Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - November 23, 2025


Sunday Nice Things： Uncover

Topics
Allison Mack interview competition with women EM sessions
Do I Need a Hobby？ All the London Recommendations with Three Feral Kids

Episode Stats


Length

45 minutes

Words per minute

169.87

Word count

7,688

Sentence count

540

Harmful content

Misogyny

37

sentences flagged

Toxicity

15

sentences flagged

Hate speech

8

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 You want to impress them on a first date, but also play it cool. So what do you do?
00:00:06.700 I'm Rufy Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinged couple that navigated
00:00:11.420 exactly that. Listen to the free audiobook now.
00:00:21.260 Hey y'all, Jo here, and welcome to Sunday Nice Things.
00:00:25.420 Today I have a show that I've really been enjoying to drop in your feeds.
00:00:29.880 This is from the new season of the podcast Uncover.
00:00:33.620 You may think you know the NXIVM story.
00:00:36.520 You know, the secretive self-help empire.
00:00:38.960 It had all those really juicy sex cult headlines.
00:00:42.140 You may even think you know the story of the downfall of its leader, Keith Raniere.
00:00:46.880 But the most famous woman at the center of this story has remained largely silent.
00:00:52.180 Allison after NXIVM tells the story of Allison Mack,
00:00:55.960 former Smallville actress, high-ranking NXIVM member, and convicted felon.
00:01:01.180 With exclusive access following her release from prison,
00:01:04.580 this series traces her astonishing path from Smallville fame to NXIVM's inner circle.
00:01:10.820 And then it also gets into her effort to rebuild her life after the wreckage.
00:01:15.560 Through raw interviews with those who knew her before, during, and after NXIVM,
00:01:19.580 the show dives deep into the gray zones of influence, accountability, and redemption. 0.53
00:01:25.280 In this episode, Allison Mack heads to court to be sentenced. When the judge hands down his 0.59
00:01:30.660 sentence, three years in federal prison, Allison must begin to unravel the beliefs she once
00:01:35.940 evangelized, parsing what was true and what was manipulation. If you like this show, you can find
00:01:43.200 Allison after NXIVM by searching for Uncover wherever you get your podcasts. Enjoy.
00:01:49.580 A famous actress. A sex cult. A reckoning. You may think you know the NXIVM story. The secretive 0.78
00:01:59.840 self-help empire. The sex cult headlines. The downfall of its leader, Keith Raniere. But the
00:02:04.980 most famous woman at the center of the story has remained silent. Until now. Allison after NXIVM
00:02:11.000 tells the story of Allison Mack, former Smallville actress, high-ranking NXIVM member, and convicted
00:02:17.020 felon. With exclusive access following her release from prison, this series traces Alison's
00:02:22.460 astonishing path from Smallville fame to NXIVM's inner circle, and her effort to rebuild a life
00:02:28.760 in the wreckage. I'm Natalie Robamed, and I'm an award-winning writer, producer, and the host of
00:02:34.400 Alison after NXIVM. Through raw interviews and revealing conversations with those who knew her
00:02:39.180 before, during, and after NXIVM, this season dives deep into the gray zones of influence,
00:02:44.840 accountability, and redemption. Now, here's the first episode of Alison After NXIVM. Have a listen.
00:02:59.720 Campsite Media.
00:03:06.080 It's a warm, muggy day in New York City in June 2021, the kind of summer day when the air feels
00:03:13.680 oppressively heavy, as if it's about to smother you. And for Alison Mack, the day could not get
00:03:20.560 any heavier. Alison is a famous actress, but she's famous for something else now,
00:03:27.940 for being prominent in one of the most devastating cults in contemporary history.
00:03:32.900 She spent 12 long years in that cult. And now she's sitting in the back of a car that's driving
00:03:39.820 towards a Brooklyn courthouse.
00:03:42.300 She's wearing a black dress
00:03:43.660 that she's bought specifically for the court date.
00:03:46.680 Her green eyes gaze ahead at what's to come.
00:03:50.000 The culture of my family is like,
00:03:52.640 we don't dwell on what bad things could happen.
00:03:55.920 We just believe that it's going to be okay.
00:03:58.380 And so all the while leading up to my sentence,
00:04:00.460 it was like, it's going to be okay.
00:04:02.500 It's going to be okay.
00:04:03.560 It's going to work out.
00:04:04.640 It's going to be okay.
00:04:05.440 Allison is here because of her role in NXIVM, the infamous sex cult run by Keith Raniere.
00:04:14.260 Of all the people who've become tangled up in NXIVM, she's the most famous of the bunch.
00:04:20.100 The media attention on this case, and Allison in particular, has been fierce.
00:04:25.700 My mom and my friend Tina rode in the car with me, with my attorneys.
00:04:29.880 and we got there and we parked in a place that was not out in front
00:04:33.860 so that we could get a little bit of distance on the paparazzi
00:04:36.420 before they came to us.
00:04:39.240 From the car, she sees the photographers waiting for her.
00:04:43.060 Everyone has covered this case, it's international news
00:04:46.200 and a lot of the reporters are focused on Alison, the TV star.
00:04:50.920 She was on The CW for over a decade on the popular show Smallville.
00:04:56.120 She played Clark Kent's best friend. 0.96
00:04:59.000 Now she's fallen back to earth. 0.99
00:05:01.320 She's tabloid chum. 1.00
00:05:03.280 She's a target. 0.99
00:05:06.400 Tina was on one side, my mom was on the other, 0.81
00:05:08.520 and my attorneys were in front of us.
00:05:10.360 And my friend Tina was singing a song to me, like a hymn.
00:05:13.840 Tina is singing a nice choral song in her ear,
00:05:17.160 trying to calm her down.
00:05:18.840 This is something Allison's friends have been doing
00:05:21.100 to ground her for this day.
00:05:23.940 My friend Becca had sung me a song the day before.
00:05:26.500 They put her hand on my heart, and it was a song that was talking about how God is in the waiting.
00:05:31.600 God is in the moments when you, um, are just waiting, you know?
00:05:38.060 But the songs are no use.
00:05:40.120 As soon as Allison gets out of the car, onto the sidewalk, she's like a magnet, and the photographers are metal.
