Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - What's Worse Than The Glass Ceiling？ The Broken Rung!

00:00:00.000 You want to impress them on a first date, but also play it cool. So what do you do?

00:00:06.700 I'm Rufy Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinged couple that navigated

00:00:11.420 exactly that. Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:00:20.320 If the career ladder is a real thing, I think I might have fallen off of it a long time ago.

00:00:25.820 Or maybe, maybe that's not right. Maybe my career is more of like a fancy jungle gym.

00:00:32.840 You know, the kind of the nice playgrounds on the other side of town, where you climb up and over

00:00:38.180 and sideways and then down again for a little while, then maybe onto a fun but kind of precarious

00:00:43.660 rope swing. You know, the kinds that are all made from beautiful organic materials.

00:00:49.300 Because to me, careers no longer seem linear. And the career world seems to constantly be

00:00:55.280 changing the rules. This is going to be more true than ever, as AI climbs the career ladder like a

00:01:03.760 bitchy vine, changing the structure of everything. I'm Joe Piazza, and you're listening to Under the

00:01:11.940 Influence. Now you've all heard about the glass ceiling. But what if the first step on that career

00:01:20.000 ladder was actually broken? Or rather, what if the first step on that ladder was broken for women 1.00

00:01:27.320 from the get-go? Because I've got some pretty shocking statistics for you today. For every

00:01:35.980 hundred men promoted at entry level, only 81 women get the same kind of promotion.

00:01:42.440 And there's so much more where that comes from. Today we're talking to McKinsey senior partner

00:01:47.860 Lorena Yee. She's the co-author of the book The Broken Rung, which reveals why the first step in

00:01:53.560 your career ladder might be sabotaging your entire professional journey. She's also got plenty of

00:01:59.600 advice about what we can do about it. This episode is not just for people starting out.

00:02:07.260 Over the next five years, millions and millions of jobs are going to change because of artificial

00:02:12.180 intelligence. So even if you think you've already climbed that ladder, even if you think you're done,

00:02:19.120 you may still be starting at the beginning.

00:02:26.940 Is the career ladder for women broken? Is there a broken rung on it? And if so, 1.00

00:02:33.260 where? Because I just want to know where not to step. So your very first step is broken, Jo.

00:02:38.080 So you may have climbed over it with success.

00:02:42.100 But here's the thing.

00:02:43.600 For every 100 men at the entry level that get that first big promotion, that first opportunity, the odds for women are 81. 0.62

00:02:52.960 So 100 to 81. 0.89

00:02:54.700 I think that's a broken step.

00:02:56.900 And it's the first step up the ladder.

00:03:01.020 Yes.

00:03:01.620 Yes, indeed.

00:03:02.880 It is.

00:03:03.860 Yes, indeed.

00:03:04.340 So that was worse.

00:03:05.300 That was a worse answer than I thought it was going to be.

00:03:11.500 So not to make you depressed.

00:03:13.460 No, we want to bring joy in this show, but we talk about a lot of depressing things.

00:03:18.640 So the goal is always to talk about the depressing things and then how we can fix them.

00:03:23.340 Exactly.

00:03:23.940 So just a little more depression, and then I swear to God, we'll have lots and lots of joy.

00:03:28.080 But that number has been very stubborn over the last decade.

00:03:32.940 So in other parts of the ladder, we've seen improvement. So at the very top, what we call

00:03:38.720 the glass ceiling, the people who have the executive leadership roles, we've seen an

00:03:42.880 improvement. We're almost at 30%. We're 29% women in the top leadership roles in the United States.

00:03:50.360 That's great. But here's the problem. If the first step is broken, you lose the vast majority of

00:03:58.680 women very early you either lose them they get stuck they get stalled uh and that's that's the

00:04:06.860 problem so it's usually it is happening in and say like the first five years of a woman's career

00:04:15.760 right yes how can women tell if they're on that broken rung because i think a lot of young women

00:04:23.420 And this happened to me when I was first starting out in my career.

