00:01:51.840Hello, hello. Thank you for having me today.
00:01:54.160Thank you for being here. I got to say, I love your story. It is so inspirational to me. And watching you go through this journey over the past few years, it's helped me get through some really hard times. So thank you.
00:02:10.620Really? Gosh, Jo. Thank you for saying that. That is my great honor. I was writing a post this
00:02:18.220morning and saying like, I mean, why would I want to write about the worst trauma of my life and
00:02:22.500then talk about it ad nauseum? And it's because if my vulnerability can help other people in
00:02:28.480their stories, it's worth it. So thank you for saying that. It means a lot. I want to ask right
00:02:33.980off the bat, what is your advice for women whose lives haven't lived up to their expectations?0.69
00:02:42.000Because I have to say, I think one of the biggest reasons that we end up unhappy is that the
00:02:48.940expectation gap can be so large because we are sold such a ridiculous fairy tale about what life
00:02:56.860should look like i think my advice is first to realize that you're not alone that it is a0.63
00:03:06.200ridiculous fairy tale i think that's a great way to put it but then i would say you still have
00:03:12.760agency to create a beautiful life like just because something has happened to you or not
00:03:18.540gone your way doesn't mean you put a period on it that's the end of story like that's not the
00:03:23.660end of the story unless you're going to choose to stay there. Right. And I think it's hard to face
00:03:31.320when life doesn't look like how you wanted it to look. It's hard to say it out loud,
00:03:36.460but it's even harder to do something about it. And I think a lot of us
00:03:42.620feel like it's easier to stay comfortable in something hard than it is to do something
00:03:50.160different. Frankly, I can say that's true in my own life. I mean, my marriage was not great for
00:03:57.220a lot of years. And I just thought, well, this is what 10 years of marriage looks like. This is what
00:04:03.46012 years of marriage looks like. This is what three kids looks like. I would say to my ex-husband,
00:04:09.620we should go to marriage counseling. He's like, we don't need to go to marriage counseling. I don't
00:04:12.600want to go to counseling. It's fine. And I would just write stories in my head of things that,
00:04:18.940frankly, were not true. And I think I'm not alone in that. I think that's pretty common. And so
00:04:24.820in my case, it took my husband coming out, us getting divorced, and me really being forced to
00:04:31.080write a different story. But it doesn't have to be that way. And I hope that by reading this book
00:04:37.100and some of the takeaways that people can get language and take action in their own stories.
00:04:44.800Yeah, it doesn't have to be that way. It doesn't have to get to the worst possible scenario.
00:04:48.940for you to make a change, right? Right. And a change doesn't necessarily mean that you're
00:04:56.060still going to have the fairy tale. Like a change might also still not be what you dreamt of for
00:05:03.360your life, but it can be better than before. It can be better than before. Now, for listeners who
00:05:11.180are not familiar with your story, can you give us a little bit of background about your life,
00:05:18.800with Matthew, and then what happened to kind of blow it all up? Sure. Yes, we kind of started in
00:05:27.780the middle, didn't we? I always start in the middle. Okay, I bury the lead. I'm a terrible
00:05:32.520journalist. Yes, that is not true. So my ex-husband Matthew and I were married in 2004.
00:05:40.720I love Matthew, by the way. I've spent some time with Matthew last year. He loves you. I love him
00:05:45.680so much yeah um we met in 2003 i was 20 i was in college he's nine years older than me um i was
00:05:52.440actually originally wanted to work in the christian music industry and matthew was a editor for a big
00:05:57.980christian music magazine oh my god this is something i didn't know about you and i kind of
00:06:01.340love it yeah and so um i was networking with him we met on aol instant messenger i was a junior in
00:06:08.280college and um we've talked every day since or for the past 20 years there's only been one day
00:06:14.580we haven't talked since I met him in 2003. And we just kind of instantly fell for each other.
