00:05:10.680And I think it was really interesting to me because it's terrible for your family to be in the news for something as horrific as what happened to his kids.
00:05:21.960And he said nobody wants the tragedies of their lives to be used as the justification for making social change.
00:05:27.760But he went on to say that this feels a little bit like a work of redemption and a silver lining around these tragedies that have befallen his family.
00:05:37.140So I think from from his perspective, it's like, well, this terrible thing happened, but maybe there's something that can come out of it.
00:05:45.220Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that is one silver lining to this terrible, terrible situation.
00:05:51.460to be honest. What kinds of regulations could Utah possibly put in place?
00:05:59.480So the main thing that they're eyeing is the same thing that's been passed in Illinois,
00:06:04.260Minnesota, and California, which would be something addressing the compensation factor.
00:06:09.100So that would basically dictate that a certain percentage of the earnings from monetized content
00:06:13.160featuring a child's likeness must be put into a trust that they can access when they turn 18.
00:06:18.240So that's the big thing. But there's also I talked to state representative Doug Owens, who told me what he's hoping to get into this legislation.
00:06:26.900And he is hoping that there might be like privacy constraints or that there's something that when the child reaches the age of 18, they can request that certain content be removed.
00:06:37.740But we haven't seen that be passed in any other states. So that's definitely more of like an uphill climb.
00:06:43.340But I think the compensation is the number one part.
00:06:46.480Yeah. And I've talked to some people who say things like, why are they paying attention to the money? That's not enough. We need to regulate the actual content. And I actually think that paying attention to the money is incredibly smart because, you know, how we legislate what happens with money really does dictate people's behavior.
00:07:10.200We live in a very intensely capitalist society. And so just by putting those initial monetary guardrails in place, I think it leads to different choices by these influencers. It just it just kind of makes them stop and think about it a little bit more, a little bit more mindfully.
00:07:30.620it is a good first start. It is also the easier first start because it doesn't mean that they
00:07:36.200have to deal directly with these social media companies who, frankly, have so many lobbyists
00:07:44.800throwing so much money at different politicians that it's kind of impossible to infiltrate them
00:07:50.260these days. Yeah, that's like it's kind of interesting because I talk to advocates in
00:07:55.280this reporting and they're like, we need the social media companies on board. And I'm like,
00:07:59.000Dude, like, in my mind, there's basically a point one percent chance that that would ever happen because technically nothing is impossible.
00:08:07.180But like, for what reason would they get involved?
00:08:09.660Like, they're making money like kid content does really well.
00:08:13.200Like, for what reason would they like step up and say, like, no, actually, we don't want this billions of dollars.
00:11:52.580And they should be compensated in a way that protects their future, too.
00:11:56.740Because I think that putting children into your content when your content is making money for you, it, you know, it does something to their future.
00:12:08.540And even Kevin Franke said this when you interviewed him.
00:12:11.820He said, it's extremely hard for a child influencer to merge back into normal life after they've been a child influencer.
00:12:20.220They begin to see the world differently.
00:12:21.860It's very hard for them to come back from that.
00:12:24.280His kids are a very particular example.
00:12:26.800But I will say, you know, when your entire life has been filmed and put online, it is not dissimilar to child actors and child celebrities.
00:12:37.860and there was an entire genre of television show from the 90s and 2000s talking about how
00:12:45.320messed up those child celebrities were. Right. Right. And I actually think in a way it's I don't
00:12:51.460know if I would say it's more difficult, but it's it's definitely different than being a child actor
00:12:55.600in the way that at least like a child actor is famous for the character that they're playing.