00:04:27.320 We just think that this is the way work is supposed to be, or we think that things are

00:04:31.340 supposed to be hard.

00:04:32.700 And a lot of us also have been told to tough it out.

00:04:37.060 So how do we know if something is actually broken, if it's not us?

00:04:43.240 So you're not going to hear like a crack in your career at that moment.

00:04:47.780 So I do agree.

00:04:49.160 It's hard to know.

00:04:50.800 But here are some of the signs.

00:04:52.200 you get a promotion without a pay raise. You get passed over for a promotion. You go to another

00:04:58.580 company because you feel like you've missed a promotion and it's a lateral move as opposed to

00:05:03.940 actually getting an upgrade. There are a lot of changes you will likely make in the first five,

00:05:10.680 seven years of your career, where if you reflect on what's happening, you feel that you're stalling.

00:05:17.000 And at that point, it doesn't mean that you have to despair, but like, let's get tactical. What would you do? Would you actually talk to your manager about what is the path for that promotion? Would you ask, kind of raise your hand for a high visibility project? Would you increase your network so that you have more people that are opening doors for you versus your own energy trying to open those doors?

00:05:42.620 would you make a bold move and change jobs? We know that millennials change jobs four to five

00:05:48.940 times over their career. Maybe you have to make that bold move in order to have more opportunities.

00:05:55.940 But the key is you should actively manage your career from day one.

00:06:01.660 You know, and I don't think that anyone was necessarily telling me that when I started out

00:06:08.680 in my career many, many years ago. I mean, you know, about 25 years ago, no one was saying that

00:06:15.720 no one was saying to actively manage your career. And then, you know, a few years later, we were

00:06:20.700 starting to get all of the lean in advice. I don't know if that was the best either, because I think

00:06:29.160 we just needed, we needed to learn a little bit more about how the system was set up against us,

00:06:35.300 how the the playing field simply wasn't level and you talk a lot about this how is the playing field

00:06:40.360 just not level when we start out it's not even it's it's not level but before we even get on the

00:06:45.640 ladder right it's not uh so first of all i think to your point on lean in it's sort of like lean

00:06:52.160 in ant so in the last decade since that book came out we've learned a lot more so let's just put it

00:06:58.800 as an amp. And so your question is, if I'm starting out, what's the environment I'm walking

00:07:05.840 into? So here's the deal. Women outperform men in formal education. They get higher grades and

00:07:13.740 they are a greater percentage of the graduates. We know that women in the United States are 51% 1.00

00:07:18.740 of the population and hold 59% of the bachelor degrees. So women are great students. But here's 0.97

00:07:26.420 a thing. 50% of your lifetime earnings come from experience on the job. We call that experience

00:07:33.140 capital. And we need, as women, to succeed as well as we did in school in the work world to get that

00:07:41.160 experience capital and put ourselves in a great position. You know, it's a little bit of a

00:07:46.620 traditional analogy, so I don't know if people will relate to it. But I had parents who were

00:07:52.920 immigrants and they said, look, you know, you should think about savings and, you know, your

00:07:57.400 kind of compound value over time. And, you know, you save a little, you know, even though you're 0.99

00:08:03.000 not making very much, you're just starting your career over time. If you invest that, that's a

00:08:07.180 lot of money for your lifetime. And that same concept of putting a little bit away grows to a

00:08:15.160 big amount over time. Think about that in terms of how you're investing in your career. When you

00:08:21.280 are a little bit bolder, when you get that promotion a little bit earlier, when you actually

00:08:26.400 increase your salary, all of these things, if you do them early, make a huge difference over the long

00:08:34.860 run. Right, right, exactly, exactly. And I like that idea, the idea of thinking about it like

00:08:43.740 compound interest, like investing in yourself, because I will say, and I don't even want to say

00:08:50.020 young women in this, because I think so many of us are also kind of starting out in new careers

