Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - August 17, 2025


Sunday Nice Things: Death Virgin

Topics
Breaking the Cycle of More Attainable Over Aspirational: How Kate Strickler of Naptime Kitchen Keeps It Real

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 15 minutes

Words per minute

190.24

Word count

14,339

Sentence count

780

Harmful content

Misogyny

13

sentences flagged

Toxicity

24

sentences flagged

Hate speech

15

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 Hello, all. Joey here, and welcome to Sunday Nice Things.
00:00:06.520 My friend Kristen is a woman in her 50s who's never lost anyone close to her.
00:00:11.140 So her decision to embark on the journey of becoming a death doula could at first seem like a strange one.
00:00:16.580 But when you get to know her, it does make perfect sense.
00:00:19.920 Kristen is a person who is extraordinarily curious, intensely empathetic,
00:00:24.220 and frankly, she's so well-suited to being a death doula.
00:00:28.920 She truly is. This podcast is about this journey. You're going to join Kristen as she tackles the
00:00:34.560 universal experience of death with humor, honesty, and sincere introspection. Through personal
00:00:39.320 stories, interviews, and her journey to becoming a death doula, she explores how we mourn and how
00:00:43.900 to prepare for life's final chapter. This one is for anyone curious about life, loss, and finding
00:00:49.920 laughter along the way. Hello darlings I'm Christian Vermilia and this is the very first
00:00:57.660 inaugural initial debut maiden oh I like that maiden like sounds like maiden voyage
00:01:05.320 I love a maritime reference it is the maiden episode of my podcast called Death Virgin
00:01:12.380 I'm a 56 year old American woman living in Zurich Switzerland and I am woefully unprepared for the
00:01:19.760 an inevitable phone call that's coming with the awful news that someone I love, someone very close
00:01:24.800 to me has died. I haven't lost anyone super close to me. That's why this is such a big deal. And at
00:01:30.820 my age, this is incredibly rare. And thank goodness here in the studio, there's so much wood. I wish
00:01:36.380 you could see it. It's so beautiful. I'm knocking all of the wood. So I'm making a film also called
00:01:43.080 Death Virgin and this podcast to see if I can learn to mourn, to practice before I have to do it for
00:01:47.800 real. And since death and mourning are pretty universal, and there's a lot to talk about and
00:01:52.980 explore, this podcast could and may go on forever. So strap in, strap on, strap up, strap over. I
00:02:02.220 think that's not even quite right. Strap on is definitely not right. Oh, I don't even know what
00:02:07.220 that means. It's going to be a bumpy ride, but that's, I don't really want to say it's going to
00:02:10.920 be a bumpy ride because that's, that's from all about Eve. And it's not even, it's a bumpy night.
00:02:15.540 That's not even the correct quote.
00:02:17.100 You know, the correct quote is like, fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy night.
00:02:22.840 But it's misquoted all the time.
00:02:25.000 And I think, oh, who's the name, that guy that wrote it, directed it.
00:02:30.480 I don't even know.
00:02:31.720 But anyway, so it's going to be bumpy because sometimes bumps are fun.
00:02:35.960 I have friends who, their children, when they wouldn't fall asleep, they would put them in a car and drive them on bumpy roads and that would put them to sleep.
00:02:44.340 So sometimes, but I don't want you to fall asleep during the podcast
00:02:47.520 So why don't I say it this way
00:02:49.200 I said this to one of my friend's kids the other day
00:02:52.780 Because I don't have tons and tons of clean, children-friendly jokes
00:02:56.400 But this is one
00:02:57.160 As the envelope said to the stamp
00:02:59.600 Stick with me, kid, we're going places
00:03:02.000 Oh, that's a good one, Kristen
00:03:05.880 When I was 40, I went home to celebrate this big birthday
00:03:10.440 With my close girlfriends in the U.S.
00:03:12.380 and I had just found out that I was unexpectedly pregnant
00:03:15.840 and so the party was not the party,
00:03:18.020 the party planners had planned.
00:03:20.900 Thus, but we, you know, we still had a great time
00:03:23.700 and I got to tell them in person that I was pregnant,
00:03:25.740 which was very cool.
00:03:26.600 But I went back and, you know, was not drinking
00:03:29.960 and raised a glass of water
00:03:31.980 when everyone else raised a glass of whatever.
00:03:34.460 And Julie Parker, who's one of my dearest, dearest friends,
00:03:37.880 who was not Dr. Julie Parker at the time yet,
00:03:40.540 I don't think, she is now,
00:03:42.380 She raised her glass in a toast and she said, you are no longer young. You are 40. 40 is not young. Can we please stop hearing about you dying young? Which is a fair point. I mean, I don't know that it's the best birthday toast I've ever heard, but she got her point across as she is very good at doing.
00:04:03.820 But I don't even really remember or realize that I did that, that I talked about dying young.
00:04:11.180 And I don't even know if it hit me so much at the time.
00:04:14.380 But since then, it's definitely been something I've thought about in the past however many years it's been, whatever that math is.
00:04:23.180 And I thought I was really analyzing and kind of self-reflecting and thinking, was I doing that for attention?
00:04:29.500 Did I say – and I don't remember saying like, you know, like, hi, I'm Kristen.
00:04:32.540 Nice to meet you.
00:04:33.320 I'm going to die young. I'm not sure where that came from. But that was a very, it was a strong
00:04:40.140 statement that really stuck with me. And I don't even know that I really thought I was going to
00:04:46.320 die young, or how it was that I was going to die. I do know that my entire life, I have thought
00:04:53.520 that I would die falling down the stairs or up the stairs, because I'm famous for doing this. And I
00:05:00.400 have done it my whole entire life but it's not like a premonition you know some people have
00:05:04.940 these premonitions or someone told them a seer a medium or whatever it's more like again maybe it's
00:05:12.480 a funny projecting joke um joking about these things makes it either more distant or easier
00:05:21.880 to deal with maybe I don't know but when the house I grew up in well from the time I was
00:05:26.960 like nine or 10 had carpeted like wall-to-wall carpeting and carpeting down the stairs.
00:05:32.240 And I remember, and also I've been told that people in the family would hear boom,
00:05:37.760 boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then I'm okay. And I just, I think my sense of my natural
00:05:48.080 equilibrium is off. That's what I think. I'm also, I have weak ankles. I have lots of excuses,
00:05:54.340 but I don't know. I mean, some of them are definitely true, but I think it's the
00:05:56.620 culmination of all of those things. But I've fallen down the stairs. I've broken my tailbone
00:06:01.040 several times. I fell down the stairs when I was pregnant. And I just, and then when I broke my
00:06:06.420 ankle, I was so careful and I was so unstable. So that's, but I don't think I told people maybe
00:06:12.760 necessarily about that. So, but I do like to make up theories about things in general in life. And
00:06:20.120 this was one of them. And I know this started when I was, I don't know, I guess fairly young,
00:06:25.080 maybe like a teenager, because it really kind of hit me that if you don't know anyone who's died
00:06:31.680 that's close to you, it means you're the one who's going to die. And, you know, when you talk about
00:06:38.060 theories, this, I'm sure there's some mathematical or scientific name for this type of theory. If
00:06:44.440 this, then that. X plus Y equals Z. Something like that. Algebra, trigonometry, sine, cosine.
00:06:52.320 I only know that because of the New York Times crossword puzzle. And those are words that come
00:06:56.460 up sometimes. I did not take trigonometry. Math is hard. That's what I like to say about that.
00:07:02.540 So one of the other theories that I remember coming up with, I don't know if we came up with
00:07:08.840 it together or not. It probably was me and my weird brain. But it was before we moved into the
00:07:13.300 house with the carpeted stairs. And we were living in the first farm we lived in in Chester, New
00:07:18.260 Hampshire and I was probably eight or nine and we had a trailer that was used for like you know
00:07:25.060 wood the chopping the wood and splitting the wood and then bringing it into the house for the wood
00:07:29.920 stove or whatever and it wasn't attached to a car and I remember it was so it was leaning right so
00:07:35.660 the the ball and hook joint that looks like a hip joint whatever that is is on the ground and so the
00:07:42.060 tail end of it is spacing up. I don't know if I'm describing that well. But for some reason,
00:07:48.120 I was lying in there with the boy from across the street whose last name was Malcolm.
00:07:54.100 His mother, I think, was Patricia Malcolm. I don't know what his name is. I'm calling him Tim.
00:07:58.060 But I have so few memories from my childhood that really stick. And this is one of them.
00:08:03.440 And we were just talking. And I remember that we decided that we really liked each other and that
00:08:09.100 I don't think we talked about love, but we talked about the fact that we really, you know, we really liked each other and that we should get married.
00:08:15.100 And then I think I was the one who basically, you know, broke our hopes by saying we can't get married because our dads went to college together.
00:08:26.620 And since they went to college together, that means that we're related.
00:08:30.060 And since we're related, we can't get married.
00:08:32.720 And so that's another bit of very smart logic.
00:08:36.600 So I'm still waiting for Mensa to give me a call.
00:08:39.960 And maybe based on this podcast, they will.
00:08:43.100 I mean, the funny part of that story, too, is it's not like my dad and his dad were friends in college.
00:08:47.500 I don't even think they were there at the same time.
00:08:49.900 They literally were just, we just found out, oh, they both went to, I think, Norwich University in Vermont.
00:08:56.060 So these are the kinds of, you know, what are they called?
00:09:01.000 They're theories.
