Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Create Stronger Friendships and Get Rid of Toxic Ones

00:00:00.000 Hey y'all! Joe here and you are listening to Under the Influence. Today we're tackling one

00:00:13.060 of my favorite topics and something I think is one of the most important things in our lives

00:00:20.000 that we don't talk nearly enough about. Yeah, I'm talking about friendship. My friends have

00:00:27.680 been the backbone of my life. They've been my inspiration. They've been my rock. And while my

00:00:33.460 husband, sweet, sweet Nick Astor, is lovely and wonderful, it has been my friends who have been

00:00:40.340 the true heroes of my life. But we don't see these relationships celebrated nearly enough

00:00:46.120 in popular culture. Today, we're talking to the unofficial friendship correspondent of The New

00:00:52.340 York Times. Anna Goldfarb's new book, Modern Friendship, investigates why we should be in

00:00:57.420 the golden age of friendship. Friendships don't just happen, at least not when you're a grown-up,

00:01:04.480 when you're a grown-ass woman. Yes, there is a sort of magic involved, but we also need strategic

00:01:09.760 approaches to our friendships. Today we're talking about all of the complexities of friendship,

00:01:14.960 the importance of being proactive in nurturing your friendships, and I learned a new term

00:01:20.380 called jacuzzi friends, which means the very close friends in your circle that you want to

00:01:25.540 be in a jacuzzi with all the time. And now I'm going to say jacuzzi friends all the time.

00:01:36.200 You know a shit ton about friendship, my friend. This has become like a dump truck's worth. 0.73

00:01:41.880 You have a dump truck's worth of friendship knowledge. How did you, before we dig into all

00:01:47.040 these topics i want to know how did you become a friendship expert you know it was totally by

00:01:53.360 accident and it started with thinking is this just me or is it my is it my friends is it

00:02:01.400 the the ocean we're swimming in like i wanted to know more information because i felt very

00:02:07.940 out of my depth with my adult friendships i've always felt there were these wild stallions

00:02:15.280 pulling me in all sorts of directions I had constant guilt of am I doing enough am I living

00:02:23.060 up to my friends expectations you know I'm a pinball I grew up in Chicago outside Chicago

00:02:29.740 I went to school in New York City I've settled in Philly okay and I just yeah I know I'm like

00:02:36.720 down the street so I've always had trouble keeping all the plates spinning in the air

00:02:43.640 of I miss my Chicago friends dearly I miss my New York City friends dearly I have no idea when

00:02:50.140 I'll see them next is this normal what like what's going on I just really was obsessed

00:02:56.040 with figuring out as much as I could about you know am I letting people down it's like am I am 0.96

00:03:05.200 I a jerk am I normal am I are my friends jerks are they normal um I just had such big emotions 0.97

00:03:12.620 around my friendships and I wanted some clarity on it. And I didn't see anything that addressed 0.99

00:03:19.300 the questions I was having. Yeah. And you know, what is striking me so much is that in a lot of

00:03:26.640 ways, these questions are questions that the women in my life ask all the time. Am I normal?

00:03:32.680 Am I doing enough? Am I good enough at this? Whereas like my husband would never think,

00:03:37.880 am i a good enough friend literally that thought would never i will tell him i will say do you

00:03:44.840 think you're a good enough friend to uh to charlie like his mom passed away and i don't think you

00:03:49.960 called him and he's like right yeah uh i just i feel like women as women we're like we're

00:03:56.100 constantly wanting to do more more more and be better better better we want to be but we want

00:04:01.240 to optimize i don't want to hurt anyone's feelings i think a lot of it was is anyone mad at me it's 0.95

00:04:07.880 yeah um you know that could be some childhood that could be some that could be some shit like 0.96

00:04:14.260 get me some shit that could be some shit i'm like is everyone mad at me did i let someone down 0.98

00:04:19.060 um i think that's a big fear i had i carried it around like a heavy backpack like one of those 0.99

00:04:24.160 kids with like a giant backpack full of science books textbook like holding them down that's what

00:04:30.980 my friendships felt like and what it culminated in when I was in my late 30s I'm 46 now and in my

00:04:39.180 late 30s my friends were having these really complicated problems um and I didn't know how

00:04:45.400 to meet the moment I didn't know how to offer support I didn't know what to say I just felt

