00:00:00.000hey y'all joe here and you are listening to under the influence today we're talking about
00:00:10.100something that i think has really been co-opted by the right and i don't like that i don't like
00:00:14.860that for any of us it's the idea of feminine energy not the social media version the trad
00:00:21.540wife version or the erica kirk turning point version uh i don't like that version i don't
00:00:27.540like the definition of femininity telling women they need to be quieter, smaller, softer, or less
00:00:32.780themselves or less than men. No, no. To me, I think we get to redefine what feminine actually
00:00:39.020means. And my guest today is Sabrina Benderie. She's the author of The Feminine Code. She's not
00:00:44.540handing women another set of rules to follow because we're over rules, okay? We're in our1.00
00:00:48.380post-rule era right now. Instead, she's asking the bigger question, which is why are so many smart
00:00:55.740and successful women still making themselves smaller in the world? Why are they still people1.00
00:01:01.080pleasing? Why are they still acting like pick me girls? Sabrina talks a lot in this conversation0.76
00:01:05.080about something that really fascinated me. It's the balancing of light feminine energy with dark
00:01:09.900feminine energy. And I like the idea of dark feminine energy. I do. We're going to get into0.93
00:01:13.660what that is. It does not mean what you think it does. I was originally like, ooh, is this some
00:01:19.020Buffy the Vampire Slayer shit? Because I'm here for that. But no, it's something else entirely.0.99
00:01:23.100it is it's about boundaries okay it's not about rage it's about self-respect and it's about
00:01:28.240learning that compassion without boundaries can actually be self-destructive if you've ever found
00:01:34.100yourself shrinking to make another person comfortable you are gonna love love love this
00:01:38.680conversation hey sabrina i am so so happy to have you here today thank you so much for having me i'm
00:01:51.000so happy to be here. I mean, you write and talk about so many of the things that I also write and
00:01:58.560talk about. So I can't believe we're only just meeting for the first time. But I really want
00:02:05.460to hear in your words, talk to me a little bit about what the Feminine Code means.1.00
00:02:12.380okay the feminine code is a new operating system it is not rules this is the anti like rules women1.00
00:02:22.240need to follow good because i don't have rules anymore i'm so done with rules no no rules this
00:02:28.000is a new mode of being because as women we have been so conditioned and i talk about this a lot
00:02:35.140in the book to be chosen above anything else and i work with some of the most successful women out
00:02:42.100there, women who run hedge funds, women who are surgeons. I also work with teachers and nurses.
00:02:46.340It's not about like the exact profession and see these smart, incredible women completely1.00
00:02:52.440abandoning themselves for the sake of being chosen typically by like piece of shit guy or1.00
00:02:58.560selling themselves out for the sake of a relationship. And this happened to me as it's0.99
00:03:03.340happened to most women. And I was just for so many years was wondering why, why, why did I stay?
00:03:11.400Yeah, granted, he did a lot. But I was a willing participant. And why is that? So the book is
00:03:19.440really about understanding why we get into these toxic dynamics. What leads us to this place? Why
00:03:25.720do we stay? And how do we take our power back? Not to sound cliche, but that is what it's about.
00:03:31.360It's about feeling empowered again. Because there's nothing more disempowering than selling
00:03:36.240yourself out for the sake of a relationship. Truly, truly. There is an Instagram meme going
00:03:41.800around that I'm obsessed with that I must participate in. That's I'm not dressing for
00:03:47.120the male gaze. G-A-Z-E. I'm dressing for the male gaze. G-A-Y-S. I love that. I love it so much0.99
00:03:57.480because it also just like sums up my 40s for me. Because I was also I was such a pick me girl for
00:04:03.980so long, I think, you know, in my 20s and 30s, and I was freaking miserable. And I was in so
00:04:09.480many toxic relationships. I don't even like, I couldn't even recognize that girl as me right now,
00:04:15.280because I feel like, you know, I've come through it. But I also think that culture just kind of
00:04:21.760trains us, you know, that we that we should, that we should be that we should want to be chosen by
00:04:27.440men, you know, that that is the ultimate goal here. And I love that you're dismantling that
00:04:33.480And also taking back the word feminine, because I think that the word feminine has been very co-opted by the pick me girls and and also, you know, by the right in a lot of ways to mean submissive and quiet.
