Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Grief is for People with Sloane Crosley

00:00:00.000 Hello, hello, hello. Today's episode is about grief. But I promise it's not the most depressing

00:00:11.940 episode we've ever made. That one goes to at least one of the Ballerina Farm episodes.

00:00:17.120 In fact, you might even laugh a little. Maybe more than a little, actually. My guest today

00:00:23.220 is genuinely hilarious. Now, why am I talking about grief today? A lot of reasons.

00:00:30.000 actually. See, when my dad passed away from muscular dystrophy in 2015, grief influencers

00:00:36.940 on Instagram existed, but they weren't a thing like today, so I didn't get bombarded with them.

00:00:43.240 Now, I've been thinking about his death a lot lately. A lot. And I want to tell you honestly

00:00:49.700 that I think I've been grieving him in a way that I couldn't when he actually passed away.

00:00:55.020 See, when my dad died, I was newly pregnant, newly married.

00:00:59.420 I'd just lost my job and moved across the country.

00:01:02.660 I was never properly able to grieve.

00:01:06.840 But I've been doing it now.

00:01:09.280 See, writing The Sicilian Inheritance and doing this podcast where I'm digging into all of our family history,

00:01:15.680 it's been letting me mourn for the first time.

00:01:19.580 And I just finished an essay about that for today.com last night.

00:01:24.260 Now, because I wrote an essay on grief, and I emailed that essay on grief, and I'm saying it out loud in the world, Instagram has clearly heard me.

00:01:35.940 And now, I am being served grief influencers.

00:01:40.500 Yes, that is a thing. You all know the rule. If it exists in the world, there is an influencer for it.

00:01:47.620 I truly believe that people should do anything they need to get through a difficult time.

00:01:53.960 Anything.

00:01:54.580 I do not judge.

00:01:57.200 And I have many, many friends in my life who have written useful and beautiful books about

00:02:02.240 grief and grieving.

00:02:03.440 I also have many friends who have smart and funny and also heartbreaking podcasts about

00:02:08.680 grief.

00:02:09.500 I'm looking at you, Nora.

00:02:11.240 I'm looking at you, kid.

00:02:12.240 But I will say, there is something inherently icky about being served a course, being asked to pay for a course, to overcome my grief on social media by a person who is probably not an expert on anything.

00:02:31.180 There just is. It's inherently icky.

00:02:34.420 And here to chat with me about all of this is one of my friends who has written a beautiful book about grief and grieving.

00:02:41.700 Sloane Crosley's new book, Grief is for People, came out this week, and it is the best thing she's ever written.

00:02:48.980 It is. It is heartbreaking, but it is also funny.

00:02:53.340 Because Sloane is one of the funniest people that I know, and her gift is to take difficult things and explain them in a way that you just get it.

00:03:04.820 You just feel it, and you're right there along with her.

00:03:08.180 I kind of ambushed Sloane when I asked her to come on the show to talk about grief influencers,

00:03:12.940 because she has no idea what they are.

00:03:16.560 But that's better.

00:03:17.660 And we're going to get into all of it today.

00:03:24.880 This is the highlight of the end of my week, that I get to just sit.

00:03:30.800 And it's been a good week.

00:03:32.040 Glynnis and I went to Oyster Bar last night.

00:03:35.000 So, yeah.

00:03:36.440 Oh, my God. That's so great. Okay. So I haven't been to Oyster Bar, God, in like 10 years.

00:03:43.500 No, no. Neither had I. We went through the secret entrance, the one that's just like a gold door

00:03:50.480 that takes you into the saloon. And we're sitting there, we're like, this is a perfect restaurant.

00:03:55.620 And also half of the people in here are having affairs. Oh, I know.

00:04:00.700 I think about that all the time, but I grew up in a very affair-centric place. So if you keep on

00:04:06.060 pulling the cord from oyster bar eventually you that cord is metro north yes yes and you'll hit

00:04:12.760 white plains where i grew up which like is like the southern most part of westchester and so every

00:04:18.100 time still i just went to see my parents and i roll in and i look at their sort of miniature

00:04:22.420 kind of condo filled skyline that's like really built up since i was a kid and i'm like this is

00:04:28.440 like divorced dad havens divorced dad central what it is it's like divorced dad central yeah

00:04:35.660 yep yep and like and and everyone started that journey in the oyster bar and then they got on

00:04:41.680 the metro north and then yeah i don't know but i do like how it still feels a little chievery

00:04:46.340 oh yes it's a whole thing so does it's so does and if you're gonna have i would like if i'm gonna 0.57

00:04:51.700 if i was to be married and then ruin my marriage i would like to ruin it at the oyster bar that's

00:04:56.820 exactly what i told nick when i came home late last night that's smelling smelling like oysters

00:05:02.060 i was like gin oysters and gin i'm like if i cheat on you it's gonna be at the oyster bar

00:05:08.540 just so you know if you're gonna do it do it well um so i'm so excited to talk about this

00:05:14.620 for several for several different reasons but i want you to know that i have intentionally

00:05:18.440 because i thought it would be funnier not because i was trying to be unprepared

00:05:22.600 i have looked up nothing about what a grief a grief fluencer is i'm gonna go i don't i don't

00:05:29.540 want i don't want you to know i don't want you to know

00:05:32.060 Because I think that a lot of our audience doesn't know that there is a world of grief fluencing out there. I mean, it's big. It's grown in size in the past few years. I think on one hand, it's super beneficial because when you are going through it, when you're in the thick of it, finding community is amazing.