00:04:51.260 really out of my depth and I felt like the stakes are so high that if you don't meet the moment if

00:04:57.540 you don't see the right thing your friends is gonna move on or cut you out or ghosts and i'm

00:05:04.460 like it's like the tv infomercial there has to be a better way i think is there a better way

00:05:08.760 better way it has to be a better way than feeling like i'm about you know one errant sentence from

00:05:16.880 having my friends just leave my life forever yeah yeah absolutely and so you decided to report the

00:05:23.900 heck out of this you reported it you've dug deep into your own friendships into other people's

00:05:30.080 friendships and what what came out of it was your book modern friendship how to nurture our most

00:05:36.400 valued connections you've also become the new york times friendship correspondent which is a job i

00:05:40.720 didn't realize that that they had i want to be the new york times half-assed mom correspondent

00:05:45.780 technically my my editor called me that in a tweet it's not an official position he literally was

00:05:52.260 like cc the new york times friendship correspondent i don't need an official position i mean they can

00:05:59.740 just like that's just my nickname the half-assed mom correspondence i know they have parenting

00:06:04.960 correspondence but that's not me you know what i am i wish it would come with something like a carvel

00:06:11.140 card like how lindsey lowen has a carvel lifetime card um tangent but i wish i could have some sort

00:06:19.500 of, you know, a Carvel association with it. Yeah, that'd be nice. That'd be nice. Absolutely.

00:06:24.660 It'd be nice. So you discovered a lot of things. I mean, you discovered that it's never been

00:06:29.600 easier for friendships to drift, for people to ghost, and that we actually really do need this

00:06:38.220 new approach to keep our friendships strong. What did you discover? I learned that modern

00:06:44.820 friendships are pretty much like shopping at a supermarket when you're starving and when you shop

00:06:51.160 when you go food shopping and you're starving you pick anything that looks good and just toss it in

00:06:56.420 the cart like hot bar items you know ice cream like seasonal ice creams uh anything that looks

00:07:03.840 good and you check out and you think how am I going to make a nutritious meal out of all of

00:07:08.460 these ingredients that I just, you know, let my cravings decide. And that's how our social lives

00:07:15.980 are like. If you go into the world to social media and you're lonely and you're feeling down

00:07:23.720 and you see all these connections that you've amassed over your lifetime, you're going to

00:07:29.860 reach out to people, leaving out the best people for you, maybe the people that were really a good

00:07:34.240 time but aren't don't really share the values that you share and you're going to struggle it's

00:07:39.740 going to be a struggle to to have a healthy nourishing social system if you just let your

00:07:45.120 cravings dictate who to contact now compare that when you're full and you're loved and i'm mixing

00:07:51.360 the metaphor here but you're full and you're loved and you go food shopping and you have a list

00:07:55.360 and you say this is what belongs on the list it's a lot easier to make your way through a supermarket

00:08:01.900 and to come away with food that's going to nurture you and just feel sustaining.

00:08:11.580 And our social lives are the exact same thing.

00:08:14.740 We need to have a shopping list of who belongs on my attention radar.

00:08:20.840 Who should I be focusing on?

00:08:23.220 And most of us have no strategy for this.

00:08:25.760 We have strategy for our jobs, strategy for our health.

00:08:29.380 but if i'm like what's your friendship strategy i mean it's that's not even a question you'd ask

00:08:35.120 someone it's just it's a little strange but that's what i found that we need to to to to

00:08:42.620 make our way through a modern hyperfluid society where people move around all the time

00:08:47.700 and you know everything's in flux people change interests change what's your strategy um so that's

00:08:57.020 what i found i found that we need to create a strategy i really love this uh i do and i think

00:09:03.400 that's what we'll call this episode okay what's your friendship strategy yes you're right we have

00:09:08.500 a strategy for everything else in life i like i have a strategy for how much protein i'm gonna

00:09:12.480 eat every day because i'm a 44 year old woman and eating protein is my part-time job these days but

00:09:18.060 we never talk about a friendship strategy of how am i going to keep my friendship strong how am i

00:09:24.120 going to maintain them? How am I going to make new friends? And then, and then, you know, the hard

00:09:28.360 one, how am I going to get rid of friendships that really aren't working for anyone anymore?