00:05:46.640 And then, like, the paparazzi just, like, pfft.
00:05:49.700 You know, he came around us, and he couldn't move.
00:05:52.400 They stick to her, bearing down, moving as she moves,
00:05:56.320 pushing towards the courthouse as one big mass. 0.71
00:05:59.480 Allison gets jostled. Her hair swings forward.
00:06:02.560 I just put my head down and was, like, trying to listen to Tina, you know,
00:06:06.220 and, like, feel my mom.
00:06:07.940 And, like, my attorneys were like, you guys have to let us move.
00:06:10.620 Eventually, they push through.
00:06:14.080 Allison enters the courtroom with her mom and older brother.
00:06:17.440 Inside, the judge sits behind a tall wooden bench.
00:06:20.940 He's got white hair and wears round, rimless glasses
00:06:23.580 that mirror the roundness of his face.
00:06:26.300 He's here to sentence Alison for her crimes.
00:06:29.680 I had, like, 15 people sitting behind me
00:06:32.500 in my sentencing hearing to support me, you know?
00:06:35.200 I had 14 letters of recommendation from different people,
00:06:38.720 professors from my college, my pastor, the church I was going to.
00:06:43.100 Alison herself had written two letters to the judge
00:06:45.600 explaining her actions.
00:06:47.060 There was this rallying sense of, like,
00:06:49.800 we're going to be able to convince the judge
00:06:51.640 that she's not worthy of incarceration.
00:06:55.320 I mean, my therapist, I think, wrote a letter that said that.
00:06:58.240 She hopes that she will receive no time.
00:07:00.880 She's cooperated with prosecutors,
00:07:02.660 and other defendants in the case have received probation.
00:07:06.900 But Allison's aren't the only letters.
00:07:10.300 Before the judge sentences her,
00:07:11.960 he must also hear victim impact statements,
00:07:15.280 letters from people Allison has hurt.
00:07:17.360 I was physically injured, and it's a scar that is very difficult to erase.
00:07:21.380 Allison criticized everything about me.
00:07:23.160 The cruelty of that abuse of power and trust will be with me.
00:07:26.200 I have never felt so vulnerable and exposed.
00:07:32.120 One victim is here to read her statement in person.
00:07:36.220 She gets up. 1.00
00:07:37.580 She's pretty, with long brown hair and almond brown eyes.
00:07:41.160 She starts reading her letter directly to Allison.
00:07:44.060 she's like i hope you rot in a cell for a long time and while you're sitting at home in your 1.00
00:07:51.840 comfortable house putting on lipstick you have to know that you destroyed lives and you're a monster 1.00
00:07:58.320 and very like very angry you know allison sits stone-faced in the courtroom holding back tears 0.95
00:08:05.140 i think that i was thinking and i still was thinking about like oh my god my poor brother
00:08:10.480 you know behind me like having to hear this about his sister you know like my poor mom like
00:08:18.160 I'm so sorry you guys you know just like it was more like but I can take it like you know but like 0.99
00:08:26.960 fuck you guys like I'm so sorry you know so I think that was hard like just 0.99
00:08:32.120 I don't see myself as innocent you know and they were 1.00
00:08:37.940 allison tries to keep it together she stands stock still taking it in and after the victim
00:08:47.160 statements the judge reads his 10-page decision he pointed to the fact that i seemed callous and
00:08:54.060 laughed at people's pain and led people in negative directions and that that was not
00:08:59.600 acceptable and he said you you capitalized on your celebrity yeah do you think that's fair
00:09:05.400 I think that I capitalized on the things I had.
00:09:10.180 And so the success I had as an actor, I think I did capitalize on that.
00:09:13.900 Yeah.
00:09:14.420 And it was a power tool that I had to get people to do what I wanted.
00:09:19.120 He says you were an essential accomplice.
00:09:21.640 Do you think that's fair?
00:09:23.700 I think that I was very effective in moving Keith's vision forward.
00:09:28.280 And because of that effectiveness,
00:09:30.100 the judge says Allison must serve three years in federal prison.
00:09:35.400 The former Smallville actress pleaded guilty to racketeering and racketeering conspiracy charges, acknowledging she manipulated women into becoming sex slaves for Keith Raniere, NXIVM's leader.
00:09:46.700 Allison led women to be branded with Keith Raniere's initials on the flesh of their bodies.
00:09:52.260 She was a, quote, master, overseeing women who were her slaves. 0.99
00:09:57.740 She had sex with Keith daily. 0.99
00:10:00.400 She had threesomes with another member who was also having sex with him. 0.98
00:10:05.340 She told women inside the cult that they would reach enlightenment
00:10:08.220 if they did as she did, and developed a relationship with Keith.
00:10:13.320 For this, she has been portrayed as a villain,
00:10:16.540 as the person who acted as a pimp for Keith.
00:10:19.640 To some, she appeared to have been a top lieutenant.
00:10:24.020 But who is Alison Mack, really?
00:10:26.500 Is she a victim, or someone who victimized others?
00:10:34.660 From Campsite Media and CBC, this is Alison after NXIVM, from CBC's Uncover.
00:10:45.300 I'm Natalie Robamed. This is episode one. It started in Vancouver.
00:10:55.780 I'm driving down the freeway from my house in L.A. to the satellite city of Long Beach, California.
00:11:02.220 It's the day after Christmas in Southern California,
00:11:05.180 which means it's light jacket weather.
00:11:07.920 Where I grew up, back in Dubai, with my British mom,
00:11:11.060 I'd be lolling on the couch making leftover turkey sandwiches.
00:11:14.560 But not on this day.
00:11:16.340 Because I'm on my way to interview Alison Mack.
00:11:20.180 I'm feeling nervous.
00:11:21.720 I've met Alison a few times, but this is our first full interview.
00:11:25.960 And I'm worried.
00:11:26.640 I still don't know whether I can fully trust her.
00:11:31.520 The highway gives way to views of the sea, where oil rigs dot the horizon.
00:11:37.460 Alison lives here, down by the shore of the Pacific Ocean.
00:11:41.300 I park and walk into the hotel where I've arranged to meet my producing partner on this project, Vanessa Gregoriadis.
00:11:48.100 Hello, good morning.
00:11:51.620 Here we are at the Grand Hotel lobby.
00:11:55.020 Vanessa has covered NXIVM for just under a decade.
