Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Can Creativity and Motherhood CoExist？

00:00:00.000 Hey all, Jo here and you are listening to Under the Influence. 0.99

00:00:09.380 One of the things that I get asked by young women at a lot of my book events was how creative 1.00

00:00:15.380 were you before you had kids? And how did that change after you had kids? And I gotta

00:00:21.700 say, I mean, what I tell them all the time is that, frankly, I think that I'm even more

00:00:27.220 creative post-having kids. I think my brain has changed in different ways. But more importantly,

00:00:33.720 I'm definitely, definitely more efficient with my creativity. There's a lot of myths out there. I

00:00:40.600 mean, it's no wonder that young women think this, because a lot of people will tell women that

00:00:46.120 having kids will kill your creativity, that you'll never write, that you'll never paint again,

00:00:51.080 maybe even that you'll never shower again. That part is true. I shower less. I do. I do. But the

00:00:58.740 creativity part, that is massive BS. It is. And it's not just me. It is for every mother that I

00:01:04.560 know. Today I'm talking to M.M. DeVoe. She is a writer who I met at the Adriatic Writers Conference

00:01:11.340 and she's the founder of Pen Parentis. Pen Parentis is a non-profit that she built to help

00:01:17.300 writers stay creative after they have kids. And we're going to get into all of it today.

00:01:22.900 We are going to talk about that feeling of panic that you're never going to get another word on

00:01:27.200 the page, but then also the strange productivity that happens during both pregnancy and, and I

00:01:34.340 promise, during the postpartum period. But all of this doesn't come without a price. There's also

00:01:40.180 a lot of guilt that follows you around, whether you are with your kids or you're at your desk.

00:01:46.220 Even still, if I'm with my kids, I still kind of feel like I should be writing.

00:01:52.380 And if I'm writing, I still feel like I should be with my kids.

00:01:55.240 And that is something that I work on every day because I'm like, get rid of this, Joe.

00:01:59.680 There should be no guilt or shame here.

00:02:01.680 You are a creative person in the world.

00:02:04.120 This is your job.

00:02:04.920 And you're also a good mother.

00:02:06.720 And two things can be true.

00:02:09.540 Today's episode is about refusing to give up your creative life just because you became

00:02:13.520 someone's mom or dad.

00:02:15.200 Our kids do not need perfect parents who are around them all the time, hovering over their

00:02:20.820 every move. They want parents who are there. And I think as important as that, they need parents

00:02:26.420 who are lit up by doing something that they love and they need to see that. Here's my chat with

00:02:32.100 Em. I'm so excited to be here with you today to talk about one of my favorite subjects, which is

00:02:40.980 creativity and motherhood and whether or not the two can exist together.

00:02:47.540 What did you think was going to happen to your creativity when you had a kid?

00:02:51.960 In the gestation process of creating a child, as the child was growing, there was impending doom,

00:02:59.120 maybe the feeling of pressure of not knowing what was going to happen next of like, I can't

00:03:06.440 believe how productive I was in the few months that I knew that I was pregnant like I went crazy

00:03:13.740 I have two kids and both times like not knowing what life was going to be like after you added

00:03:21.280 another person to your circle of influence like I just I was producing so many pages and editing

00:03:28.960 everything and trying to finish everything that I had ever started because the fear of course

00:03:35.280 is that you'll never write again the fear is that you'll never get something out into the real into

00:03:41.980 the world you know like that ever again ever again yeah that life is going to change and you're going

00:03:47.580 to change and everything's going to be different and that's preposterous you're just adding a new

00:03:52.400 relationship to your life like we never feel that way when we're like i want to go and have a

00:03:58.060 relationship like when you're going out on a dating app or something you don't go wow i wonder

00:04:02.920 if this is going to affect my creativity if i find a girlfriend i wonder if if i get married

00:04:08.460 is it going to totally change my productivity because you wouldn't get married if it was going

00:04:15.480 to change your creative right like right just but we do but we do think it about parenting jobs

00:04:24.540 because people keep equating parenthood with a career should be like you know like when you were

00:04:31.540 little and your parent had a second child you're suddenly a big sister and now you have to figure

00:04:39.040 out what that means in your life you're suddenly a mom you have to figure out what that means in

00:04:43.620 your life it doesn't mean like you have like i don't know mothers don't have bosses we are the

