Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - How to Build Deep Friendships Without Burning Yourself Out

00:00:00.140 I want to date with Rawls, Carty says.

00:00:03.460 Rawls? Rucker asks.

00:00:05.540 This is the love story of real hinge couple Carty and Rucker.

00:00:09.620 Written and read by me, Nicola Dynan.

00:00:12.380 Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:00:16.960 Before you knew what a stock was, you traded snacks, cards, turns.

00:00:22.740 You knew what something was worth because you felt it.

00:00:26.160 That instinct to trade didn't disappear.

00:00:28.880 It just grew up.

00:00:30.400 TD Easy Trade taps into that instinct

00:00:32.380 so you can build something real for the future

00:00:34.880 with no minimums, no monthly fees,

00:00:37.620 and 100 free trades.

00:00:39.200 You already got this

00:00:40.420 because you are made to trade

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00:01:07.680 Jo here, and you are listening to Under the Influence. Friendship is one of my great obsessions.

00:01:14.380 I write about it, and I think about it all the time, and I probably overanalyze all of my own

00:01:22.180 friendships, but in a cute way, in a totally cute way. I say this a lot, but we talk a lot about

00:01:30.080 romantic love and not nearly enough about the power and the importance of friendships in our

00:01:36.540 life. And we also hear a lot about loneliness these days, but then not nearly enough about

00:01:44.960 what it takes to build and keep real friendships in the messy middle part of our life.

00:01:52.180 We see so many headlines right now about the loneliness epidemic, especially for men, and the different ways that modern life is pulling us apart.

00:02:01.180 My guest today had a very different reaction to all of that discourse.

00:02:05.480 She kept thinking quietly to herself, this does not actually describe me.

00:02:11.580 I have a lot of friends.

00:02:13.480 So the journalist Anya Kamenetz wrote about it, and her piece went viral.

00:02:18.000 The title grabbed me. I wrote her right away and asked her to come on the show.

00:02:21.640 it was, I'm a working mom in my 40s and an introvert, and I have more sweeter and deeper

00:02:27.220 friendships than ever in my life. So today, we're going to get into how an introverted,

00:02:32.960 bookish kid who always felt like the odd one out ended up with rich and abundant friendships in

00:02:38.200 midlife. I love this conversation. I'm very excited for Anya and I to become more real-life

00:02:43.680 friends since we've been online friends, and I think this podcast is the first step in that

00:02:47.580 journey. Hello. Hey, Jo. How's it going? It's great. I'm so happy to have you here talking

00:03:00.780 about this subject because friendship is one of my obsessions. It truly is. It's one of the things

00:03:07.720 I put in all of my books. And I also don't think we talk enough about how tricky it can be to make

00:03:15.380 friends in middle age, but also just how fulfilling those friendships can be.

00:03:21.220 Totally. Totally. Yes. And I love the way that you portray friendship in your books,

00:03:25.960 including the last one, which is about a best friend, right? And just like the weirdness of

00:03:30.520 that and friendship over time. Like it can be so emotionally intense.

00:03:34.860 Oh, it's so emotionally intense. I think that female friendships are more emotionally intense 1.00

00:03:39.380 than romantic relationship.

00:03:40.740 They definitely can be, you know, and I think one of the things I talked about in this post was just like cultivating a sense of abundance and generosity because a lot of that sort of, you know, I think the times that I've been in friendships that I'm not necessarily as proud of how I acted have to do with that sense of desperation.

00:03:59.660 Like, oh, my God, if I lose this person, what's going to happen to me and to my life?

00:04:04.100 Right.

00:04:05.040 Exactly.

00:04:05.860 Exactly.

00:04:07.260 So you recently wrote a post on Substack.

00:04:10.020 You have a gorgeous sub stack. We're going to link it in the show notes that this caught my eye.

00:04:15.460 I immediately messaged you. I'm like, come on the podcast and talk to me about this.

00:04:19.900 Thank you for doing that.

00:04:21.300 Of course. Of course. And the title of it is I'm a working mom in my 40s and an introvert.

00:04:27.540 And I have more sweeter and deeper friendships than ever in my life.

00:04:34.580 And that just stopped me. It stopped me in my scroll. I loved it so much.

00:04:39.000 Also, because your lead sentence is, this is one of those pieces where I'm like, am I the asshole? 0.98

00:04:44.240 Is this totally unrelatable? 0.96

00:04:46.020 Which is how I feel about everything I write. 0.99

00:04:47.760 I'm like, am I the asshole? 0.99

00:04:49.020 I don't know. 1.00

00:04:49.820 Maybe.

00:04:50.200 Probably.

00:04:50.860 Probably.

00:04:51.700 So talk to me a little bit about the genesis of this.

00:04:54.220 Why did you want to write this piece?

00:04:55.840 Yeah, totally.

00:04:56.780 So it's really interesting, actually, because, yes, like I have been around the spin of the discourse about the loneliness epidemic and the male loneliness epidemic.

00:05:07.020 And we're also isolated.

00:05:08.260 And every time I would see something about that, I would be like, huh, that doesn't describe me.

00:05:13.320 Actually, I've got a lot of friends.