00:09:01.800 That's one of my other theories.
00:09:03.040 So, so I went to a Catholic high school for two years from like 10th and 11th grade, Bishop Brady High School in Concord, New Hampshire.
00:09:14.460 Shout out to the Jolly Green Giants.
00:09:16.660 That's literally what they're called.
00:09:18.420 And on the gym, in the gym, painted on the wall was a Jolly Green Giant, like from the frozen vegetable company.
00:09:26.040 I don't know if the Jolly Green Giant is the name of the brand or if it was just the symbol, what's he called?
00:09:36.120 Mascot or the trademark or whatever.
00:09:39.280 Anyway, literally, and the, yeah, the Jolly Green Giants.
00:09:43.480 So I actually should really find out where that came from because what a story that would be.
00:09:47.100 Like who chooses the Jolly Green Giants?
00:09:48.620 The good thing is that it's not, you know, racist or sexist or, you know, like all the teams that have had to change their names because it's, you know, Native American names or whatever, which I agree with.
00:10:01.040 So other than Giants and Giants, I don't think exist.
00:10:04.860 So I think it's not going to offend anybody.
00:10:06.660 So that's good.
00:10:07.240 So anyway, shout out to the Bishop Brady High School, Jolly Green Giants.
00:10:12.360 Some of the best years of my life, two years of the best years of my life.
00:10:14.920 So during that time, Billy Joel's song, Only the Good Die Young, was always on the radio. This was like 1984, 85. I mean, I came clean at the very beginning of this by telling you exactly how old I am. So, you know, if I could go back in time and change my birth date on IMDB or on the internet, would I? I've thought about that before.
00:10:35.980 I don't think I would because you know owning it is great I just love it when people own it
00:10:41.780 like you know what get plastic surgery just own it just tell us all about it so now you know 1984
00:10:48.120 1985 or so and Anne-Marie Lozo was my best friend and Anne-Marie was this self-proclaimed bad girl
00:10:55.140 she was definitely you know and I was the perfect foil to her I was Sandra Dee like from Greece I
00:11:02.460 mean it ridiculously so uh and this this good girl sort of like um what was that movie
00:11:09.880 tracy flick is the name of the character reese witherspoon election um and matthew broderick's
00:11:18.460 in it and she was i was kind of like her you know sort of right you know i i think i would raise my
00:11:23.100 hand and i you know was very pure as the driven snow and although i wasn't interested in politics
00:11:29.460 school or otherwise. I was much more interested in waking up early and doing a different hairdo
00:11:35.440 every day. My hot rollers were my best friend. I have really thick hair. So that was really
00:11:39.940 the big hair of the eighties was I had good hair for that. And I wore business suits also. We did
00:11:47.080 have to wear skirts. Did we have to wear skirts or dresses? I don't think we did actually, but we had 0.99
00:11:51.820 to get dressed up. Oh, they got rid of uniforms the year I went there and I wanted to go there
00:11:56.520 because they had uniforms, because I was tired of waking up early and coming up with all my
00:12:01.000 outfits, even though I did love to be very put together. That's what it was. Plus, you know,
00:12:05.080 the Catholic girl uniform, which kind of brings me into that, the song again, right? So
00:12:09.720 Only the Good Die Young and these stories about Catholic, Catholic girls. So Anne-Marie used to
00:12:17.780 make me mix tapes and this anthem, Only the Good Die Young was on a tape that she named Songs for
00:12:23.820 kristin to sunbathe too i believe i know that was one of the tapes she made for me and i'm pretty
00:12:28.280 sure it's on there um but and i still have all the tapes so i will look that up and the best
00:12:34.980 best mix tapes from the 80s i mean they're precious they're so precious to me uh i mean
00:12:41.600 this is a hill that i will die on that the music from the 80s and mix tapes it's not burning a cd
00:12:47.540 of mixed music it's not making a playlist on spotify i know i sound like such a boomer
00:12:52.540 but having those tapes oh my gosh it makes me so incredibly happy and actually I found my box of
00:13:01.000 tapes in the barn at my mom's farm when we were cleaning it out before she sold it a few years
00:13:04.600 ago and um I remember that I had separated it years before and I had all the mixed tapes which
00:13:10.900 are more precious right I mean I had tons of bought tapes too but the mixed tapes um all fit
00:13:17.880 into this cowboy boot box that I had from these custom Nakona cowboy boots that Jim Carlson
00:13:25.700 surprised me with for Christmas when we lived together in Native Massachusetts. And Jim Carlson
00:13:30.240 or JC was, we were actually engaged, was a really good boyfriend, a really good guy. And I
00:13:35.940 screwed things up as I always do. So I'm really sorry about that, Jim. But I think he has a really
00:13:40.500 good life and a great family and things. So he really dodged a bullet, as they say.
00:13:47.880 So I'm cracking myself up here. So I still have these boots actually, which is amazing. And I just started wearing them again. And I wore them to this art lecture the other night. And my friend in Zurich, my friend Jacinta saw them and she was like, oh my God, those are amazing. And they look great with those jeans.
00:14:04.900 And I told her the story of them, and it's pretty cool.
00:14:09.660 I mean, they fit like slippers, even though the snake skin on them is a little bit cracked
00:14:13.760 because I did wear them a lot, mostly with little short dresses and skirts in my 20s
00:14:19.320 running around Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
00:14:21.360 And it didn't matter if it was raining or not, and even though I shouldn't have been
00:14:24.080 wearing this nice leather and snake skin, and I did not care, and I just wore them.
00:14:28.680 Because, you know, one of the things that happens is when you don't take care of precious
00:14:33.440 things, things can get damaged. And that, my friends, is meaning more than just about the
00:14:39.580 boots. I have it in bold here on my notes. When you don't take care of precious things,
00:14:45.820 they can get damaged. So the skin is split and it's beyond repair, I think, probably. But I
00:14:51.200 never tried to get them repaired either. So that's also telling of just saying they're not
00:14:57.820 repairable, reparable, reparable, they're not repairable or reparable. And I've decided that,
00:15:04.380 but I've not taken it to an expert. That is also telling and means a lot more than about the boots.
00:15:10.760 So the tapes are in this cowboy boot box, and I carried it on as a carry-on when I came back
00:15:16.880 to Switzerland. And this precious cargo, like I said, it was like I was carrying some irreplaceable
00:15:24.040 relic of the past, like a Ming vase or the last copy of the U.S. Constitution.
00:15:30.280 Ha ha ha. It was just literally, I remember, and it has a handle, like a built-in handle. And I
00:15:36.020 just remember, I know what's inside this box and no one else does. And I wonder if they think it's
00:15:40.180 boots. And no one cares. No one on the plane is thinking, what does she have in that boot box?
00:15:44.780 Everyone is so like minding their, not minding their own business. Everyone's so caught up in
00:15:49.780 what's going on with them. And that's another life lesson that it's really not all about us.
00:15:53.720 And when we think, oh, my God, they didn't return my email, this is a note to myself, they don't hate you, Kristen.
00:15:58.520 It's because they have other things going on in life.
00:16:01.220 It's, you know, so no one was really looking at my box, which had these tapes inside them.
00:16:07.600 So in this box was the tape from Anne-Marie and that song, Only the Good Die Young, which, you know, I could sing, but I don't really feel like singing.
00:16:18.280 So this is what I'm going to do.
00:16:19.440 I'm telling you this, and I'm giving you a little homework.
00:16:21.900 So if you don't know this song, which you should know this song, no matter your age, look it up, read it, listen to it.
00:16:28.340 I mean, read the lyrics.
00:16:30.040 But it's about Catholic girls, right?
00:16:35.800 And so Catholic girls, there's songs about Catholic girls.
00:16:40.460 And there's not songs about, I don't think there's songs about Protestant girls.
00:16:44.020 But this song was just sung, it was this anthem, right?
00:16:49.260 Only the good die young and everybody singing it.
00:16:51.260 And it wasn't a negative thing. 0.94
00:16:52.580 It was like this, yeah, woohoo, Catholic girls, only the good die young. 0.96
00:16:56.380 And I don't know, because Anne-Marie was a bad girl, right?
00:16:58.820 So maybe she was thinking, I'm going to live forever.
00:17:00.580 And I was thinking, I'm a good girl.
00:17:03.680 I am maybe going to die young.
00:17:05.000 And maybe that's when that all started.
00:17:07.360 That stopped at my 40th birthday when Julie said, Basta.
00:17:11.060 So, but you know, Anne-Marie was on the field hockey team and I was a football cheerleader.
00:17:16.180 I know, hard to believe.
00:17:18.040 What another amazing memory.
00:17:19.520 I mean, when you watch an American movie that has football, like on a Friday night from the 80s, the 90s, one of those all-American movies, I feel so lucky that I got to experience that tradition, those feelings.
00:17:36.140 And it was sophomore and junior year, and I was the new girl sophomore year because everyone else had come in freshman year.
00:17:43.480 And I definitely got hazed.
00:17:45.220 I got locked into a locker by the girls.
00:17:47.720 Also, I didn't see I was such a good girl.
00:17:50.540 I didn't swear.
00:17:51.160 I didn't drink.
00:17:51.780 I didn't smoke.
00:17:52.380 I didn't kiss boys.
00:17:53.480 I was the designated driver at the parties.
00:17:55.640 My parents let me go to the parties, but I was, of course, not going to drink because
00:17:58.860 I don't need to drink to have fun.
00:18:01.340 And I remember I didn't, you know, I didn't swear either.
00:18:03.320 And now, right now saying this, I remember that these girls, young women, locked the 0.99
00:18:12.000 doors of the locker room and made me say, fuck, and they wouldn't let me leave. 0.99
