Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - The Art of an Adventurous Life

00:00:00.000 Hey y'all, Jo here, and you are listening to Under the Influence.

00:00:10.540 This week I'm doing something just a little bit different because, as many of you know,

00:00:15.480 book launch is a chaotic, crazy pants time, and I'm a little bit exhausted. I'm doing okay. I am.

00:00:22.360 I mean, I think we've now hit 20 events in 16 cities in about two weeks, which is which is a little bit bananas.

00:00:31.460 But but I'm doing I'm doing OK.

00:00:33.980 I am. I am. And it's far from over because, as you all know, putting books into the world for me is a marathon, not a sprint.

00:00:42.400 I want us to build a community of readers around Parisian Heist.

00:00:45.460 And so my goal is just to keep going forever and ever and ever.

00:00:50.360 If you haven't grabbed Parisian ice yet, what are you waiting for? Get it now. You're going to love

00:00:54.240 it. So many people are devouring it in a single night, which I love. Love, love keeping you all

00:01:00.040 up way too late. Today's episode is actually a crossover with my best friend in the entire

00:01:04.980 world. You've heard her here before, Jackie Cascarano. She has a new podcast called Get a

00:01:09.960 Life. Jackie is a women's wellness coach and positive psychology practitioner. And I love

00:01:17.160 this podcast because it talks about women in the middle times of their life. I don't like the word

00:01:22.160 middle-aged, like the middle, the middle times, the mushy, mushy middle of our life. It talks about

00:01:27.980 what it's like to be us. It talks about what it's like to want something bigger and sometimes better

00:01:32.440 or sometimes just different. And I think that's something we don't talk nearly enough about.

00:01:36.640 I truly do. Jackie, since she has also been my best friend since I was 18 years old,

00:01:42.240 knows where all of the bodies are buried, knows all of my terrible secrets, and she asks me

00:01:47.560 questions that almost no one else thinks to. And you'd think, after so much time on the road,

00:01:51.360 that everyone would have asked me everything. But that's not the case yet. It's not. We're

00:01:55.720 going to dig into why travel has become such an important part of my life, the women who inspire

00:02:00.600 my novels, the myth of male genius, and how I want to think about this second half of my life

00:02:06.980 as one big, grand, wonderful adventure.

00:02:11.360 Hope you enjoyed this chat.

00:02:18.000 Welcome to Get a Life.

00:02:19.720 This is a podcast for women who feel the pull towards something more.

00:02:23.680 Women ready to become the main characters of their own stories

00:02:26.500 and build lives filled with interesting experiences, 0.73

00:02:30.320 passionate pursuits, and adventures big and small.

00:02:33.880 I'm Jackie Cascarano, former lawyer turned women's wellness coach, and I'm a practitioner

00:02:40.120 of positive psychology, the science of well-being.

00:02:43.580 I help high-achieving women reconnect with themselves and create lives rich with authenticity,

00:02:50.720 alignment, and agency.

00:02:56.860 Welcome back to the Get a Life podcast.

00:02:59.080 I am so excited to welcome today's guest, journalist, podcaster, and bestselling author

00:03:07.080 of so many books, so many books, including The Sicilian Inheritance, Everyone Is Lying

00:03:13.340 to You, and you guys, The Book of the Summer, The Parisian Heist, Joe Piazza.

00:03:21.040 Oh my gosh.

00:03:21.980 Thank you so much for having me.

00:03:23.720 Yay.

00:03:24.540 It really is The Book of the Summer, The Parisian Heist.

00:03:27.260 Guys, smash that order button right now.