00:06:21.240He invited me to the, what were then called the Dove Awards, which were like the Christian
00:06:24.700Grammy Awards. And that was our first date. And we'd been talking for a few months by then. And
00:06:28.520gosh, it's interesting. Reflecting back on this, it would have been right around now. It was April
00:06:33.540of 2003. And then we, you know, we got, he proposed in July. Like it was really, or he
00:06:42.140asked my dad's permission in july i think he proposed in september so my senior year of
00:06:46.000college we got married he was all i ever knew he was my all my adulthood was wrapped around being
00:06:51.560married was being matthew's wife um and during the pandemic he came out to me so in um
00:07:00.200he first told me that he was bi in march of 2019 and then he told me he was gay in september of
00:07:08.9402019. And we just really circled the drain. And then that period from March to September,0.57
00:07:13.440I remember saying to friends, like, I just wish he'd say he was gay. If he was gay,1.00
00:07:17.040it would be a lot easier. It would be because then I'm like, obviously, we can't be married1.00
00:07:20.020if we're gay. And then he told me he was gay. And then we still were like, are we going to get0.93
00:07:23.420divorced? Like, is that what's going to happen? Are we going to do a mixed orientation marriage?
00:07:27.060What are we going to do? And we just circled the drain for months. Finally, we decided to separate
00:09:21.880But as you can imagine, being a Christian children's author in America, coming out as gay was a lot and was very stressful and painful and people were cruel and cruel to our family.
00:09:37.060Matthew at first didn't want to come out.
00:09:39.320That was something that we had to really work through because it was really important to me that we be really honest with why we were getting divorced.
00:10:55.600And when we get back, I want to go into some of the things that you do wish that you had known that would have maybe made this a little bit easier for you.
00:11:09.480I don't think I can be your friend, Isabella said.
00:11:44.360Okay, we are back. Jessica Turner. When your world completely fell apart, is there anything that could have made this better? Or did you have to walk through fire to get to where you are now?
00:12:00.020it's one of those weird things like hindsight is always 2020 and like if if i had known sooner
00:12:08.260would i've done something different like i don't i i don't know i um i know that in my darkest
00:12:16.440moments i was crying every day and i would beg my friends to tell me that it wasn't going to
00:12:23.920always be like this and it it gets me emotional just thinking about it like I every day was just
00:12:31.320like promise it's not going to be like this forever promise it's not going to feel like
00:12:35.760this forever I just felt like I was alive and dead at the same time every day and I wish that
00:12:44.700there was something I could have grabbed on to that told me that it wasn't going to be like this
00:12:49.660forever besides my friends being like, no, it's not going to be like this forever. Right. Like,
00:12:53.840but I don't know what that is. There wasn't a book quite like this that I found. There was
00:12:59.100either like grief, grief, grief, grief, you know, or there's like self-help pick yourself up by the
00:13:05.960bootstraps. There wasn't like both at the same time. The one thing that I think I wish I would
00:13:11.580have learned earlier in my life is to not write stories about things that you don't have the facts
00:13:19.240for for me in particular that was around my body image okay so i equated a lack of intimacy in my
00:13:29.200marriage to there being something wrong with my body and of course our bodies change as we have
00:13:38.020kids and we get older and as those things happened in my marriage that also was you know the bell
00:13:49.060curve like the down the down part of the bell curve in terms of intimacy in my marriage now
00:13:54.540obviously we had three kids like Matthew and I had a lot of sex over the course of our 16 year
00:13:59.720marriage but I didn't feel desired in a way that I feel desired now in a heteronormative relationship
00:14:09.120and I told myself so many stories around my body and my worthiness for so long that when Matthew
00:14:19.480came out and it was like, okay, you've got the actual answer. All of that was wrong. It still
00:14:24.500was really hard to rewire that for myself. Right. Um, and I think that, I think the stories women
00:14:33.560tell themselves are really strong and those stories so often lead with blame for ourselves
00:14:41.020and they're also affirmed by what we're consuming on social media and in the media of how we're
00:14:47.740supposed to be how we're supposed to look how we're supposed to act um so i went i wouldn't
00:14:52.460i would marry matthew again i would have three kids again with him um i you know i'm i'm grateful
00:15:00.840that I'm where I am now. Do I wish I didn't have to live through trauma and grief? Of course we
00:15:07.760all do, but that's life. Um, and I even think about, I've been dating a man for a year and
00:15:13.100I'm like, if, if this had happened at any other point, if I had divorced Matthew any sooner,
00:15:17.060like any of those things, I wouldn't have John now, you know? So I'm not one to want to change
00:15:22.760what I've lived, but I do wish that that lesson around worthiness, desirability, like my body
00:15:30.360image like those things I wish I wasn't so messed up some of that and and having to untangle so much
00:15:37.840I've come a long way I've grown a lot and but every once in a while I'll even say to John like
00:15:43.100I'm still working on rewiring that you know it's still hard for me to believe xyz and and whatnot
00:15:48.720so I wish that there would have been a way for me to not believe those things and and it really is
00:15:55.500wrapped up in telling myself stories that I didn't have any facts to base it on. It was
00:15:59.860assumptions based on things that I was experiencing. And so this is X and this is
00:16:04.580Y, this must be Z, you know. Well, and how did your audience react to this? Because it is one
00:16:11.960thing going through something like this as a as a private person and another thing going through it
00:16:18.480as someone who has a very public facing life as an influencer. And so you must have gotten a lot
00:16:24.800comments and reaction from all sides of the spectrum, positive and negative, right?
