00:01:10.540She's a professor of organizational behavior at the University of North Carolina and the
00:01:15.240author of the book, Likeable Badass, How Women Get the Success They Deserve.
00:01:21.740Over decades of research, Allison encountered recurring questions from the women that she was talking to.
00:01:27.740What they really wanted to know was how do women thread the needle of kindness and competence in the workplace and at home?
00:01:37.440How can women earn credit for their accomplishments, negotiate better, and navigate complex office politics without losing the goodwill of their peers?
00:01:46.540It is very easy these days to feel completely powerless at work and at home.
00:01:54.500But there are so many simple strategies that we can use to boost our status with both co-workers, potential employers, audiences, and even with our own kids.
00:02:04.700talk to me i i need you to explain in your own words what is a likable badass because i think
00:02:18.440it's me actually when i saw the title of the book i'm like i think i'm a likable badass but maybe
00:02:23.540i'm wrong i'm sure you are it is you it is it is all of us um so yes that's why i titled it that
00:02:30.700because I wanted people to see themselves in that title
00:02:39.940It is my reference to how status is formed.
00:02:45.340And this is fundamentally what my book is about
00:02:48.300is status is how much other people respect and value us.
00:02:51.940And that's important to us because it feels good.
00:02:55.200It helps us get things that matter to us in life.
00:02:57.460But when people decide if they respect us, they don't make those decisions randomly. They base it on two things. And we know this from my field, organizational psychology. They base it on a judgment of, do we care about people other than ourselves? Because we don't want to risk. We don't respect people who are just out to benefit themselves and hurt others.
00:03:16.720and that's I use on the cover I use the term likable but it really captures are you other
00:03:21.660oriented do you do you do good for other people do you are you caring and then we respect people
00:03:27.500who are good at what they do that we can rely on we can trust if we give them a task it's going to
00:03:32.560be executed well and that's you know how capable and assertive someone is and on the cover I call
00:03:37.920it badass but those two things that we want that we see ourselves in that's not an accident it's
00:03:43.700because when we are that way, when people see us that way, a good thing happens to us. And that
00:03:49.400thing is people respect us and that matters so much to our quality of life. It does. It really
00:03:56.080does. And what exactly is the difference between power and status? And which one would you say is
00:04:03.720more important? So they are related, but they're different. So let's start with power. Power is
00:04:10.180controlling resources that people value. So when you have the money, the budget, the authority
00:04:16.240to hire and fire, I always say when you have a car keys and your teenager wants to drive,
00:04:21.220that's a resource. So you control something that somebody else values. It's a source of influence
00:04:25.800because if you have something they want, people are more likely to do what you say.
00:04:30.020It's also what we call a fundamental human need. It's something all human beings want and seek.
00:04:35.820People want to feel a sense of control, or stated another way, they don't want to feel
00:04:40.600like they don't control anything, that everything's out of their hands, and they're dependent
00:06:29.500Because you get better results that way. If we build our respect first with our audience, they're much more amenable to allowing us to be a person who gets to be in charge, gets to control things.
00:06:40.820But what are some ways that we can build respect? And I think we can have lots of different kinds of audiences, right?
00:06:47.140Like there's there's the influencers who have an actual audience. There's parents whose audience is pretty much their kids. There's people in the workplace whose audience is often often their co-workers. So how do how do we gain this respect?
00:07:05.140so it's both different and exactly the same okay what i mean by this in any audience if you can
00:07:11.940convince that audience that you care about them and you know what you're doing they will respect
00:07:18.140you but how what does that mean looks very different so i am a you know i'm a professor
00:07:23.680i'm a speaker i'm an author and i have three kids so let me just compare my work life to my parent
00:07:28.480life in terms of what status looks like yes please please please please do okay i'm constantly
00:08:05.320So when they get that, you give you that pushback, they're pushing back on one of two dimensions.
00:08:09.940You either don't know what you're talking about or they don't think you have their best interests at heart.
00:08:13.580And so when you convince them of those two things, they respect you.
00:08:16.840The same is true at work, but what, you know, what doesn't work at home might work very well for being considered caring or capable at work.
00:08:24.100when I convince people, whether it's my clients, my colleagues, my boss, that I care about things
00:08:30.780other than myself. I want to do a good job for the organization. I want to make someone else
00:08:35.320look good. I want to solve a client's problem. When they believe that about me, and they also
00:08:42.200believe they can depend on me, they rely on me, I know what I'm doing, their respect will also come.
00:08:48.340But how it shows up could be very different based on the audience. And I think teenager to colleague
00:08:53.480is probably the most extreme example of that that we confront on a daily basis.