00:03:28.920 You're going to love it. Yes. Joe is brilliant and delightful. And I would also like everyone

00:03:33.860 to know that she also happens to be my best friend. So lucky me. Lucky me. Oh, thank you,

00:03:40.480 babe. So as you know, Joe, this podcast is all about high achieving women in midlife,

00:03:47.140 actually living their best lives in the face of all the pressures that we face caregiving,

00:03:54.480 which is like number one structural systemic basically the patriarchy right the gender norms

00:04:00.960 that get us productivity which is something I talk about quite a lot so the productivity

00:04:06.200 imperative basically like we feel like we have to be producing and you know output constantly

00:04:11.860 career stuff caregiving for aging parents which is like something yeah we're feeling that if we're

00:04:18.840 if we're sandwiched right now. And we specifically focus on pastimes and adventures as a pathway to

00:04:27.120 flourishing. And we look at it through a scientific lens here on the Get a Life podcast,

00:04:31.080 what the research says about how humans and specifically women, female humans, can flourish

00:04:37.620 and why many of us are not, like not flourishing at this stage of life. So I've had authors on the

00:04:45.520 podcast. My two prior guests have been authors of academic, researchy nonfiction books. But I'm

00:04:51.900 really excited to welcome a bestselling fiction author and nonfiction. You've had some nonfiction

00:04:58.520 books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did some nonfiction books. So many books. I don't know. Someone asked

00:05:02.520 me, I did an interview with New York CBS with Mary Calvey this morning. And she's like, what

00:05:08.080 number book is this? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm not sure. Yeah, that is an indication you're

00:05:13.500 doing things right. I love it. So I'm so excited to have you on here because I think it's number

00:05:17.600 one, you're phenomenal. You really are. You really are just a phenomenal person all around. But you

00:05:22.340 are a real life human being, woman on the planet, trying to navigate all the things we talk about

00:05:28.260 on this podcast, right? You're trying to thrive in every sense of the word amidst all the pressures

00:05:34.120 and a book launch this summer. Oh my gosh. So much. So, and this is a collab, right? So this

00:05:40.200 is a I'm I'm a good get a life podcast and we're gonna be putting this I'm putting this into the

00:05:44.440 under the influence feed on public of the Parisian heist because Jackie I mean who better to ask me

00:05:50.300 about you know the genesis of this book and how I thrived through writing this book than the person

00:05:54.920 who probably knows me better than my husband yeah isn't that funny oh yeah yeah you too you too

00:06:00.080 okay so you are a journalist you're an author you have many degrees many impressive degrees

00:06:05.300 you are also a mother of 30 children three you're a wife and you're a daughter you have many roles

00:06:13.740 so tell me talk to me about who you are what you do for yourself when you aren't doing all

00:06:22.640 those things I just listed all of those things all those things well it's interesting and I say

00:06:26.940 this a lot because a lot of the things that people have as hobbies are my jobs right and so

00:06:34.020 I can't really relax into reading because it turns I love reading and I'm a huge reader but

00:06:42.000 it is also work for me because I'm constantly thinking about my own books or I'm reading to

00:06:47.140 blurb them so like that is not a hobby for me I'm also not a person that like considers exercise a

00:06:53.500 hobby my hobby and you and I have talked about this when you were coming up with the genesis

00:06:57.840 for all of this is I truly think that it's travel and that also used to be my job right

00:07:03.840 I was a travel editor, but now I find that when I can really let go and really kind of

00:07:11.040 be in a flow and be present, it is when I'm traveling.

00:07:14.820 It's when I'm adventuring.

00:07:15.860 And so I make that a priority to do it, not just with, I do it a lot with my family.

00:07:22.320 We take all the kids.

00:07:23.400 We're leaving tomorrow to go to a dude ranch in Wyoming and fossil hunting in Colorado,

00:07:30.140 which is going to be wild.

00:07:31.140 but also by myself traveling by myself is really something that I do just for me and then traveling

00:07:38.720 with my girlfriends you and I are very good at scheduling trips together we're we're on the

00:07:43.320 cusp of having to schedule another trip and then traveling with my husband without our children

00:07:47.900 and so I would say that is like travel is my number one hobby I didn't because when you at

00:07:51.940 first asked me like do you have any hobbies and I'm like nope yeah that's usually there's that's

00:07:55.800 the response. Yeah. Yeah. They roll their eyes. Yeah. They're, they're like, no, no, no. I don't

00:08:02.320 even know what that thing is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I would say travel and I think that's a valid

00:08:06.480 hobby. It's an expensive hobby. A thousand percent. Yeah. I would. So, you know, I'm doing

00:08:11.240 in-depth research. I just finished a thesis on this whole topic and my framework really is like

