Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Sunday Nice Things： How to be Fine

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00:00:36.760 Hello all. Welcome to Sunday Nice Things. I'm recording this from my porch right now.

00:00:45.760 So you might hear birds. You might hear the kids yelling in the in the sad little dog pool that I've turned into a baby pool on the side of the house.

00:00:55.720 and and breeze and just just niceness, just niceness, because I'm trying to relax a little

00:01:02.160 bit. Today I have a new show for you to listen to. It's called How to Be Fine. How to be fine

00:01:08.820 with friends. It's half advice show, half reality show, where you join podcast besties Kristen

00:01:15.700 Meisner and Jolenta Greenberg as they seek advice from experts and then try to put that advice to

00:01:20.840 the test. I love it when people try out expert advice for me. I do. Because you know what? I'm

00:01:26.880 never going to do it. I'm not. And this season, they're taking on something that I talk about a

00:01:30.920 lot. The loneliness epidemic and the struggles of friendship. From making new friends to breaking

00:01:37.880 up with BFFs. Something we've all done and that we don't talk about. You're going to love these

00:01:43.020 ladies. I'm excited for you to give it a listen. Hey, Kristen. Yeah, Jolenta. It's not you. It's 1.00

00:01:50.520 me. It's what? I just think we're drifting apart. We literally are on the phone with each other

00:01:57.920 three times a week. What are you talking about? We're moving too fast. Um, hold on. Are you using

00:02:04.540 breakup lines on me? What is going on? Yes, I am. Classic breakup lines. Oh, my God. You're doing

00:02:11.060 this because this week we're trying on advice on friend breakups, right? Yep. You know it because

00:02:18.440 I'm Jalanta Greenberg.

00:02:20.080 And I'm Kristen Meinzer.

00:02:22.000 And this is How to Be Fine with Friends.

00:02:31.880 On each episode of How to Be Fine with Friends, we dive into a different aspect of friendship or loneliness.

00:02:39.160 In some episodes, we're going to talk with an expert, and we're going to learn all about how a specific issue affects our friendships and well-being.

00:02:47.820 And in alternate episodes like this one, we'll take the advice from our experts out into the world, record ourselves enlisting that advice, and report back to you with the results, which are sometimes cringy, but maybe not.

00:03:01.160 Last week, we interviewed Chelsea Devontes, author of I Shouldn't Be Telling You This, But I'm Going To Anyway.

00:03:07.320 And she talked with us about the taboo but super common experience of best friend breakups.

00:03:14.000 Along the way, she gave us several tips for coping with and thinking about these kinds of breakups.

00:03:19.780 They included...

00:03:21.140 Tip 1. Before a breakup, consider whether the friendship is or isn't healthy for you by mapping it onto a romance.

00:03:29.740 Ask yourself, if I was dating this person, would I allow this behavior?

00:03:33.740 Also ask yourself, what am I giving to this friendship? Am I being a good friend?

00:03:38.220 along the way, trust your gut. You don't have to know the reason why you feel bad after you

00:03:43.560 hang out with someone. You just have to trust the feeling you're having.

00:03:47.420 Tip two, in the midst of the breakup, don't be afraid of opening up and saying,

00:03:52.120 I'm going through a friend breakup. Statistically, 70% of women in the room 0.99

00:03:56.180 will have been through it as well, and they will reach out and hold your hand.

00:04:00.300 Tip three, in the aftermath of a breakup, open up space for other relationships in your life,

00:04:06.500 especially those that didn't have room to breathe because you were putting so much into this other

00:04:11.520 person. Immediately immerse yourself in a community to remind yourself that community does

00:04:17.280 exist, whether it's a book club, a Patreon community, or something else. Tip four, moving

00:04:23.500 forward, try to look objectively at what contributed to the breakup. Did you fall into a dynamic of

00:04:29.220 codependency? Did you inadvertently play a certain character or role that didn't serve you in the

00:04:34.460 end. Were there boundaries that weren't being acknowledged on either of your parts? Consider

00:04:39.100 seeking therapy to help with this, writing down the events, or both. That's what Chelsea Devontas

00:04:44.680 recommended, so that's what we each tried. All right, Chalenta, let's get to it. How did you

00:04:55.140 start off living by Chelsea Devontas' BFF breakup tips? Well, I started out by trying the first tip

00:05:02.620 she gave us. And that's what to do as you're considering a breakup. Right. Yeah. And she

00:05:09.160 recommended we take inventory of the relationship and question like it's a romantic partnership to

00:05:15.300 see if it's healthy and if it's if it's serving us well. So that's what I did. And there were two

00:05:21.220 friendships I wanted to kind of assess. Here I am going over friendship number one. If I was dating

00:05:27.560 this person, would I allow this behavior? I mean, I think so. Yes. Like things got a little dicey

00:05:34.180 between us because we're both going through a really hard time. I was becoming estranged from

00:05:39.740 my dad. She was losing her dad very tragically. And I was a little insensitive about comparing

00:05:47.360 death and estrangement. She was bothered by this. Let me know in a way that sort of hurt my feelings.

