00:01:00.000Today, I'm talking to the absolutely wonderful and magnetic Isaac Fitzgerald about his new book,
00:01:05.200American Rambler. On its face, it's a story about chasing the legend of Johnny Appleseed
00:01:10.820across the country. Isaac does discover that he was much less about apple pie and more about hard
00:01:17.400cider, which makes me like Johnny a lot more. But really, this is a book about finding yourself in
00:01:22.920midlife, about finding a home, about loneliness, and about the fact that adventure doesn't end
00:01:29.500in your 20s. In fact, it might just be the beginning. We're also chatting about all the
00:01:34.760surprises that happen when you get out of your little bubble and actually start talking to people
00:01:38.740again. Strangers, in bars, on the road, at rest stops. These serendipitous meetings that I don't
00:01:45.600think we have enough of anymore. Isaac is a delight. American Rambler is one of my top picks
00:01:51.100for this spring. It is going to make an amazing Father's Day gift for any of the dads in your life.
00:01:56.040American Rambler is truly about what happens when you stop running from your past, your childhood, and yourself, and just start paying attention to the wonderful life that you're actually living right now.
00:02:08.380Isaac Fitzgerald when I realized that you are wearing a glorious hat I had to get up and move
00:02:22.440as fast as I could and come I had to bring it I had to bring it for this interview okay it was so
00:02:27.220fast I want to know how close that hat was to you that you were able to get it at such such a
00:02:33.960monumental speed. There is a reason that I have a cowboy hat on on hand right now. I am currently
00:02:39.680finishing up I mean as luck would have it a dude ranch murder for hire mystery. Wonderful. So
00:02:47.180sometimes when I'm a little stuck I put on the hat and it's like my murder hat and it helps me
00:02:53.520get into character. Okay I love that very very much. I also to be honest I think I wear hats
00:02:59.640like this when i am feeling stuck i just feel stuck for long periods of time the hat looks
00:03:04.320fantastic thank you so much for having me joe oh my god i i mean i i love every chance to talk to
00:03:10.400you uh and especially about this book we've got it here american rambler i i adore this book i
00:03:17.820actually i'm gonna i'm gonna venture i'm gonna be crazy right now i think i like it better than
00:03:22.020dirtbag massachusetts oh you know that that's all i ever want to hear joe that's so kind you know
00:03:28.020as an author as a writer yourself you're only as funky as your last cut so that is really really0.73
00:03:33.320lovely true that you really enjoyed and you were such a big supporter of dirtbag this feels like
00:03:39.860a different book like dirtbag to me feels like the book that you you had to write first right
00:03:46.020you had it you had to get it all out there and this just feels so much more seasoned but also
00:03:52.780more like you more like the you that i know in person now as opposed to the person looking back
00:04:00.380and one of the things i want to say is you open this book by saying that you've been drinking less
00:04:05.720though not not stopping drinking altogether to be clear and as someone who has has drank with
00:04:13.720you on a number of occasions that that brings me joy because it is something that i enjoy doing
00:04:18.000and that you've been praying more you're a different person going into this book
00:04:23.220than dirtbag tell me a little bit about that so uh somebody described the book to me recently
00:04:30.080as a coming of middle age story which i thought was such a fantastic statement um because yes
00:04:38.220dirtbag massachusetts is very much a coming of age story and it's the story of my childhood and
00:04:44.080these are two very standalone books. You do not have to read one to appreciate the other. That
00:04:48.800said, of course, if you've read Dirtbag, you get this kind of younger version of me. And then yes,
00:04:54.060the hope. It's so wonderful to hear you say that, Joe, because the hope is that in American Rambler,
00:04:58.240you can see this new, more mature version of myself starting to form as I start to explore
00:05:06.560where I am now in my life. And so yeah, it opens with me saying I've been drinking a bit less
00:05:11.500and praying a lot more than I used to.
00:05:58.280And she said, well, that's not a real guy.
00:06:00.160And I was like, no, see, Paul Bunyan, not a real guy.
00:06:02.300But Johnny Appleseed was a real guy named John Chapman.
00:06:04.680And that's where kind of the idea for this book, which is like Johnny Appleseed's the scaffolding that I wanted to kind of hang my story on.