00:05:15.100 And so then you just like, you know, you don't want to like push back when people are having these like dark nights of the soul and they're all sharing about how lonely they are and how nobody has time to hang out.

00:05:24.560 So finally, ironically, right, I joined this small group of women, Substackers, and we were talking about like the big swing, like the posts that you write that's like actually trying to get a bigger audience, ironically.

00:05:37.880 Right. And I was like, huh, this is a thing like this is a conversation and maybe I should just shoot my shot and see if I can write about it in a way that is actually helpful and relatable and breaks down why I see things the way I see things. 0.75

00:05:52.520 And it's because of my friends, my new friends, that I decided to do it.

00:05:56.420 Well, and I love that. So talk to me about cultivating this new group of friends.

00:06:02.320 You've been an introvert your whole life. And what were your friendships like when you were younger?

00:06:07.880 When I was younger, so I say in the post, right, I grew up, I was a introverted, bookish, Jewish, shy girl in southern Louisiana, in Baton Rouge, where the culture was like football, cheerleaders, giant pieces of meat.

00:06:24.080 I was a vegetarian and like mega churches. Right. So I really did not fit in. And that was my mentality. I don't fit in.

00:06:31.200 And so when I would make friends, I had usually one or two friends at a time in elementary school and in middle school, like, and they would also be sort of self-identified weirdos. And that was fine. But it would be like, it's a lot of scarcity. Like, you really don't feel like you're gonna, and like, if your friend is busy, then you have, then you're like home alone on a Friday night.

00:06:51.640 And so that was my mentality. And I think even going in high school, we moved to New Orleans, which is a very different kind of city and things got better. But I still had this scarcity in my back of my mind. Like I was always like, if I have some friends, that's great, but they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily going to last.

00:07:07.700 i have to stop you and say that i love self-described weirdos i really do i just i

00:07:15.080 would love us to get sweatshirts that say self-described weirdos because you know that

00:07:19.860 just it describes me i think it describes my children to be honest and it just brings me

00:07:25.260 some i would have been your friend oh thanks joe i would have been your friend too if i had gotten

00:07:29.220 over myself i know well and if i if i i mean i would have brought some meat but you could have

00:07:33.500 eaten your veggies and and I would have eaten my meat and we would have like parallel played

00:07:37.700 like that and it would have been totally fine totally fine and so what do you think changed

00:07:43.060 now as an adult you describe such a rich friendship tapestry I'm gonna I'm actually

00:07:50.040 gonna read it because I love the way you describe this I'm in my mid-40s I've never felt so rich in

00:07:55.420 friendship last year I shared a birthday party with three Virgo co-hosts by the way so did I

00:08:01.400 nuts. Yeah. I mean, I think Virgos find each other, to be honest. Yeah. I have multiple group

00:08:09.100 texts, more Friendsgivings than I can make it to. I have amazing, lovely people, happy to feed my

00:08:14.980 cat, bring in my mail, go for a sauna, take a walk, grab a coffee, exchange work advice,

00:08:19.960 all of the things. This sounds so lovely. How did you get from there to here?

00:08:24.500 Oh, my gosh. I mean, I want to say like I grew up and got over myself. Like I think I really

00:08:30.520 the second piece I put the second like bullet point in a post was like I learned to be more

00:08:35.540 vulnerable but I really think that's the headline is like I learned to let people actually know me

00:08:41.620 and take down my defenses and stop pretending like things were okay all the time and um I mean

00:08:48.980 there's a lot to be said about like trauma dumping or or like whatever and I'm not even talking about 0.91

00:08:54.580 like you know just the way that women sometimes bond by complaining like I think that's not

00:08:59.200 necessarily always a positive, but like really just the basic of being like, hey, this is something 0.98

00:09:03.700 I'm struggling with. Are you struggling with it too? Maybe we can help each other out. Like

00:09:07.380 that was like the biggest little shift. And then the whole other parts of it are like

00:09:14.780 just building structures in your life, right? Where you are letting in the ability to have

00:09:21.120 company and to let the people around you move across that invisible barrier, right? From

00:09:26.280 acquaintance to friend so I think it was just a bunch of little moves like that do you think that

00:09:31.300 as you age and I think this is true for me that you just got more comfortable showing up as who

00:09:37.560 you were instead of performing a thousand percent a thousand percent right like and and I honestly

00:09:44.140 have to say too like shifting from like the the play for male attention in social settings to

00:09:52.240 like actually just connecting with people and like men and women like I have I have male friends as

00:09:56.260 well but like I just was noting it to myself because like the last few times I was at a party

00:10:00.000 I ended up like locked in with an amazing lady and I got their details like that happened like 0.99

00:10:07.160 three times in a row and I was like huh I am like paying a lot of attention to the like women around

00:10:13.320 me and just annoying like and and not performing like you're saying like I think a lot of times I 1.00

00:10:18.740 don't know how often this is but like a lot of times when women are performing in social settings

00:10:21.460 they're performing for men right a hundred percent I think about that so often I think about that 0.91

00:10:28.220 when I'm raising my girls to think about how how can I shift this culture because I don't think it

00:10:35.320 was my mother that told me to perform for for men growing up or in my 20s but culture tells us as

00:10:42.900 young women that we're constantly performing for men we're constantly striving to find that

00:10:48.240 relationship and yeah I will say that my life has just been so much easier now that that is

00:10:54.140 completely completely a non-issue for me I don't I don't even I also have I have a lot of male

00:10:59.520 friends I'm friends with a lot of my my friends husbands but then also you know I had a lot of

00:11:05.940 male friends all through high school and and my early 20s and I'm still friends with the ones

00:11:12.460 whose wives allow that there are there are always those wives who are like no more for you and I'm 1.00

00:11:17.720 Like those women, those women are the worst.