00:18:16.720 And I was really upset about it because I was like, I've never said that word before and I'm not going to say it for the first time here and now. 0.99
00:18:23.820 And I finally did because it was it was like hazing.
00:18:26.380 I mean, it wasn't like, you know, fraternity hazing when someone almost dies of alcohol poisoning, but it was as bad.
00:18:33.280 And then they made fun of how I said it. 0.98
00:18:35.020 They're like, fuck, apparently I said it, you know, however I said it. 0.97
00:18:38.500 So that was really and Anne-Marie wasn't there because she was playing field hockey with the athletes. 0.99
00:18:42.880 And I was, not that cheerleaders aren't athletes, but I mean, the extent was there was one girl called Marianne. 0.87
00:18:49.240 I remember she could do like a round off back handspring. 0.68
00:18:51.720 The rest of us could do cartwheels at the most and these jumps and the halftime dance that we did.
00:18:57.120 So picture American football.
00:18:59.280 Imagine the halftime, not at the Super Bowl, but other times.
00:19:02.720 And when they do a dance, usually college football, whatever.
00:19:05.240 And we had these silver shakers, silver pom poms.
00:19:07.480 And we had our little plaid skirts and these saddle shoes, which are black and white leather shoes.
00:19:13.120 Kind of they were popular, I think, like in the 50s.
00:19:15.180 And a white sweater and a big B, big green B for boobs, you know, for Bishop Brady.
00:19:21.700 And our halftime dance was to jump by the Pointer Sisters.
00:19:26.580 And I have a VHS tape of it, which actually I think has been transferred to a DVD.
00:19:33.100 So it can be seen.
00:19:34.340 And so for the right price, maybe I'll have a viewing and I'll charge people to see that.
00:19:40.000 Anyway, hilarious stuff.
00:19:41.620 I do also remember that Laura Smith was really upset because she was also a really good girl.
00:19:46.780 And she all of a sudden listened to the lyrics.
00:19:49.620 And it was like she says at the end, like, come on and jump on me, the Pointer Sisters.
00:19:53.840 And so I remember Laura being like, did you like she says jump on me.
00:19:57.960 And of course, I was horrified, too.
00:20:00.260 But it was it was it was quite a thing.
00:20:02.720 So this whole connection of Catholic girls in the Catholic school, and I was the only person at the school at the time, I think.
00:20:10.640 I think there were Mormon brothers, actually, and I was the only other person who wasn't Catholic.
00:20:15.880 And so I felt left out.
00:20:18.560 And, you know, the whole dying young thing because of being a Catholic girl, I don't think I spent too much time thinking about it. 0.77
00:20:25.960 But Catholic girls were seen as being more rebellious than we Protestant girls, maybe, except for the preacher's kids, which, again, I don't know if that's something we talk about now, but that was always like PKs.
00:20:37.780 That was something like Julie, who I spoke about, who told me to stop talking about dying young. 0.97
00:20:42.720 She was a preacher's kid, and she was like stereotypically like she was a bad girl.
00:20:46.380 She was a rebel, and I was not, as I have told you 300 times.
00:20:50.700 So it's as simple as rebelling against religion, authority.
00:20:54.240 It's a tale as old as time.
00:20:55.440 But why Catholic girls specifically? Why not the boys? Of course, I think it must have had something to do with the outfits. I mean, this was not the first or the last song about them. I think Frank Zappa had a song. I'm actually going to look here. Frank Zappa had a song about Catholic girls, called Catholic Girls. 0.98
00:21:19.240 and yeah we have Billy Joel
00:21:21.060 who Alanis Morissette had one it looks like
00:21:23.300 Red Hot Chili Peppers. I'm sure there are plenty
00:21:25.280 more. So and there's probably a
00:21:27.260 band called Catholic Girls is probably
00:21:29.100 another thing. So
00:21:30.700 I don't know. It's something
00:21:33.200 to think about. So but of
00:21:35.300 course this song was about sex
00:21:36.940 about giving it up. You know
00:21:39.380 Only the Good Die Young was the chorus
00:21:41.400 but it's like come out 1.00
00:21:43.380 Virginia don't let me wait you Catholic 1.00
00:21:45.500 girls start much too late 1.00
00:21:47.120 might as well be the one something like that um you know wait wait wait wait oh yeah but sooner
00:21:55.240 or later it comes down to fate I might as well be the one so I said I wasn't going to sing and I
00:22:00.000 just did so literally he's basically saying like um hey put out for me you Catholic girl so I was
00:22:06.500 not you know into that at all again being such a good girl I did not want to be hearing anything
00:22:11.800 about sex. So it all just really stayed with me. And I kind of, I guess I kind of like the idea of
00:22:21.260 it maybe because it was dramatic, like dying young and story. Like, remember Kristen? Do you
00:22:25.860 remember Kristen? Kristen Vermilia from high school? Oh yeah. Oh, it's so sad. She was so
00:22:30.480 young and so innocent and sweet. And what other words you might use? Virginal, pure as the driven
00:22:36.940 Snow, shattier than she should have been. I don't know what, but I don't know. Is that a thing? I'm
00:22:46.880 also going to be knocking a lot of wood because I feel like talking about these things sometimes
00:22:50.840 sort of tempts fate. And before I started working on this film and researching and talking all about
00:22:57.980 death, I wasn't much of a wood knocker, which sounds like a euphemism. And now I am, because
00:23:05.700 you know like why tempt fate right I mean it's here it's pretty much everywhere and like I said
00:23:09.140 in the studio I could knock wood for I mean you know for years my friend Sandra always talks about
00:23:17.720 pretty Peggy and pretty Peggy died when they were in high school and even now like 40 years later
00:23:23.320 or so she still tells stories about Peggy and it's it's because she died and she's not telling
00:23:29.120 the story of how she died she's telling stories about pretty Peggy which was not her name that's
00:23:35.060 what, you know, Sandra called her. But she's telling these stories about her because she was
00:23:40.220 this wonderful, beautiful, amazing person who died too young. But also, are there other people
00:23:46.020 she went to high school with that were equally pretty and lovely and wonderful? And she's not
00:23:51.140 telling stories of them because A, they weren't her friend, or B, they didn't die. I don't know.
00:23:55.760 But obviously, it's something that we, you know, we all do. So for my senior year of high school,
00:24:01.500 I went from the Catholic school to Utah and we moved there and so from the Catholics to the
00:24:08.840 Mormons but not really because we were in Park City and that's where this it was a ski town so 0.93
00:24:13.600 it's full of heathens and the Mormons were really most mostly down in Salt Lake City so 0.98
00:24:18.260 my yearbook quote my senior yearbook quote because they do this thing in America and you have your 1.00
00:24:24.000 yearbook so this is again telling live fast die young and leave a good-looking corpse which is
00:24:30.680 James Dean's favorite, favorite, not favorite. I mean, it could have been his favorite also,
00:24:35.900 his famous quote. And I don't know why I loved that. I mean, I loved him. You know, he was this
00:24:42.140 50s, handsome, sexy guy. But also, why wasn't I into somebody from the 80s? Why wasn't I into
00:24:47.900 Leif Garrett? Or maybe that was like junior high or elementary school. But I always wanted to be
00:24:54.540 into things that other people weren't into, right? If something was popular, I didn't want any part
00:24:58.180 of it. And so James Dean was this, yeah, kind of this throwback, I guess. And maybe I felt
00:25:06.120 cultured or maybe I felt superior. I don't really know. But you have to come up with a quote. And
00:25:10.580 if you look, if you know Americans or if you are American and of a certain age, or you could
00:25:14.580 probably go on the internet and look, and you looked up people's senior quotes, it is a gold
00:25:19.380 mine of fabulousness. It's, you know, some people might say like, you know, pass the talk, which
00:25:24.240 isn't, you know, toking is a verb. You know what? See how sweet and innocent I am?
00:25:31.140 When you go and you look at these earbooks, you will see that people have crazy quotes. And it
00:25:36.400 would be super telling, too, of like, you know, this is from the 70s, this is from the 80s,
00:25:40.060 from the 90s, from a movie, from, you know, like, dough from The Simpsons, or what's another quote?
00:25:46.420 Like, you know, I'm not dead yet from Monty Python, although I don't think people are going
00:25:50.280 to say that, but I'm sure someone did. So this is what I did. And the other thing that when I was
00:25:57.580 looking up, because I have this yearbook, because of course I do, because I have everything and I
00:26:00.780 probably brought it home from the bar in the same time I brought home my cassette tapes in the
00:26:06.180 Nakona cowboy boot box. And I'm looking and this I did not remember. So there's like a senior
00:26:11.820 prophecy that you say about yourself, what you think is going to be your future, what you want
00:26:16.960 it to be. And this is so embarrassing and ridiculous, but also so fabulous. Okay. My 0.97
00:26:24.460 senior prophecy was, after my third Academy Award winning film, I will become an agent in the CIA
00:26:31.100 and track down gorgeous foreigners and attend embassy galas. I mean, what part of that did I
00:26:40.640 think would really happen? Maybe I did. I don't think I was trying to be funny. I mean, I don't
00:26:44.780 know that I was funny in high school. I don't think I had the, I wasn't the funny girl back
00:26:51.020 then. I think my funny came later as a defense mechanism for things. That's interesting. It's
00:26:57.060 making me consider some things maybe I'll bring up in another episode. So that was, so now you
00:27:02.000 know even more about me. So when I started looking back, I realized I've always had this thing about
00:27:07.180 death, not, not obsession, not a fear, but this curiosity. And it wasn't morbid. I definitely
00:27:13.520 wasn't a morbid kid. But it was this curiosity, I guess, and also interest in things that were
00:27:20.220 taboo. But that wasn't on brand for a good girl. And I think that was the one kind of subversive