00:11:57.840 We work together a lot, but we live on opposite coasts,
00:12:00.660 so it's always nice to see each other in person.
00:12:02.840 I love that. Oh, thank you.
00:12:05.160 We're both kind of anxious, chattering to fill the time.
00:12:08.500 We've been turned on to this story by Stephen Belber,
00:12:11.420 a playwright, director, and screenwriter.
00:12:14.300 Stephen has done a lot of projects about convicts,
00:12:17.240 and he thinks Alison has a story to tell.
00:12:20.260 So he brought us on board.
00:12:23.020 Vanessa also has some experience with Alison Mack.
00:12:25.860 She actually wrote a story about NXIVM back in 2018,
00:12:29.140 a story in which Alison lied to her.
00:12:32.160 More on that later.
00:12:34.000 We don't know which Alison we're going to get today.
00:12:36.560 Will she tell the truth?
00:12:37.940 We don't have much time to wonder.
00:12:40.280 Because right on the dot, at 9 a.m., Alison arrives.
00:12:44.260 Hi. How are you?
00:12:46.820 Hello.
00:12:47.760 It's good to see you.
00:12:49.160 Alison has not spoken publicly since her incarceration.
00:12:53.140 She's never told her story in a magazine or a book or a documentary.
00:12:58.600 She's had lots of offers, but always said no, until now.
00:13:03.000 She wants to tell her story in podcast form because she loves podcasts
00:13:06.420 and because she's no longer comfortable in front of cameras like she used to be.
00:13:11.040 How are you guys' holidays?
00:13:12.660 They were good. I mean, I...
00:13:14.080 I don't know if you're going to have kids with you or where.
00:13:15.860 Today, she's wearing a puffer vest, blue plaid shirt, black leopard print leggings,
00:13:20.280 Doc Marten boots, and thick socks.
00:13:23.140 Her hair is in a messy ponytail,
00:13:25.140 with one of those curly hair ties
00:13:26.800 that don't tangle your hair at night.
00:13:29.080 She's smiling, her face beaming as she greets us.
00:13:32.040 She's confident. She's turning it on.
00:13:34.660 And we're being maybe overly friendly, too.
00:13:37.620 Everyone seems nervous.
00:13:39.360 She talks about her dogs.
00:13:40.720 And they start wrestling, like, right underneath.
00:13:43.600 I'm like, I'm so sorry.
00:13:45.180 I really wanted this to be focused and serious
00:13:47.640 and not a proud dog's face.
00:13:49.520 I have to say, she appears younger than her 43 years. 0.68
00:13:53.180 Looking at her, you would never guess that she was fresh off years in prison
00:13:56.660 and three and a half years on house arrest.
00:13:59.620 But that's how most scars are.
00:14:02.160 You can't see them fully clothed.
00:14:07.040 I have so many questions I want to ask.
00:14:09.840 But as we settle in a hotel room, sitting opposite each other,
00:14:13.140 the quiet thrum of the street below,
00:14:15.160 I decide to start at the beginning.
00:14:18.120 The beginning of her life.
00:14:20.520 So I was born in Europe, in northern Germany.
00:14:24.740 My dad was an opera singer. He's retired now.
00:14:27.100 But he was singing in the opera houses over there.
00:14:29.820 And then we moved to Southern California.
00:14:32.380 My mom was from Southern California and I think was just, like, homesick for her parents for sunshine and beach.
00:14:39.520 Northern Germany doesn't really have a lot of that.
00:14:41.240 Allison moved back to Long Beach at two years old
00:14:45.860 and was raised in an artistic household
00:14:48.020 just a few miles from where we are now
00:14:49.920 with her musician dad and Montessori school mom teacher.
00:14:54.080 She had one older brother and later on a much younger sister.
00:14:58.460 My brother is 16 months older than I am,
00:15:00.960 but my brother is very shy and introverted.
00:15:04.520 When I was born, my brother would, like, push me in front of him
00:15:07.640 to talk, like, on our behalf, you know?
00:15:09.820 Like, I was very willing to be center of attention,
00:15:13.280 and he was very willing to let me be the center of attention.
00:15:17.160 For a young girl who was willing to be the center of attention,
00:15:20.620 there were a lot of opportunities in Hollywood,
00:15:23.400 just an hour or so away. 0.87
00:15:25.820 Alison got into acting.
00:15:27.900 The first commercial I did was a German chocolate commercial,
00:15:30.680 and they wouldn't let me eat the chocolate.
00:15:32.240 I had to spit the chocolate out after every take
00:15:34.200 because they didn't want me to get sick.
00:15:36.160 And I remember being like, oh, that's bunk.
00:15:38.300 because I had to, you know, do multiple takes
00:15:40.580 from multiple angles and things like that, yeah.
00:15:43.960 I can just picture Allison, four years old,
00:15:46.940 putting the chocolate in her mouth, chewing,
00:15:49.520 wanting so badly to eat this delicious treat
00:15:51.980 that every kid loves,
00:15:53.460 and then having someone yell cut
00:15:55.040 and having to use all her willpower to spit it out
00:15:58.060 over and over and over again.
00:16:01.740 But she did it, and she was good at it.
00:16:04.660 I started going to acting class when I was five,
00:16:07.220 And I didn't know how to read yet,
00:16:08.820 so a lot of my memorization was, like, auditory.
00:16:12.160 My mom would read it to me and I would repeat it back.
00:16:14.820 Allison liked performing, but it was more than that.
00:16:17.720 I was from birth, like, I want you to be happy with me all the time, you know?
00:16:23.760 And I think even before I started acting, I was like,
00:16:27.480 what do you want me to do?
00:16:28.160 Okay, I'll do that.
00:16:29.220 Where do you want me to go?
00:16:29.940 Okay, I'll go there, you know?
00:16:31.300 Like, I just was like, I was that kind of constitution.
00:16:35.820 For Alison, this behavior carried on to set,
00:16:38.660 where she gained a reputation as a director's actor,
00:16:42.080 someone who would do whatever the director wanted
00:16:44.180 and help get the rest of the cast in line.
00:16:47.100 The whole value of me as a human being
00:16:49.260 was around being an actor and being a good actor.
00:16:52.820 And I was special at school because I was a good actor.
00:16:55.760 And then I also, like, conflated love with acting and being good, you know.
00:17:02.060 And her peers, the girls she should have been playing dress up 0.94
00:17:04.980 and making mud pies with, they were competition.
