00:05:52.880You know, he says he doesn't have to share their belief, their commitment.
00:05:57.100He doesn't go to church on a regular basis.
00:05:59.480But he is certainly willing to partner with people of religious, you know, backgrounds
00:06:06.180in order to make money and gain power.
00:06:09.340And that's a unifying place where I see it get missed.
00:06:14.320And it's frustrating because recently we're talking in this time where there's been this signal app leak where we have some of America's leading defense strategists, even including the vice president of the United States, on a signal app that gets included with the editor of The Atlantic.
00:06:34.120And one of the things that happens in this conversation on the Signal app is that they're planning missile strikes, and you see leading people from Trump's administration, including Defense Secretary Pete Hagseth, who has Christian crusader tattoos, you see them offering prayer hands after talking about missile strikes.
00:06:54.940Yeah. That is antithetical to the history of Jesus gospel, which is a gospel that calls for turning the other cheek, which is a gospel that calls for binding up the wounds of the broken hearted, a gospel that calls for caring for the poor, for liberating the captives.
00:07:16.900it's a gaslighting that is so maddening for me as someone who left journalism to
00:07:24.760become a pastor, but still works in the space of journalism as well. And it's maddening as a
00:07:29.100parent too, because there's a spiritual hunger. Like you see it, I see it in our communities,
00:07:35.240among other parents, we are longing for authentic community with one another. And what we're giving
00:07:41.980people is either no religion at all, total cynicism, nihilism, or we're giving them a grift.
00:07:50.600And that's what it often feels like to me. I too saw the prayer hands in the group text,0.79
00:07:57.280but they're group text. And I did not know until very recently that Pete Hegseth, the head of the
00:08:04.260DOD had these Crusader tattoos, which is just, I mean, the Crusades are a fascinating period
00:08:12.200of world history. I'm not even going to say Christian history, right? And such a patriarchal
00:08:19.920situation. And for me, the reason I've turned away from organized religion,
00:08:26.040I remain a spiritual person. I can't stand organized religion because of the men of it all,
00:08:30.640OK, I was raised Catholic. We know what's happened there. And there are so many incredible female religious leaders. But with in almost every version of every religion, I find so much male dominance that I can't handle it. And that's that. And that is always going to be my issue.
00:08:54.100I want us to take a quick break. And when we get back, I want to talk about the boys of it all,
00:08:58.960because I know this may be an unpopular opinion in progressive circles, but I think we have done
00:09:04.780young men a great disservice in this country. There is a reason that so many of them are turning to0.70
00:09:10.280the terrible, terrible world of influencers like Andrew Tate and the Joe Rogan brosphere.
00:09:18.860So I want to get into that and your book when we get back.
00:09:24.100And we are back. I want to talk about the boys of it all. I am a boy mom. I am trying to raise
00:09:36.280the best young man that I possibly can. I recently found out that it is Women's History Month.
00:09:43.740And I didn't recently find out it was Women's History Month, but I recently found out that
00:09:46.780because it is Women's History Month, they were explaining this in his second grade class. And
00:09:51.440my son, who was very shy, raised his hand and said, it's just history. To which I, you know,
00:10:00.440I feel like I'm doing something right at this point, I gotta say. I want to talk about the
00:10:06.560radicalization of young men, because we have seen that. And I do think it's because in a lot of ways,
00:10:13.980culture has done a disservice to young men. What are your thoughts on this?