00:09:33.820 Yeah. I, I think people need guidance because we don't have a lot of role models. Like we don't,

00:09:41.580 we don't have cultural role models even for how to navigate our friendships today. I mean,

00:09:47.400 I don't know about you. We can't just watch beaches like 90 times?

00:09:50.360 Um, you know, my grandmother was married at 18 and she lived in the same house for 53 years.

00:09:58.040 And just a few generations later, I was married at 39. I've lived in three different cities.

00:10:04.220 Like the challenges I face keeping my social circle intact are very, very different than just a few generations ago.

00:10:13.240 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We move. We're also working more than ever. Now we're all working 19 jobs and working more than ever. And I really do think that the places that we have to congregate and gather are less and less and less.

00:10:34.540 even my husband my husband's parents uh he grew up in milwaukee and they belonged to a bunch of

00:10:40.900 different clubs they were they were the club people and that's where they saw their friends

00:10:46.620 okay because they knew everyone was gonna be at the golf club or the swim club and like that was

00:10:52.160 that was this hallmark of of like suburban like middle-class america and i don't like spaces like

00:11:02.320 that don't exist as much anymore. I mean, I don't think our generation is much less likely to join

00:11:09.420 things like that, at least in my world. Yeah, my world too. I'm intermarried. My husband's Catholic

00:11:19.760 and I'm Jewish. And even that's been interesting because there aren't many places, you know,

00:11:25.980 some some people join religious organizations and use that to supplement and you know we don't when

00:11:33.400 you don't have an institution helping plan social occasions the burden has shifted shifts onto your

00:11:43.880 individual shoulders we individually have to make a case for why a friendship should remain active

00:11:50.660 And one of the most interesting, useful things I learned in writing and researching modern friendship is that every friendship needs an about.

00:12:01.320 And the about needs to be clear and compelling to both people.

00:12:07.480 Wait, I want to hear so much more about this.

00:12:11.240 Let's take a quick break.

00:12:12.100 And when we get back, I want you to tell me what does it mean for every friendship to have an about?

00:12:16.800 Yeah.

00:12:20.660 hungry now now what about now whenever it hits you wherever you are grab an oh henry bar to

00:12:34.520 satisfy your hunger with its delicious combination of big crunchy salty peanuts covered in creamy

00:12:40.940 caramel and chewy fudge with a chocolatey coating swing by a gas station and get an oh henry today

00:12:47.660 Oh, Hungry, oh, Henry.

00:12:54.220 We are back.

00:12:56.000 This is fascinating to me.

00:12:57.500 What does it mean for every friendship to have an about?

00:13:00.500 Every friendship needs to be about something interesting, important, outside of the affection for the other person.

00:13:11.700 We have, you know, our phones are full of friends that we love and care about.

00:13:17.660 but we don't call them. Why? It's because the about is probably outdated or unclear or absent.

00:13:27.400 Active friendships need an about. And here's what science tells us.

00:13:32.240 Science tells us we make friends for five reasons. The first is mating. It's to introduce us to

00:13:37.760 people we could potentially date, marry, so on. Second is career. We hope our friends can help

00:13:46.540 us with our work. Third is emotional support. Fourth is hobbies and passions. And fifth is

00:13:54.100 sociability, like just being part of a group, kind of much like your parents joining all these clubs

00:13:59.180 in the suburbs. So those are the kinds of, those are the reasons why we keep friends around,

00:14:04.280 why we make friends, why we seek out friends. But as we get older and you're married, well,

00:14:10.440 mating's off the table. You're not looking to friends to introduce you to people. So then what

00:14:14.980 you have left you have work emotional support hobbies and passions and sociability so are you

00:14:22.760 in the same field maybe not so careers out the window so you can see how that it's the windows

00:14:30.340 of opportunity are narrowing as we get older because we want friends for specific reasons

00:14:35.900 and they change they can change at any time if you're about is a hobby and passion say it's

00:14:43.720 running and then you get injured and you can't run as much it's like well we have to renegotiate

00:14:48.220 our friendship what's our friendship about what are we going to keep seeking one another out for

00:14:54.140 and I this has been very liberating for me to understand that friendships need an about

00:15:00.760 because it's not mysterious I always felt like it's not it's really not it's like oh why well

00:15:08.320 we've just met each other since we were 15. Like, we'll just go on forever. Why isn't my friend