00:11:19.920 I just, I don't like, I don't like those ladies, but that's a whole other podcast episode. 0.98

00:11:24.260 But I don't think about them.

00:11:26.240 I don't think about what they think about me, I think.

00:11:29.420 Yeah.

00:11:29.680 Like you're just into connecting and talking about the things you both care about.

00:11:33.900 Like I think there's, that's like, that's a really key factor, right?

00:11:38.060 It's like when you stop thinking about yourself and you start thinking about the other person

00:11:42.600 and what's interesting for them and what's happening for them, like that's, that's kind

00:11:46.700 of like that's like the dale carnegie right like number one thing is like just be interested if

00:11:51.500 you want to be interesting be interested and i needed to get over myself to be honest with you

00:11:56.440 like i i think that a journal becoming a journalist was also that training and i know i know you had

00:12:02.320 that experience too is like you can ask so many questions like they're so there i feel like i can

00:12:07.040 get an interesting conversation out of almost anybody i meet i can i mean i would say 85 percent

00:12:13.200 There's 15% that I'm like, you are hopeless.

00:12:17.740 That's so true.

00:12:18.860 And it's usually people that are sort of fronting or they're in their own necessity of, like, keeping up appearances in some way.

00:12:26.220 Yes, exactly.

00:12:27.040 Those people are super boring.

00:12:28.600 Yes, yes.

00:12:29.660 But then the other thing I'm going to say, right, and be real about in the friendship game is, like, it's also, like, scenes of people and communities of people, right?

00:12:39.080 So I sort of got myself into a situation where I was surrounded by people who thought of themselves as communities and thought of themselves as groups.

00:12:48.740 And that was not my doing.

00:12:50.020 That was like other groups of people that had people that really were like, we take care of each other and we like spend holidays together and we help some out if someone needs like a GoFundMe or a meal train, like we're there.

00:13:04.580 And so adapting into that kind of way of acting brought so many amazing people into my life.

00:13:11.360 Well, and I think one of the things to point out is that this is also work.

00:13:16.160 It is also labor.

00:13:17.460 It doesn't always come naturally.

00:13:19.480 And you have to put effort into it to get what you want out of it.

00:13:25.560 I want us to take a quick break.

00:13:26.780 And when we get back, let's dig into that a little bit.

00:13:29.320 Awesome.

00:13:29.820 Love it.

00:13:34.580 I want to date with Rawls, Carty says.

00:13:38.180 Rawls? Rocker asks.

00:13:40.340 This is the love story of real-hinged couple Carty and Rocker.

00:13:44.400 Written and read by me, Nicola Dynan.

00:13:47.160 Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:13:51.760 Before you knew what a stock was, you traded snacks, cards, turns.

00:13:57.540 You knew what something was worth because you felt it.

00:14:00.480 That instinct to trade didn't disappear.

00:14:03.680 It just grew up.

00:14:05.200 TD Easy Trade taps into that instinct

00:14:07.160 so you can build something real for the future

00:14:09.680 with no minimums, no monthly fees, and 100 free trades.

00:14:13.980 You already got this because you are made to trade.

00:14:18.140 And TD Easy Trade is made to help.

00:14:20.640 Download it now.

00:14:25.320 Okay, we are back.

00:14:27.460 One of the things that I tell people all the time,

00:14:29.920 because I also, I have an abundance of friends.

00:14:32.520 I love I love my friend groups. I love I love my community and my life. And I like saying that out loud because I don't know if we say the good things out loud enough. I think there's so much complaining that I I really and I'm not a like gratitude journal person because it's never fit my soul. But I do like saying the things that are great out loud.

00:14:53.160 I love that. I love that. I think that's so important.

00:14:55.600 Yeah. And so people ask me, they're like, well, how did you get this community? And I'm like,

00:15:00.520 it was so freaking intentional, guys. It wasn't working for me. When I lived in San Francisco,

00:15:06.920 I did not have this level of community. It was hard for me to find my people. Or when I did find

00:15:13.040 my people, they moved out of the city because it was very expensive there. And I intentionally

00:15:18.480 moved home, not just to the East Coast, but to Philadelphia, where I'm from, where I went to

00:15:23.320 college where I knew my people were, I moved within three blocks of my friends from college.

00:15:30.140 Like I set this up. And then because they're good people, they also had good people around them.

00:15:36.800 Yeah. Yeah. That is so important. And I do not discount the fact that I've been in New York

00:15:42.080 City since 2002. Right. Like that is not just a random thing. It's it's very real. And while I

00:15:49.020 didn't go to college here, I went to college nearby. My husband grew up here all his life.