00:08:57.300 at a lot of different ages, right? There's so many different pivots. So many industries are

00:09:02.200 also just going away, right? And so we have no choice but to reinvent and rebuild ourselves,

00:09:09.840 maybe in something that is quite entry level in our 40s or 50s or 60s. So I think that this advice

00:09:18.040 is for all of us. But I think in the beginning, it's very easy to be nervous about rocking the

00:09:26.740 boat, right? And like being nervous about asking for too much. Is that something that we really

00:09:33.100 shouldn't be afraid of? Doing good work and being rewarded for it is called meritocracy. And that is

00:09:42.020 always something you should stand up for. So I agree. When you're in your first job,

00:09:48.400 those first years, you're not certain. You feel like you're on soft ground. And that's part of

00:09:54.440 the reason why we wrote this book is to make it more clear, to make it more obvious. What are some

00:10:00.640 of the things to think about? So of course, you're going to do good work and you're going to be nosed

00:10:05.980 down and deliver results. But I think a key message for a young woman is that is not enough. 1.00

00:10:11.320 You also need to build your networks. You also need to lift up your chin from your work and see where are there other opportunities and acquire skills that make a huge difference. So one of them is entrepreneurship. How do you take initiative? It's not just about becoming a founder of a company. It's also about how do you take initiative early and create things within the company that you work with.

00:10:35.560 And so there are a lot of things that you can do early.

00:10:39.440 And by the way, in terms of job shifts, we know that number will be 12 million jobs shifting

00:10:44.620 by 2030.

00:10:46.420 Oh, my gosh.

00:10:47.560 Wait, Bab, I want to talk about that for a minute.

00:10:50.320 Actually, OK, let's take our first break.

00:10:51.940 Let's take our first break.

00:10:52.840 And then I want to hear about that number.

00:10:55.160 Because I do think that it's important to remind people that things are changing, even

00:11:00.020 if they haven't changed for your industry.

00:11:01.720 This advice is so relevant to all of us because there is a shake-up right now and coming for even more of us.

00:11:13.200 You matched on Hinge. You're vibing. Then her energy completely changes. What do you do?

00:11:20.220 I'm Raven Smith, and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact sitch. Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:11:26.700 okay we're back tell me again that number you just said the number that i that that made me

00:11:35.640 gasp a little bit so 12 million occupations will change between now and 2030 those will create

00:11:44.160 new opportunities new jobs and opportunities but also will change and also get rid of some

00:11:52.020 of the traditional opportunities. So if you think of growing occupations, healthcare is expected to

00:11:58.200 grow by 30%. But there are shrinking occupations, things like customer service, food service,

00:12:05.260 physical production-oriented jobs. And so what's really important in this is to go where the jobs

00:12:12.180 are and understand the skills that will make you successful as jobs change. And so that's something

00:12:18.260 that is relevant when you're 25, or whether you're 45. So, you know, one thing, like one

00:12:24.580 underlying skill that I think is really important is technology. And I obviously spend a ton of time

00:12:29.660 in the technology sector. So of course, I come with that. But if we think about what opens up

00:12:35.620 opportunities, and what will transform work, technology should be a positive influence. If

00:12:41.060 you have those skills, irrespective of whether you got them in your formal education, get them

00:12:45.800 on the job because everyone can be a technologist. You know, Joe, in our book, one of the stories we

00:12:52.500 have, which you may know already, but I think it's a fabulous story, is Carly Bloss. And most people

00:12:58.060 think of her as a supermodel on the cover of Vogue. But she actually was a great math and science 1.00

00:13:04.400 student before she became a supermodel. And then when she became a supermodel, she met a lot of

00:13:09.900 successful leaders. And it's like, what's the common denominator? Coding. And so she enrolls

00:13:16.160 herself in a 12-week program to learn how to code. And she herself became a technologist.

