Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - May 04, 2025


Sunday Nice Things: The Family Skeptical

Topics
The Wild Courage to Go After What You Want (with former Google Exec Jenny Wood) Raising Good Humans Without God: A Secular Parenting Survival Guide

Episode Stats


Length

58 minutes

Words per minute

143.45

Word count

8,401

Sentence count

590

Harmful content

Toxicity

8

sentences flagged

Hate speech

1

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.100 I want to date with Rawls, Carti says.
00:00:03.480 Rawls? Rucka asks.
00:00:05.560 This is the love story of real hinge couple Carti and Rucka.
00:00:09.620 Written and read by me, Nicola Dynan.
00:00:12.380 Listen to the free audiobook now.
00:00:16.960 Chew on this bold question from Dentine Gum.
00:00:20.420 Is it ever okay to compliment a millennial on their skinny jeans?
00:00:26.320 In 2026?
00:00:28.240 Dentine. Chew bold.
00:00:58.240 and I'm not sure what we're going to do today. I think we might just sit on the couch and watch
00:01:01.520 movies today, which I feel really good about. We bought about 19 tomato plants yesterday,
00:01:07.920 which I do have to plant at some point today, but I'm kind of hoping that Nick Astor will just
00:01:12.880 do it if I just keep looking the other way. I do. We'll see. This episode feels particularly apt
00:01:21.300 for a Sunday. I'm actually doing an interview episode this week with the couple whose podcast
00:01:26.900 this is. Their show is called The Family Skeptical, and I'm going to drop an episode here in the feed
00:01:33.440 before we do their interview this week. Mom and Pops are a married atheist couple raising two
00:01:38.700 wonderful and strange children, and they use this podcast to talk about raising kids in non-belief.
00:01:46.360 How do you raise kids without religion, which is something that I'm very, very curious about.
00:01:50.800 On the podcast, they ask big questions, dissect weird parenting moments, and examine how society
00:01:56.500 ignores or misrepresents atheist and non-believer families. I loved my interview with them this
00:02:02.040 week. Their show is really interesting. I think it gives us a lot to think about whether or not
00:02:06.320 you're a family that embraces religion. Welcome to The Family Skeptical, parenting through
00:02:26.200 non-belief. We're a married atheist couple raising two wonderful, strange children. We ask big 0.77
00:02:32.480 questions, dissect weird parenting moments, and examine how society ignores or misrepresents
00:02:37.680 families like ours. If you're any stripe of non-believer who's involved in raising children,
00:02:42.900 welcome. You are our people. Our kids have heard all our swears, but yours might not have. So be
00:02:49.840 thoughtful if there are young people listening with you.
00:02:53.920 Happy New Year.
00:02:56.600 Indeed. It's going to be a ways away from New Year's when people hear this.
00:03:02.320 Okay. It doesn't mean that we can't wish them Happy New Year.
00:03:05.840 No, indeed.
00:03:07.800 And when they listen to it, it'll be the first episode of the New Year.
00:03:12.200 No, it won't.
00:03:13.380 Really?
00:03:13.720 Yep. We posted one on the third.
00:03:19.840 Okay. Well, did we wish them a happy new year in that episode?
00:03:23.440 I think we did. Or holidays, something.
00:03:26.040 Okay, whatever. I take it back.
00:03:30.180 May your new year be full of toil and strife.
00:03:34.180 Not really.
00:03:35.460 No, not really.
00:03:37.200 But for us, it was just New Year's.
00:03:40.660 Yes.
00:03:42.000 And I – it has been positively lovely.
00:03:47.920 i busy busy stressful i haven't yeah okay you don't think so well
00:04:01.120 no i mean in moments maybe not maybe not like average but there have definitely been some tough
00:04:09.540 moments yeah for sure this is like the first week i can talk i had one of those four week
00:04:16.540 coughs that's been going around. So it was quite the thing. I basically could not start a sentence
00:04:25.100 to Pops without... You couldn't finish a sentence. Yes. I couldn't finish a sentence without
00:04:29.760 breaking into a terrible hacking nonsense. But I think I'm finally, finally on the mend.
00:04:40.360 But no, I don't... Yeah. I guess stressful in moments, but not as stressful as some have felt.
00:04:46.140 I mean, so nice.
00:04:48.180 I think I'm just ready for like normality to kick back in.
00:04:52.280 Oh, yes.
00:04:53.500 Because we had many, many, many Christmases.
00:05:00.380 Yes.
00:05:01.020 Just, I think, all the Christmases.
00:05:04.700 Yeah, I think that really should be what we talk about family topic-wise today is the
00:05:10.020 fact that we had five christmases to the point where our youngest go termed it the last one
00:05:17.660 fifth miss which i love yes and i think that we should endeavor every holiday season to have
00:05:24.580 a fifth miss i don't know is that too extreme i i mean was that itself too stressful having
00:05:32.040 having to keep track of all that you know like each was lovely and different and different so
00:05:39.120 in that way, it was truly beautiful. It was a lot to keep track of. It was a lot to keep
00:05:45.740 track of. And I think- It was a lot of eating. It was a lot of eating. The boys definitely just
00:05:52.000 got in a mode of like, gifts just always happen. It's just sort of, I don't know. So this is the
00:06:02.560 joy of having divorced parents. When we go see Pops' folks, it's very simple because it's just
00:06:10.240 one family. But when we go see mine, there's just a lot more people. So we had, it became
00:06:19.740 Fifthmas because we had gifts from my best friend and we were scheduled to go over to my mom's for
00:06:27.440 Christmas proper. And they were, of course, antsy on Christmas morning. So the first Christmas was
00:06:34.380 opening the presents from my best friend before we went to my mom's. Then there was Christmas at
00:06:40.720 my mom's. Then we had a separate Christmas with my dad. Then we had a separate Christmas with my
00:06:46.020 dad's extended family. And then your parents were awesome and came up after we returned home. And
00:06:52.520 we had our fifth miss with your parents at home. And that was a stop tour. Yeah. It was really,
00:07:02.580 it was really something and like different traditions at every gathering.
00:07:08.420 And that's what I wanted to talk about is the skeptic in me then has to say, okay,
00:07:14.320 well, actually this is more utilitarianism, I think is, what was the utility of having five