00:17:08.860 Alison says she would walk into a room
00:17:10.660 and instantly take stock of everyone else,
00:17:13.300 placing herself in a hierarchy among them.
00:17:15.960 That's automatically what you do
00:17:17.320 when you walk into an audition room.
00:17:18.780 Like, you look around at all the girls
00:17:20.500 that are in the audition and say, 0.99
00:17:21.640 oh, I know that girl because I tested with her
00:17:23.220 three years ago for that thing, so I know she's good.
00:17:25.360 And so then there's this weird, like,
00:17:27.660 you're pitted against each other
00:17:29.260 and you're competing with each other constantly.
00:17:32.000 And the competition Alison experienced at those auditions?
00:17:34.980 She felt it at home, too.
00:17:37.560 My sister was born when I was nine and a half,
00:17:39.660 and that was complicated for me
00:17:42.880 because I was the little girl
00:17:45.500 and I was the center of the universe in my family's home.
00:17:48.380 And then my sister was born and I was like,
00:17:50.400 who is this, you know, taking my spot?
00:17:53.480 And I was angry and jealous
00:17:55.320 and I didn't know where to put those feelings.
00:17:59.180 And those feelings contradicted the perception
00:18:03.400 that I had in the world where people always looked at me
00:18:06.000 and were like, oh, she's such a nice girl and she's so sweet.
00:18:08.240 And I was always like, the good girl in school and la, la, la.
00:18:10.600 And then I had these, like, dark feelings about my sister.
00:18:16.880 Competition with other women would come to haunt her. 1.00
00:18:19.940 And Alison's time as a young actress
00:18:21.940 left her feeling older than she was.
00:18:24.760 At the time, I didn't feel like I was 14.
00:18:27.580 I didn't feel like I was a kid.
00:18:29.580 Before long, Alison moved to L.A.
00:18:31.660 I moved out of my parents' house when I was 16
00:18:33.920 because I got a TV show with Chris Evans, actually,
00:18:36.480 called The Opposite Sex.
00:18:38.160 Hey, Kate.
00:18:38.980 Okay, this isn't for class.
00:18:40.100 You're, like, reading for pleasure.
00:18:41.580 In it, Alison played a high school nerd named Kate.
00:18:44.840 Like most teen TV shows from the time, 0.97
00:18:47.000 the nerd was also incredibly gorgeous.
00:18:49.420 So I, like, run these groups, and I lead the discussions.
00:18:52.680 It's just some people, some lawyers, some professors,
00:18:56.900 a couple of writers.
00:18:57.880 Wait.
00:18:58.600 Her on-screen character was precocious,
00:19:00.500 And so was she.
00:19:02.140 She was only 16, had graduated high school early,
00:19:05.820 and was living in L.A. without her parents.
00:19:09.300 She says that was intentional.
00:19:12.680 I really distanced myself from my family.
00:19:15.940 My parents was kind of going through, like, individuation
00:19:18.160 and having a hard time with my mom's dependence on me
00:19:20.720 and just kind of angry, a teenager, you know,
00:19:24.680 with too much money and freedom, you know.
00:19:27.500 But the show didn't last.
00:19:28.860 We got canceled.
00:19:30.500 which is what happens to most shows.
00:19:32.340 And my skin started to break out because I was a teenager.
00:19:36.220 And I had makeup artists tell me I should go on Accutane.
00:19:39.460 Accutane is a powerful prescription used to treat acne that can have side effects.
00:19:44.100 So I went on Accutane, which we now know causes severe depression.
00:19:48.440 And I plummeted, like, I was so depressed.
00:19:51.720 My emotions were all messed up.
00:19:54.000 And I'm newly living on my own in L.A.
00:19:56.400 and I had gained weight and, like, it was just, I wasn't working.
00:20:01.920 By the time she turned 18, during this low period,
00:20:05.540 Alison encountered the man who would go on to become her first boyfriend,
00:20:09.620 a rocker she met at the famous L.A. bar, The Viper Room.
00:20:13.520 She'd actually been planning to leave L.A.
00:20:15.420 and go study at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in London,
00:20:18.940 a serious drama school.
00:20:20.600 But then she met this guy
00:20:21.960 and got an audition for a show called Smallville.
00:20:25.260 Yeah, so I went in and I read for them and David Nutter, who was our director, who cast the show, and I got the part.
00:20:34.580 Allison was cast as Chloe Sullivan, another nerdy girl next door.
00:20:38.800 I always got the smart girls, and I think part of that was because of my, like, weird fear of sexuality.
00:20:44.440 Like, I never felt comfortable or confident being, like, the ingenue girl.
00:20:49.040 So I was always sort of like the His Girl Friday, the smart, quirky, funny, quit sidekick.
00:20:55.000 The show was filmed in Vancouver,
00:20:56.960 so Alison upped and moved to Hollywood North.
00:20:59.780 And right away, it was a fantasy.
00:21:02.040 Going to set every day, doing what she loved to do,
00:21:05.000 being young in a beautiful new city
00:21:06.760 with a group of cool friends.
00:21:08.980 This was like 2000.
00:21:10.440 It was when Smallville premiered.
00:21:12.300 So we didn't have social media.
00:21:13.820 We were just so homey
00:21:15.860 and continued to be that way
00:21:18.440 throughout the whole process of the show.
00:21:20.580 None of us ever got caught in the fame bubble
00:21:23.320 or very conscious of our theme.
00:21:25.800 Alison didn't understand she was famous, 1.00
00:21:27.980 and she also didn't understand money.
00:21:30.360 She was just 19 when the show started airing.
00:21:33.200 And I was making $40,000 a week out of the gate.
00:21:36.760 I had a financial person that took care of all my money,
00:21:39.380 a business manager,
00:21:40.160 and I didn't want to know about anything.
00:21:43.040 And so they didn't tell me about anything.
00:21:45.240 She's got a dream job, a rock star boyfriend, 0.62
00:21:48.180 more money than she knows what to do with.
00:21:50.340 But actually, not everything was quite as dreamy with the boyfriend,
00:21:54.620 who Alison does not want to identify.
00:21:57.020 So I was living in Vancouver and he was living in L.A.
00:22:00.780 And he was spending money so fast.
00:22:03.560 Like, he was spending so much of the money that I was making.
00:22:06.020 But it was, like, easier for me to just, like, give him a credit card and deal
00:22:11.880 than it was for me to stand up to him,
