Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Sunday Nice Things： Parenting in the Digital Age with These Packs Puck

00:00:00.660 I don't think I can be your friend, Isabella said.

00:00:04.060 Rebecca's stomach flipped.

00:00:06.340 This is the love story of real hinge couple Isabella and Rebecca,

00:00:09.900 written and read by me, Temmie Denton-Hurst.

00:00:12.360 Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:00:19.420 Hey, y'all.

00:00:20.860 Joe here, and you are listening to Sunday Nice Things.

00:00:23.800 I'm dropping a very, very fun show in your feed today.

00:00:27.880 It is called These Packs Puck. Try to say that five times or even three times fast. I can't. Nope.

00:00:37.520 On this podcast, Three Packs Puck, Three Packs Puck, Madison and Anya Packer, professional hockey

00:00:44.400 players and moms of two, speak candidly about their life on and off the ice. They cover everything

00:00:51.360 from the chaos of raising two kids under four to conceiving as a queer couple, prioritizing mental

00:00:56.620 health and parenting while in the spotlight of a sport newly on the rise. I happen to be on this

00:01:04.040 particular episode, which is called Joe Piazza on Parenting in the Age of Social Media. It is a lot

00:01:10.960 of fun, I have a lot of advice, and I also talk about the random man at Home Depot who gave me

00:01:17.000 advice when I was pregnant that I still listen to today. If you like Three Packs Puck, you can find

00:01:23.740 it wherever you get your podcasts. Have fun with this one. It's a good time.

00:01:53.740 Anya and I met through hockey, then we got married, and now we're moms to two awesome toddlers, ages two and four.

00:02:00.580 And on our new podcast, These Packs Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives

00:02:05.500 between the juggle of being athletes, raising children, and all the messiness in between.

00:02:10.800 Hey, Anya.

00:02:11.780 What's up, Pack?

00:02:13.400 How we doing today?

00:02:14.320 I'm good. How you doing?

00:02:15.620 Good.

00:02:16.540 Good.

00:02:16.900 Hanging in there?

00:02:18.280 Yep. Kids are at school. House is quiet. Dog is sleeping.

00:02:22.680 All is good.

00:02:23.740 I was going to say, all is good. Well, I'm excited because today we're going to talk

00:02:27.260 about a hockey hot take that I'm currently and probably forever will be obsessed with.

00:02:32.560 So you want to get into a little hot, spicy take here? Let's do it.

00:02:38.880 Hockey hot take.

00:02:41.280 My hot take is I think that there needs to be more diversity. And for me, I'm thinking

00:02:48.440 gender diversity on the benches of nhl rosters from a coaching perspective jess campbell is

00:02:56.200 currently coaching at the seattle crack and she's the first woman to do it i'm blown away that it's

00:03:01.540 taken this long but what it adds to the team from dimension from visibility for girls in sport all

00:03:09.540 of the reasons i fully ship jess campbell and women being on the bench in an nhl game yeah and

00:03:16.020 I think it's maybe funny isn't the right word but ironic or frustrating that we're even having to

00:03:22.500 have the conversation like how insecure are you as a man everyone has to work for what they get

00:03:28.720 but we have it is like proven with data that it's easier to walk in a room as a white man and get a

00:03:33.880 job than anyone else in the world and here you have this athlete who had a phenomenal career as

00:03:40.000 a player now is has found success as a coach early in her career and all people want to do is point out

00:03:46.020 that she's too young this that and the other like who cares one two how do you ever get an

00:03:52.180 opportunity if no one is ever willing to give you one or take a chance on you and she got the

00:03:56.340 opportunity and she's done an amazing job with it so why don't we shut up about the fact that 0.99

00:03:59.620 she's a woman stop pointing out how she looks and this that and the other like she's owning the 0.66

00:04:04.000 narrative for sure and i'm sure there's times where she goes home and has to chuck her phone

00:04:08.900 or hide it like people are horrible yeah and i just think that it's it's so disappointing that

00:04:14.280 like we're even having to have the conversation still. So I think it's funny because I kind of

00:04:18.600 disagree with you at some points and I agree with you at others. But I love what Jess is doing. So

00:04:24.700 L'Oreal just did this national ad campaign where they showcase Jess getting ready, having the 0.94

00:04:30.380 pressure, right, having a full face, like having a beat, getting to the game and displaying her 0.99

00:04:36.900 feminine divine energy in the most powerful way, which is managing the bench, you know, doing all 1.00

00:04:44.240 the things that have nothing to do with gender, right? Her gender doesn't make her more or less 1.00

00:04:48.520 competent in the world of hockey. So for that reason, I'm a hundred percent behind it. But what 1.00

00:04:53.940 it also does is it provides a different level of all of these other intangibles. Like, you know,

00:05:00.260 you call them hard skills and soft skills. What she brings is just different than any other coach

00:05:06.040 because she is the first female to ever do it right. Like her empathy, her compassion, her

00:05:10.720 care like they're all just going to be different because women innately are different than men 0.83

00:05:14.460 and you kind of see it like billsman makes this higher because of the market that it's happening

00:05:20.000 in arms are wrapped around this person like yes there's online hate but like let's just ignore

00:05:24.500 like the basement trolls because do we care about their opinion no we don't but also like you know

00:05:32.400 you just see her doing more and pushing more barriers we talked a couple weeks ago about

00:05:36.360 fashion and sports and like, you know, wearing the hat and rocking up in sneakers and not

00:05:40.560 showcasing like your real why. I mean, like Jess is doing some different things from the

00:05:46.700 perspective of a coach. Yeah. And I think, I mean, it's no surprise, like, right. I mean,

00:05:52.340 we're shocked. No, McKinsey and company did a study a few years ago. Right. And it's backed by

00:05:58.020 data provable that companies with female leaders have higher success rates in organization,

00:06:04.000 function and financial performance full stop that is proven with data and so is she the ceo no but

00:06:12.940 she's a coach she's a woman in leadership why we have to defend that why we have to push out ads

00:06:17.300 to amplify that why we have to like stand tall and have signs and have these people's backs when

00:06:22.280 they get into these positions how about we just meet them at the door with a little respect 1.00

00:06:26.180 why does the door have to open because of laundry list of excuses as to why she got the job who 1.00

00:06:31.740 cares. She got the job and she's crushing it. And in my opinion, she was perfectly qualified. 1.00

00:06:37.800 She played at a high level. She thinks the game at a high level. She went overseas and had success.