00:07:21.380 christmases and i think the boys having a look at like five different looks at holiday traditions
00:07:27.740 gift giving paradigms food paradigms right paces intensity levels it's just it was wonderful like
00:07:37.900 like at your aunt's house when we did your dad's extended family we like we got to we got to watch
00:07:47.500 like diehard three with your cousin who is who himself is so lovely but it was such like a
00:07:53.880 different sort of it was it was a different sort of vibe yeah as it was with your dad
00:08:00.240 and as it was with my parents it was just it was it was it was a great opportunity for the boys
00:08:09.080 to look at the different traditions none of which were religious they were all like every
00:08:19.140 every celebration was was secular even with your your you know jesus-y aunt being at your dad's
00:08:28.480 extended family um and so it was interesting because because we see so many similar kinds
00:08:37.460 of secular celebrations, but then they can start to see the nuances. Okay, what are the food
00:08:43.860 differences? What's the pacing difference? Like my parents do the whole stocking thing.
00:08:47.980 It's their only stocking experience this season was only on 5thmas, right?
00:08:56.120 You know, from my family, we do the sort of cryptic, Ridley messages on the gifts.
00:09:04.120 I was going to bring that up. I love that.
00:09:05.580 That extra layer of pizzazz and awesomeness to gift giving. And so I don't know, like having all those different looks lets them help triangulate like what version of the secular side of Christmas they gravitate towards, right?
00:09:28.980 Because then they can apply their own skepticism and say, okay, well, this works for me. That doesn't. My version is this. Because they have all this data to pull from now. It's not just one tradition where they get surprised when they see other people's traditions. They have multiple within the same season. I think it's pretty cool.
00:09:55.680 Yeah. And I think also just like the outpouring of love from everybody was so touching. And just to see that in so many different environments with so many different types of people, it was really, really special.
00:10:13.580 Plus, I started to really connect with one of my favorite holiday movies, which is the 1970 Scrooge musical.
00:10:23.120 Oh, yeah.
00:10:24.240 With all those songs.
00:10:28.880 It's a really amazing one.
00:10:31.240 Yeah.
00:10:33.080 Albert Finney transforms.
00:10:35.520 Yeah.
00:10:36.560 No, that's an astounding performance.
00:10:38.740 And then him deciding he wants to watch it when we're like driving to Wisconsin.
00:10:44.500 It was just, it was magic.
00:10:46.840 So that was fun too.
00:10:48.860 Since you brought that up, I think the other fun thing about this holiday season is another
00:10:54.600 thing that we love about the holidays recently.
00:10:57.980 It means we get a new season of the new All Creatures Great and Small.
00:11:03.060 Just so good.
00:11:04.860 And a couple of years, we had tried to watch it with the boys.
00:11:08.240 and they just were not ready for it.
00:11:11.020 There was not enough action.
00:11:12.740 There was too much talking.
00:11:14.900 The subtlety of the character interactions,
00:11:17.180 they were just too young to get.
00:11:19.100 But we thought, eh, maybe they're ready for it this year.
00:11:24.220 And they are really ready for it.
00:11:28.260 And we're just, yeah, we're just, we're rolling through.
00:11:31.100 We finished season one, we're on to season two.
00:11:33.580 and it's about veterinary practice in the Yorkshire Dales based on the classic books
00:11:39.840 taking place right before the start of World War II and the head of the veterinary practice his
00:11:46.600 name is Siegfried it is an amazing character in the original series that I watched when I was a
00:11:52.020 kid there was just like a great performance for that character that I thought could never be beat
00:11:57.620 I don't know if it's been beat, but like the new interpretation is certainly as good and is
00:12:04.280 just amazing. And there is a scene where Siegfried gives one of his classic looks
00:12:11.460 and the boys just cracked up so hard. And I was like, yes, we're like, we're there. And the fact
00:12:18.940 that they can watch that means we can watch so many other things. So I am so excited about 2024,
00:12:26.400 for just like pushing the envelope even farther with what we've shown them. I think it's going to
00:12:32.460 be really exciting. Well, you know, the other BBC holiday tradition is Doctor Who, and I can't wait
00:12:37.500 to start that with them. I know. And I think they're totally ready for it, except for how
00:12:41.960 scary it can get. Yeah. It's not often, but when they do it, they do it quite well. And I think
00:12:48.260 particularly reader, it's a type of horror that would trigger him. So I think we have to wait.
00:12:56.140 Because he's good with some kinds of horror.
00:12:57.780 Oh, yeah.
00:12:58.520 Totally fine with creature horror.
00:13:01.120 It's the supernatural stuff, the cosmic-y stuff that really gets him.
00:13:05.000 Yeah, I think the Weeping Angels are too much and a few other things.
00:13:09.000 Yeah.
00:13:10.240 Though I think Goh will love the Ood.
00:13:13.560 Oh, I mean, they'll both love so many parts of that show.
00:13:15.100 He's going to dress up as an Ood, holding a little glowing ball.
00:13:18.660 Yeah.
00:13:19.180 Yeah.
00:13:20.560 The Ood.
00:13:22.020 Sorry, I have to do the David Tennant Scottish Brugue, the Ood.
00:13:26.140 But, but yeah, it's, it's been good. And sort of, I don't know how, but we sort of dialed in
00:13:32.840 everybody where like, everybody gave the most thoughtful gifts to the boys and everything they
00:13:39.060 got is stuff that they're going to use tons. Sometimes I'm sort of like, oh man, we got so
00:13:43.200 much stuff and some of it's just going to be, there's just so much, but like, it really just
00:13:47.720 feels like everything was so appreciated and everything will be wonderful. And they've been
00:13:53.500 building all like the crazy lego sets they got they've been so it was uh wearing all the holiday
00:13:59.860 clothing wearing all the holiday clothing reading the books yeah doing all the things yeah no so it
00:14:06.400 was good and and you know fifth miss might become a thing some years and and that's okay because it
00:14:14.860 worked out i had my doubts but you know i i went into it with an open mind and we we exited