00:04:47.180And that's that's not what it means. I think it means embracing ourselves. Right.
00:04:52.300Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought that up because this book also really touches on dark feminine energy because too much of us are living in the light.
00:05:02.860And this is not about, I honestly think women should live how they want to, if you want to be
00:05:08.000at home. And I, I have friends who are pretty much submissive to their husbands. Good for you.0.87
00:05:14.140Godspeed. I would, I don't know what I would have to do with myself if at the grocery store,
00:05:17.700I had to call my husband, like ask permission to buy tomatoes. That's not for me, but like other
00:05:21.260people can do that and be totally fine with it. In terms of feminine energy, too many of us have1.00
00:05:27.060been conditioned to be in our light feminine energy. Not that light feminine energy is a bad0.93
00:05:31.200thing. This is the giving, the nurturing. But the fact is, and this doesn't get said enough,0.64
00:05:38.640compassion without boundaries is self-destruction. And I learned this the hard way. When you are
00:05:43.740pouring out into somebody who is not meeting you where you're at, where you see the potential in
00:05:50.560someone, a guy who is down on his luck, he's struggling, he's depressed, he's having issues,
00:05:54.960and you're like, I can help him. I can help him. I can fix him. And then that will get me his love
00:06:01.960and his loyalty and we'll have this amazing relationship. What happens instead? She pours
00:06:06.500herself out, does everything. Maybe he gets back on his feet and he leaves her for someone else
00:06:10.540because now he's feeling strong and empowered. He doesn't want to be with the woman who sees him
00:06:14.080as a weakling. He wants to start over with someone shiny and new. I lived through this
00:06:18.440and I've seen this story, every variation of this story that there is. So that is the problem with
00:06:24.760a light feminine energy. It's too much of that over-accommodating, over-giving. Now, some of that1.00
00:06:30.780is good and is important, but we need the counter, which is the dark feminine energy. The dark1.00
00:06:35.380feminine, this is not me. I'm so excited for this. Do you have t-shirts that say dark feminine? I'm1.00
00:06:39.120tapping into my dark feminine energy because if not. You know what? I have never thought about
00:06:43.540merch before ever, but the other night I was laying in bed and all of a sudden I was like,
00:06:47.020I think I need to make some merch now. I think that it's the time. It's the time. I will make
00:06:51.580this merch with you. I am here for this merch. Do it. Yes, let's do it. It's not being the black
00:06:56.520cat. This is not this is not that TikTok performative version of like, I don't care. I
00:07:01.640don't care. This is about being boundary. And this is about embracing the parts of yourself
00:07:06.660that maybe are not necessarily feminine. The part of you that does get angry. The part of you that
00:07:13.120does have unpleasant emotions that don't fit into the will be a good girl and good girls don't act
00:07:18.800this way and you have to be be quiet and be pleasing. And the dark feminine energy keeps1.00
00:07:24.360that light feminine energy in check. It is I will not pour myself out for anyone else. I will not0.97
00:07:30.680take care of the emotional well-being of anyone unless I gave birth to those people. That's
00:07:35.260my boundary. Unless I gave birth to you, I am not your caretaker.
00:07:41.000Yeah, no, I think that is so, so important, you know, and I've been I we have so many episodes
00:07:46.080about this this summer because i think so many of us are just fed up we're fed up and we want we
00:07:51.560want to take back so much of our energy uh that has gone into caring for other people that did
00:07:59.080not eject themselves from our bodies uh and you know being overly nice right um yeah overly nice
00:08:08.060and accommodating and making ourselves smaller i could not agree with you more like if someone
00:08:12.860wants to be submissive to their husband, that's amazing. I want everyone to have choices that make
00:08:18.020them happy. My goal is choices. And that's my version of feminism is that everyone gets to
00:08:23.860make that choice. But for that woman that does choose that, I also want her to have her own 401k1.00
00:08:28.980and I want her husband to give her an income. So. Yes. I mean, I think that the book right now,1.00
00:08:33.880Strangers by Belle Burden was, I mean, was a cautionary tale. Obviously, she had a lot of
00:08:39.180means, but for women to pay attention to their financial situation and to not ever be fully0.98
00:09:04.980and like how how could you possibly possibly have closed your eyes to so much of this but1.00
00:09:12.340it happens to so many women i mean it happened to my own mom and you know so many women think
00:09:17.460the finances are not my purview they're my husband's purview and hopefully that is changing
00:09:22.320but i think so much of reclaiming our our power means we just need the money to support ourselves
00:09:29.600if we had to okay like absolutely i love my husband i love sharing money with him but like
00:09:35.860also i got my own money and i know where all of his is right because i've seen this unfortunately
00:09:42.220play out women who are absolutely trapped like you need to leave i can't leave the car is in his
00:09:47.600name everything is in his name the house is in his name i have nothing and i don't have family
00:09:51.920And that is a horrifying situation to be in. So absolutely, you have to pay attention and not and end up like that. But yeah, that's a yeah.