00:10:18.360yeah i i resonate with what you said as i have two boys as well and my experience as a mom to them
00:10:28.560is right at the heart of disciples of white jesus you know it's it's a book that i approach as a
00:10:34.780pastor and a researcher and a journalist but really also as a mom uh i do want to say like
00:10:41.120on a hopeful perspective uh when i know before the break we were talking about uh just the the
00:10:47.740men of organized religion. And I certainly have dealt with that. You know, I have, I always tell
00:10:53.120people I encountered more sexism and discrimination in church spaces than I ever encountered in the
00:10:59.520hockey locker room when I was a hockey beat reporter. So it is, it is entrenched and it is
00:11:06.480really a danger. But what, what I also find myself saying a lot, and maybe we'll wait in the
00:11:14.500hope we'll get there by the end. We'll start with the question you just asked me. What I find is
00:11:21.760that in progressive spaces, there has been a reaction, which I understand and agree with in
00:11:29.840some ways as a feminist, that whenever you start to talk about white men and boys and what's going
00:11:35.460on with them at all, there's almost this knee-jerk response of, well, we don't need to talk about
00:11:40.720them. You know, they've had their turn. We don't even need to talk about them at all. On the
00:11:46.360practical side, what that's done is it's created a vacuum where there is just a dearth of content
00:11:53.480at all about masculinity, about what it means to be a man, about manhood itself in progressive or
00:12:01.640even just normal secular media spaces and progressive Christian spaces. So that when
00:12:08.340boys like our our sons and their friends and your loved ones and men and boys and people listening
00:12:15.700to this lives when they go online and they look you know what does it mean to be a man how do i
00:12:21.920think about dating how do i get relationship advice how do i get advice on getting bigger
00:12:28.580muscles uh immediately they are drawn towards some extreme corners of the internet and they're
00:12:36.260brought in there because, again, there's this vacuum of alternative content about different
00:12:42.180forms of masculinity. And so the online of it all, which is why I'm so glad we're having this
00:12:47.040conversation on this podcast, is a huge, huge part of it. And I'll just say from a theological
00:12:53.920perspective, too, for me, what this also betrays, you know, this knee-jerk reaction not to talk
00:13:00.780about white men and boys. For me, this is also a betrayal of just a very basic creational sense
00:13:07.840that for me, the foundation of my faith is that every single person was created in the image of
00:13:14.920God. Everybody. And I think we really get into trouble as a society or a culture when we
00:13:22.980dehumanize people and when we start to only understand people according to their group
00:13:28.920identity. That's been a problem for women. It's been a problem for Black people in America,1.00
00:13:33.780certainly. And it is also a problem for white men and boys. It becomes
00:13:38.460damaging to them internally and to our society as a whole.
00:13:45.200Absolutely. Absolutely. And I love what you say with the book. You know, you say
00:13:49.900white boys and men are dangerous. White boys and men are struggling. Two things can be true1.00
00:13:56.940at the same time. We know that most large-scale mass shootings are by white men, and white men0.98
00:14:05.920also die by suicide more often than any other demographic. And you've investigated these
00:14:12.880stories in such a thoughtful way and looked at the radicalization among young white men
00:14:19.860in America, especially focusing on right-wing Christianity. What are some of the rabbit holes
00:14:25.680that you went down when you were researching this? Yeah, you know, my, the through line for me
00:14:32.540with both of my books, the first one about the 2016 election and Christian's role in Trump's
00:14:37.440first election, and then this book, is that I think there's this tendency to immediately want
00:14:44.360to separate ourselves from anything that seems damaging or concerning. And so you see this in
00:14:49.780the, in conversation around racism, that people are very quick to say, well, I'm not racist,
00:14:54.660But and we see it in this space around white men and boys when people find out about, for example, a white supremacist mass shooter of which we've sadly had very prominent examples of within the past few years in this country.
00:15:11.980And my book really starts by focusing on the story of one of those men, Dylan Roof, who committed one of the most horrific incidents of mass shootings in America at Mother Emanuel Church in Charleston, South Carolina.
00:15:29.200One of the preeminent examples of power and strength and resilience of the Black church, he committed the shooting after staying in Bible study with the participants for an hour.
00:15:39.440but the through line for me is that I want to which is not always a fun selling point right
00:15:47.380but I want to invite people to see themselves in that which we might initially abhor because it's
00:15:58.120not until we are able to see ourselves specifically as white Americans and I'll say
00:16:03.580even especially as white christians until we can really see ourselves in that which is so destructive
00:16:11.360then we're not able to heal it this is a problem that needs an internal solution and so i start
00:16:18.800with this story of dylan rift because he does not come from a conservative evangelical background
00:16:23.980he comes from a progressive mainline denomination the evangelical lutheran church in america which
00:16:29.620is where I've been ordained over the past 10 years. And my focus on his story involves speaking
00:16:36.720with his pastor and unpacking his pastor's own sense of grief, of shame, of guilt, emotions that
00:16:46.340men are often told never to share. Don't be vulnerable. Don't be empathetic. And in sharing
00:16:55.000these emotions, what the pastor was also able to share with me and take some real halting steps
00:17:01.740towards possibly beginning to work towards healing some of the long-standing racism in our
00:17:10.360communities, he was also able to note that not only did he know the shooter, but he also knew
00:17:16.780deeply the pastor, Clementa Pickney, who was one of the shooter's victims on that day and who was
00:17:23.060the pastor at Mother Emanuel. And the way he knew him was that they had been together preparing
00:17:28.400ashes for Ash Wednesday, which is this day in Christian tradition of repentance and of becoming
00:17:34.480aware of our own sin and complicity. So that, I think, is such an important first step, and it's
00:17:39.600a difficult one. But when we're able to see ourselves in our own communities and places
00:17:45.120where radicalization is happening right at home, in progressive spaces, in affluent neighborhoods,
00:17:50.820then we're able to make changes at home and we won't feel so powerless and feel like well i'm
00:17:56.260calling my representative i'm voting nothing's changing the actual changes we can make are in
00:18:02.360our own communities so we have to find the places where these things are happening in our own
00:18:06.960communities yeah and i think i want to go back a little bit to the the trad wives of it because
00:18:15.720Because by putting forth this idea that women's highest role is to be in the home, to be a wife and a mother, to be of service to a man, that also puts a lot of pressure on men to, you know, quote, step up, to quote man up.
