Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Do I Need a Hobby？

00:00:00.000 You matched on Hinge. You're vibing. Then her energy completely changes. What do you do?

00:00:06.780 I'm Raven Smith, and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact sitch.

00:00:11.600 Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:00:19.280 Hey y'all, Jo here, and you are listening to Under the Influence.

00:00:23.360 Do you have hobbies? Because I don't really have hobbies.

00:00:27.900 And I think that's my fault because I have managed to turn a lot of very hobby-like, hobby-ish things into my business, right? I read for a living. My main job, my main form of income is writing, which some people do as a hobby. I make podcasts, so I can't really listen to those as a hobby.

00:00:55.320 I have not yet monetized bird watching, but I'm sure I could if I really, really felt like I had

00:01:02.180 to. I work out. I do. I go to Pilates and yoga, but that also doesn't feel like a hobby. It feels

00:01:10.780 like something I do to be strong and to stay healthy. But I'm endlessly fascinated by people

00:01:18.320 who do have hobbies, who prioritize time for something that is just for fun. My best friend,

00:01:27.000 Jackie Cascarano, she is getting her master's in positive psychology at the University of

00:01:32.240 Pennsylvania. And she is also fascinated by hobbies and fascinated particularly by how women

00:01:39.780 both don't have and also need hobbies. So together, Jackie and I have decided to explore the world of 0.74

00:01:48.760 hobbies over the course of the next year. We're calling it our adventure year. She got a head

00:01:53.940 start because I've been finishing up the manuscript for Parisian Heist. Get those orders in today,

00:01:58.180 people. Seriously, just order the Parisian Heist right now while you're listening. You're not going

00:02:02.540 to regret it, okay? It is a wonderful, wonderful book. It's going to be a great surprise when it

00:02:07.820 drops into your mailbox on July 14th. Like, wonderful surprise. You'll be like, yay, Bastille

00:02:13.020 Day. Yay to me. I'm going to go eat some cheese in a baguette now and read my book. Anyway, yes.

00:02:18.960 So Jackie got a head start on the adventure year. She has started taking Mahjong classes. I'm going

00:02:23.700 to start Mahjong classes soon. And I really wanted to share this with you because I want to hear

00:02:28.260 about your experiences with hobbies and then also explore just the idea of women not having things

00:02:36.120 that we do for our personal joy, for our personal pleasure, the things that can crack open our

00:02:42.660 brains in new ways, and how embracing those kinds of things can actually contribute to

00:02:49.080 our mental and physical well-being.

00:02:51.640 So here is my conversation with Jackie, where we get started on our adventure year.

00:02:56.400 hello jackie hello johanna i want to talk about a lot of things today number one i really want

00:03:15.020 to learn how to play mahjong i think it's important i think so i don't know why i think

00:03:19.720 it's important i think i've been getting a lot of signs from the universe that i should learn

00:03:24.180 to play mahjong and you've been doing this so i i just do you think that i should learn to play

00:03:30.980 mahjong i'm loving mahjong yeah i think you i i think i think it would be wonderful for you it's

00:03:37.800 hard so mahjong is really complex so much so that you must you don't have to but it is wise to pay

00:03:45.140 a mahjong instructor to pay you for a or to to have a mahjong 101 lesson so you you need

00:03:54.360 instruction it's not I mean you couldn't just like open a mahjong book and like try to wing it

00:03:58.920 but it's really good to have like a mahjong 101 lesson where you are taught the ins and outs there

00:04:04.820 are table rules there are a lot of rules there's so there's like there's like cultural things of

00:04:11.400 like don't touch my tiles don't touch my racks and then there's like how to play the game don't

00:04:16.060 touch my rack that's what i said uh no i mean i'm all for paying people to teach me to do things

00:04:23.980 i'm all for paying people to teach my kids to do things so i don't have to teach them to do things

00:04:28.020 let's back up just a little bit because you're learning mahjong as part of our adventure year

00:04:34.700 and this is an introduction into a thing that we're working on together as best friends

00:04:38.780 called our called our adventure year do you want to do you want to explain a little bit what this 0.83

00:04:45.060 is and why you're doing this i would love to so adventure year is about women thriving

00:04:52.840 specifically after or even during times of time stress so i had a midlife crisis a couple of years

00:05:02.900 ago. Oh yeah. Tell people about that. Tell people about that. It was like NBD. It was around 40. I'm

00:05:10.420 45 now. Everything just kind of came to a head in terms of like a cluster of my life. I felt very

00:05:18.560 out of control. I didn't love the job I was in. I didn't really feel like I was doing what I was

00:05:26.220 supposed to be doing. I was at a frenetic pace in terms of work, family, personal stuff,

00:05:33.040 professional stuff. I didn't really have clarity on like what I wanted out of my life. It all came

00:05:37.460 to a head. I started going to therapy and all is well now. Okay. But it was shitty at the time.