00:15:52.540 He's got people. And so those networks really connect. And actually, we have a whole group of friends that a significant slice of them all grew up together upstate. So they are like family friends. It's like next generation family friends. And so you get that cohesiveness and that continuity. And, you know, it's a major decision, right? Living in the city that you're living in. But it's, I think it's one of the things that people don't realize how clutch it's going to be for their happiness, right?

00:16:21.240 Right. Exactly. Exactly. I think it's the number one determining factor for my happiness. I mean, actually, that and that I chose to marry a good guy.

00:16:30.840 Yeah, that's pretty important, too.

00:16:33.160 That also really helps, really helps. But yes, my friend groups in my community massively, massively contributes to my happiness. But like I said, I also think that I put in the work. And one of the things that you mentioned in your Substack is that you made a check-in habit.

00:16:53.540 it. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, this is like automating a piece of it, right? Because

00:16:59.880 you, things get really busy. And so I have friends that moved away. My best friend,

00:17:04.940 she lived in Brooklyn. We went to college together. She lived in Brooklyn for a while.

00:17:08.320 And then she moved across the country. And we fumbled for a little while. And then we made

00:17:13.200 this plan and we talk every Friday afternoon. So she will call me. I will call her. We're three

00:17:19.300 hours apart I don't always get her she works a really busy job but knowing that we're making

00:17:24.260 that intentionality to reach out and we'll talk every other week if we don't talk every week

00:17:28.180 it's so crucial you know it just keeps us in the mix and knowing too that you you can talk for five

00:17:35.380 minutes or seven minutes right and still feel like you're up to speed with somebody absolutely and I

00:17:41.080 really like that note because it was such a good reminder for me to to put these things on the

00:17:47.000 calendar because they're as important, if not more important than your work things, which we

00:17:51.500 always put on a calendar, which we always prioritize. And my best girlfriend lives in

00:17:58.080 Nashville and we have tried so many different things over the years. She really wanted me to

00:18:02.680 do this thing called Marco Polo, where you send videos to each other. Yeah, I know some people

00:18:07.220 that are into that. I can't do it. I can't with a voice note. I'm so sorry. Oh my God, I can't with

00:18:11.200 a voice note either. I hate a voice note. People send me voice notes and they're like, could you

00:18:14.940 listen and i'm like no because i never have headphones with me i'm not gonna play it in

00:18:18.220 the middle of like the street and i don't want to look at a camera i don't want to watch a video

00:18:24.760 no and i really hurt her feelings actually for a while she's like why won't you do this with me

00:18:29.140 and i'm like because i hate it like i actively yeah actively hate it yeah you know so linda

00:18:35.300 she she also does marco polo with other people but she she accepts that it's it's not my thing

00:18:40.520 So ironically, here you are with a podcast, right?

00:18:42.900 But you're like, no, no way.

00:18:44.920 Yeah.

00:18:45.280 Well, and the thing is, I think part of it, and I did have to explain this to her, I'm

00:18:49.260 like, part of my job is talking and also being on camera with people and doing these interviews.

00:18:55.380 So that isn't relaxing for me, whereas it's totally relaxing for her because she's like,

00:18:59.200 I never do this in my normal life.

00:19:01.340 Right, right.

00:19:02.080 Well, this is another factor, right, which is like conflict in friendships.

00:19:05.220 I think that, I don't know.

00:19:07.100 I don't know what's going on with people that feel really lonely, but I do feel like you have

00:19:12.340 to understand that there's going to be conflict because if you're having a real relationship,

00:19:16.080 I actually, so one of my friends, she lives upstate and she's a second generation commune

00:19:21.260 girl. Okay. Oh my gosh. Tell me, tell me more. Well, it's totally incredible. When her parents

00:19:25.700 moved to this spread upstate, um, you know, in 1969 and she lives there now, her brother with

00:19:30.840 her brother, like her family, her brother's family, various other people. And she told me this so

00:19:35.960 simple but she was like her dad was like if you're not having a fight with somebody it's not a

00:19:41.060 community like wow you're getting real with people it's not like it's always going to be a fight but

00:19:47.640 like if you're really with people like there's going to be conflict there's going to be friction

00:19:52.600 and it's to be expected right that's just I think a really important thing to internalize because it

00:19:58.120 doesn't mean that you're doing something wrong it doesn't mean that you're like really bad at this 1.00

00:20:02.960 I mean, sometimes maybe you are the asshole. 0.98

00:20:04.540 Like, I'm not discounting that possibility if you're, like, there are definitely people who, like, leave a wake of, like, disasters. 0.99

00:20:10.420 But, you know, if you come up with something and there's, like, something that didn't go right, you just have to be able to repair.

00:20:15.940 I think that's the main point with friendships.

00:20:18.060 You have to be able to repair.

00:20:19.260 Give it time.

00:20:19.880 Give it space.

00:20:21.320 Come back.

00:20:22.260 You know, figure out what it's going to be.

00:20:25.380 Well, yeah.

00:20:26.000 Yeah, and recognize that conflict, much like conflict within a marriage and what I'm also recently reminding myself, conflict with my children is such a normal part of a relationship.

