Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Raising Good Humans Without God： A Secular Parenting Survival Guide

00:00:00.000 You matched on Hinge. You're vibing. Then her energy completely changes. What do you do?

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00:00:18.380 I'm getting to a really strange point in my parenting journey.

00:00:22.680 My kids are asking a lot of tough questions about what happens when we die.

00:00:27.800 And being a person who is not religious, raising a family that is not religious,

00:00:31.840 these questions are kind of hard to answer.

00:00:33.920 I'm jealous of the people who have a built-in answer for these questions,

00:00:38.320 even if it's not the answer that I agree with.

00:00:41.660 I also find myself increasingly jealous of the built-in community,

00:00:45.520 moral frameworks, and ready-made traditions that religion provides.

00:00:50.380 Today we're talking to a set of parents that we're going to call mom and pops.

00:00:53.760 They don't use their real names because they don't want their family to be attacked online,

00:00:56.720 and I get it. I'm here for that. The two of them have a podcast called The Family Skeptical,

00:01:01.980 which I'll drop an episode of in our feed in the next couple of weeks, where they talk about

00:01:06.080 raising two boys in a secular household. They talk about how critical thinking has replaced

00:01:11.320 catechism and how finding your own moral compass is valued over following ancient texts.

00:01:18.660 Hey, guys. Hello, Joe. Thank you so much for being here. I have to tell you, I have this

00:01:25.860 confession to make. I'm kind of jealous of people online, these influencers I see who are talking

00:01:35.640 about their faith, who are talking about Jesus and their church and their community, because as a

00:01:42.400 person who I truly believe I do not have a God gene, which I think might be a thing, right? I mean,

00:01:48.360 I've read about this. I am not a believer, but I'm jealous of the community and I'm jealous of

00:01:53.780 the moral structure, like the kind of playbook to give your kids. So I'm so happy

00:01:58.440 to talk to you guys today because I'm just trying to figure out as I go along

00:02:03.580 how to raise my kids as agnostics in the world, but still give them all of the parts of religion

00:02:10.740 that I love. Oh, yeah. Join the club. Right. So here's the thing. I feel like I'm not alone.

00:02:20.780 But right now, we are also kind of living in, we're living with a government right now that is pushing very intense Christian values.

00:02:31.420 I don't live in a community that is particularly religious.

00:02:34.320 And yet, and yet, and yet, I feel like it's around me more than it has been in a very long time.

00:02:41.120 That's so interesting.

00:02:41.920 I mean, I think, so we wanted to start talking about parenting without religion.

00:02:50.780 because I have very mixed feelings.

00:02:55.200 Like, one of the great things about being a secular and non-religious person

00:03:00.740 is there's nobody telling you how you have to do it.

00:03:05.020 On the other hand, when there are no rules, I think it's a little bit harder to find,

00:03:10.080 excuse me, when there are no rules, I think it's a little bit harder to find community

00:03:16.360 and know where you fit into it because you have people coming from a lot of different perspectives.

00:03:23.300 But I think it's actually in parenting that a lot of those sort of concerns and issues

00:03:32.800 start aligning again for people.

00:03:37.780 And what do you mean by that?

00:03:39.960 So, I mean, so the interesting thing about being atheist or agnostic or non-religious

00:03:44.340 is, you know, people come at that from a lot of different perspectives.

00:03:50.000 So since there's nobody giving rules to the experience, you know, there are some people

00:03:54.740 who just like, they weren't raised particularly religious.

00:03:58.500 They never were particularly religious.

00:04:00.820 And it has very little to do with their identity.

00:04:03.740 And they don't think about it most of the time.

00:04:05.700 It's just like an absence in their life.

00:04:08.720 There are other people who grew up in high control religions or, you know, with very

00:04:12.820 religious families where the decision to step away was a much more defining was a much more

00:04:19.140 defining experience for them. And so for them, it's kind of a much bigger part of their identity

00:04:25.260 or is at least a much bigger part of their identity while they go through that. But I think

00:04:31.900 once you've stepped away and kind of like you've said, once you've found some framework that

00:04:40.160 you're comfortable basing your life on as far as like morality and decision making goes it can

00:04:45.940 all of that can kind of go into the background for people but then when you have kids like

00:04:51.720 kids ask all these huge questions so you may have sort of fallen into a rhythm in your own life but

00:04:58.980 then you're like I have to teach my kids about death I have to you know I don't just like muddle

00:05:04.500 through my own morality I'm trying to help somebody else figure all this stuff out and I think

00:05:09.740 it starts to bring all of that stuff into focus again yeah and this is this is the crazy part

00:05:16.360 for me right i could i i did not think twice about this when i was a single human just just

00:05:23.540 living my life and i i've talked about this before but you know i was raised catholic in

00:05:29.760 big quotations my dad was was catholic ish um my mom was lutheran we went to church i was raised

00:05:36.760 Lutheran. Yeah, you know, bless them. We went to church sometimes. We didn't belong to a church.