00:05:53.600 But like it's because we were both suffering and sort of like stumbling through hard times and when life gets hard, sometimes we mess up and we are accidentally insensitive.

00:06:05.120 But like I don't think I dump someone because of this, you know, I think we're I think we're getting closer again.

00:06:13.280 I like text her when something reminds me of her and we're in touch more than we have been in a while.

00:06:20.140 And I think that little rough patch we hit helped me understand her more and what she needs from me in the long run.

00:06:31.420 Oh, Jolenta, it sounds like you are really trying hard here to see everyone's side of the experience, what everyone was going through at the time.

00:06:40.040 I really think it's laudable the way you're trying to approach all of this.

00:06:43.240 Oh, my gosh. Thank you. I mean, I'm just following Chelsea's advice, but it was nice to sort of like stop and actually think about what we've gone through, how it's affected us, how I'm showing up now, like if I'm doing better. And like, I think like signs are positive in that relationship.

00:07:00.980 Yeah, it sounds like at the end of it, you came to a nice conclusion about that friend. And I hope things continue to go well there.

00:07:08.700 Same, same.

00:07:09.500 But what about the other friend? You said there are two friends you've been considering maybe whether or not a breakup is warranted. What's the deal with the other one?

00:07:17.960 This one, this one was a little bit spicier. Here, let's listen to that. 1.00

00:07:21.320 If I was dating this person, would I allow this behavior? I mean, for this friend, there's no specific behavior that's happening. But if I were to talk about it in relationship terms, like romantic relationship, I'd say we're drifting apart.

00:07:36.740 like we don't see eye to eye on certain important things anymore. Like weirdly, things have been

00:07:42.420 awkward with them since my parents divorced. And like, am I being a good friend? Probably not. I'm

00:07:49.420 being a very absent friend. I'm not giving much. And I'm not giving much because I know that what

00:07:54.280 I can give isn't enough or like what they want right now. And like, I think it's okay that we're

00:08:01.640 both sort of tending to ourselves and our own needs. And like, I'm kind of okay letting this

00:08:07.380 get a little distant, at least for now. That second friendship sounds very different from

00:08:14.720 the first one. It sounds like you're actually already kind of going in different directions.

00:08:20.020 Yeah. You know, not the face-to-face breakup talk so much as kind of drifting apart, if that makes

00:08:25.980 sense. Yeah. If we're to talk about it in terms of like dating, I'd call it like one of those slow

00:08:30.680 fade out, you know, yeah, where you kind of only realize after the fact we like, wait, did we we

00:08:36.020 sort of stop seeing each other, didn't we? But I have to say, taking the time to like talk this

00:08:42.380 out with myself helped me realize that I'm like, pretty okay with where the relationship is. And I

00:08:48.300 think I've maybe been a little bit bitter about it previously. But remembering that, you know,

00:08:53.160 I'm one half of why it faded out, definitely helped put it in perspective.

00:08:57.260 Good. I'm glad that helped you make peace with that. And realizing you're half of the relationship, I think that that is something so important in any kind of relationship, a friendship, a romantic relationship, a family relationship. What is working? What is not? It's never just one person, right?

00:09:14.720 It's not just happening to you. It's like a dynamic between two people.

00:09:18.620 Yes, exactly. Exactly. And what did you try after that?

00:09:22.800 After that, I moved on to the fourth tip that we got from Chelsea.

00:09:27.260 And that's looking at how you contributed to the breakup.

00:09:30.720 Yes, exactly.

00:09:32.020 So I got to thinking about all the friendship breakups I've been a part of.

00:09:36.160 And like, there are a couple.

00:09:37.780 And I tried to really look at the role that I played.

00:09:40.460 And as I mulled things over, I began to suspect something about myself.

00:09:43.460 So I went to Brad to get his perspective, since he's observed a lot of these friendships play out.

00:09:49.320 Brad.

00:09:50.180 Yeah.

00:09:51.140 Question for you.

00:09:52.080 Yeah.

00:09:52.260 Do you think that in my friendships, I have a tendency to get a little codependent?

00:10:00.780 Yeah.

00:10:02.120 Oh, really?

00:10:03.700 What do you mean?

00:10:04.920 Of course you do.

00:10:06.180 Yeah, I do.

00:10:07.080 I just want, I just want.

00:10:08.400 You like practically like we're living like a married couple with like your old friend Erica.

00:10:14.100 Okay, fine.

00:10:15.460 Yes.

00:10:16.000 Like you guys got groceries and like.

00:10:18.640 Cooked all our meals together.

00:10:20.020 And we spent all your time together.

00:10:21.100 And I always was like, wanted to do what she wanted to do.