00:13:22.100 And I just think for anyone of any age, think about how these skills become so important to

00:13:29.600 you over the course of your total career. That's the insurance we need.

00:13:33.840 right exactly exactly i mean i think we're throwing around a lot of you know kind of

00:13:40.140 finance-y consulting corporate speak here but i think about how to hedge against this

00:13:46.520 all the time right so i mean i talk about on the show a lot how i feel like i have five jobs now

00:13:53.020 because i do have five jobs i used to have one job i used to be a journalist who wrote at a

00:13:59.220 newspaper. And now I write books and make podcasts and make newsletters and also do

00:14:05.840 consulting. And this creates a mosaic of a career. I do all of these things. I like the majority of

00:14:13.900 them. There's 25% of my jobs that I'm like, oh my God, I would quit this tomorrow. But I also do

00:14:21.220 them because I know that one thing may start to wane at some point. Same as my freelance journalism

00:14:30.480 career. Like you used to really be able to make a solid, robust living as a freelance journalist.

00:14:36.820 That is not the case for most people any longer. So I think about all of these projects and this

00:14:43.780 kind of portfolio life, as my friend Christina Wallace calls it at Harvard, as a way to hedge

00:14:50.580 against these changes? Well, Joe, it's also a way to have joy. Back to the thing we mentioned at the

00:14:57.480 very beginning, because some of this will earn your income, but some of this brings you energy

00:15:03.000 in different ways. And behind all of it is the core of your journalism skills, but also the

00:15:09.320 entrepreneurship. And so, yes, I think it hedges your future career, but it also opens up more

00:15:15.840 opportunity. And I don't know, 25% you don't like that. That's not terrible. Like, it's not

00:15:22.320 terrible. Right? No, pretty good. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. And I think about this

00:15:28.740 a lot, too, when a lot of people hate 100% of their jobs, you know, and I am a person who talks

00:15:36.300 a lot about trad wives and women checking out of the workforce. And I think a lot of women would

00:15:40.580 check out because they don't enjoy their jobs, or women do often get treated terribly in the 1.00

00:15:45.220 workforce. So I'm lucky that I like 75% of the things I do. And it might even be more than that.

00:15:50.480 I'm just tired. Well, if, you know, we apply that 75% to people listening, I think it's worth

00:15:58.420 saying, what's your percentage? And, you know, one of the first chapters in our book is choose

00:16:03.800 a company, not a job. And the idea is it's not just about the literal job that you're offered

00:16:10.200 or the job that you create in your case, it's also picking a place for a portfolio that allows

00:16:17.740 you to grow and be happy and probably supports your success. And so for women who may be changing 1.00

00:16:24.480 jobs or maybe starting out, I think it's important to ask some questions about the kind of culture

00:16:31.580 and environment you're going to be entering. Are they supportive of women growing? But also,

00:16:36.080 if you really don't like your job, make a bold move and go to where you're going to find joy

00:16:42.700 and go where there's more opportunity in the economy. Yeah, I agree. Even though it's scary

00:16:48.620 because these movements are always going to be scary. They truly are. So what is your best advice

00:16:58.980 for women who are starting just starting in their career in the very beginning or who are starting 0.97

00:17:07.580 over is it to choose a court to choose who you're working with instead of choosing the job

00:17:13.320 i think success isn't a solo act so

00:17:18.400 when i listen to your description the potentials it sounds really lonely and scary like i've got

00:17:26.680 to do all this on my own. And sometimes just because you're capable of doing it all on your

00:17:32.520 own doesn't mean that's the best approach. And maybe to put a little bit more science to that,

00:17:37.640 we know that both women and men who succeed have really strong networks. And they don't just have

00:17:43.700 mentors who empathize with them, they have sponsors. And sponsors are the people who open

00:17:48.080 up opportunities. And so whether you're starting out or you're shifting in your career, think about

00:17:55.040 the network of people that you have and actually build a bigger village because you are very

00:18:02.020 talented, but it is a lot easier to do this as a team sport.