00:05:43.120 We went for holidays sometimes, celebrated the hallmark Christian holidays. And then I went to

00:05:51.020 Catholic school for high school because I was a bad 12-year-old. Ouch. I know. Literally. Just

00:05:57.640 like a juvenile delinquent 12-year-old. And so I had to go to Catholic school, which was a massive

00:06:01.600 shock to my system because there was mass every friday we had to pray for the souls of potentially 0.99

00:06:09.320 aborted babies and name them oh my gosh oh fucked up right like real fucked up did you get to make 0.99

00:06:16.960 the names up i did i named them brenda and kelly from beverly hills 90210 oh my gosh not donna no 0.99

00:06:23.260 donna there was no donna there was no there isn't no donna martin graduate okay clearly and uh yeah

00:06:30.240 I, um, it was a massive shock because it was so in my face.

00:06:36.340 And frankly, I do think that that turned me off a little bit from religion, mostly this

00:06:42.100 massive emphasis on protecting girls' virginity.

00:06:45.880 Oh, yeah. 0.96

00:06:46.980 Yeah, it's kind of gross.

00:06:48.340 So it was, that part was so gross.

00:06:50.460 But then, because I then got very religious curious, I got a master's in religious studies

00:06:56.820 from nyu and wrote a book about catholic nuns badass feminist nuns by the way so i'm very

00:07:05.860 interested in the tenets of religion if i could strip the entire patriarchy away from it well

00:07:11.520 community and religion is so easy because you you basically you join the club and then you don't

00:07:17.400 have to drill down when you're talking to people you just have this sort of top level quality that

00:07:23.180 you all share. And that allows you to do social events together. The problem that we're finding

00:07:28.620 with secularism is that, especially as secular parents, where kids have activities and we want

00:07:33.220 to have social lives, you have to do extra work to find out who in that community actually comports

00:07:41.040 with your worldview. We're talking about moral judgments and worldview and belief systems and

00:07:46.540 everything. Because there is such a variety, we do have more work to do in trying to vet people

00:07:52.540 into our lives. You can't just, like, flip the switch and say, oh, you're an atheist.

00:07:57.460 We all share the same values. It just doesn't work that way.

00:08:01.420 Or not even an atheist, but you're a not particularly practicing Jewish human being,

00:08:08.700 or, you know, you are vaguely Christian. I love how you just framed that, that it's an extra layer.

00:08:16.180 it's an extra layer of parental labor to find your community and not just to find the people

00:08:22.720 but then to find the things to do because i feel like churches used to be throwing stuff all the

00:08:28.860 time oh yeah in my head it's hootenannies that is an underused word isn't it isn't it i'd like

00:08:35.680 to throw a hootenanny um and you know finding that level of connection like where am i gonna go

00:08:41.480 on a Saturday or Sunday that other people I enjoy spending time with are.

00:08:47.260 And I think, you know, for people like us that live in more liberal cities,

00:08:54.080 it's that social side. But I am in a lot of groups with other non-religious parents,

00:09:00.280 and it has a very problematic side in communities where every after-school program is run by a

00:09:07.740 church. Every summer camp is run by a church. And so there's sort of the like, oh, I would really

00:09:14.320 like community. And then for some people in different parts of the country, there is.

00:09:21.540 I mean, I just I don't even know how people do it. It's very challenging, but I think there is

00:09:27.480 extra labor. And one thing that really made me want to talk about it is there are so many people

00:09:32.780 I know who are that kind of like, just not super religious, kind of stepped away

00:09:38.740 from their church because of those issues of patriarchy. I mean, man, that is just there

00:09:43.340 everywhere. It's just in all of them. Okay. It's just literally in all of them, except maybe Wiccan.