00:18:37.360And I think that that does not work for a lot of men. This idea of masculinity as defined in a lot of these online spaces by people like Andrew Tate is terrifying to a lot of young men. And that has led to a lot of this anger, outrage, and loneliness. Because don't you think it's limiting the identities for young Christian men across America?
00:19:03.340Yeah, you stole the word out of my mouth. Identity. And this is where, though, the parents who are listening to this show can feel empowered that part of this work is opening up alternative masculine identities for young boys and men.
00:19:22.200And and often that that can be shown by the men who are already in their lives.
00:19:27.660You know, I love when you share, Joe, about your marriage and about Nick and the different ways that you guys are navigating changing identities and the role of work in your lives, the role of caregiving in your lives.
00:19:42.280But what I have seen in, you know, I went to college at the University of Missouri and I distinctly remember, you know, I went to Campus Crusades for a while, thankfully stepped out of that space.
00:19:53.180But I was in a number of Bible studies where I was the only person who was baptized as a baby and that there was this distinct tradition of Southern Baptist evangelical theology and tradition.
00:20:05.900And so I knew a lot of people who were very much pressured by their churches, by their faith groups to get married quickly after college.
00:20:15.020And what I saw over and over again in these spaces, and you can see this even prominently in Christian celebrities and leading folks in this movement, is you would have women and young women who were very driven, very type A, very sort of alpha type personalities, who were being told by the church that they needed to be submissive, that they needed to follow their husbands, including especially when it came to roles of faith in the church.
00:20:43.380but you it's it's kind of difficult to have two super hard charging alpha type personalities in
00:20:49.900a marriage so often these girls that i knew would end up marrying men that were just shyer quieter
00:20:57.060more introverted type of people didn't mean they weren't strong in their own ways didn't mean they
00:21:02.040didn't have a strong masculinity but they they were attracted to these women because they balanced
00:21:08.420each other out well but at the same time these men were being told by their churches by their
00:21:12.660faith groups. You need to be the leader in the church, in the family. You need to step up.
00:21:17.460And so both people are being asked to be something very different than what they were created to be.
00:21:23.820They're being asked to play against their own identities. And as we've seen tragically from
00:21:29.380stories of LGBTQ people who were treated so badly by the church, this is a similar situation in
00:21:37.040heterosexual marriages. You have people who are being told to act very differently than
00:21:41.400the way that they were created to be. And so you have wives constantly saying to their husbands,
00:21:46.280you got to step up, you got to lead. And husbands that aren't equipped to lead in that way,0.64
00:21:53.380this leads to all kinds of broken relationships, not a great situation for the kids. It can lead
00:21:59.260to abuse. Male insecurity is the source of a lot of problems in America right now,
00:22:07.240even at the highest levels from what I can see. I think male insecurity is so high right now,
00:22:13.680and it is something that we are just not talking about again because it seems kind of taboo,
00:22:19.640right? To be like, why are we talking about men's problems? Well, you know what? Things are not
00:22:24.480going to get better for women unless we talk about men. And I think so many of the reasons0.97
00:22:29.080that so much of feminism failed is because men weren't taught how to do this. Men weren't taught1.00
00:22:35.080how to support women. Okay. We just, we told women how to change, how to take on the world
00:22:39.880and become a girl boss, but we didn't teach men how to be supportive human beings. And that has
00:22:45.320led us to this moment. I mean, that's a sermon that I'm saying amen to. Amen. I love it when
00:22:52.380a pastor says amen to me. I want to take one more quick break. And when we get back, let's talk
00:22:57.420about solutions. Let's talk about hope. There are such good men out there and boys, the boys of
00:23:04.080today are not anything yet that's the thing like we get the chance to mold them so how are we going
00:23:09.360to fix this situation okay we're back reverend can you give me a little hope right now yeah let's
00:23:24.660bring it home with uh with a little altar call them just i don't do those uh so we're talking
00:23:30.860this morning uh the evening after my book launch and as i was reflecting on what happened there i0.71
00:23:40.240was seeing so many sources of hope for this very problem that we're talking about for white boys0.79
00:23:45.640and men both externally and the danger that they pose to others when they are brought into0.63
00:23:50.060radicalization and also the ways that they're they're struggling internally with forming
00:23:54.880masculine identities that aren't rooted in anger or violence or suppression of emotions.
