of children to sexualize and DM and reach out to.
00:33:57.100 And so previously we had talked about this bombshell New York Times investigation about how Instagram was using a loophole to allow grown adult men to connect directly with children like as young as like five, six, seven on the platform by allowing men to subscribe to these like mommy run accounts that were set up on behalf of the children.
00:34:18.240 because adults are not meant to be able to subscribe to the accounts of kids.
00:34:24.160 But if the account is technically like a mom-run account,
00:34:27.580 that is a loophole where adults can subscribe to the content of kids.
00:34:32.040 And this New York Times investigation showed that people who worked at Facebook were like,
00:34:37.900 oh, this seems to be a loophole that is allowing grown men to connect with children.
00:34:43.100 So Facebook was certainly aware this was happening.
00:34:45.420 Their own engineers were telling them this was happening.
00:34:47.380 And so this new report says there is a lot of overlap between the men who are connecting to children via these mom-run accounts and the men for whom the algorithm is surfacing this paid ad content involving kids.
00:35:02.620 The New York Times writes,
00:35:03.380 An analysis of the users who interacted with these ads posted by the Times found an overlap between these two worlds.
00:35:09.700 About three dozen of the men followed child influencer accounts that were run by parents and were previously studied by the Times.
00:35:15.940 One followed 140 of them.
00:35:18.340 In addition, nearly 100 of the men followed accounts featured or advertising adult pornography, which is barred under Instagram's rules.
00:35:26.000 So all of this is like pretty horrifying, pretty terrible.
00:35:30.420 Do you want to take a guess at Instagram's response to all of this?
00:35:34.560 Was it like a snappy sweater and a silver chain?
00:35:38.560 It was, have you seen Mark Zuckerberg's new look?
00:35:42.100 People are saying he has a hashtag glow up.
00:35:45.840 No, their response was, it's really not that big of a deal.
00:35:49.380 Danny Lever, a spokesperson for Meta, dismissed the Times ad test as, quote,
00:35:53.780 a manufactured experience that failed to account for the many factors that contribute to who ultimately sees an ad.
00:36:00.420 and suggested that it was flawed and unsound to draw conclusions from limited data.
00:36:04.720 This really reminds me of how Twitter responded when Media Matters and other watchdog organizations
00:36:09.700 were pointing out these dark pockets where nefarious people were using the platform to gather.
00:36:16.180 And they were like, oh, well, you would only see that if you met XYZ circumstances.
00:36:20.760 That's manufactured data.
00:36:22.720 But that is exactly the point.
00:36:24.880 Like, pedophiles are taking advantage of these unexamined corners of the platform to connect with kids.
00:36:31.160 So even if they're saying, well, most people wouldn't get these results and most people wouldn't have this experience, that is exactly what these people are saying, is that pedophiles are taking advantage of the fact that this is a little bit under the radar to operate in plain sight.
00:36:45.260 So the way that Facebook is responding, it makes me feel like they don't really understand what's actually the threat here.
00:36:50.760 Yeah. And I think I totally agree that they it sounds a lot like that way, the way Twitter responded to that Media Matters investigation of like how easy it was to get to hateful comment through specific searches.
00:37:10.240 but this actually feels substantially different from that when you were describing what the times
00:37:15.080 did it sounded like a quite good experiment that was set up using paid ads to see what the algorithm
00:37:22.600 would do and to you know who would surface this ad to so uh you know they can this spokesperson
00:37:31.980 can say that the methodology was flawed and unsound but when you described it to me it
00:37:36.760 It sounded pretty sound.
00:37:39.480 Well, what's interesting is that the New York Times talked to like former Facebook engineers and then they talked to Peter Sapiensky, a research scientist at Northeastern University who specializes in testing online algorithms.
00:37:52.320 And he basically said that, like, it sounds like these algorithms are working as intended and as designed by Facebook.