00:09:50.940 Yes, for sure. I mean, I, on the podcast, we talked about how I met with Mormon missionaries

00:09:56.960 for a year which was actually a very healing experience it's a real funky story but you know

00:10:04.960 one thing I just never could have converted to that religion because because of the patriarchy

00:10:11.660 like I had really good friends who were involved and these incredibly smart people

00:10:18.360 could not give me an explanation of just how some of that stuff works but

00:10:25.180 but I knew a lot of people who like just weren't their religious had stepped away

00:10:30.460 weren't attending services and then when they had kids just sort of didn't at least my reading was

00:10:38.000 they just didn't have any picture in their head of how to raise kids outside of that context

00:10:44.560 and so despite not feeling particularly connected to their religion or having some issues with it

00:10:51.580 they went back once they had kids, I think, just because they felt like they needed that framework.

00:10:57.540 And I think if you think that's the right thing to do for your family, and like if you have a

00:11:02.560 great pastor, like I don't have any issues with people being religious, but I did want to talk

00:11:08.520 about it just not that I think we have all the answers, but just so people could sort of like

00:11:13.760 see what that looks like to do these things without a religion, because I don't think there

00:11:19.480 are many images of it, particularly if you're surrounded by a lot of families that are more

00:11:25.020 religious. Yeah, I don't think that there's a lot of images of it either, especially in pop culture,

00:11:31.520 right? So, you know, and actually maybe we should define some things too, you know, in terms of

00:11:36.640 what is an atheist? What is an agnostic? What is someone who's non-religious? And you guys

00:11:41.840 consider yourselves atheists, right? Tell us what that means to you. So I think it's really funny

00:11:48.400 because most of the people I know tend to be a little bit more liberal, open-minded.

00:11:56.520 And still, when you say you're an atheist, it just, sometimes it's almost like you've turned

00:12:01.720 a, like, a blow dryer on somebody, like their hair is just blown, Beth. Like you told them

00:12:05.640 you kill puppies. By the way, yeah, I also murder puppies. Yeah. And, you know, people where I 0.98

00:12:12.540 wouldn't think it'd be a big deal, I remember somebody saying, oh, it's just such a strong word. 0.94

00:12:18.400 And I think that's so funny because atheists literally answers one question.

00:12:25.360 Do you believe in God? 1.00

00:12:27.920 And the answer is no.

00:12:29.700 And so there are a lot of different kinds of atheists.

00:12:33.320 Like, technically, I would consider myself an agnostic atheist.

00:12:37.400 Am I certain there is no God?

00:12:39.540 I don't know if we can be certain of that.

00:12:42.880 But do I believe in one?

00:12:44.960 No.

00:12:45.400 so uh yes so this so this is interesting again like i think we get to define things for ourselves

00:12:52.340 i always say agnostic because i feel like i don't know i feel like i don't know if there

00:12:59.760 is a god or not but i do not believe in a deity that has any active participation in our lives

00:13:04.380 but that's my jam i mean it's all just just yeah you know yeah wordplay at this point i'm like i

00:13:11.940 I have, I literally have no idea, but I do not particularly, I don't believe in organized religion and the way that it exists in the world.

00:13:21.800 And yeah, so I play around with the word agnostic, but I could just as easily say I'm an atheist agnostic.

00:13:28.160 Yeah, and I don't think you have, like, there aren't rules, right?

00:13:31.360 Like, I think you should turn, I think you should choose the term that feels the best to you.

00:13:39.060 Totally, right?

00:13:40.040 And I think people get really hung up on words.

00:13:43.940 And, I mean, I got to say, I think words do get trickier when we have the kids, too.

00:13:50.560 Because when this is constant in my house these days, what religion are we?

00:13:56.380 We must be Christian because we celebrate Christmas.

00:13:59.660 And do I say we celebrate Christmas because I like trees?

00:14:03.520 do we celebrate Christmas because I just really like decorating the house or because it's 0.63

00:14:09.840 something that a lot of other people are doing and then when I say no we're not Christian then

00:14:14.860 what are we this is where it gets so confusing I want to take a quick break and when we get back

00:14:20.080 I want to talk a little bit just explore how you think we can talk to kids about these things

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00:15:20.700 Okay, we are back.

00:15:23.180 When it comes to telling kids what religion we are, how have you tackled that?

00:15:29.500 So the way that we've talked about it has been through myth-making.

00:15:35.160 And also through empathy.

00:15:37.840 Both of those things, I think, in parallel.