00:22:14.340 because standing up to him would turn into, like,
00:22:16.840 these big, violent, name-calling, horrible things. 0.88
00:22:23.180 I ask Allison if he hit her.
00:22:25.780 Not until the very end of the relationship,
00:22:28.680 but he hit himself, you know, and he would, like, cut his own face.
00:22:32.560 He would say, like, look at what you're making me do,
00:22:34.100 and chop up his own face and things like that,
00:22:38.200 horrible, gnarly things. 0.89
00:22:40.320 And that was the first time that I got someone's initials burned into my body.
00:22:45.960 I got his initial tattooed on my chest when I was 20.
00:22:49.980 He had gotten a big A tattooed on his chest.
00:22:54.080 And then it was like, if you loved me, you would get the same thing.
00:22:57.960 If you loved me, you would do this.
00:22:59.440 And so then to prove to him, you know, my love for him,
00:23:04.020 to try and make it so that he didn't hurt himself again, you know,
00:23:08.680 I got tattooed on my chest and all the while I'm on Smallville you know so it's like it was crazy
00:23:16.140 like when I'll never forget one time I mean it's so embarrassing because like the crew
00:23:21.420 the casting crew of Smallville saw me just like I'm such a mess you know but um all the while
00:23:29.560 trying to like keep it together you know like be perfect on camera but I will never forget one
00:23:38.420 time we were doing a scene i was doing a scene with tom and they were setting up for my close-up
00:23:42.280 tom welling the actor who played clark kent and um i walked away and i was on the phone she's taking
00:23:49.240 a call from her boyfriend and he was just railing on me for something just calling me all kinds of
00:23:57.040 names and saying all these horrible things about me to me and i was just like okay okay you know
00:24:03.920 just like trying to calm him down and taking it.
00:24:06.500 And the AD was like, Alison, we're ready for you.
00:24:09.000 We're ready for you.
00:24:09.700 And I was like, okay, I have to go.
00:24:11.000 We're ready for you, Alison.
00:24:12.060 We're waiting for you.
00:24:12.660 I was like, okay, I have to go.
00:24:13.820 And I hung up the phone and I walked onto set.
00:24:16.300 And they said rolling, you know, as I was walking onto set.
00:24:20.460 And the director said action.
00:24:21.680 And I took a deep breath and I looked at Tom.
00:24:25.020 And I just lost it.
00:24:27.900 And I said my lines, you know.
00:24:30.040 I mean, like I was still able to, like, perform the dialogue,
00:24:33.340 but like tears are streaming down my face and they said cut you know and the cameraman like
00:24:39.320 looked around at me and he was like are you okay and I was like yeah I'm good I was like was that
00:24:43.300 too much emotion did you want me to do something less because that was too strong and they were
00:24:47.980 like yeah maybe it was a little too much for the scene and I was like okay cool let's do it again
00:24:51.580 I can I can pull it back you know and it was like I just like wrapped it into like what I was doing
00:24:57.440 because that's just what you do you know when the embarrassing thing is like everybody knew
00:25:04.780 that like I was in a fucked up situation and that it wasn't healthy and that I wasn't well
00:25:10.060 and whatever but one of the people that was closest to me was like Allison like we love you
00:25:17.260 and you need to be with somebody that lifts you up and he said that's all I'm going to say you know
00:25:23.340 so it took three years for me to get up from under that one
00:25:28.440 it would take her 12 years to get away from the next man whose initials she got inscribed on her 0.99
00:25:36.700 but before then she would have hurt a lot more people than just herself
00:25:53.340 so while allison was living in vancouver she developed a really close friendship with another
00:26:02.940 cast member on smallville kristen crook allison was clark kent's best friend in this modern take
00:26:09.040 on that very american story of superman and kristen played clark kent's love interest on the show
00:26:14.820 that's the thing about clark kent he's not always there when you want him
00:26:18.640 but he's always there when you need him. 0.95
00:26:22.120 Where Alison was the petite, perky blonde,
00:26:24.860 Kristen was almost model beautiful. 1.00
00:26:27.460 She's got these gorgeous light brown eyes 1.00
00:26:29.500 and high, high cheekbones,
00:26:30.980 and she's actually from Vancouver herself.
00:26:33.820 But she and Alison started going far away
00:26:36.100 from Vancouver together,
00:26:37.860 taking exotic trips around the world.
00:26:40.720 We went to Syria and Turkey together.
00:26:42.440 We went to Mongolia together.
00:26:43.580 We went to Paris, and we had so much fun,
00:26:46.160 and that became kind of like a thing.
00:26:47.540 Like, we went to Paris multiple times together and just shopped and saw art and sat on the top of the Pompidou and had brosé and, like, just, like, lived this kind of, like, dream thing.
00:26:58.340 And we both were at the point where we were 25.
00:27:01.040 We were in New York City together.
00:27:02.120 It was our break.
00:27:02.920 And we had rented an apartment in the same building in the West Village.
00:27:07.760 And we both were like, why do we both, why do we feel so unsatisfied?
00:27:12.840 Like, we both had beautiful boyfriends and all the things.
00:27:15.480 and yet both of us were talking about this weird ennui that we felt
00:27:18.960 of like, just like, blech, what is that, you know?
00:27:22.680 And I was like, I feel like this odd emptiness
00:27:27.160 and it feels so wrong given the nature of my life, you know?
00:27:35.380 And she was like, yeah, me too.
00:27:37.500 And there were people in Vancouver, in the actor's circle there,
00:27:40.980 who'd gotten into what seemed like a life coaching course.
00:27:44.320 They wanted other local actors to join.
00:27:46.880 It sounded light and fun.
00:27:48.660 The name of the company giving the courses was NXIVM.
00:27:52.780 It's the science of joy.
00:27:54.560 It's the most amazing thing.
00:27:56.320 It's made everything so much better in my life.
00:27:58.260 You've got to do this.
00:27:59.000 You've got to do this.
00:27:59.520 Allison says Kristen took a NXIVM course
00:28:01.840 and came back and told her all about it.