00:04:49.840 bosses we are we are the bosses we are we are as my daughter likes to say i'm the boss of my body

00:04:56.020 that's what i'm like yeah you are girl yeah you are but i'm i'm with you when i was pregnant i was

00:05:02.820 the most creative and the most productive that i had ever been and i will say that i am also much

00:05:10.960 more productive and efficient post having kids now and i don't know if that was because of the fear

00:05:17.060 or the hormones or a mixture of all of this but i talk to young women a lot who are afraid

00:05:24.200 to have kids because they do have that fear. They do think that they're never

00:05:29.260 going to achieve a creative life. And I like to talk about my life as often as possible because

00:05:35.320 I think that I've found a way to do both. I feel like a very present mother of three kids and I

00:05:41.980 feel like a very productive author and creative person in the world. And it's hard, but everything

00:05:46.940 is hard. Everything is hard. There you go. That's like the thing. Everything is hard, but everything

00:05:53.520 is possible. Like, yeah, you're going to have to work. And then there's a lot of reward when you

00:06:01.660 work hard, when you organize your time or or even if you're not an organized person, when you're the

00:06:07.740 kind of person that just grabs a few minutes here and there and make something out of them. Or if

00:06:11.900 you're not that kind of person, if you're a kind of person who goes and gets an accountability

00:06:16.500 group and becomes accountable to somebody else for your writing, it doesn't matter how you make

00:06:22.280 it work what matters is that you want to you your desire to have a creative life and then you make

00:06:29.880 it happen for yourself there are so many ways to succeed in the world you know there's one way to

00:06:36.600 fail that's the quit yeah no absolutely so yeah talk to me a little bit about you have your first

00:06:43.280 kid and you're very very prolific and the creativity is just bubbling up what happens in

00:06:50.120 your life afterwards? Well, obviously that's going to depend on how much support you have from

00:06:55.640 whoever made the kid with you or whoever you're taking care of the kid with, or if you're alone.

00:07:01.700 Like your support system is going to make a lot of difference as to how much negotiating you have

00:07:08.900 to do. But basically I would say that when you add a child as a new relationship in your life,

00:07:15.240 Now you have to reassess your time, your energy, and your money, and how much you're going to allocate to yourself, to your career, to your hobbies, to your showering capabilities.

00:07:29.200 I was out of negotiations about that, right?

00:07:33.400 Totally. I shower less.

00:07:35.280 No, I just, I shower less. Okay, I'm going to admit it.

00:07:39.060 And yet you smell delicious.

00:07:40.680 I do smell delicious, actually.

00:07:44.620 But, or you can just shower shorter and more frequently.

00:07:47.840 There's a million, like I said, there's a thousand solutions identifying that there is a situation is first.

00:07:57.140 You're like, okay, my new situation is I am 24-7 in charge of a helpless human being until that helpless human being becomes a capable adult.

00:08:09.340 and then you know how do how do i enable that helpless human being to become a capable human

00:08:18.160 being and then everything else is like what else am i going to do with my time like am i going to

00:08:23.840 spend 100 of my time turning this person into a capable i'm going to believe that they're going

00:08:27.520 to help and i'm going to step back and take care of myself too because i'm still a human being

00:08:31.640 and i would like to maintain the human beingness of myself man i'm so intrigued by this idea of

00:08:39.860 adulthood right now like what you were saying about the young person being terrified of becoming

00:08:45.660 a parent i think that has a lot to do with all of us being terrified of being adults because

00:08:51.580 it's too much we're being asked we ask ourselves we ask of ourselves to be too much

00:08:57.420 we are too much world is too much it just feels like you just want to like hide from it and

00:09:04.280 not do anything but i think it's better if we do at least what we can do and what can we do is

00:09:11.420 write something interesting that people will enjoy reading write something that might make somebody

00:09:17.700 think. No, I think, and I think, I think we do. I think you've really hit on something.