00:15:13.740 seeking me out? Why is my friend not replying to my text messages? And when you go through that

00:15:18.160 rubric, you're like, well, what am I helping my friend with? Do we share the hobbies and passions

00:15:23.580 right now? Maybe you're, you were into ska music in high school, and that's what you talked about,

00:15:29.300 ska music. Can't stop. But now that you're in your 30s, ska isn't as compelling. So this is like

00:15:36.880 diagnosing friendship this is helping you understand what is your friendship about

00:15:41.580 is it clear and compelling yeah totally i'm thinking a couple of things right now one i

00:15:48.600 have some friendships in my life that do seem to have that magic factor right that it's like oh

00:15:56.120 okay we became friends when we're 18 and we have nothing in common right now but we're still like

00:16:02.440 this is it you're still my ride or ride or die um and i don't know why and for those people i'm

00:16:08.360 like maybe my about is that you've been a witness to my whole life right and and you make me feel

00:16:16.740 the same way that i felt when i was 18 when we hang out most of those friends have dropped off

00:16:23.480 but there's still some of those around but then of course you've got the abouts of like

00:16:27.840 oh you're my work friend and when we don't work at these jobs anymore or even in these same

00:16:32.500 industries anymore do we actually have anything in common maybe not probably not you know what

00:16:41.060 i learned is that we can negotiate a friendship and we don't have very many models for this of

00:16:46.620 hey i want to see more what can i help you with what's important to you today i've done that

00:16:52.580 I've had friends move away and then 20 years later came back to Philly and I'm like what's

00:16:59.060 new with it what are you working on like what's your deal and then I found out we have so much

00:17:02.760 in common we she's also a writer I'm like oh I'm a writer we know all these people in common and

00:17:08.040 now we get together every week to write together because our about is writing which is very

00:17:12.660 compelling to me and to her so once you learn it's just like um I used to think of friends as

00:17:19.500 music like you put on a cd that's how old i am like you put on a cd one friend is the strokes

00:17:25.600 one friend's like arcade fire but when i started learning about the mechanics of friendship it

00:17:32.220 feels like writing the music i can i can feel empowered i can lay into one thing i know what

00:17:39.640 what levers to push to get the beautiful music i'm looking for i can take a friend's bid i can

00:17:46.320 look for connection. I could say, oh, I know what our friendship's about. I know that this is

00:17:50.700 compelling to the other friend, and let's move forward. Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is

00:17:58.860 more important than ever now, too, because we're truly dealing with an epidemic of loneliness,

00:18:05.300 which you've written a lot about. Talk to me a little bit about what you've seen in the modern

00:18:10.480 world when it comes to loneliness i mean i know just i mean from totally unscientific research

00:18:18.200 that i talk to people who feel lonelier than ever these days i what i think is going on is loneliness

00:18:27.280 is does it even matter that i'm here does anyone even care if i'm here or not and when you help

00:18:34.120 people with things that are important to them they're more likely to keep you around and that

00:18:41.380 is what prevents loneliness when you feel like you're helping when you're a part of something

00:18:45.760 bigger than you that's the antidote to loneliness and i think part of the problem is main character

00:18:52.420 syndrome where we all feel like wait wait what is main character syndrome you know i think we

00:18:59.080 watch these hero movies star wars everybody wants to be luke skywalker nobody wants to be the helper

00:19:06.100 nobody wants to be chewbacca just growling in the corner but that's what friendship is

00:19:11.880 friendship is i am here to help people i admire and cherish live their best life and meet their

00:19:19.680 goals um i think loneliness happens when you look around and you're like well where's my chewbacca

00:19:25.620 why where are the people why aren't they checking in on me well no one's called me and then you

00:19:30.760 go into a spiral you can really talk yourself into a spiral very quickly if you ask those

00:19:37.840 kinds of questions instead I encourage people to ask what can I do to help the people that I care

00:19:44.160 about you know that opens different possibilities and that's more proactive that's how can I help

00:19:52.100 I'm here to help. I'm here to help. That's my attitude. That's how I make new friends is I

00:20:00.360 think you're really cool. What can I do to help? I want to be a part of it. And I don't think

00:20:06.200 there's enough of that in our society. And I think that's why everybody's so miserable.