00:38:00.220 So what's really interesting to me is that the potential algorithmic reason that this is happening, which is that most ads on Instagram are designed to reach women because women are more likely to be buying stuff from Instagram ads.
00:38:13.080 And so we're like a more competitive audience.
00:38:15.740 However, reaching men is a lot easier.
00:38:18.320 Peter Sapiensky, that research scientist at Northeastern, put it this way.
00:38:22.300 He said that advertisers compete with one another to reach women because they dominate U.S. consumer spending.
00:38:27.700 He said as a result, the algorithm probably focused on highly interested, easier to reach men who had interacted with similar content.
00:38:35.220 The men do engage, he said. The machine is doing exactly what you want it to do.
00:38:40.640 Yeah, like on one level, that is what the machine is supposed to do.
00:38:45.240 On another level, it seems pretty bad that that is what the machine is supposed to do.
00:38:52.080 Like, there should probably be something to prevent that from happening.
00:38:57.840 So as horrifying as all of this is, the Times also looked into the kind of men who were DMing and engaging with these accounts, some of whom use their real names or link to their real identities in their Facebook pages.
00:39:10.080 And some of them have convictions for sex crimes against children.
00:39:14.060 Now, per Metta's rules, people who are sex offenders or have been convicted of sex crimes against kids are not allowed to have Instagram accounts.
00:39:22.420 However, these people did have Instagram accounts, and it's not clear how they did have Instagram accounts.
00:39:27.740 Like, they're meant to be registering their email addresses, and Metta has a program that is meant to keep them from having these accounts.
00:39:35.160 I don't know why or how, but that did not work.
00:39:37.580 So when the New York Times used Meta's internal tool to flag these accounts and tell Facebook, like, hey, these people have been convicted of sex crimes against kids or, hey, these people are on sex offender registries, per your rules, they should not have Instagram accounts.
00:39:52.800 They used Meta's own internal tools to flag these accounts and Meta did not remove them.
00:39:58.900 According to the New York Times, the accounts remained online for about a week until the Times flagged them to a company spokesperson.
00:40:04.520 And so I guess this is my point. If you have these rules in place, but then do nothing to make sure that they are followed, in what way is it a meaningful rule? The fact that your own tool that you internally use to flag accounts that should not be on your platform, that the New York Times could be flagging people who have been convicted of sex crimes against kids that you know are then using your platform to try to connect with children sexually,
00:40:31.380 and you just leave them up
00:40:32.980 until the New York Times
00:40:34.360 has to directly reach out
00:40:36.440 to a spokesperson,
00:40:37.400 I would say that something
00:40:38.480 is very broken,
00:40:39.880 but per the algorithm expert
00:40:42.040 at Northeastern,
00:40:43.400 things are working as intended.
00:40:45.120 And so, you know,
00:40:46.200 it's really hard to say
00:40:48.020 that something is broken
00:40:50.320 when it actually kind of seems like
00:40:52.360 things are working
00:40:53.360 like they were designed to work.
00:40:55.340 Yeah, well said.
00:40:56.020 more after a quick break
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00:41:52.860 If your bookshelf and your For You page
00:41:54.840 are equally important to your personality,
00:41:57.260 welcome home.
00:41:59.080 This is Prose Society,
00:42:01.040 the weekly podcast that's part book club,
00:42:03.440 part group chat for thought daughters,
00:42:05.200 pop culture obsessives,
00:42:06.420 and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice
00:42:08.220 and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.
00:42:11.260 I'm Eli Rallo, and every week,
00:42:12.960 we're connecting the dots between books,
00:42:14.940 the internet, and the conversations
00:42:16.360 everyone can't stop having.
00:42:18.180 I'm going to have to look up this story.
00:42:20.280 I'm obsessed, I'm obsessed.
00:42:21.960 From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators
00:42:24.560 to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table.
00:42:28.280 It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters,
00:42:33.880 then that is a Trojan horse.