00:10:24.320 Yes.

00:10:25.320 I just want to do.

00:10:26.240 You and I started going out.

00:10:27.460 You got like, you had to have a talk with her.

00:10:29.580 Yeah.

00:10:29.960 I just want everyone to like me. 0.89

00:10:32.100 So I'll do what you want to do until I have my own shit I want to do. 0.94

00:10:35.080 And then that makes you disappointed in me. 0.98

00:10:38.320 Cool.

00:10:39.060 Healthy.

00:10:40.060 Healthy codependent friendships.

00:10:42.500 Yeah.

00:10:45.500 Oh, Brad.

00:10:46.780 Telling the hard truths.

00:10:48.380 Yep.

00:10:48.680 I feel like I've been given that talking to myself over the years. A lot of listeners probably have been there as well, I'm guessing.

00:10:54.720 Yeah, I think I think especially women, because we're raised to, you know, comfort and perhaps please others.

00:11:03.060 I think it's an easy dynamic to fall into of just like, sure, I'll do what you want to do.

00:11:08.180 Sure, I'm interested in what you're interested in. Let's do it.

00:11:11.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I do think that happens to a lot of us.

00:11:15.900 Yeah. So moving forward, I'll try to be a little more aware of that, especially because

00:11:20.820 my suspicion has been confirmed by a third party.

00:11:25.320 And what did you do after that?

00:11:27.240 So after that, I decided I was going to open up some space for other relationships.

00:11:33.020 Ah, yes. That's tip number three from Chelsea.

00:11:35.820 And I decided for this, I would text a kind of like newish friend.

00:11:41.960 Ooh, yay, new friend. Love it.

00:11:44.780 So don't judge me, please. But I have a friend that I text with just once in a while about like TV and current events. And that friend might be my old therapist, Kristen.

00:11:58.740 Really?

00:11:59.720 Yes.

00:12:00.600 I thought therapists weren't allowed to be friends with their current or former patients. I thought that was against the code of ethics.

00:12:08.920 that like code of ethics is if they're more for if they're still practicing from what I understand

00:12:14.620 like oh this is a retired oh yeah this is a retired therapist okay okay got it yeah so if

00:12:22.080 they're still practicing and I'm like I've graduated therapy bye um then it would be unethical for us

00:12:27.980 to like be in touch but now that she has shut down her practice basically the rule of thumb is like

00:12:35.200 it's kind of up to the therapist and like what they think their boundaries are interesting okay

00:12:40.140 and like i make sure to keep it very like surface level i don't ever want her to think i'm like

00:12:45.260 using her for therapy like i have another therapist i love my new therapist like that

00:12:50.020 base is covered but like i really missed talking to her about like tv and random hobbies and so

00:12:57.500 many months after she retired i i texted her once in a while and she texts back i'm like we just

00:13:04.240 have like a nice very light surfacy friendship okay well jolenta as somebody who loves you

00:13:11.460 and feels protective of your heart and your mental health oh i i do hope that you are really just

00:13:19.660 keeping it as a surface level friendship it's super surface like truly okay i reached out to

00:13:24.200 her and we talked about christine baranski in the gilded age and like her garden in florida

00:13:29.880 okay all right that's that's like super super surface okay and if that's as deep as it gets

00:13:36.240 you know you are a full-grown adult this is not something that i should even have any opinion on

00:13:41.820 i just love you and want you to be okay that's all okay i mean look i realized like months after

00:13:48.540 the fact i'm like she's probably one of the people i talked to most of my life like she's

00:13:51.920 kind of one of my only friends i just miss knowing what she's up to and like that she's alive once

00:13:59.800 in a while. So but don't worry, I'll keep it super surfacy. And I also did one other thing to expand

00:14:08.740 my sort of friend circle group that I think you will you'll approve of much more. Okay, okay. I'm

00:14:15.160 ready for that. I want that. Please tell me what is it? So because my therapist doesn't share my

00:14:21.480 love of reality TV, she can't be that kind of TV friend. I joined an online group called Garbage

00:14:28.120 World, which is this subscription platform that Bitch Sesh made for themselves. Bitch Sesh, 1.00

00:14:35.400 as you know, Casey Wilson, who was on the show a long, long time ago, and Danielle Schneider, 1.00

00:14:40.960 they have a show where they just talk about housewives, break it down, and they started

00:14:44.720 Garbage World so they could get paid more directly for the work they're doing. And it's this whole

00:14:50.200 online community where people talk and it's super fun and they have all sorts of different shows.

00:14:55.440 So I joined that online group so I could gossip about like my housewives and my Vanderpumps and

00:15:02.800 even my sister wives. Okay. I love that. It's exactly what Chelsea was talking about when she

00:15:09.080 said maybe join a Patreon community. Right. Exactly. Because then you're with other super

00:15:13.760 fans. That's essentially what a Patreon community is. I mean, yeah, we have one also for by the book

00:15:18.260 and it's just, you know, other super fans talking to each other, sharing their stories.