00:15:40.500 all empathy first because like we already talked about in the last segment our goal on our podcast

00:15:49.660 isn't specifically to denigrate other people's beliefs or to say x y and z religion is bad

00:15:57.000 it's more like what is what's the outcome of the beliefs you purport to hold like and because of

00:16:05.680 that, we can, with our kids, talk about how it's more important to think about how that

00:16:12.440 person views their religious beliefs from their perspective.

00:16:16.000 Like, we have dear friends who are Quakers, and they are such the most wonderful couple,

00:16:25.360 and our boys adore them.

00:16:27.480 And they would never, they know that they're very Christian, but our boys would never,

00:16:33.120 ever consider, you know, talking to them about religion in any sort of like dismissive way or

00:16:38.040 anything like that, because they've seen in our friends' lives how their religious beliefs have

00:16:45.560 led them to much the same humanistic positions as we've arrived at. And so it's like a worldview

00:16:51.340 alignment. But even then, what kind of a world do we want to live in? Do we want to live in a world

00:16:57.080 where we're at each other's throats all the time about things that we don't have to fight about

00:17:01.900 or can we find common ground? And so that's the empathy side. But then we have two big

00:17:08.880 storytelling kids. And so we can talk about how, you know, through the ages humans have

00:17:14.280 invented, you know, our sort of pattern seeking has led us to personify and to give causes where

00:17:22.540 causes don't necessarily exist because we're driven to have answers for big questions that

00:17:28.600 we don't know the answers to or can't even investigate and over time maybe the the pantheons

00:17:35.860 have been winnowed away and now we're down to these one giant like umbrella god terms that can

00:17:41.980 do all the things and do in all the places on all the timelines but until you can show that it's real

00:17:49.560 it's just a belief that you'd hold and so our boys look at it from the myth-making side and

00:17:58.100 they look at it from the empathy side. And so if the person has X, Y, and Z belief and does things

00:18:06.120 that would harm their community, then is that belief worth not pushing back against?

00:18:14.140 Right. I like the leading with empathy and also respect, right? I mean, we're trying very hard to

00:18:22.080 we're trying to instill this respect and also curiosity in our kids to be curious about other

00:18:32.160 people's religions stories and beliefs we were just on spring break with our friends Casey and

00:18:37.820 Stephen and we did a Seder and I actually I love a Seder I gotta say yeah yeah and I love the

00:18:44.980 storytelling aspect of the Seder and the kids were wrapped and also because they are encouraged

00:18:51.260 to ask questions during a syndrome too right so that that is that is part of this that i love i'm

00:18:57.320 like ask all the questions ask people you know how how they came to these beliefs what they what

00:19:04.800 they like about them and i also have big greek mythology kids we do a lot of breaking out

00:19:10.540 on our car rides and so i try to i do try to start there because we go through different stories

00:19:18.060 that different cultures have told themselves for a long time.

00:19:22.280 And I try to give equal weight to all of them.

00:19:25.900 Yeah.

00:19:26.460 Of that I'm like, this is something that people 5,000 years ago believed.

00:19:31.580 This is something people 2,000 years ago believed.

00:19:35.120 And this is something people today believe.

00:19:37.420 And they are all trying to do the same thing.

00:19:41.760 I was going to bring up the Greek myths,

00:19:43.660 Because I think it's easier when you're looking at a religion that doesn't have people sort of actively believing it is the truth with a capital T.

00:19:54.220 You can see how you can look at those stories.

00:19:56.780 And there's still things you can learn from them.

00:19:59.360 They're still exciting and cool.

00:20:01.260 And they don't have to be true, like true with a capital T, to learn things from them or to care about them.

00:20:09.640 and you know it's it's funny with christmas because uh pops's family is like the biggest

00:20:17.040 christmas family i have ever met his dad watched how many christmas movies does your dad watch

00:20:22.440 annually all of them yeah all of them but it's like guys i also i also love christmas movies

00:20:28.100 okay like i love the whole season i love everything about the season all of the secular

00:20:31.680 things about the season absolutely and you know most of them have nothing to do with the religious

00:20:36.940 story. But for me, you know, one of the things we've talked to our boys a lot about is I didn't

00:20:43.980 grow up with the Christmas Carol being like a super huge part of the season. But Pops' dad

00:20:49.220 watches like all the versions of the Christmas Carol. And it's something that I have loved

00:20:53.360 sort of taking from his family because that is such a great story. And also when you research