00:20:11.540 That is a bold statement. But this is, well, this, this right here, this is why, this is why you're

00:20:16.780 all so miserable but it's true like i i mean i mean i do joke that i don't want to be i mean

00:20:26.900 i don't really want to be luke i would be a han solo in a heartbeat um yeah i want to be a han

00:20:32.220 solo i would i want to think of other properties still there's nothing it's actually nothing no

00:20:37.880 that's that's the only one everyone wants to be indiana jones and no one wants to be

00:20:41.640 everyone's been harry potter nobody wants to be ron weasley and that's the gig of a friend is

00:20:48.980 you got to be the ron weasley you got to be but there's a you got to drop some of your main

00:20:53.940 character energy yes that's what i'm that's what i'm getting at that's and i think that's

00:20:59.660 that's the gist of friendship is i'm here to help my friends achieve their goals and dreams and

00:21:05.480 then they want to help me that's a byproduct it's a helpful byproduct is that they love me

00:21:12.180 and they love you know our friendship and that's my goal that's what I wanted to

00:21:18.260 that's what I wanted to explore with this book is how can I close the gap between the kind of friend

00:21:24.380 I want my friends to experience with me and the kind of friend I actually am to them

00:21:30.200 yeah i wanted to be this beautiful i wanted to be this like oh my god anna's the best friend ever

00:21:36.520 i'm like well how do i do that and the answer is you pick a few people science says three to five

00:21:42.460 people and be a wonderful teammate to them so yeah what is this science what is the science

00:21:50.560 that says it's going to be like three to five well i there's a study for um maximum what happiness

00:21:59.060 and well-being and midlife women and one of the findings was three to five best friends and

00:22:06.760 what people think will make them happier is having a collection of friends like a rolodex of friends

00:22:13.260 but what actually makes us feel happier is to be considered someone's best friend

00:22:18.080 and that's because it's a measure of our integrity our inner beauty our good character

00:22:24.080 and so when we find people that we think are awesome and they point at us and say that's my

00:22:29.380 best friend that that is what feels amazing and that's that's the feeling I want all of my readers

00:22:35.560 to have is you know feeling chosen and it's different than being the one choosing and

00:22:42.060 adding to a collection of friends it doesn't feel as good as you think it would

00:22:46.260 yeah yeah i i mean that that does make so so much sense to me it really really does i mean it just

00:22:55.500 hits you in your book you talk about creating a 14 day friendship cleanse i want to dig into that

00:23:07.260 after a quick break. We are back. We are back. Now, take me down the primrose path of a 14-day

00:23:21.340 friendship cleanse. What is this? You know, I wanted to put something together that people

00:23:30.300 can apply very easily all of my tips are very low lift because I'm like kind of a lazy cat mom I'm

00:23:39.640 not going to suggest people do things that I wouldn't personally do I really wanted to make

00:23:44.080 it digestible but I spend the whole book explaining the science behind these tips so that when I give

00:23:50.160 you the collection of tips you're like oh yeah I totally get it I get why Anna is suggesting all

00:23:54.620 these things and the 14-day friendship cleanse is really about coming up with that shopping list

00:24:01.500 of who am I focusing on and how am I going to practice my friendship with them so the first

00:24:07.660 one of the main tenets is identify your jacuzzi friends those are the three to five you know

00:24:14.740 besties that you cherish and you commit to being the best most outstanding friend to that elite

00:24:23.640 tier of people. And I explained what that means of, you know, diligence is a big part of it,

00:24:30.980 like taking note of their important events, of their children's events, of their husband's

00:24:36.280 events, making a note in your calendar when they have important, you know, opportunities come up

00:24:43.240 or, you know, job interviews, medical appointments, that kind of thing. And it goes so far,

00:24:49.120 Like all these little things go so far in making your friend feel secure and safe in your friendship and seen in your friendship.

00:24:58.340 And those are things we can do for our friends.

00:25:00.380 And it costs nothing.

00:25:01.920 Just paying attention costs nothing.

00:25:04.220 So the Friendship Cleanse is really about here's what you should be paying attention to.

00:25:08.700 And so did you did you do this in your own life?

00:25:13.060 Yeah.

00:25:13.460 I mean, yeah.