00:06:12.840I love that. And you and I do share, in addition to sharing our love of drinking and talking, we also share a love.
00:09:21.280But if you tell them stories and that's what he would do, he'd be like, oh, if we get to that peak or if we get at this this curve in the road, I'll tell you more of the story.
00:09:29.160And of course, as I got older, I realized he was pulling these stories from American legends, not to mention like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings.
00:09:35.200Like I would as I learn more about culture, I would be like, wait, this story sounds familiar.
00:09:41.060She was a lot more grounded in reality.
00:09:42.580But both of them, you know, when you're young and you know somebody, quote unquote, famous, someone from history, grew up right down the road from you, you start to become a little fascinated by them and infatuated with them.
00:09:54.960And so that's that's where, like, it started.
00:09:57.560But what really clicked it for me, and I think you're really going to love this, is we are raised with this very Disney-fied version of Johnny Appleseed.
00:11:04.660A TV show called American Rambler where it's you walking and talking and popping into these bars all over America because what I truly believe is that also it is time for us to get out of our screen-induced bubbles, right?
00:11:22.320And you go out and you talk to people and you're walking and you're going to bars and you're living in the real world again, which I think so many of us are hungry to be doing right now.
00:11:33.580So that's the TV show that I want for America.
00:13:25.980we are back so as you're walking what surprised you so i i mean listen there were so many different
00:13:35.940things one great moment in the book is i go looking for this supposed legend unto itself
00:13:42.600apple tree that is supposedly the last apple tree that john chapman planted that can be proven right
00:13:50.200there's there's definitely other people who kind of claim that maybe some of these trees here or
00:13:54.760And then where he went for the record was Western Massachusetts, Western Pennsylvania into Ohio on into Indiana. So that's kind of the land that I covered. And there's there's rumors of trees here and there. But there's this one family in this one farm who was like they have the paperwork like they can trace it back. He was known in the area. There was a preacher. He had this very specific faith, which was called Swedenborgianism. And there was a Swedenborg preacher in the area that he would come kind of almost seasonally.
00:14:22.900He would often walk around in these big circles checking in on his orchards because that's
00:20:01.380And it was very, very lovely what he said about it.
00:20:04.060He called it charming, which was, of course, well, you are you're you're you're irresistibly charming.
00:20:09.200That was a delight. But he also he had like and I want to say this.
00:20:12.600I know he meant it in the most loving way possible.
00:20:14.740But it was this light little roast that was basically like Isaac Fitzgerald is I'm not quoting it perfectly,
00:20:21.360but it's something along the lines of Isaac Fitzgerald is the guy that 17 year old you wanted to be.
00:20:26.020Or maybe it was the wandering guy that's because that's it is this it is this coming of middle age book.
00:20:30.700But what it looks like for me is recognizing that all this bouncing around, all this being a leaf on the wind, all of this getting out into the world as much as it fills my heart and fills my cup, it is also becoming time for me to recognize a desire for home.
00:20:48.160And that was a really big thing for me to admit to myself.
00:20:51.400Again, when you look at it on paper, you're like, of course it all makes sense.
00:20:55.240But it took me a long time to figure this stuff out.
00:22:15.600But by that point in the book, you can kind of feel the wear and tear.
00:22:19.720And it is me grappling with the fact that as much as I love being out in the world, John Chapman, like I said, never has a home address.
00:22:27.700He dies in his 70s. Walking's great for your health.
00:22:31.040He lived a long, full life, but he dies on not strangers, but not friends, acquaintances, floors, a floor that is very much not his own out in Fort Wayne, Indiana.
00:22:43.360and kind of come into this recollection that I need to find a safer harbor
00:22:49.400if I want to avoid that same outcome in my life.
00:22:52.720And that's been my big journey into middle age
00:22:56.480is admitting that I desire a home and that I think I deserve it.
00:23:00.800And did you not feel like you were deserving of one for a long time?
00:23:04.420I think I found ways not to look directly at it.
00:23:15.140And part of that would always come through some kind of communal living or every place that I've ever lived was always a sublet or handshake agreement or a friend.
00:23:25.320Part of this is just I'm very bad at paperwork.
00:23:28.020And I do because I have people that care for me.