00:28:04.060 It was like all she could talk about.
00:28:05.340 She was just like super excited about it.
00:28:07.160 You know, she had a coach
00:28:08.220 and she was talking about Vanguard and Prefect,
00:28:11.620 which are the names that you called Keith and Nancy at the time.
00:28:15.760 But Kristen was like, there is an organization, Keith's Creative,
00:28:18.100 it's just for women and they're doing a weekend
00:28:19.800 and I think you should do it and I think you'd really like it.
00:28:22.600 And I was like, okay, well, if you think I should do it, I'll like it.
00:28:25.340 Like, okay, like, I'll do it.
00:28:31.840 That first weekend course took place in a hotel conference room in Vancouver.
00:28:36.840 I can picture it.
00:28:37.760 Gray walls, strangely geometric tiled carpets, those long tablecloths that reach all the way to the floor.
00:28:44.800 The course was taught by Nancy Salzman, a formidable woman with short, dark hair and a laser-sharp focus.
00:28:51.700 This is some archival video of Nancy explaining NXIVM's coursework.
00:28:56.300 Hello, I'm Nancy Salzman. Welcome to your first Origins class.
00:29:00.920 Did you ever see the carnival game whack-a-mole?
00:29:03.180 there's this little mole and he pops up
00:29:05.800 and he has this, like, little grassy hat on.
00:29:08.600 So you take the sledgehammer and you knock down this mole
00:29:11.580 and you knock down this one, knock one down 0.86
00:29:13.760 and another one pops up and another one pops up
00:29:15.840 and, and does this sound like your life?
00:29:18.740 Nancy's daughter Lauren was there too.
00:29:21.340 Lauren's got the same dark hair as her mother 0.96
00:29:23.320 and eyebrows that have also been tweezed to a very fine point,
00:29:27.300 like a comma turned on its side.
00:29:29.080 I'm the head of the education division for the company.
00:29:31.740 I love the curriculum, and I think I know better than anybody besides Keith and Pete
00:29:36.620 how this stuff works and what to do with it.
00:29:39.000 Nancy's sermons focused on honesty, a core tenet of NXIVM's teachings,
00:29:43.560 which emphasize each person being radically honest with themselves
00:29:46.860 and taking accountability for their own actions.
00:29:50.440 We were learning about what's the purpose of mankind,
00:29:53.660 and we were learning about, like, how does that relate to gender differences and relationships.
00:29:58.740 After Nancy's presentations, they'd split into breakout groups to dig deeper. 0.99
00:30:03.780 It was empowering to Alison to spend a weekend hanging out with women,
00:30:07.340 examining themselves and their role in society.
00:30:10.360 I liked the curriculum.
00:30:13.080 Like, I liked what we were learning.
00:30:14.380 We were learning about honesty and what does it mean to be honest.
00:30:17.720 After the weekend in Vancouver ended,
00:30:20.060 Alison says they went to Kristen Kruk's house
00:30:22.280 with Nancy and some of the people from the course.
00:30:25.180 And Nancy did like an EM demo.
00:30:27.400 EM is like an exploration of meaning, and it was like this amazing therapeutic thing for people in NXIVN.
00:30:35.120 It was like the panacea kind of a thing.
00:30:37.440 And you would bring an issue that you had to Nancy,
00:30:41.140 and then Nancy would have this conversation with you
00:30:44.560 where she would explore the meaning that you made around this concept or this problem that you have.
00:30:50.860 An EM is sort of a therapy session, but it almost sounds like something out of Scientology.
00:30:56.240 It helps you destroy the problem almost instantly.
00:30:59.180 Helps you go clear.
00:31:00.640 And then by the end of the conversation, you would be better.
00:31:04.620 And like you would feel different and everything would be better.
00:31:07.400 So we all watched this person get their EM.
00:31:10.440 And it was like, whoa, that seemed to really help that person.
00:31:13.880 So I was like, I want one of those.
00:31:16.360 I want an EM.
00:31:18.020 And Nancy said, you know what?
00:31:19.940 We have an extra seat on our private plane.
00:31:22.420 Does anybody want to come back to Albany with us tonight and meet Keith?
00:31:27.960 Keith Raniere, the guy who everyone in NXIVM was talking about constantly.
00:31:32.320 He didn't come to Vancouver, but everyone said that he was the guy who'd birthed all of NXIVM himself.
00:31:38.060 They say he's the world's smartest and most ethical man.
00:31:41.620 He is the guru.
00:31:43.240 And I was like, well, I got nothing to do for the next couple of days.
00:31:46.840 I don't have to shoot anything until the end of next week.
00:31:49.300 Like, yeah, I want to go.
00:31:52.420 The private plane they were taking belonged to Claire Bronfman, the mega-rich Seagram heir and NXIVM devotee.
00:31:59.480 Her grandfather grew present-day Seagram into a giant conglomerate from a distillery in Montreal in the 1920s.
00:32:07.860 On the tarmac, outside the jet, Alison walks up the steps and into paradise.
00:32:15.020 It was my first time ever on a private plane.
00:32:17.600 It's like what you see on TV.
00:32:19.060 Like, it's, you know, there's, like, several chairs.
00:32:21.880 was, you know, a pilot, and he was like, do you want to watch the takeoff? And like, I sat up in
00:32:25.960 the front with him as we took off. I can imagine Allison looking out through the cockpit, seeing
00:32:31.740 the horizon broadened before her. Not only is she a successful actor with lots of money and the 0.60
00:32:37.440 ability to travel wherever she wants, now she's literally seeing the world in a new way, opening
00:32:43.420 her eyes and mind to new possibilities. I remember we didn't have to sit in the chair, we could sit
00:32:49.600 on the floor, which I was like, what? I'm on the floor in the plane. That's weird. Up here in a
00:32:54.520 private plane, the rules didn't apply. So Alison settles down cross-legged with all the spiritual 0.98
00:33:00.760 seekers from NXIVM. Nancy Salzman, Lauren Salzman, and Claire Bronfman. These amazing, powerful women 0.89
00:33:08.280 who seem to be so deep and have all the answers for the ennui she'd been feeling.
00:33:13.020 they land in albany a small city in upstate new york nestled on the hudson river from the airport
00:33:21.640 they pile into cars nexium members as a rule drove bmws because keith thought they were the