00:08:18.860 splitting up hobby and adventures. And I think that, I think that that overlaps a little bit

00:08:26.600 because I think that travel can be adventurous. I have always thought of you as incredibly

00:08:30.600 adventurous. Really. Oh, thank you. I mean, I also, I also feel adventurous. I do not think

00:08:35.720 that is inaccurate. I think you are. I think you're, I always have thought of you as like

00:08:40.160 very brave and maybe that's coming from being me. And I'm like, I've always felt like not very

00:08:47.040 brave. And I'm coming from this, we've talked about our childhoods. Like I'm coming from this

00:08:50.620 place of anxiety and fear. And I have had to like overcome that in my adulthood. And I've always

00:08:56.260 been impressed by people like yourself who have been like naturally adventurous. Like, have you

00:09:04.440 always been naturally adventurous or did you feel like you had to talk yourself into it at some

00:09:10.340 cultivate it. Yeah. And let me, and let me give you an example. Joe Piazza and FYI, my friends

00:09:16.760 listening, these are things that people who are adventurous don't even consider adventure.

00:09:22.000 You don't even consider them adventurous. For example, for example, you had a three month old

00:09:26.340 baby and you, and you went to Sicily, you and Nick went to Sicily. I had such anxiety on your behalf.

00:09:33.860 I was like, Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I mean, it was incredible. You do all these

00:09:39.720 phenomenally adventurous things. So yeah, so that isn't one example of something you probably don't

00:09:45.380 think is adventurous. But to me, it's incredibly psychologically rich. We've talked about that term.

00:09:50.580 So talk to me about that trait that you have. Do you have to cultivate it? Or is this just

00:09:54.520 something you've had? You know, I think it's something that I've always had. Like, it really

00:09:58.740 has been like a part of me, like, I want to go explore the weird thing. And I've always been

00:10:03.980 that way since I was a kid. And I think that I was a natural journalist, right? From the very

00:10:10.200 start. Like I wanted to explore, figure it out. I have an intense level of curiosity and a high

00:10:16.160 tolerance for risk as well. So, which also I think probably comes from essentially being raised by

00:10:21.160 feral wolves. And so I do think that I'm naturally adventurous. It is not something that I've had to

00:10:27.380 cultivate. So one of the, we've talked about psychological richness. Psychological richness

00:10:31.820 is basically a third dimension of a good life, something new that's been introduced into the

00:10:36.760 research. There's a happy life, which is kind of content, right? Good feels. There's a meaningful

00:10:42.120 life or meaningful experiences. Being a mother or caring for others gives you meaning. There's this

00:10:48.040 third dimension that folks on my podcast have heard me talk about a lot. And you and I have

00:10:51.980 talked about this, this third dimension of psychological richness. And that's like doing

00:10:56.340 exciting, interesting, out of the ordinary, novel things that shift your perspective.

00:11:03.400 Travel is the number one way to have a psychologically rich experience.

00:11:09.100 And when you think about personality traits, like psychological personality traits that

00:11:13.860 the psychologists have been talking about forever, openness to experience is one that

00:11:18.800 allows you to have a lot of these psychologically rich experiences.

00:11:21.880 And it seems like you have that.

00:11:22.900 I also think that the openness to risk, right? So it's basically, it's the opposite of neuroticism.

00:11:29.620 And these are like the top five psychological personality types, which I have some and I've

00:11:35.040 been working on like my entire life. I'm an Enneagram six, which is basically like-

00:11:39.200 Oh, I just took the Enneagram test, but I forget what it was.

00:11:43.020 You're probably a seven or a three.

00:11:45.360 That's what everyone, no, I'm a seven or a three. Yeah. And that's what literally everyone says.

00:11:49.180 Yeah. Well, three is high achieving. And then seven is like very fun and like wanting,

00:11:55.020 I don't even know how to describe it. It's fun and wanting new experiences and kind of can't

00:11:59.820 sit still. I am an Enneagram six, which is basically like the anxious ones. Hello. But

00:12:05.820 your wing is really important. So I'm a six wing seven. So I'm anxious, but I'm also a lot of fun.

00:12:13.560 You are fun.