00:06:41.720 There's not a single person in the world who can look at that woman and call her unqualified,

00:06:46.480 underprepared. It's just not true. Right. And if you think that, then you don't know the game

00:06:50.880 to push back on your point where the trolls don't matter. Sure. But it emboldens other people. Right.

00:06:57.340 To say those things, to believe those things. I know for a fact that you have decision makers within these men's sports organizations and leagues who think that women shouldn't have jobs because they don't do the job. Right. Or whatever. And it just isn't true. Like gender has absolutely nothing to do with your ability to do a job. Full stop.

00:07:19.320 But I also think that it's funny because it's also like she very much in interviews will say, I'm not just trying to fit in. I'm not just trying to be one of the guys. I'm OK with my femininity. I'm OK with what I bring. I'm just trying to be myself authentically.

00:07:35.600 and there is not enough of that narrative go back to 2014 and you have becky hammond

00:07:42.780 the spurs hire her as a coach and like the world sets a blaze a woman coaching in the nba and it

00:07:48.880 was to everybody's like shock and awe she found success i mean how could she ever possibly do

00:07:55.400 such a thing right but like in that space you have greg popovich who hires her and later on in life

00:08:01.780 She goes on to acknowledge him. She's giving this big speech and it just I think it actually just went viral. But she's giving this big speech and she says, the character and care and concern that you put into the hiring empowered me every day and you text me all the time. Just be you.

00:08:16.720 And I think like, right, so you put Popovich, you put Bilsma, you put these men in these positions to make the right hire, hiring on authenticity, hiring on skills, hiring on, you know, competencies.

00:08:30.480 And it happens to be these two incredibly intelligent women that go on to have a great level of success.

00:08:36.700 So my point in all of this hot take is why is it the first?

00:08:41.500 I'm kind of with you.

00:08:42.700 Why are we still talking about this?

00:08:44.060 But we are.

00:08:44.640 This is the world that we're in. 0.97

00:08:45.920 in the world of hockey, right, where women constantly are ostracized and made to feel 1.00

00:08:50.360 less than. A shining example of what we can do when given the right opportunity.

00:08:55.760 Yeah. And I think that the thing that I think is most ironic, right, is that we don't make

00:09:00.880 a big deal at all of men coaching in women's leagues. And in theory, it's the same. Or

00:09:06.360 are we just all that disrespectful of women that we think that men are just inherently

00:09:12.400 better because, right? Like if it's truly a fit in like, you know, women coaching men,

00:09:18.300 then why are we perfectly like comfortable with men always coaching women? And I think that that's 0.93

00:09:22.740 a way we need to start thinking about it. Like the best coaches should coach and also players

00:09:29.360 respond differently to female coaches versus male coaches. Like there's a benefit, a huge benefit

00:09:35.400 to having both on your bench. Yeah. And I think the Kraken are right for doing it.

00:09:39.360 that's where we have to be is diversity brings ideas and ideas bring change we talk about it

00:09:46.100 every perspective that we can on what needs to change in hockey to continue to up level

00:09:50.940 this is a beautiful change I love it I love the content I love the suits I love the get ready

00:09:57.180 with me I tried her ponytail it looks far less attractive on me than it does on her but I'm

00:10:03.000 totally into it I love all the things and for all the reasons that Jess Campbell is having success

00:10:07.720 on 100,000 levels.

00:10:10.420 I am excited to watch her continue to show women 0.99

00:10:13.300 that there's other ways into hockey. 1.00

00:10:15.100 There's other ways to find success.

00:10:17.240 And why is she the first?

00:10:19.820 Let's not let her be the last.

00:10:21.180 Let's continue to prop her up because that is incredible.

00:10:24.520 While I'm on this high,

00:10:26.060 and I'm so loving everything about Jess Campbell,

00:10:29.160 what's going on in hockey,

00:10:30.560 I have to tell you,

00:10:33.020 I slept a full eight hours last night.

00:10:36.240 So the check-in is going to go very well for me.

00:10:41.300 How you feeling?

00:10:47.600 I'm good. I'm like a...

00:10:49.460 Like a 92.

00:10:52.960 It's tough to get me below 80 when I'm down in Florida, though.

00:10:56.020 So, like a 92.

00:10:58.260 Only Waylon came in my bed last night. No Harlan.

00:11:01.460 He didn't pee through his nightdive, so woke up with dry sheets.

00:11:05.500 And honestly, that's a win.

00:11:07.200 Like, if that's all that goes well for me in a day,

00:11:10.320 it's a good day.

00:11:11.540 A win is a win, my dude.

00:11:13.040 Like, no peeing through a diaper is truly amazing.

00:11:15.680 I don't understand.

00:11:16.620 Like, I don't think that there's going to be a time

00:11:18.880 where he's done with a night diaper.

00:11:20.500 That's just my, like, gut feeling.

00:11:22.480 Is he going to be 30 with a night diaper on?

00:11:24.200 Probably.

00:11:24.760 Sorry to his future partner.

00:11:26.200 If he's 30 with a night diaper, I love you, babe,

00:11:28.240 but he's still sleeping in our house.

00:11:30.100 That boy will be in the bed. 1.00

00:11:32.220 If he's an H at that point, 1.00

00:11:33.620 Like, you know how he sleeps like an H between us? 0.98

00:11:35.680 Right now he's like, you know, he's getting pretty tall, actually.

00:11:38.640 Like, right now we're at the ends of the bed with this H.

00:11:40.560 But this boy is going to be massive because he's wearing a 7T and he's 4 1⁄2.

00:11:44.960 And it's freaking me out.

00:11:46.900 That being said, I, like I said, slept 8 hours.

00:11:50.380 I feel amazing.

00:11:51.740 I woke up.

00:11:52.940 I felt refreshed.

00:11:54.260 I did my face routine.

00:11:56.320 Put all my lotions on.

00:11:58.200 I'm with you.

00:11:59.460 I'm like an 85.

00:12:01.200 I feel great.

00:12:03.020 Solid.

00:12:04.020 Solid.

00:12:04.600 Can't take me down.

00:12:05.900 We're trying a new pizza place with your dad later.

00:12:08.480 Ooh.

00:12:09.760 I could go for pizza.