00:21:00.160 the Christmas Carol, like what Dickens did there is a lot of what formed our current sort of

00:21:06.120 thinking about Christmas. He really defined it, like a lot of the traditions that we now consider

00:21:12.320 like definitive. And that story is basically like a humanist story. There's a little bit of the

00:21:22.180 religion in there, but what it really is is a story about somebody like realizing that other

00:21:28.580 people matter and that life is better when you help other people. And like that is a lot of what

00:21:33.960 the season has become about and we can talk about how that's great and we enjoy that and they know

00:21:41.480 they know the religious story but we talk about how the season has become a lot more than that

00:21:48.140 and the parts of that that we love i like that when you say it becomes more of a humanist story

00:21:55.980 what do you mean by that do you want to define humanism pops because you're better at definitions

00:22:02.280 I mean, like a real great definition of humanism is having to do with humanity, as in like no non-materialistic, non-humanistic explanations or justifications.

00:22:18.580 And so you can be like the most common kind of humanism is secular humanism, because it's that notion that humanity will value human needs and human flourishing and will come up with our own, you know, not only justifications, but, you know, observations and then actions that can support all that.

00:22:41.380 And if you look at, uh, if you look at a Christmas carol, it's a guy who has succumbed to greed, who's turned his back on the people that cared about him the most, right?

00:22:53.620 He is that person that we all hope that we won't become.

00:22:58.040 And then when he's faced with, you know, the ramification, like the, the truths of his past that he's conveniently forgotten.

00:23:06.600 And then the ramifications of what he's doing now and could do in the future, he's sort of shocked into remembering what's more important is the community around him and that that he used to value that.

00:23:21.560 but along the way something else took its place and you know his his ego his avarice narcissism

00:23:30.280 like all of that got in the way and that when he let go of his self a bit and he realized that he

00:23:37.900 had more to give than he was giving himself credit for that he blossomed he flourished and

00:23:42.900 it wasn't and it wasn't something that he did when he was a young man which is the even better part

00:23:47.040 of the story he did it in the twilight of his life as it were right like we all think about

00:23:52.680 you know what what are our you know what that final couple of chapters of our life are going

00:23:58.420 to look like and for scrooge they were like the best parts of his life so it's like it's also a

00:24:04.720 it's never too late to be the best version of yourself it's a very empowering story and it

00:24:10.240 It comes from this one guy's desire to conquer the demons of his past and forgive himself.

00:24:17.660 And, I mean, that's as humanistic as it gets.

00:24:21.820 It is.

00:24:22.600 And when you think about it, A Christmas Carol has very little to do with Christmas except that it takes place during Christmas.

00:24:28.720 Yeah.

00:24:30.280 There's no Jesus in it, really.

00:24:32.480 I mean, I haven't watched an actual Christmas Carol in a while, but we did introduce Scrooged to the kids this year.

00:24:39.200 I love Scrooge.

00:24:40.760 I think it's a movie we quote the most, perhaps, just around the house on a daily basis.

00:24:48.660 Niagara Falls.

00:24:50.300 Mm-hmm.

00:24:51.060 Mm-hmm.

00:24:51.580 Yeah.

00:24:51.780 I mean, we quote, I would actually say, we just quote the Bill Murray canon a lot around this house.

00:24:58.780 That's fair.

00:24:59.480 It's very quotable.

00:25:00.580 Yeah.

00:25:01.080 Yeah.

00:25:01.300 I mean, another thing that I, I mean, when it comes to breeding community, I'm very lucky that we live in Philadelphia, which is a city that seems to have a religion and spiritualism of its very own in our passion for our sports teams.

00:25:18.360 We were just hiking in Zion and Bryce National Parks.

00:25:23.540 And there were a strange amount of Philly sports fans there, all of whom are wearing their gear.

00:25:29.060 To which, when my son crosses their path on the trail, says, go birds.

00:25:33.540 Yeah.

00:25:34.200 Yeah.

00:25:35.060 As you should.

00:25:35.600 And it's like we find each other.

00:25:36.860 We find each other.

00:25:37.740 And that forms a kind of community.

00:25:39.460 When my kids ask me, they're like, what is our religion?

00:25:41.400 I'm like, it's really just Philadelphia, friends.

00:25:43.260 That's what it is.

00:25:44.040 That works.

00:25:44.400 That works.

00:25:45.440 That works.

00:25:46.680 Yeah.