00:20:36.600 It's a healthy part of a relationship.

00:20:38.900 Exactly.

00:20:39.820 Exactly.

00:20:41.260 Well, and you also say in here, there's two other points that I love.

00:20:44.860 One is that you try to be helpful.

00:20:48.100 Yeah, that's such a huge thing.

00:20:49.580 I mean, it seems really simple and it might be second nature to lots of people, but just like, what are the ways that I can actually show up for this person?

00:20:57.180 And I mentioned already, like, there's been, you know, there's been times when people need meal trains.

00:21:01.680 Like, I still remember all the people that came to my house with a gift with food when I had a baby, you know.

00:21:07.780 Oh, my gosh.

00:21:08.620 Same.

00:21:09.260 It's just like, yeah, like, that just gets you, you know.

00:21:14.280 And I have some friends that that is our primary connection is the way that we actually, like, do things for each other.

00:21:20.000 That's a love language.

00:21:22.280 And then I talked about, yeah, just, like, people I've gotten to know through work because they were generous and they reached out.

00:21:27.920 And I have been generous and I've reached out.

00:21:29.560 And, like, now I'm just kind of like, that's free.

00:21:32.360 I can do that as much as I, like, have time for, right?

00:21:34.660 Like, if you need some advice or you need, like, an introduction, like, I try to be there because I know it means so much.

00:21:41.020 And we're all just out here trying to make it happen.

00:21:44.280 And I think there's so many different ways to be helpful, too.

00:21:48.000 I mean, you mentioned the meal train, which my girlfriends did it for me for my third baby.

00:21:54.600 And I still think about some of those meals.

00:21:56.420 I still think about the platter of enchiladas that Sarah made me.

00:21:59.620 Aww.

00:22:00.140 I know, because she also created two, like, mini tequila drinks in, like, the tiniest of bottles with lime and a little Ziploc bag of salt.

00:22:11.080 Like, there was no detail overlooked.

00:22:13.140 And I'm having lunch with her on Friday.

00:22:16.600 And for some reason, I thought about it the other night.

00:22:18.580 I'm like, I loved that enchilada so much.

00:22:21.100 It was three years ago.

00:22:24.880 Yeah, these things really do stick in your mind.

00:22:27.700 I think that's such a wonderful reminder.

00:22:30.520 And other ways of being helpful.

00:22:32.680 I mean, little things.

00:22:33.360 I try to send texts if I'm doing a big box grocery run, like Costco or Target, to a couple of people.

00:22:40.340 Just like not everyone, not to the whole group text, because then you're screwed, but just a couple of people, maybe the ones who I know are having a rough week and be like, hey, making the run.

00:22:51.960 What do you need?

00:22:53.240 How can I fill your fridge?

00:22:54.700 Like these little things, because this stuff always and you shouldn't expect it to come back to you, but it always does.

00:22:59.940 And it just it really makes people feel cared for.

00:23:03.300 Oh, my gosh.

00:23:03.700 I sent an Instacart run to my girlfriend in Seattle who was having a baby.

00:23:09.460 And she's having a baby.

00:23:11.180 Her husband's father died.

00:23:12.920 He had to go to South Africa.

00:23:14.640 She had a four-week-old.

00:23:17.640 And she was like so – I mean, it brought us so much closer.

00:23:21.240 It's just that kind of thing.

00:23:23.100 Right?

00:23:23.640 Exactly.

00:23:24.340 Exactly.

00:23:24.740 And it's not just when people are having babies.

00:23:26.620 I do think we talk a lot about friendships around those pivotal moments.

00:23:30.900 But it can be anything. 0.99

00:23:32.040 I have a friend who's just going through a lot of crap at work because she works with crappy people. 0.92

00:23:37.700 And I was like, all right, hey, I know you probably don't have time to schedule and dip out for a manicure. 0.97

00:23:44.800 I bought you a manicure gift card.

00:23:46.760 So just go.

00:23:47.980 Go when you can. 0.99

00:23:49.360 Get out of your freaking house. 0.99

00:23:51.100 Get off your Zoom calls and do something for yourself. 1.00

00:23:55.040 That's so great.

00:23:56.240 I love that.

00:23:56.760 And I just want to mention, too, that the, you know, some of the, like, the bigger picture reasons of, like, how and where we make friends in our lives is, like, one of my observations is, like, in midlife, the people that are out there making new friends are the people who are in life transitions, right?

00:24:11.880 So, you know, definitely that happens in divorce.

00:24:15.360 And, like, I'm not saying people should divorce to get better friends.

00:24:18.140 But it's, like, what is the thing that you are embarking on that you're really excited about that's your, like, personal growth?

00:24:24.180 It could be in your work.

00:24:25.280 It could be personal.

00:24:26.760 That's where you're going to find friends, because you're going to find meaningful connections with people that are sharing goals, who are taking risks, who are doing things in their lives.

00:24:35.180 And I think that's what we're all looking for.

00:24:38.060 Yeah, absolutely.

00:24:39.280 And that's nothing new either.

00:24:41.080 I mean, if you think about the pivotal moments where we often made friends when we were younger, it's when we begin a new school like college or in the workplace when we first start out in the workplace because there's growth and there's friction and you are doing all of that complaining and learning together.