00:12:11.060 Your mom left to go out of town today, so it's just your dad and I with the kids.

00:12:14.320 So your mom went to the store and bought a bunch of Trader Joe's stuff for us to make for dinner in an effort to be helpful and kind.

00:12:20.760 And we're going to ignore all of it?

00:12:22.120 Of course, your dad goes, do you want to order from the crust tonight?

00:12:26.540 It's no saying no feels dangerous.

00:12:28.400 That's 100% what my dad does.

00:12:29.800 He waits till she leaves, and then he'll be like, order a bunch of carry-out, and then she comes back, and then he makes whatever she's left aside.

00:12:37.060 That's actually very funny.

00:12:38.300 Maybe I'll get pizza tonight, too.

00:12:39.720 Maybe.

00:12:40.220 Again, I'm so hyped up. 0.97

00:12:41.220 We just talked all about women that are changing our specific industry and what that looks like for us. 0.94

00:12:46.580 But, Maddie, who are we talking to next? 0.98

00:12:49.260 Our next guest is also obsessed with the ways that women are underestimated in male-dominated spaces.

00:12:56.400 But like you said, in a very different industry than ours, which is cool.

00:13:00.280 We're going to talk to Jo Piazza, who is a journalist, a podcaster, a novelist.

00:13:06.720 Basically, she does all the things, but her specific area of expertise is mom influencers

00:13:11.780 and mom content on the internet and how it's changing, what's true, what's not true.

00:13:16.980 That part.

00:13:17.540 And she's going to tell us all the secrets of the internet.

00:13:19.720 And who knows, maybe teach us a thing or two about what we're doing right, what we're doing wrong.

00:13:23.880 She's a seasoned mom of a lot of rascals, as she calls them.

00:13:27.300 So excited to chat with her and let's get into it.

00:13:53.880 hi joe hi it's nice to have you welcome to these packs buck yeah which is really hard to say guys

00:14:16.160 we wanted it to be as close to uh like a word flub as possible

00:14:21.360 Yeah, it is. Don't make me say it. Well, I'm excited to have you. I am one part of these Pax Puck and my wife Madison is with us. But if you could do a quick intro of yourself, we would love to introduce you to our audience.

00:14:36.240 Yeah. Tell us all the things.

00:14:37.700 Yeah, so I'm Joe Piazza. I'm a longtime podcaster. I've been making the Under the Influence podcast for about five years now, which started as a deep dive into the world of momfluencing on social media, but has really turned into a place for women to talk about how hard it is to be a woman and a mother in the world.

00:14:59.720 So we have on thought leaders, influencers, pretty much anyone that I think is interesting and is going to help me improve my life.

00:15:08.340 And the podcast is twice a week. I love it.

00:15:10.840 So that was kind of my day job. And then I am also an author.

00:15:14.360 I write novels and my latest one was The Sicilian Inheritance.

00:15:18.660 It is coming out in paperback right now.

00:15:21.500 It is a twisty turny murder mystery set in Sicily.

00:15:24.600 And my new one is a trad wife murder mystery called Everyone is Lying to You, which comes out in July. 0.94

00:15:31.180 That sounds like it's right up my alley. 0.98

00:15:32.720 I was going to say murder and women is my wife's life. 1.00

00:15:36.880 Murder and women. You are going to love Everyone is Lying to You. 1.00

00:15:40.560 Awesome.

00:15:41.360 That's on perfect.

00:15:42.320 Well, we're going to get into all of that.

00:15:44.700 And so for us, just so we know, most of our guests have some connection to hockey.

00:15:49.660 Your connection is unknown.

00:15:51.060 Do you have any connection to hockey?

00:15:52.420 Are you a fan? Did you play? Anything like that?

00:15:54.600 I have never played hockey in my life, but welcome. Thank you. Thank you. But I am a big

00:16:01.340 Flyers fan. Okay. Because I live, I live in Philadelphia, you know, and we live and die

00:16:07.880 by our sports teams. So I love the Flyers. I'm a massive Gritty, our mascot Stan. And in fact,

00:16:15.960 I did this awesome interview years ago where I interviewed the women who created and marketed

00:16:21.700 Gritty and it was an all-woman team that did it and so I got to follow Gritty around the arena

00:16:28.140 and yeah it was pretty great so and I'm actually taking my son to his first hockey game I think

00:16:32.640 next week I have to look at the calendar what is time I have no idea it doesn't exist I'm obsessed

00:16:37.580 with that also because Gritty is hilarious and like Gritty is a gateway to the Flyers which I

00:16:43.220 am from Boston so I loathe your Flyers but I love how much you love your Flyers which is amazing

00:16:49.280 So really funny. That's obvious. Like colors and mascot are usually like a really good gateway into caring, which Gritty is hilarious.

00:16:56.500 Totally.

00:16:57.260 So you talked about podcasting and I want to kind of like figure out a little bit about that under the influence covers all things, social media, influencing, momfluencing.

00:17:06.460 I like that you said that. What kind of like put you on that thread?

00:17:10.460 So when I had my second baby, my first daughter, I have three. I have a seven year old, a five year old and a two year old.

00:17:17.160 And when I had my my daughter five years ago, she didn't sleep at night and she was super colicky.

00:17:24.980 And so I would stay up all night holding her. And the only appendage that I had free was my thumb.

00:17:30.060 So I was scrolling and scrolling and scrolling social media. And this was the early days of mom influencing on Instagram.

00:17:36.780 Everything has changed since then. But I was being served these gorgeous images of beautiful women with their beautiful kids in their pristine white houses.

00:17:45.620 or running through fields with chickens.

00:17:48.920 And they were all trying to sell me something.

00:17:50.980 They're all trying to sell me organic baby food

00:17:53.720 or non-flammable swaddles made out of goat hair.

00:17:57.760 And I just became fascinated with this world.

00:18:01.440 And I decided I wanted to report on it.

00:18:03.980 So that's how Under the Influence was born.

00:18:06.120 And the first two seasons are really a deep, deep dive

00:18:11.480 into the world of mom influencing, how it was created.