00:10:02.960And that is just part of of keeping keeping our power. And I'm really interested in this balance of light feminine power and dark feminine power, because, you know, to me, I have a child who's very obsessed with Star Wars.
00:10:15.940and so it feels like the balance in the force right and yeah okay yeah you're like you're like
00:10:21.880maybe um but i mean i know i i don't i'm not so up on star wars right my husband is obsessed and
00:10:26.540when we were dating he was like just watch one movie with me and he i i like kind of understood
00:10:31.640i mean it's like you know you need you need both you need this balance of the dark and the light
00:10:36.260you know to keep everything in balance uh and i think that is is really important you know to tap
00:10:43.540into, you know, both sides of ourselves. I also think it's really important to shift how we think
00:10:50.380about masculinity in the same way, right? Like, you know, men are often taught that, you know,
00:10:56.300the light, the light forces, the so-called soft emotions are not for them. And I think that they
00:11:03.420are also often vastly out of balance with their masculinity. So out of balance. And I do want
00:11:09.760want to clarify that because this book in no way is saying that men are evil and men have inflicted
00:11:16.220all of this on us. No, I love men. I love good men. I love men. And for the first time in my
00:11:21.320career, my 17 year career, I actually started working with male clients because a lot of them
00:11:25.620read Detach, my book that's behind me that came out last September and really resonated with it.
00:11:30.520And they're suffering too, because they're conditioned in a whole different way.
00:11:33.480They're conditioned to be, don't be soft, be masculine, be tough, don't show emotions,
00:11:37.740but they still have all those emotions like they're they're still in there and it's just
00:11:42.060they get repressed and then it comes out as anger rather than what it actually is that's why they
00:11:47.240say anger is a secondary emotion so I think that it goes on both sides we both sexes have been
00:11:52.660conditioned to be a certain way and I think that we are both absolutely out of balance and that's
00:11:58.560why so many people are suffering so much and struggling so much when it comes to love and
00:12:02.660relationships. I know. It's so true. It's so true. I want to take a quick break. And when we get
00:12:07.720back, I'd love to talk about your own story and how you came to this work. Okay. How much time do
00:12:15.160you have? Gosh, so much. So much. Actually, not that much because I have to go do last day of
00:12:19.660school things. Okay, we are back. So talk to me a little bit about your own story. Like,
00:12:31.600how did you come to these realizations in your own life? Because none of it's easy. Figuring this
00:12:36.060out is not easy. No, not at all. I mean, I've always been interested in human behavior. In
00:12:41.520college, I double majored in English and psychology. I was kind of inspired by Carrie
00:12:45.480from Sex and the City. I was like, I want to do that. I want to write about relationships.
00:12:48.860This wasn't a job back then. This is pre-social media, pre, you know, I'm aging myself, but pre
00:12:53.720all of this stuff. In college, I had an extremely toxic relationship with somebody who I won't
00:13:00.060diagnosed, but somebody with a lot of very narcissistic traits. We won't use the term
00:13:03.700narcissist, even though my therapist says that that's what it was. And for example, and this is
00:13:08.480the prologue of my book, The Feminine Code. I really recount what happened in this relationship.
00:13:13.420For example, he told me to my face that he chose me because he knew he could never breed. That was
00:13:19.400his word, breed with someone like me. So he would never get too attached. And you would think that
00:13:25.600in that moment, I would say, well, okay, I'm leaving. Like, goodbye. You don't think I'm
00:13:29.620worthy of having children with? You think I'm defective? That's basically what he said. He said,
00:13:33.720well, you have too many issues. I would never want to raise family with someone like you.