00:27:28.260 part about me. And I don't think I let it out or let it be shown much, if at all. So I kept all of
00:27:36.820 this stuff kind of to myself, but I definitely was interested. And I think maybe because I didn't
00:27:44.700 have a lot of experience with it also, I was more curious about it. You know, we, with grandparents
00:27:50.780 dying, I didn't go to any, well, we weren't allowed to go to funerals when we were little
00:27:55.120 and nobody really died, I guess, either. And then, I don't know, Protestant funerals are pretty 0.96
00:28:01.360 boring, I guess. And we didn't talk about death. We didn't talk about how someone died. We didn't
00:28:05.800 talk about, you know, they went to heaven, I guess, but we didn't talk about that either.
00:28:10.700 And I do remember we went to, we were Protestant and we went to this amazing church. It was like
00:28:19.820 the best church to grow up going to. And it was congregational in Pembroke, New Hampshire.
00:28:24.020 And believe it or not, I am not kidding. You can look it up. The reverend was called Reverend
00:28:29.320 Lovejoy and I can picture him right now. And there was, the kids went up and he did a little
00:28:35.160 sermon for them, like a little 10 minute thing. And you sat at the stairs and there was the,
00:28:38.580 you know, the choir and I was in the junior choir and there was like coffee and donuts
00:28:43.260 afterwards. There were coffee and donuts afterwards. I'm losing my English as my German
00:28:47.360 improves. It's not true. I am losing my English, but my German's not really getting much better.
00:28:55.500 But there was, we weren't, I mean, I was only, I was there from the time I was nine. So, but we
00:29:00.480 went to Sunday school. And there was a woman who taught Sunday school. And what I remember,
00:29:06.140 gosh, I forgot about this until this very second. I didn't hear it. It was kind of a rumor mill
00:29:12.460 thing, but it wasn't rumor. It was true. But the story kind of came through like telephone
00:29:16.260 kind of way. But our Sunday school teacher had gone out to California and she told us she was
00:29:21.800 going out for the funeral of her, I don't know, sister, brother, aunt, someone in her fairly
00:29:28.480 immediate family. And she didn't come back. And we were told, and it wasn't someone who was an
00:29:34.060 adult in the church who came back and said, we have some bad news we want to tell you.
00:29:38.900 It was, like I said, a word of mouth kind of thing. But she was driving to the funeral with
00:29:45.920 a family member. I don't know if she was driving or in the passenger seat, but they were behind
00:29:50.420 a truck carrying those huge logs. And of course, I pictured redwoods, right? Because I knew she was
00:29:56.800 in Northern California and my aunt lived in Northern California and she sent us postcards
00:30:02.000 sometimes. And that's where the great redwood trees were from. And I'm picturing these huge
00:30:06.660 trees and you've seen them on the highway and they're stacked up top of each other.
00:30:11.440 And sometimes there's signs in the back of the trucks that say, you know, don't follow too
00:30:15.120 closely. Usually that's more like gravel trucks, I suppose, because the rocks will break your
00:30:19.320 windshield but so apparently one of the either you know the the logs came loose or the truck I
00:30:28.220 don't know what happened but I pictured of course because no one explained it to me and one's
00:30:32.640 imagination goes wild that one of them just one of them became loose and they were right behind it
00:30:38.100 and it just smashed right through the car windshield and I didn't picture what happened to
00:30:44.980 I didn't picture like bodies and body parts and gore at all but I just it was like a cinematic
00:30:51.240 and maybe I thought cinematically and I didn't realize that when I was a kid but there's
00:30:55.500 you know that it was like cut you know the the the truck is squealing its brakes and
00:31:01.520 we're going back and forth or we watch a cable snap all of a sudden and this one log you know
00:31:08.260 starts slowly and then really fast and it smashes into the windshield and then you know cut and we
00:31:13.440 don't see what happened but we know what happened like cut to a second funeral like they were on
00:31:18.380 their way to a funeral oh I hadn't thought about that for a really really long time so that was
00:31:25.000 not an experience with death and again like you hear about it but I'm like I I knew that lady but
00:31:29.880 we weren't you know I knew her as miss so-and-so I don't even remember her her name so is that
00:31:37.240 someone you can get upset about because she's in your life and she's a human who lost her life
00:31:42.360 but because she's not a friend like rationalizing your level of mourning or rationalizing whether or
00:31:49.720 not you can mourn I don't think I thought about that then but I'm thinking about it now so
00:31:55.060 one of the things that I do have a lot of experience with I've realized is secondhand
00:32:02.600 death and I was looking this up too to see if it is a real term and I have found that and I'm not
00:32:07.620 coining the term but it is not a it's not something I've heard people really say a lot of
00:32:11.680 um so there's a window here in the studio and there's a guy that's just walking back and forth
00:32:19.760 and he's got a sailor hat on and oh see of course now he's not here he's kind of talking to himself
00:32:25.160 and I am definitely a uh an easily just there he is so he's got headphones some like duct tape
00:32:33.460 around the neck. He's got a backpack with blue polka dots. There's a feather in his cap,
00:32:38.540 literally. Oh, he was just starting to pick his nose. Okay, please. I may have to close the
00:32:44.560 window, but not right now. It's all fine. I'm going to focus on this. So secondhand death is
00:32:51.220 something that I have, and secondhand mourning is something I have a lot of experience with.
00:32:56.500 You know, the kind where someone you know and love loses someone they know and love.
00:33:00.180 And sometimes you knew the person of your person who died too, which adds another layer to it.
00:33:05.600 So, for example, I have a very good friend whose partner died in the south of France.
00:33:12.920 He was punched in the head by a 16-year-old while he was leaving his favorite little local watering hole.
00:33:19.760 And he never gained consciousness after that.
00:33:23.960 and I knew Fred, I'd known Fred for years and, but he wasn't, but he was Anushka's Fred and not
00:33:29.600 that she owned him, but you know, it was her partner and I knew him, but it's not like I
00:33:35.720 didn't text him or call him or meet with him without her. Do you know that, that kind of
00:33:39.180 relationship? And so I had my own feelings about Fred, but most of my feelings were all about how
00:33:47.560 Anushka is dealing with it. And especially when I hopped in a car and I drove out eight hours and
00:33:51.840 went down there and um I'd never seen a near dead body you know I'd never seen anyone in life support
00:34:01.080 and also the fact that this was all very new for me again being around death so kind of fighting
00:34:08.140 your own feelings I wanted to be able to experience what I was experiencing but I also was definitely
00:34:15.480 aware of the fact that this wasn't about me so I probably pushed it down a little bit plus I'm
00:34:20.740 really, really good at masking that stuff, I think. But supporting your friend and being there for
00:34:26.660 them when they get the bad news. I've been with people when they've gotten a phone call that
00:34:30.840 someone has died. So you jump into caretaking mode and I'm good at that. Maybe it's because
00:34:40.460 I'm so much more comfortable at being at arm's length with anything real or intimate.
00:34:45.020 it. That's probably a bit harsh on myself, but it's also kind of true. So being able to
00:34:51.680 help someone with their problem, with their challenge, with their immediate situation,
00:34:58.460 I'm also really good in a crisis. The secondhand mourning is something that I thought about when
00:35:05.640 I decided to become a death doula a year ago. And the reason I started checking that out and
00:35:14.520 learning about it and deciding to do it was as part of my film. And the film is me and my life
00:35:21.380 and trying to figure out if I can learn how to mourn and practice mourning before I get,
00:35:26.980 you know, these phone calls or notices, again, knocking the wood. But I also always need work,
00:35:36.620 always need a job, you know, as an artist, as a creative person. She'll do anything for a dollar, 0.99
00:35:41.920 as my mother said, even though that's not her accent. And not anything. So please don't send
00:35:46.740 me propositions for, you know, anything. What's the word I'm looking for? Distasteful. That's
00:35:55.740 not the right word. There's a word that's really good that I could use here. I'm going to say it's
00:36:01.640 menopause brain but distasteful that's not the word so I wanted to become I wanted to to take
00:36:12.320 this class this 40-hour training class to become a death doula because I thought that by baptism
00:36:19.100 by fire throwing myself into the deep end and offering myself to be with people who are dying
00:36:27.240 and their families, that that would absolutely teach me something, if not how to apply it to
00:36:34.720 my own life, then just being there for other people and, and doing it as an act of support
00:36:40.620 of, anyway, it just felt like it felt right on so many levels.
00:36:43.580 And like I said, as a job, it felt right, but also as part of the film, as part of my
00:36:48.680 development, as part of becoming more community, maybe engaged and also throwing myself in
00:36:54.300 thinking about oh okay so if I'm doing this I might end up being with someone who is you know
00:36:59.720 weeks or days away from dying and for me to be able to be present and helping them through that
00:37:05.680 but again that's it's not secondhand but it kind of is right because it's not my person necessarily
00:37:11.580 but maybe they become your person when you become when you get to know them you know when you're
00:37:16.560 hearing their stories and maybe collecting their stories for some sort of like vigil I mean like a
00:37:21.700 when you're hearing their stories and collecting their stories for memory books or