00:33:27.240 best made cars and allison heads to nancy's house in the suburb of clifton park about 25 minutes
00:33:33.560 from the city but pretty much as soon as they arrive nancy disappears and allison is told to
00:33:40.620 hang tight. Someone would come
00:33:42.560 get her so she can go to 1.00
00:33:44.420 volleyball. Yes. 1.00
00:33:47.040 Volleyball.
00:33:48.400 And I was like, okay, cool. And they were like, but it's gonna
00:33:50.560 be like, late. Like, middle
00:33:52.620 of the night because they start playing volleyball
00:33:54.460 at midnight.
00:33:56.380 And I was like,
00:33:58.000 that's weird. And they were like, well, Keith is
00:34:00.520 not on a regular person's
00:34:03.040 schedule and
00:34:04.320 they like to have privacy
00:34:06.320 when they play volleyball, so that's why they play
00:34:08.460 in the middle of the night. So I was like, alright.
00:34:11.060 Okay.
00:34:14.000 Allison waits and waits.
00:34:16.440 And then, late at night,
00:34:18.260 as the sleep is threatening to push at the corners of Allison's eyes,
00:34:22.260 a woman arrives to pick her up.
00:34:24.200 She's in a BMW SUV.
00:34:26.220 And we go to the volleyball court,
00:34:30.440 and there's, like, a whole bunch of people there.
00:34:33.140 It's, like, the middle of the night, and there's, like, tons of people.
00:34:35.660 I was like, whoa, okay.
00:34:37.620 If you've seen HBO's The Vow, you know the scene Allison's talking about.
00:34:41.940 Brightly lit volleyball courts, the sound of sneakers squeaking on the floor, 0.86
00:34:45.920 dozens of shorts-wearing NXIVM men bolting volleyballs back and forth
00:34:49.780 while throngs of women watch from the sidelines.
00:34:53.080 And I go walking into the gym, and I just went and sat down.
00:34:59.540 And I was, like, watching them play volleyball and just kind of waiting.
00:35:02.040 And they finished a set, and Keith came over, and they introduced him to me.
00:35:07.620 Keith's short. He's wearing a black t-shirt, shorts, knee pads, and he's got his long hair pulled back in a ponytail with a sweatband on top.
00:35:16.320 I wasn't expecting, like, some big studly, like, I didn't think, like, whoa, he's so hot.
00:35:21.520 Like, I thought he's an older, geeky dude.
00:35:26.820 He looked like somebody that my dad didn't opera with when I was in Germany. 0.54
00:35:30.520 Like, he just looked like a normal white dude.
00:35:32.300 And I mean, yes, he's a total geek with his headband and his glasses and his volleyball thing, whatever.
00:35:39.840 And he said, it's nice to meet you.
00:35:42.680 Do you have a question for me?
00:35:45.360 And I was like, a question?
00:35:47.180 And he said, yeah.
00:35:48.680 I said, I didn't know I was supposed to prepare a question.
00:35:51.660 And he said, well, you didn't have to prepare a question, but some people like to ask me questions.
00:35:55.120 And I was like, oh, I don't have a question.
00:35:57.960 I just thought I'd come and smile and cheer you guys on and it would be okay.
00:36:03.260 And he went, oh, is that how you do life?
00:36:07.800 Is that how you do life, he says.
00:36:10.880 This is Alison's first time meeting Keith.
00:36:14.020 And now Alison, the successful young actress, is already being put on her back foot.
00:36:19.960 She feels as though she's done something wrong.
00:36:22.240 Which, for a people pleaser like Alison, throws her into a tailspin.
00:36:27.160 When he said, oh, is that how you do life?
00:36:28.900 I was like, I don't think so.
00:36:31.860 I don't think I just stand on the sidelines and smile,
00:36:33.880 but like, maybe, I don't know.
00:36:36.580 After this interaction,
00:36:38.080 Allison's ride asks her if she wants to head out.
00:36:40.660 And I was like, okay, yeah, I mean,
00:36:41.980 I'm getting kind of tired, so let's go.
00:36:43.940 So we get in the car to go home,
00:36:45.580 and I said, nobody told me I had to prepare a question.
00:36:48.540 And she said, well, you didn't have to prepare a question.
00:36:50.620 And I said, but Keith asked me if I had a question,
00:36:52.520 and I didn't know that he was going to ask me that.
00:36:54.380 and she was like well some people have questions for him and I was like well why and she was like
00:36:59.760 well he's like the smartest man in the world so usually when people meet the smartest man in the
00:37:04.840 world they may have questions for him and I was like so I can ask him anything and she said yeah
00:37:10.340 you can ask him anything and I was like oh and I thought well then I do have a question and she was
00:37:17.200 like do you want to go back and I said yeah and so we turned around and we went back and by this
00:37:21.940 point it was like three o'clock in the morning. And I walk into the gym and I said, I thought of
00:37:28.900 a question. And he said, oh, okay. And I sat down and he made me wait till they finished the whole
00:37:35.320 game. On set, Alison's the talent. She's the person people wait for. But with Keith, it was 0.85
00:37:44.340 the other way around. So I waited for like probably an hour. Eventually, Keith Daines to come talk to
00:37:51.660 her again he came over and sat next to me and the whole room came and sat down like around us
00:37:58.480 was so bizarre and i was like okay this is weird but like i'm a performer and like i okay like sure
00:38:05.940 you guys want to sit and watch us like sure and um mark was there with the camera filming us
00:38:12.300 mark vicente another prominent nexium member and filmmaker and i think somebody even said like we
00:38:18.180 film everything keith says because he's so brilliant we don't want to miss anything
00:38:22.280 and i was like okay and he said what's your question the question allison has for keith
00:38:28.740 is what is art and he took me on this really wild exploration of art and essentially at the end
00:38:37.000 said like art itself is nothing but what you make of art is everything so essentially art is a
00:38:42.860 reflection of whoever you are and whatever you are inside and no one had ever said anything like
00:38:47.660 that to me. Like no one had ever turned anything around. I was so externally focused and my parents
00:38:52.880 were so externally focused that the idea that what I was seeing outside that I thought was so
00:38:57.120 beautiful was a reflection of me inside was like, like blew my mind, you know? Alison starts to cry.