00:13:37.820But rather than leave, I worked even harder to get this guy to love me. I was like, no, no,
00:13:43.200now I need to just show him how motherly I am and how kind and how giving. And things like that
00:13:48.380would happen often. But then what would also happen is he would say something horrible like
00:13:52.780that. But then he would be like, you're one in a million. You're the only one who understands me.
00:13:56.780I would be lost without you. And he was struggling. He was in debt and he was depressed. And I just
00:14:02.280tried to fix him and I poured everything into it. What happened to me? And he cheated on me and he
00:14:06.800left me for someone else. And in the aftermath, I went, I was all light feminine. Did he breed
00:14:11.960with that person? Did they breed? No, they broke up also. And he ended up alone and I
00:14:16.860breeded four children. Okay. Yes. Yes. In that relationship, I was all light feminine energy.
00:14:25.340And then after it, it killed something in me. Something in me died after that. And it sent me
00:14:31.200to the dark side where I was cold and unfeeling. And I'd even take responsibility for being awful
00:14:36.800to the guys in my life because I mean, I say I was the villain in their origin stories.
00:14:42.040I was all dark and it took me a long time to integrate. Now I got back in touch with that ex
00:14:47.440because I couldn't let it go. I couldn't find closure. I couldn't find peace. So I got back
00:14:51.920in touch with him and very long story short, we ended up starting a blog together, like a women's
00:14:57.040lifestyle blog. We ended up going into business together. I ended up falling back in love with
00:15:01.120him. He ended up being the same type of person. At this point in time, I just wanted to write
00:15:05.920about relationships and figure it out. I was not coming from a place of expertise at all. I was
00:15:10.520this like 22-year-old dating in New York City. But I realized that so many women were resonating1.00
00:15:14.940with it. And everyone was seeing themselves in my confusion and my frustration. And so that's
00:15:19.560where it started. And then he would write an Ask a Guy column. And through that, I kind of started
00:15:24.100understanding male behavior. That became my focus for a while. My first book was 10 Things Every
00:15:28.920Woman Needs to Know About Men. Then over the years, I really started to wise up. And I was
00:15:33.080doing a lot of work on myself. And I really struggled so much with self-worth and self-destruction
00:15:38.420and just treating myself horribly and then wondering why the guys I was dating were treating
00:15:43.680me horribly because it was a reflection of my relationship with myself. Along the way,
00:15:48.600I was writing about it and then I got myself together in time and shared that as well. And
00:15:53.180then women started reaching out to me like, can I work with you one-on-one? So I became certified
00:15:57.220as a coach and started doing that one-on-one training. And yeah, I mean, 17 years in and
00:16:02.440I'm still at it. And in that time, I did get married and have children. I've been married for
00:16:08.300almost 12 years now. And so it's really been quite an evolution. Tons of ups and downs. I don't work
00:16:13.180with the ex anymore, by the way. I mean, that I had that was that is quite an evolution. That was
00:16:17.880really my most toxic relationship ever was the working relationship with him, working with
00:16:22.120someone like that. He it was just he he controlled everything about what I was allowed to do, what I
00:16:28.580was not allowed to do. Anytime I would start having success on my own, he would diminish that
00:16:33.120you'd be nothing without me. You wouldn't know anything without me. You would never succeed
00:16:36.660without me. So I didn't walk away because I was like, oh, maybe he's right. Maybe I will never
00:16:40.620have success. Of course, I've had more success than ever without him. But at the time, it really
00:16:45.860did feel like I was stuck in some sort of toxic marriage and it was awful. And yeah, that should
00:16:54.280be like a memoir someday. Maybe that will be my next book. Maybe that's going to be your next
00:16:57.680book. Who knows? But I think so many women can relate to that because I dated a succession of
00:17:03.800narcissists I mean for so long so long I still have nightmares about them I do like I still have
00:17:08.840these nightmares where I'm you know in a relationship with these guys they're not paying
00:17:13.240attention to me or they're insulting me and putting me down and I wake up in the morning
00:17:17.380and I roll over and I'm like oh thank god I'm on the other side of that right it lives in your
00:17:23.460body it lives in your body in a way that that regular breakups it's not the same when I the
00:17:29.680reason The Feminine Code was born is I did not plan to write two books in one year. That was
00:17:35.040talk about pouring yourself out and being exhausted. After I wrote Detached, and there
00:17:39.720was one section, and it was a last minute edition on detaching from a narcissist. And throughout the
00:17:45.020writing of the book, even though I'm touching on painful things, I was pretty detached and
00:17:49.640regulated. But when I got to the narcissist section, there was a venom in my veins. And I
00:17:54.260I was like, I can't believe this still lives in me after all this time. And then those excerpts
00:17:59.540started to go really viral. And so my publishers were like, you know, how about you write another
00:18:03.980book really focusing on toxic dynamics and why it happens and those narcissistic relationships
00:18:08.820because people are having such a strong reaction to it. So yeah, it lives in you. And eventually
00:18:14.800it gets quieter and quieter. But for a very long time, that relationship and what it did to me
00:18:19.680was the dominant force in my being, in my nervous system, in the way that I operated.