00:15:22.380 to nerd out. Yeah. So that sounds perfect for you. It really does, especially because it's all about

00:15:26.760 reality TV. Yeah, it's it's the perfect garbage world for me. And no, they did not sponsor this 0.98

00:15:34.160 in any way. This is just a word of mouth recommendation. And so that that is where I

00:15:40.360 ended living by Chelsea's advice, Kristen. And I obviously want to hear about your experience,

00:15:46.680 but we're going to take a quick break first.

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00:16:40.440 to help. Okay, we are back. And now it's time to hear from you, Kristen. We want to hear all about

00:16:48.580 how it went living by Chelsea DeVontes' tips for coping with and considering best friend breakups.

00:16:55.000 Well, it just so happens that this advice from Chelsea was coming at just the right time because

00:17:01.480 I'm going through a bit of something right now with a friend that we're just going to call Darren.

00:17:07.800 Darren and I have been friends for many years. He's one of those people I love to laugh with

00:17:13.720 and have silly debates with.

00:17:15.440 We talk about movies and books and travel, politics.

00:17:19.940 He's great at a party.

00:17:21.940 And like me, he has a lot of strong opinions.

00:17:23.920 So we always just have fun together.

00:17:26.400 It's almost like playing table tennis with ideas,

00:17:29.020 just batting ideas back and forth.

00:17:30.920 And those exciting, lively matches.

00:17:33.460 Yes, yes, yes, like that.

00:17:35.580 And because of that,

00:17:37.000 we have never really been the kind of friends

00:17:39.920 that he would invite me to go to his colonoscopy with him.

00:17:42.860 I would never ask him to help me move out of an apartment.

00:17:45.740 Not in case of emergency, friend.

00:17:47.900 Exactly, exactly.

00:17:48.840 I call him a fun friend, if that makes sense.

00:17:51.740 Yeah, yeah.

00:17:52.540 I know those people.

00:17:53.660 I call them usually like a party friend.

00:17:55.300 Oh, yes, yes.

00:17:56.280 That's a really great way to put it.

00:17:58.540 They're the kinds of people where I'm like on a virtual vacation from the hard stuff

00:18:02.000 whenever I hang out with those people.

00:18:03.360 Totally. 1.00

00:18:04.020 You're a gas.

00:18:04.920 Let's have a gas together.

00:18:06.680 Yeah, I think we all have friends like that.

00:18:09.220 those people who just lighten your mood and make you feel like like you're not even in your own

00:18:16.260 life. You're just on a fun adventure. Exactly, exactly, exactly. But a few months ago,

00:18:23.400 things took a turn and there was no laughing at all. I had Darren over for what I thought would

00:18:29.280 be another fun night of banter and debating. But then the topic of money came up and I completely

00:18:36.220 not reading the room. I'm owning this right now. I was not reading the room. I shared an opinion

00:18:41.380 about money and relationships that made him feel very judged. So, Kristen, I do need to hear

00:18:49.360 what the opinion was, or at least like the gist of it. All right. So just very vaguely speaking,

00:18:56.780 let's just say he and I disagree on how much a romantic partner should be paying for your life.

00:19:02.720 yes I've encountered that with friends that you know where it surprises me where they're like yep

00:19:08.940 so now that we're serious like I'm they're gonna pay for everything and you're like what

00:19:13.220 yeah yeah and in the moment Darren got very upset and he began yelling at me about how judgmental

00:19:22.880 I am and about how I think I'm better than everyone else and how I shouldn't be surprised

00:19:28.080 to know that most of my friends hold this opinion of me behind my back. And he yelled about how

00:19:33.080 callous I am. He used examples of hurtful text messages I'd supposedly sent him months earlier,

00:19:39.560 which, by the way, I save all of my text messages. And I look back, the examples he gave, I never

00:19:44.780 sent those text messages. I don't know who they came from, but he decided I was the person who

00:19:48.240 was texting him terrible things. Anywho, the yelling continued for almost an hour while I

00:19:55.960 reverted back to 20-something Kristen, the abused girlfriend, and also reverted back to a little

00:20:01.860 girl Kristen, the abused child. I just said I was sorry over and over and over again. And I cried

00:20:07.540 and it was awful. Oh, my God. And eventually Dean came home from work. I was going to say,

00:20:12.640 like, is Dean there for this? Like, what's happening? No, Dean's not even there. And then

00:20:16.780 Darren and I continued the conversation in the hallway while Dean sat inside the apartment

00:20:22.740 wondering what was going on uh and i continued to apologize more until darren eventually settled

00:20:28.580 down and just went home oh my gosh that is the worst that sounds awful weirdly i feel like many

00:20:34.680 of us have had this experience of just like trying to like make it end by being like i'm sorry i'm

00:20:40.580 sorry i'm sorry like ah yes oh you get it jolenta you totally get it i'm like i'm not gonna defend

00:20:46.360 myself i'm not gonna push back yeah like i put my foot in my mouth didn't mean to like i literally

00:20:51.600 just want this to stop. Yes. Oh, that sounds awful, especially when it's your fun friend.