00:13:01.500Like, I don't know. I think about like Macaulay Culkin was famous for being in Home Alone. You
00:13:06.640know what I mean? Like when he was a kid, we weren't like thinking about him as a person as
00:13:12.260much as like his character. But like these kids, like they are their character. There's not that
00:13:17.540like boundary. Their character is their life. You talked to Shannon Bird, a Utah-based mom
00:13:24.260influencer who is supporting this legislation. And I was just struck by her explanation of how
00:13:32.980much work these kids are doing she said these kids are full-on memorizing scripts for youtube
00:13:38.780and i see parents buying ginormous mansions off the backs of the kids who are doing a hundred
00:13:45.740percent of the work right right and that quote is really intense i know and it's interesting
00:13:54.280because sometimes you wonder like okay is this like is everyone like fear about family vlogging
00:14:01.380Like, is that actually what's happening behind the scenes? And then you talk to someone like Shannon Bird who, like, has been in those circles, and she's like, no, yeah, that's what's happening. That's what's happening. I mean, we also know that Sherry Frankie, the eldest Frankie child, has a book coming out in January called The House of My Mother.
00:14:22.520and you know she she has this quote I don't come today as the daughter of a felon nor a victim of
00:14:29.780an abnormally abusive mother I come today as a victim of family vlogging I mean and then she
00:14:39.660goes on to say there is no such thing as a moral or ethical family vlogger I know it's it's quite
00:14:46.880stark to like hear her put it like that and i mean who has more experience than her like very few
00:14:53.820people and just to hear her say that in such a definitive manner you know oh my gosh i know i
00:14:59.560mean her book is definitely going to be a bestseller i'm in full support of it we're going
00:15:02.680to have to have her on the podcast obviously uh because yeah she she went on to explain some of
00:15:09.140the work involved she said that her and her siblings were sometimes rewarded with a hundred
00:15:13.460dollars if they filmed a particularly embarrassing moment i know i know i mean yeah yeah um and one
00:15:24.800of those she said the time i was violently ill and got the leading role in the video that day
00:15:30.060the camera never stops and there's no such thing as a break from filming right yeah i mean it's
00:15:38.540just it's very intense to hear and I mean between Kevin and Sherry and hearing their experiences and
00:15:47.020like the the guilt and frustration that Kevin feels with himself and the violation that Sherry
00:15:53.180feels that she experienced I mean I do think that we have to listen to people who are in this
00:15:58.340in this in this experience and that's not to say that every single family vlogging kid will feel
00:16:04.420the same way that Sherry feels like. I want to make that very clear. I think there I mean,
00:16:08.700I know that there are family vlog kids who are like, I love you, too. I'm going to be an
00:16:12.640influencer in the future. And that's like also totally valid. But I do think we have to listen
00:16:17.820when people are telling us what their experiences were. I completely agree. I completely agree. I
00:16:23.560mean, we're not going to get rid of the world of family vlogging. I also don't think that we should.
00:16:27.980I think that, you know, having family vlogging has opened up a lot of dialogues about different
00:16:34.620kinds of families, about the labor that mothers do. There are good aspects of this, but like
00:16:41.600everything, like everything, there are bad things too. And when money gets involved, people get
00:16:48.500greedy. Yeah. Yeah. And especially this much money. I mean, it's just mind blowing like how much money
00:16:54.400some of these families have made and are making like we're talking like millions of dollars a
00:16:58.980year we're talking millions of dollars um and you know it is hard always hard to pinpoint
00:17:05.660an exact number but what are some of the ranges that you hear people get paid from a single brand
00:17:13.060or for a single video i mean some of these family vloggers like the the higher strata ones are
00:17:20.480getting paid six figures for a single sponsored post yeah yeah which which is absolutely bananas
00:17:28.380i just remembered actually i'm gonna have to send you um my new trad wife thriller everyone is lying
00:17:34.440to you which is finished i mean i think i need to send it to you for fact checking i'm gonna get it
00:17:38.580to you like as soon as we get off the call uh because that is the number that i used because
00:17:44.060i mean yes i just there's things there's things that you should check in it and there's things
00:17:48.080that you'll be like wow that's completely bananas because my mantra while writing this book was
00:17:52.620make it more bananas yeah i mean that's the way to write a book i think that's the way to write
00:17:58.140this book that is the way to write this book i also want to say that like this is not necessarily
00:18:03.720anything new under the sun okay like since the beginning of reality television we've seen shows
00:18:09.600like this like the doggers octomom john and kate plus eight and i was at the trashy celebrity
00:18:17.300magazines covering the Goslins and covering covering their split and all the nastiness. I
00:18:23.600mean, there was nothing good then either. Right. And I think what really blows my mind about this
00:18:30.440is that there's like still no protections for reality TV kids. And now we have this kind of
00:18:37.540new era of reality TV kids that are influencers and there's very few protections for them. And
00:18:43.160It's just like, I don't know, it kind of bums you out how slow the law is to, like, catch up with the culture.