00:25:46.920 But one of the things I'm also curious about is, and I think that this goes back into what we were talking about, in that it does feel like there's more labor put on us then.

00:25:58.940 Because as I'm thinking about values and a moral code, you're right in that it's freeing because no one's telling us what to do.

00:26:10.560 But then there's more work because no one's telling us what to do.

00:26:14.680 Mm-hmm.

00:26:15.240 And so I want to talk a little bit about how how the two of you have have come up with the set of values that you want to pass down to your children without a religion, without a religious framework.

00:26:28.160 So let's get into that after our next break.

00:26:31.820 OK.

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00:27:24.180 Hey, we are back.

00:27:25.820 I want to talk about values and morals.

00:27:28.860 And I think that is one of the things that religion is very good at.

00:27:33.560 It's giving us rules.

00:27:35.740 And as a parent, when you have to kind of fly by the seat of your pants, that can feel a little bit more stressful.

00:27:42.200 How has it felt for the two of you?

00:27:43.700 Well, I think I am lucky because I grew up in a family that wasn't particularly religious.

00:27:52.540 So it's it's funny, like one of the amusing things about doing our podcast is that I said that and then my mom like immediately texted me and was like, no, I totally raised you religious.

00:28:02.300 I taught you about all the religions and I just didn't say that any of them was true.

00:28:06.160 like mom that's like i don't know those are that's like my instruction for building an atheist

00:28:14.360 i'm sorry yes but yes yes and yeah um so uh you know so for me it didn't feel

00:28:22.900 particularly strange because it was just the way i've always grown up but i think

00:28:30.620 we have both at different times sort of worked in entertainment or entertainment related

00:28:41.800 industries not anymore for me but um but we both care a lot about storytelling and so

00:28:48.200 pops you can bring up other stuff but I think like one example of how we have tried to pass

00:28:57.860 on our values and where we sort of found a real commonality in values is actually as a star trek

00:29:03.460 family so like star trek has not always been perfect as most things aren't no nothing nothing

00:29:11.740 nothing is perfect by the way i will say we we tried old star trek recently and it didn't what

00:29:17.160 do you the original original star treks the original tv shows and movies and it didn't it

00:29:21.840 didn't vibe with the kids but then we just started trying the new movies and they're very into them

00:29:26.460 Did you? So are you talking about like original, original, like Spock and?

00:29:32.780 Original, original. Yeah. Yeah.

00:29:34.500 Because I would highly recommend Next Gen.

00:29:37.260 OK.

00:29:37.900 As a place to start.

00:29:39.000 We started with original, original Kirk and Spock.

00:29:41.840 Yeah, those are great. I think those are harder for kids.

00:29:45.580 I think it was too slow for them.

00:29:47.400 Yeah. So I love Star Trek for multiple reasons.

00:29:51.660 The first I have to say as a storyteller, nothing to do with religion.

00:29:56.280 What's great about Next Gen and all of the series after that is I think there are certain types of media that, like, prep children for more complex media.

00:30:06.440 And Star Trek is the perfect example of that.

00:30:09.460 Because there are episodes that are, like, they're not full-on horror, but they're, like, a little scary.

00:30:14.880 There are ones that are, like, mysteries.

00:30:17.500 There are ones that are love stories.

00:30:19.440 But it's in this very digestible amount.

00:30:24.020 and so then you know when we've tried to show more complex stuff to the kids they sort of now

00:30:30.060 have this mental framework for how these different types of stories are told so I love it for that

00:30:36.680 but it just has this very Star Trek just has this very wonderful attitude of you know it's at a time

00:30:49.400 where like we've come together as like the human race because we've met other alien species and

00:30:58.860 it's this idea of like everybody is good and we just want to explore and learn it's also like

00:31:04.500 post-capitalism um and and if you go to next gen i mean i was shocked at some of the episodes

00:31:13.100 They have one that, you know, and that was back whenever that, like, addresses queer trans issues, I think, like, as best as you could do at that time.

00:31:23.400 And there's just a sort of sense of, like, caring about people and, like, the hero not being the one who's, like, has the biggest gun, but the one who, like, finds consensus and brings people together and learns something new.

00:31:37.620 And the heroes are scientists and engineers and inventors and so many of the storylines, like with Data, who's an android, about like realizing he has like full humanity.

00:31:49.220 And that keeps coming back with other characters throughout the series.