00:16:31.900Thankfully for me, I mostly received positive comments. I received comments of support and
00:16:38.680we're with you and whatnot for the most part. The exception to that is whenever I do a post
00:16:46.300with Matthew that goes viral, and there've been a few of those, it's like the underbelly of the
00:16:52.020most vile humans in the world come out to say really awful things about him. Very little about
00:17:00.800me except that I turned him gay. That's the most common negative thing. Comments about my body1.00
00:17:08.580turning him gay, those types of which only affirm some of those things that we talked about, right?
00:17:13.440Even though, again, I know them to not be true. But my community has been nothing but amazing
00:17:19.580and supportive. I think that they lean in closely when I speak vulnerable stories. I'm very careful
00:17:29.400about the stories that I share. You know, I have two teenagers, they're friends. I try to block
00:17:34.740them on social media, but there's always some that still find me, get around, create another account.
00:17:41.520And so I'm really mindful of the stories that I share. I take a lot of time. I don't like post
00:17:48.020anything vulnerable quickly because I'm really protective of my family. I also recognize
00:17:56.900that two things can be true, right? We can celebrate Matthew's coming out and his wholeness
00:18:02.700and happiness. And it caused me trauma and grief and a multitude of awful things that I had to
00:18:14.360walk through because of that truth, because of him keeping that truth and because of him coming
00:18:19.440out. And so it used to be that I just wanted to be seen as celebrating Matthew to the point that
00:18:25.740I was withholding my own pain. And eventually I got to a place where I could share that, which is
00:18:30.840why I think I was able to write the book. It doesn't happen overnight. You have been living
00:18:35.060this journey so publicly and also raising kids. How have you balanced? How have you been able to
00:18:45.060balance what you share with them, when you share with it, when you share it, and then what you want
00:18:51.220to share publicly? And because your kids are teenagers now or close to teenagers, so they
00:18:55.500really know what's going on. They do. My kids are 16. I have a son who's a sophomore and I have a
00:19:04.28013-year-old. She's in eighth grade. And then I have a fourth grader. He's 10. And my 16-year-old
00:19:09.820is the only one who has social media. He does not follow Matthew or me by our request. We've just
00:19:17.400said to him, you know, our content is for adults. You don't need to see it. And he doesn't want to
00:19:25.520it. It's fine with him to not follow us. But I think that as they've gotten older,
00:19:33.240I in particular share less of them online. They certainly still participate on occasion,
00:19:39.880but they're not really consuming the content around dating or grief or disappointment or
00:19:47.180body image. They just really aren't seeing that. And I think as they get older, if they do see
00:19:53.540that. I really hope that they are proud of the way that I've presented myself, how I've helped
00:19:59.500other people with my stories, the vulnerability. So I don't ever put anything out that I would be
00:20:06.940embarrassed for my children to see when they're older. And I'm mindful that if they see it now
00:20:15.840that I would be able to have a conversation with them around why I chose to write about that or
00:20:20.320post that or whatever um so we're really protective around like where we live not showing where they
00:20:27.320go to school some of those things um they are they do you know participate though in sometimes
00:20:34.820content that i do for brands i pay them for it um i pay them very well for it actually yeah this is
00:20:41.560a fat this is a fascinating subject we're gonna have to have a whole other episode on this on
00:20:45.580influencers paying their kids for participating in content because i'm looking at that too i'm like
00:20:51.080my kids are on my instagram sometimes they appear on my sub stack and i think they should be paid
00:20:57.180for that oh they i mean my kids are paid so well they are paid very well for the for what they
00:21:04.220you know show up in and and participate in and they have complete agency over if they're okay
00:21:10.060with it you know my kids sign off on any photo that goes up i had a brand that wanted to do
00:21:15.260something with my 10 year old and I said do you like this product do you want to do a video with
00:21:20.660mama if you don't I'll say no to it you know like I think it is so so important they also we talked
00:21:26.720to them about investing I talked to them about like what I'm doing with their money like where
00:21:31.740we're saving it what it can look like you know Instagram will do those things just you know if
00:21:35.700you started saving at 20 years old your money would grow to you know I'll show them those types
00:21:39.780things about it all the time yes all the time you know because i was not a 20 year old saver
00:21:45.100me either me either i feel like it is the biggest gift i can give them um and it's teaching them
00:21:51.080things like they see me working really hard they see like they they're not going to grow up thinking
00:21:56.800they had a lazy mom you know um but they have complete agency now obviously when they were
00:22:03.860little. Gosh, I started blogging in 2006. No one knew what we knew now. So anyway, that's a whole
00:22:09.640nother conversation that we will do. I am I am very, very mindful of everything that I'm putting
00:22:16.960out there in it, you know, someday being consumed by my kids and my kids. They're the dedication of
00:22:22.460the book. You know, I truly want for them to see their mom as a woman who was brave and authentic
00:22:32.340and worked through hard stuff to create a beautiful life. Like, I don't know how much
00:22:38.000they'll remember, but I know when they read this and they look back, it'll be they'll have some
00:22:42.420aha moments, I think, for sure. They absolutely will. They will. We are going to take one more
00:22:47.740quick break. And when we get back, we're going to talk about dating.