00:14:21.820 largely unscathed yeah but it was hard like the back and forth and all the family groups even
00:14:30.160 though the pace was less frenetic as it has been in past years just the requirement to manage all
00:14:38.340 the relationships for people that i'm not necessarily related to in like like you know
00:14:45.380 not my parents. Yes, my marriage is different. My inherited relationships. It's a lot for my
00:14:52.580 neurodivergence. I really have to buckle down some days during holidays like that and take a lot of
00:15:00.840 deep breaths and work through how I'm going to keep my energy up throughout all of that and
00:15:11.720 keep my attitude positive and outgoing as much as possible, even if I have to put on a mask
00:15:18.120 to do so metaphorically. I did it. I overcame and the boys had a blast, which was the most
00:15:27.360 important part. You were amazing. Thank you. It took effort.
00:15:32.560 i don't think i can be your friend isabella said rebecca's stomach flipped this is the
00:15:46.060 love story of real hinge couple isabella and rebecca written and read by me temi denton
00:15:50.660 listen to the free audiobook now
00:15:53.240 so for our first topic true time we posted an episode but it was just like
00:16:02.360 random stuff. So for our first real topic of 2024, I'm excited to talk to you about this
00:16:11.040 because it's something I've actually wondered about our entire relationship.
00:16:16.000 Oh boy.
00:16:17.660 So I was listening to Under the Influence by Joe Piazza, which is a great podcast about
00:16:27.140 mom influencers and how kind of that influencer economy affects us. And she had an episode about
00:16:37.280 parenting advice and all of the sort of parenting advice influencers out there. And basically in
00:16:44.420 that episode, the take was, well, first, and I agree with this, so just sort of laying this down,
00:16:51.540 Like there's small amounts of parenting advice that are just like, this is important to keep
00:16:57.560 your kids alive. And that's very important. So that's like car seats you have to get right
00:17:03.140 and safe sleep habits when they're babies to avoid as much as possible sits. And like those
00:17:11.700 two things are really important. And all the science says, like, do it that way. It's much
00:17:17.940 better for your kids. It's a way to avoid disaster. So that's important. But that basically
00:17:23.180 the rest of parenting advice can kind of go fuck itself, that so much of it is just about 0.95
00:17:31.240 making parents feel bad about themselves and is also, except for a very few number of people, 0.98
00:17:40.800 not particularly scientifically accurate. And then right after that, she posted an article
00:17:48.420 with her advice for new parents. I think she sort of admits that there are issues with parenting
00:17:55.920 advice, but she posted her article with her advice for new parents. And I thought that was
00:18:01.280 great. And I thought, and the advice was really good. So I think there is a weird world of
00:18:09.580 parenting advice, where I feel both of those things. And I really think this plays into the
00:18:17.700 concept of being skeptical parents, because we talk a lot about looking at the reality of things
00:18:23.460 and question what we do and like, trying to look for what's real. And so I think parenting advice
00:18:31.760 plays into that and doesn't. And I am very curious how you feel about the kind of parenting
00:18:41.520 advice economy. Oh, man, that is such an interesting question, moms. I think that
00:18:50.300 all advice... Okay, I'm going to back up. I like to view advice from two lenses. One,
00:18:59.820 The same lens that I would use if I'm reading like biography, a historical document, whatever, like I would look for the context, right? I'd look for the person's bias, right? I'd look for the cues that would lead them to that advice through their upbringing, their parenting, the whole nature and nurture thing.
00:19:23.060 where are they in their lives right now that would motivate them to give that advice or to
00:19:27.840 think that advice is valid and the other lens that i would view it from would be the lens of
00:19:37.740 how to term this like the the bs detector lens right um that
00:19:47.400 that you want to look at why the person is giving you this advice. But then you also
00:19:56.500 obviously need to take a look at what the advice is, right? And sometimes those play off of each
00:20:05.220 other. Like sometimes the what drives the person to share it. Like it could be something they
00:20:11.880 didn't come up with, but because they respect another influencer, celebrity, whatever, yada,
00:20:16.900 yada, that they're compelled to share it because they also trust that person's opinion on all
00:20:22.840 these other things, right? That maybe they're in some sort of information silo when it comes
00:20:30.260 to parenting as like we saw with all the trad wife stuff, that it can be a very sort of insular
00:20:38.040 set of information that they draw from to come to their conclusions and that can lead them to have
00:20:43.680 similar opinions about things. And they're not alone in that. Everybody is prone to this sort
00:20:52.480 of thing, myself, yourself included. It's just the way that we operate, especially now in this day of
00:20:58.580 online interaction where people will more rapidly coalesce around ideas, form ideological groups.
00:21:09.940 And so when it comes to parenting advice, I would look at it from that skeptical side of why are they telling this to me? And then is it valuable? Does it work? Does it work for me? Could it work for somebody else?
00:21:27.240 again, what is my context, right? Like if somebody gives me advice about how to make your kids
00:21:34.780 eat more healthy food, I mean, I'll listen. If it's in person, I'll listen out of courtesy or
00:21:43.140 if it's an article, I might skim it to see if there's anything I'm missing. But since our kids
00:21:48.020 already eat fruits and vegetables and protein sources that also include plant-based protein
00:21:54.040 sources and all sorts of different animal-based sources and they drink a lot of water, I am less
00:22:01.660 concerned about hearing advice like that because they already are, in my humble opinion, kind of
00:22:10.100 ticking that box, right? But if it's something else that I think that they might need more help