00:42:35.720 Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations,
00:42:39.760 or a community of readers who love to think a little too much,
00:42:43.280 you're in the right place.
00:42:44.620 Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app,
00:42:47.560 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages.
00:42:58.140 Let's get right back into it.
00:43:03.200 Okay, so we have to talk about what is being called on the internet, bumble fumble. So there
00:43:09.020 is a ton going on in the dating app scene right now, namely that a lot of women are just fed up 0.99
00:43:15.040 with dating apps. As y'all might recall, Bumble, the dating app founded by Whitney Wolf Heard,
00:43:20.500 used to have this thing where their whole sort of gimmick was that the women on the dating app
00:43:25.640 would have to message first, and you couldn't talk to a woman without her being the first person to 0.77
00:43:30.240 initiate conversation. But last week, they announced they are not doing that anymore.
00:43:35.580 According to NPR, women can now add prompts to their profiles for men to respond to.
00:43:40.560 for same-sex and non-binary users, either person can set and respond to these prompts
00:43:45.860 called opening moves. This is all happening against a backdrop of, I guess, what you could
00:43:52.160 call dating app fatigue. People are sort of sick of dating apps. I think that the idea that you
00:43:58.300 would have to put so much work in to actually find a suitable mate, I also think there's some
00:44:03.780 screen time fatigue happening where the idea that you would be on your phone, on your screen all
00:44:09.520 the time and that that is the key to finding your mate. I think a lot of people are just fed up with
00:44:14.260 that. So listen, I have to say, I am fascinated by the dating app Bumble as a company. When it
00:44:22.180 first started, the creator, Whitney Wolf Heard, was working at Tinder. And in 2014, she was part
00:44:28.380 of a team that launched Bumble after this pretty tumultuous departure from Tinder, which she also
00:44:34.120 helped launch. According to NPR, she had this like string of bad relationships, one of which
00:44:39.400 even involved a sexual harassment lawsuit against one of Tinder's co-founders, which was later
00:44:44.600 settled. So she used all of this experience to build a platform that put more power in the hands
00:44:51.520 of women. So all of that sounds great, right? Like more power and the women messaging first,
00:44:58.360 That gives women a lot more autonomy, right? Sounds great. However, NPR spoke to Demona Hoffman, an online dating coach and the author of the book, F the Fairy Tale, who basically said this whole women message first thing just leaves a lot of women feeling like they have to do the bulk of the work on dating sites and the bulk of the work to keep the conversation going, keep things moving is on them. 1.00
00:45:23.860 Which, if you are already working a full-time job, who wants dating to feel like another job?
00:45:29.920 Like, dating is supposed to be fun.
00:45:31.460 It's supposed to be enjoyable.
00:45:33.240 Who wants something that's like, oh, yeah, more work piled on it?
00:45:37.020 And because it's dating apps and they're, like, algorithmically generated, at the end of the day, we're only surfacing you the duds.
00:45:44.480 Not the duds.
00:45:46.440 Oh, man. 0.93
00:45:48.200 It's a rough group to be in, the dud group.
00:45:50.860 Yeah. I mean, your mileage may vary for what a dud is to you, but you know a dud when you see one. And algorithms know who the duds are, and those are the only profiles they surface to you unless you are willing to pay for premium. Then they might show you somebody that you might actually want to have sex with. But until you pay up, it's duds.
00:46:12.560 Ah, poor broke duds.
00:46:15.320 So I think all of this is kind of adding to this backdrop of dating app fatigue that people, particularly women, are feeling with these apps.
00:46:25.280 However, Whitney Wolfherd, the co-founder of Bumble, actually has suggested an answer.
00:46:32.620 Your AI could just go on a date for you.
00:46:35.800 Here's what she said.
00:46:36.860 If you want to get really out there, there's a world where your AI dating concierge could go on a date for you with other dating concierges.