00:05:55.640 yes and then on the other side you have people trying to sell you grief courses to fix your

00:06:04.260 grief okay okay all right so i actually um you know i didn't look it up and i thought

00:06:13.420 are these like lavender pillows that you know you sort of fling yourself into and cry

00:06:19.920 are they books do you know what i mean my first instinct is like how to books you know how to

00:06:25.220 bucks yeah yeah how to like but i didn't it takes and i can't i cannot say tips and tricks because

00:06:31.560 it's so it's like such a horror to my tongue to think about it but i can't even um articulate it

00:06:38.060 but yeah i i didn't realize horses courses there are courses yeah yeah like i said what okay

00:06:45.100 courses courses in how to cope with your grief um which and you know it does sound silly tips

00:06:53.460 and tricks, but that's exactly what a lot of these folks are selling. This is also nothing

00:07:05.940 new. Everything on Instagram is just a reinvention of what we've seen for a long time. There are many,

00:07:12.400 many books about grief. Oh, yeah. I've read them all. Yes, yes. But it does feel, I think, to me,

00:07:23.440 more intimate and often intrusive when these people who claim they want to help you in exchange

00:07:31.500 for money live in your pocket, in a device that's in your pocket. Well, also, as you well know from

00:07:37.900 both living in the world and presumably know the uh sort of topography of influence uh from doing

00:07:44.620 this podcast like it's not just one you can't dip into one of anything it's like once you pop you

00:07:52.420 can't stop here and it's like you know the amount of videos i get for like japanese pastries because

00:07:58.580 i was just interested in one of them now i just transfer that sort of algorithm into grief and i

00:08:04.740 think it's one of these things where like, it's a sensitive time period. Sometimes you're very in

00:08:10.960 it. It's the only thing you want to talk about. Sometimes you don't. And so the idea of being

00:08:16.260 served, it seems damaging to be served a lot of different kinds of grief content that you didn't

00:08:22.240 explicitly request. Yes, yes, yes. And yes. And when you go to pick up a book about grief,

00:08:29.680 you're choosing that book. Whereas the Instagram algorithm will keep serving you things that

00:08:36.160 probably don't serve you. Yeah. Or you like forgot to be sad. Like, I don't know if you

00:08:39.720 remember those old ads, probably when we were kids, if I, if I may be so bold as to lump us

00:08:44.620 together. We are, we are exactly the same age, I think. Oh, yes. Really? Wonderful. I think. I

00:08:49.500 don't know. I mean, I'm 43 now. Oh, I'm so wizened. I'm 45. Oh, yeah. Actually, you're,

00:08:56.160 You're old. You're old. Yeah.

00:08:59.280 It's like those ads when we were kids that were PSAs.

00:09:05.100 I have no idea who paid for them.

00:09:06.520 The same people who fund like the more, you know, and at 10 o'clock on local,

00:09:11.220 local TV stations, it would say it's 10 o'clock.

00:09:14.440 Do you know where your children are?

00:09:16.500 And I would see it as like a sort of preteen and it's meant for like,

00:09:21.300 keep your kids off drugs and make sure they're not, you know,

00:09:23.940 gallivanting about town.

00:09:26.060 And I would see it and I would think, wow, it's 10 o'clock.

00:09:30.300 I'm home.

00:09:31.820 And it would remind, like, what am I doing home?

00:09:33.480 But just to be reminded constantly of your grief, it just seems like a bit of a square

00:09:38.760 peg round hole situation with Instagram.

00:09:41.360 There are certain things that fit perfectly with sort of marketing.

00:09:47.100 And to be marketed, grief healing feels tricky.

00:09:50.860 Feels tricky.

00:09:52.540 I wanted to have you on today for a lot of reasons.

00:09:54.680 One, because I haven't seen your face in like way too long.

00:09:57.240 And this is nice.

00:09:57.540 You're not seeing it right now either.

00:09:59.060 I'm not seeing it right now.

00:10:00.060 I got to see it for like 2.5 seconds.

00:10:02.240 Hi.

00:10:02.940 Hi.

00:10:03.720 And, but also because I think your, like your book is such a great example of something to, to pick up.