00:39:05.820 This is what she's been searching for, meaning. And now she's found it here in Albany in an amazing
00:39:12.260 group that so many of her friends are a part of, run by a principled man called Keith Raniere.
00:39:18.360 It's a lot for her to take in, overwhelming even.
00:39:22.160 And I felt like discombobulated and disoriented about what he was saying to me.
00:39:28.940 It almost felt like the ground was like shifting.
00:39:31.020 It was a bizarre experience.
00:39:33.400 And he said, are you okay?
00:39:34.760 And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'm okay.
00:39:37.240 I'm just feeling a little disoriented.
00:39:39.180 That was a lot.
00:39:42.700 Allison seems so earnest, so desperate to please.
00:39:46.960 She reminds me of all the musical theater girls in high school who I found performative.
00:39:51.720 And her question, to me, a snobby Ivy League grad, seems like a sort of elementary one.
00:39:57.920 Philosophy of art 101.
00:40:00.480 But it's easier to laugh at someone than wonder where they're coming from.
00:40:05.400 That's part of what I'm trying to do here.
00:40:07.540 Push past my gut reactions to understand how and why Alison got sucked into NXIVM.
00:40:14.040 and what drove her to do the things she did.
00:40:18.240 Because it didn't happen overnight.
00:40:21.260 Twelve years is a long time. 0.99
00:40:25.040 Alison would leave Vancouver and leave L.A. and move to Albany.
00:40:29.860 She would become one of Keith's top students.
00:40:33.400 All of these threads of her childhood,
00:40:35.640 people-pleasing, wanting desperately to be liked by authority figures,
00:40:39.600 competing with other women, would start weaving together, 0.96
00:40:42.960 pushing her to become the best NXIVM pupil, 0.82
00:40:45.900 the best workshop leader,
00:40:47.860 the best cult member,
00:40:50.340 a person capable of doing horrible things.
00:40:53.960 And one of those awful things 1.00
00:40:55.940 was being part of the group of women
00:40:57.840 who helped dozens of other women 0.98
00:41:00.000 get a body modification
00:41:01.460 under questionable circumstances.
00:41:04.400 In many ways, it was an eerie echo
00:41:06.560 of what had happened to Alison
00:41:08.120 so many years earlier,
00:41:10.400 when she had that initial of a boyfriend
00:41:12.240 tattooed on herself.
00:41:19.460 In a quiet house, one woman lays on a massage table. 0.59
00:41:24.400 The lights are off.
00:41:25.960 The smell of singed human flesh is in the air.
00:41:30.340 These women are getting the initials of Alison's,
00:41:33.260 you could say, boyfriend, Keith Raniere, inscribed on them.
00:41:38.260 But she's not telling them that.
00:41:40.120 And what they're getting is not a tattoo, of course.
00:41:43.940 It's something much, much worse.
00:41:47.220 A brand, burned into the delicate skin above the hip bone with a cauterizing iron.
00:41:53.520 The fine point of the searing hot pen comes in contact with flesh.
00:41:58.940 It sizzles.
00:42:00.980 This woman is one of her slaves, someone Allison has made an oath to help and protect.
00:42:06.860 But she hasn't protected them. 1.00
00:42:09.620 She's been telling some of them to seduce Keith sexually.
00:42:14.760 Allison doesn't want to talk about this part of the story,
00:42:17.580 and especially not the branding.
00:42:19.500 I can feel it.
00:42:21.220 It bothers her that she's associated with this horrific graphic mark of the cult.
00:42:26.840 But she's so associated with it,
00:42:29.000 some of these women would come to believe the brand actually contained Allison's initials.
00:42:34.340 It wasn't true, but it was a rumor that would catch on like wildfire.
00:42:38.800 and now Allison must talk about it.
00:42:42.800 She must take responsibility. 1.00
00:42:49.760 People think the sorority was kind of like your hunting ground or something. 1.00
00:42:54.800 I have at least one polyamorous partner that is in the sorority.
00:42:59.120 He's flirting with somebody younger, prettier, more famous, more popular,
00:43:03.960 you know, whatever than you.
00:43:06.180 and you start to realize you aged out before you were even 30.
00:43:10.780 He said, in order for me to help you with that,
00:43:12.660 we're going to have to be physically intimate.
00:43:14.700 I'm nervous about putting every asset that we have on the line
00:43:18.540 when I'm not sure that her allegiance is to us and not Keith.
00:43:22.940 I go into his suite and I lock it down. 0.98
00:43:25.500 And I'm like, get the fuck out of here, like go out the window. 0.94
00:43:28.160 And all I can think of is just protect Keith. 1.00
00:43:30.020 How do you feel about having been involved in, like, bringing sexual trauma to other people?
00:43:37.960 I mean, I don't even know how to answer that question.
00:43:49.580 You've been listening to Uncover, Alison after NXIVM, from CBC and Campside Media.
00:43:56.260 It's hosted by me, Natalie Robamed.
00:43:58.720 Our executive producers are myself and Vanessa Gregoriadis at Campside
00:44:02.760 and Stephen Belper.
00:44:04.720 Our senior producer is Lily Houston-Smith.
00:44:07.300 And our associate producer is Emma Siminoff.
00:44:10.420 Sound design, mix, and engineering by Mark McAdam and Ewin Liatrimuen.
00:44:15.340 Thank you to Colin Campbell.
00:44:16.740 At CBC, our story editor is Derek John,
00:44:19.940 and our senior producer is Kate Evans.
00:44:22.280 Our coordinating producer is Emily Connell.
00:44:24.640 Our executive producers are Cecil Fernandes and Chris Oak.
00:44:28.860 Tonya Springer is the senior manager.
00:44:31.540 Arif Noorani is the director.
00:44:33.880 If you enjoyed Alison after NXIVM, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.
00:44:39.640 Thanks for listening.
00:44:44.320 That was the first episode from the brand new season of Uncover, Alison after NXIVM.
00:44:49.840 If you like what you heard, episode two is waiting for you right now.
00:44:53.820 just search for Uncover
00:44:55.480 wherever you get your podcast
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00:45:00.820 I don't think I can be your friend
00:45:03.780 Isabella said
00:45:04.780 Rebecca's stomach flipped
00:45:06.800 this is the love story of real hinge couple
00:45:09.940 Isabella and Rebecca
00:45:10.800 written and read by me, Tammy Denton-Hurst
00:45:13.140 listen to the free audiobook now