00:05:45.360 It was, I mean, I remember telling my therapist and I've told people this, that I felt very numb. 0.68

00:05:52.240 I felt very, I told her, I was like, I feel like a houseplant. I feel like a fern in the corner.

00:05:58.400 I don't have emotions. I've been people pleasing for so long that I don't even know what I like

00:06:04.400 anymore. I don't even know, like, do I, do I like Sudoku? Do I like Chinese food? Do I, I don't even

00:06:10.760 know because I'm so busy, like catering to the needs of other people around me. Right. You know,

00:06:16.860 I'm like taking care of my kids, my husband, kicking ass at work just because. 0.98

00:06:22.400 But I think this is normal for a lot of women of a certain age, right? 0.99

00:06:28.940 Exactly. Precisely. 0.68

00:06:31.160 And my therapist told me to start looking into interests and journaling, which I know you always roll your eyes at.

00:06:42.020 And that was incredibly helpful for me.

00:06:44.900 So I began to just do little things that I was interested in, really reconnect with myself, and it was immensely helpful.

00:06:52.800 So that was a couple of years ago.

00:06:55.060 Fast forward to today, and I'm finding myself, the midlife crisis is over, but I'm finding myself in another season where I'm really busy.

00:07:05.500 so I feel at peace with who I am and what I want out of my life but I'm in this period where I have

00:07:14.620 no time for anything I'm in grad school now as as we've discussed I have I launched two companies

00:07:20.800 so I'm I'm working two jobs I'm the boss but it's just even more you know anxiety inducing

00:07:28.540 I'm a wife. I've got parents who are older who, you know, need attention. And I'm finding that

00:07:36.660 in this period of time stress, I'm, there's no time for myself. I have no hobbies. I have no

00:07:44.780 interests. There's just no time to do anything that's kind of devoted to me. And in any time

00:07:51.220 that I have that is quote unquote discretionary. I'm using it for like packing lunches or making

00:07:59.300 sure that slide deck is like perfect for next week. Do you know what I'm saying? Like there's

00:08:03.620 just no, everything of every day has to be productive. The thing that got me sort of

00:08:10.020 riled up was thinking like, so we lovingly encourage our husbands to like go to poker

00:08:18.180 night right or like john will play play golf for like six plus hours what is that it's like a six

00:08:24.560 hour hobby that's crazy and that's just socially it's socially acceptable yes right yes so but we

00:08:32.700 have really internalized this messaging that says that like every minute of our days as women has to

00:08:37.880 be productive so you know i'm when there is um an hour that i could potentially do something for 0.99

00:08:46.640 myself. I'm being productive for the next day. So that dawned on me. I was kind of like, huh,

00:08:52.960 that's just like a misogynistic messaging from the patriarchy that's been internalized and I've

00:08:58.940 absorbed. So I am doing a master's in positive psychology, which is essentially the empirical

00:09:08.220 science of well-being. So it's studying and the research behind how a human being can flourish

00:09:15.620 and can be running on all cylinders and really fully satisfied and fulfilled by their life.

00:09:22.680 And a lot of what I'm learning is that these little, like pursuing these interests and passions

00:09:31.360 is actually incredibly vital to one's well-being.

00:09:35.500 And it all makes sense because I'm looking back, right?

00:09:37.840 And Joe, you've had these experiences where you look back on these periods of life where

00:09:41.460 they were so stressful and you were so not well.

00:09:43.640 It was like a period of ill being, quote unquote. And you're like, yeah, I didn't do anything besides work and sleep and parent. Right.

00:09:53.320 So it's adventure year is about having something for yourself, a hobby that is just a hobby like golf can just be a hobby. 0.95

00:10:04.020 Sometimes it's networking, but I think they pretend it's networking when really it's just fucking around. 0.94

00:10:08.900 Drinking all day. You start drinking at 9 a.m. 0.98

00:10:10.720 You drink at 9 a.m. So there's a difference between something that is really productive for you, which oftentimes I would say yoga or working out, which is what I do in my free time. But I'm doing that to get strong and lose weight.

00:10:24.620 Yeah. So there lies the distinction between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Okay. So something that is intrinsically motivating is something that's kind of coming from within. You're doing it because you find it interesting or meaningful or satisfying, like in its own right. Like you do it just because you delight, like it delights you.

00:10:51.880 Okay. Doing something that's extrinsically motivating is coming from some sort of pressure outside, even if it's like not a bad pressure. And that's where I think exercise falls.