00:10:12.520 I mean, you can pick it up if you're, if you're not going through grief, but something to pick up that is, is not, that I think it's the opposite of what we're getting with a lot of grief influencers.

00:10:21.560 It is something that you are choosing, that you can engage with when and how you choose. And that's the way I like to have my media, frankly.

00:10:33.840 Yes. Well, two things. One, I would say is all books are like this, right? That's just the nature of the medium. Yay books. But then also, especially the more universal the topic, grief, falling in love, the Civil War, the more universal and the more well-trodden that that territory is.

00:10:56.860 I'm certainly not the first person to tackle it and certainly not the first person to experience it, the more specific you need to get in order to break through.

00:11:05.700 And so I think the very concept of influencing a bunch of people you can't see, like to to suggest here's a bomb, here's a one size fits all, like a graphic or a course or whatever it is or a song.

00:11:20.100 um that's not really the story of that influencer if they're selling courses and they're selling

00:11:27.680 like quick not quick fixes but even like oh the road is long kind of uh quotes um so i think for

00:11:35.340 my book it's extremely specific i had um a friend um die by suicide and a month prior is my closest

00:11:44.660 friend. And a month prior, I'd had a burglary, which remained a mystery. And he was actually

00:11:50.160 trying to help me solve. So it has these like very specific, weird, mixed up losses in one

00:11:56.940 time period that extends about over the course of the year. And the sadness is specific. He is

00:12:03.600 specific. Our friendship is specific. The city, my humor. But the thing is, the funny thing about

00:12:10.260 books is that, and I know you know this too, the more detailed you get, the more universal and the

00:12:16.940 more relatable things become. Comedy works the same way, even though I know we're talking about

00:12:21.180 grief. I just can't imagine these grief fluencers, and I shouldn't say so because I haven't really

00:12:27.400 explored their oeuvre, but I can't imagine that they're specific enough to help.

00:12:34.840 Yes, yes. And that's what I think all the time. And again, this is why I'm so glad that

00:12:40.240 you didn't do a deep dive earlier and yes your story is so specific and also brought to you like

00:12:49.600 it's it you have you're hilarious you know that i think you're hilarious and so this is a book

00:12:56.600 where you can be oh you're so funny um where you can you know bring humor and also tears and all

00:13:05.720 of the feelings onto the page at the same time. And another person that we're talking to in this

00:13:12.060 episode is a friend of mine, Nora McInerney, who does the Terrible Thanks for Asking podcast.

00:13:18.460 And yeah, I love Nora. We became friends because during a book event in Minnesota,

00:13:24.900 she invited me to her house and her husband made me hot dogs. And it was just the nicest thing

00:13:29.500 when you're on a book tour for someone. Were there cheese curds on the side?

00:13:32.980 Yes. Yes, they were. Just like sit in my house and with my kids running all over the place and here's some hot dogs. But also she like she makes you laugh and she makes you cry at the same time. And I think that bringing out all of those emotions, that's just it's a way to connect, I think. And I think that's why so many people are going to connect with your book.

00:13:53.300 I hope so. I mean, the thing that's interesting is for me, I have a baseline of sort of New York cynicism and a lot of the unfortunate trappings of grief and the depth of those emotions.

00:14:06.960 uh a lot of that cynicism had to give way for these extremely universal emotions um but i think

00:14:16.600 that maybe a lot of people do like to see this stuff on instagram because i think most people

00:14:22.320 are starting from a more earnest place and maybe it does you know whatever helps you i'm not uh here

00:14:30.600 on this podcast or this planet to tell you that what makes you feel better is cheesy and it

00:14:38.200 shouldn't make you feel better so if it works that would be evil that's actually that would

00:14:42.800 be like actually that would that would be like yeah like crazy crazy evil to be like oh this

00:14:47.220 thing that's really helping you for your loss that's lame that's lame i'm here to sort of wrench

00:14:52.540 the teddy bear out of your arms that's what i'm here for no the teddy bear smells and it's going 0.96

00:14:57.760 in the fucking trash but it's just like what do you do but the whole point is like these are 0.98

00:15:03.160 specific personalities i just i do think there seems to be a sort of universal like a global 0.99

00:15:11.720 sensibility sometimes it does um extend to literature in different ways but there's a

00:15:16.540 global sensibility often for fashion for food um for vacations that look nice these are all things

00:15:25.600 you know, for getting dressed and how to look like, you know, you showered before you go to

00:15:30.000 the office. These are all things that I think influencing actually has a sort of, you know,

00:15:35.460 maybe not interesting, but maybe not maniacal and maybe useful place in our society. I just can't

00:15:41.980 imagine selling people your individual courses on dealing with their grief. It feels, no matter

00:15:51.600 how many friends and family members you have when you experience a loss it's really hard to

00:15:57.460 fight the feeling of loneliness but i don't know and sometimes it is easier to talk to strangers