00:18:49.720How slow the law is to catch up with the culture.
00:18:51.500Have you read the comments on your story yet?
00:18:53.560Because I read the comments on your story.
00:19:13.160first off, people aren't going to stop. So there's that. But also YouTube, Instagram, TikTok,
00:19:20.520the algorithm pushes these kinds of videos. Okay. So people are rewarded for posting pictures and
00:19:30.020videos of their children. They're rewarded for having another baby. There's really nothing more
00:19:35.520lucrative to a mom influencer than getting pregnant and having another baby. Yet another0.99
00:19:41.420plot line that i wrote into everyone is lying to you um i've created a whole ai baby in this oh my
00:19:47.560god i'm obsessed ai baby just yeah get ready for that people get ready for that um so i mean it
00:19:55.540really is the whole tech technological industrial complex that that pushes all of this right yeah
00:20:03.020totally i mean i think when i've been researching for my book i'm writing a book about family
00:20:08.640vloggers and child influencers and the whole thing and i've talked to mom bloggers and they've told
00:20:14.820me like not like what what you said nothing does better than pregnancy content nothing does better
00:20:20.200than newborn content but it's funny because like around one one and a half that seems like when
00:20:25.640people are like okay i'm over this kid and it's just like i don't i don't know it's it's just
00:20:32.740crazy and you know that this is what does best content wise and then you kind of wonder like
00:20:39.280why do so many family vlogging kids have so many family have so many kids you know because it's
00:20:45.420because it's very lucrative it's very lucrative to be honest that that is indeed why so i want to
00:20:53.440take one more quick break and when we get back i want to talk about where do we go from here how
00:20:57.040do these how how are these laws actually going to get passed is there a real chance and what is the
00:21:02.240landscape look like now? Sure. Okay, we're back. So Utah is eyeing this legislation. They're like
00:21:17.340dipping their toe in the water. Yeah. What states actually have protections for the kids of
00:21:25.440influencers. Yeah. So Illinois was first and then Minnesota was second. And just last month,
00:21:33.080California became third, which is a big deal because obviously there are quite a few influencers
00:21:38.580in California as well. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. California is a huge deal. I mean,
00:21:42.780also because, you know, it is the center of the entertainment universe. Right. And what do those
00:21:52.280laws look like what do they actually do yeah so they are focused on the monetary protection so
00:21:59.740each of them have like a slightly different percentage but it's basically saying if your
00:22:04.100kid is in this percentage of your content that's monetized then they are owed this many cents on
00:22:10.640the dollar for each dollar that you make so it's they're all kind of modeled after california's
00:22:15.740landmark coogan law which is the law to protect the um the money and profits of child actors
00:22:21.700So that's kind of the starting point. So that's kind of where Utah is is headed or they're trying to be headed. But there's like six or seven other states that are additionally like considering legislation like this.
00:22:35.980And at first, I think Illinois passing the first law was huge because like someone has to break the boundary and they did it.
00:22:44.700And then Minnesota followed. And then for California to do it, like you said, as like the center of the entertainment industry, like that's a huge deal.
00:22:52.120So I do think there's a sense of momentum here.
00:22:57.940And I think that more and more people are paying attention to this now, mostly, too, because even though your commenter was like, stop watching the videos, people aren't going to stop watching them.
00:23:09.060And so I think these laws also make people feel better about watching them.
00:23:12.000They're like, well, those kids are being paid.