00:25:14.060 actually when um when i started reporting on friendship i was really almost estranged from

00:25:23.180 one of my sisters we could barely get through a meal without coming away with steam flowing out

00:25:29.120 of our ears like we we really were having a hard time connecting and everything i learned about

00:25:34.440 friendship in my reporting i applied to to our relationship and one of the most impactful lessons

00:25:41.380 was from Shasta Nelson. She's written, she's an OG friendship expert. She's amazing.

00:25:47.720 And she, one of her tenets is that friendships require three things, vulnerability, consistency,

00:25:54.920 and positivity. So I started applying that with my sister and consistency was I came over every

00:26:02.060 week to help her watch her young children. Positivity, I started bringing her little gifts

00:26:08.320 and like sending her, excuse me, like positive text messages and funny gifts and vulnerability

00:26:15.540 came once the temperature cooled down. Then I started telling her like what was going on with

00:26:21.700 my life. And just practicing those three things completely transformed our relationship.

00:26:27.780 She calls me every morning now. I still go over to her house every week. And I just made a

00:26:33.240 commitment of I want to practice friendship. I mean, these ideas are so transformative. And what

00:26:39.880 I did with Modern Friendship was I wanted to build on Shasta's research of those three tenets. And

00:26:47.100 I asked different questions of like, well, how do I know if I'm picking a good friend?

00:26:51.120 How do I know if I'm picking good people to practice this with? And what I developed was

00:26:56.600 my own paradigm called wholehearted friendship and that's based on time um jeffrey hall a professor

00:27:05.700 at kansas university found that it takes 200 hours to go from stranger to close friend

00:27:12.220 so i'm like well that is highly specific yes and i loved it i was like well

00:27:18.080 what where are you gonna find 200 hours and of course in school those hours are easy to rack

00:27:24.360 up or work but when you're that's why this makes so much sense that's when you're a free-range adult

00:27:30.340 like that takes years that takes a really long time so long well and of course that that that's

00:27:37.100 why some of our closest friendships are from college because we had nothing to do we had

00:27:42.880 nothing to do but sit in our dorm rooms and watch news radio well before joe rogan became a psycho

00:27:48.140 yes and so listen it takes a lot of time to develop friendships and that's how I

00:27:56.440 I sort of retrofitted well how does friendship fit into this and I learned that friendships

00:28:02.500 require three things like diners drive-ins and dives triple d um desire which is what we talked

00:28:09.520 about every friendship needs and about I learned diligence and that's who we prioritize your time

00:28:15.400 with. And that's what the friendship cleanse can help with is practicing diligence. And the last

00:28:21.440 one is delight. Like you got to make sure that this friendship's a good fit for you. Just like

00:28:26.940 with cars, I don't want a Mack truck to pick up a Greek salad at Whole Foods. Like I want a little

00:28:33.680 Jetta. I want a little peppy Jetta because I live in a city. That car works for me. A peppy Jetta

00:28:39.680 will not work for everyone in existence, but it works for me and my needs. And that's how our

00:28:44.960 friendships are like your best friend isn't necessarily going to be my best friend but it's

00:28:50.120 about finding the right best friend for you and your values and you know your meets you where

00:28:56.420 you're at that also goes back to the this idea that I don't think all of our friends will be

00:29:03.760 friends with each other like I think I'm very picky about bringing my friends together I had

00:29:10.260 Elise Hu on the show the other day, and she said that on her tombstone, she wants it to say

00:29:14.520 all her friends became friends. And I love that in theory. But I also have friends that are so

00:29:20.420 different from each other that when I'm coordinating a dinner party or like a group

00:29:25.120 vacation, I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no. You do not want to put those two people in the same space

00:29:30.100 because that'll suck for me. That's going to be a lot of burden for me. Like friends, like not

00:29:35.120 everyone is going to be friends with each other and I think that's important to just realize but

00:29:41.100 I think there's a lot about friendship that requires just more mindfulness and more examination

00:29:45.620 and just thinking about it again because it is so complex and so important yeah and it's very much

00:29:52.600 a friendship as of what's in it for your friend like I have a bunch a lot of my friends two of

00:29:58.900 my best friends only met at my book release party joe like they they'd heard about each other for

00:30:05.140 years and years and years and it took my book release party for them to actually be in the

00:30:09.640 same room and that was a you know one of those moments of like um this is like when scooby-doo

00:30:15.740 met the flintstones or something like yes across the world episode exactly um but that's because

00:30:23.760 my friendships with both people are about different things so I understand the apprehension