00:16:04.140 but there are very professional very free groups that you can find online for this you don't need

00:16:11.060 to take pay somebody to help you yeah yeah no i maybe you do i mean again i'm trying again i'm

00:16:18.660 not trying. But I don't know. I don't know. Not at all. Not at all. And again, I think that there

00:16:23.240 are also like great therapists online. I mean, my concern is always and this is what I've discovered,

00:16:28.380 you know, by reporting on influencers in the past couple of years is that for everything that

00:16:32.640 exists, there is an influencer and also, of course, and also a pyramid scheme. And so we just

00:16:37.980 have to be really picky about what we're consuming. And it's harder to do that again when you're

00:16:45.280 being inundated by an algorithm powered by AI that lives in your pocket that can be there when 0.99

00:16:51.600 you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, I just need a fucking friend. 0.93

00:16:55.380 Well, it's also really hard to do that and has a sort of vulture-y aspect to it when you're 0.98

00:17:04.220 dealing with people who are in grief. There are robocalls or scams that will come to people who

00:17:12.780 have like just lost their husbands like these people will go through like obituary sections

00:17:16.660 and figure out the family members figure out their phone numbers and then use that time to

00:17:21.180 try to sell them a non-existent timeshare or crack into their bank account and get their

00:17:25.900 social security number um and my social security number is no i'm just kidding

00:17:30.120 i'm not i'm not knee deep in grief anymore so i know not to say it so you won't give it to me

00:17:36.180 so i won't give it to you just give me the last just give me the last four numbers because

00:17:40.680 it's zero zero zero zero no uh but but the point is is that like um i think that that's an especially

00:17:49.220 vulnerable uh psychic population at that time period so they are more apt to sign up for courses

00:17:56.220 because they're not just trying to be thinner they're trying to um keep themselves tethered

00:18:02.600 to the earth it's so much more vulnerable it is and actually it's so interesting that you bring

00:18:09.180 that up because uh that robocalls have now evolved to social media so clearly clearly social media

00:18:17.880 can just like social media knew that i was pregnant before my husband did because of my period tracker

00:18:23.740 app oh yeah wait was it feeding how did it manifest was it like oh would you be interested

00:18:29.980 in this crib yes yeah yeah yeah it was the prenatal vitamins is what it was um these are

00:18:35.520 the prenatal vitamins you should be taking. I mean, it knew, like I had like just peed on a

00:18:39.460 stick and it's like, you should be getting these vitamins. You're going to kill your kid if you 1.00

00:18:43.280 don't. And, but it's doing, I've, I've, I've, I've heard from, from, from people who are in grief, 0.96

00:18:50.980 who've said Instagram knows that I just suffered a loss because they've posted, you know, they've,

00:18:57.700 they've said they've done an in memoriam post and they have been targeted by scams because of that,

00:19:03.400 because Instagram is constantly selling your data. And so they, they do feel that they have

00:19:09.600 really been just like nailed at this vulnerable time. My understanding, and I don't mean to sound

00:19:18.140 like Fran Lebowitz here. It's not like I don't check Instagram every second of every day, but

00:19:22.040 I am private. So I have a like, it's slightly less bad for me. But my understanding is that

00:19:29.540 the whole thing is based on FOMO, you know, and the whole thing is based on how to improve your

00:19:35.480 life. If I just had this, everything will be better. Keeping up with the Joneses.

00:19:41.320 Grief is about how to have a life period. And so the idea of like feeding it through

00:19:49.100 the same factory that brings you super cute shorts. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like just, it just seems

00:19:58.000 strange. Whereas that threat, if Instagram knows you're pregnant, it's also probably not

00:20:06.080 pleasant to get half these sort of veiled threats of like, I mean, babies are smarter who take

00:20:12.920 these vitamins. This will be helpful. This will help their development. But that still falls in

00:20:20.860 the category of, oh, I want this to make my life better. Grief is a totally different map where

00:20:27.220 It's just, you just need to feel like yourself again.

00:20:31.760 You don't need to feel better than you used to feel.

00:20:34.740 You just need to feel like yourself.

00:20:37.160 And so I feel like the idea of all this stuff, it just feels really invasive to me.

00:20:41.360 But I don't know.

00:20:42.060 The courses are interesting.

00:20:43.480 Can you tell me more about the courses?

00:20:45.720 Yeah, yeah.

00:20:46.400 And they vary.

00:20:47.440 They really do.

00:20:48.400 I have to tell you, there is a course for everything.

00:20:52.060 I mean, I've been targeted for-

00:20:54.400 I was teaching these things.

00:20:55.860 I want to see the degree.

00:20:57.220 Well, that's the thing. Much like baby sleep training courses, there is no real certification. People are now claiming that they are, they call themselves all kinds of innocuous things that don't need a degree, right?