00:22:14.320 with, like managing expectations for screen time or managing stress with sibling interactions,
00:22:24.040 You know, that sort of stuff, like I would read that – I would take that under more heavy consideration because that's something that I view them as needing maybe more help with or us as needing more help with helping them with.
00:22:36.200 So, again, it would come down to our context. Also, then the utility and then do I trust that this advice is coming from them in a robustly honest, intellectually honest way?
00:22:55.500 So I would say when the boys were young, I searched out a lot of parenting advice.
00:23:02.460 You really did. It was commendable how much you researched the whole process.
00:23:07.480 And it was definitely my gateway into all of the parenting media that I now follow. And I feel like you did not have that urge at all.
00:23:24.480 No. And I'm curious about that because as a skeptic and somebody who puts a lot of faith in.
00:23:34.460 Faith.
00:23:35.660 Well, yeah. Okay. Sorry. Somebody.
00:23:38.220 I value.
00:23:39.080 Yes. Somebody who puts a lot of value in science and research. I am curious why
00:23:48.880 you didn't really have an urge to do that kind of research?
00:23:55.540 That's a great question. I specifically wanted to do it my way and to seek out help
00:24:06.120 when we realized that help was really actually needed. If we knew we were going to have a
00:24:15.260 special needs child, I'm sure I would have researched more. Yeah. Because that, especially
00:24:21.120 like the condition, obviously I would want to, I would want to be as much of a lay expert as
00:24:26.100 possible in my child's condition, such that I would be able to predict outcomes of treatments.
00:24:33.780 I would be able to anticipate, you know, need the child's needs on a moment to moment basis.
00:24:40.560 so I could make my child as comfortable, as happy, and as productive as possible so that my child
00:24:45.700 could grow to his or her fullest potential. But since that wasn't the case, I wanted to instead
00:24:52.820 lean on my experience in teaching other people's children and viewing how other people interact
00:24:58.340 with their children for so many years. And then also my innate desire to be a parent,
00:25:04.400 my enthusiasm for being a parent and then see where that took us.
00:25:12.100 And also I trusted you.
00:25:13.580 Like I trusted that I shouldn't have.
00:25:17.100 I had zero experience.
00:25:20.020 I mean, I had –
00:25:21.460 You didn't let me finish my thought.
00:25:23.080 Okay.
00:25:24.020 Sorry.
00:25:24.420 I trusted you to like to go through as you seem to be really bent on doing all of this
00:25:32.560 parenting media. And if you found something that, that you thought that I should check out,
00:25:39.740 that I also felt that I also felt compelled to check out that I would. And I, some things I did
00:25:45.700 and some things I didn't honestly, like some, there are some books you recommended that I read
00:25:50.260 that I didn't read. There are some resources that you suggested I check out that I totally
00:25:55.240 like poured over. And so again, just like with everybody else, I looked at where you were coming
00:26:02.760 from and what my own personal context was, and I filtered your advice through that. And I thought
00:26:10.680 to myself, this will work until it doesn't. And when it doesn't, I'll change what I'm doing.
00:26:17.300 And it continued to work. The boys are doing great. Are there things that I could have done
00:26:22.680 better. I suppose, but there are always going to be things that you can do better. And I ultimately
00:26:28.900 think that the outcome of our kids speaks for itself. They're doing great and they are themselves.
00:26:38.340 I don't assume you remember, but just out of pure curiosity, can you think of anything
00:26:43.060 I suggested you look at that you did really find helpful?
00:26:47.020 Oh my gosh. I mean, you sent me a lot of like articles and stuff and I would like that, that was easy to digest. So I would click through and I, sometimes I would scan and sometimes I would pour over.
00:26:59.320 Um, I, I seem to remember you sent me a really good one about, um, differences in educational
00:27:09.020 approaches when we were looking at, um, different when, when I was actually going around and
00:27:15.480 interviewing different schools for reader, um, and based on what you recommended and
00:27:24.400 And then in conjunction with my own direct experience in visiting some of these schools
00:27:32.420 and talking to the administrators that were giving the tours, I realized what would work.
00:27:40.380 And we found a great school as a result of it.
00:27:42.640 We really did.
00:27:44.200 I mean, it was LA, so it was expensive as hell, but it worked out fine.
00:27:48.080 The boys did great.
00:27:48.960 They had – and because of that, they were able – I credit that school with equipping them with the tools necessary to transition to going to a totally different country and going to a totally different school and at no point ever having separation anxiety.
00:28:07.240 Yes.
00:28:08.120 Yeah.
00:28:09.020 It was magical.
00:28:10.300 I do think the very good experience they had at their –
00:28:13.880 Magical.
00:28:14.540 Preschool.
00:28:14.960 They transitioned so well to school here where we live now.
00:28:18.700 Yeah.
00:28:18.960 I was totally blown away, especially with Go, who can be a bit of a delicate soul.
00:28:25.420 Yeah.
00:28:25.660 And he had to transition to a different daycare and to new school.
00:28:29.640 Yes.
00:28:30.740 When Reeder just went from preschool to actual school, which he would have done in LA anyways.
00:28:39.180 Yeah.
00:28:39.800 So, yeah.
00:28:41.900 That's really interesting.
00:28:43.080 I think –
00:28:45.080 Because I do value your advice.
00:28:46.800 You're a very smart person.
00:28:48.340 I am.
00:28:48.720 I, I, you are. And, and I like, I like hearing your thoughts. I ask for your help and your
00:28:53.900 advice on all sorts of things daily. But when it came to this one thing, I was bound and determined
00:29:00.840 to trust my instincts a bit. I don't know that that's, that's kind of the easiest way for me
00:29:09.040 to put it. No, that makes a lot of sense. I think I felt differently because I had had
00:29:13.840 no experience with kids. I totally got it. I had done a tiny bit of babysitting for the most part,
00:29:21.460 very badly. I wasn't very good at it. And I did not feel comfortable with babies.