00:11:06.760 So I, a lot of women think they have hobbies because they exercise and that's just not true. I do not think that Pilates or yoga counts as a hobby because if I, if I could snap my fingers and be fit and not ever have to do bar again, I would do it.

00:11:27.240 oh my god totally same same same same i mean i want to be fit i want to be healthy but doing

00:11:33.240 the actual bar experience like that's not something i do because it delights me i like

00:11:37.800 the feeling afterwards of accomplishment but it's different than playing mahjong because it's fun

00:11:43.720 or playing pickleball because you actually like enjoy the camaraderie with your pickleball team

00:11:51.240 and it's right it's a little bit different because it brings you delight it brings you actual joy

00:11:56.780 exactly of the doing of the thing and i think that's the difference here i don't really have

00:12:03.500 any hobbies no neither did i that is the point and to incorporate hobbies seems bananas when you

00:12:15.720 are this dizzy but it does it does but we also need it why do we need it okay so we need it

00:12:22.720 because incorporating a hobby is going to impact all the dimensions of well-being that we really

00:12:30.600 are kind of neglecting a lot in these periods of time stress okay so if you are engaging in a hobby

00:12:37.440 that you again intrinsically motivated like something that delights you and and you and I

00:12:44.100 this year are exploring a number of different hobbies we don't know what's going to stick

00:12:48.760 like i don't know of what might be fun for me mahjong is sticking i did watercolor as well

00:12:55.660 watercolor is less sticky but like if you do something that is extrinsically motivating that

00:13:01.200 you do just because you love it and you take time to do it you're going to be having more positive

00:13:05.400 emotions that's one pillar of well-being actually having like positive emotions in your day think

00:13:11.520 about a day where you have no positive emotions it's not good um you're going to be in flow more

00:13:17.400 so flow is that engaged feeling where you kind of lose lose sense of time and you're like in

00:13:23.200 in totally engaged in something and it's really really good for you you also this is a cool thing

00:13:28.920 about hobbies you also um it impacts relationships so that's something i found already so i'm doing

00:13:36.120 mahjong and i've already made friends with all these little old ladies in the mahjong club by

00:13:40.260 the way it's not tell me tell me the mahjong club like tell me it's not all about going to the

00:13:44.360 mahjong club yeah okay so first of all mahjong is has taken over and it's a lot of women like us

00:13:49.860 in midlife even young even the youngs even the youngs are there um but i happen to be

00:13:57.060 sitting at a table and learning with these older ladies who are fabulous vicky kathy and then 0.70

00:14:05.320 pamela showed up last night she was like she's like a rocker songwriter um i think she was 1.00

00:14:09.940 cheating about it. But the community is something I did not expect. I did not expect to make new

00:14:19.600 friends. And that's beautiful. Like getting out of your comfort zone and out of your little

00:14:24.740 bubble where it's like the moms from school and your work colleagues and the neighbors,

00:14:30.140 like getting out and kind of fostering new relationships. Incredibly good for your well-being.

00:14:37.680 Right. And where else would you do that? I mean, I also also I love my bubble.

00:14:41.620 Like, I really love my bubble. I love my friends.

00:14:43.760 It's comfy, cozy, though. Comfy, cozy.

00:14:45.960 Comfy, cozy. But I don't get out of the comfort zone.

00:14:49.120 I don't know where else I would meet new people.

00:14:52.720 Take a salsa class and you're going to meet a whole new group of people.

00:14:56.340 Seriously. It's and I think that's part of it, too.

00:14:59.300 There's another aspect of it, Joe.

00:15:02.100 And this is what I'm learning about in in my master's program.

00:15:06.060 there is something called psychological richness. And it's a different thing than

00:15:12.760 quote unquote happiness, right? Happiness gets a lot of luck because it's like smiley faces and

00:15:18.120 there's toxic positivity and that's annoying. And that's not what we're talking about. We're

00:15:22.120 talking about fulfillment. But psychological richness is something you experience when you

00:15:27.920 have novel experiences in your life. And it's kind of cool to think about. I mean,

00:15:33.460 that's where travel comes in right like think about just doing the same old routine over and

00:15:37.880 over again it's comfy cozy but you're not there's not a lot of personal growth because you're just

00:15:43.880 doing the same old thing over and over again so these novel experiences we're getting out of the

00:15:48.420 comfort zone you're traveling you're doing salsa lessons i'm i'm i do not want to learn how to

00:15:55.060 scuba dive because no i love school i actually love scuba diving i know but you're you and i'm

00:16:00.640 I'm like it scared me but I want but like I want I actually want to scuba dive I just I don't know

00:16:07.000 why I'm like I'm afraid of it so well we might be doing it on adventure year because I get to

00:16:11.400 choose some things that is what I'm saying right precisely like I like I'm not going to force

00:16:16.840 myself to bungee jump or something because I actually really don't want to do it and I think