00:21:14.460 I am a grief expert. I am a grief counselor. The word grief doula gets bandied about quite a bit

00:21:24.220 these days. I mean, I can guess what that is. Is it breathing exercises? No. Say no.

00:21:30.560 No. No. It is someone who I read one description and I don't, I try to be good about like not 0.93

00:21:39.500 calling out specific accounts a lot of times unless i mean they're like genuinely harming

00:21:45.600 just harming people um because i'm not i'm not here to shit on people right but like no no no

00:21:51.060 i'm here to i'm here to talk about like things we should watch out for and um one grief doula 0.85

00:21:56.920 that i that i followed while i was reporting this the line was assuring you out of grief

00:22:05.140 in the same way that a birth doula would usher your baby out of the womb.

00:22:15.340 All I can think when you say that is of my sister who apparently got stuck in the birth canal and

00:22:22.080 they used tongs to get her out. Now she has one weird ear. All I can think about is like, 0.99

00:22:26.800 oh my God, the grief doula is going to mess up your ears. 0.78

00:22:29.660 They're going to mess up your ear. Instagram made me terrified of that when I was supposed

00:22:34.320 to be coming up with my birth plan they're like don't let them use the tongs on your baby well

00:22:39.280 the tongs i mean it's just the problem is your entire life it's only salad so your association

00:22:44.040 is going to be real weird it's going to be like are they from crate and barrel how are they doing

00:22:47.420 where do these come from where are they coming from um but um no i i think that the concept of a

00:22:56.760 of a canal or a journey or anything is being used um if you'll pardon uh my phrasing too loosely in

00:23:03.780 this scenario. My canal is quite loose at this point. The grief canal. The grief canal. But I

00:23:12.460 just don't, I just would love to know without paying for it, what this actually means on the

00:23:20.020 ground. What are people actually getting? They pay for it and then you get someone you can call

00:23:23.540 at any hour of the day who will give you what your daily mantra, which is, by the way, also,

00:23:29.060 I'm not mocking that, that like transcendental meditation, like you do actually have to train

00:23:33.240 to teach that. I mean, I don't know what this is except for someone, and this is again where the

00:23:39.140 specificity comes in, if it's someone who has experienced profound loss of any kind and has

00:23:45.540 a genuine desire to help people now so they can go through the same thing that's a little bit easier

00:23:53.320 so that their road can be just as emotional but maybe not as hard and they can have resources.

00:23:59.280 I feel like specificity is the key and I think that feels antithetical like I want to hear about

00:24:04.840 that person's specific loss until I'm blue in the face but I don't necessarily want them telling me

00:24:09.800 what I should do yes yes yes and like I said it run it runs the gamut there are some beautiful

00:24:15.100 accounts out there where people are just telling their stories you know and it is a way I think

00:24:19.080 that's nice I'd agreed agreed and because social media is a different way of of storytelling and

00:24:26.660 showing. And I have a lot of friends who have felt very helped by those accounts. And when I

00:24:33.300 lost my dad, I know that I also felt helped by those accounts. But the issue is when it becomes

00:24:38.740 predatory, when it becomes an exchange, and when people are also calling themselves experts in

00:24:44.920 something that I don't think you can necessarily be an expert. Are there accounts sort of soup to

00:24:51.340 nuts grief or do we get an occasional dog photo or is it just please buy my you know a package of

00:24:57.680 you know give me four hundred dollars for a package of two courses i mean you know people

00:25:04.660 are pretty instagram savvy at this point so most accounts you're selling if you're calling yourself

00:25:11.040 like an expert i mean i my my account is private and from now until the end of february when my

00:25:19.620 book comes out, I will be annoying everyone who has the misfortune of following me with

00:25:24.660 sheer book publicity, pre-order the book, here's a book tour content. And so I can't imagine what

00:25:30.780 that looks like if it's year round and it's public. Yeah. I mean, you know what? I'll bet

00:25:38.300 you my followers could tell you because all I fucking talk about is my book and getting people 0.97

00:25:43.060 getting people they're like yeah joe's a monster frankly joe just won't stop you have like so few 0.96

00:25:49.940 products like what if i was like what if i made so one thing and i had one not even one kind of soap

00:25:56.120 like every four years but just literally one bar i need to sell just one bar of soap just

00:26:02.260 please buy this one bar of soap so that i can just i love this i love this bar of soap so much

00:26:07.940 and i love it much i put so much into it yes please buy my soap please please please not

00:26:14.480 crappy you'll get clean yeah but yes but maybe maybe it smells nice you won't get a rash

00:26:21.200 and then you know if you're feeling grief you can cry in the shower with it exactly exactly no i

00:26:27.340 mean there's it's it's there it runs the gamut of like there are like you know there's like look

00:26:33.340 at this picture of a lot of it is also beautiful imagery which interests the algorithm loves right

00:26:42.120 so beautiful imagery of individuals saying like this doesn't this person look happy and healthy

00:26:48.520 now right like you're never actually seeing anyone go through the grief you're seeing you not see

00:26:53.960 like models with like dewy eyes crying no no no no no then that that never happens that's actually

00:27:01.300 kind of good. That's actually a real surprise. I thought for sure it would be like there would be

00:27:07.580 some sort of contamination of the aspirational because it's so ubiquitous that would come into

00:27:13.300 a grief fluencer and it would just be like a hot, sad person.