00:29:28.900 There were some sort of kid situations where I would jump in, but didn't feel super comfortable
00:29:37.920 jumping in with kids. And yeah, so I was very uncertain of myself. And Reeder was an interesting
00:29:48.040 first child because he wasn't, I don't think Reeder was particularly difficult, but he was,
00:29:57.460 I feel like he was just a hard read. Like a lot of the first couple of months with him,
00:30:03.740 I just felt like we were sort of staring at each other like, I don't know, what do you think we
00:30:10.680 should do? It was, it was, it was, yeah, it was interesting. I don't know. When I think about
00:30:18.840 parenting advice, I always think about the book, Oh Crap Potty Training as like the perfect
00:30:26.280 distillation of the issues with parenting advice. Because as you mentioned, the boys were both at a
00:30:34.840 preschool. When Reeder went into the classroom before the classroom where he would have to be
00:30:41.440 potty trained, which I think was, we can never remember, a three or four-year-old? They had to
00:30:47.900 be, we think it was three, right? For the three-year-old room? Just keep talking. Okay, whatever.
00:30:56.280 So, whatever classroom was before the classroom where they had to be potty trained, when he entered it, the teacher had taken us aside and said, you know, for the next classroom, they're going to need to be potty trained, but don't worry.
00:31:09.660 We work on it a ton in this classroom and kind of we got it.
00:31:13.400 Ha.
00:31:13.860 Well, the thing is like that.
00:31:15.820 Not necessarily their fault.
00:31:17.840 Not their fault.
00:31:18.440 And that preschool was great.
00:31:20.180 And they did so much.
00:31:21.800 I hear stories about other people's daycare experiences and I feel so bad that they were
00:31:29.820 not able to have the experience that we did because I've heard about kids with like biting
00:31:35.100 problems where the school threatened to throw them out. And both of our kids had short periods
00:31:41.980 of issues with biting and their teachers were so understanding. And I talked to them and I was like,
00:31:48.280 I can, like, what was so hard is they didn't exhibit any of that behavior at home.
00:31:54.500 So there was really no way for us to parent them out of it because we were never there
00:32:01.780 in the moment.
00:32:03.380 And the teachers were so great about, like, not vilifying them because of it, like, recognizing
00:32:09.020 that it's a thing that a lot of kids go through, you know, have, so anyways, they really help
00:32:15.440 with a lot of things a ton.
00:32:18.280 But what happened in that classroom is that there was some turnover, which happens in preschools and daycares, and different teachers came in.
00:32:26.920 And I think it just got dropped.
00:32:29.100 So we were like weeks away from reader transitioning to this new classroom, and he was totally not potty trained.
00:32:37.660 Oh, no, not even close.
00:32:38.720 We hadn't done a thing because we're just like, oh, they got it.
00:32:41.860 And then we just sort of were like, oh. 0.98
00:32:42.800 Oh, crap. 0.95
00:32:44.040 Potty training. 0.99
00:32:45.260 Exactly.
00:32:45.740 But here's the thing. And I can't remember if I, like, I don't know how, I can't remember if I read that book, like, in a mad rush, realizing it, or if I had sort of read it before when I was just thinking about potty training. I don't know. I don't know how it happened.
00:33:07.140 But I either read it in that moment or I had read it when I was thinking about it before.
00:33:13.920 But that book is so interesting because what's great about it is that it worked for us.
00:33:20.120 And I fully understand that there are probably lots of kids that it wouldn't work for.
00:33:24.780 But they have this system where you just have your kids be naked from the waist down.
00:33:29.220 For three days, you keep them in an area where there's not carpeting.
00:33:33.840 So if there's an accident, it's not terrible.
00:33:37.060 And I got to say, it worked with both boys.
00:33:40.720 In that mad rush, we did it with Reader and it totally worked.
00:33:45.400 And then because it worked so well, we did the same thing with Go and it worked again.
00:33:50.020 Also, we had two boys.
00:33:51.180 I don't know how people have fared with it with girls.
00:33:53.440 Who knows?
00:33:54.960 And I would not have known how to do it if it had not been for that book.
00:34:00.040 I have no idea how we would have potty trained him over a long weekend.
00:34:07.680 Just it wouldn't have happened.
00:34:09.700 I don't know.
00:34:11.200 So that was brilliant.
00:34:12.580 The other thing about that book is it is so judgy. 0.99
00:34:17.100 And if you are having problems potty training, it would make you feel like crap. 0.98
00:34:23.100 It would be the other meaning of the title.
00:34:25.180 It has so much awful advice about how, like, if you don't potty train by this point, your kid is going to have troubles like way into adulthood.
00:34:34.320 It is such a fear mongering book, but its system saved our assets.
00:34:40.780 Yeah.
00:34:40.940 So to me, it's like both sides. And I think as a skeptic, like one of the issues is with all of this behavioral stuff, there's advice, but it's not like other things where like if you look at enough kids, you can find something that's going to work for everybody.
00:35:03.240 At best, if you've done really good research, you can make suggestions about what works for a larger percentage of kids.
00:35:12.460 But when it comes from behavioral stuff, like the thing that works for the majority of kids might not work with your child.
00:35:21.000 So it's always going to be a little bit difficult on that level.
00:35:26.620 But on the other hand, I do think there are things that come up where like, you just need to hear how other people have handled it. Because sometimes there's situations you're like, I don't know what to do with this. Like it didn't happen to me as a kid. I remember when Reeder is such a good sleeper now. He's just like, dead to the world the second he goes out.
00:35:53.960 but when he was nice if he was like that for the first year of his life oh my god it was
00:35:58.600 impossible and it there were parts of it
00:36:01.460 that's i hear that sound in my nightmares you think he's asleep then you stop patting and
00:36:08.220 walking him and then the weakest little cry it's so sad which means also you have another hour of
00:36:17.620 work left to do. Yeah. It took us sometimes upwards of three hours. I think I'm still tired