00:16:20.100 it's terrible it's actually terrible yeah I did not Australia at some point I did it in I did it

00:16:26.000 New Zealand and I did skydiving I did skydiving I did skydiving and bungee jumping in New Zealand

00:16:32.640 and the skydiving was almost easier because your brain can't comprehend how far the distance is

00:16:41.360 and then also someone else is kind of in control bungee the first time I did it I did not want to 1.00

00:16:47.540 I chickened out this girl from New Zealand who was like controlling the bungee thing she was 1.00

00:16:52.480 probably younger than I was looks at me and goes don't be a pussy and just shoves me off the 1.00

00:16:57.900 platform I'm like this is not legal and I hated it so much and then I tried it a second time 1.00

00:17:03.720 because I'm like was I a pussy and I just check it out I didn't do it the second time I was like 0.97

00:17:07.980 this is not for me I I now know thyself even though I'm 19 years old because I shall not do 0.99

00:17:13.620 this again well you're relying on those New Zealand people who are probably high they were 0.95

00:17:17.740 definitely hot but so here's the thing so getting out of your comfort zone i did a lot of

00:17:22.620 very courageous things like when i was in my early 20s like in high school senior of high school i

00:17:29.320 sang a song in the school musical in front of a crowd of people right like and i don't and i don't

00:17:36.980 want to scuba dive but i'm gonna i'm gonna force myself to learn i am and i think that that that

00:17:43.720 Getting out of my comfort zone is very, very good for psychological richness and well-being.

00:17:50.500 And it's just these new experiences that really connect us to who we used to be before we were, you know, whatever our current roles are, mom, colleague, boss, wife.

00:18:02.780 Wife.

00:18:03.480 Wife. 1.00

00:18:04.500 All right, let's take a quick break.

00:18:06.000 And when we get back, I want to talk about some of the things that we want to do during Adventure Year.

00:18:13.720 I didn't like what you said, Odin pauses, about the future.

00:18:20.820 This is the love story of real hinge couple Odin and Edward,

00:18:25.100 written and read by me, Curtis Garner.

00:18:27.860 Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:18:35.540 Okay, we're back.

00:18:37.960 This conversation, even though we've had it before,

00:18:40.720 is blowing up in my brain in an interesting way. Because you mentioned how you had a lot

00:18:48.780 more psychological richness when you were younger, when you were in high school. I'm

00:18:53.940 talking about when I was traveling in college. Our lives feel more open to these kinds of

00:19:01.620 experiences until we hit a certain age. Or maybe it's until we become mothers or become

00:19:08.440 wives or become too busy are you seeing a lot of women who just kind of hit that wall and they're 0.76

00:19:13.940 like now i just don't do that anymore yes and a lot of it has to do with um i i said this before

00:19:26.340 and i'll say it again i think that we feel like we don't deserve the time that there's so much

00:19:33.300 better use of our time like if i have a free weekend to go travel or a week to travel i have

00:19:43.080 to consider what my kids need and what my kids are doing um if if if i go on a girl's weekend

00:19:50.740 how's that going to impact um the division of labor in my home right like and think of and i'm

00:19:56.960 a lot of women do this where it's like okay i'm going on a girl's weekend i guess um i'm gonna

00:20:02.320 I'm going to I'm going to owe my husband big time for holding down the fort and watching the kids. 0.98

00:20:08.260 And then a lot of women are really they're postponing what they're calling their hobby era. 0.94

00:20:15.340 I have a lot of friends who have said to me, oh, Mahjong, that's so fun. 0.78

00:20:20.060 I can't wait to do Mahjong when I'm retired.

00:20:22.700 And I'm like, why? Why not now?

00:20:25.440 And this is, you know, as we get older, Joe, as, you know, we've lost parents, we're not promised tomorrow. So if I want to learn Mahjong, why am I waiting until when I'm in my 70s? Who knows if I'm going to be, like, able to play Mahjong in my 70s? Who knows if I'm going to live long enough to experience all these really fun adventures and pastimes when I quote unquote retire, which by the way, no one is retiring anymore.

00:20:55.440 I mean, no one is retiring. I don't think financially I would even know how we would

00:21:03.900 retire and keep up our standard of living. And we do all of the retirement things. We put all

00:21:09.620 of the things in the right places. It still seems impossible. A thousand percent. So that's

00:21:16.740 where it is. People are wanting to incorporate these fun activities. And this is play. This is

00:21:23.700 fun. This is really important to mental health. And the fact that we don't incorporate this into

00:21:28.880 our lives seriously impacts, you know, how we walk into every day. I had a really intense day

00:21:36.980 yesterday. I had work. I had schoolwork. I drove children around. We had six driving shifts,

00:21:45.340 okay? Picking one kid up, taking her here. The other over here. John and I split them up. 0.57

00:21:50.460 So I had the first three. He had the last three. And at 5 p.m., I went to Mahjong night. And I considered bailing consistently throughout the day. I was like, this is not a good night. And you know what? I'm really happy I went. And when I sat down and played Mahjong with Kathy and Pamela and Vicky, it was good. I nearly got Mahjong. Pamela cheated. I would have gotten it.