00:46:43.440 truly and then you don't have to talk to 600 people it will scan all of san francisco for you
00:46:49.480 and say these are the three people you really ought to meet so for example you could in the
00:46:54.220 near future be talking to your ai dating concierge and share your insecurities i've just come out of
00:46:59.420 a breakup i've got commitment issues and it could help you train yourself into a better way of
00:47:04.060 thinking about yourself sounds nice but also creepy and also like come on that's that's not
00:47:11.300 going to work. I would be remiss if I did not mention there was literally a Black Mirror episode
00:47:15.460 about two people's AIs dating each other within the framework of a dating app. And that's how
00:47:22.700 they find each other and know they're compatible. So given the story that we talked about earlier
00:47:27.320 about BetterHelp, about how they just give the most intimate data and information about us to
00:47:33.060 Facebook and Snapchat and whoever else for money, I think we really should be wary of this kind of
00:47:39.660 AI integration into our romantic and sexual lives. So I know that the idea of an AI dating
00:47:45.140 concierge is very different from like an AI enabled chatbot or lovebot or sexbot or romantic
00:47:52.680 partner, but Mozilla Foundation looked into it and found in an analysis of 11 romantic chatbot
00:47:58.820 apps released in February that nearly every app tested, sells user data, shares it for advertising,
00:48:05.760 or doesn't provide adequate information about any of these points in its privacy policies.
00:48:12.000 So basically, it's just the wild, wild west already when it comes to AI and romance.
00:48:18.400 And I think these kinds of things become even more concerning for like queer or gender expansive
00:48:24.080 people. Like, are you someplace where it's safe to have AI offering up intimate information about
00:48:30.260 who you are and your identity to a potential date that you yourself have not personally vetted?
00:48:35.760 Like, are you safe if that information has pretty much no policies around who that platform is going to share it with, how they will share it with them, what third parties will have access to it?
00:48:48.060 You know, I have said this before that when you're talking about connecting with people in ways that are intimate and happening IRL, safety and privacy isn't just a nice to have, like it genuinely does matter.
00:49:02.100 And I'm just not sure that I would trust AI designed by, like, mostly white, straight, cis men that we know is, like, buggy and full of problems to do that for me if the stakes really were high.
00:49:14.700 Yeah, the stakes definitely do seem pretty high.
00:49:18.020 Yeah, especially if you're dating someplace where it's not safe to be your identity.
00:49:22.400 If you're queer or trans or gay, like, this is real.
00:49:26.260 So we have to talk about those Bumble ads, which are sort of being referred to as the Bumble Fumble.
00:49:33.400 When I first saw this reported, I was like, wow, they're really missing an opportunity to like make Bumble Fumble a thing.
00:49:38.780 But we got there eventually. So Bumble Fumble.
00:49:41.760 Basically, Bumble released these billboards saying things like, you know, full well, a vow of celibacy is not the answer. 0.54
00:49:50.120 And thou shall not give up on dating and become a nun.
00:49:53.440 The ads were criticized and Bumble apologized saying, we made a mistake. Our ads referencing
00:49:59.260 celibacy were an attempt to lean into a community frustrated by modern dating. And instead of
00:50:04.200 bringing joy and humor, we unintentionally did the opposite. So I actually saw a lot of the
00:50:12.040 criticism of these billboards and people were saying like, oh, they're knocking celibacy as
00:50:16.940 a lifestyle, all of that. Totally get that. But I actually have a different take. So I think that
00:50:23.620 if anything, the problem that Bumble was actually like making light of in a way that was in poor
00:50:30.420 taste is that Bumble is just no longer serving women who they say is their like main intended
00:50:37.340 user base. So more and more women are just getting off of these platforms. And on top of that,
00:50:43.860 more and more bots are on these platforms too like i recently watched the ashley madison
00:50:49.720 documentary on netflix and it is so wild how they're basically like oh yeah on top of the 0.92
00:50:55.660 like cheating most of the time we were just like charging stupid men 20 a month to chat with bots
00:51:03.580 and other men and themselves right so like dating apps are kind of a like house of cards where 0.99
00:51:10.160 women have been like, this sucks, we're leaving. And these platforms are like, oh God, we have to
00:51:16.100 charge men who want to be in conversation with women for something. And a lot of that is bots.