00:20:57.540 Yes. Like it's also probably so jarring and unexpected. Yes. Yes. It was terrible. But as

00:21:05.060 I mentioned, we've been friends for years. And so I tried to figure out if there was any truth to

00:21:11.560 what Darren said. I asked myself, have I given the right things to this friendship? Am I a bad

00:21:17.660 friend? Do I really think I'm better than everyone else? Right. And so this is Chelsea's first tip

00:21:23.600 then, the assessing the relationship part. Yes. Yes, it was. But I wasn't just questioning

00:21:29.280 myself. I also did the part of Chelsea's suggestion where she says, try mapping the

00:21:33.620 friendship onto a romantic relationship. Right. And I asked myself, would I put up with this kind

00:21:39.980 of yelling if he were my boyfriend? I super hope the answer is no. You are not alone there.

00:21:47.660 um as a matter of fact dean was completely in your camp in fact here he is sharing his concerns

00:21:55.780 around that time um i do not think you're okay what do you mean i mean you you woke up the whole

00:22:05.360 building last night honey screaming again for the second night in the room i just think being yelled

00:22:11.320 that in your own home by someone you love really hurt you and it's just and you're being strong but 0.50

00:22:17.860 it's coming out at night i'm sorry you don't have anything to apologize for i just hate that you're

00:22:23.900 clearly in agony over this it always comes out at night one time when i was like going through 0.82

00:22:31.620 the estrangement with my dad brad woke me up saying i had been yelling i'm gonna rip your 0.97

00:22:36.140 throat out with my teeth. So it comes out at night. I need to be more like you and my dreams 0.96

00:22:46.040 and my dreams. I'm just cowering in a corner and screaming while bad things are happening.

00:22:50.560 Yeah. You're just being like, stop. Yeah. And I like your method more. I'm going to rip your

00:22:54.700 throat out with my teeth. Try to have it come out that way in your sleep. Like work through your 1.00

00:22:59.280 anger that way. I love it. I love it. Do not recommend. But that sounds horrible. That sounds

00:23:05.940 shitty. What did you do moving forward? Well, after several days, Darren reached out and asked 0.93

00:23:13.260 if we could get together. And I reluctantly said yes. I told myself that maybe his yelling was a

00:23:20.040 one-time thing. I mean, he's always been a really loud talker. And so maybe he just didn't realize

00:23:24.360 he was being even louder than usual. Right. And also there was a part of me that just hoped we

00:23:29.500 could go back to fun friend status. Yeah. Like maybe you could just go away. Yes. Yes. Let's

00:23:35.560 pretend that that didn't happen. It only happened once in a friendship that's been around for over

00:23:39.900 a decade. One time thing. We all mess up sometimes. But then he came over and he said he needed to

00:23:46.340 have a talk with me so we couldn't just go back to things as usual. And I hate it when people say

00:23:52.280 we need to have a talk. Just talk. Don't say we need to have a talk. I hate that.

00:23:56.340 Just be like, let's get together and then talk.

00:23:58.460 Oh, I hate that. I hate it so much. But he also made clear he didn't want to have

00:24:02.720 the talk with me until Dean left the house for his D&D club. And once Dean left,

00:24:10.320 Darren kind of admitted that maybe he was a little too emotional the last time we saw each other.

00:24:15.760 But then he explained that it's only because I'm a bad friend. 0.99

00:24:18.640 Oh, damn. 0.99

00:24:20.160 And then it all began again. 1.00

00:24:22.980 Oh, man, I thought I was not ready for that switcheroo.

00:24:26.040 No.

00:24:26.940 And this time, to his credit, he did not yell.

00:24:30.060 But he did tell me point blank that he's upset that I don't comment on his Facebook posts,

00:24:35.180 that I don't post enough things that include him, that I don't ask him enough questions

00:24:39.700 about his art, that I don't realize all the ways he's stressed in life, and that he's

00:24:45.580 lost all these other friends in recent years, and I really need to step up and be a better

00:24:49.380 friend to him.

00:24:50.160 I'm just part of the problem right now.

00:24:52.340 Oh, man.

00:24:53.180 So this this wasn't exactly like the apology that that you were hoping for or like the like, let's make up convo.

00:25:02.740 No, no.

00:25:03.900 I mean, I do think in his mind it was.

00:25:06.380 I do think so.

00:25:07.340 He never said the words I apologize or I'm sorry.

00:25:09.840 But I do think in his mind he was apologizing.

00:25:13.380 Right.

00:25:13.620 Like admitting that he was maybe overly emotional.