00:31:52.840 And so it's just this wonderful experience to bring up all of these topics about kind of like how we want them to be in the world.

00:32:00.480 and we're like real irritating parents.

00:32:04.340 So we're the kind of people who will show something

00:32:06.700 and then like stop in the middle and be like,

00:32:08.540 oh, oh, oh, we have to talk about this.

00:32:10.140 This is referring to this in culture

00:32:11.700 and they're like playing off this

00:32:13.000 and what do you think of this idea?

00:32:14.380 So I'm sure at some point

00:32:16.160 the kids are going to get real tired of that.

00:32:17.860 But at least for now, that's been like one small way

00:32:21.400 where it's not like sit down, teach a lesson,

00:32:24.220 but where I feel like we're passing down

00:32:27.040 how we think about different things.

00:32:28.460 I love that you mention using pop culture to chat through through things with your kids. I have to say that since introducing TV shows and movies outside of just the regular kid shit, we have had the best discussions of our family's lives. 0.63

00:32:51.340 We really have. I mean, when we can chat about a character and why they've done something or a scary moment in a movie and break down emotions, this just might be me because I am such a lover of TV and movies, so I'm happy that I'm sharing it with my kids.

00:33:11.800 But it has been a gift. It has been a gift for breaking open conversation between my five-year-old and my seven-year-old.

00:33:18.780 yeah i adore having those opportunities where the kids have emotional reactions to something

00:33:27.880 that we're watching and then for us to pause not for some sort of like narrative

00:33:32.120 issue or some sort of cultural touch point or social relevance or whatever but more like

00:33:40.080 from a storytelling perspective do you guys see how you're feeling right now

00:33:46.720 What is it in the story that made you feel that way?

00:33:50.440 And then why do you think the storytellers wanted you to feel that way?

00:33:54.800 Because if you look at myth-making and then religion as a form of storytelling,

00:34:01.560 like a cultural narrative tradition, right?

00:34:05.120 Then the religion is perpetuated by those emotional touch points.

00:34:11.000 Like we are told that we are broken.

00:34:14.040 And if only Jesus can heal us, and then he heals us by sacrificing himself.

00:34:20.900 Oh, no, wait, God sacrificed Jesus for our sins.

00:34:26.440 So God loves us that much.

00:34:28.860 All of a sudden, you have this emotional connection to the story that you didn't have before.

00:34:36.460 And then that's all rooted in how you view yourself.

00:34:40.640 And so, so again, one last thing on, on Star Trek, you know, we have, we have all of these, you know, swirling influences in our lives. But one thing happened last night in, at the, the season finale of Star Trek Deep Space Nine, season one, where Captain Benjamin Sisko, who is the sort of, I guess, as much of a, you know, main character as the series can have.

00:35:05.840 he's a single dad his kid is in school there are religious extremists his school was bombed

00:35:13.640 and he's talking to one of the religious figureheads of the culture in question and he

00:35:20.680 says specifically we don't prioritize any one culture over the other we teach that like all

00:35:28.340 cultures have value. We're not, we're not in the business of prioritizing. And so I think as

00:35:36.540 parents, the more that we can take the onus off of ourselves to have like the right answer and

00:35:43.120 more just be like to our kids, okay, we're going to give you a way of asking questions. So that

00:35:47.920 way, no matter what you encounter moving forward, you can have this heuristic, you can have this

00:35:53.080 framework in your head that lets you navigate. And so long as you have an objective, then you

00:35:59.800 can have a moral grounding. And then you can ask the questions that help you better understand

00:36:05.740 how this thing that you're trying to figure out intersects with the rest of your life.

00:36:10.940 And so they don't feel quite as lost, maybe. At least that's my hope as a parent.

00:36:15.380 and I also think when your beliefs aren't tied to the idea that there is some like

00:36:28.180 that there's something handed down that you have to believe

00:36:33.160 one nice thing about that is it does make it easier to change them like I can learn more

00:36:40.480 about something and if I want to change my mind I'm just changing my mind and doing better I don't

00:36:47.040 have to you know worry if it's going to like shatter something bigger that was told to me because

00:36:56.160 I can I can keep updating and it has less impact I mean I'm it it sort of happened but like I am

00:37:08.160 I know the teenage years can be hard, but I am really looking forward to the years where the boys are, you know, hearing from, like, a lot more sources, and I can't wait until, like, they start showing me all the ways I'm wrong.