00:37:29.600 things that the family would have afterwards. And you do get to know them. And that's why it's
00:37:42.600 it's heavy, it's heavy stuff. And I haven't had to do that yet. But I have been reaching out and
00:37:48.400 I've had people reach out to me and I've had some little, some moments.
00:37:53.460 So I'll tell you more about all of that in a future episode, but in the meantime, look
00:38:00.440 up death doula.
00:38:01.300 It's pretty amazing and I am really loving it.
00:38:05.000 I'm also hosting this death salon, which I'll talk to you more about in a future episode
00:38:09.620 as well. 0.56
00:38:10.640 But death doula, look it up.
00:38:12.660 You might know about birth doulas and this is pretty much the same on the other end.
00:38:16.380 and doula is just a fun word to say doula doula doula doula doula it's not that easy actually
00:38:23.600 it might be fun but it's not one of those words you can say over and over again doula doula maybe
00:38:29.220 it's a good sort of warm-up mouth warm-up before you sing there were these things when I was in
00:38:35.240 the theater department in college and I wasn't officially a theater major and I wasn't even
00:38:41.720 officially a theater minor. I say I was, but I think I wasn't even officially, but I did musical
00:38:47.100 theater mostly there and there would be the real theater majors because I would have loved to have
00:38:51.940 been, but I was pretty much told by the family that that was not what was going to be paid for
00:38:57.380 in college. I'm not mad at you, mom and dad. I've gotten over it, but an English degree is equally
00:39:03.280 useless. So let's just agree upon that. So anyway, in the green room and there was something, it was
00:39:08.800 what to do to die today at minute or two till two a thing distinctly hard to say but harder still to
00:39:14.800 do would be to tattoo at a minute or two a rat a tattoo oh it's not right anyway something like 0.84
00:39:19.800 that and all like the Shakespeare people would say that and very enunciatingly kind of things
00:39:25.180 and then there was red leather yellow leather red leather yellow leather oh I love a sidebar
00:39:32.180 I love a ramble. I love a digression.
00:39:39.760 Dula.
00:39:40.840 So I'm at this age now where, I mean, I guess I've been at the age for a while, maybe 10 years or something, when people's parents are dying.
00:39:48.820 People my age, they're parents.
00:39:50.900 And of course, people have lost parents, you know, very young to tragedies, cancer, whatever.
00:39:56.540 And those are these kind of outliers, I would say.
00:39:59.680 But the age when everyone's parents are aging and we're kind of in this sandwich generation, they say.
00:40:05.740 So the people who are raising young children are children and they also their parents are becoming maybe less independent.
00:40:13.060 They have to start taking care of their parents or helping to find people, take care of them or manage them more than they ever have before.
00:40:19.480 And I would count myself amongst that sandwich generation, which, of course, I do love a sandwich.
00:40:25.900 Like what kind of sandwich?
00:40:27.020 you know there's a sandwich here in switzerland that i didn't know about i mean it's not like
00:40:32.080 it's some big invention but it's pickles and cheese with butter on bread and it is so good
00:40:41.120 i love it it's my favorite sandwich you should try it it's really really good and it's vegetarian
00:40:46.280 it's not vegan but it's vegetarian you could add meat to it if you wanted to but it's really really
00:40:50.980 good. So when people's parents start to die around you, when people start to die and you,
00:41:00.360 you're so much more aware of it, I guess. And so when I get a phone call about
00:41:03.980 so-and-so or you hear about it and then, I don't know, I think probably a lot of people do this,
00:41:09.140 but somewhere, and again, I don't know where this came from, but I don't think it's just
00:41:13.080 an American thing. I certainly have heard people here say it in Europe too, that, you know,
00:41:17.060 deaths come in threes or other things come in threes, but it's, you know, deaths.
00:41:20.980 And then you think, oh, gosh, that's a, you know, that's not true.
00:41:24.300 That's a whatever.
00:41:26.000 And then it happens, right?
00:41:27.360 There's a reason why we start to believe these things because you think, oh, gosh, there was a famous person that died.
00:41:32.340 And then my neighbor's husband died.
00:41:34.200 And then I'm just waiting for the third one.
00:41:36.300 And it's like, please don't let it be my mom or my dad or my brother's sister or like anybody in my, you know, any of my people because I'm not ready for that.
00:41:45.500 And, of course, none of us are ever ready for it.
00:41:47.440 but one could find a third third death wherever one wanted to arguably of course you could look
00:41:55.380 in the uh newspaper in the obituary section and be like well there's the third one there's you
00:41:59.600 know more than the third one and depending on where you're consuming your news or how big a
00:42:04.100 friend circle you have obviously that can happen but it's nerve-wracking it is really really
00:42:13.280 nerve-wracking the reality of that and it's totally affected me more than I could have
00:42:19.000 imagined and one of the things I realize is that with a very good number most of I have very good
00:42:28.740 friends here too but my oldest friends all being in America and their parents dying I'm missing out
00:42:35.600 on funerals and funerals help with closure so I'm told I haven't been to that many of them and it's
00:42:43.000 a thing for a reason. So these funerals happen and I haven't gone back to them. I haven't been
00:42:52.460 able to for one reason or another. But then my mind goes to, well, whose mother or father's
00:42:59.260 funeral of my friends would I fly back for? And if I fly back for one and not another,
00:43:03.620 is this an unforgivable slight? Will it affect our friendship? I mean, that's ridiculous. But
00:43:09.220 then it's not because these are the kind of things that when you get drunk with your friends
00:43:12.660 or something like that. I'd be like, you didn't come to my dad's funeral, but you came to so-and-so's.
00:43:17.040 I mean, maybe you don't have friends like that, but I can hear one or two of my friends,
00:43:20.440 I will not name you, maybe doing that. And it feels human, doesn't it? It feels raw and it feels,
00:43:25.200 you know, because we all go down to these basics. We're all like, you know, vulnerable little kids
00:43:29.460 at the end of the day. And it's a very fourth grade thing kind of do to say like, you know,
00:43:34.260 she got more tater tots on her plate than I did. And that's not fair. It's fairness, I guess,
00:43:41.320 in the end. So that's just shit that people hold on to. And that's, it's stuff that when 1.00
00:43:47.640 you're dealing with a huge loss and you're a C, you know, it's, you can, you hold on to that
00:43:52.740 kind of thing. It's something plausible and tangible and factual that you can hold on to.
00:43:58.400 Kristen doesn't love me or didn't love my mother or father, whoever, enough to fly her flat ass 0.99
00:44:02.880 over the Atlantic. Right. So, um, so I haven't been to any, and I didn't make that choice either. 1.00
00:44:08.720 This was not like a all or nothing thing. But I want to fly back for the funerals. And, you know, I mean, one of the big reasons is lack of funds. But even if I was loaded, would I fly back for every single one? And also, like, where's the hierarchy? Would it be, all right, I'm only flying back for the funerals of parents of very good friends.
00:44:32.940 And this is the list of the very good friends who fall under the very good friend list, name list, and these parents, but only the ones that I knew, the step parent if it was or I had a relationship with or I've known for a really long time.
00:44:45.840 I mean, quantifying and qualifying things is something I kind of, I do like to do. I love making a list and I love staying within the, I like giving myself boundaries and trying to stay within them and then also on purpose jumping outside the lines and seeing what happens with that.
00:45:04.620 But anyway, where does it where would it stop? Where would it begin? Right. And I would want to go to everyone's. And before I came to Switzerland, which was 17 years ago, there weren't a lot there. People weren't dying, really. I mean, obviously, people were dying in the world. But you know what I mean? Like my friend's parents. And of course, there'd been, you know, one or two. And that's the other thing, man.
00:45:28.640 I feel really badly that like my friend Gail, her dad died when we were in our 20s. And it was
00:45:36.620 awful. Like he had something wrong with his liver or kidney. I feel really badly that I remember,
00:45:41.820 but he was in the hospital for a long time and she would go down and visit him. I mean,
00:45:45.440 go see him after work. And I didn't give her the empathy or the sympathy or the, or listen or,
00:45:50.320 or give her the care that she of course really needed. And I hope she got it from someone else
00:45:55.660 because it was, I was busy doing my own thing and I, I didn't know her dad and I wasn't on my radar 0.87
00:46:00.760 and these aren't excuses, but that's really pretty shitty. And I feel badly about that. And there's,
00:46:06.420 you know, other things like that too. And you think, oh, wow, until it happens to you, sometimes
00:46:11.360 it's not, you know, you put yourself in someone else's shoes, but really until something happens
00:46:16.880 to you, you go, oh, I remember when my parents divorced and I was like 22, the end of college.
00:46:22.760 and you know you grow up and there's half the class the kids or parents are divorced and you
00:46:27.900 just kind of go yeah whatever you know deal with it and then your parents get divorced and you go
00:46:32.000 oh wait a minute but my parents are divorced now my parents are divorces this is huge will you guys
00:46:37.520 like please like this is really hard someone please feel sorry for me feel sad for me um
00:46:43.640 so even if I was loaded would I fly back and forth I do think you get a lot of closure from
00:46:48.740 a funeral. And there are definitely ones that I wish I could have been at. And there was, you know,
00:46:53.640 Julie bringing back Julie again, her dad died, and it was during the pandemic, and I couldn't fly