00:18:14.980 I thought that I was going to be pulling back the curtain on this, you know, I wanted to actually

00:18:19.120 wanted to see, is everyone just lying to me? And some people are, that is the truth. But what I

00:18:24.960 also discovered is that it is a multi-billion dollar business created by women for women that

00:18:31.280 has mostly been ignored by mainstream media for a very long time because it was created by women

00:18:37.060 for women. And so it became something so much bigger than I had expected and also something

00:18:43.100 so much more interesting because I wasn't looking at these women as entrepreneurs. I wasn't looking 0.94

00:18:49.800 at this as a business. And while there is a lot of grift involved and there's a lot of BS involved

00:18:55.740 and there's a lot of accounts that make us feel too much guilt and shame about being a perfectly

00:19:01.500 average mother, which I am, I am, I'm like the most perfectly okay mom that there is very highly

00:19:09.880 mediocre and okay with it. You know, there's also a lot to commend it. And in a world where it is

00:19:16.180 very hard to be a mom and also to have a career and to have an ambitious career, influencing is 0.99

00:19:22.760 a way for women to support their families. So we told that side of it too. And now we've evolved

00:19:27.840 to talk about social media and all of the ways that it impacts us as moms because parenting in

00:19:33.480 the age of social media is so weird and fraught we were never meant to watch how other people

00:19:39.940 parent online it is i mean it just it makes my brain explode on a daily basis so we still talk

00:19:47.100 about all of that but we're also talking about you know how hard it is to be a woman in the world

00:19:51.400 these days i love all of that i think all of that is so humanizing one two like you always say like

00:19:58.520 no one puts a bad day on instagram but like that's the reality right and to your point like

00:20:02.420 you're scrolling through all of this stuff and it's like, well, should I be doing this? Should

00:20:06.560 I be doing that? What's real? What is it? But what do you think is the most surprising thing

00:20:10.800 that you learned like in the early seasons of doing this? But what's the most surprising thing

00:20:14.480 or what took you by most surprise? Yeah, of course. So in the early days, one of the things that I did

00:20:20.140 was total stunt journalism. So the early episodes of Under the Influence, I actually tried to be

00:20:26.860 a mom influencer i tried to monetize my account and also the first thing that i learned and this

00:20:33.020 blew me away i feel like people know this now but did not know it back then is that none of these

00:20:38.260 pictures or these videos were being taken in real time right so these women were hiring photographers

00:20:44.840 and videographers to shoot an entire month of content for them in a single day so i actually 1.00

00:20:53.140 hired a professional photographer to try to do this to try to create all this content in my family

00:20:57.960 and my entire family completely opted out after two hours everyone was in tears everyone was like

00:21:06.080 we don't like this stop telling us like what we have to do in these pictures I don't want to change

00:21:11.080 my clothes 14 times and I was just shut down right then and there being a mom influencer being one who

00:21:19.360 succeeds, being one who actually makes money and a small percentage of them can make a living from

00:21:23.940 it. And people are trying to become influencers every day. I would say maybe 10 percent of people

00:21:29.000 are earning a living wage of the people who are trying. But of the ones who succeed, they're

00:21:36.120 essentially running a media empire. And that's the way I wasn't thinking about it. And it kind

00:21:40.520 of changed everything for me because I worked in magazines for a long time. I know that I work.

00:21:46.460 I wouldn't let a magazine like make me feel bad about myself like I wouldn't read parenting and

00:21:52.180 be like their kitchen is so clean I'd be like this is a magazine of course it's clean and that's kind

00:21:56.600 of the way we have to look at social media and influencers all of this is staged they're creating

00:22:01.980 a show for you and if we look at it like that maybe we can just enjoy it instead of experiencing

00:22:06.780 all this mom guilt and shame about their perfect lunches or their ridiculously clean all white

00:22:13.140 houses that aren't covered in handprints all over the walls which mine absolutely are i love that

00:22:19.060 you say that like people have to recognize that it is actually a magazine because i felt so

00:22:24.820 frequently i'm like like right now our four-year-old he is pushing the limit baby he is 0.99

00:22:31.020 kicking our ass oh he's kicking our ass it's really the worst yeah he's killing us and like 0.99

00:22:36.540 a normal quote quote normal technology infused mom i'm like what do i do about this my kid is 0.99

00:22:42.280 kicking my ass and i'm like i can't find anything because no one wants to talk about it no one wants 0.81

00:22:46.200 to be real or it's like get on his level say i understand you don't feel well but and he's like 0.99

00:22:52.140 i'm gonna punch you in the face and i get it so it's like you know like we clutch to these things

00:22:57.840 and we don't necessarily recognize that it isn't always applicable and it isn't always real so like 0.97

00:23:02.160 first of all thank you for humanizing that because even i find myself like hating myself with like i

00:23:08.080 yell and I'm like in the mirror crying, hate myself. Totally. It's going to happen and I'm

00:23:12.380 not perfect. So when you go through that, you kind of like unpack some of that because right

00:23:15.980 now mental health is the biggest thing impacting all of us on a daily basis. And I would Maddie

00:23:20.940 and I dovetail it and always say, well, it's social media, right? Because that's what's

00:23:23.500 exposing it. How much of that mom influencer is probably not telling the whole story and then

00:23:30.740 not being genuine and causing some of this unrest in the momming world? I don't think anyone is

00:23:37.060 telling the whole story. I mean, in the same way that even when you go have coffee with some of

00:23:42.100 your best friends in the entire world, there's some things you're not going to tell them. Like

00:23:47.100 you're not going to say, I bit off my husband's head last night because he didn't put down the

00:23:51.860 toilet seat at three in the morning. And then I fell in the toilet when I went to the bathroom

00:23:54.880 at 3.30 in the morning. Like there's some things we just like pick and choose to share. And it's

00:24:00.060 the same for anyone who is online. But there is definitely a percentage of people who are blatantly

00:24:07.040 lying. I mean, just to perform the way that the algorithm wants. They see what is trending and

00:24:14.740 they move towards that. And then a lot of people who are also claiming to be experts. This was the

00:24:19.920 most dangerous thing that I found when I first started digging into this. The amount of people

00:24:25.720 who claim to be experts in something that like dealing with a child, they might have a couple

00:24:31.680 initials after their name you'll never find out what they mean but they seem legit especially at

00:24:38.800 two in the morning when you haven't slept in three days and the advice that they're giving

00:24:42.760 is either just kind of bogus but it can also lead towards the dangerous yeah I mean I totally bought

00:24:49.800 some of their like let me send you my pdf with my tips when I was so desperate in the middle of the

00:24:54.760 And the fact is, most people, if they're trying to sell you something online, you should be skeptical.