00:25:12.600I was on the road every week for two years when I was a travel editor at Yahoo and I freaking loved it. Right. I was like, I am I'm an adventurer. Right. Like this is this is who I am. And while I loved all of that, I would never trade any of that.
00:25:29.140But I have to tell you that this adventure that I'm on in midlife, I really, I love it so much. It is an adventure. I don't think it would be defined as an adventure. And I think maybe it's because of who has been defining what it means to adventure for a long time.
00:25:48.540i mean broaden that even more like let's just call it what it is oftentimes uh there's a gender bias
00:25:55.140into what counts as the adventure or not a hundred percent and then also yeah what what
00:26:00.120qualifies as an adventure well if it's building a life that is not seen nearly as epic as you know
00:26:07.880climbing mount kilimanjaro and therefore you have these two different things but as we all know
00:26:12.600there's a lot of dedication that goes into building a life there's a lot of preparation
00:26:17.420and focus and bravery in the ways that maybe we don't totally qualify it that way.
00:26:45.940Like, I'm saying this as someone who went scuba diving with sharks in the Maldives.
00:26:52.060Like, I'm a person who's had all of these madcap crazy adventures.
00:26:56.580And I will tell you, I think that it is also an adventure to build a life, not just with a person, not just with a family, but a community of friends.
00:27:07.860And, you know, to really, I guess you could call it a quiet adventure, but I still think it's an even more interesting adventure.
00:27:15.940than this i'm gonna get up this mountain now right like what counts as adventure like i think this
00:27:22.560part of life this middle age is such a wild crazy adventure and it has been categorized as soft for
00:27:29.760way too long and and i'm sorry life is gonna throw you so many you don't need to be on an on a on a
00:27:36.100mountain to get a curveball no you all know that life will throw us and and the the actually
00:27:41.280important things. Again, the things that are difficult to face. You know, I've lost a parent
00:27:47.740recently, which is in the book. I lost a friend's mother who was very much almost a second mother
00:27:54.460to me. She's also mentioned in the book, but since post-writing it, she has also passed away.
00:28:00.100You know, there's this loss that comes as part of this. And sure, you can be, like you said,
00:28:05.260climbing a mountain or swimming with a shark, and there's an immediate issue, right? There's an
00:28:09.160immediate issue oh we got to get the tent set up before the storm comes this that there's an
00:28:13.840immediate issue and in a way that kind of big seemingly very scary moment actually you have
00:28:21.140more control over because you you put yourself in this position you know what to do you've put
00:28:26.040yourself you're prepared usually there is there is sometimes i wasn't as prepared as i could right
00:28:31.580yes you know you know how to grapple with it whereas the bigger exist more existential issues
00:28:37.580that life will throw to you, especially when you give yourself time to slow down and be accepting
00:28:42.400or to think about the ways, like we said, whether how childhood affected you or what you're processing
00:28:47.980right now, what you're going through right now. Those can be because those are actually bigger
00:28:52.800life affecting, especially over a longer timeline situations than, oh my gosh, there's a coyote in
00:28:59.380front of me. What do I do? Right now? Don't get me wrong. If that goes well, then all right. If
00:29:03.060If that goes poorly, I mean, then maybe there's some tough life stuff ahead.
00:29:11.220But the adventure that is allowing yourself to live a real life, and I think that's what you and I are talking about here, and also the balance.
00:29:21.480So I now live with my now wife, who I adore.
00:36:02.360I often use a bookstore as like an end point, right?
00:36:04.740I'm like, I'm eventually going to make it to a bookstore or a bar.
00:36:07.920But it's the ramble that ends up being the most rewarding.
00:36:10.240I'm like, oh, my gosh, look at this crazy old typewriter store.
00:36:14.380And then I go in and start talking to this guy who has been fixing typewriters for 60 years.
00:36:19.340Right. Like just allowing ourselves that serendipity, which you so clearly had on this trip, even though you had a path you had you had a general path that you were taking.
00:36:30.000But the serendipity was there. And I think that is just like that was that was my favorite part of this book.
00:36:35.300No. And the serendipity is there because because, like you just said, it's all out there.