00:09:26.400 Adulting in this day and age is so much more work than it was a generation ago. I mean,

00:09:34.580 the world is different. I think the world is harder. We also put so many bigger and scarier

00:09:42.200 expectations on ourselves. And I just, I do wish that we could find ways to give ourselves more

00:09:51.600 grace in this crazy world. I love this idea of, well, you know, a lot of people are shutting off

00:10:00.980 or at least monitoring their exposure to, let's call it the news. But what it really is, is

00:10:09.320 not just national, international, and global news, but also the news of what their friend

00:10:15.900 is doing right this very second. The news of somebody just bought a new dress that you would

00:10:20.980 like to have. Somebody just, their child just started walking and yours hasn't. Like there's

00:10:26.440 all this information that we allow to affect us constantly. And many people are sort of

00:10:36.940 trying to shut that down some people it's it's binary they're like i'm off of everything i'm

00:10:42.580 never looking at the news again i don't think that seems healthy either but and i an idea for

00:10:48.780 being able to manage this 24 7 fire hose of information that we're being asked to judge

00:10:56.920 it might be to like take breaks from it yeah i don't think that we were ever meant to live like

00:11:05.700 this um this intensely online all of the time it's so much and it's too much it truly truly is

00:11:15.220 but we need some like we need to know it's important to know things and to be aware of

00:11:22.960 things outside of just like our our bedrooms or our homes like to be aware of the world at large

00:11:29.260 without feeling overwhelmed with the responsibility for the world or or even to live up to other

00:11:37.780 people's expectations. There's just so much to think about when it comes to all this information

00:11:43.940 that comes at us. It's like, you know, already social media asks us every single thing that we

00:11:50.340 see on social media. We are making a decision whether we like it or don't like it or don't

00:11:57.020 have an opinion on like we know that if we interact with a post we're going to get more

00:12:02.300 posts like that right so if you interact with a book post you get more book posts so

00:12:08.640 we go and interact hopefully we go and interact with book posts to get more book posts

00:12:13.180 it's distracting and difficult because of course the algorithm wants to give you

00:12:21.440 things that upset you things that you know move you and yes that is indeed the world that we live

00:12:29.600 in all right let's let's take a let's take a quick break here and when we get back i want

00:12:34.880 to talk a little bit about pen parentis and what made you start this group

00:12:40.140 okay we are back i want to talk a little bit about what pen parentis is and what they do

00:12:54.560 they are a literary non-profit that help writers stay on their creative tracks after they have

00:13:01.080 kids one of the things they do so well is creating community among parent writers through weekly

00:13:06.800 meetups, as well as monthly literary events online. They bring on really successful writers

00:13:11.660 and other kinds of creatives who've balanced parenting and their craft. For me, it's the

00:13:16.480 community. It always is. I say that. Look, like, parenting doesn't just take a village. Life takes

00:13:21.840 a village. And that is what I'm getting into with Em in the second half of this episode.

00:13:27.600 So there's so many different community aspects of what you're doing. How important is it

00:13:36.780 for parents who who want to who want to be in these creative careers how important is it to

00:13:44.140 find a community and find a community that is going to support you i would say it is the number

00:13:49.220 one most vital thing in the universe to have a writing community even if that is one person

00:13:56.160 who is eager to read what you have written and some people find that community on like instagram

00:14:03.940 They might have people that care, but I don't think you'll keep writing if nobody cares.

00:14:11.900 And that's why I think the community is so important.

00:14:14.520 And I mean, that's for parents, that's for anybody.

00:14:16.840 When you finish your MFA program or if you've written something, you've written a poem, you want somebody to read it.

00:14:25.200 And before you can launch it into the world, a lot of times you need somebody to help you make it better.

00:14:33.940 And so, like, having a writing community is just, it's absolutely vital. You find your editors, you find your readers, you find opinions, you find your, what are they called, sensitivity readers. You expand your resources exponentially when you have other writers to talk to.

00:14:50.820 And that was one of the reasons that we started Pemprentes. When I say we, I mean, I. I didn't have, I had my grad school friends, but none of them had kids. Well, one of them had kids. And she and I would go to lunch and be like, how do people do this?

00:15:07.440 And so she and I together started this reading series that we just presented writers who have

00:15:14.680 kids. And from this reading series, people would come up to us after the readers would read and be

00:15:20.220 like, I want to join this organization. And I would say, there's no organization. And eventually

00:15:26.460 I'm like, maybe we should make an organization. And my friend was like, I'm a writer. I just want

00:15:30.200 to write. And I said, well, I'll do this organization. So I started the organization.

00:15:34.020 But it was literally because everybody seemed to want it so badly. Like, people just, they have their parent friends, but they don't, like, after they have kids, they no longer have such tight contact with their writer friends. Because writer parents have unique issues.