00:25:02.820 You should ask your questions and do your due diligence.

00:25:05.840 It's just too much information, too.

00:25:08.500 I mean, I love what you said about your mom.

00:25:10.520 Because my mom, too, she was like, yeah, I didn't have an ultrasound. 1.00

00:25:13.140 I didn't even know what gender you were. 1.00

00:25:14.520 And I'm like, yeah, of course you didn't. 0.98

00:25:15.820 This is also a generation that smoked a pack of Cools a day and was finished with the car seat. 0.85

00:25:19.820 She's like, I didn't wear a seatbelt when you were pregnant. 0.96

00:25:22.160 Yeah, exactly.

00:25:23.140 And I'm like, of course you didn't.

00:25:24.760 But yeah, it's just, it's just too much advice. I'm so sorry you have a four-year-old because

00:25:29.180 no one talks enough about how four is the worst age. Like there is this myth that two is awful.

00:25:36.480 Two is awesome.

00:25:37.280 You know the terrible twos? Two is awesome. I have a two-year-old right now. And I keep saying

00:25:41.700 that I think the terrible twos were coined by a man who was never around his four-year-old

00:25:47.680 and thought they were two. Two is awesome.

00:25:50.520 Two is so cute.

00:25:51.340 It was so cute. And like, and they're just like learning things. Four is a hellscape of doom. Okay. And I'm just getting out of it with my, my four year old has just turned five. She's finally turning the corner. But there was so much Googling that I was doing when she was four of me being like, is this normal? Yes. Did I break this child somehow? What did I do to this kid? What did I do to this kid to make it like that? And then they turn the corner at five. Their brains are just becoming brains.

00:26:20.340 Yes. Yeah. We always have to remind ourselves, right? Like Madison and I will get in this, like, I swear we get the ick with the kids. We'll be like, Waylon's doing this really horrible thing where he's lying or he's doing this thing where like today he stole something from a store. No, he really just wanted it. Right. Like he really wanted it. And he heard no.

00:26:37.420 wanted it and he greasy fingered it out of the store and now madison has to turn around and

00:26:41.320 apologize for a little thief but it's not that way right like so we have to come to these things

00:26:47.300 with a little bit of grace for these kids because i think they really are just doing the best they 0.99

00:26:51.200 can but four stinks four stinks yeah no my my four-year-old stole some shit too yeah she 0.99

00:26:55.800 definitely definitely stole some candy there was some gum there was a toy once at the cash register 0.99

00:27:00.640 and the best thing is actually in each of those instances when i went back and returned it the 0.94

00:27:05.800 cashier was like always like a retiree in their like 60s or 70s and they're just like no sweat I

00:27:11.100 don't even know why you came back they're like it's fine you could have just had it at that point

00:27:15.820 yeah yeah they're like really don't worry about it I do love that my wife is saying that two is

00:27:21.260 great though because I will say I have been mind blown at how you can have so we use the same donor

00:27:25.920 for both of our kids my wife carried both her egg for both so genetically they are identical

00:27:30.000 okay how you can have something so identical raised the same way everything right so wildly

00:27:36.780 different like Waylon was great until about four Harlan took her diaper off a week ago and pooped 1.00

00:27:44.280 on the floor yeah she's a pistol I'll remind you of that Anya because that's terrible like her her 0.67

00:27:49.340 phase like Waylon was never like this at two but our daughter is like I can't keep up I said to

00:27:54.240 Anya I'm like I need we need to get like two more people here to help me on a daily basis because

00:27:57.920 i can't turn my back for a second you know it is really funny because once i hit the third baby

00:28:03.780 and our third baby was kind of a bonus surprise baby we went to we went to an elton john concert

00:28:09.060 in north dakota and uh came home with a positive pregnancy test yeah but with her i'm like the most

00:28:15.420 chill i could possibly be because i'm like i've seen all of it with both of you because my first

00:28:19.840 and my second are completely different from each other they're like polar opposites and so now

00:28:24.340 anything she does and she's a diaper taker off or two so in the middle of the night she now takes

00:28:28.980 the diaper off and puts her pants back on so we don't even know we don't even know until we get

00:28:34.580 in there in the morning surprise i'm obsessed with that you know you kind of referenced this

00:28:40.340 when we talked about it but like the content has changed too i think the other thing is like maybe

00:28:45.800 people are being a little bit more real today than they were back in the day but you've now seen it

00:28:51.440 through multiple kids like you're now on kid three yeah you've seen it through multiple kids

00:28:55.580 you've experienced it in multiple different capacities and covered it extremely closely

00:29:00.640 yeah how is the mom fluencing changed has it the mom fluencing has a hundred percent changed i mean

00:29:08.420 i think well and i know the data backs this up our eyeballs are more on screens than they are

00:29:15.120 any other form of media at this point. And that's different from five years ago. We're definitely

00:29:21.560 spending more time on the scroll on both Instagram and TikTok than we are reading books or watching

00:29:28.440 TV shows. And so it's not social media anymore. It's just media. It is the dominant form of media

00:29:34.740 now. I think that the influencers and the content creators have gotten so much savvier,

00:29:40.500 right and the tools are better all of it looks so much more professional it is much easier to

00:29:46.260 seamlessly weave in selling links click to buy was so clunky five years ago when we were first doing

00:29:53.680 the under the influence podcast it was very difficult to set up and then very difficult for

00:29:57.520 people to access and now it is just pure seamless shopping in the middle of the night the other 1.00

00:30:03.000 night and i don't buy that many clothes for my girls because we have a lot of bigger girls in 1.00

00:30:08.160 our neighborhood and so they pass them all down like i have tupperwares filled with girls clothes

00:30:12.880 up to the age of 10 but i just had this moment of weakness where i bought matching mini boden and

00:30:19.660 boden sundresses with little sicilian lemons all over them it sounds cute though i mean we're gonna

00:30:25.960 look amazing so it's clearly worth it but like i do think that it's easier than ever for us to be 0.85

00:30:32.140 sold to, I will say, I think we're starting to see a little bit of a shift where some women are 0.99

00:30:39.600 taking more agency over talking about the things that are real and that are difficult. Similar to 1.00

00:30:46.540 what we saw, and this was before I had kids, but the early mom bloggers, you know, with the scary

00:30:51.420 mommy and those blogs where they really talked about how hard motherhood was. We're seeing some