00:36:23.860 from that. I think that's why I'm tired all the time because he sucked my life out in that first
00:36:28.240 year. But he was so hard to put to sleep. He was so hard to put down for a nap. I was just like,
00:36:34.500 I could not figure out what to do with my days. And at the time I was, I had been working in
00:36:41.740 entertainment and I was still doing sort of like a side gig with this lovely documentary producer.
00:36:47.620 who had kids. And she's like, oh, I read this thing that gives you this like schedule.
00:36:52.960 And it was, what was nice about it is it wasn't so much like at this time, at this time, at this
00:37:00.280 time, do something. But it was like, you have to do your day in this order. So like you have to
00:37:05.640 feed and then play and then nap. And it wasn't perfect. And it's not like his sleep ever got
00:37:11.340 great, but at least it gave me a way to kind of focus our days. And that was really helpful.
00:37:19.960 And I just wouldn't have known, I was just like flailing. I did not know how to handle the
00:37:25.020 situation. And I'm sure there are tons of people that that did not work for. And if somebody gave
00:37:29.780 it to them and was like, oh, this is a solution. And then it didn't work. That would feel like
00:37:34.140 incredibly demoralizing. But I just needed some framework to make our days manageable. And I was
00:37:42.320 so happy to have it. I'm so torn in retrospect because, again, speaking as a neurodivergent
00:37:54.040 person, as you know, as you saw today when I got stressed out, start at the beginning of the day,
00:38:00.240 knowing everything that I had to do. Knowing that I had actually a schedule, but even the
00:38:06.480 schedule wasn't necessarily enough because I didn't know if I would be able to actually fit
00:38:11.900 everything in. That generated a lot of anxiety because I need the schedule and woe betide a
00:38:19.360 schedule that gets broken. And so I like that structure. I have sought out as an adult various
00:38:30.660 developmental programs for writing and all sorts of things that give me sort of like an algorithmic
00:38:38.740 sense of how to improve. And I found that I operate well under those circumstances, but it is
00:38:45.800 it is a lot more structure than a lot of other people would probably seek out, but that's just
00:38:50.880 the way my brain works. And also I, I have to constantly fight the urge to judge myself and
00:39:00.760 punish myself and have a negative impression of myself. And so both of those together,
00:39:06.780 I guess it's good that I sidestepped a lot of parenting advice because I would have been
00:39:12.840 attracted to the algorithmic nature of, oh, here's this thing, plug it into your life and you will
00:39:18.340 have a success. But then also, oh, the algorithm didn't work. You should kill yourself now or
00:39:27.280 whatever. You know what I mean? Like, obviously it's not that extreme, but, but that's like, 1.00
00:39:32.120 I would have felt very bad and demoralized. I think it would have negatively impacted me as
00:39:37.760 a parent. I think I'm a good parent. I think that I've succeeded to a large extent. I guess in
00:39:46.660 retrospect, it's good that I didn't fall down a rabbit hole like you did. But for you, it was
00:39:54.420 good. It worked. But for me, it wouldn't necessarily have had that positive outcome
00:39:59.740 that it did with you, even digesting the same material. I didn't even think about that until
00:40:06.560 now. That's like, wow, mind blown. That's super interesting.
00:40:10.540 But again, that's not something that I would have actually probably come to had I not
00:40:15.080 come to grips with my own neurodivergence. And fun fact, I'm actually getting tested for autism
00:40:22.840 in March and I could not be more excited one way or the other. I'm very happy that we have an
00:40:30.460 opportunity to do that now where we live now the country i love it otherwise in so many ways
00:40:36.580 but oh my gosh the issues with psychiatric care where we live are just i mean it i i would i mean
00:40:46.860 i feel bad saying it's criminal because the psychiatrists who are working where we live now
00:40:52.300 are so slammed like the caseload is is crushing and there's just an absolute shortage of trained
00:41:02.040 psychiatrists therapists and psychologists like that that can't like how that like incentivize
00:41:09.820 and you incentivize that as a local government or provincial government or national government
00:41:14.840 you you make it so that people are drawn to the profession so you don't have this
00:41:19.220 like complete lack of caregivers because for me, it isn't a necessity as much as it might be for
00:41:29.820 somebody else. But we still are waiting. I submitted a formal request in April. We are
00:41:38.380 closing in on a year since I made that request. And while it's not the screaming urgency,
00:41:45.680 If I do have this diagnosis, then I actually become eligible for care, for services that could potentially help me with my interpersonal relationships, with my anxiety, with, you know, sort of resources that would help me be more professionally, let's say, adequate when it comes to people skills.
00:42:12.500 like things that would actually help me cope better as a parent like that's that's stuff
00:42:18.280 that directly impacts my life and my livelihood and that matters to me and to us and so to not
00:42:24.960 have that be good enough for the government to to look you know like lightly upon us for
00:42:35.580 is demoralizing and so it was very nice that when we're back in the states in march
00:42:39.880 We were able to set up this virtual thing. And so I'm very excited that we'll be able to,
00:42:47.120 one way or another, start to winnow down possibilities for what is actually going
00:42:53.780 on in my head. That would be very useful. Side note.
00:42:58.640 And I think the thing I always think about with this type of care is that when you're dealing
00:43:05.240 with those issues it's like doubly hard to sort through what you have to sort through to get care
00:43:12.300 like finding a good therapist is so hard and you know when you're in the midst of something
00:43:19.860 that process of like trying somebody out and if it doesn't work finding somebody else like it's
00:43:24.960 all just you know that's hard when you're like coping well and so I just think about what that