00:18:26.080Was it hard for you to then be in a relationship that was not like that? To reprogram yourself,
00:18:33.020to be with someone who accepted, I'm assuming your husband now is a good guy who accepts you
00:18:38.500and loves you. He's such a good guy. He's the best guy. He's like so, so good and so wonderful.
00:18:43.040um yeah yes it was hard and yes I almost sabotaged so many times even the week before our wedding
00:18:49.860I almost sabotaged I don't think that I could fully trust it so there was a lot that first of
00:18:54.960all I ended up marrying my high school ex-boyfriend so he and I had had a history and he did break up
00:18:59.480with me and I was devastated by that yeah but he was a child okay he was a total child not his fault
00:19:05.720and we weaved in and out of each other's lives for like a decade and it was really after I
00:19:10.080experienced this pivotal point in time in my life where I really, really threw myself into
00:19:16.220self-development and fixing myself. I was 29. And I think I had this, this wake up moment of,
00:19:22.160oh my God, I'm not just growing out of this. I think I thought that with the passage of time,
00:19:26.300I would wise up and one day I would just wake up an adult, but instead I was still making the same1.00
00:19:31.220stupid mistakes. And it was, it was even more embarrassing because I was a relationship writer0.99
00:19:35.500and I was working with people and I was helping them and I was behaving in a way I would never
00:19:39.600give this advice to anybody. So I was like, oh, so I'm a fraud, basically. And then I just had
00:19:44.740what I call the summer of me. I took a break from dating. I was too thirsty. I was too pick me,
00:19:50.300even though this was way before that was even a term. I was basing too much of my value on being
00:19:54.940chosen, on how men were viewing me. I spent almost a year chasing after this emotionally
00:19:59.520avoiding guy who was perfectly nice in telling me, you're great. I just don't want to be in a
00:20:04.080relationship with you. And I just couldn't accept it. And I couldn't let it go. And I was like,
00:20:07.860I need to understand why I'm like this. So I really worked on my self-worth. I really started
00:20:12.300challenging those negative beliefs. I had done a lot of like therapy and hypnosis and meditation,
00:20:17.620all different things. And I really, really started to implement. So by the time we got to the end of
00:20:21.420the summer, I was feeling really, really good about myself and worthy for the first time. I
00:20:25.560really felt like I deserve good things. And I had never felt that way before. I always felt like,
00:20:30.100no, I deserve for bad things to happen to me. I don't deserve happiness. That's not in the cards
00:20:33.740for me. So then I started dating my husband. And in the beginning, like our first few dates were
00:20:40.260amazing. And then I remember one night where I was just picking him apart and mentally, you know,
00:20:45.580like, why is he being so quiet? Like, he's not like being that funny. Do I want to be with someone
00:20:49.040who's like not that funny? And I started looking for everything that was wrong with him. The
00:20:52.360difference is that this time I was able to recognize what I was doing right away. It's
00:20:55.640like, oh, I'm scared. And I'm scared. And also I'm panicking because the absence of the, does he like
00:21:00.900me? Does he not? Worrying about when's the next text going to come. All that empty space just
00:21:06.620felt so quiet. I wasn't used to that. This feeling of if he doesn't text me, I know he will. I know
00:21:11.720he likes me. I know he's crazy about me. And if there's an issue, we'll talk about it. And that
00:21:15.500was weird to me because I'd never had a mutual relationship before. It was always either me
00:21:19.320being super into someone who didn't want me or them being super into me and me just getting the
00:21:22.900ick and not wanting them. So yeah, it was hard, but I knew what was happening because at this
00:21:27.360point I had done enough work. And so I was able to course correct. And I was also able to be
00:21:32.420vulnerable with him and honest about, look, you know, I've been through a lot and I'm a little
00:21:36.600messed up in this area. So I just want to be honest with you. And I'm working through it.