00:30:56.860 of that but then on the other side of the spectrum we do see an intense inundation of like quote 1.00

00:31:05.240 unquote domestic bliss these women who are having five to nine children who are homeschooling them 1.00

00:31:12.740 and who are also cooking three course meals and baking sourdough bread every day a lot of which

00:31:18.160 is very performative and probably not their real life one of the things that i discovered fairly

00:31:23.420 recently actually at an influencing conference and i love this tidbit so much it becomes an

00:31:28.600 entire plot point in my influencer murder mystery is that a lot of people will rent influencer houses

00:31:35.880 to film and take photos of their content in so it's not their real kitchen it's not their real

00:31:41.860 kitchen that they're doing all of their baking videos in it's not their real bathroom that they

00:31:46.760 do their morning or nighttime makeup routines in and you can always tell if there's no toilet

00:31:50.620 because like usually if you were to put the phone on the counter you would see a toilet somewhere

00:31:54.540 right you would in my bathroom but the ones you and the seat would be up yes it would be up and

00:32:00.040 yeah that's just another part of like the unreality of it and i think it's so good to call attention

00:32:06.580 to that right because the point being it's good to be influenced by things and it's good to have

00:32:11.720 inspiration and be inspired but like reality is reality and just no one's life is that perfect

00:32:16.960 For me, I grew up in a house so clean, you could literally lick the floor.

00:32:21.240 Now I'm learning.

00:32:22.420 Well, yeah, my mom had a bunch of people to help and cleaning ladies and this, that and

00:32:25.500 the other.

00:32:26.020 We're just two people trying to figure it out with our kids here, there, and everywhere.

00:32:29.780 There's handprints everywhere.

00:32:32.260 Reality and your perception of it are often very different things.

00:32:35.640 So I love that you shared that with us.

00:32:37.240 And in that spirit, I want to keep going because you're just so well-versed in everything.

00:32:40.720 And you're a mom of three, which I'm trying to convince Anya to have one more, maybe.

00:32:44.360 but you wear all kinds of hats besides taking care of your family and we talked a little bit

00:32:48.960 offline beforehand about the technology component to kids and so we want to spend a little bit of

00:32:54.160 time maybe picking your brain a little bit what is the deal with technology and kids and why is it

00:32:58.900 like you've just given them a whole hershey's factory after you take the ipad away and is it

00:33:02.740 bad right because you get looks from parents that are like really you're giving your i'm an i'm a

00:33:06.520 ipad parent or you're really you're giving your kid the ipad but like do you think it's bad i don't

00:33:10.880 know i don't actually i'm also a kid of the 80s who grew up watching a lot of television okay like

00:33:19.600 a lot i think we all watched a lot of tv i was home alone i was like a latchkey kid by the time

00:33:24.380 i was like eight nine nine years old and phil donahue and oprah were my babysitters so and i'm

00:33:29.960 fine i'm perfectly fine you know i think screens like the ipads are a little bit different and the

00:33:36.240 way that the media is presented the thing that i don't love about it is how on demand it is it's

00:33:42.420 that they can have anything they want anytime they want whereas for us it was like no this show is on

00:33:49.340 right now and this is what you will watch as opposed to just kind of feeding into that dopamine

00:33:54.140 hit of like i can have anything i could have 19 episodes of bluey right now and that's fine and

00:33:59.980 so you know for us we're just like everything in moderation um or we try right we try we mess it up

00:34:07.320 and then we like try to go back and fix it i will give my kids a screen in a car or on a plane for

00:34:12.640 nine hours at a clip okay i'm not going to parents in a closed space without a screen and you know i

00:34:19.240 could care less who judges me for that at this point also in restaurants if we are trying to

00:34:25.980 have a meal we will always try to like get through as much of the meal as we possibly can

00:34:32.940 and the second that they start like losing the plot we're like have a little bit of screen time

00:34:38.820 my friend yes we would like to eat what we've ordered we'd like to eat what we ordered and I

00:34:43.940 think if you're the parent that is like thinking in those terms you're already a good parent you're

00:34:48.360 already parenting well like if you're concerned about how this is happening you're my biggest

00:34:53.500 concern right now and i could care less about the bluey and like the gabby's dollhouse so the gabby's

00:34:59.160 dollhouse is so annoying i find bluey a delight though i mean whoever is writing bluey is just

00:35:03.920 a genius i would date both bandit and chili healer like i'm like both of you are great like

00:35:09.640 you're wonderful parents yeah and my biggest concern for my seven-year-old is youtube yes

00:35:17.100 that's a scary one youtube really does freak us out freaks me the heck out he just got his first

00:35:22.680 computer which there's no way around it because they use them in school now okay like some of his

00:35:27.660 homework is on the computer he needed his own laptop we have all the parental controls on it

00:35:32.880 we try not to let him watch youtube but there's one thing that he loves so much which i also

00:35:39.520 cannot recommend enough i love it it is mark rober have you guys entered the mark rober phase yet no

00:35:46.040 Oh gosh. He is a former NASA engineer who worked on the Mars rover and now he does physics videos

00:35:53.220 for kids. Cool. Explaining physics in a cool fun way. He has this box that he sends kids

00:35:59.220 every month called Crunch Labs where they build something like they build a catapult or like they

00:36:05.580 built like a movie thing and a robot. It's wild. His videos are awesome and I will let my seven

00:36:11.760 year old boy watch them all day long i don't want him watching anything else on youtube it's so

00:36:16.880 scary will then will then just move into things that are not kid friendly i don't think mr beast

00:36:22.600 is kid friendly but they roll into mr beast videos and so dealing with youtube is the worst

00:36:28.680 thing that i've had to do in terms of screens and you can't download the content and then play it

00:36:33.380 elsewhere because our kids are big danny go fans they'll do like the dances and the activities and

00:36:38.280 And like, in my mind, I'm like, yeah, you're getting screen time, but you're moving.

00:36:41.000 So I'm all in on the Danny Go.

00:36:42.720 I love Danny Go.

00:36:44.600 But I can't download it and then stop it from looping into some random person in some random corner of the universe playing a game or a toy that they then want.

00:36:54.580 Exactly.

00:36:54.940 And then my kids have access to the Alexa.

00:36:58.180 So they'll say, Alexa, order Hot Wheels cars.