00:22:16.020 I bet Pamela cheated. I bet she did. 1.00

00:22:19.760 But it's interesting that you did consider cutting it out because those are the first things that I consider cutting out when I'm stressed.

00:22:27.440 I'm like, oh, OK, this thing that's just for me or this thing that I need.

00:22:33.480 And again, I don't think men do that. I really don't.

00:22:36.860 I don't think any man ever has been like, I'm not going to go to my golf game because a family's overwhelmed.

00:22:43.720 And I do think to your point, I do think there's a lot of cover because it's dudes getting together and it's all it's all business networking and whatnot.

00:22:54.120 And everything is business networking.

00:22:56.520 Well, because golf has been framed as networking.

00:22:59.440 Yeah.

00:22:59.660 As like the country club sauna was framed as networking.

00:23:02.980 There's a reason that for so long you could write off your golf club or your country club on your taxes because they're like that is a business thing.

00:23:12.360 and women network over manicures or blowouts and yet you could never exactly and I think that

00:23:20.720 once you start I listen I think that there has been a real acceptance of the concept of rest

00:23:28.100 as important right so I think we all now know rest is incredibly important we all need as close

00:23:34.840 to eight hours of sleep as possible you need to rest that conversation has been started and has

00:23:39.740 been accepted. And that's wonderful. I also think a conversation needs to start about pastimes and

00:23:46.260 passions for women who are looking to be mentally well. And if we are mentally well, if our well-being 0.94

00:23:54.820 is where it needs to be, we're going to be contributing to society in even more profound

00:24:00.680 ways. So the conversation needs to start about incorporating passions and pursuits. And that

00:24:09.040 it's it's not selfish it's self-care it's incredibly important well that is interesting

00:24:14.540 because you're right we have prioritized rest we talk so we talk so much about rest and yet

00:24:21.940 you're you're talking about these hobbies as passion as play and again that feels almost

00:24:30.940 frivolous in the same way that rest felt frivolous in the high-powered 90s and 2000s where

00:24:37.360 every interview that you saw with the ceo was like i only need to sleep three hours a night

00:24:42.560 yeah yeah exactly i agree and i think that that's why i'm excited about this project we're doing joe

00:24:50.100 i'm excited about doing this experiment and it really is an experiment like let's see what

00:24:54.920 happens like i'm what i keep telling everyone is i don't have time for this and i'm still doing it

00:25:01.260 you don't have time for it joe like you're we are busy but i'm purposely squeezing in time

00:25:07.060 to dedicate to some things that i find absolutely delightful in and of themselves

00:25:14.580 well you've gotten a head start you started with the mahjong i want to try the mahjong

00:25:20.360 i've been on book deadline obviously you were supposed to come to paris with me last week but 0.98

00:25:26.560 But, you know, the country shut down because it's run by terrible, absolutely useless men who golf too much.

00:25:37.020 And so you didn't make it to Paris, but I've been slammed on this book deadline. 0.94

00:25:40.940 I finally turned it in.

00:25:42.780 That feels amazing.

00:25:44.080 I also cut out some projects from my life that were really toxic.

00:25:49.080 I'm going to have time.

00:25:50.220 I'm going to have time next year.

00:25:52.440 And I'm excited about diving in.

00:25:55.260 i want to hear the things that you want to try the the hobbies you want to want to try to embrace

00:26:02.120 so things that have me excited and i'm i want to try a bunch of things even things that don't

00:26:08.280 sound particularly exciting to me but i want to try them so so mahjong was first on my list

00:26:13.640 um needlepoint is another thing that you and i've discussed the needlepoint

00:26:19.980 i am also really interested in the same way that scuba diving terrifies me i i would and this is

00:26:27.000 why i need to say these out loud so that you can hold me accountable i would love to do an improv

00:26:31.260 class i think that would be so scary and so fun i i would i would also so i'm also into watercolor

00:26:43.820 I'm into needlepoint although I've bought needlepoint kits before and I always fuck it up

00:26:50.480 and this is why I think I have to go to a class I don't actually want to teach myself things

00:26:55.460 does that make sense yes yes and and this and there is there are here's the thing that's 0.76

00:27:02.640 interesting there are women that do this well and these are the women that I actually want to get 0.99