00:24:01.680So first of all, just that we were talking earlier about the problem of organized religion
00:24:09.260that is often rooted in problematic men. And we also saw a few months ago, a bishop,
00:24:17.560Marian Booty, who challenged President Donald Trump and was just received so resoundingly as
00:24:24.240this voice of faith and calm and love that people wanted to hear. And so my book launch had to get
00:24:30.500rescheduled at the last minute. It was supposed to be in a bookstore. We had over a hundred people
00:24:34.620coming and we just weren't going to fit. And so lo and behold, we ended up holding it in a church,
00:24:40.540which for me as a pastor, I was like, gosh, I just wanted one event, not in a church.
00:24:45.060But the church we ended up holding it at was her former congregation. And so I felt held in this
00:24:51.880space by this equally strong tradition in Christianity of strong women who have been
00:24:59.500leaders in the church and who have been effectively silenced by a lot of the traditions that are
00:25:05.960threatening boys and men right now in our country. But the other hope that I saw last night was just
00:25:13.020all the men who were there, you know, young men, fathers of young children, my son and his friends
00:25:20.300who were there who wanted to wait in line and get books signed for themselves these are nine
00:25:25.080ten-year-old boys uh you know my i have a younger brother and he lives out of town but a whole group
00:25:31.800of his friends young men in their early to mid 30s they came to attend the event they're helping
00:25:37.560to put away chairs they're sitting there and i'm looking out and i'm talking about all the fear
00:25:44.100and worry and violence that we're confronted with as parents of men and boys in this space,
00:25:51.680as people that are really susceptible to the radicalization and money-making power
00:25:57.280of traditionalist gender roles that exist right now on the internet and in American politics.
00:26:03.220And yet I saw the willingness of so many different people, including, again, young men themselves,
00:26:09.100to want to come and listen to a woman talk to them
00:26:33.100So I think that when we can have and make space
00:26:37.300for men who represent all different kinds of masculinity, which is what I attempt to do in
00:26:42.120the final chapter of the book as well, with stories of men who came out of radicalization.
00:26:47.560Those stories and narratives and examples are really, really powerful. And they begin to give
00:26:52.960us alternative narratives that we can share with our boys. I think these alternative narratives
00:26:58.420are so important. One of the things that we started talking about on WHYY today was how much
00:27:05.520more progressive pop culture was in the 80s than it is today. We had Who's the Boss, where Angela
00:27:12.620is out making the money and Tony is cleaning the toilets, right? We had Kate and Allie, two single0.99
00:27:19.120moms living together in a chosen family. We had One Day at a Time. We had Claire Huxtable, who's
00:27:25.000a total badass. And, you know, I just mentioned Claire without getting into the Bill Cosby of it1.00
00:27:29.120all. And I don't think pop culture is nearly as progressive today. I don't think we see enough
00:27:35.920role models of this. And it's why I keep trying to get Nick to talk more on this podcast about
00:27:41.540where he's at right now in how he has taken over the primary parent role for our family,
00:27:48.560because I think men are hungry for it. And I want our boys to see it. I want our boys to aspire to
00:27:55.120it? Because we also know that this isn't about being a rabid feminist. This is about creating1.00
00:28:00.420a more equal and happy partnership and a life. It is. And it's heartbreaking to see. And I've
00:28:07.720heard these stories from in my work as a pastor and just in my own family as well. I've heard
00:28:13.060stories from men in their 70s, 80s, 60s when they read the book and they start to uncover all the
00:28:20.240ways that they were socialized into a certain kind of gender role. I see this immense sadness
00:28:27.980as they say, yeah, that was my experience. You know, I thought that if I was empathetic,
00:28:33.940that I was weak. And you have these men, again, who have lived long lives, who have
00:28:41.960been forcing themselves into a box. Again, we know as women, we've done that too. We've been
00:28:49.900forced into a box. And I think, as you're saying, covering this other side of that the box has not
00:28:55.820been good for men either. That's why, as Bishop Yehel Curry says in my book, we've got to break
00:29:02.600out of the box. We've got to break out of the box. And I keep encouraging this, too, when I talk to
00:29:11.060Hollywood studios and TV execs, because I think that television is such a great way to shift
00:29:17.520culture and change culture. And I just I just want to see more more varieties of dad characters
00:29:24.320on TV and in movies. Yeah, I keep telling people, you know, we've got to get get Disney to pay
00:29:31.240attention and create some some male heroes who look a little bit different. We've had it with
00:29:36.940with in Disney films, with women getting to inhabit different spaces. I still think there's1.00
00:29:42.860a pretty narrow lens for men. They're either kind of goofy or they're toxic.0.99
00:29:50.260Absolutely. Absolutely. As a Christian pastor, I need you to explain Tradwives to me. I need you0.97
00:29:58.320to explain how this happened. Was it always going to happen? Was this just inevitable?
