00:04:27.560I mean, I think that all of my books are some way of working out my rage, my desires.
00:04:32.900I mean, obviously, Parisian heist is pretty much just a way to dream about being in Paris.
00:04:38.940But also, you know, there's a whole plot about dismantling terrible capitalist systems.
00:04:46.780And yeah, I think that as authors, we do often work our rage out on the page.
00:04:52.960And I was talking about this at the L.A. Festival of Books recently with a wonderful, wonderful panel that included Marissa Cascino and Sobi Strava.
00:05:02.080And we were talking about how the lack of accountability for men, particularly conservative men, but just men, like powerful men in the world, is driving us so insane.
00:05:12.640Like, it just it feels like we're being gaslit every single day.
00:05:17.740And our way of working through that is to create consequences on the page.
00:05:22.960Right. And I think, too, like the consequences are so much bigger or the I guess the effects of these men not getting, you know, any any accountability for any of their crimes, their misdoings, what have you, is bigger than it used to be.
00:05:40.140Right. I feel like anyone can look back and see. And, you know, I think I'm a little bit older than you, but but looking back at like elections 20 years ago, the stakes just were not as high.
00:05:52.500Like once Roe was overturned once, you know, I feel like the stakes are just so much higher now that, you know, I've got I've got kids who can vote now and I've got I've got adult children now who, you know, I just see the stakes like walking around.
00:06:08.140And and that just that changes it so much for me. And like so that just increases the level of rage that I feel towards these men.
00:06:17.380Yeah, no, it absolutely does. I mean, there's also such an intense level of rage just about our culture generally now.
00:06:24.920You and I became friends on the internet because we both report and write and talk about this filtered life, this social media life all the time, and what the ideas behind performative perfection have done to women and are continuing to hurt us in a toxic way and truly damaging the next generation of women.
00:06:52.000And talk to me a little bit about living in this world and then finding recovery beyond it.
00:07:00.000Yeah, I think, you know, I got stuck behind social media a lot, like a lot of people do.
00:07:05.400And, you know, really, it's easy to do.
00:07:08.560It's so easy to present the pretty things that are going on and really not reckoning with what's true.
00:07:16.720You know, I've experienced this multiple times in my life with, you know, recovering from alcoholism and, you know, showing people like, hey, this is what I posted on this day.
00:07:28.400What you didn't see that I was super drunk and like on the way home, I got a DUI, right?
00:07:32.000I think just radical honesty was a way to get through that for me.
00:07:36.780And when I was getting out of a multi-level marketing company, really looking at facts is really important.
00:07:44.320And I know that sounds just so basic on its face, but when you're someone who really, when you have critical thinking, like that's the number one thing that gets taken away in these systems and what these men rely on people, women, women carrying water for the patriarchy.
00:08:01.200it's like don't critically think it's this group think mentality and and it's really hard I think
00:08:07.840when you have put something out there to go back on it like that sunk cost fallacy of oh I've told
00:08:14.340you my life was really good but actually it's not um and you know how do you backtrack on that
00:08:20.340um so yeah I mean I think it just really is getting honest with yourself of you know this
00:08:25.360is what's true in my life this what's this is what's in front of me and this is what I'm putting
00:08:28.960out there and like, do these things match? And, you know, they didn't for me in a lot of ways.
00:08:35.240Yeah, but you also and you also built up a big following, you know, based off of having a
00:08:43.000picture perfect seeming life. When you started to show the cracks in that, what was the response
00:08:48.280from your audience? You know, it's funny. It was either, yeah, that's a big surprise or, yeah,
00:08:54.520we kind of knew no it's funny how you can you can hide certain things from certain people um
00:09:01.060and and with others it's more of a relief um it was more like okay we we wondered what was going
00:09:07.480on like we could see sometimes you just can't hide the cracks especially from people really
00:09:12.300close to you but what I found was like you know kind of getting more honest of course there are
00:09:16.880those people who just there for the party or just there for the the pretty filtered photos and you
00:09:22.660know who kind of fall away but the people who really are with you who you know believe in you
00:09:28.500and love you you know really makes those relationships so much better yeah no it's it's
00:09:33.900true uh but i do think that there i do think there's a lot of people who who are often there
00:09:39.060just for the the pretty things and then when life is not so pretty they they kind of fall away much
00:09:45.180like much like friends in real life honestly so you but you have been very honest about your journey
00:09:51.460through sobriety and your experience inside MLM culture. I'm obsessed with MLMs, as you know.