00:18:08.240 It is.

00:18:09.160 It is.

00:18:09.500 But I think that we've also been taught about this very American idea that, you know, success

00:18:15.740 is singular, that it is all you, that it is not a team sport to be successful.

00:18:22.680 And I think shaking that is kind of hard for a lot of people.

00:18:27.580 On the one hand, you do need to be entrepreneurial and create your own destiny.

00:18:32.340 But in the vast majority of cases, there are people opening doors with you, for you, together.

00:18:39.440 And honestly, I think some of the best, most inspirational women leaders I've worked with pay that forward to other women.

00:18:47.460 So, you know, I think it's a mix of things.

00:18:52.100 It's not so absolute.

00:18:54.180 But I also just think that when you are, at least for me, I would say that work is never 100% perfect.

00:19:04.100 You will have low days.

00:19:05.720 Even if you have a high quotient of sugar in your diet, there will be days where it's just not working.

00:19:12.060 And having a friend to call, having a sponsor to say, hey, I think I screwed up on something.

00:19:20.180 How do I recover?

00:19:22.080 I just think having someone to share your journey with is really, really helpful because the ads are kind of against women.

00:19:29.920 So it's pretty hard if you're doing it by yourself.

00:19:34.260 It's pretty hard if you're doing anything by yourself.

00:19:38.380 I mean, anything.

00:19:39.700 And so much of this is stacked against us.

00:19:44.540 You also talk a lot in the book about how, you know, you don't think it's ever too late to gain this experience capital.

00:19:51.360 I love this story about Karlie Kloss learning to code.

00:19:55.280 And even as you're telling me this story, I'm like, I think it's too late for me to learn to code.

00:20:00.200 But it's not, right?

00:20:02.560 It's never too late.

00:20:04.460 And you mentioned like up to your 60s or your 70s.

00:20:08.340 I mean, women on average live longer than men.

00:20:10.800 So first of all, we've got much more runway to experience things and to learn.

00:20:17.340 And, you know, you can teach yourself to code at any point.

00:20:20.700 But also, let's just talk about the buzzword of the day, generative AI.

00:20:24.820 One of the best things about generative AI is anyone of any language, any age can be

00:20:30.340 a power user.

00:20:31.780 It is so intuitive and easy to use.

00:20:34.920 Now, it's very difficult to create those LLM models.

00:20:37.620 But once they are created and, you know, there are all sorts of additions that are free, just start using it and become a power user.

00:20:46.840 We know AI will shift jobs, work, activities in a pretty dramatic way over the next two decades.

00:20:53.680 So take the opportunity to embrace that and get ahead of it.

00:20:58.600 I also think like a long-term skill that women did so well in their formal education, 0.65

00:21:06.720 They just need to bring it to work is curiosity, curiosity, and courage to learn.

00:21:12.060 You're never too late to do that.

00:21:14.240 And oh, by the way, there was one story of this amazing woman who was this kick-ass

00:21:19.740 lawyer in tech, and then she decided to raise her three kids. 1.00

00:21:24.580 And then after that, she came back to the workplace, and she got one of those rebound

00:21:30.200 jobs. 0.86

00:21:30.600 And yes, she had to check her ego at the door because, of course, she's not going to be 0.89

00:21:33.540 a senior executive.

00:21:34.260 She wasn't working for the last 12 years.

00:21:36.720 But she's back in the game.

00:21:38.560 And when you, like, it doesn't come through in the book, but when you meet her, her energy

00:21:43.820 and vitality for what she's doing, it's so amazing.

00:21:49.720 Oh, I love that.

00:21:51.600 And I love talking about curiosity.

00:21:53.200 I think about this a lot.

00:21:54.360 I think curiosity is so undervalued in our society, generally, but especially in the

00:22:01.580 workplace, especially in the corporate workplace.