00:46:57.880 back. And that was definitely hard, because I'd known him since I was 20 or so. Also, the Reverend
00:47:05.920 Dick Parker, may he rest in peace. But also going back and forth, like what, you know, I've been
00:47:10.840 going back and forth to America and, you know, climate change and fossil fuels, jet fuel,
00:47:16.840 whatever it is. And what about my life here? What about my kid? What about work? What about
00:47:21.700 jet lag? So there's so many considerations to make. And I think what I'm getting to,
00:47:27.620 I'm realizing as I'm saying this, is that
00:47:30.020 people are going to hold on to different things. And so if I didn't make it to someone's
00:47:37.160 parents' funeral, they can choose to hold on to that or not, right? And they can say,
00:47:42.120 I can't believe you didn't come. And that was a big deal for them.
00:47:44.780 And if they communicate that to me, then we can have a conversation about it.
00:47:48.180 But holding on to things and then just having it be a bit of gossip or always saying like,
00:47:51.760 you know, Kristen, yeah, she's great.
00:47:54.400 I love her.
00:47:54.720 She's a very good friend.
00:47:55.540 But she didn't make the effort to come to my dad's funeral, you know, and then it just
00:47:59.900 becomes this thing that hangs.
00:48:01.280 And so like, you know, let's talk about stuff, you guys.
00:48:03.560 That's what this is all about, too. 0.99
00:48:05.140 Taboo stuff. 1.00
00:48:05.980 And let's just, you know, express ourselves, own our shit, talk about stuff. 0.98
00:48:10.100 But the first time that this really happened to me that was devastating and that I missed a funeral was for Dr. Fuhrman. 0.98
00:48:20.440 And Dr. Fuhrman was the father of my first serious boyfriend in Camden, Maine.
00:48:25.780 And he was just this classy, handsome, funny charm.
00:48:30.140 He was like a Cary Grant, like a silver-haired Cary Grant to me, right?
00:48:34.520 I just—very different family than I grew up in, and I love my family very much.
00:48:39.400 But this was sort of like the family I dreamt that I should have grown up in, right?
00:48:43.520 My family will say, too, that, you know, I was born into the – you know, I wanted to be singing and dancing on Broadway.
00:48:47.780 And I was, you know, throwing food at the cow's head at the farm, you know, singing songs from Annie, waiting for my real parents to show up, which I would say to my parents also.
00:48:58.580 And they'd be laughing inside, apparently laughing at me singing.
00:49:01.520 I found that out later on, too.
00:49:02.640 So here I am meeting this family and, you know, they had books and they listened to classical music and they – it was just different.
00:49:13.160 It was just – it felt very much like my kind of thing and a lot of stuff I was really, I think, hungry for.
00:49:20.200 And I just loved everything about the Furmans, Mrs. Furman, Barbara, and their house was wonderful.
00:49:28.860 And Jeff was a great first boyfriend too.
00:49:30.820 the whole everything. But I can't think of a time when Dr. Fuhrman and I hung out, just us.
00:49:39.280 So even he was this very important person to me in, not in theory, he was important to me.
00:49:45.520 But do you know what I mean? It's like that whole idea of saying like the hierarchy of
00:49:48.700 who's close to you. Like when I said before, I've never lost anyone close to me,
00:49:52.800 knock, knock, wood, that what does that mean? Who gets to decide what's close? Well,
00:49:57.600 I'm going to decide who is close, right? So Dr. Fuhrman was close. But I saw him once a year,
00:50:03.460 once every couple of years, even when I lived in America. He was the dad of my first boyfriend.
00:50:07.540 I'm sure some of the family thought that was weird. Like, why am I still in touch with him?
00:50:10.600 But they were formatively super important to me. And he was just, he was, again, I'm losing my
00:50:18.900 words. He just, he was this figure to me. And he fulfilled all of what I maybe kind of put on him.
00:50:26.360 maybe that was it too he was this you know father knows best kind of kind of guy that
00:50:32.520 was a tv show from way back when looked that up to you guys so
00:50:36.760 he i i had known he had he'd been sick for a while and uh jeff his his son had um you know
00:50:47.680 told me that he had pancreatic cancer and jeff reached out and told me um that he had this
00:50:54.780 cancer. And I had seen Dr. Fuhrman, which is very funny because I'm supposed to call him
00:50:58.620 Bob. But when you meet someone and you're a teenager and you're dating their son and it's
00:51:04.240 a respectful thing, it's Dr. Fuhrman. So still, and he would correct me later in years and stuff,
00:51:08.280 but he's still Dr. Fuhrman. So I had seen him the summer before and I always did when I would go up
00:51:14.960 to Maine to see my dad, I would always see them. And I had broken my ankle in several places and
00:51:19.980 it was horrible and I had really screwed up my leg and I was about to start shooting my last film
00:51:25.040 and Dr. Verma was an orthopedic surgery surgeon and we stopped by and I think I had a I don't
00:51:30.300 even know if I had a boot at the time I don't even know and I figured he'd have something to
00:51:33.680 say about it I figured he would like you know and I remember that he basically was like yeah that
00:51:38.980 looks really bad you should go see a doctor because I think I'd gone to the emergency room
00:51:44.880 but I don't know if I'd done anything more I hadn't had the operation yet or whatever but
00:51:47.780 that was very funny so there's this photo of us from that visit and it's the last one and I look
00:51:52.640 tired and old and you know no makeup what does that mean no makeup on that's a silly thing to
00:51:58.720 say but it's the truth and I'm deciding to say that and he looks great but tired and he's sitting
00:52:05.260 in his chair in his favorite chair that he sat in and I'm leaning over the side with like one
00:52:09.400 crutch in my hand for some reason and and I wish it was a better photo of us but at the same time
00:52:15.820 that's what makes it kind of beautiful because it's who we were and where we were at the moment
00:52:20.260 in the moment and that that means something too I guess so so Jeff let me know via email that
00:52:27.520 Bob had died and I sat and cried oof making me emotional now I cried and cried in the living
00:52:38.680 room by myself in Zurich and then I went to bed that's what I remember it was still light out
00:52:44.260 And I just went to bed. That's how I dealt with it. I couldn't, I didn't take a sleeping pill. I
00:52:48.860 didn't take a Xanax. I didn't, I just, I just went to bed. But the one thing that I did know
00:52:54.860 was that I was going to go back for his funeral. This funeral, this was, there was no way anyone
00:52:59.020 was keeping me away from this funeral. And life is a way of throwing you these curve balls. And
00:53:06.160 when Jeff told me that they were going to have the funeral later on in the spring,
00:53:10.740 And he said, yeah, we're thinking about this weekend or this weekend or this weekend.
00:53:13.920 And all but one of the dates I could make.
00:53:17.320 And I remember thinking, it would be so rude.
00:53:24.540 And so it's not about you, Kristen, to say, hey, yeah, this one weekend does not work for me to fly across the Atlantic. 0.99
00:53:30.760 And I've got some shit going on. 0.74
00:53:32.240 So can you guys, the rest of the family coming from all over the place who were his real family, could you guys maybe take that into consideration? 0.97
00:53:40.740 my needs, please. So I remember thinking about it and, and, and, and saying to Bob too, and saying
00:53:47.080 like, Oh, come on, please. And the universe and whatever, and influencing things with my
00:53:51.900 non-existent ESP. And of course, that's, that's the weekend. That's the weekend, the day that
00:53:58.180 they chose. And the reason I couldn't go is because this film I'd been working on for years
00:54:03.940 and years. My first big documentary film was premiering on television on the Thursday night.
00:54:09.600 we had the first screening of it like the premiere of it with an audience with all my friends and
00:54:14.740 family and anyone who could make it in this big party on the Friday night and then less excitingly
00:54:21.040 I had a big court date on the Monday so technically I guess I could have flown out at three o'clock in
00:54:29.600 the morning Friday you know it wasn't going to happen and if it was going to happen it was really
00:54:34.500 it was impossible. And that really killed me. But at the same time, sometimes when it's
00:54:40.320 totally impossible and not just half impossible, it's easier, right? So if it had been that I just
00:54:48.400 had the divorce on Monday and I had people visiting me for the weekend or something,
00:54:52.460 that's kind of changeable, right? You could struggle with that. But there was really no way
00:54:56.840 I could go. And that was, you know, devastating. And even though I had this huge, amazing life
00:55:03.980 accomplishment in this film that I'd worked so hard on and I was really proud of myself and
00:55:07.960 it was screening, I was thinking about the fact that I wasn't going to be able to make it to this
00:55:12.340 funeral. And to be honest, of course, it was foreclosure and it was being there, but then it
00:55:17.960 was also, yeah, being part of the group, the family, seeing everyone reconnecting. I wanted
00:55:24.800 all of it. I needed all of it, I thought. So on that Saturday of when the funeral was supposed to
00:55:32.040 I was walking around the Berkeley Platz flea market, which is something I do often. It's one
00:55:40.100 of my happy places going to flea markets. And as I wandered, I walked by a stack of records
00:55:45.500 that was at a stand that I'd bought things from before from this lady. And I'd never seen her
00:55:50.420 have records before. And so it was, you know, leaned on its side. It wasn't face up. It was,
00:55:56.220 yeah like leaned against the wall kind of thing I'm not describing that well but
00:56:01.220 I look over there and the record on the top and the front was Mussorgsky's pictures at an
00:56:09.080 exhibition and this is a piece of music the piece of music that Dr. Fuhrman had introduced me to
00:56:15.540 they listened to classical music and you know they always had it on in the house and so I