00:22:52.460you matched on hinge you're vibing then her energy completely changes what do you do
00:23:00.600i'm raven smith and i wrote and read a real love story about this exact sitch listen to the free
00:23:06.780audiobook now chew on this bold question from dentine gum is it ever okay to compliment a
00:23:13.720millennial on their skinny jeans in 2026 dentine too bold okay we are back you have been seeing a
00:23:30.420wonderful man for about a year how long did it take you to you know not to use a terrible
00:23:37.260euphemism but to get back on that horse yeah um gosh I think I have been dating for I'm trying
00:23:48.100to think when I start I remember it was November and it was like a year after I think I think it
00:23:53.900was three years no that can't be right Jo let me start over gosh if I think back I think I took
00:24:01.500about a year after the divorce was finalized before I really started dating. And, you know,
00:24:08.560you have to remember, this whole process started in 2019. We announced our divorce in summer of
00:24:15.0002020, but I had already been working a lot on myself and everything. So I think it was fall
00:24:23.060of 21 when I started dating. And, you know, my therapist, who's incredible, I talk about her a
00:24:29.620lot in the book. She's not one to really push anything. And she was like, it's time. It is
00:24:34.980time for you to start dating. Like I'd been hemming and hawing about it for a long time. I was so
00:24:39.220scared. You know, I met Matthew so young. I had very little dating experience. I definitely had
00:24:46.040some missteps. I experienced some catfish, all the things, and learned what to do and what not
00:24:54.000to do. And yeah, now I've been with somebody for a year and I am so wildly in love. I say
00:25:00.820all the time, like I had no idea it could be like this. I get very weepy about it.
00:25:06.500It feels like the sweetest redemption that I didn't know that I would ever have. I actually
00:25:10.260was with him the night before the book came out and I get teary all the time and he's like
00:25:17.380so steady, not super emotive. He's very tender with me, but just as like his general personality
00:25:23.240type is just the opposite of my like very high energy, high emotions. And I started getting
00:25:30.600teary and he said, Oh, Jess, what's coming? And I said, man, I just, I can't believe that a year
00:25:37.900ago when I turned in this book, I wished for something like you. And I can't believe that
00:25:45.340as I'm releasing this book, I'm getting so emotional talking about it as I'm releasing
00:25:49.280this book that you're here and you are so much better and more loving and just more than i could
00:25:58.280imagine and i just feel so so grateful um to be here so yeah it was but i could i could give you
00:26:06.300lots of stories about catfish and awful men as well but i did i did seem to get a really great
00:26:12.640guy at the end you did you did what was the worst one i just like to hear the worst dating story
00:26:17.780Oh, gosh. Well, the worst one is actually the only other man that I've shared online. He's no longer, you can't find him now. He is blocked and deleted from everything. But there was a man that I dated for eight months and he lived in California, but he was moving to Nashville, he told me.
00:26:34.620and um he actually was living with another woman the whole time sleeping with her had been with
00:26:42.080her for almost 20 years he had told me that the relationship had ended years ago that she was
00:26:48.180still friendly and in his life and how you know how could i blame that matthew's still friendly
00:26:52.040and in my life um because of the time difference you know in his job he wasn't often at home
00:26:58.580or he would facetime me oh i'm running errands i'm on my bike you know whatever um
00:27:04.620oh, I can't FaceTime tonight. And it was because he was with this other woman.