00:09:58.760Talk me through how you got sucked in and how you emerged out of it.
00:10:03.980Yeah. I mean, I got sucked in really through the lie of, just like we're seeing now with
00:10:09.160all this Trad Wife stuff, it's you can have it all. You can have everything at the same time.0.64
00:10:14.860You can have everything you want. And it was really big early 2010s, like boss babe culture,
00:10:20.300you know lean in and the rise of Facebook and people selling you stuff on social media
00:10:26.940I was like wow you know I've been home for all these years there's no way I can go back to work
00:10:32.320you know I was a chemist before I had kids I had five little kids at home and I thought oh this
00:10:37.640would be easy this would be fun and I all of a sudden had this like huge network of people I'm
00:10:43.600like oh wow all these people are my friends all these people selling the same thing are my friends
00:10:47.700And it was this camaraderie. And I think at the heart of it, I was lacking community. I was lacking connection. I was totally lacking a sense of self. And it seemed to fill all of those buckets for me, but it was fake.
00:11:04.240And, you know, even though I did, like, make some money and I rose in the ranks, I started to see that it wasn't happening for other people and, you know, that I really was kind of selling a lie.
00:11:20.140And, you know, then I really had to reckon with that, like, well, if this isn't true, what is it?
00:11:26.780And I started researching it a little bit more and reading those things that the MLM leaders told me not to read and getting outside sources of information and escaping that bubble.
00:11:39.280But it's really insidious because, you know, MLM culture really captures a lot of other little microcosms like wellness and other little grifts.
00:11:49.860and so if you're a person who's a little bit you know crunchy you know you want like natural
00:11:55.400alternatives well you've got something over here that you can sell and and if you are really into
00:12:00.520beauty well here's some makeup you can sell and I feel like it's just it kind of encroaches in a
00:12:04.940lot of different things and it offers a lot of things that women especially stay-at-home moms
00:12:10.700like might be missing out on yeah I think that a lot of these kind of toxic groups that attract
00:12:19.260often new mothers are really preying on the vulnerability and the loneliness of that period
00:12:26.840of your life because we are so desperate for community, and it can be really hard to find.
00:12:32.920I love the idea that it takes a village, but finding your village can often feel impossible.
00:12:39.080Yes, and that village isn't necessarily, you know, the same village that's going to join your team
00:12:45.240or byproducts from you is not necessarily the one who's going to bring you soup when you're sick
00:12:49.400or take your kids to school. And so it's not necessarily the right group of people. It's not
00:12:55.780necessarily who you need. And if it is, then you're targeting these people who actually really
00:13:02.300love you with a business opportunity that's not going to help them. So it looks good from every
00:13:07.540angle when it's really not. Exactly. Exactly. So you came out the other side of this. How did that
00:13:14.220go for you? So it was really because of COVID. I was really starting to see the light in like
00:13:21.6402018, 2019. And I backed off in a big way. Like I was, I told everybody on my team that I wasn't
00:13:28.400really going to be selling anymore or doing anything. And I would just kind of slowly
00:13:31.300collect a paycheck until it dried up. And then at the end of 2019, you know, I still like hit
00:13:39.080the highest rank in the company without doing anything. And it was just so right there in my
00:13:44.500face that this was on the backs of other people. And so I fully terminated, I quit. And I really
00:13:49.740thought that was it. Like, I'm just going to walk away and just be done with it, learn from it.
00:13:55.280And then when COVID happened, all of a sudden, we saw all of this grifting just taking on a new,
00:14:02.880whole new personality. It was, okay, you're stuck at home here, sell our essential oils.
00:14:07.360And then glomming onto all the COVID misinformation, you know, use your ivermectin and use this peptide cream or whatever. Just really being so exploitative and then taking out PPP loans that were not available to MLM distributors. Just so much grifting, so much fraud. And I was like, okay, I can't be quiet about this.
00:14:31.920And so I just started writing about it and I was like, hey, maybe I'll, you know, I'll blog about this. I'll write about it. I don't know. And then I was like, actually, I'm just going to, that's my next book because I'm going to write, I'm going to write about MLMs and my experience and what I'm seeing now and how just all of this maha and misinformation is really, it's just feeding off itself.