00:37:23.600 That's going to be really fun on one level.

00:37:28.800 Hey, Dad, have you ever heard of this guy, Andrew Tate?

00:37:31.640 Not, guys, I am hoping that Andrew Tate is locked away by that time.

00:37:36.560 Okay.

00:37:36.940 I mean, maybe it's wishful thinking, but if there's one person I would like to throw in a gulag, it's Andrew Tate.

00:37:44.720 Yeah.

00:37:45.460 I mean, we tried.

00:37:47.280 I, you know, our boys are almost 9 and 11, and I'm already trying to talk to them because, like, I know they're going to see it.

00:37:55.940 And I want to be the first voice they have to hear about those topics.

00:38:02.180 and you know so it's a it's a scary challenge it's a scary challenge it really really is

00:38:14.360 and a lot of this is a scary challenge but I think that we're we're bringing up good points here

00:38:18.500 that all of this is going to require really great communication really open communication

00:38:25.600 a lot of conversations and a lot of just constant iterating, you know, to use a lame-ass tech word

00:38:34.740 to figure out what works for you, what works for your particular family, right?

00:38:41.020 Well, skepticism is rooted in humility. And one of the things that we talk about a lot

00:38:47.180 on our podcast is the value of saying, I don't know, that it's lost on a lot of people.

00:38:55.600 especially these days where we are conditioned to thinking that because we can find an answer

00:39:01.920 within seconds using our phones, that we now have justification for whatever belief we might have.

00:39:08.780 Media literacy and critical thinking, reading bias, those sorts of things have fallen by the

00:39:14.940 wayside in favor of, you know, just letting people follow some sort of series of dopamine hits to

00:39:22.000 confirm whatever bias they've already got. And so one thing that I love about parenting is that

00:39:29.420 the process has made me a better person because I find myself practicing saying, I don't know

00:39:38.200 more often because I'm asked more questions that as we know, as parents, kids ask the craziest 0.99

00:39:46.500 fucking shit and you'll get this oblique question that makes absolutely zero sense and you might be 0.99

00:39:53.620 tempted to come up with an answer because it's funny for you but saying I don't know in those 1.00

00:39:58.240 moments is great a great training tool for the kids because then they're like oh wait dad doesn't

00:40:05.580 know and mom doesn't know then you can say do you know how to look this up on your computer let's go

00:40:10.600 together and let's see if we can find some, some answer that might satisfy you that we can actually

00:40:17.760 verify as being at least more like 51% truthful. You know, it's a process. And since parenting is

00:40:27.300 a process, I think it behooves us as parents to engage in that, that humility side of things,

00:40:33.480 because that I don't know side of things is really where the juice is at, in my opinion.

00:40:42.180 I think the I don't know side of things is a lot of fun.

00:40:45.260 I do.

00:40:45.920 Scary.

00:40:46.500 Scary as hell.

00:40:47.380 But also, I mean, I think that's where things get interesting.

00:40:50.820 Yeah.

00:40:51.680 I mean, it's how we can actually entertain ourselves even when our kids are driving us

00:40:59.120 nuts because then we're intellectually engaged.

00:41:02.580 We're not just hearing something and then batting it away with some sort of don't ask me that question or because I said so or whatever, like actually getting into the weeds with your kids about their interests and the questions they have is some of the best parenting moments I ever have.

00:41:23.640 I love that. Guys, tell everyone where they can find you, your podcast and more about The Family Skeptical.

00:41:28.380 so the family skeptical is available everywhere you find podcasts uh we only release uh every

00:41:37.040 three weeks because i have a full-time job yeah not easy nothing's easy nothing's easy um and

00:41:43.700 we're also on uh instagram at the family skeptical where i tell weird stories that i can't otherwise

00:41:52.060 fit into the podcast and post strange art, which is sort of like, I don't know, I feel like that's

00:41:59.520 my performance art project for Instagram. So fun. I love it. Thank you guys so much for being here.

00:42:07.240 Thank you for having us. Thank you.

00:42:22.060 Thank you.

00:42:52.060 I want to date with Roars, Carti says.

00:43:01.140 Roars? Raka asks.

00:43:03.280 This is the love story of real hinge couple Carti and Raka.

00:43:07.360 Written and read by me, Nicola Dynan.

00:43:10.120 Listen to the free audiobook now.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - May 06, 2025

Raising Good Humans Without God： A Secular Parenting Survival Guide

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