00:43:32.880 must be like when people aren't. It really makes me step back and say, I mean, what do some families
00:43:45.100 do? And I mean, I've taught kids on spectrum. I've taught kids with special needs. I've taught
00:43:52.780 adults with special needs. I've taught adults with special needs who have kids who don't have
00:43:57.920 special needs. I've taught like so many angles of this situation. And then to find myself doing
00:44:07.820 these, you know, like finding myself having done a bunch of these, you know, are you autistic
00:44:15.460 questionnaires on a lark? And then all of them basically coming back positive. It's just such
00:44:23.000 an interesting situation to find myself in but yeah moms you're right like for us it's not a
00:44:28.240 screaming urgency but what if it was what if it what it like for what if you need it and you don't
00:44:34.840 and you can't get it what if you need it quickly and you might have been able to get it but the
00:44:39.840 gears of the medical government did not turn quickly enough for you it's it just it's wild
00:44:49.940 thinking about how hard it can be for some people to actually get the medical care and the psychiatric
00:44:55.560 care that they absolutely need. And from a humanist standpoint, like, I mean, if I could
00:45:01.540 snap my fingers about anything in society, like the efficacy and availability and ease of use
00:45:11.800 of medical and psychiatric care might be at the top of the list because think about everything
00:45:20.040 that would be solved if the majority of people could address their situations that simply.
00:45:30.440 financial crime, overall well-being, productivity in the workplace, how much art could be generated
00:45:46.820 further by people who learn how to manage their demons instead of necessarily succumbing
00:45:53.060 to them because they don't have the support they need. I know it's not perfect even if
00:45:59.680 somebody has all those resources, but how many more lives could be saved and how many more
00:46:04.400 families could be enriched. Yeah. I want Star Trek to be real.
00:46:11.660 Oh, I know. And just coming back, you sort of said it, but just coming back to the topic of
00:46:18.640 parenting advice, trying to think about any one piece of advice or the only other thing I was
00:46:26.000 going to say about it is I think these sort of like one-off books about a certain thing like
00:46:32.120 sleep training or not sleep training or potty training like those can be very judgy the ones
00:46:40.500 that I worry about even more are the like whole systems of parenting you know like some people
00:46:47.380 get very involved in kind of a whole philosophy of training and I never could remember if it's
00:46:53.980 RIE or RIE parenting. But that's one of them. And again, I think it has a lot of beautiful elements
00:47:02.480 and things that can be taken from it. Well, you get sucked in, right? You're like,
00:47:08.180 this is working, so this other thing has to work. And if it doesn't work for me,
00:47:11.940 then I'm the broken person. Well, like you said, when we were looking at
00:47:15.840 preschools, when we looked at that had really lovely things about it, they fully used that
00:47:23.120 parenting style. And there were other reasons it didn't work, but I was like, we just can't
00:47:27.740 do this. Cause I, I'm sure there are a few things that we're going to want to do differently. And
00:47:31.420 I don't know if it's going to be so. And that administrator gave me a weird vibe.
00:47:35.320 Yeah. Well, like you had to do parenting courses with them. And I don't even mind that,
00:47:40.480 but just because of the system, it just felt like it could get weird if we disagreed about things.
00:47:45.480 It feels almost like, like cultish. I think if you like put all of your eggs in that basket,
00:47:51.940 But just thinking about any of them, to think about any system or any advice that could really meet the needs of every kind of family, like it probably doesn't exist.
00:48:03.260 Well, you know, it really is like they package it like a religion in that they first convince you that they are the resource that you need to follow above all others.
00:48:18.580 Yeah.
00:48:18.800 And that when you go to buy resources regarding your child, you go to them first and you give them your money. And, you know, if their lessons were more universally applicable, I would say, okay, maybe.
00:48:37.520 But they aren't – like something like parenting is so necessarily dynamic and so necessarily varied that you can't – like if you don't pick and choose and you don't try out stuff, try out different approaches, then I think that that is the sign of a parent who needs to work more.
00:49:04.360 is you have to have that skeptical lens. And you have to turn that most fiercely upon
00:49:16.620 your own behavior. And there are things that I've done, right? Most recently, here's a great
00:49:23.800 example, the validation method. Reader has a therapist who's really great. And she completely
00:49:30.700 reformed how I am handling readers' big emotional moments. Totally. And I thought that was something
00:49:41.120 in our relationship that I had totally covered my experience teaching kids for so long,
00:49:47.540 completely insulated me from needing to worry about it. I could do that thing.
00:49:53.820 But then she showed us this thing that works better. And now that's what I do.
00:49:57.580 Simple. And it's exact. And it's what I have learned that I need to do to myself. And it's
00:50:02.980 what I've told you to do with me, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's profound. And it's just the validation
00:50:09.660 method where you just validate, validate, validate, and then shut up and walk away and let
00:50:14.280 the person work through that potential solution, that unwinding of the emotional state, that
00:50:21.020 resolution, let them work it out themselves. After you validate their feelings, you give
00:50:29.740 them that space where they feel comfortable crafting their solutions, processing it on
00:50:36.260 their own, becoming more emotionally resilient as a result. And is it perfect? No, nothing
00:50:41.840 is, but it works better than what I was doing. And what I was doing was working okay, but
00:50:46.980 I had a blind spot. And the moment that she said it, I was like, I have not been skeptical enough
00:50:53.300 with my own stuff. And so I'm going to be more skeptical with that. And I tried it and it worked
00:50:58.900 better than anything that I had ever done. So there you go. Pops did the thing that he tells