00:37:00.780 And guess what shows up at the house tomorrow?

00:37:02.640 Hot Wheels cars.

00:37:03.720 And we're kind of the same way.

00:37:05.000 Like technology in moderation is what we are comfortable with.

00:37:08.060 we don't want to go down the pathway of like our kids only write in calligraphy that doesn't

00:37:12.900 happen right like they play on an ipad it's going to be fine we're all going to move on from that

00:37:16.500 but like how and where do you find that like is it is it just giving yourself grace is it just

00:37:22.760 knowing that it's going to be okay like because we don't really see that in any other format on

00:37:28.120 social media right it is really the like we have chickens we make bread we blah blah blah and

00:37:33.080 that's not always the reality right it might be we got through 20 minutes of dinner and then we

00:37:37.920 hit the iPads and everyone ate their meal. Nobody cried. And then we got in the car.

00:37:41.940 And that's life. And that's what we're never going to see on social media because it's not

00:37:46.420 sexy. It's there. People do post it, but the algorithm doesn't love it as much as it loves

00:37:52.460 nine times pregnant bellies and running through the fields with the chickens. We just don't see

00:37:57.580 the normal mundane. This is how I got through my day. And it's one of the things that I try to talk

00:38:02.820 about as much as I can on Under the Influence. And I've got a sub stack that's called Over the

00:38:07.860 influence where I posted my very un-aesthetic morning routine, okay? Which is like, I don't

00:38:15.400 wake up at 5.30 in the morning before my children to go work out. I wake up when they show up in my

00:38:21.060 room on my lap, breathing in my face, and barely get dressed before walking out the door, often at

00:38:27.340 school drop-off in my pajamas. But it's just like, no one really wants to post that because even if

00:38:33.400 we're not influencers. Everyone just has this inclination to post the good or the extraordinary

00:38:40.080 as opposed to this is how I made it through my day. The dangerous part about that is that Instagram

00:38:47.000 makes us feel like we're peering into someone's reality and not just someone but our friends

00:38:53.620 because it's interspersed with pictures of our friends' babies and their vacations. So we feel

00:38:59.280 like it's very voyeuristic and not staged. And then that feels like it's real life. I mean,

00:39:04.700 one of the things that I've been trying to do more and more of is inviting my friends over to

00:39:10.260 my house and not bothering to clean it up. Just being like this. It's a mess. It's a mess. Like

00:39:16.160 this is my real bedroom. This is my real kitchen because I don't think we see enough of each

00:39:21.160 other's realities right now. I fully agree. I'm obsessed with Nikki Unplugged. Do you know Nikki

00:39:27.120 Marie on social media no you've got to follow her she's a Boston girly so she's like from from the 1.00

00:39:32.600 inside of my heart someone will post a video that's like them dolled up to the nines to go 1.00

00:39:36.640 to drop off and then it's her with like a bun two coffee cups one Ugg boots brown one's blonde like 1.00

00:39:42.140 sweats she like very much humanizes momming and so like when you can find folks like that that 0.93

00:39:46.960 really are doing a great job I'm so obsessed with the shit podcast Nikki Unplugged and this is a 0.84

00:39:51.560 plug for Nikki Unplugged but she's hilarious and she's real I'm excited I'm gonna download all of

00:39:56.980 it right now. Yeah. You've got to, you've got to follow her. She's amazing.

00:40:09.120 I don't think I can be your friend, Isabella said. Rebecca's stomach flipped. This is the

00:40:15.240 love story of real hinge couple Isabella and Rebecca, written and read by me,

00:40:19.280 Tammy Denton-Hurst. Listen to the free audio book now.

00:40:26.980 from Dentine Gum. Is it ever okay to compliment a millennial on their skinny jeans? In 2026,

00:40:37.880 Dentine, too bold.

00:40:49.640 In everything that you just said, I think that a part of, at least for me, and I think a lot of

00:40:53.540 moms and dads too but we're a two-mom household like you become a parent you become so hyper

00:40:58.720 focused on taking care of these little things that you forget to take care of yourself and a

00:41:02.160 huge part of having kids obviously is the relationship that brought you together to

00:41:06.400 start that family and you've also made a few podcasts about relationships right committed

00:41:10.880 where you've interviewed married couples and she wants more which is about why women have affairs

00:41:15.860 which is scandalous and fun but in making both of those shows what have you learned about how to

00:41:21.360 maintain a stable loving relationship and do you have any advice to us as we weather the storm of

00:41:26.660 crazy kids and you know two and four just kind of getting through that yeah I mean I think just

00:41:32.160 giving yourself as much grace as possible and giving your partner as much grace as possible

00:41:38.160 and I don't think that the partner part of it was something that I saw until our third baby I think

00:41:43.980 I was really frustrated with my husband a lot of the time and maybe I didn't realize I'm like oh

00:41:49.460 it's just as hard as it is for him, probably more so because he is a man than it is for me. And

00:41:55.180 also then making space for your relationship as much as possible. It's so funny because

00:42:00.160 with my first baby, I felt so terribly guilty about leaving him. And now I just love leaving

00:42:06.940 my children so much. I'm going to Amsterdam with my husband in four hours. It's a research trip for

00:42:12.000 a book, but also just so we can have a four day trip to Amsterdam together. And the kids are going

00:42:18.100 be fine. They're with one of their caregivers and my mother and they're also in school and

00:42:22.640 surrounded by people who love them. And we finally in the past two years started making space for our

00:42:27.860 relationship and prioritizing that as much as we prioritize being parents. And I think that it has

00:42:33.480 just made all of the difference. And I'm not even just saying date nights because like sometimes I

00:42:37.920 don't want to go to a bar. Like I'm like, oh, so what we just did is we finally put a TV in our

00:42:43.560 bedroom. We did not have a TV in our bedroom before so that we can have sneaky date nights

00:42:47.420 in our room and the kids can be downstairs with the babysitter and we can just sort of take out

00:42:52.520 upstairs and binge watch tv and have like a lazy person's date night and i think we're actually

00:42:58.700 we're getting along better and we're just dealing with it a lot better now and also we literally

00:43:03.940 ask for all of the help like we moved home to philadelphia to be close to my mom so she is in

00:43:10.040 and out of our house all of the time we also moved to philly because it's way cheaper than new york

00:43:14.600 in san francisco so we can afford to have a bigger house and we have an au pair who lives with us