00:15:55.940 Talk to me a little bit about that. What do you think are the unique issues of writer parents?

00:16:01.580 I would say, well, one of them is the fact that a lot of our choices are made for our kids.

00:16:07.020 So where you live is no longer I live in the best literary community I can find.

00:16:14.360 It is I live where I can afford to live or where my kids will have a yard or whatever reason that is child centric near some special needs school that my kid has to go to.

00:16:27.560 Like, those are adult choices that you are choosing for somebody else, not necessarily for yourself. And just to make sure that your family is better, you know. Sometimes people go where their spouse works, right? And creating that new writing community over and over again, that's a uniquely parent, I think. I don't know if it's uniquely parent, but it's a very parent-known thing.

00:16:53.780 But then also the 24-7 of being a writer and the 24-7 of being a parent will frequently conflict in the sense that, you know, your kid has a fever and you have to go and pick them up even though you have an agent meeting that day.

00:17:11.580 And that is a typical conflict that working parents have. But very few emerging writers consider themselves professional enough to be able to say, wow, you know what, husband, I have an agent meeting. Could you go and pick up my child?

00:17:30.620 the mom is like no my child i must go pick up my child you know and so i'm not saying that it's one

00:17:39.660 is more important than the other i think that the problem is is that people equate them as one is

00:17:45.160 more important than the other and i don't think it is i think it's a i think it's one is a business

00:17:51.840 choice and one is a personal i have to do this choice if that makes sense no it makes it makes

00:17:58.960 a ton of sense you bring together so many writers who are also parents what is some of the best

00:18:04.100 or or most surprising advice that you've heard from them surprising advice um i mean the best

00:18:11.920 advice is just keep going and find the time make the time make the time is really the best advice

00:18:18.180 you can outsource a lot of household stuff that isn't like laundry or like you can teach your

00:18:27.860 kids how to do the laundry a lot younger than you think you can oh but how young how young did you

00:18:33.800 teach your kids to do the laundry i don't know my i mean my kids my kids didn't do a lot of laundry

00:18:39.140 but but i got my spouse to do laundry for a while i found myself outsourcing a lot of housework

00:18:44.540 because or just not doing it as often and dealing with it all at once or doing it with the kids

00:18:51.320 around. Like a lot of times, I think when I had really young kids, the common thing to do was to

00:19:00.540 spend, let's call it quote unquote quality time, which meant educating them. Like you're sitting

00:19:08.060 there and you're being a teacher, doing flashcards or, you know, this is what people were doing on

00:19:12.400 the internet. People were showing off their infant flashcard sets and how quickly their child

00:19:18.860 learned numbers it was kind of the crazy time because when i started pen prentice it was

00:19:24.660 remember 2009 and in 2009 that was when the first mommy blogger crested uh six figures

00:19:33.940 and so the questions that i was asked once i graduated from i have an mfa from columbia

00:19:41.020 and i wanted to be a writer and i here i am i'm out in the world i'm winning awards i find myself

00:19:47.240 pregnant and people are saying oh you have a child are you a mommy blogger and i'm like no i'm a i

00:19:55.540 want what no i can't novel like oh is it for children no i'm like i was just so baffled by

00:20:05.780 this because i thought do people do this to their doctors like when their doctor says oh you know

00:20:11.900 i know that i'm the best heart surgeon in this city i just discovered that i'm pregnant do they

00:20:17.000 go, oh, are you going to become a pediatrician now? Like nobody does that, but they do it.

00:20:22.700 No, they do it to writers.

00:20:24.320 All the time. They're like, oh, you must be writing a picture book. I'm like, no. I mean,

00:20:29.480 I can if I want to, but I'm actually writing something else, you know? And then they're

00:20:34.540 just very confused by that. Like, why would you, why would you maintain your career? But then

00:20:38.700 people are often, they have troubles with people who maintain their careers after having kids.

00:20:45.280 I don't know. There's some kind of mythology around parenthood needing to make you into a

00:20:52.560 boring person with no creative outlets. I don't know why that is. Because the coolest parents I

00:21:00.200 know all have creative outlets. They're all like interesting rock stars and museum painters. You

00:21:08.720 know, like their stuff. They're interesting. Totally. And their kids are interesting.