00:56:21.520 learned about that really from them but I don't remember being really into I know he would you
00:56:27.360 know talk I would ask him a question about a piece of music or something and I had no clue but he
00:56:33.320 would tell me about a composer or a piece and I would listen and then promptly forget you know
00:56:37.260 I mean I was interested but I was more interested in the cure the smiths or the psychedelic furs or
00:56:43.640 the clash or the b-52s you know all that good stuff from the 80s again dying on that hill
00:56:48.700 but pictures at an exhibition was different I remembered it and I loved it and we we talked
00:56:55.120 a little bit about it the promenade the piece of music that that strings all of the different
00:56:59.660 stories together and I could really feel that it was a story and that's why I think now looking
00:57:07.480 back that I really related to it because it was a story and I think I was a story
00:57:11.620 lover, a story gatherer, a storyteller back then. And I didn't maybe realize it for many,
00:57:19.740 many years. But I think that's maybe why I really related to that piece of music. So
00:57:24.320 I actually loved it so much that I went to Rock Bottom Records in Portsmouth, New Hampshire,
00:57:29.360 which is where I was living when I was going to school at the University of New Hampshire,
00:57:33.280 awesome city. And this was an amazing record store that sadly is not there anymore.
00:57:36.860 And I ordered, I ordered pictures at an exhibition on a cassette tape so that I could play it in my car, in my British Racing Green 240DL Volvo.
00:57:51.780 And I'm not sure what year it was.
00:57:53.240 I think it was like in 1980, I think.
00:57:55.400 Oh, that was a great car.
00:57:56.400 So much fun to drive.
00:57:57.360 and I was just thinking too that you know if you're a real like classical music person you
00:58:03.740 would say well which recording you know this orchestra that person the trio that whatever I
00:58:08.780 am I have no clue about that stuff and so I'm sure if I listened to three different recordings
00:58:14.240 one in a row I would be able to say oh this sounds a little different it's like drinking wine I like
00:58:19.220 wine I know some wines that I like but unless I drink them all in a row I'm not going to be very
00:58:25.200 good at being able to, you know, tell you the difference and remember. So I don't know which
00:58:31.440 recording it was, but it was pictures at an exhibition. And people would get in the car,
00:58:36.820 I remember, and I had this, you know, these tape boxes, right? It was like they'd fit into it and
00:58:40.560 you zipped it and had a little like a wrist handle and it would sit in the back seat of your car or
00:58:44.860 on the floor behind the driver's seat. And people would get in to, you know, say like, oh, what
00:58:48.740 should we play? And they'd look and all the other music made sense, you know, my mixtapes and
00:58:53.780 my, you know, purchased tapes, like in excess. Oh, that was a really good one. The first three
00:59:00.060 in excess albums and probably like, um, outlandos to more little police in there. And then I had
00:59:06.680 this piece of classical music and I remember people gave me shit about it. They were like, 0.98
00:59:10.320 what is this and why? And I would try and make them listen to it. I mean, I would try and
00:59:13.680 introduce them to it. And it was, it never, you know, the conversion never happened. People,
00:59:18.200 those people with no class and no taste they never never did it so
00:59:21.920 so when I saw this record I took it as a sign from Bob from Dr. Fuhrman and I took it as a sign
00:59:34.860 that it was okay that I wasn't there or that he was telling me that he knew I wanted to be there
00:59:41.420 you know it was a sign from God or the universe or you know whatever and I believe in things like
00:59:51.380 that I'm not I'm pretty skeptical skeptical skeptical skeptical I'm skeptical about things
00:59:59.960 unless I experience them but then when someone I know and trust experiences something I'll take
01:00:06.260 their word for it you know but I'm open-minded completely so but this was so like that was it
01:00:13.640 you know and it wasn't like if there was just a classical music record on the thing that I would
01:00:17.840 have said oh that's Bob that means you know Dr. Fuhrman says it's okay it was pictures at an
01:00:22.140 exhibition I mean who knows that other than you classical music geek people um fabulous wonderful
01:00:29.520 people. And so that's how I took it as this sign. I mean, in my cinematic movie life, I, that I
01:00:37.860 like to create, I took it home. I took the record home. I poured myself a glass of McAllen 12 neat,
01:00:45.560 of course. And I took the record out of the jacket and I lovingly cleaned it and placed the needle
01:00:50.940 on the first track and then sat down in my favorite 75 Frank white Italian leather chair that I also
01:00:58.200 got at a secondhand store, which is amazing. And I listened. And maybe even I had like headphones
01:01:04.820 on the kind that go on over your ears, that real, see, we say cinephile. What do you say for like
01:01:10.120 a music file, like a vinyl file? Do you know what I'm saying? Like file P-H-I-L-E. What is that
01:01:14.840 called? A person who loves recorded music on vinyl and who sits there, we see them in movies,
01:01:19.280 we see people and they just listen to their record. A lot of times their record player's on
01:01:22.980 the floor and their records are kind of put all over the place. And they're sitting there maybe
01:01:27.560 with like one leg bent, one leg straight out, and they're just listening. And they're singularly
01:01:34.620 focused. They're not multitasking. And that's what I pictured that in my mind's eye I would do.
01:01:39.940 But reality, I brought it home and put it on the top of the pile of my records next to my ancient
01:01:44.440 turntable, and it stayed there for weeks and weeks and maybe even longer. I don't even remember
01:01:49.180 specifically when I did play it. I didn't make it a thing. It wasn't cinematic at all. It was just
01:01:54.360 real life, you know, between making dinner and not making my bed and, you know, doing whatever else
01:02:01.800 I need to do. But I did, and I have since then. And I would love to say that all of this gave me
01:02:10.800 closure, that this finding this record and seeing this sign and having this sign gave me closure,
01:02:16.000 but it really didn't. You know, finding the record was amazing. And I think, you know,
01:02:20.480 thank whatever, right? Whoever, again, universe, God, Dr. Furman, um, for that moment, but I still
01:02:27.560 don't know what to do with all the feelings that I have. And I do wonder if you can get closure,
01:02:39.240 if you, I mean, of course you can get closure without going to a funeral. There's plenty of
01:02:42.420 people who do, but, and would I have gotten closure if I'd gone to the funeral? And what
01:02:47.260 is closure they say about it in relationships too and I remember someone wrote something you know
01:02:52.740 like a social media thing but a friend of mine and I had talked about closure and getting closure
01:02:57.520 and that people owe you closure like in a relationship like you know that person just
01:03:01.140 ghosted me or left and they I need to speak to them and I need to get closure and then someone
01:03:05.820 had written this thing it's nobody owes you closure like you need to give that to yourself
01:03:09.580 and I was like oh that's a really really good point I think I agree with that it sounds like
01:03:14.400 a healthy kind of way of looking at things. Nobody owes you closure. So I need to figure
01:03:18.980 out what closure is for me. And so the next time I went to Maine, I went to his grave and I brought
01:03:27.020 a bottle of whiskey and I sat there and talked to him. And I poured, I poured a little whiskey
01:03:37.340 like on the stone. And I remember thinking, this is not a classy thing to do. Like Dr. Furman was
01:03:43.460 a classy guy, but I wanted to share it with him because as an adult, the past, I don't know,
01:03:48.260 10 years or so when I would see him, like I would have dinner there, you know, when I was home
01:03:51.980 sometimes. And he would say, would you like a glass of scotch, which is in America, wet, you know,
01:03:57.740 scotch whiskey. And I would say, yeah, I would love that. And we would have a glass of scotch
01:04:02.060 before dinner together out on the porch. And it was just this lovely little ritual grownup
01:04:07.000 thing that we did. And, um, so I poured a little and I mean, I don't know how else to give it to
01:04:14.160 him. But then I felt too, like, you know, is this such a hillbilly thing to do? I mean,
01:04:19.420 it wasn't butt out of a can, but, and I do that when I, when I go back, um, I always go back and,
01:04:25.280 and then I remember to, then I think like, if you have an open bottle and open container of
01:04:30.540 alcohol in your car, it's illegal. Of course. Right. Because I could be drinking from it.
01:04:35.260 And so I had stopped by the liquor store and I got this really nice bottle the first time I did it. And then I think the second time, maybe I found like a smaller, maybe I planned ahead and I had like a nice, not night, but an airplane bottle or something. But then the next time I was like, shit, I don't, I don't have anything and I'm not going to pour water. And I like a ritual. And it's not like I'm going to beat myself up wholly about it. And it wasn't like I wasn't going to say hello to him anyway.
01:04:59.080 But so I stopped by this place called the Stop and Go, which is this gas station little store that's right there at the intersection as you come into Camden, this flashing red light, the traffic coming off of Route 1 and going into the downtown.
01:05:14.620 And I went in there thinking, they must have, maybe they have a little nip, a little something.
01:05:19.700 And the people who were there, this man and woman, I said, oh, and it was cheap, cheap.
01:05:24.920 Like, I don't even know.
01:05:25.820 It was some, I'm not even going to tell you.
01:05:27.460 I mean, I, what's a really cheap brand of whiskey that they would have?
01:05:31.740 I mean, I guess it could be like Johnny Walker or I don't know, but it was not the scotch
01:05:37.640 whiskey. 1.00
01:05:37.980 It was not single malt stuff, but you know, beggars can't be choosers.