00:14:54.900this cannibalism of like supplements and misinformation and, you know, these crazy
00:15:00.740QAnon theories. And I mean, it was wild. And so that's that's really where I was like, I'm going
00:15:06.040to write about this and I need to like kind of sound the alarm, I guess. I mean, I want a murder
00:15:10.900mystery set inside an MLM is what I want. Right. Which is not that far fetched. Like, I feel like
00:15:18.440that could happen. People do everything to like get the top rank or get the trip or whatever it
00:15:23.620is. Like, I can totally see that happening. I mean, I think it probably already has happened.
00:15:28.700But as I always say, and as someone who writes a lot of murdery women, I think women are just0.86
00:15:33.480better at getting away with murder than men. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Like, if it's happened,0.94
00:15:38.320then we'll never know about it. No, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Let's take a quick break. And
00:15:43.840when we get back, I want to talk a little bit more about burning down the patriarchy
00:15:49.260and what you think we can and should be doing right now.
00:16:01.880What do you do on a daily basis to try to burn down the patriarchy?
00:16:06.400Well, unfortunately, it doesn't pay well, but I share snarky memes.
00:16:11.120And, you know, I try to inform as much as I can in the little bubble that I have in the world.
00:16:19.000You know, I wear my feminism proudly. I vote with my whole chest and, you know, talk about it as often as I can. And I think the number one thing I do is really inform my kids, especially my daughters, about just the rights that are on the line for them.
00:16:39.800You know, I was the first to stock up on on Plan B and, you know, abortion pills, knowing that I have, you know, women who might need reproductive care in the future that they can't get.
00:16:52.300And, you know, I'm so, so loud and proud about advocating for myself and for my family, because if anything, in the last two years, it's like you don't think it's going to get worse than it does.
00:17:06.160Yeah. No, I mean, honestly, we were just at this point where I'm like, it can't get any. Oh, my God. I know. I didn't even think that was possible.
00:17:14.480I know. Yesterday, you know, there was something about RFK Jr. promoting tanning beds again. And and someone said, oh, well, next he's going to he's going to suggest, you know, smoking.
00:17:25.380And the next thing was how he was promoting these flavored vapes. I'm like, see, it's just if you can think it, you can make it happen.
00:17:32.900If you can think it, I think that RFK Jr. is just the epitome of gross.0.97
00:17:41.080I mean, he is just such and he's just like a perfect image of vaginal dryness.0.99
00:24:25.420I think, you know, my kids are a little older.
00:24:28.620And I see such a difference from my oldest, who's 21, and the way things were when he was little.
00:24:36.340Like, very much like no kids had smartphones until high school.
00:24:39.480um and versus my youngest son who's 14 and you know had an ipad you know like he he saw ipads0.98
00:24:47.100when he was like a baby and he was born with one they come out of your vagina with them now
00:24:51.820smartphone yeah they come out with a smartphone the placenta the placenta makes it yes i i think0.96
00:24:58.120they're i don't know if it's dumber i also think covid changed a lot of things i think covid was
00:25:04.440such a detriment in so many ways to so many kids because they had to rely on devices to like
00:25:09.860connect with teachers and people and that really affected kids and depending how old they were
00:25:14.980I feel like mine were old enough um other than my little guy like that they they already had those
00:25:22.480those relationships and relationship building and knew how to make a phone call and start a
00:25:26.680conversation what I see in younger kids now is like they they aren't developing those skills and
00:25:31.800And with chat GPT and everything, that freaks me the fuck out because they will never, it's not like adults who are like losing the ability to critically think and write a sentence in an email. It's these kids who are never going to develop it because they're using it. And that's the kind of shit that scares me.
00:25:49.340But as far as like politics and stuff, I think my adult children, teenagers are like kind of smarter than I was at that age politically because unfortunately they've had to be more aware and they've been made more aware.0.99
00:26:05.480You know, I didn't have the news in my face.
00:26:07.180It was like the five o'clock news was it.