00:27:20.200 Oh, I mean, a lot of the people are hot and sad, but not crying. Like you never look unpleasant

00:27:29.420 is the thing um i mean that's the thing there's nothing more unpleasant than this i just i don't

00:27:34.900 know i'm just trying to think of an equivalent i guess i i just think it's i just think no tour

00:27:47.540 it's like a perfume grief where it smells a little bit different on everybody and that's what makes

00:27:53.580 it great that's part of the chemical not great excuse me perfume great grief not so great but

00:27:57.600 like that's part of the balance of it whereas i'm trying to think of something else that's

00:28:01.440 extremely heavy and about mortality and that would be let's say cancer and i'm sure there

00:28:06.560 are cancer influencers or people who are like here are resources here's medicines here's all

00:28:12.400 the stuff and we did it we did a whole we did a yeah we did a whole sorry we did a oh god please

00:28:17.520 there's like a thousand episodes not like uh we yeah the cancer influencing world the cancer

00:28:22.660 influencing world is actually quite dangerous yeah it's probably well it's probably dangerous

00:28:26.340 because it's offering you up like colloidal silver or something like that.

00:28:30.240 Yes, that's exactly what it's doing.

00:28:31.680 But I feel like, but aside from that, I do think there are some universalities to cancer

00:28:37.420 where it's like, oh, hey, has anybody gone through this kind of chemo, this kind of radiation?

00:28:43.360 What stage are you at?

00:28:44.920 What organ are you being plagued by?

00:28:48.600 And I feel like there's a little bit where I don't even know, you know, my friend died

00:28:52.720 by suicide. And I often don't find comfort in other people who lost loved ones to suicide.

00:29:04.040 And it's not because I'm trying to alienate myself from them. Furthermore, I worry. I am

00:29:10.220 traumatized by it. And I worry about offending them because I know that my sensibility is a

00:29:16.720 little darker. And I know that the person who died, my friend Russell, his sensibility was

00:29:21.240 extremely dark. So you've got people on both sides of the dividing line of life and death here

00:29:27.040 making terrible jokes. And I'm like, oh, I should watch it. I don't know if I get it. So I just,

00:29:34.060 again, I just keep coming back to this idea that like, I don't know how you advertise for this.

00:29:41.120 We are going to talk about how you advertise for this after a very quick break.

00:29:51.240 i'm going to describe one grief doula that i'm looking at right now please yes yes so it says

00:30:07.000 you know please complete the intake form and you can expect a response in one to three business

00:30:12.460 days i want to make this healing opportunity accessible to you i'm offering a pay what you

00:30:18.920 want option your healing is my priority and i'm committed to helping you find comfort and peace

00:30:24.800 during this difficult time and it is a video of a woman in a very flowery dress

00:30:31.680 rubbing the back of another woman in a very flowery dress i can guess the brand but i don't

00:30:40.120 want to like let's not say it out loud there oh please doan is doan is never going to sponsor me 0.99

00:30:46.520 okay one wants nothing even though i like all i spend too much money on their stupid dresses 0.93

00:30:51.960 they're never going to be a podcast sponsor i was like i just tried to psychically put it through 0.97

00:30:56.660 my microphone and i'm like just just say dylan um okay so the pay as you go makes me feel

00:31:05.260 uh oh it has a slight um sort of 90s beeper drug dealer first time is free tinge

00:31:13.720 totally yes i mean not that i had a beeper and not that i had a beeper in the 90s and bought

00:31:18.360 drugs with it but i did so whatever drugs with it i mean however you used to be exchanging the

00:31:25.980 physical beeper for drugs and like some drug dealer being like ma'am this is not how this 1.00

00:31:29.380 works sorry 16 year old suburban bitch like who told you this where are you getting your information 1.00

00:31:37.500 um but uh you're sourcing some from some strange places but no i think that so at least it's pay 0.98

00:31:44.840 as you go i just don't i i cannot imagine having gone through actual grief um yeah there are

00:31:54.620 times where i had these dark nights of the soul where it just seemed impossible to find a suitable

00:32:01.340 loved one or professional, like a therapist, to help. And I definitely Googled. And part of the

00:32:12.480 title for my book, Why Grief is for People, it's called Grief is for People, is because I tried to

00:32:17.680 find almost similar groups after this burglary that was very, this robbery that was very traumatic,

00:32:22.460 and I couldn't find any. It's like, sorry, your house blew up. It was just a house.