00:51:05.960 other people to do more often than not, or not tells. I don't tell anybody to do it. Who am I?
00:51:11.900 but it's, it's a, it's a good nudge to be skeptical in yourself, um, more often than
00:51:19.140 anybody else. And I did that and there you go. Worked for me. Definitely works. If it works for
00:51:23.920 me, it works for anybody. Cause I'm, I, I get locked in my ways and my methods and my routines
00:51:30.720 and that can be a good thing, but it also is itself a blind spot.
00:51:41.900 I want to date with Rawls, Carty says.
00:51:44.740 Rawls? Rocker asks.
00:51:46.820 This is the love story of real-hinged couple Carty and Rocker.
00:51:50.900 Written and read by me, Nicola Dynan.
00:51:53.660 Listen to the free audiobook now.
00:51:59.340 I knew this topic was going to go long.
00:52:02.620 But it's good.
00:52:03.840 Yeah, but I have like...
00:52:05.480 I love this honesty thing.
00:52:07.240 And also, guys, the whole thing with like setting this appointment to do the autism diagnosis, the ASD diagnosis, just filling out the intake and the diagnostic questionnaires, just speaking those things, my truths out there into the world where a professional would read them.
00:52:36.360 and start to work out how to talk to me about these things felt like such a burden off of my
00:52:43.720 shoulders. So if you have even an inkling or if somebody has suggested that you should perhaps
00:52:52.960 talk to somebody about something that's bothering you, big or small, something you're having a hard
00:53:00.800 time reconciling, coping with, you suspect that you experienced a trauma that you're just now
00:53:08.240 coming to grips with existing in your past. Because sometimes that takes years just to accept
00:53:15.700 that it happened or even could have happened. You go and talk to somebody about it because it is a
00:53:23.600 very liberating thing, even though it requires facing something that is painful, stressful,
00:53:31.080 unknown, potentially completely upending to how you view yourself as a person.
00:53:37.200 Maybe requiring that you recategorize yourself, perhaps, or that you join a new demographic of
00:53:45.700 people who are that person. Now, that's okay. And talking to somebody about it is perhaps the
00:53:55.780 best thing you could ever do for yourself and your children. That's it. There you are. You were
00:54:00.200 saying about this topic going along. I just made it longer. You're welcome.
00:54:03.420 Okay. But I have a little mini five-minute second topic.
00:54:08.520 Great. Let's do it.
00:54:09.440 since we've been talking about parenting advice, I wonder if there's any nugget of parenting advice
00:54:17.540 that you feel confident sharing? Aside from what I just did?
00:54:24.600 Well, yeah. Okay. But that's more like life advice. I'm talking about parenting advice.
00:54:31.680 I've been in baby showers where everybody has to go around and give their piece of parenting
00:54:35.960 advice is there anything that you actually like have confidence in sharing yes oh how about this
00:54:42.460 when your kid has an enthusiasm to try something new do it with them oh that's so sweet yeah
00:54:52.080 it's real simple but it's profound and you might find that you like it more than your kid does and
00:55:00.500 your kid stops doing the thing and you keep going with it. Who knows? But in general,
00:55:07.640 I'm practicing saying yes more. Part of my neurodivergence involves social anxiety and
00:55:14.480 I'm just making an effort to say yes to more things. That's part of it is your kid wants
00:55:25.080 to do a new thing. Why does it just have to be for your kid? Why can't it be for you too?
00:55:29.000 I love that. The only advice I ever give, so I guess after this episode, I would add the advice
00:55:37.600 to just take what's useful from all parenting advice and leave the rest and feel comfortable
00:55:44.800 doing that. But the piece of parenting advice that I always give in those situations is that
00:55:50.340 in the first year of life, my experience was, whatever you are worried about and is
00:55:59.720 making you lose sleep about your kid, in one to two months in that first year,
00:56:06.160 everything will be different. And it could all be worse. It doesn't necessarily get better,
00:56:15.040 but it'll just be a hundred percent different yeah and and i wish somebody had told me that
00:56:25.340 because in that first year things are so intense they're moving so fast
00:56:29.560 and whatever you're worried about and slow the longest shortest time yes what whatever
00:56:35.640 you know is consuming you just feels like everything and i just wish i'd known that
00:56:42.840 And you're thinking you're doing everything wrong.
00:56:45.400 Yeah.
00:56:46.600 That whatever it is, it's just bound to change.
00:56:50.600 Yeah.
00:56:51.640 That was a zesty episode.
00:56:54.320 Yeah.
00:56:55.080 That was like taking a bite of a Reaper and then doing a shot of maple syrup.
00:56:58.960 That was a little bit of everything.
00:57:00.560 Well, no.
00:57:01.320 It's something I've always been curious about are different kind of takes on that.
00:57:06.640 Does it surprise you that I just had like a complete overconfidence in my own experience professionally?
00:57:12.840 where I was like, yeah, I got this.
00:57:15.940 I don't know.
00:57:16.600 I got this.
00:57:18.960 I truly did not know.
00:57:20.900 Like I, I did not know.
00:57:22.920 So I feel like I've learned something new about you.
00:57:26.320 Aw, shucks.
00:57:28.680 Okay, so we need to wrap it up there.
00:57:31.540 As always, we have to thank Jonathan Zalbin
00:57:34.040 and First Frame Music for the music for this podcast.
00:57:36.960 And that wraps up this episode of The Family Skeptical,
00:57:40.360 where nothing is sacred except for our kids.
00:57:59.700 We kept it to an hour.
00:58:01.700 Did you see that?
00:58:03.220 Yeah, no, that was pretty much exactly an hour.
00:58:05.300 Yeah.
00:58:06.100 It never happens.
00:58:08.140 Oh, now I want to give you a hug.
00:58:10.240 I'll come in and give you a hug while we finish it, while we wait for it to finish uploading.
00:58:14.480 Okay.
00:58:15.540 Okay. Bye.
00:58:17.880 Bye.
00:58:19.240 You want to impress them on a first date, but also play it cool.
00:58:23.520 So what do you do?
00:58:25.880 I'm Rufy Thorpe, and I wrote and read a real love story about a hinged couple that navigated exactly that.
00:58:31.980 Listen to the free audiobook now.