00:26:18.100but I think they are way more informed. So I don't know. It's hard to say if that's a good
00:26:24.680thing or a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's also tricky. I think that I'm
00:26:32.780less informed now, mostly because I can't stomach most of the major news sources. And I do think
00:26:40.300most people are getting their news from social media at this point. So yeah, it's not a great
00:26:47.020thing for any of us when did you give your kids smartphones um so my oldest was in ninth grade
00:26:54.220um and then all of my girls were in middle school during COVID they didn't have them until then it
00:27:00.820was like well now I guess you have to have a an iPad which they may basically used for school
00:27:05.520um they didn't really get on I don't even know if Snapchat was a thing then um you know they
00:27:12.100got on musically which is now tiktok and like did videos and stuff but my youngest um he didn't
00:27:18.740have his well he got his own smartphone in fifth grade but he's never been on social media so that
00:27:25.500was kind of the the i don't know the bargaining chip we had it's like you can contact people you
00:27:31.480can call people but um you know and you got parental restrictions on the internet but like
00:27:36.940you, he doesn't have Snapchat. He doesn't have, doesn't have Instagram. And yeah, I think every
00:27:41.880kid is different. Um, I've always used the screen time stuff, but, but some kids just have a better
00:27:47.800grasp of it than, than others. I'm, I'm just really glad I didn't have to decide when they
00:27:52.180were in kindergarten, which I know some kids have smartphones that young. Like, I don't know.
00:27:57.700There are kindergartners in my, my daughter's class who have smartphones. Yeah. And it's so
00:28:03.140hard because then you're competing with other parents who, you know, how can you say when
00:28:07.980they're in a sport and the only way the sport communicates is like through Instagram. To me,
00:28:12.520I'm like, oh, that's so, it's like you can't not have them on. It's such a hard call to make.
00:28:18.840It's a really hard call to make. Yeah. I'm not looking forward to making those calls. I mean,
00:28:24.060for now, we have these really high powered walkie talkies that stretch through most of
00:28:29.660our neighborhood and we give those to our kids sometimes yeah yeah I love it I mean it looks
00:28:36.180like it looks like a Zach Morris cell phone is what it looks like oh god Zach Morris no that's
00:28:41.380so that's that's so great yeah I mean I think it it totally depends on the kid and like obviously
00:28:48.120the youngest ones always get away with murder my oldest is like oh my god Rowan has different
00:28:53.540parents like he says that about our youngest like he has different parents than I had because
00:28:57.520weird we've just given up at this point you know but oh yeah oh yeah I can't even imagine getting
00:29:03.300to five to be honest because my third one and she does whatever she wants but I'm also so good at0.56
00:29:08.660ignoring her we were talking about this and she like she's a three-nager so she's the worst and1.00
00:29:14.540you know she just like nothing makes sense right and she's just like she's pissed if she has to0.99
00:29:21.500wear a certain shoe and we just we just leave her we're like okay you do you do you sit there and
00:29:25.740scream we can go about the rest of our lives whereas with the first one we're like oh my gosh
00:29:29.920how can i accommodate the fact that you hate this shoe yes and it's so distressing like when your
00:29:34.960first one was so distressing i know oh my gosh yeah oh my god yeah and then yeah by the fifth
00:29:40.160i was like where's the baby yeah yeah yeah i'm like what how did you always know you wanted five
00:29:46.440kids no um no how did it happen how did how do you end up with five uh okay so my husband always
00:29:54.560wanted like three or four and I wanted two um neither of us came from big families and and I
00:30:00.500was like eh maybe three we'll see and so the first one was a surprise and then the second one was very
00:30:08.880planned the third one I was like well okay we have two now we'll just wait and see well of course I
00:30:13.960got pregnant immediately um and then the fourth was a drunken Christmas party um and the time we
00:30:23.260got to the fifth you know we had a boy and three little girls and my husband always wanted he has
00:30:29.560a brother who's seven years younger than him he always wanted my oldest to have a brother and I
00:30:33.340was like you know what we can go for one more and if it's a girl like no matter what you're getting1.00
00:30:40.080a vasectomy like like tomorrow like and it was a boy so it worked out so yeah I would not like
00:30:46.480suggest going with my plan but um but yeah that's that's how it happened yeah
00:30:51.400i mean look i we had a third because we had a drunken night at an elton john concert in
00:31:00.060oh elton john yeah that's awesome yeah in fargo north dakota uh so we were either going to name