00:25:00.440 So there is a little bit of trauma bonding, too.

00:25:03.820 So it makes sense that you would do that in midlife as well.

00:25:07.740 I think we have less opportunities maybe in midlife unless we're looking at those opportunities or

00:25:12.360 looking for those opportunities. Well, that's exactly right. And, you know, Pooja Lakshman,

00:25:16.580 who I also really love and I love her self-stack, she talks about midlife dilemma, right? It's

00:25:21.140 generativity versus stagnation. And I think with a lot of people, like they're looking at their

00:25:26.460 friendships and they may have acquired friends along the way, but they're not growing together

00:25:30.380 anymore. They're not doing new things. They do all the same thing, same things together. Maybe

00:25:34.540 they've had, you know, dust-ups or they've gotten sick of each other. And that's where their

00:25:39.160 friendships are maybe not bringing them that kind of satisfaction. Where if you're looking at the

00:25:43.860 path of generativity, you know, that's where you're like, wow, what can, how can I discover,

00:25:48.460 like, new things to do with the friends I have or new people that can bring that, that feeling

00:25:54.100 into my life? Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that that is not always easy if you're an

00:26:00.300 introvert either because i am i am i present as an extrovert but i'm a secret introvert

00:26:07.600 yes me too me too oh my gosh um yes that is so so hard joe and it's like figuring out for me

00:26:16.780 when i'm just being avoidant and whether and when i am truly like tapped out um and just trying to

00:26:23.540 think really intentionally about when i want to put my energy into social stuff and i know that

00:26:27.960 it's going to be so rewarding and I'm going to feel so good about it. But I do have to ration

00:26:34.680 it out. I have to be very intentional about it. I have to be very, very intentional about it.

00:26:39.960 And I've also, look, I've culled some people from my life that were energy sucking for me

00:26:46.040 that just didn't work anymore. I think as women, we often feel guilty about that. But I don't

00:26:54.500 think we should I think that friendship it shouldn't always bring joy as we said there's

00:26:59.480 going to be friction it's a relationship but you should feel the balance of joy over pain or

00:27:06.260 toxicity should be higher on the joy side oh my god I totally agree with that and I think it's you

00:27:11.820 know clear is kind right like if you're in that kind of relationship where you're just feeling

00:27:16.940 dragged down all the time it's not helpful for the other person either right because they shouldn't

00:27:21.920 be like they can't just be in a situation where they're just like dumping out all the time onto

00:27:26.640 people and not dealing with their problems that are making them do that so yeah i totally endorse

00:27:32.920 that i think that being you know understanding what you can give understanding that the balance

00:27:37.700 is going to shift back and forth um but also you know guarding your energy guarding your energy

00:27:43.860 it's a really big thing and and that's what i want to talk about after one more quick break i want to

00:27:49.440 talk a little bit more about guarding your energy and still having these expansive friend

00:27:54.320 groups, especially as we're looking forward to a new year. I don't believe in resolutions,

00:27:59.840 but I do believe in saying what I want and what I don't want in the new year. So let's

00:28:03.960 talk about that when we get back. Awesome.

00:28:10.080 You matched on Hinge. You're vibing. Then her energy completely changes. What do you do?

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00:29:01.540 Okay, we are back.

00:29:03.740 Talk to me a little bit about guarding your energy when you have this very robust friend group.

00:29:09.540 How do you protect yourself?

00:29:11.500 Oh, my gosh.

00:29:12.060 that's that's such an intense question honestly because i feel like there are um especially when

00:29:19.500 it's like a community thing you know what i mean like it's not so much about your individual

00:29:23.960 friendships with people but it's about like groups and group energy is just like it could

00:29:28.800 be so much bigger than you know an individual one-on-one and that's a great thing about it

00:29:33.620 it can be like the exhausting thing about it especially if there's like a conflict that

00:29:36.880 doesn't particularly involve you, but you're still getting sucked into it. I really approach it

00:29:43.240 in a planning way, right? Where first of all, I think about like, I like to be home most week

00:29:49.700 nights. I like to be there for bedtime and for dinner. So once a week, I'll try to go out. And

00:29:55.240 then once on the weekends, I'll try to go out once or twice. And so that's just like from a calendar

00:30:01.260 perspective and i'm over a go i think about things that way um when it comes to your energy with

00:30:06.760 other people and kind of like the psychic like dimension of it i don't know it's really tricky

00:30:11.400 like how do you think about it you know i i i often kind of because i'm like a cost benefit analysis

00:30:19.980 economics kind of girl i think about you know is this friendship am i taking on more than than i

00:30:30.100 can handle. And honestly, for a while, and it's getting better, I didn't have a ton of bandwidth

00:30:36.220 for other people's emotions because I've got three little kids, eight, six, and three. I've got a

00:30:44.120 husband. They take so much, so much emotional bandwidth. Like, oh God. And my mom who lives

00:30:51.460 close by and is a widow, right? So I had to really figure out, I'm like, is this person

00:30:58.400 like really really taxing my system I had one friend that I was supposed to meet up with during