00:21:41.940And he's wonderful. And he also has a secure attachment style, which helps. I don't think I
00:21:45.740could be with an avoidant or even an anxious. Like I needed a secure man. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what
00:21:51.760I want to get into after our next break. Like what do those attachment styles even mean? Because
00:21:55.780and everything you said like hard same okay like i didn't know how to be in a relationship that
00:22:01.440wasn't a roller coaster for a long time and i was like oh he's just here he's here and i i don't i
00:22:08.020don't have to live in constant fear right of the bottom dropping out of this and that's a hard
00:22:12.900thing i think to wrap your head around when you've been in the relationships that go go the other way
00:22:19.020it truly is and you know if i could talk directly to my 20 something self i don't know if she'd even
00:22:24.460listen to me and like maybe it doesn't matter because like all of the roads lead to here which
00:22:28.980is the good place but at the same time i would i would still love to have a spicy margarita with
00:22:34.780her you know it's so funny you say that i say that i think pretty much exactly in the book i
00:22:39.020was like i would love to talk to my 20 something self she wouldn't listen but i would love to just
00:22:42.700sit with him i just love to sit with her and also just look at her because she's so pretty she's so0.92
00:22:47.020pretty and she doesn't know it and hot and such great skin i know like what a waste great bouncy0.73
00:22:52.780skin what a goddamn waste okay let's take our last break and when we get back i want to talk0.70
00:22:56.620about different attachment styles because i think we hear them a lot but we don't necessarily know0.98
00:23:00.000what they mean yeah absolutely okay we are back so talk to me what about what a secure attachment
00:23:12.580style is secure attachment people with secure attachment style typically had parents who were
00:23:17.460emotionally attuned to them who validated their emotions this is key this is the number one things
00:23:22.520kids need. They were consistent. They were available. They were there. These kids grow up
00:23:27.420believing I am loved and I am worthy of love, and they don't question that. Now, that's not to say
00:23:32.120someone with secure attachment can't ever struggle with anxiety or depression. Yeah, like they're
00:23:37.640not these perfect magical unicorns. They do struggle, but at the end of the day, they believe
00:23:42.240that they are valuable and that they are worthy. So that is secure attachment. Then we have three
00:23:48.300insecure attachment styles. First, we have anxious attachment. People with anxious attachment had
00:23:53.660caregivers who were very inconsistent. They could be warm and loving one minute, and they could be
00:23:57.940very cold and dismissive the next. So the child becomes very hypervigilant. They don't know which
00:24:02.580version they're getting, and they believe love can be taken away at any moment. So they become
00:24:08.320hyper-attuned to somebody else's behavior, their words, their gestures, everything. Their core
00:24:14.600wound is abandonment. They are terrified of being abandoned. In relationships, what this looks like
00:24:19.800is constantly being on edge, looking for any signs of, oh, he seemed like a little distant tonight.
00:24:27.780Is he losing interest? Now, here's the thing. People with anxious attachment style can function
00:24:31.720pretty normally in a relationship. It's only when that fear of being left or abandoned gets
00:24:36.680activated, then they start to analyze and obsess and hyper attune to everything. And they're really
00:24:43.200unable to regulate within, they need that text back. They need that reassurance. Then we have
00:24:48.420avoidant. Avoidant attachment typically grew up with parents who were cold, dismissive, or hyper
00:24:54.280critical. Perfectionistic parents that pushed them a little too hard. People with avoidant attachment
00:24:59.380style are afraid of getting too close. They're afraid if someone sees the real me, then I'll be
00:25:04.240rejected or the real me isn't good enough because that's the message they always received. So an
00:25:09.080avoidant, here's the thing that gets confusing. They do want love. It's not that you don't want
00:25:13.160love. They want it. But when it gets too close, they get scared. They're scared of being seen.