00:31:07.820her fargo or eliza john for elton actually so i know i know that is the name the the uh
00:31:17.140villain origin story for for Eliza okay let's take a quick break and when we get back I want
00:31:22.740to talk about summer reads what should you be packing in your beach bag okay
00:31:26.760okay we are back give me give me the plot summary of the revenge party like you gave me the high
00:31:42.540level but like what's the nitty-gritty what is actually happening in this book
00:31:45.660so a wife discovers her husband isn't who he says he is which you know happens all are they ever
00:31:55.100are they ever this is very bell burden yeah yes yes um and she really tries to figure out how
00:32:02.760she can get out of this marriage by keeping her uh you know kids happy and her family intact1.00
00:32:09.600A happy feminist rage banger. I love that. I'll add that to my list.1.00
00:32:15.560My Mother's Daughter by Tracy Clark Flory. So it is the true story of Tracy and her older sister,
00:32:24.680who was born from her mother being sent away to a maternity home when she was a teenager,
00:32:32.880and how, you know, there was a lot of shame and stigma and all these patriarchal standards,
00:32:37.620like everything built into that her mom kept it a secret and you know they brushed it under the rug
00:32:43.260and how tracy connected with this older sister who she never knew about later in life and really how
00:32:50.740that like healed her and it's all about their reunion and really the history kind of behind
00:32:56.620that structure of these these maternity homes for lack of a better word you know how awful it was0.98
00:33:03.560going to get an all rooted in shame and purity culture and religion and etc etc you know the0.86
00:33:10.220same story is as a lot of patriarchal structures made me cry in the best way i read it all in
00:33:15.860basically one one sitting couldn't put it down really good the next one is like follow subscribe
00:33:23.140by fortessa elatifi and that is about the children of momfluencers now that they have
00:33:32.440grown into adults. Really the effects of like what what this did to kids being raised under
00:33:39.740the public eye and how they had no privacy and, you know, would get recognized at the store when
00:33:45.980they went out. Just how that all worked as well as like the finances behind it, how much money was
00:33:51.380coming in and what it's like for kids who, you know, their parents are also their boss and whether
00:33:57.540they're getting paid or not. You know, so many states don't have regulations. Anyway, super
00:34:01.580interesting and also was not like shaming in any way like it's very informative without like raking1.00
00:34:08.660these moms over the coals for for what they did like you know really the thought that they thought
00:34:15.900they were doing a good thing and maybe they were maybe they weren't and how some of these kids have
00:34:20.600come out really talking speaking out against the industry and some are still all in and whether
00:34:27.800there there's a choice there like whether you can consent to that or not when your parents put you
00:34:32.660on the internet when you're a child it's just all about the ethics and it's super super interesting
00:34:37.500and also reads you know it's hard to do non-fiction that's so informative and it's not
00:34:43.380boring it's it's very interesting and it reads almost like fiction in that way but you you know
00:34:50.600with you realize that it's it's it's all true it's all real people and so it's really good read
00:34:56.840And then the next one is also nonfiction. I'm on a little nonfiction kick lately. One Bad Mother by E.J. Dixon. And this one, I'm actually in this one. So it's all about different mothers, different, you know, quote unquote, bad mothers.
00:35:14.960again like the influencer mom the the MLM mom and that's how you know I'm that's why I was
00:35:23.620interviewed for the book super interesting just about how women are vilified whether or not they
00:35:30.500deserve it and how women get stuck in these again patriarchal systems and get caught in these things
00:35:37.320that they really think will make them better women, better mothers, and how they get out of0.95
00:35:46.320these systems, if they get out of these systems. Spoiler, I did. And yeah, it's really fun. It's0.86
00:35:52.520a fun read. It's informative, and it's funny. It's really funny, which again, hard to do in
00:35:58.240nonfiction, in my opinion. Really enjoy that one. I just finished Go Gentle by Maria Semple.
00:36:25.840You really, the main character is super likable.
00:36:28.440What I keep telling my friends is that, you know, she's a divorced woman in her 50s.0.99
00:36:33.960And she's trying to take over an entire floor of the Ansonia with her late midlife coven of women who support each other and help each other.
00:36:43.540It's just a subplot, but it's a part of it that I really liked.
00:36:49.760I also just started One of Us by Elizabeth Day on the recommendation of my friend Flannery, who runs Blue Bird & Co., the bookstore down in Crozet, Virginia.