00:25:16.840 like yeah couldn't his mind be that that apology yeah but I think he also didn't realize he was

00:25:23.560 kind of doing a repeat behavior he was isolating me in my own home again without Dean there and

00:25:29.900 like basically cornering you to be to unload all his gripes yes exactly exactly and once again

00:25:37.180 these gripes went back months if not years like he was kind of keeping score about how many things

00:25:41.840 he was upset about with me. Right. Yeah. Like old text messages and stuff like things clearly have

00:25:47.080 been building up for him. Yes. For a long time. So did you call it quits them after that? Like

00:25:55.400 two strikes, you're out policy. Now it's your turn to please not judge me. Oh, no. She's playing

00:26:01.980 baseball. She's giving him a third strike, isn't she? Yes. Yes. Because I am a polite idiot. I

00:26:08.780 attended a party of his that i'd already rsvp'd to i'm like well that's tough i would be on the 0.98

00:26:14.520 fence about that too like i already said i would be at this party i can't be the asshole who was 0.64

00:26:18.760 pulling out of the party right when i said it would be at the party so i i mean i i probably

00:26:25.060 should have bowed out but probably yeah but also i understand like the desire to follow through

00:26:32.960 on things you say you're going to do. And like, I mean, at the back of my mind, at least I'd be

00:26:39.000 like, and I'm showing him I'm a good friend by showing up. Yes. Yes. Oh, my God. You totally

00:26:44.940 understand where I was coming from. Good. You get it. OK. Thank you for not judging me.

00:26:51.180 So, yeah. How did it go? Does that mean you didn't break up after all? Give me the deets.

00:26:57.800 Well, you know, I actually had fun at the party because there were some friends there who I was

00:27:02.200 really happy to see. And, you know, so I hung with those friends at the party. Nice. While it was

00:27:06.800 happening. And then after the party was over with, I guess you could say I kind of distanced myself.

00:27:15.220 I chose not to reach out to Darren. Darren, however, did text me. And when I saw his name

00:27:22.360 show up in my phone, I literally got like almost sick to my stomach. Oh, yeah. Those like flip

00:27:28.300 flop where you're like, yeah, where I'm like, oh, shoot. Okay, this is my body telling me I should

00:27:33.780 not open this text message or read it. If it's making me feel physically ill, I shouldn't open

00:27:38.500 it. Right. And then the next week he texted again. And then the week after that, he texted a third

00:27:43.860 time. And I didn't open any of those text messages, Jolanta. Whoa, unread. Yes, they're still sitting

00:27:51.700 in unread. And rather than open the text messages, I just turned to Dean and a few of my friends

00:27:58.860 to get their advice, to get them to, you know, make me feel less like a lousy person. Honestly,

00:28:06.100 I'm like, am I a bad person? I'm not opening these text messages. And so obviously Dean,

00:28:11.560 always in my corner, was like, no, anybody who yells at you does not deserve to be in your life.

00:28:16.180 That's what Dean's saying. Yeah. And so this sounds like you're doing tip two then,

00:28:20.360 like opening up to friends about going through a breakup yes that's exactly what i was doing

00:28:25.000 and other than dean the friend that i leaned on most heavily as i was kind of processing all this

00:28:30.060 was my friend liz liz actually is the one who introduced me and darren many many years ago

00:28:35.660 oh so she like yeah knows the terrain so to speak yes she knows what he's like she knows what i'm

00:28:42.700 like she sees both the good and bad in both of us and she's also just like a total straight shooter

00:28:47.940 like she doesn't mince words she'll tell me yeah hey that wasn't cool or you know whatever it is

00:28:53.680 but she's also super supportive so yeah she reassured me like your friends don't all secretly 1.00

00:29:00.400 talk about what an asshole you are behind your back don't worry about that that would get to me 0.99

00:29:04.880 yeah that's a rough one to hear from someone i'm glad she cleared that up yeah and she also you 1.00

00:29:11.960 know did the same thing as dean she gave me full permission to step back from darren without

00:29:15.880 explanation or apology. Yeah, I think that's great advice to get when you're going through

00:29:21.120 a friend breakup. And I'm glad I'm glad you were open with her and Dean about what you're going

00:29:25.960 through. What happened after that? Well, after a few weeks, Liz and I were hanging out and,

00:29:33.360 you know, just talking about life in general, about what's going on with her work, my work,

00:29:39.460 other things, her family. And then out of the blue, she asked me this.