00:43:20.000 so we ask for and take literally all of the help so that we can still be fully formed human beings

00:43:26.580 and i think that the kids are happier for it too because when we're happier we're like yelling less

00:43:32.260 and we're like at them and at each other and at ourselves and so i think we've reached this point

00:43:37.640 where we're just a lot happier as parents because we do give ourselves grace and we're a little less

00:43:43.280 worried i think that is a function of having a third baby and seeing that the first two are fine

00:43:47.840 that they ended up like they're doing okay joe stop saying that stop saying so you're saying

00:43:53.740 we should have a third you should do it you should you should have a third baby okay like nick did

00:43:59.040 not think that he wanted a third baby okay but i was also like if you really don't want one

00:44:03.460 fine your body your choice dude but then get a vasectomy yeah like i'm not i'm not staying on

00:44:09.580 the pill and so he didn't get a vasectomy and i got a third baby and he agrees she is the best of

00:44:16.040 all of them like she is just she's a delight she's like a great addition and three is not harder than

00:44:22.820 two because we already have two yeah and it's hard it's hard to have multiple children and so

00:44:28.080 we're just like i think you get really used to it best guest we've ever had the award goes to you

00:44:33.480 well i will be canceling this entire interview and it's all getting deleted um i'm obsessed with

00:44:38.480 everything you said and i feel like it actually kind of like answered our final question but i do

00:44:42.420 want to just underscore something really quickly you did say your body your choice so i just like

00:44:47.420 i wanted to infuse that in here maddie just so that we can i can't wait for you to be pregnant

00:44:52.140 babe you're going to look beautiful no one wants that at the end of every single podcast we we ask

00:44:58.360 a question and it's what kind of advice have you received as a parent that has been foundational

00:45:04.120 for you. And then like the caveat to that is like maybe no one told it to you and you had to

00:45:08.520 discover it. But what could you give to Maddie and I so that we can upskill in that parenting

00:45:13.780 format? Like what do you wish you heard or what have you heard that's really like changed your

00:45:17.380 life? My favorite advice came to me from an old man in Home Depot when I was pregnant with my

00:45:24.800 first baby. And he saw that I was pregnant and like all old men had a lot of thoughts. And so 0.83

00:45:31.080 he wrote down on a little like Home Depot pad, take a trip when the baby is three months old

00:45:36.720 because they won't be able to move and they won't have any opinions.

00:45:40.680 And then he really pushed the boundaries and told me to make whoopee with my husband

00:45:46.980 before going out on date night, because you're always tired and full of food when you get home.

00:45:55.580 I think all pieces of advice, mostly the train YouTube is quite interesting.

00:45:59.500 Were you like...

00:45:59.940 All gems.

00:46:00.500 I still have that.

00:46:01.480 He actually didn't even work at Home Depot, just to be clear.

00:46:03.720 That was just a random dude. 0.98

00:46:05.900 Random dude that likes to talk to pregnant women. 0.95

00:46:08.200 This was eight years ago. 1.00

00:46:09.500 Creepy old men are allowed to talk to us then.

00:46:11.180 And then, you know, the advice that I would bestow on you, it's similar to what I just said. 0.99

00:46:18.040 Although I will tell you that I have heard they do it before date night from other people now after having kids.

00:46:23.620 And I'm like, it is gold.

00:46:24.720 Yeah, that's a good one.

00:46:25.440 Just like, have the babysitter take them to the playground.

00:46:27.740 around even if it's just make it out time yeah make out and then go make out and then go because

00:46:32.960 you get home you're a little tipsy you're tired that one is really gold but also just like to try

00:46:39.540 and I'm really embracing this right now too I'm trying to go with the flow a lot more because

00:46:46.460 everything with these kids is a season and it changes and it does not last forever I'm able

00:46:52.280 to let things go a lot more than I used to but also the fact is when you're in the thick of it 0.92

00:46:57.340 it does suck. And like, I think acknowledging that is really, really important because this

00:47:02.200 is hard. Parenting is hard. Parenting in the world that we live in right now is hard. And so,

00:47:07.200 yeah, give ourselves as much grace as possible because I think we're all doing a good job.

00:47:10.840 This has been incredible. Thank you so much for sharing everything. I'm excited for your books

00:47:15.200 to come out this summer. We're definitely going to check them out. Thank you. This has been deeply

00:47:19.040 entertaining for the both of us. And I know our audience is going to love it. So thank you. And

00:47:23.960 we're going to take those pointers moving forward.

00:47:27.220 Maybe some of them, maybe not all of them.

00:47:29.580 Matt, he's just excited to make out before the date.

00:47:32.640 That's all I heard.

00:47:33.860 We're going to go make out now.

00:47:35.880 Go make out now.

00:47:37.080 I know.

00:47:37.320 I'm excited to go to Amsterdam to make out.

00:47:38.880 Yeah, go make out in Amsterdam.

00:47:40.300 And then go to dinner.

00:47:41.200 We'll make out in our closet high from our babysitter right now.

00:47:43.960 You make out in Amsterdam and we'll see how we'll.

00:47:45.900 That's actually kind of hot.

00:47:46.880 Yeah, that's what I think too.

00:47:47.880 Yeah, exactly.

00:47:50.420 Bye guys.

00:47:51.080 Thanks so much for having me.

00:47:51.780 Thank you, Jo.

00:47:52.500 Thank you.

00:47:53.960 and that's all we have today thank you for listening i'm anya packer and i'm madison

00:48:00.340 packer and this is these packs puck these packs puck is a production of iheart women's sports

00:48:09.420 and deep blue sports and entertainment it's hosted by us madison and anya packer emily

00:48:14.700 marinoff is our awesome senior producer and story editor we were mixed and mastered by mary du our

00:48:20.460 Our executive producers are Jennifer Bassett, Jesse Katz, and Allie Perry.

00:48:37.700 You want to impress them on a first date, but also play it cool.

00:48:42.060 So what do you do?

00:48:44.400 I'm Rufy Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinged couple that navigated exactly that.

00:48:50.460 listen to the free audiobook now. Chew on this bold question from Dentine Gum.

00:48:56.020 Is it ever okay to compliment a millennial on their skinny jeans in 2026? Dentine, chew bold.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - April 13, 2025

Sunday Nice Things： Parenting in the Digital Age with These Packs Puck

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