00:08:58.440It really is. I'm not looking forward to the teenage years. I mean, part of me is very excited
00:09:03.660to be out of diapers, but then, yeah, it's very nerve-wracking. The future seems very nerve-wracking
00:09:10.840to me sometimes. Well, okay, how old are your kids? Oh, they're little. They're still little.
00:09:15.680So I've got a seven, a five, and a two. Okay. So I'm 15, 13, and nine. So just a little bit
00:09:22.580fast forward i will tell you everyone has their favorite stage i i will find that i enjoy them
00:09:28.040more year after year as they get kind of more able to like engage in the world the way um adults do
00:09:34.380and i have only you know one who's really in the high school at this point and he's still a very
00:09:39.680very nice teenager so i have hope that you know being a teenager doesn't have to mean doesn't have
00:09:44.280to be terrible doesn't know okay okay no i do think that a lot of pop culture just completely
00:09:51.580inundates us with content that says it's going to be awful. Teenagers are terrible. And to be
00:09:57.260honest, I have a lot of friends with wonderful teenagers, so I don't know why I'm even dreading
00:10:01.600it. I think I've been programmed that way. Yeah, but look, I do think low expectations,
00:10:06.160we see this in the research, low expectations are the key to happiness. Like the happiest
00:10:09.160negotiators are the ones who go in not expecting very much and they don't get a very good deal,
00:10:12.760but they exceed their expectations. So there is something to be said for,
00:10:16.520you know, exceeding our expectations. And so maybe that's true with teenagers as well.
00:10:20.780I need you to unpack that for a hot second. So are low expectations actually the key to happiness?
00:10:28.600I don't, I can't speak to it scientifically across all low expectations. What I will tell
00:10:33.220you is in a domain where I do know a lot about the science negotiation, that when people go in
00:10:38.620to a negotiation with low expectations of what their outcome will be, they are very likely to
00:10:44.720exceed those expectations. And it's not the low expectations that are the key to happiness.
00:10:48.880it's doing better than you thought you were going to. So then you have that positive experience of
00:10:53.720this turned out better than I thought. And that does make people happy. In contrast to people
00:10:59.600who go in with very high expectations, they do worse than their high expectations. So they fall
00:11:05.520short. And so all they can see is the gap and they are less happy, even though people who aim
00:11:12.760for more and don't meet their expectation are still actually objectively doing better than
00:11:18.640people who went in with low expectations and exceeded them. So it creates this situation where
00:11:23.260our objective performance can be better, but our happiness can feel worse. And in the work that I
00:11:29.320do, I often use that work to tie back to something else that where expectations are really important,
00:11:33.720which is imposter syndrome, where oftentimes we think that we are imposters because our output is
00:11:41.100not as good as it should be. But reality is it's simply that we have a very high aspiration
00:11:47.780of a future ideal self that we're striving toward.
00:12:11.660But certainly when we exceed our expectations,
00:12:15.380whatever they are in whatever domain there is that,
00:12:17.780oh, that turned out better than I thought, whether it's parenting a teenager or negotiating a deal.
00:12:23.420Fascinating. Fascinating. Okay, let's take a really quick break. And when we get back,
00:12:28.500I want to dig in a little bit to the idea that women are constantly painted as likable
00:12:35.400or unlikable and how that all factored into the title of your book. Let's do it.0.98
00:12:47.780Okay, we're back. I want to talk a little bit about likable. I hear about likability all the
00:12:56.600time as an author, mostly. If I write a character that is a woman and does some things that people0.99
00:13:05.580might find not quote unquote likable, the audience sometimes gets very angry with that
00:13:12.160character. Whereas I do feel like men are often given a pass on likability. And I know that a
00:13:19.580lot of women are very frustrated with being accused of not being likable enough. So why0.99
00:13:25.560did you title this book, Likeable Badass? I could call it like warmly assertive, but it doesn't
00:13:32.880sound really as interesting. I could call it the interpersonal circumplex of person perception,
00:13:36.980and then no one would ever want to read it, even though that's what it's actually called.
00:13:39.620So that was just my choice of a word that resonates, that people know what it means when they see it, that is roughly capturing this dimension of other orientation. So being likable is not the only way that we signal to the world we care. We can be honest, sincere, helpful, you know, all those things.
00:13:57.980So it's much more complicated than any two words I can put on the cover of a book.
00:14:02.120But you're 100% right that a couple things are true.