00:21:13.400 And their kids, and I think their kids are more interesting for it, too, to be honest.

00:21:18.780 I just love creativity and parenthood.

00:21:21.040 It helps you think outside the box.

00:21:24.080 All right.

00:21:24.460 Absolutely.

00:21:25.220 Absolutely.

00:21:26.240 All right.

00:21:26.500 Let's take one more quick break.

00:21:28.040 And when we get back, I just, I want to talk a little bit about the balance of it all and the shame of it all.

00:21:35.960 I try as often as possible to talk about caregiving, to talk about outsourcing things, to talk about how much my husband helps.

00:21:44.600 But I do think that as women, we're often told that we should be able to do it all or we should be able to do it all alone. 0.99

00:21:49.920 And that's bullshit. 1.00

00:21:51.060 I just think that's bullshit. 1.00

00:21:52.080 And we need to take away all of that shame and guilt. 0.99

00:21:55.860 So let's dig into that when we get back.

00:22:04.440 Okay, we're back.

00:22:05.960 You've had so many people come through pen parentis. How often do you hear people say,

00:22:12.580 oh, well, I feel guilt or shame when I choose my kids over my writing or my writing over my kids?

00:22:19.780 I mean, it's like we can't win, right? Correct. If you balance them against each other on a

00:22:25.260 scales of justice, you are going to feel miserable no matter what. When you're writing, you'll hate

00:22:31.180 the fact that you're not with your kids. When you're with your kids, you're going to hate the

00:22:34.260 fact that you're not writing. It is not a scales of justice type balance. I think you have to think

00:22:40.180 of balance as a large mobile, like a calder, like a thousand pieces. And one of them is big and one

00:22:46.840 of them is small. And the closer it is to the center, the more stable it is. And the farther

00:22:52.500 away it is from your center, from what you care about, the more it can go up and down and you can

00:22:57.880 like not do it for a while. Like, I mean, how many of us play the instrument that we played when we

00:23:02.540 were in middle school. You know what I mean? Like, like, you just it's just farther away from

00:23:08.520 what you care about. So it can go up and down. If you care about something, bring it closer to the

00:23:15.460 center. And then it'll be more stable. So you care about your job, you care about your writing,

00:23:22.440 your writing is your job, you keep it very close, you know. And your child is obviously going to be

00:23:28.820 right near that center, right? But when you first put a child on that kind of big mobile, like a

00:23:34.380 baby mobile, it's like putting a bowling ball on the mobile. Yeah, you can balance it, but it's

00:23:40.200 initially it takes a lot and everything is going to move around and then it will all stabilize.

00:23:48.340 I think that's that. I mean, we hope we hope, right? And I think that's something good to

00:23:53.100 remember, too, that none of this really happens right away. It's a process, right? You're not

00:24:00.600 going to hop a baby out of your vagina and the next day finish a novel. And some people have. 1.00

00:24:07.680 I mean, I think that I think the thing is that we shouldn't do is compare ourselves to other

00:24:12.560 parents. Every kid is completely different. Also, every book is completely different.

00:24:17.960 When you're creating something, you have to be in a relationship with that thing, whether it's a baby or a person or a book or a, it's so much about relationships and that, like you said, it has to evolve. It has to, you have to, one of the things, oh, you asked me about guilt.

00:24:36.820 And one of the things that these meetups do is we realize that we all are weighed down by the same guilt, no matter if it is a person who is, I don't know, growing their own radishes and masticating them on purpose organically for their child, or a person who is like, you know what, go eat this chicken nugget that's frozen because I don't have time.

00:25:00.000 Like, it doesn't matter. You're still feeling guilty. You haven't done enough. You can never do enough for your kid ever. And so that feeling like you have to get rid of that guilt feeling before you even move in to the guilt of what you are doing with yourself.