00:27:10.700So that that is the worst that I and that I think the worst of the worst. So he was the first0.96
00:27:16.780very serious relationship I had. And I found out she found out he was moving to Nashville.
00:27:23.380She found out, emailed me. My best friend called her because I was like, I don't I don't want this
00:27:28.180person to have my phone number. He's told me she's crazy, you know. So my best friend called
00:27:33.280her, had hours of conversations, screenshot texts, like he's in bed with me and texting her. I love
00:27:38.820you like awful, awful. And I still, he was moving to Nashville and living minutes from my house.
00:27:48.320And after a short period of time, I took him back and I, I grieve that I'm embarrassed by that,
00:27:55.760But I just wanted to be loved so much.
00:27:59.760And it was my first foray into that with, you know, a heterosexual partner that I was like, well, maybe we can work it out.
00:28:08.160You know, like maybe maybe it's not that bad.
00:28:11.220And like we did some counseling together.
00:28:13.540And I mean, it it was I should never have taken him back.
00:28:18.320Like it was no all sorts of you can I get you can't have to talk about that.
00:29:35.780But before that, I would always ask them to send me a picture
00:29:39.980holding up a piece of paper with the date written on it.
00:29:44.720And I would say I've been catfished before.
00:29:46.780If you don't mind just doing this for me,
00:29:48.460it would make me feel a lot better.0.99
00:29:50.260And the men who were catfish or who were shit, they wouldn't do it. And the men who were genuinely interested in me, they would laugh, but they would do it. And it was a way to protect myself. It was a way to kind of sift through some garbage. And I think that it is the single best thing that I did.0.99
00:30:10.900And when I was talking with John that night that I asked him, he sent me a picture and he held up a piece of paper and he wrote, I can't believe I'm doing this or I can't believe you made me do this.
00:30:22.320And I just loved that it showed a sense of humor.
00:30:34.420He's like, I want you to hold up a piece of paper with pie written on it.
00:30:37.880and so I wrote down you know 3.14 whatever um and so that is just a little smile that we both get
00:30:48.240over that and um I really do think though that was a great a great little strategy oh that's so
00:30:55.020good I've never I've never heard anyone say that before uh and I I haven't really online dated when
00:31:00.880I was dating it was just starting and then I randomly met my husband on a boat in the Galapagos
00:31:06.760But that is such good advice for women. I think one of the biggest takeaways that I've gotten from your book and also from following you is that the fairy tale is long and there are many happy endings.
00:31:25.200That's so good. I love that. Yeah, I don't think that our lives are just one chapter, right?
00:31:32.620Our lives are many chapters and, you know, a great book has highs and lows and I think a great life
00:31:39.060does as well. And I think you have to pursue that, though. You can't just be complicit in your story
00:31:49.900and your life. You have to play an active role in what you want and how you want to live and
00:31:55.240the relationships that you pursue, both intimate and friendship and colleagues. All of those
00:32:01.480relationships matter. I talked so much about community in the book. I think my community
00:32:06.780really saved me during this period. And it really matters investing in people and investing in your
00:32:15.100life. I love that. Jessica, will you tell everyone where they can find you and where
00:32:20.580they can buy your wonderful book? Yeah, you can find me online at JessicaNTurner.com. Do not miss
00:32:27.380the N because JessicaTurner.com is a porn site. So JessicaNTurner, very different site. I'm also1.00
00:32:35.520JessicaNTurner on Instagram. And you can find my book wherever books are sold. If you like a big
00:32:39.660store like Amazon or Target.com. If you want to support your local indie, just call your local
00:32:45.200indie bookstore or shop bookshop. You can also get it on all audiobook platforms. I read the book
00:32:51.040for the audio recording, and there's a special bonus conversation with my best friend of 20 years
00:32:56.300about being friends and walking through grief together. That is a really powerful bonus
00:33:01.420conversation on the audiobook version. Thank you so much for being here.
00:33:05.440Thank you for having me. What a joy. I love the work that you do and am so grateful for your voice, for your friendship, for the massive scope of your work. I think I consume all of it. I read all of your books. I listen to your podcast. I read your sub stack. I just admire you so greatly, Jo. And I've never had the opportunity to, I think, really tell you that. So I'm glad to do that here today. You are a marvel.