00:32:27.120 But then when Russell died, they were there. And I thought, ah, because grief is for people,

00:32:33.420 not things. And that's where the title comes from, is actually trying to seek this kind of

00:32:39.740 thing out. So I'm very familiar with it. But I just feel like I know that those moments were

00:32:48.280 buttressed by moments of not wanting to talk to anybody. And so maybe I'm jealous of the

00:32:56.380 sort of self-knowledge that someone, even if they're being swindled, signs up for or has when

00:33:03.320 they sign up for one of these courses, because I'm not going to know, or I didn't know from one

00:33:09.100 minute to the next, if I would never want to speak to another human being again, because I felt like

00:33:14.520 they all were traitors because they were alive and my friend was dead. And I just sort of eschewed

00:33:22.660 humanity. And then sometimes I just wanted a hug. So I don't know. The idea of having even the

00:33:29.420 forethought to sign up for something is so foreign to me. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, it does. But also

00:33:37.640 when it's constantly there in your face, when you pick up the phone and you're like, oh,

00:33:45.440 I just wanted to I'm just opening Instagram to buy this don't dress. And oh, OK. Yeah. Here you

00:33:51.560 are yeah here you are yeah and they and well and the thing with instagram which i've also learned

00:33:56.980 and they'll never talk to me but i've talked to a lot of people who did oh yeah who did work for

00:34:02.700 them and i mean speaking of predatory people will slide into your dms but these grief accounts

00:34:09.760 will also pay to be able to be served to people going through grief

00:34:15.560 oh yeah and that's how the data work by the square peg in the round hole i mean i think that

00:34:23.040 you know if you told me that but instead of grief fluencing you were talking about um your line of

00:34:32.080 felt flowers that you were trying to market i don't think you'd get a gasp out of me no felt

00:34:38.680 flowers. But it's just, it feels skeezy. Of course it feels. I mean, it's all skeezy.

00:34:46.660 Is that a word that is relevant to this? I don't know, but it just doesn't feel good.

00:34:50.300 I would like to bring it back. I mean, I was researching how to buy digital ads for

00:34:57.260 Sicilian inheritance the other day. And I was like, okay, can I have it find me people

00:35:02.960 who have searched for cruises to sicily and then because if you're going to sicily like you might

00:35:09.760 want to read this novel i love this idea it's a good idea and it's very good yes and the answer

00:35:16.000 is yes and i was like oh jesus christ okay great see i can't imagine who i mean i would become

00:35:23.700 part of the problem well you can't that's what you can't i can find book promotion and read at

00:35:28.080 this point yeah yeah well I mean you I think you're the book is is just coming out now and

00:35:34.760 you've you've got a great tour in fact I just saw your tour on your Instagram yeah yeah I mean

00:35:40.060 excited but excited is a weird word it's like it's a weird but I also need like a beta blocker

00:35:44.500 that's what I was gonna ask because when you go I've talked to Nora McEnany about this because

00:35:49.440 so many of her her books have been about grief and her personal grief and she's like the tours

00:35:55.220 are actually exhausting because how do you do book promotion about a book that is not just so

00:36:01.380 personal but is about grief and you'll be absorbing other people's griefs like how are you how are you

00:36:06.060 how are you getting yourself ready for this this journey i hate the word journey i'm not saying it

00:36:10.720 so you know what i mean um mostly pull-ups and push-ups yeah reps yeah no i have um i think i

00:36:19.840 I have a weird I have the sort of this this will be like a complete yin yang, but I have the sort of photo negative, I suppose, of this experience because I have three books of personal essays that I've published and gone on tour for all of them and gone on then paperback tour for all of them, which sounds like very braggy.

00:36:38.840 But I'm just saying in the context of like, I got some experience with talking to people.

00:36:45.260 And even with those, and those are either positive stories or if they're sad, they're really sort of minor sort of daily tragedies, more of the Curb Your Enthusiasm milk.

00:36:57.120 And I've noticed that people will often tell me their stories, the equivalent.

00:37:02.940 Oh, when this happened to me, you know, oh, I, too, was a bridesmaid at this wedding or volunteered and turned out to be a terrible volunteer or whatever it is.

00:37:11.640 Yeah, I'm pretty sure I told you my bridesmaid story at one point in a bar.

00:37:14.560 Yeah, of course.

00:37:15.460 Yeah.

00:37:15.620 And then people just tell you.

00:37:16.840 And, you know, I mean, obviously, some of it is just presumed interest.

00:37:20.660 I mean, you wrote about the thing.

00:37:21.840 Obviously, you're interested.

00:37:23.920 But a lot of it is this feeling where I used to feel, oh, I hope that they're enjoying this experience enough.