00:23:23.160But do you think that this will dampen influencing content in any of these states? Do you think people, I mean, much like we could possibly move if we don't agree with abortion laws in a particular state, will people and influencers move out of these states if they have to conform to strict legislation?
00:23:43.300you know that's that's like comments that i've seen everywhere about these stories is like oh
00:23:49.580you're about to see an exodus from utah and from california and like i don't know i guess it's
00:23:54.220possible i think it's unlikely um i think that they will also see that there's a sense of momentum
00:24:01.680here and you can't just kind of like keep moving states like as as last year i mean i guess you
00:24:07.060could. But I doubt it. I doubt it. But I mean, I'm I'm going to stay tuned. We'll stay tuned.
00:24:13.900I mean, to be honest, the number of people who actually move based off legislation is quite
00:24:19.960small, even intensely restrictive legislation, except for tax laws, to be honest, except for
00:24:27.760tax laws. That's why everyone goes to Texas. That's why everyone goes to Texas. I would love
00:24:32.440get to Texas, to be honest. I am so happy that you got this story out there. What are you working
00:24:40.600on next? Like, what else are you pursuing right now? Oh, my gosh. Just like every angle that you
00:24:46.360could think of related to this. And if anyone wants to tell me anything or start a conversation,
00:24:52.680you can find me online anywhere at Hi Fortessa, H-I-F-O-R-T-E-S-A. And I want to talk to you.
00:25:00.140yes seriously seriously reach out um where are you at with your book process oh my gosh i am
00:25:07.980almost i'm six weeks away from the deadline of the draft so okay okay i'm i'm fully in it
00:25:16.120you're fully in it you are fully in it okay well you know what just get the first draft done that's
00:25:22.420all you have to do right now nothing else just just you know get it on paper and then you can
00:25:27.280fix it later. Yes, that is the plan. So I have the word counts every day. I'm sitting down. I'm
00:25:32.800just, you know, yeah, we're doing our best. We can all only do our best. What is your word count
00:25:38.600every day? Right now, just based on what I need to get to the end, it's like around 1200, which
00:25:45.460is like totally doable. 1200 is very doable. When I was doing Everyone is Lying to You, I was doing
00:25:53.220a hot 2400 a day oh my god which is ass kicking it's really ass kicking but it's because i wanted
00:26:01.280the book to come out so fast and it's coming out july 1 uh and i wrote it in august so it you are0.91
00:26:07.240a machine i'm a machine there's something wrong with me but i um yeah just there's something
00:26:13.360wrong with my brain but yeah 2400 really and right now i'm doing a thousand i'm like this is nothing
00:26:17.780yeah actually this is like a walk in the park it's really it's like a legit a walk in the park
00:26:22.600um and i always tell people i'm like it doesn't matter if the words are good they're on the page
00:26:27.220perfect as the enemy have done totally that that is my motto right now i have one last question
00:26:34.120for you kevin franke and i know there's a lot you can't tell us but what is he doing now is he with
00:26:40.860his children you know i'm not entirely sure um he has a relationship with at least some of them
00:26:51.340i'm not sure like legally where the younger children who were like caught up in the child
00:26:57.480abuse case like where they stand um it's just it's just a terrible story it's a terrible story
00:27:04.640it's a terrible story um like i said i'm happy that sherry is speaking out about it uh mostly
00:27:12.540because she really just deserves to have her voice heard more than anything else yeah
00:27:18.700this was so great keep me posted i want you on every time that you break some news
00:27:24.080thank you and good luck with the deadline and good luck with the baby thank you we'll talk soon
00:27:29.380bye bye and that is all we have for today thanks so much for being here if you love this show
00:27:36.040share it with a friend we have so many more fascinating breaking news stories coming up
00:27:41.160as well as new deep dives into different breeds of influencers i'm very psyched to get into the
00:27:47.580disney influencers it's an influencer space i've been dying to get into for a while now
00:27:53.400and now we're doing it now we're doing it we're going to the happiest place on earth
00:27:58.480go have a great day do something nice for yourself you deserve it