00:12:14.260 I know. It's like, if it's perfect. Yeah.

00:12:16.200 Yeah. Yeah. So Enneagram six is basically security. So it's like the opposite of openness

00:12:23.500 to experience and adventurous things. We didn't have any breaks in here in the original recording

00:12:29.600 with Jackie. So I'm going to pop one in here and we'll be right back. Okay. And we're back.

00:12:42.540 you write about a lot of really I think strong women yeah for sure badass women badass women

00:12:50.720 yeah yeah so tell me about tell like I'm thinking about the Sicilian inherit we're going to talk

00:12:55.980 about the Parisian heist for sure yeah I'm thinking about the Sicilian inheritance in particular

00:13:00.260 which I think is a personal favorite because we went on that trip to Sicily we did um I tagged

00:13:06.280 along on this research trip that she went on. And that was a very spontaneous last minute for me.

00:13:13.060 That was very psychologically rich. It was. It was not the kind of thing you usually do.

00:13:15.320 No. See, I'm growing. I write a lot of different kinds of books, which publishers don't always

00:13:20.120 love, which agents don't always love. They would love you to write the same book at the same lake

00:13:24.560 every freaking summer, right? And I'm like, I'm going to do a murder mystery on a dude ranch

00:13:28.780 or a historical fiction book set in Sicily and the mafia is going to be there. But I think the

00:13:34.300 one thing that ties my books together are ambitious women trying to succeed and helping 0.88

00:13:39.620 one another to succeed against the odds and really you know because of the patriarchy because of you

00:13:45.960 know systemic problems and so yeah the sicilian inheritance is about a philadelphia chef and

00:13:51.420 her restaurant has fallen apart because it is really hard for a woman to be a chef for a mother

00:13:57.260 to be a chef for a caregiver to be a chef and she's kind of down on her luck and she finds out

00:14:02.560 that she may have inherited some family land in Sicily. But to get it, she has to solve the

00:14:08.220 murder of her great grandmother. So she travels to Sicily. And then we also have a dual timeline

00:14:13.760 of a young woman in Sicily who is forced into motherhood at a young age.

00:14:20.180 And when her husband goes to America to try to seek his fortune, she is actually left with a lot

00:14:26.480 more options. Because when the men left, the women could take their jobs, they could take their roles 0.87

00:14:31.160 over and they're essentially running this entire village. And so Serafina in the past timeline 0.85

00:14:36.060 actually becomes the town doctor, which comes with its own dangers. And these two timelines progress

00:14:42.980 and the women are helping one another, trying to succeed against all of these odds. And eventually 0.55

00:14:50.100 they do come together at the end. Incredible. And I love the sense of purpose that Serafina

00:14:56.700 is able to formulate by doing what she's so good at, right? By digging into her gifts and her

00:15:02.360 strengths. Exactly, exactly. And it's a thing that she never would have been allowed to do,

00:15:06.100 right? Because we're talking about the beginning of the 20th century. The majority of women

00:15:09.720 couldn't read or write or do math. And she's pulled out of school at a very young age, 1.00

00:15:13.780 as many women were. But she's given this chance to thrive. And she's given a chance 0.79

00:15:18.680 to follow her passion and also to follow some adventure, to be honest. And we see Sarah also

00:15:24.800 do that and also, you know, kind of find a reawakening of herself in this Sicilian trip

00:15:31.520 that I think, you know, really can like, you know, make all of us think about, about how we could use

00:15:39.000 those things in our own lives. So what I love about the Sarah timeline also is that it's like

00:15:45.580 an invitation to engage in an adventurous experience. Right. And how I do feel like as

00:15:51.800 women, amidst the monotony kind of our daily lives and in this particular chapter, if you're

00:16:00.200 in midlife, if you are caregiving, there is a stability, which is lovely, honestly, especially

00:16:07.600 if you have had instability in your life, that's lovely. That's sort of the happiness. But there's

00:16:13.220 a lot of monotony and a lot of routine. And I think that when there's an opportunity, and I feel

00:16:20.020 like I've talked to so many women recently that have said like, yeah, it just seemed like a God