00:37:32.240 because it's a big deal to ask somebody to come out to a reading. It's a big deal to ask somebody

00:37:36.340 to come out to ask someone to do anything. It's so much easier to do nothing. Just sit at home

00:37:41.160 and do nothing. And so, and so it's a, you know, I want to connect with people. I appreciate that

00:37:46.960 they're there. And I used to feel a little bit drained by it. Even these were for positive

00:37:52.620 stories, right? Funny stories. And then I realized it's more like I had the conch. I got to hold it.

00:38:01.480 they had an experience where I talked to them nonstop and they couldn't say anything.

00:38:06.640 And then now they have come to a reading to sort of close the loop. And now they have the conch.

00:38:12.840 And I think the same is going to be true and has already transferred to the way people are

00:38:17.700 already emailing me. The sort of, it's already, the book hasn't come out yet and a both fortunate

00:38:25.820 and upsetting deluge of people who have had people who either died suddenly. But I guess

00:38:32.340 I just feel like it's just the same thing. People now need to tell their stories. And I think that

00:38:39.480 weirdly, the training that I've experienced through those other three books has equipped me,

00:38:45.180 or I guess we'll find out, I don't know yet, but it has equipped me to

00:38:49.060 um be there for people listen to them react to them and go home without them

00:38:57.640 that's a great way of putting it yes i hope so it is well i mean i love the conch

00:39:04.960 the conch conch metaphor it's a conch that's a real that's a real have i said it wrong my whole

00:39:11.900 life put it on put it in that file so i i only say they say conch down they say conch in key west

00:39:20.780 where they've got a lot of conch things and so i have started saying conch but i said conch

00:39:27.540 for my entire life maybe it's british maybe the british say it differently just say that they do

00:39:32.560 yeah let's just say they do they say aluminium i think we're gonna say they say conch they say

00:39:37.520 Conch. No, I'm kidding.

00:39:38.540 Conch. Conch. Conch.

00:39:41.160 But yeah, but the point is, is that like, I just do feel like there's, I mean, we can use a word we can pronounce in a different analogy, which is more of like a baton pass.

00:39:49.460 Yeah. The talking stick.

00:39:50.720 Yeah, the talking stick. And so I think that that's so much of what it's, it's the same, it's the same thing. It's the same sort of feeling of wanting to be there for people and having this sort of incredible opportunity as an author to go on book tour because we are very much not rock stars and we don't, part of our art is not interacting with people.

00:40:17.540 yeah this is like a fun moment where you actually get to sort of read a crowd feel people's faces

00:40:23.260 you know feel like feel people's faces you're gonna be just like touching people's faces

00:40:29.960 hi my name is sloan crossley please come on my book tour where i will will put my fingers up

00:40:36.340 your nose i will massage your face or your money back from fsg not me not you

00:40:42.400 nope nope but yeah it's like i i think so i think that's part of it um yeah and it's interesting 0.81

00:40:51.920 to see the book touch people already the way it has is i don't know it's just it's personal for

00:40:59.820 them it's personal for me it means a lot to me and again the sort of transitive property here

00:41:06.740 is an incredibly specific story that is bound in a book. And I just can't imagine,

00:41:12.580 to use a mixed metaphor, that same like conductor connective tissue would apply to Instagram.

00:41:19.480 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that just, that, that sums, that really sums it up. It does.

00:41:24.940 But maybe it does. But maybe, well, and I, well, and I think for some, I think for some people it

00:41:29.380 does. And I think, but, but again, like there are, there are this, this woman in the flowery dress,

00:41:34.480 just rubbing it rubbing it back saying just hey first time's free first background i am not above

00:41:40.060 a tank top from that company i have two same you know same don't like i said you can sponsor us

00:41:47.820 you can sponsor us amazing grief is for people is is by the time this episode comes out it is

00:41:55.700 you can pre or you should pre-order it and it will come like immediately so nice yes yeah it'll come

00:42:02.040 immediately i will again i will pick your nose and i'll drop it off at your house yeah she said

00:42:06.820 you show up you're full service man totally full service exactly um so i'm not gonna tell people 0.90

00:42:13.140 where to find you on instagram but i will tell people everyone please order grief is for people

00:42:17.180 uh because sloan is hilarious and your writing is so beautiful and i think it's a book that

00:42:23.880 everyone will enjoy whether or not you've gone through it i hope that is true thank you so much

00:42:32.040 And that's all we have for today. You definitely want to buy Sloane's book, Grief is for People.

00:42:41.340 It's available at all of the bookplaces, and it's great. She's a beautiful writer. She's a

00:42:46.480 hilarious writer. And this is a book that will stick with you for a very long time.

00:42:52.120 And if you're at a book place, you know that you can always order a copy or nine of The Sicilian

00:42:57.540 inheritance. It's available. It's there. It's also there too. Thanks so much for being here

00:43:03.880 today with us. Go do something nice for yourself. You deserve it.

00:43:27.540 Thank you.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - February 29, 2024

Grief is for People with Sloane Crosley

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