00:27:08.520 um interviewed for our project joe there are exemplars of this i i know women they're in my

00:27:15.620 my like extended circle that do hobbies well and they are not not busy like they do have things to

00:27:24.600 do so those are the women i need to ask i need to get into their heads and say like how are you

00:27:29.420 how are you doing this how are you doing this how did you find this thing i i would also like to try

00:27:36.180 baking bread i've tried it before i'm not that good at it you know steven is really good at it

00:27:40.700 he has the good sourdough starter i'm gonna get him to give me a starter at christmas right i love

00:27:46.900 that i love that um other ideas have included i said scuba diving improv i'll do i'll do improv

00:27:56.760 though i think i'll be really great at it you'd be great yeah i think to be really honest i think

00:28:02.140 We'll both be pretty good at it. 0.90

00:28:03.400 I think we're both going to kill. 0.99

00:28:04.560 Yeah. 0.72

00:28:05.660 And community theaters.

00:28:07.420 Something else that I've been all the way pointing to.

00:28:10.640 You used to sing in a cappella groups in law school.

00:28:13.480 Did.

00:28:13.980 And I love it.

00:28:15.160 These are things that, like, why do I have to wait till my Blanche Devereaux era? 0.97

00:28:19.100 You know, where it's like, you know, the girls are going to do community theater. 0.98

00:28:22.320 Like, I just think this is something that needs to be, we live in such a hustle culture.

00:28:27.000 and to prioritize this is such a such a gift when you think about it i want my daughters

00:28:34.380 to i want my daughters they've already seen me going to mahjong i want them to do this i don't

00:28:39.640 want them to live adult lives where all they're doing is it's groundhog day of work tend to the

00:28:45.720 kids go to sleep work out in the morning you know right exactly exactly i've also been trying to get

00:28:55.160 more into rock climbing. I've dabbled in rock climbing. Mostly because I actually think that

00:28:59.780 that is an activity that Nick and I can do together really well. You know, when I was

00:29:05.400 writing How to Be Married, which is an excellent book, I reread it recently, I did do a lot of

00:29:12.240 research into novelty and newness. And it's the same. It's the same as how it can improve you and

00:29:19.980 your personal mental health, but it can also improve your relationship and your psychological

00:29:25.340 richness with your partner. So we tried salsa dancing. We tried different kinds of date nights.

00:29:32.620 Rock climbing was something that stuck for a while. We did a lot of that before we had kids.

00:29:36.480 We just did it recently on our anniversary trip out to Joshua Tree, and it was so fun to accomplish

00:29:42.520 something together and to do something just for pure joy. I would like you to try rock climbing

00:29:47.540 with me, I think that could be really fun. I would love to do rock climbing. That sounds

00:29:51.820 really fun as well. But it's also one of those hobbies that requires a lot of, like, gear and

00:30:00.080 going to a far-flung destination, much like scuba diving. I love scuba diving, but I got certified

00:30:07.240 to scuba dive when I was in my time-rich era. So when I was studying abroad in Australia right

00:30:15.080 before I went bungee jumping and skydiving. So I got certified there. I did my dives in Sydney

00:30:20.040 Harbor, which was real cool. And then I was traveling a lot. I went up to all the Great

00:30:27.340 Barrier Reef and all of the great places, dove there. And then when I was a travel editor,

00:30:31.700 I would dive everywhere I went. Then I didn't dive for 10 years until I just went to Croatia

00:30:37.940 for the Adriatic Writers Conference and had to had to relearn a lot of it. I was not good at it,

00:30:45.680 but I did remember the joy and wonder of being under the water. But again, that is a hobby that

00:30:53.640 requires a lot of stuff, a lot of travel and often a lot of money, too. Were you talking about rock

00:30:59.420 climbing? Scuba diving. Scuba diving. Yes. So that's what I was thinking. Scuba diving would

00:31:04.440 be wonderful because I have a husband who because I have a husband who is a Floridian and loves

00:31:11.240 water and loves water sports. Scuba diving could be a fun thing for you and John to do together.

00:31:18.700 Exactly. That's what I was thinking. Yeah. Much like rock climbing. OK, let's take one more break.

00:31:23.400 And when we get back, I want to talk about how to prioritize this, because, again, we've been 0.89

00:31:27.440 talking a lot about how women think that this is something extra or something extraneous, like that

00:31:32.880 we just, we can't figure out how to add it in. And I want to talk a little bit about how we can do

00:31:39.020 that, how we can prioritize finding these things that do bring us joy.