01:05:40.800 And so it was right in a plastic bottle and oversharing as I sometimes do, I either speak
01:05:46.160 not at all or too much, I think.
01:05:47.680 And I said, yeah, hey.
01:05:49.240 And then I said, oh gosh, you know, I'm looking for this and I screwed this up and it's not
01:05:53.260 really what I wanted, but better than nothing, et cetera.
01:05:55.420 And I said, well, have you guys been here a long time?
01:05:58.200 And then we're looking at each other.
01:05:59.200 And she said, you look familiar.
01:06:00.500 And I said, yeah, you guys look familiar too.
01:06:02.640 And I said, do you know, did you know Dr. Fuhrman?
01:06:04.460 And they said, oh yeah, sure, of course.
01:06:05.960 And then I was talking about that.
01:06:07.660 And they said, yeah, like we recognize you from the 80s.
01:06:10.140 And I said, well, this is for Dr. Fuhrman
01:06:11.740 because he died and I'm going to go drink whiskey with him.
01:06:13.600 And I kind of told the story and they laughed
01:06:15.080 and they said he would be fine with that, I'm sure.
01:06:18.120 So that's what I did and that's what I do.
01:06:20.840 And, um, I look forward to next time doing that too. And I guess that's sort of given me closure, but I don't know, maybe it's a, maybe it's a work in progress thing. Closure is not a final thing. Maybe closure is a process.
01:06:36.860 So I feel like this is kind of the end of my story of sharing with you this journey that I've been on and where I'm going with it.
01:06:51.320 And I'm really, really excited about the podcast and where it's going.
01:06:54.800 And I've got a million topics and things to talk about.
01:06:57.560 And moving forward, I'm going to kind of choose words and topics and ideas and ramble about those.
01:07:07.260 And they'll all have something to do with death at some point.
01:07:10.340 And, of course, there will be ramblings and digressions because I am the queen of digression, as you have just experienced. 0.84
01:07:16.840 so one of my best friends another very best girlfriend Heather I just got a call that her
01:07:24.880 mom died and this was like just two days ago three days ago I got a text from her ex-husband
01:07:32.040 my friend's ex-husband saying and they call me kitten or kitty or kiki in America a lot of people
01:07:37.020 do and he said kitten just so you know Heather's mom died and the funeral's tomorrow and so I with
01:07:44.340 the time change and stuff, I picked up the phone to call Heather the next day, and it was going to
01:07:47.860 be the day of the funeral, which was Memorial Day in America, which is kind of perfect. 1.00
01:07:52.900 And her mom was called Doris, and she was a Vermont Yankee farmer woman, tough as nails,
01:08:00.180 wise, wiseacre, wise Weisenheimer. She was a sassy, sassy one. And I remember I used to think 1.00
01:08:06.660 that she didn't really like me, but then at some point in time, we shared a laugh about something,
01:08:10.180 And then I just realized, oh, we can just take the piss, as the British would say, and just really kind of, you know, wisecracking or just like saying these kind of sassy, sassy things to each other.
01:08:23.100 So Heather and I were talking and I asked how she was.
01:08:27.140 And she said, well, her brother and her niece were out making the pine box for Doris.
01:08:32.220 And I thought, wow, that's one way of maybe getting closure.
01:08:36.240 Like how amazing is that?
01:08:37.700 I don't know anyone else who's done that.
01:08:38.980 And how beautiful is that?
01:08:40.180 And they talked about that before and just picturing this father and daughter making this pine box for the body of their mother and grandmother in Vermont in this, you know, wood shop.
01:08:51.180 And again, cinematic, thinking of selfishly and inappropriately how that would look.
01:08:58.560 And that Heather said that she was going to be dressing her mother's body with a cousin that was coming in. 0.92
01:09:04.920 And me being the jerk that I am said, I hope you're putting in her fancy dress because Doris loved her fancy dresses and we laughed about, you know, blue eye shadow and all these things because she was, you know, a farmer. 0.75
01:09:16.580 And as you can imagine, dresses and makeup were not things that were things in her life, things she wore. 0.97
01:09:23.380 and Heather seemed okay having just lost her mother
01:09:30.980 but knowing she was going
01:09:32.620 and she said she's right here next to me
01:09:34.100 and she's in the house and she's lying in her bed
01:09:36.580 and that's also really beautiful too
01:09:39.520 and we don't do that so much anymore do we?
01:09:41.860 We send the body off and it goes to the funeral home
01:09:43.880 and they pump it full of chemicals
01:09:45.300 and formaldehyde I think
01:09:48.380 and then we see the body with makeup on it
01:09:51.500 in a nice suit or dress in the coffin or not.
01:09:56.820 And this just felt so beautiful and real to me.
01:10:00.600 And I remember thinking, too, that I can't make it to the funeral
01:10:06.400 because she didn't tell me about it.
01:10:08.100 She didn't give me enough time.
01:10:09.660 And I didn't say that to her because that would be very, very selfish,
01:10:12.160 but I was laughing about that.
01:10:14.360 But I was thinking that I kind of have something about picturing what they're doing
01:10:19.780 and picturing them honoring her in this way and picturing the Vermont farmhouse and the farmhouse
01:10:26.780 is Doris and Doris is the farmhouse and the land and the garden and I feel okay with it I feel I
01:10:33.260 feel good about it and we happen to have a death salon scheduled for that night just a few days
01:10:39.680 ago and this group of strangers that came together some well not all strangers but some people who
01:10:45.540 had been there before and some people I know we did a little ritual and we said a little
01:10:49.600 a little bit to Doris to send her off um into into what into where um but yeah it's nice to
01:11:03.180 think about that isn't it as Heather and I were talking I of course was trying to make her laugh
01:11:09.720 but also holding space which has become this kind of buzzword but it's something I've learned a lot
01:11:15.060 about doing the death doula training and but just kind of being quiet and saying how are you and
01:11:21.020 then being quiet and that's super important and when you can't physically be there and I can't
01:11:26.420 just put my arm around her and sit with her and say this sucks or whatever um to be able to do
01:11:31.320 that but you know um as much as I'm annoyed with a lot of things about myself I do realize that 0.53
01:11:36.860 trying to make people laugh or just being a wise ass is so inherently intertwined into every fiber
01:11:44.720 of my being that I can't not do it. And I also know that Heather is a really great audience and
01:11:50.660 I can make her laugh very easily. And she thinks she's one of my, like, you know, she would be in
01:11:55.620 the front of my, if I ever did stand up and she would laugh at anything, you know, she would,
01:11:59.900 I could just say, um, good evening. And she would laugh. And so I asked her, I said, oh,
01:12:08.040 I have a knock, knock joke for you. I said, do you want to hear a joke? Do you want to hear a
01:12:14.700 knock-knock joke. Is this appropriate? Is this not appropriate? And she was like, oh my God,
01:12:18.260 you know, and I know that it helped her. And I know that, and I didn't feel like, oh, yay me.
01:12:22.800 I, you know, this has helped her and I'm doing this to help her. It helped me too. But I guess
01:12:27.540 I was using the tools I had or who I naturally was to, I don't know, connect with her. I don't
01:12:32.440 know that a knock-knock joke was really necessarily what I needed to do because that's not really our
01:12:36.380 thing, but it just came to me. And the reason this knock-knock joke came to me is because
01:12:41.420 Heather is, um, they're of Scottish descent and she's gone to Scotland and her, they had,
01:12:51.160 I don't, you know, there's a Scottish connection and I know it's important. And so now I need to
01:12:56.720 tell you what the joke is. And now everyone's going to steal this joke, which you can, because
01:13:00.100 it's really good. And the first time it was told to me was by another one of my dearest, dearest,
01:13:04.180 dearest friends, Jeannie, who lives in San Francisco. And it was told to her by a five or
01:13:09.240 six-year-old, her like favorite kid in the world. And just so you know, this little kid has a tiny
01:13:14.140 bit of a lisp. Okay. So here's, I'm going to say it like it was told to me. So another game of
01:13:20.600 telephone. So I say, knock, knock. And then you say, who's there? And I say, dishes. And then you
01:13:28.460 say, dishes who? And then you say, dishes, Sean Connery, open the door. And I guess without the
01:13:37.360 lisp, it would be, this is Sean Connery, open the door. Anyway, not good at that impression,
01:13:43.420 but I love a stupid joke. I love a good joke. And so she didn't laugh as much as she normally 0.99
01:13:48.820 does. And I said, I'm sorry, was that not a good enough joke for you?
01:13:54.740 And she said, no, I'm laughing on the inside. Oh my gosh. And it was just so funny. And then
01:13:59.140 I was thinking about, thinking about music and thinking about, you know, if they were going to
01:14:04.640 be playing music or not. And I was thinking, and I said to her like, you know, man, you people,
01:14:12.100 you Vermonters, it's probably country music, right? Like not that new country, but because
01:14:17.680 I mean, I can't, I can't, but I just thought I want to, I want to listen to some music
01:14:22.820 and think about Doris. And, and I thought, yeah, old time, old time country, definitely.
01:14:29.660 And I didn't bring it up to Heather after we were rambling about jokes and everything else, but when I went home, as I was going home and I put my earphones in, I was thinking and I thought, Patsy Cline, a little walk-in after midnight, that feels like Doris, a little Johnny Cash after that.
01:14:54.020 and that music and that connection
01:14:58.040 maybe that's really the key
01:14:59.760 for the closure, for part of the closure
01:15:02.580 and it really, really worked
01:15:05.500 and it made me smile so much
01:15:07.580 thank you so much for listening
01:15:12.640 and being here with me for this
01:15:14.740 maiden voyage of
01:15:16.980 the Death Virgin podcast
01:15:19.500 stay tuned for more soon