00:31:06.080 book tour and I just couldn't do it I didn't didn't have the bandwidth and they call and it

00:31:11.740 was a 20-minute trauma dump from them about every terrible thing in their lives and I made that

00:31:17.780 decision I was like I don't think this is gonna work for me now we had and we we haven't really

00:31:23.500 talked since then and i'm very comfortable with that um and so i think it's just not feeling guilt

00:31:31.300 or shame around around deciding who can be in your life at any given moment and being kind about that

00:31:38.740 and giving grace and being open to that person coming back in maybe when you're both in different

00:31:43.260 places i have more bandwidth now that my babies aren't attached to my body all the time right

00:31:48.820 I also and realizing what kinds of friends work right now I love what you said about you like to

00:31:57.680 be home most weeknights so do I I do bedtime almost every every night even that's also exhausting I

00:32:04.280 love it and I'm also so tired by the end of it yeah totally and it's an opera it remains an opera

00:32:09.920 except for the third one who we just put in the bed and we walk away and she doesn't care she

00:32:15.280 doesn't care because we didn't do it we never did the opera and she's just like this is normal

00:32:20.680 meanwhile the first one it's at 90 minutes oh my god oh my god i have to tell you what you're

00:32:27.640 gonna miss it one day i have a fourth grader and a ninth grader and the fourth grader i'm still

00:32:32.820 reading too and she's still bouncing around and all of that but like it's like the clock is ticking

00:32:37.800 on that oh i know i know and i think about that i really think about that every time i'm like

00:32:42.500 laying in bed with my eight-year-old, I'm like, he's not going to let me cuddle him soon.

00:32:46.660 Yeah.

00:32:46.960 This is, I know that it's coming. So I'm like, just embrace it, embrace it. But I have some

00:32:52.320 friends who are recently separated or divorced. And so they're always texting me being like,

00:32:56.680 hey, let's get drinks after bedtime because they might be free that night without kids.

00:33:02.040 And I'm like, girl, there's no way I'm leaving the house after seven o'clock.

00:33:07.020 yeah it's so real and i mean i i definitely have um had lots of times when i felt out of sync and

00:33:17.040 felt left out in that way like um but i have to say like it's worth it because the friends that

00:33:23.760 i like i i felt very left out and we kept like we kept a group of friends that had no kids

00:33:28.140 and so they're living that no kids lifestyle they're off to brazil or whatever you know

00:33:33.100 Oh my God. And thank you for that. But like, then you, you know, and then you get back in

00:33:38.740 and you're like, okay, you know what? These people have like read some things. They know

00:33:41.540 what plays are playing. Like they know about some music. I can talk to them about other stuff. And

00:33:46.500 like, you know, we see them when we see them. I can't do, I'm not going to do a bottomless brunch

00:33:51.100 because I hang out with my kids on the weekends, you know, but like I can go to the first part of

00:33:56.940 the birthday party before they like go to the second part and the third part. Right. So just

00:34:00.800 like figuring out ways to stay engaged in your terms and realizing that like it's not high school

00:34:06.360 anymore and it doesn't really matter like you're you like owning my own choices I guess is is the

00:34:13.220 main thing right totally yeah totally yeah I think I think that's what it is I own my own choices I

00:34:18.400 don't have to be the last person at the party I can be the first person at the party and I can

00:34:23.080 help you set up and I can help you make those drinks yes hell yes absolutely absolutely and

00:34:28.480 then you know and then there's always like yeah so I think that that's uh and and you figure out

00:34:35.380 who can be flexible with that and who can roll with you on that you know and the other thing I

00:34:40.360 just wanted to say about the trauma dumping is just like I feel like the other side of it for

00:34:43.660 me is just like getting comfortable you know that's you know that like therapist talk of like

00:34:49.340 don't go to the hardware store for oranges yes right like if they don't they're not selling it

00:34:55.140 don't try to get it from them. Right. And part of being ruthless about my friendships or like

00:35:00.840 really honest and intentional about my friendship is understanding who is worthy of my whole heart

00:35:06.760 and who's worthy of being trusted and actually being vulnerable with. And then who just can't

00:35:14.440 do that. And I think that that gets easier as we get older and as our kids get older,

00:35:19.940 because I had so much desperation for mom friends when I had my first baby. I'm like,

00:35:24.760 I'll take any of y'all, any of y'all, okay?

00:35:27.180 Yeah, just someone sit with me with this.

00:35:30.020 You also have a newborn?

00:35:31.060 We're the same.

00:35:31.960 Yeah.

00:35:34.600 We were not the same.

00:35:36.420 Oh, my God.

00:35:37.120 I was in a situation, Joe, where, like, it was the stay-at-home dad with a cool house,

00:35:44.220 and he just, like, his strategy was, like, fill the house with parents and kids every weekend, right?

00:35:49.440 And I was like, this is great.

00:35:51.240 We're going to help the hangout.

00:35:52.760 But like as it goes on, I'm like, are these people our friends actually?

00:35:57.060 Do we actually even like them?

00:35:58.540 And like, you know, and my husband's working a lot of the time and he would like check

00:36:01.800 in sometimes and be like, why are these our friends?

00:36:04.260 Why are we going on vacation with them?