00:32:02.880 i'm i'm also i found myself really interested in what other cultures do in terms of oh yeah

00:32:17.320 tell me tell me about that like what have you learned about that well i'm digging in i'm

00:32:21.740 digging into it now and i think that's part of travel just just getting curious there because

00:32:27.320 Because we, you know, we have a work culture, right? I mean, the U.S., we have this frenetic pace culturally. And I wonder what women, you know, who are busy, not, you know, old, old grannies, women who are busy do for, for personal fulfillment, for their passionate pursuits.

00:32:54.260 in, like, Spain, where just the cadence of the day is different when it comes to work 0.90

00:33:00.220 in France, in different areas of the world.

00:33:04.040 I'm just really curious about it.

00:33:06.220 Yeah, no, I mean, that's something that I want us to dive into in this project.

00:33:10.600 I've been thinking about that a lot as well, because when I was just in Paris, I saw a

00:33:18.120 lot of men playing patanque.

00:33:20.120 What is this?

00:33:21.120 I've never heard of it.

00:33:21.760 It's kind of like bocce ball, you know, where it's one of those games where you throw a ball and then you try to get a ball closer to the other balls and you knock balls.

00:33:31.220 It's a game involving balls.

00:33:33.240 Yes, lots of balls. 0.99

00:33:34.460 Men, men, lots. 0.99

00:33:35.720 Lots of balls, like in often in a park, but not a big park. 0.53

00:33:40.360 You can play it in like an empty lot.

00:33:42.960 So I saw a lot of people in Paris, but almost all of them older men playing petanque.

00:33:48.960 Patanque. My editor, Maya's husband, owns a very cool Patanque bar, Patanque club in Brooklyn.

00:33:57.620 And so and they go to Patanque tournaments. They go like they travel for Patanque. So I would like

00:34:03.400 us to try Patanque. So it sounds fabulous. Right. But again, again, it's not like I saw women our

00:34:10.440 age playing. I saw the same old men that would probably be playing golf or like when I'm in

00:34:16.220 Sicily, there's this like little, little men's club in every single town. There's one in

00:34:22.920 Caltabalota where Sicilian inheritance is set. And the men gather there, the older men gather 0.94

00:34:29.480 there almost every day and they play cards or they play dominoes. But again, I'm always seeing

00:34:36.740 the men doing it and not the women. So I think it'll be very curious to travel around and do

00:34:41.800 interviews with different cultures and be like what are the women doing just for fun yeah and 0.96

00:34:48.560 I bet you they're doing a lot of things because it's not required necessarily but I'm imagining 0.99

00:34:56.660 I'm wondering what those what those ladies in Cal Tabalota were doing while their husbands were 1.00

00:35:02.100 were playing cards like are they are they cooking for the day and they might be they might be cooking 1.00

00:35:07.280 they might be cooking for the day so but cooking could cooking go either way so we talked about 1.00

00:35:11.380 the intrinsic and extrinsic i think that a lot of women would be like well cooking and baking is my

00:35:16.860 hobby but are you doing that because you love it are you doing that to feed your family and i think

00:35:21.060 that that is a yet another line that can get muddied exactly that's precisely it and i think

00:35:25.880 it all depends on whether you enjoy it i don't enjoy cooking like i do enjoy baking and when i

00:35:35.780 cook, it's because the children need to eat. And that's why I do it. I don't really do it for the

00:35:41.540 joy of cooking and I'm not really good at it. So I think it all comes down to, um, you know,

00:35:47.400 there could be a person who really loves, that's where, so marathons, marathons are, are really

00:35:54.560 nuanced and complex there. Right. Cause that's like it, that one, one, um, by-product of running

00:36:01.080 a marathon is, of course, you're you're getting fit. But if there's a if there's an intrinsic

00:36:06.400 motivation for it, if you're doing this marathon because, you know, you are you are doing it in

00:36:13.380 honor of someone who passed and it's like the it's the breast cancer or 10K or something like

00:36:19.080 that, it's it's a different motivation. So I think that it's very similar to the cooking. It's like,

00:36:26.160 are you are you actually enjoying the process of cooking? Are you enjoying the spices and

00:36:30.160 getting your hands dirty or are you doing it because um you have to feed people are you running

00:36:35.320 the marathon because you want to honor your aunt who passed away and you love being outside and you

00:36:40.880 love the fall crisp air in boston for the boston marathon or are you doing it because your doctor

00:36:45.640 told you you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and you need to get fit and i think

00:36:51.960 it's those motivations that get really complicated to try to parse all of those because we have lots

00:36:57.160 of different reasons for doing lots of different things so yeah I mean for a while I was running

00:37:02.400 half marathons um and different races Nick and I do do triathlons together which I think is just

00:37:10.360 for pure it's for it's not for the joy of like I do I do like the races because we go to fun places

00:37:16.720 and stuff this another thing that I'm finding hard to separate from this is if you asked me

00:37:22.200 what hobby i do have that i love it's travel right like i love travel like travel brings me so much