00:22:03.800 You know, I would rather work with someone who was curious about something than someone who is necessarily the best at something, because I think that that is such an asset, someone who just is constantly wanting to learn.

00:22:19.600 this which leads me into my next phase of questioning let's which we'll get to after

00:22:27.640 this break is if you've climbed the ladder if you've made it past the broken rung you've skipped

00:22:33.080 up it right what can you be doing to then help people help lift them over that broken rung

00:22:39.620 to get them to where you are to try to we're using so many so many analogies and metaphors

00:22:46.860 right now. You know, we're leveling the playing field. We're fixing the broken rung. Like,

00:22:50.840 what can you do as someone who has succeeded to make it better for the people who are coming

00:22:54.720 after you? And we'll get to that after one more quick break.

00:23:04.340 Saying how you feel out loud is terrifying. But that's what Hinge's new free audiobook,

00:23:09.300 No Ordinary Love, is all about.

00:23:11.520 It's a collection of real love stories about five couples that met on Hinge.

00:23:18.140 The stories are written and read by Tembi Dinton Hurst, Nicola Dinan, Curtis Garner, Raven Smith, and Rufi Thorpe.

00:23:25.180 I, Hunter Harris, wrote and read the foreword.

00:23:28.460 The audiobook's out now. Give it a listen.

00:23:35.940 Okay, we're back. 1.00

00:23:37.840 How can we fix all of these many analogies about the broken system that women live in? 1.00

00:23:43.940 So first, work on climbing that ladder yourself. 1.00

00:23:50.580 I don't mean to say that in a selfish way, but we need women to become leaders.

00:23:56.140 And we know that women are just as ambitious to succeed as men. 0.73

00:23:59.760 So take that positive ambition and run it down the line.

00:24:03.060 And so now I'm going to introduce another analogy.

00:24:05.240 and this one I'm not qualified for because it was a sports analogy. So in any case, I would take your

00:24:10.200 ambition and run with it. And then I think the second thing is when you are senior and that

00:24:16.480 happens quick, you could be a first line manager, you could be the CEO. It's so crucial to think

00:24:22.640 about how you give back and how you start to change the system. And so really simple things

00:24:29.540 like putting a spotlight on, are we actually promoting in a fair way at that first level?

00:24:38.520 If you're a manager, if you're a leader of an organization, most likely you do sit in the

00:24:43.640 review committee. So make sure that the discussion that you're having in April is a fair one,

00:24:51.060 that it's de-biased, and that actually the most qualified people are the ones getting the

00:24:56.020 promotion. And we know that that does not often happen for women. So just something as simple as

00:25:02.720 giving back in the process that you already live in is great. Or take the time, you know, to mentor

00:25:11.540 women and take the time to offer them opportunities. Or just plus the bias because you have some power

00:25:19.760 in the meeting. So a really concrete example is, you know, women are two times more likely to be 1.00

00:25:25.200 talked over and their ideas stolen from them. And so we're in a meeting, you know, you and I were

00:25:29.580 sitting there with like, you know, 12 men. And let's say Stacey brings up a great idea. And maybe

00:25:36.020 she's not very senior. And then a guy just talks over her. And it's not intentional. These are

00:25:41.000 unintentional biases that happen, but they're still biases. The best thing that you and I can do, Joe,

00:25:46.780 is to say, wait a second. Stacey had a great idea. Can you just repeat that one more time?

00:25:52.740 so you didn't make the guy feel bad because it's not as if he was trying to hurt Stacey

00:25:58.520 but it was a biased moment and you bring the spotlight back to her and you bring her back

00:26:03.880 to the table you can do that all day in your meetings and making sure that you are creating 0.99

00:26:12.040 these micro and macro opportunities for women that's how we're going to change things 0.94

00:26:15.760 i think that for me the macro ones are huge but the micro ones often seem to matter even more

00:26:27.300 it's just the little things that i was talking to you know dr kimberly mcglon about this last week

00:26:33.460 we can all be common everyday heroes and and i love the way that she put that it's like it's