00:36:05.400 Why are we hanging out with them?

00:36:06.300 Like we have so, so many things that we're different on.

00:36:09.460 And I was like, but they have pizza and there's kids at the house.

00:36:14.440 But yeah, like that's, I'm not doing that anymore.

00:36:17.540 I'm not doing that anymore.

00:36:18.720 I did that for a while.

00:36:19.400 Well, and also that's great for a certain phase of life because you need those people. 0.89

00:36:23.440 You need the people that you can be like, is this poop color normal?

00:36:27.380 Because they have the same exact baby as you, right?

00:36:31.620 Oh, my God, yes.

00:36:32.500 I mean, those are your mom colleagues, right?

00:36:35.420 And I love that word.

00:36:37.200 I think it's really interesting to think about them as mom colleagues rather than the people that are your genuine friends, like friends of your heart.

00:36:46.420 Exactly.

00:36:46.860 And some people, some of them have.

00:36:48.200 And some of them grow into that. Some of them do grow into that. But I almost think about it like it's not a trial period because that's kind of shitty that I'm the asshole. But it's like you can move from colleague to very, very close friend, but not everyone makes that cut.

00:37:03.340 I mean, I think that's the point, right? And I think maybe in America, we don't have the right words for this. I don't know if other languages have the right words for this, but like some people are part of your community. They're your neighbors. They're your, I mean, in Spanish, they say comadres, right? It's like your co-mothers, right? People that you see, people that, you know, I can think of it right now where I was like, I'm like, oh, I can't pick up Elvie from school. Like who's going to go? Like I can, there are five people, right?

00:37:29.800 That's different from somebody who I'm going to be my first call, like, you know, if somebody

00:37:34.900 gets sick.

00:37:36.340 Exactly.

00:37:36.800 Exactly.

00:37:37.260 I actually love this idea.

00:37:39.260 Now I have a whole other reporting project that I want to do when, maybe one day when

00:37:44.520 we don't have, when both of us don't have a thousand things, we could create this podcast.

00:37:47.600 But when I was marrying Nick and I was 35 and I had no idea how to be married, I traveled

00:37:53.700 around the world.

00:37:54.320 I was a travel journalist and interviewed people about how to be married and just learned

00:37:58.920 about marriage in different cultures, I would love to do that with friendship.

00:38:02.200 Oh, that's amazing.

00:38:03.840 I love that so much.

00:38:06.600 I love it so much that now I'm like, it has to be done.

00:38:08.740 I love that.

00:38:09.860 And let me just tell you, like I, for bizarre reasons, I have a lot of Brazilians in my 1.00

00:38:14.360 life and the way that Brazilians do friendship and fun and community is like, it's so off 1.00

00:38:20.020 the hook.

00:38:20.560 Like they party, they party with the kids.

00:38:24.200 They like stay up late.

00:38:25.360 they dance like the mothers and the daughters and the little kids and they really it's a it's a

00:38:31.560 definitely more is more type of philosophy you know right oh all right let's just let's put this

00:38:37.680 in our pocket okay yes absolutely i think this has to be done and i think that the world needs it

00:38:42.460 oh my god it's such a fun idea too it's i just it's just so great and it would be a lot of fun

00:38:47.340 And we'd get to go to a bunch of places.

00:38:50.020 Yeah, definitely.

00:38:51.560 Fine.

00:38:52.620 Fine.

00:38:53.220 We're doing it.

00:38:54.660 Oh.

00:38:55.360 Love it.

00:38:56.120 I love it so much.

00:38:57.940 Oh, my God.

00:38:58.780 Will you tell everyone where they can find you in all of your wonderful writing?

00:39:02.240 Yes.

00:39:02.760 I'm on Substack.

00:39:03.880 My Substack is called The Golden Hour.

00:39:06.620 And, yeah, that's the place to find me.

00:39:09.340 Wonderful.

00:39:10.060 And are there any other big projects coming up that you want to tell people about?

00:39:13.820 I'm working on a book.

00:39:15.120 Oh, my gosh.

00:39:15.500 I love it.

00:39:15.880 Yes.

00:39:16.400 It's called Falling in Love with the World Again, and it is about our emotional lives in this time of crisis.

00:39:24.300 Great.

00:39:24.920 I think we could all use that.

00:39:26.820 It's been amazing, and my friends have helped me get through it.

00:39:30.180 So, yeah.

00:39:31.900 Are you falling back in love with the world?

00:39:33.780 I am.

00:39:34.600 You know what?

00:39:35.000 I am.

00:39:35.400 I'm sort of giving yourself permission to have joy when things are so shitty, I think, is a really big part of it.

00:39:40.200 I agree.

00:39:40.760 That's a whole other podcast episode.

00:39:42.400 So we'll do that when you're closer to the book coming out, in addition to our book about global friendship.

00:39:47.220 Amazing.

00:39:47.800 I can't wait.

00:39:48.480 I can't wait either.

00:39:49.280 Thanks so much for being here.

00:39:50.480 Thanks for having me, Jo.

00:40:12.400 I don't think I can be your friend, Isabella said.

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Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - December 25, 2025

How to Build Deep Friendships Without Burning Yourself Out

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