00:37:27.860 like psychological richness and newness and joy so and it's something that i get to do for work

00:37:33.420 right so i just adore it but again it's also often for work so where like i think that this

00:37:43.140 gets complicated it does and there's sometimes there's no there's a there's no answer where

00:37:49.520 it's like, yes, this is a hobby. And yes, this is an interest. And this is not a hobby. It really

00:37:55.040 is complex. And I think what we're asking women, Jo, is just to explore it and just to see that

00:38:00.900 there's a distinction there. Yeah, it's not that you have to have, you know, and that's something

00:38:05.820 I do want to look into, like how many hobbies might one need to reach a particular threshold

00:38:12.500 of well-being. That's also interesting to me. Yeah, I'm thinking it's just going to be one

00:38:17.460 hobby yeah and i think that in this project that we're doing of trying out a bunch like i said

00:38:23.880 before seeing what sticks i think is is going to be really fun we'll see welcome welcome to our

00:38:31.000 adventure year people welcome it's going to be wild and wacky and wonderful and i'm excited to

00:38:37.740 be doing it with you jackie cascarano yes you too joe piaz this is fun this is fun all right well

00:38:44.440 we want suggestions actually so please please please email me joe at influentialmedia.biz or

00:38:51.820 dm me on the over the influence sub stack and tell us about your hobbies i'm going to write a

00:38:57.160 whole newsletter about this i'll open up a thread about it too and i want to hear i want to hear the

00:39:02.180 things that bring you joy that are absolutely probably not productive in your life but that

00:39:07.900 bring you joy that you love doing and also also i want to hear how you got into them because i'm

00:39:12.000 just so curious about the pathway to those hobbies and i also want to draw a distinction

00:39:19.180 and i'm not sure if i said it before but i'll say it again between an interest and a hobby

00:39:23.460 so like an interest we all have interests right we all have like politics or interior design or

00:39:29.720 birds because i'm in my mid-40s now oh well i love birds i i do i mean i'm i'm not a master

00:39:37.600 bird but here's the distinction so if you're scrolling on instagram on interior design

00:39:44.280 accounts that's an interest i don't think that's a hobby it's actually clover i'm gonna punt you

00:39:50.880 into the next yard if you are here's what i'm i laugh here me looking out the window at the

00:39:59.920 birds is one thing that me getting my binoculars out and getting my bird book out and tabbing my

00:40:09.040 bird book this is a hobby getting my bird journal going outside into nature that's different than

00:40:17.440 like I like interior design well what do you do oh I look at interior design Instagram accounts

00:40:22.800 well you know go go out and do an activity related to interior design that's where you're

00:40:29.060 going to get all reap all the well-being benefits if that makes sense totally i would i would count

00:40:34.500 my merlin app as hobby yes i love my merlin app i love my merlin app do you know what i got on

00:40:41.420 merlin last week i got a eurasian magpie a magpie you see those in other countries you see them

00:40:49.860 and they're different in in europe the eurasian one had this bright like a royal blue on their

00:40:56.660 rings and I saw I had royal blue on their wings and I saw them uh in in the graveyard where Theo

00:41:03.180 and Vincent van Gogh's graves were oh my gosh I know but then I made a Merlin tag saying Theo

00:41:10.200 and Vincent van Gogh's graves I'm very excited my kids favorite thing though is tagging pigeons

00:41:15.880 in different cities around the world and they're like yep same pigeon same pigeon I love it I've

00:41:22.260 been i've identified this white-throated spare it's a sparrow it's not a really interesting

00:41:27.200 bird but she's he or she sings the most beautiful song it's old sam peabody it's like

00:41:33.620 it's really cute and i keep on hearing the same dude sing this song to me when i go on my morning

00:41:42.100 walks and it's just so so lovely yeah i think birds i think birds are birds are now a shared

00:41:47.860 hobby when we could go on a birding trip love to go on a birding trip do you know i went to

00:41:52.620 clover when i was at blackberry farm i tried to go on a birding hike and like the birding guy

00:42:01.400 was unavailable i mean we i think we should go somewhere to bird i would love to bird i'd love

00:42:07.120 to bird with you let's go bird this is bird let's bird let's bird and that is all we have for today

00:42:12.080 guys thank you for joining in send us your send us your hobbies and your pastimes and your passions

00:42:16.640 We would love to hear from you, and we're very excited for you to come on the Adventure Year with us.

00:42:46.640 you matched on hinge you're vibing then her energy completely changes what do you do

00:43:02.000 i'm raven smith and i wrote and read a real love story about this exact

00:43:06.520 sitch listen to the free audiobook now

00:43:16.640 Thank you.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - November 20, 2025

Do I Need a Hobby？

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