00:26:40.440 the little things that they do matter. And when the world feels hard and weird, focusing on those

00:26:47.020 little things, I think can be really empowering. Absolutely. I mean, you don't need to wait till

00:26:53.140 you're the CEO to make a difference in the people around you. And, you know, if you get that first

00:27:00.100 termotion, let's say that rung was a little broken for you, but you got it in year six instead of

00:27:05.600 you're for. Take that power and put it forward. These micro actions, these nudges, they do matter

00:27:12.580 and they're so memorable for the people you help. I want to talk a little bit about motherhood

00:27:20.000 because becoming a mom often feels like an off-ramp for a lot of women when it comes to their

00:27:28.340 careers. We talk a lot on the show about how it does not have to be, but how the system is not

00:27:35.240 set up for us. And so we really have to persevere within a broken system in order to succeed both

00:27:42.160 professionally and as mothers who want to be professionals. How do you think that motherhood

00:27:47.880 can actually be an escalator in your career? It's really hard being a mom and working and

00:28:01.380 juggling of multiple loads. So I think even before we make it an escalator, I think it helps women to 0.66

00:28:08.120 know how things change and to have a little bit of an understanding of what's around the corner. 1.00

00:28:15.360 So the first thing is just to make it more transparent. That I think is the first piece

00:28:21.420 of it. And to put a little data, because I do love the data snack, Claudia Golden has amazing

00:28:27.980 research on mothers. And one of the things that, you know, she's an incredible economist. And one 1.00

00:28:33.880 of the things that she found is that women mothers are rated 10% less competent than other women with

00:28:40.560 the same skills. And they are 8.2 times less likely to be recommended for promotion. And I

00:28:48.380 don't say that to make people feel depressed. I say that because if you know that, then you know

00:28:55.300 what you're walking into. And so you're not blindsided. And then you're actually trying to

00:29:00.980 utilize the other tactics, a bigger network, preparing for some of these things, knowing that

00:29:07.160 some of those biases exist. I think you have to know that. We also know that mothers, when they

00:29:14.420 go back to work, are more likely to also have the majority of the work at the house. And so if you're 0.55

00:29:20.320 going to be juggling, you've got to kind of figure out that operating model. One of the really

00:29:25.020 simple things. And this may not sound super impressive, but it will be a huge test of your

00:29:30.420 executive and organizational skills. And you will have to multitask at a higher rate super fast.

00:29:37.180 And that's not to say you can't do it. But you know what? That's a great example of a soft skill

00:29:42.400 that becomes incredibly important when you're up for that high stakes SDP promotion is the ability

00:29:47.220 to do multiple things excellently. So instead of thinking of it as like a curse or something that

00:29:53.180 hurt store that sort of is taking you down, think of it as an early opportunity to gain

00:29:58.220 a sale you're going to need later anyway. 1.00

00:30:02.060 What do you think about moms who have taken a career pause putting motherhood on their 1.00

00:30:08.780 LinkedIn resumes as the reason for that pause instead of just having a gap?

00:30:16.060 I think it's amazing that they are proud and clear about how they have spent their time.

00:30:23.180 I also do think they will be walking into some situations where there's a bias against that.

00:30:29.540 And so, in our sense, confront the bias head on.

00:30:32.940 Be ready for your explanation.

00:30:35.860 Also, be ready to promote the core skills that you have that make you a great candidate for that job.

00:30:43.640 So just be ready that some people will embrace that and say, thank you.

00:30:50.260 That's awesome.

00:30:51.280 I know where you're coming from.

00:30:52.200 and others, you'll just need a little bit more evidence on the skills and the capabilities you

00:30:58.080 bring and why you're the best person for that job. Great advice. Great advice. I love it. Tell

00:31:05.500 everyone where they can find this book and where they can find out more about you and all of the

00:31:10.760 ways that you're promoting it. The book is on Amazon, so you can go and look us up, Broken Rung.