00:36:39.700It's a wonderful world. And I do think in these little ways, we've just given up so many parts of our lives in the name of convenience that have been provided by the internet and then provided by our phones. And again, I want to be very clear. I did not leave my phone at home. It still had my ability to take photos, my ability to voice record people, my ability to, if I was really lost, look at a map. And I'm grateful for those things. So don't get me wrong as tools, they can be used very, very well, but you have to manage the way you use these tools.
00:37:08.680And something I am very, very guilty of, and I think this is a generational thing as well, which is all of a sudden always looking for the best.
00:37:19.640And all of a sudden, you're maybe missing out on the place that, okay, maybe it's not the five-star sandwich in the entire small city that you're in.
00:37:30.600But there's all these other wonderful things to kind of get out there and explore.
00:37:35.060And to hear your reaction to the book, Joe, it makes me so happy that you connected with it so much because that is, I really did, I was talking about this earlier, right, with the loneliness, but just in general, I wanted the book to have that same feeling of exploration and discovery that you're talking about when you mention walking into some guy who fixes typewriters for 60 years.
00:37:56.320because at first that's it listen the first steps of a walk are always a little bit like okay how
00:38:00.920long am I going to do this for you know like I almost open with this like this long stretch I'm
00:38:05.040on I'm on a 35 or 36 mile hike at the very beginning of the book and I wanted it to have that
00:38:11.080what you were talking about before how walking can almost be like prayer I wanted it to have
00:38:15.960that repetition and that solitude but then I really did want it like I was saying before
00:38:20.880to open up while meeting new people but also to like all of a sudden be like what's next that
00:38:25.580same thing my dad used to do oh let's just get past to that that curve in the path and then we're
00:38:31.060gonna find something new and i wanted the reader to kind of be having that experience with me
00:38:35.120whether i'm you know scared about a bear which shout out bill bryson a walk in the woods very
00:38:39.760much also a big that's such a great book oh you want to reread a fun book i mean listen bill
00:38:46.220bryson's a walk in the woods opened up so many different things for me while i was working on
00:38:50.600this book because i reread it and one of the things was he doesn't do the whole appalachian
00:38:54.540trail no he and his buddy quit very early on then he's like driving to different parts of it then
00:38:59.280he's walking sections of it i'm not trying to take if you're listening bill shout out to you
00:39:02.780you did a lot of it and that's i understand but also i think he did it in such a human way too
00:39:07.320i'm like that would be me okay and that's where i felt okay i remember getting to the this end of
00:39:13.440the long walk at the opening of the book and all of a sudden i'm like i am gonna need a call this
00:39:17.700is like i like just the way our country's built at this point to go on a walk this long would
00:39:22.620almost be dangerous and i allowed myself that because i was like well bill bryson did his book
00:39:27.940his book if it reread it a walk in the woods it so holds up it's such a fantastic i'm gonna go
00:39:32.700grab it right after this yeah and genuinely that's how i wanted this book to feel too you're
00:39:37.820on an adventure with me i'm kind of yapping with you um and we're gonna go discover some things
00:39:42.480together yeah yeah and again like i said it is so inspiring to go on this journey with you to
00:39:48.480discover things and then to go and do it on your own. I think everyone is going to love this book
00:39:54.140so much. It's, I mean, it's out very, very soon, but you can order it right now. And I would
00:39:58.900highly encourage everyone to do that. I think this book is wonderful for everyone, but I want to,
00:40:04.580I do, I get a lot of questions about what to get dads for Father's Day and that is coming up. And
00:40:11.240so like, this is number one on my Father's Day list. Get your order in this week. It is a great
00:40:16.800book for your dad for your husband uh i think it's just it's a great reminder that there's so
00:40:23.180much adventure to be had in the second half of our lives and and that we're all especially men
00:40:29.840to be honest i mean we talk a lot on this show about like the male loneliness epidemic like
00:40:33.040we're all hungry for this kind of connection so this is my number one pick american rambler my
00:40:37.820number one pick for father's day uh get your orders in today isaac it is such a treat to be
00:40:42.720here with you um i love this book and i just thank you for wearing a fun hat with me always this was
00:40:49.780absolutely wonderful you're such a wonderful writer and such a wonderful reader and such
00:40:53.720a wonderful friend so thank you so much thank you for being here