00:29:43.280 you still haven't talked did you ever respond to his text messages no i did you forget

00:29:51.340 oh my god no i haven't well maybe i have i for you fully let it go mine's that's good

00:29:59.820 is it the last time we talked about it you were really feeling it you were really feeling

00:30:05.980 emotional about it and like felt confused about what to do and how to proceed because i think

00:30:11.120 he hurt you so much but that you didn't want to put yourself back in the same position again where

00:30:16.680 you would be vulnerable because he tends to be a narcissist when it comes to those kinds of

00:30:22.580 conversations where it always goes back to him yeah so when he's fun he's so much fun well right

00:30:31.520 that's the problem he can be tons of fun but he can also be vicious so I don't know I don't

00:30:41.100 But the fact that you kind of forgot that you haven't interacted with him, you know, maybe that means you've been able to, like, let it slide off a little more or be more protective of your, of yourself within that friendship.

00:30:58.000 Ah, Liz, love your insights. What a, like, very supportive and wise friend.

00:31:03.560 she absolutely is but also bonus she's a very practical friend who gives absolutely fantastic

00:31:11.660 advice listen but you are probably going to run into each other since you have all these mutual

00:31:16.660 friends you're going to have an interaction and it could be awkward so like maybe maybe honestly

00:31:22.620 if you just go into it with like if he approaches you and says hey i haven't heard from you or i'm

00:31:29.320 really upset with you that you didn't respond you can just say oh i just needed a break for a while

00:31:34.760 because things got really heated and i was feeling a lot of things and that would be honest i think

00:31:41.180 that's a good way to put it and i mean what is he going to say to that you know i think that's an

00:31:47.280 honest and truthful response so if he melts down then he's going to be kind of the especially in

00:31:52.780 public he's going to be the you know yeah I think that's that's really good advice thank you you're

00:32:00.200 welcome that's great advice yeah I like it it's honest it's succinct it's not like too blamey it

00:32:06.200 just is what it is yeah things got heated so yeah I just stepped back a bit and you're right it's

00:32:12.480 not blamey and I think that's one of the best things about Liz's advice I'm not pointing fingers

00:32:16.420 You know, like, no, you scared me off. Yeah. Yeah. So is that how you finished up living by

00:32:23.820 Chelsea's tips? Not exactly. I like to think I also did Chelsea's fourth tip. And that's try to

00:32:29.700 look objectively at like what contributed to the breakup. Like, did you play a part? What was going

00:32:34.680 on? Exactly. Exactly. And I like to think that in writing up the notes for this episode, that's

00:32:41.440 exactly what I tried to do, kind of create a chronological play-by-play. And also, just

00:32:47.540 disclaimer to the listeners, this is just my side of the story. I'm sure Darren would have a very

00:32:52.180 different interpretation of how things went down. I'm not the be-all, end-all here. I'm just one

00:32:56.920 person. He's the other half of this conversation. So obviously, he might have a totally different

00:33:03.020 chronological order of things. So I want to be clear about that. But I do feel like that was

00:33:08.020 the fourth tip that Chelsea gave. And I do think it helped me feel better about things.

00:33:12.980 Right. It helps gaining perspective, looking at it in the order of like the way things happened,

00:33:18.240 as opposed to sort of looking at that like whirlwind of feelings that it brought up.

00:33:22.600 Yeah, I really think it did. And so now, Jalinta, that we've shared both of our stories about BFF

00:33:28.860 breakups, it is time to get to the verdict. That's right. But first, we have to take one more quick

00:33:35.520 break i want to date with roars carty says roars rucker asks this is the love story of real hinge

00:33:47.480 couple carty and rocker written and read by me nicola dinan listen to the free audiobook now

00:33:54.560 sorry investing trading that isn't a personality you don't need the voice you don't need the jargon

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00:34:23.600 TD Easy Trade is made to help download it now hey everyone we're back and now it's that moment

00:34:31.580 you've all been waiting for. Verdict time. Verdict time. Did Chelsea Devontas' tips work

00:34:37.640 for us? Would we recommend them? Jolenta, let's start with you. Overall, I thought this was pretty

00:34:44.680 sound advice. You know, even though it's not the most fun thing to do, it's important to look at

00:34:51.260 your part in friendship breakups. And I think it's so easy to get caught up in your feelings

00:34:55.920 and feeling wronged and just sort of rehashing how you were wronged and then like telling other

00:35:01.880 people about how you were wrong to make sure like they think you were wrong too it's it's a two

00:35:07.260 person dynamic it took two people to make the friendship it takes two people for it to like

00:35:12.240 fall apart sometimes yeah so I I think it's nice to remember like the other party can feel wronged

00:35:20.000 by you and how you could have perhaps contributed to that. And in a weird way, doing that kind of

00:35:26.240 lessens the blow of the loss. At least it did for me. Like when I was thinking about being

00:35:33.020 codependent or like just sort of things like fizzling out with friends. It's like, oh, I had

00:35:40.520 a part in that. I agreed to this codependent dynamic. I too haven't been texting as much.

00:35:46.180 And I feel much less like wronged by the situation. And I love any advice that gets me joining an online group where I can read all sorts of like hot goss about my favorite Bravo liberties. So any advice that gets me doing that is is pretty sound advice, if you ask me.