00:31:18.260 We also have a whole section and videos and content on McKinsey.com, which is where I

00:31:24.720 work and with my co-authors.

00:31:27.300 Just on that motherhood point, we're three senior partners.

00:31:31.500 Across the three of us, we each have three kids.

00:31:33.520 So that's nine kids.

00:31:34.680 That's nine kids.

00:31:35.940 You know what?

00:31:36.460 I should have asked you that going into this because we were talking a little bit before

00:31:41.940 the interview started. 0.98

00:31:42.740 And I was saying that I did a book event last night and a bunch of young women came up to me.

00:31:49.540 And this happens at almost all of my book events.

00:31:52.160 And they said, you know, I want to be where you are when I'm in my 40s.

00:31:56.720 I want the kids.

00:31:57.700 I want the marriage.

00:31:59.140 And I want the career success.

00:32:01.400 And, you know, I don't, can we have it all?

00:32:03.900 I always tell them, I'm like, you can have it all, maybe not all at once.

00:32:06.160 Um, but I think we need to show young women many more models of professional women who

00:32:13.000 are thriving in their careers, who are also happy.

00:32:16.040 Well, I agree with all of that.

00:32:19.340 And what I would say is when I started my career, I of course wanted it all, but I had

00:32:24.840 no idea how that would take its form.

00:32:28.560 And so, first of all, I would just say, go step by step, but, you know, create your own

00:32:33.420 destiny.

00:32:34.060 I have three kids.

00:32:35.140 I had one every decade. So I had one in my 20s, 30s, and then right when I turned 40.

00:32:40.500 So I feel so...

00:32:42.620 That is some real space.

00:32:43.900 That is some real space. That's why I mention it.

00:32:46.220 I mention it to women because I think any time is a good time to have kids.

00:32:51.360 I am so proud of being a mom, and I feel so fortunate to have the family that I do.

00:32:59.520 And I also love my work. And so is that a bit of luck?

00:33:03.780 is that a bit of muscle to lean into that luck? It's all of the above. But I think the pursuit of

00:33:12.960 joy is really something. And I hope that when women, if they take the book, what I hope it is,

00:33:20.540 is something that you can refer back to and get something specific, a nudge that helps your

00:33:25.660 career, maybe not all at once, but at different points in time. And it's everything I would have

00:33:31.260 love to have read when I graduated from college and when I started in the workforce.

00:33:37.500 Yeah, no, I agree. And I think, you know, being told that we can focus on the joy

00:33:42.800 is really great, too, because for a long time, a lot of the messaging was focus only on the career

00:33:50.400 or focus only on motherhood. And I think we can focus on both and also focus on ourselves and

00:33:55.580 focus on the joy and the happiness uh because we deserve all of those things we absolutely do and

00:34:02.900 that's all we have for today thank you for being here you're amazing and i love love love all of

00:34:08.280 you if you love me and the show leave us a review in all of the review places and share it with a

00:34:13.420 friend it truly helps it really does i wouldn't ask because it's embarrassing to ask it is don't

00:34:18.840 forget to subscribe to our sub stack over the influence and most importantly go to something

00:34:24.100 this for yourself. You deserve it.

00:34:54.100 You matched on Hinge.

00:35:19.000 You're vibing.

00:35:20.160 Then her energy completely changes.

00:35:22.420 What do you do?

00:35:24.100 I'm Raven Smith, and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact sitch.

00:35:29.140 Listen to the free audiobook now.

00:35:54.100 Thank you.

00:36:24.100 Thank you.

00:36:54.100 Thank you.

00:37:24.100 Thank you.

00:37:54.100 Thank you.

00:38:24.100 Thank you.

00:38:54.100 Thank you.

00:39:24.100 Thank you.

00:39:54.100 You

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - April 02, 2025

What's Worse Than The Glass Ceiling？ The Broken Rung!

Episode Stats

Transcript