00:25:17.740So with an avoidant, you'll notice that they pull away as soon as things start to get too close and
00:25:22.880too intense. But then they'll come back. And that's where the cycle makes you crazy because
00:25:27.000they want it, but they don't know how to have it. And then you have disorganized, which is a
00:25:31.020combination of anxious and avoidant. Basically, I want love, but I'm terrified of it. Basically,
00:25:35.920like, I need you, but also go away. They intensely crave closeness, but as soon as they have it,
00:25:41.720they're terrified of it. And so it's disorganized because it's chaotic. You don't even know what to
00:25:46.180expect with them. They're like, come close, go away. And that one type is usually formed from
00:25:50.900a very traumatic childhood, typically marked by intense abuse, either physical, emotional,
00:25:56.160sexual. So those are the attachment styles. Those are the attachment styles in a nutshell.
00:26:07.920I mean, you coach a lot of people through this.
00:26:11.660You've written several books about these things at this point.
00:26:15.500You know, what is often the hardest thing for people to get over or to have a breakthrough about?
00:26:22.620The hardest thing is to get out of their dominant limiting beliefs.
00:26:27.160And for most people, I see this with men and women, it's this belief that I'm not worthy of love.
00:26:33.240And that is traces back to childhood that traces back to a childhood where you got where love was
00:26:39.280very much conditional, where, oh, I am only loved when I'm the people pleaser. I am only loved when
00:26:45.160I get straight A's or when I score in the game. I am only loved when. And that makes you and as
00:26:50.680children, you know, you're a mom. Kids don't have the higher cognitive ability to see, oh, mom is
00:26:57.420really stressed. She's having a really hard time. That's why she's like yelling at me. Instead,0.99
00:27:02.300they see mom's yelling at me. She hates me. I'm a bad kid. I'm not lovable. And that's how kids0.93
00:27:07.100internalize it. And this starts very young. It starts, I'd say around seven, eight. That's when
00:27:11.160that's when that trauma seeps in. That's the place we need to travel back to. And so the work
00:27:16.220that I do, a lot of it is in deprogramming that belief, that unworthiness belief. We have to trace
00:27:22.440it back to its source and we have to look at all the ways in which that is outdated and just not
00:27:27.100relevant. And most people don't do that because that belief was implanted in you, maybe at age
00:27:32.440seven or eight. And then once your subconscious has a belief, you're going to look for evidence
00:27:37.360of that everywhere. The subconscious mind is always looking to prove itself right. So you're
00:27:41.480going to filter out everything that counters the belief, and you're only going to hone in on things
00:27:45.800that affirm the way you already feel about yourself. And so people who have that mother
00:27:50.320wound or that father wound, that unworthiness wound, they're going to date people when they're
00:27:54.380in their adult romantic relationships, they're going to date people who mirror back to them the
00:27:58.900way they already feel. That's why they're going to go for the emotionally unavailable ones or the
00:28:02.380avoidance or the narcissist, because that's they're like, oh, no, this feels familiar. This feels like
00:28:07.000home. So we need to trace it back to the root and we need to start rewiring and rebuilding the
00:28:11.760relationship we have with ourselves, rebuilding our self-concept, the way we see ourselves and
00:28:15.860also reparenting ourselves. That term has gone so mainstream, which is amazing. You can't go back
00:28:21.440in time and redo your childhood. You can't call your parents and say, this is everything you did
00:28:25.200wrong because they're not going to hear it. They're not going to see it. And even if they do
00:28:28.340apologize, it's not going to do anything for you. You have to be there for yourself in the way that
00:28:32.480you needed them to be there for you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you just mentioned something I want to dig
00:28:37.440into a little bit, which is the mother wound. What is that exactly? And I think about it because
00:28:44.200I'm a mother, right? I'm like, how do I not give my kids the mother wound? So the mother wound,
00:28:48.940it's not a clinical diagnosis. This is not in the DSM, but it is the wound inflicted by a mother
00:28:54.480who was emotionally somewhere else, critical, dismissive or enmeshed. And it's basically in
00:29:02.680daughters with a mother wound, it impacts their relationship with their self. The father wound
00:29:07.440is the one that impacts your relationship with others. This is where you get the daddy issues.