00:36:07.360 I'm so glad to hear that, Jolanta.

00:36:08.620 It sounds like you got a lot out of Chelsea's tips.

00:36:10.460 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:10.940 And I was surprised because I'm not like currently going through a breakup, but like it did help

00:36:14.860 me sort of feel a little less bitter about ones that have happened in the past.

00:36:19.440 Good, good.

00:36:20.500 What about you, Kristen?

00:36:21.660 What do you think of Chelsea's advice?

00:36:23.960 I really liked her tips.

00:36:26.500 They were so concrete and clear and easy to do.

00:36:29.920 I mean, just like the simplicity of mapping, you know, a friendship onto a romance, that advice alone is just like, oh, my God, it was so helpful for me.

00:36:42.660 I mean, just imagining what if this were my boyfriend or my fiance or my husband who isolated me in my house and yelled at me for an hour straight.

00:36:51.300 And obviously, that situation was hurting me.

00:36:54.460 Obviously, it was coming out in nightmares.

00:36:56.160 Obviously, it was causing Dean to worry.

00:36:58.020 You know, obviously I was waking up my whole apartment building.

00:37:01.540 It was bad.

00:37:02.480 Right, right.

00:37:03.020 You know, so I wasn't really thinking about that in terms of would I put up with a boyfriend

00:37:08.060 doing this to me, but it was really helpful to have Chelsea suggest looking at things

00:37:12.380 that way.

00:37:13.380 Also, I thought it was great to have those moments of just stopping and giving perspective

00:37:17.860 to things, thinking about, have I done something wrong here?

00:37:21.560 Are there things that I could be doing differently?

00:37:24.080 because you know friendships are two people as we've said repeatedly you know it was useful when

00:37:30.000 he was saying you texted me this and this and this it was really important for me to go back

00:37:34.240 and look at my text messages and be accountable and see actually no i didn't actually send any

00:37:39.060 of these text messages you think i've sent but it was important for me to take that step but if you

00:37:43.540 did you were ready to look at them exactly exactly because if i had done that i would want to own up

00:37:49.460 to it and, you know, be clear. I really fucked up here. I made a huge mistake. So I thought it was 0.99

00:37:55.460 good to, you know, look at the evidence, see what was there, but then also get perspective from

00:38:00.080 friends, lean on people, not just sit in my head with it. And I think in the past, you know, our

00:38:06.260 interview conversation with Chelsea, I talked about that terrible, terrible breakup with that

00:38:11.300 BFF who slept with my boyfriend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think even though I was talking a lot of people's

00:38:17.340 ears off eventually. In the first few months, I had so much shame about it. I didn't talk about

00:38:22.140 it at all. Right. I was going to say it's shameful when stuff like that happens to you. It's shameful

00:38:26.900 when you contribute to a friend breakup. Like it's easy to not address it with anyone. Yes. Yes. And

00:38:33.620 so with that other breakup, I did eventually open up and then I didn't shut up about it for years.

00:38:37.640 But this time around, I didn't wait months to open up about it. I did it very quickly with Dean and

00:38:42.720 you know, within a few weeks with Liz too. So I think that helped me a lot too. So Chelsea,

00:38:49.140 all these tips, I do think they helped me. I don't know yet what's going to happen with me and Darren.

00:38:55.400 Part of me would really love it if we could go back to being fun friends. But another part of

00:39:00.260 me is like, if we don't, that's nothing to be ashamed of. People go through breakups with

00:39:06.400 their friends. And just the fact that we're all talking about it right now, I think makes the

00:39:11.080 world a little kinder and more understanding and more empathetic to the fact that this is just a

00:39:15.880 reality. And again, there's nothing to be ashamed of. Yeah, totally agree.

00:39:26.500 That's it for this episode of How to Be Fine with Friends. Be sure to tell us what friend-related

00:39:32.240 topics you want us to cover and share your own successes and challenges in making friends in

00:39:36.880 our private facebook community that's facebook.com slash groups slash kristin angelenta and of course

00:39:43.640 don't forget if you love our other show by the book you can find it two places first you can

00:39:49.260 scroll back in this very feed that you're listening to right now and all 10 original

00:39:54.260 seasons are right there second if you want new seasons like us living by the artist's way

00:39:59.600 go check out our patreon community patreon.com slash listen to buy the book huge thanks to our

00:40:06.580 producer Courtney Guarino, and to our ad sales team at AdLarge. Until next time, I'm Kristen

00:40:11.840 Meinser. And I'm Jalanta Greenberg. Thanks so much for listening, everyone. Bye.

00:40:30.920 You matched on Hinge. You're vibing. Then her energy completely changes.

00:40:36.580 what do you do? I'm Raven Smith and I wrote and read a real love story about this exact

00:40:41.880 sitch. Listen to the free audiobook now.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - July 14, 2024

Sunday Nice Things： How to be Fine

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