00:14:05.720One, women since the dawn of time have been given comments about their likability or their
00:14:10.540warmth and that the expectations are high for women, this maternal nurturing, you know,
00:14:15.680belief that we have about women in a sexual context.
00:14:19.740So those things are all true and that the feedback that women should be more likable
00:14:24.380is often rooted in implicit sexual and bias, and that feels maddening, frustrating, unfair,
00:14:30.280et cetera. That's all true. What's also true is that being like will be warm, showing people you
00:14:40.620care about them and being other oriented is a superpower that nobody should waste. So what do
00:14:44.720I mean by that? First, when human beings pay attention to other human beings, they are much
00:14:49.800quicker to pick up on signals of warmth than they are on signals of competence. Why? Because from
00:14:54.340an evolutionary perspective, whether you're a good person or a bad person or whether you're
00:14:58.340going to help me or hurt me is the most important thing I need to know. Like, are you going to murder0.98
00:15:01.720me or are you going to help me succeed? The second most important thing I need to know is,0.83
00:15:06.160are you good at what you do? So that if you're helpful, I can actually rely on you. So one is
00:15:10.760we pay attention to cues of warmth very carefully for everybody. Two, it is a huge basis of influence.
00:15:18.600So if I go to Bob Cialdini, who's a psychologist, who has written some of the most influential work
00:15:24.220on influence okay no pun intended or really pun intended fun intended let's yeah there you go
00:15:29.060let's intend those puns we'll intend it okay so Bob Cialdini expert on influence he writes you
00:15:34.860know on the six principles of influence that are basically universally impactful liking is one of
00:15:40.520the six we do things for people we like you do this too I do this too you get a million asks of
00:15:46.440you every day a million things come your way you can't do everything if you like the person asking
00:15:51.520Are you more likely to say yes? Yes, you are. So is everybody else. You will go out of your way
00:15:56.660to help people that you see as caring and selfless and giving. And you will go out of your way,
00:16:02.040actually, to make life difficult in ways for people that you don't enjoy. So liking is a
00:16:07.680huge basis of influence. It's true for everybody. So there's a bit of a double standard. But sometimes
00:16:14.460people, I think, take it too far. And they say, men don't have to be likable. It doesn't matter
00:16:20.720for men. And I said, well, let's push that for a second. I said, I give you a choice of two men
00:16:24.580to interact with in your real life, right? And I give you a choice of two men. And one of them,
00:16:29.840they're both very, very capable people. But one of them is widely described as sincere,
00:16:34.920giving, helpful, and kind. The other one is described as cold, ruthless, quarrelsome,
00:16:40.560and difficult. Are you indifferent between those two people? Absolutely not. Given a choice,
00:16:45.880We always choose the warm, the likable.
00:16:48.380It's a huge basis of influence and attraction.
00:16:51.600So I always say just because we've been unfairly criticized for something doesn't mean that
00:17:12.260I'm not going to care if people like me.
00:17:14.120And I'd say, but you care if you like people, you're always going to do more for them and you are likable. So don't throw that advantage away. But you don't have to be the version of likable that someone else wants. You just have to find your authentic way to show people that you care. And just because people deliver that feedback poorly doesn't mean that it's not hugely to your advantage to show people how much you actively, genuinely do care about them because you do.
00:17:41.100right right of course of course i mean that this this makes so much sense and it's it's so rational
00:17:49.700to me and it's also just a great argument for being kind and being generous and also kind of
00:17:59.160throwing the term likable out with the bathwater because what is what is likable anyway right and
00:18:08.540I want to I kind of want to reclaim it as as something that says there's not there's no shame in being likable and but it's not everything.
00:18:15.640So this is I'm trying to capture on the title of a book using two words to capture a phenomenon that is deeper and and and more complex than that, which is that there are many different ways to accomplish a non-negotiable goal.
00:18:30.180The non-negotiable goal is you need to show people that matter to you in your life that you care about someone else other than yourself.
00:18:51.200But you have to show people in some way, shape, or form.
00:18:54.800Because we get to draw conclusions about this.
00:18:57.060there are people and you will conclude this is not a warm person. It's not a helpful person.