00:30:29.800 of well my friendship with this one friend is writing and my friendship with the other is more

00:30:33.640 about emotional support and like being part of her family it's just different so it helped me

00:30:40.140 take some of the pressure I guess this is a long way of saying it it helped me take some of the

00:30:43.760 pressure off of my my best friends knowing each other because our friendships are about different

00:30:48.180 thing um so that would just it's just something to consider it's absolutely something to consider

00:30:55.420 what is the i mean as the new york times friendship correspondent uh and i feel bad

00:31:00.200 like i want to get you a lifetime card for carvel ice cream cakes i would maybe i will maybe

00:31:05.760 maybe that's the kind of influence i can have in this world um carvel is anyone is anyone from

00:31:12.460 carvel listening to us right now what when you tell people that you're the new york times

00:31:18.440 friendship correspondent when you tell people you've written about a book about friendship

00:31:21.240 what is the one thing people want to know like what what do people ask you like when i mean when

00:31:24.960 i tell people i'm a writer they're immediately like i i want to write a book to tell me how to

00:31:30.220 write a book and which that's why i tell people i'm an accountant sometimes like what do people

00:31:34.860 want to know from you the the question i'm asked almost every interview is how do you get out of

00:31:41.440 a friendship oh which is okay i didn't ask that yet bring it on girl you know we have this

00:31:47.780 unlimited flexibility on who we can befriend now we can befriend guys like not even that long ago

00:31:55.300 your mom probably did not have a best guy friend growing up uh she did but i think she might have

00:32:03.440 been like boning him i don't know my mom certainly didn't my mom was married at 21

00:32:09.660 and never had so was mine a street guy was her best friend she had when i was growing up i remember

00:32:18.160 she had like a dude who was like one of her best friends but like i actually think he was just like

00:32:21.500 in love with her i have to say oh it's very the whole thing is the whole thing is very she loved

00:32:26.180 attention the whole thing is very when harry met sally right can men and women be friends

00:32:29.740 yes and well even that is historically new like that is your let's go back further your grandmother

00:32:39.300 probably did not have a best guy friend no no she did not but now you know culture is changing so

00:32:47.360 fast that that's that's definitely something that's new historically new and we're getting

00:32:53.460 married later in life so we're spending our 20s with our guy friend and then it becomes well how

00:33:00.100 are we going to practice our friendship when we're in romantic relationships and if our new partner

00:33:05.680 is threatened by our friendship like how do we navigate that um that is historically new that is

00:33:13.160 culturally new there is nothing in the bible or i don't even know about the bible but

00:33:18.360 it is um culturally a new a new thing that we are experiencing we can we can befriend anyone

00:33:24.660 across time across place um but we have different challenges is that it's easier than ever to

00:33:31.500 shed friends. You know, you can, you shed friends like you shed identities. You can be a vegan

00:33:37.700 crust punk, fast forward a year. You're like, well, actually I'm into marathons and fostering

00:33:44.560 dogs, whatever. And then you can get a whole new set of friends around your whole new set of

00:33:48.840 interests. So that's part of the challenge. That is part of the challenge of experiencing modern

00:33:56.320 friendships is that they're so easy to shed so I but there's also this um trouble that I sense of

00:34:04.520 well how do I shed a friendship like how do I back off back away from a friendship and I don't think

00:34:11.100 there's a simple answer like a simple magic phrase like a romantic breakup of it's not you it's me

00:34:16.800 we want different things like you sit down you have a conversation but most people don't want

00:34:22.460 to have a conversation when they don't want to continue a friendship. I think I just want to

00:34:28.520 telepathically be like, stop calling me. I'm good. They do. They do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're good

00:34:33.940 here. No one wants to have a breakup conversation for friends. Yes. And that's new. I feel like

00:34:41.080 that is a byproduct of us shedding friends so often is we don't want to spend time on a friendship

00:34:47.480 that's draining that's overly negative maybe your friend has bad habits you're like I'm just I'm out

00:34:53.960 I don't want to deal with this but there isn't a simple phrase that everyone can use that you

00:35:00.120 understand the best advice I have is to just politely decline invitations you know as much

00:35:08.360 as you can and be like thank you for thinking of me but this isn't my thing I'm not interested

00:35:12.840 I'm not interested. And really, it's very delicate. And I think it creates a lot of anxiety