00:25:17.960 like yeah i mean i also feel like i can never do enough for my writing either i mean i turned in

00:25:26.080 i turned in a book today and congratulations thank you that's amazing um yeah no it's great

00:25:34.080 i mean it's the final draft and it's going off to copy editing but i also now i have that feeling

00:25:40.820 i'm like i didn't do enough i didn't like oh my gosh i should have spent more and more hours

00:25:46.480 researching. I should have revised more. I didn't do enough. And so I feel that guilt on both sides

00:25:51.940 and it sucks. But it's the guilt of the creator. Our creation is never perfect. We must continue 0.82

00:25:59.920 to just make new stuff. Like we put new things in the world. Each time you do it, you do another

00:26:06.060 thing. It's you have more time. You have time to make the next book. It can whatever four things

00:26:13.260 you didn't put into this book you could put them in the next book and i mean and i the same with

00:26:20.080 the kid like the kid is not gonna it's not gonna ruin them if you played with them for 15 minutes

00:26:26.660 or you played with them for 17 and a half minutes it's not gonna change who they are inherently as

00:26:33.340 people I don't think I think we really put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do things to make our

00:26:45.640 creations perfect but I think that the creation's perfect it just came out and there it is and now

00:26:51.120 we have to I don't know decorate it it's all decoration no now we have to sell it friend

00:26:58.180 Yeah, we have to stop it.

00:27:00.420 And then there's that.

00:27:01.720 Oh, gosh.

00:27:02.460 That is a whole other conversation.

00:27:06.440 How have you seen parenting change since 2009 when you first started this?

00:27:14.760 Well, I think in 2009, it really was like a lot of parents went into blogging because that was where the money was.

00:27:23.360 And since you're obviously when you have a kid, one of your issues is we have to pay for college someday. And so there's a lot of money pressures that you may not have when you're by yourself, if you have to pay your rent when you're by yourself. But like once you have other people dependent on that, your money issues get higher.

00:27:41.660 So monetizing parenthood is a terrible, frightening thing. But I think that it started in 2009 and hopefully we are pulling slightly away from it. Although I don't know, like everybody's monetizing everything right now to an extreme extent.

00:28:02.300 oh watch watch people take shares out on celebrity babies there's a thought

00:28:08.160 it's just all so wild so all right well give me your best advice what is your best advice

00:28:13.980 for someone who is about to bring a child into the world but they still want to live a creative life

00:28:20.460 my best advice is remember that the writing is really important too that it is not

00:28:29.700 diametrically opposed to you having a child, but it is having a child with a delighted parent

00:28:38.320 who is fulfilled and happy is what a child wants.

00:28:45.040 Like, they want their mom to be happy. They want their dad to be fulfilled. They don't want a

00:28:53.540 miserable parent so if you take away the things that you love so quote unquote for the child

00:29:00.800 not only will you resent your child but you'll also be miserable yourself so don't do it and

00:29:07.320 that is that is the worst thing i mean not the worst thing there's hair there's so many so many

00:29:11.240 terrible things but you know to have an unhappy parent is very stressful on a child as well and

00:29:19.380 I think it's important to remember that it is not selfish to take time for you, to take time for your

00:29:24.240 art, to take time for your job. It is not a selfish thing. So many people, adults, come to, single

00:29:31.040 adults who do not have kids, or some of them have chosen never to have kids, they come to our salons

00:29:36.560 and they say to me afterwards, oh my god, my mom was a poet. I wish that this organization had

00:29:43.740 existed for my mom because she was so unhappy that she didn't go deeper into it. And sometimes

00:29:51.240 it's poetry, sometimes it's like writing a novel or something like that, or like painting, like a

00:29:57.960 lot of creative things. The children, the grown children of adults who have stifled their own

00:30:04.400 creativity feel so bad for their parent. So if you remember that, when you're trying to deal with

00:30:10.700 Like, do I take this five minutes and just sit in the corner and cry?

00:30:16.620 Or do I go take this five minutes and write a poem about how bad I feel?

00:30:20.420 I would write the poem.

00:30:22.860 I would write the poem, too.

00:30:25.460 Tell everyone where they can find you and more information about Penn Parentis.

00:30:29.320 Sure.

00:30:29.680 So me, my writing is on mmdevoe.com, and my profit is open doors, welcome for anybody at any writing stage, at any stage of their parenting career, is at penparentis.org.

00:30:46.860 And penparentis is like pen, and then the word parent, and then I-S, like is.

00:30:53.480 So penparentis.org and all of the social media are at penparentis.

00:30:58.780 So we are on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and I don't even know what else.

00:31:05.380 Thank you so much for being here with me today.

00:31:07.260 Joe, you're the best.

00:31:28.780 Thank you.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - September 11, 2025

Can Creativity and Motherhood CoExist？

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