00:19:02.760It's not a likable person. And you based those judgments on something, right? Maybe you interacted
00:19:08.840with them. Maybe you heard a story about them. Well, the same is true for us as well. So I think
00:19:14.500that the word can be really loaded. And I haven't gotten, people ask me about it like you did. I
00:19:19.020haven't really gotten much negative reaction that I've seen, like people have come to me. Generally,
00:19:24.340people say, likeable, badass, like that's what I'm going for. That's what I want to be. That's
00:19:28.840how I want to be seen in the world. And I think generally that's correct. And what I help people
00:19:33.020see is there's a lot of different authentic ways to do it that you can, you do not have to be
00:19:38.360someone else's version. You have to be your own version. But when you are that version,
00:19:44.280there's a lot of benefits that come to you. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. What has the
00:19:51.860feedback been like so far for the book? You came out in September, right? It's been amazing. It's
00:20:00.280been so positive in all these ways in terms of one, the feedback from women that are taking time
00:20:08.460to write to me, to post reviews, to be on social is all, you know, where has this kind of guidance
00:20:14.520been all my life? It's hopeful, it's helpful, it's actionable. And those are things I care about
00:20:19.800very, very deeply when I work with women and when I advise women. So that's been really great. I
00:20:25.120haven't gotten too much like, you know, shade or hate mail. This is so good because sometimes like,
00:20:30.480I mean, shade and hate mail is a reality these days for any woman. Yeah. The only people I've
00:20:36.380gotten it from are men. And that won't surprise you. No, no, no. It doesn't at all. Right. And
00:20:41.720I've gotten a couple of those. And sometimes I wonder like, wow, this person who doesn't know
00:20:46.160me took a lot of time out of their day to write me an angry note. There are very many of them,
00:20:50.020but I always just think I'm just too busy to write angry notes. I just don't understand what
00:20:54.400that person's like. They must have, I don't know, they must have a lot more time on their hands
00:20:59.060than I do. Anyway, it's been very positive. It's brought me into contact with women that I don't
00:21:04.100know that get introduced to me from the book, which is a beautiful thing because one of the
00:21:08.020reasons to write a book is to make it easier to disseminate information that will, for people who
00:21:12.480will never talk to you in person or get to see you at an event or something like that. So that's
00:21:16.360been really amazing. It's brought me into contact with new organizations who are doing great work
00:21:20.700to elevate women and like inviting me in to be a part of that. So all of it's just been this
00:21:25.220awesome, super busy, fun rollercoaster ride that I just adore. And I thought I would like it,
00:21:34.280but it's hard to anticipate, as you know, like before you've done it, it's my first time doing
00:21:38.100it, right? So before you've done it, to know what it's going to feel like on that side, a little
00:21:42.200bit like having a kid. You can read a lot of books about it and people can tell you. And then
00:21:45.760when you do it yourself, they're like, oh, this is what it's like. And I'm really enjoying it.
00:21:49.900Because it's what I care about. I really care about using the thing I know, which is behavioral
00:21:55.340science, to help the audience I care about, which is women. And again, not only women, but I care a
00:22:00.960lot about them. To live their best lives and get credit for their awesomeness. Because the best1.00
00:22:06.680people I know in this world are women. They're all likable badasses and they deserve to be seen1.00
00:22:11.340for you. So I'm loving all of it. Yeah, they do. They do. I mean, I try to be careful because I
00:22:17.820also like men. There are good men. I am married to a good man. And we have like four of them who
00:22:23.160listen to this podcast. But my passion is for women and talking about how to uplift other women
00:22:30.800and support them because men have been uplifted since the beginning of men. So yes, yes, yes.
00:22:37.740For sure. And yes, I have. So hello to all four men. Happy to have you here. And yes, I have a husband. Two of my three kids are boys. I'm I'm I'm very permanent. One of the best compliments back to how the book has been. There's only one person's actively said this to me, but I remember it distinctly. I was at a book event in St. Louis and a woman who does not know me who comes to this bookstore event says what I really appreciated about this book was he wrote this book to be very pro women without at all bashing men.
00:23:03.280And I said, thank you for saying that, because that means I reflect it accurately on the pages, how I feel. And no part of my heart or brain is man bashing. And I think that I'm glad that it came across that way. It's just, this is an audience I care about. I want them to be successful. I want men to be successful too.
00:23:22.100But I just enjoy doing this without having to have an implicit comparison group that is the enemy, because it's not that way.
00:23:29.820Most men that I know very much are committed to making the world great for everybody, including women.
00:29:21.840You write a post, it can go to all kinds of people, those who are connected to you and those who aren't. And your advice, the value you're putting out there, goes to lots of people with just one little bit of effort. So that could be a tool. Starting to think about that. What are the things I'm good at that people tend to look to me to help them? And how could I do that thing in an easy, low effort way?