00:30:05.580Ooh, I love that question. And I am going to try not to talk for our entire time answering it.
00:30:10.840I think there was a bit of inevitability with it. And we're also seeing with Tradwives, what is old is new again, of course. And what this speaks to, I think, the most is this combination of ancient traditionalist theology and religious practice with modern day media.0.96
00:30:32.820You know, megachurches have done this for a long time. They use sort of the trappings of modern technology. They make things look really pretty and they make things look aesthetically desirable.
00:30:46.520but they're giving us the same old messages that have come out of fundamentalist religions for
00:30:54.260centuries. So the Mormons are the ones who kind of kick this off by saying that they need to use
00:31:01.500social media in order to get their folks to learn the gospel and follow Jesus, but the evangelicals0.80
00:31:08.460have been right behind. Yeah, I mean, and that's what I've been seeing. When I think about Chad
00:31:16.800Wives on social media and just how aesthetically pleasing it can be in a world that in real life
00:31:23.480is not at all aesthetically pleasing, it does seem as if we're getting the imagery in the media that
00:31:29.060we deserve at this point. I think so. And at the same time, you know, I get it. I have been
00:31:36.540living in my own whirlwind of stress with this being our season of lent which means it's a really
00:31:43.380busy time in the church and then i'm also launching a book and i find myself unplugging
00:31:48.020by watching hairstyling reels from the secret lives of mormon wives uh oh i i get why people
00:31:56.440do it to unplug and at the same time you know like the like the young men and boys who i research and
00:32:02.260their paths into radicalization. The algorithm has so much control that even if we're watching
00:32:09.000something not to approve of it, even if we're kind of hate watching things, nonetheless,
00:32:13.780we keep getting fed it and it makes money. Ultimately, this is about making money for
00:32:18.620these platforms. It is about making money for these platforms. And a lot of the tradwives,
00:32:24.740as we well know at this point, are also capitalists. They are performing this because
00:32:31.560they know it does well for the algorithm. They're not living this. And yet they're injecting
00:32:37.400something very dangerous into the zeitgeist. We could talk about this all day. We really could.
00:32:43.600But for right now, tell everyone where they can find you, your incredible work, and your new book.
00:32:49.060Yes. So Disciples of White Jesus, The Radicalization of American Boyhood,
00:32:53.260out everywhere books are sold. Also, please connect with me on Substack. It's just
00:32:57.920AngelaDenker.Substack.com. I'm Listening is the name of my newsletter. I cover everything from
00:33:04.440religion to social issues to parenting, but the focus of it is listening and hearing one another's
00:33:10.360stories and kind of filling that spiritual hunger that so many of us have without the trappings of
00:33:18.080a lot of the problems of religion. And that is all we have for today. I love that, Reverend.
00:33:25.000I do. Amen to her. Pick up Angela's book, Disciples of White Jesus, wherever you get your
00:33:32.160books. Make sure to subscribe to the Over the Influence newsletter and grab your copy if
00:33:37.220everyone is lying to you. Because you know what? We really just need some trad wives murdering
00:33:41.580their shitty toxic husbands right now, don't we? Don't we? Isn't that what everybody wants?1.00
00:33:45.780You're amazing. Go do something nice for yourself. You deserve it.