00:29:10.660And she's only going for the guys that treat her badly because she didn't have that blueprint of0.77
00:29:14.520masculine love, a daughter looks to her mother to know, who am I? She looks for that gleam in her0.70
00:29:22.540mother's eye. The mother is the mirror. She reflects you back to you. And when your mother
00:29:27.880was critical, you grow up feeling like I am not enough. And this is how women become the people0.99
00:29:34.200pleasers, over-accommodating, over-giving, giving to the point of exhaustion, hyper-independent,0.99
00:29:40.380not wanting to rely on anyone, not wanting to, the women who have, who struggle to even mother
00:29:46.420themselves, take care of themselves. I work with so many women who are so emotionally exhausted
00:29:51.880and burnt out. I feel like burnout is really like a woman problem more than anything. I'm sure some1.00
00:29:56.620men experience it because they're pouring themselves out, trying to be enough. And
00:30:01.920essentially at the end of the day, if we don't want to give our kids the mother wound, the father
00:30:06.420wound. Kids need one thing, and it's not stuff, and it's not activities, and it's not vacations,
00:30:13.340although all that is nice. They need emotional attunement. That's it. That is what psychology
00:30:19.280proves is the number one things kids need. I see you. Your emotions are valid. You matter.
00:30:25.760I'm here for you. I'm with you. Most children didn't get that, especially for us millennials.
00:30:31.080I feel like the millennials and the boomers are at war, and the millennials hate the boomers,
00:30:34.500because the boomers raised us and the boomers idea of parenting is if you have a roof over
00:30:39.380your head and you're fed that's it that i did my job like you're alive that's it they had no sense
00:30:45.880of emotional attunement and emotional validation that just wasn't a thing no it was so it was so
00:30:52.600checked out and so when people actually talk about a 90s summer and i'm like y'all don't want to raise
00:30:56.380your kids like boomers come on come on no no they were just so absent no i got it
00:31:02.980but also i i think again like we're talking about balance right i think that then0.98
00:31:10.320you know there was such an overcorrection for the helicopter parents and i look at those kids who
00:31:15.740are grown-ups now and they're also a hot mess of anxiety because they can't do anything for
00:31:20.260themselves and you know the second that they don't get all of the validation they're like oh my god
00:31:24.760they can't handle it. So I think that there has to be a balance in this too. Yeah, there has to be
00:31:29.520a balance in everything. I mean, the way to give your kids confidence is that you have to trust
00:31:33.580them to be able to do things. And whenever my kids are like, no, I can't, I can't need you to
00:31:38.540do it. I'm like, no, I know you can do it. I trust that you can do it. And maybe sometimes they'll
00:31:41.660cry and they don't want to, but that's how they build confidence. They don't build confidence by
00:31:45.520me saying, oh yeah, you know, you are totally incapable of pouring that cup of water for
00:31:49.460yourself, even though you're nine years old. Um, yeah, no, let me do it. No, they build confidence
00:31:53.160by. All right. I know it's hard. You can do hard things. I trust you. But we also don't want to
00:31:58.740leave our kids like to completely fend for themselves like the latchkey kid generation.
00:32:02.660I mean, my no. I was a latchkey kid. I was a latchkey kid, a raised by Oprah and Phil Donahue
00:32:09.900kid and TV dinner kid. Yeah. Right. No. So like that's obviously like a whole different extreme
00:32:16.740that produces different issues. There absolutely has to be a balance between the two of being there
00:32:20.640for your kids, because that's all they really want, especially when they're little. They just
00:32:23.600want you there. They just want your presence. But you also you can be there without doing every
00:32:28.680single tiny thing for them once they're capable of doing certain things on their own.
00:32:32.760Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, it is all about the balance. And that's what I love
00:32:36.920about your writing in this book, because like you said, it's not rules, but it's it's things
00:32:44.560I think that can awaken us to our power and awaken us to our agency in a really important way.
00:32:52.840And, you know, I recommend books like this to women, but I just want men to read them, too.
00:32:57.140OK, sure. I think so many women read books about toxic masculinity and no men are reading like any of these books, books, you know, about about women, about embracing our femininity.
00:33:06.320And I think that, you know, your book would make a great Father's Day gift.