00:29:42.600i love that i love that because i do think that there are a lot of easy
00:29:48.600low effort things that we can be doing to one just be a good person in the world uh and then
00:29:57.480also build social capital at the same time um i also get very queasy in in ubers i can't i can't
00:30:03.840even look at my phone no i can't either if i'm in the back seat of an uber it's just drive if i
00:30:08.880but for our family car, I drive because I can't even, I don't even like bike passenger.
00:30:13.300Yeah, no, it's too much. It's probably definitely something to do with my perimenopausal body.
00:30:18.800No idea what it is, but something to do with it.
00:31:29.820You see them as flexible. You see them as interested in being cooperative. These are all signals of your likability and your warmth. So as soon as we give people choices. So that's another thing we can do. And then the third one is to get curious about people, to ask them what matters to them so that we can answer the what's in it for me question.
00:31:50.920negotiations are give and take what do i know what i want but what are you getting out of this deal
00:31:56.120you're much more likely to say yes to something when you see it as beneficial to you too basic
00:32:00.720we know this but a lot of times we can shape how what you know what people are getting out of it
00:32:06.380and how they see the value in it by simply asking them what's important to them and then
00:32:10.400thinking about their life story so so for example when i make a mutually beneficial introduction i
00:32:16.900do that by getting curious about both parties, understanding what they want out of their life,
00:32:22.740and then trying to put something in their life, in this case, another person who's going to
00:32:26.780deliver that. So that's really where what good negotiators do really well is they're able to ask
00:32:33.000for things that have benefit for other people. And so if I can, if you want a parenting story
00:32:39.280in this regard. Oh, I sure do. Bring it on. Okay. Okay. So one of the things I like to think I do,
00:32:43.560I've done very well. The list of things I've done poorly as a parent, I'm sure is extremely long and
00:32:47.540my kids will tell me what it is. But one of the things I've done really well is to help my kids
00:32:51.600think from a very young age about the science of negotiation and the art of it. So my kids come to
00:32:55.940me with a million asks, mom, can I have this? Can I have money for this video game? Can I have my
00:32:59.700iPad? Et cetera, et cetera. And I would say, well, why? Like what's in it for me? And they look at
00:33:06.340me like you're really mean. And I just said, look, no one in this world is going to love you like I
00:33:09.640do. So if you can't convince me, you're not going to convince anybody. People don't just give you
00:33:13.700stuff because you're cute. People give you stuff because they see it in their interests in some
00:33:17.080way, shape, or form to give it to you. Why is it in my interest to buy you money for this video
00:33:20.780game? It's not. Why should I give you my iPad? And then they would, I'm like, so come back to me
00:33:25.320when you have an argument that's for me. They would be mad and they'd huff away. And it's taken
00:33:29.780years and their arguments were initially terrible. But as I kept up with this, they get better and
00:33:34.900they say, hmm, what's in it for mom? So not that long ago, maybe a month or two ago, my 13-year-old
00:33:40.400and my nine-year-old, they come to me and they say, we want to buy this new video game because
00:33:43.780we want to play together. And I was like, well played, the two of you, because now you're talking
00:33:49.580my language. Because what does mom want? Mom wants siblings who like each other and play together and0.93
00:33:53.860support each other. So now I will give you money for this video game because now I'm getting
00:33:58.540something out of it. And I think they got to that by listening to all the years of like, what's mom
00:34:03.860yammering on about, okay, you guys should be nice to each other. And then they realized, oh,
00:34:09.020same ask, right? And this is the important thing. We don't have to change what we're asking for,
00:34:14.100but we have to change how we're selling it. And now it's, we want to play together is giving me
00:34:19.600something that I want. And so even kids can get good at it. So if kids can get good at it,
00:34:23.440we can all get at it of thinking about what our audience really cares about and finding a way to
00:34:28.220frame our ask in terms of that thing. They're much more likely to say yes.
00:34:31.540it's true it's true and and getting curious about the other people like genuinely being curious
00:34:39.060about their wants and their need feels so important to me to building these kinds of
00:34:46.200relationships where you can get to the point where you can actually ask someone for something
00:34:50.740right and that's where authenticity and strategy come together beautifully like it's authentic to
00:34:55.440care about what your people in your life care about to learn about them but then also then if
00:35:00.840you follow the logic, oh, well, if I know what you care about, I'm much more likely to be able to
00:35:05.740add value to the things you care about. And oh, if I can add value to the things you care about,
00:35:10.740the world runs on reciprocity, you'll add value to the things I care about. So that's how we can
00:35:15.340start with authenticity and end with an outcome that's also very strategic that benefits us. And
00:35:21.560so I want people very much to understand those two things can go hand in hand. Being strategic
00:35:26.100does not mean that you're being inauthentic