00:51:21.580 And so I actually see these ads as almost this like weird tone deaf plea to women to come back
00:51:30.720 to these platforms, even though these platforms are kind of acknowledging that they failed them
00:51:35.580 because the platforms need women on them to make money and so i totally see what people who are
00:51:41.940 saying like oh this was a dig on celibacy are saying but i think it's actually more insulting
00:51:46.160 than that i think what these platforms are saying is like listen women we need you on this platform 0.94
00:51:52.400 to make money so like what are you gonna do be celibate no way come back to our platform yeah 0.66
00:51:58.220 Yeah, it does feel a little like desperate and like trying to be edgy, but just coming off as desperate, which is definitely not a good look if you've ever been on a dating platform.
00:52:11.300 Especially if you are the dating platform.
00:52:14.120 And I think desperate is the right word for it.
00:52:16.720 And I just feel like I wish we lived in a world where what these platforms were offering was functionally and meaningfully just something better, something that feels like respect and fun and exploration and excitement, not just fatigue.
00:52:34.720 Like, I don't know.
00:52:35.860 I think it mirrors a lot of the different ways that people are feeling about digital experience these days, but it's just fatigue.
00:52:41.860 So Bumble really fumbled on this one.
00:52:46.000 I'm glad they apologized. But I think the problem is deeper than just these billboards. I think that they are not serving women. Women are smart enough to not stick around where they are not having good experiences and where it's clear that they, you know, aren't wanted or aren't valued.
00:53:03.240 And I think it's a real problem, not just for the women that they're failing to serve, but also for their business model. You can't just have a dynamic that women feel like they're being mistreated and not served and expect them to continue showing up for more of the same.
00:53:19.360 Yeah. And maybe the problem is even broader and deeper that, you know, the problem they're trying to solve is people lacking human connection in their life.
00:53:35.020 And there's just a fundamental tension of offering people a digital tool to solve that problem, where the financial success of that digital tool depends on people continuing to use that tool and continuing to engage with it and pay subscription fees month after month.
00:53:55.380 Yes.
00:53:56.200 You know, you can you can have one, but you can't have both.
00:53:58.480 And I fundamentally believe, you know, later on in this conversation with Bloomberg that Wendy Wolf Heard had about the future of online dating, she was talking about this loneliness epidemic that we're all in.
00:54:13.940 And that's very real, but I'm not sure that the people who have given us our current tech and digital landscape are the same ones that I would trust or want to be using technology to solve our current loneliness crisis.
00:54:32.080 Like the people that got us into our current situation are not the people that I would trust to get us out of it.
00:54:37.060 Like if you drove my car into a ditch, I don't think I would trust you to drive it out of the ditch.
00:54:42.140 I might say, it's time for you to sit in the backseat
00:54:44.720 and let somebody else take a turn at the wheel.
00:54:46.820 Yeah.
00:54:47.500 Well, Mike, thanks for being in the passenger seat
00:54:49.720 on this journey through this week's tech stories.
00:54:54.020 I appreciate it.
00:54:55.280 Bridget, it's always a pleasant ride.
00:54:57.660 And let's do it again sometime soon.
00:55:01.060 And thanks to all of you for listening.
00:55:02.660 I will see you on the internet.
00:55:09.360 If you're looking for ways to support the show,
00:55:11.180 check out our merch store at tangody.com slash store.
00:55:15.300 Got a story about an interesting thing in tech
00:55:17.360 or just want to say hi?
00:55:18.820 You can reach us at hello at tangody.com.
00:55:21.120 You can also find transcripts for today's episode
00:55:22.920 at tangody.com.
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