00:35:18.680 for people of how do I back away from a friendship? Yeah, I don't, you know, I mean,

00:35:24.420 I've thought about this a lot because I do have some friends that I'm like, I'm just in a different

00:35:28.580 season of life now. And I have tried to have a gentle version of that conversation with some

00:35:36.800 people to be like, you know, I, I've, I just had three kids. My work is so intense. I'm focusing

00:35:44.780 on being a mom and you're trying to be a halfway decent wife. And that's just where I'm at right 0.95

00:35:51.420 now. I know I'm not going to have as much time for us because I do think that that level of

00:35:55.340 something, giving people something, uh, really, really can, can go a long way because then people

00:36:01.460 are like, Oh my gosh, I've just been so confused about why we don't speak.

00:36:04.740 what's been helpful for me is to do the exercises in the book and identify who my jacuzzi friends

00:36:12.260 are and make sure that i'm good committed in a groove with them and then everything else is

00:36:19.460 just a bonus like i i i know the proper container to put my other friends in um and i have to be

00:36:28.140 okay with my jacuzzi friends like those are the ones that i will have carve out time for and these

00:36:34.160 our friends i've had for years and years and years so i know that they're compatible with me i know

00:36:40.540 that we have the same values and i and i've told them like i want to be in your life for a very

00:36:44.820 long time i love you i'm here for you um so that makes it easier for the friendships that aren't as

00:36:50.640 crucial to me it's just it's just part of the gig you know right it's part of the gig

00:36:57.540 it's part of the gig part of the gig the gig jacuzzi friends i love it i love the idea of

00:37:05.460 jacuzzi friends but now i kind of want to get in a hot tub i i it really is about telling your

00:37:12.120 friends you are my jacuzzi friend here's what that you are my let's make mugs that say that

00:37:17.120 you are my jacuzzi friend you are my jacuzzi friend and i mean i'm i committed to being your

00:37:22.600 friend for a long time. I'm not going anywhere. And that's one of the best gifts we can give our

00:37:28.360 friendship, our friends, is certainty and to let them know I love you. You know, I have friends

00:37:34.340 that can't be as close to me as we were when we were younger. And I think it's so healing to

00:37:40.600 address it and to say, listen, I know friendship, our friendship can't be a priority to you right

00:37:45.620 now. You have a young kid, you know, all these other things going on. I love you. My door is

00:37:50.580 always open I will always be here for you and I get it and just the power of reducing uncertainty

00:37:59.140 of I know you're you're this isn't a priority for you I still love you you know I'm not going

00:38:05.080 anywhere it's just so healing for people to hear that yeah yeah it really is it really is

00:38:11.700 I loved this talk um all right tell us tell everyone where they can find you and where they

00:38:16.860 can find your book? Yes, you can find Modern Friendship anywhere books are sold. You will

00:38:23.000 have better friendships within two weeks, I promise you. And I know that sounds salesman-y.

00:38:27.840 That sounds so salesman-y. It sounds so salesman-y, but it's also

00:38:31.360 legit. And I have applied all of these lessons to my own life. And it's really

00:38:36.500 completely, you know, I've like, it's like a rehab. I've totally rehabbed my friendships.

00:38:42.360 And I've never had better friendships. And I'm 46. So your best friendships are ahead of you.

00:38:46.860 It's not too late. I can help. And you can find me at Anna Goldfarb on Instagram. And I have

00:38:54.940 Friendship Explained, my sub-stack newsletter. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for

00:38:59.640 coming on today. Thank you for having me, Jo. I love talking to you. I'm obsessed with friendship

00:39:04.760 and so better friendships for all. For all. And that's all we have for today. Thanks for joining

00:39:11.380 us friends. I adore you. You're the best. Don't forget to sign up for Over the Influence,

00:39:17.100 the newsletter. It's an absolute delight. And to order your Sicilian inheritances for friends for

00:39:23.660 the holidays makes a great gift. What you're going to want to do is get a copy of the Sicilian

00:39:28.040 inheritance and maybe a nice bottle of wine from Mount Etna. The perfect holiday present, people.

00:39:34.400 Perfection.

00:39:41.380 Transcription by CastingWords

00:40:11.380 You

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - November 14, 2024

Create Stronger Friendships and Get Rid of Toxic Ones

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