00:16:24.720 wink or the universe was aligning that I could do this cool thing. You know, like that trip to

00:16:29.640 Sicily that I took, it happened to be a perfect week. I wasn't working at the time. It was

00:16:35.180 phenomenally perfect for me to go and fly away with you to Sicily. So it's like that. Yeah. It's

00:16:42.080 that invitation to actually take one step forward towards something that could be different

00:16:46.720 perspective shifting and really exciting, following those curiosities, right? So what I love,

00:16:52.340 and this is actually a series I'm hoping to do on the Get a Life podcast, is like historical

00:16:56.300 badasses who were adventurous and flourished outside of the roles they also had. Because I

00:17:03.660 think that's really important. These are women that it's not like they had a lot of time on 1.00

00:17:07.440 their hands. They like had a lot of stuff to do, a lot of people to take care of, and they still 1.00

00:17:12.200 prioritize their own well-being. So I would love to talk about Joe Van Gogh.

00:17:17.500 Joe Van Gogh. Oh my God. I love Joe Van Gogh. Real life person. Real life person. Real life

00:17:22.180 person. Tell us all about her. So Joe Van Gogh is one of the subjects in my new novel,

00:17:28.920 The Parisian Heist, The Book of the Summer. And she is a real person, but I don't think a lot of

00:17:34.940 us have heard her name. She was Vincent's sister-in-law, Vincent Van Gogh. You've heard

00:17:39.680 his name, his sister-in-law. And she inherited hundreds of his paintings when he passed away.

00:17:47.900 She was in her 20s. She was the mother of a very young, sick, ill child. And her husband,

00:17:55.880 Vincent's brother, passed pretty soon after Vincent did and couldn't get life insurance

00:18:01.540 because he was very sick. So the only thing she inherited pretty much was hundreds of worthless

00:18:08.320 paintings from her brother-in-law. And she's living in Paris. She's not French. And she

00:18:15.860 doesn't know what to do to survive. So essentially, she turned herself into an art dealer during a 0.88

00:18:23.360 time when women were not art dealers. She turned herself into a branding expert and created this 0.99

00:18:30.040 entire mythology and narrative around Vincent van Gogh in order to convince the art world

00:18:38.440 that his paintings had value. I do not think that we would know Vincent's name today had it not been

00:18:45.880 for Joe van Gogh. I do not think that so many people in college would have lost their virginity

00:18:50.520 beneath posters of Starry Night had it not been for Joe van Gogh. And yet her name is truly lost

00:18:56.360 to history and and I want I want people to walk into a museum and see a Van Gogh and think of Joe

00:19:05.020 and just behind every yeah behind every man behind every man is a strong woman and and you know this

00:19:13.600 is just true across history and we have this mythology around the idea of the male genius

00:19:21.460 the solitary male genius and yet it's just that it's just a myth okay like behind every man

00:19:31.020 who succeeds is some kind of caregiver it's usually a wife but sometimes it's a husband

00:19:38.180 sometimes it's a mother sometimes it's a sister who gives up their own life often and does not

00:19:46.560 pursue enough of their own dreams in service of this idea of male genius. And so that's one of

00:19:53.580 my goals. It's an essay that I'm working on right now, hopefully for New York Magazine. Guys,

00:19:58.280 you've got to take this essay about how it's time to eradicate the idea of male genius because

00:20:04.460 the people who are in service to it, the people who do the labor behind the scenes,

00:20:09.780 get erased. And then I don't think that they're able to one, take credit, but also, you know,

00:20:17.380 in terms of what we're talking about today, see it in service of their own purpose and see it in

00:20:24.420 service of their own growth and sense of adventure because they're constantly prostrating themselves

00:20:29.800 for someone else. Oh, a thousand percent. Yes. Yes, yes. And yes, let's, let's, let's get rid

00:20:37.520 of the idea of the male of the solitary male genius and talk about the support networks that

00:20:43.220 it takes to get these people where they are and I remember so I told you about this but I recently

00:20:50.340 watched a documentary on Ernest Hemingway oh yes I was I was so angry the whole time I mean what

00:20:57.000 a misogynist so the the wives are holding down the fort while he goes on these fantabulous

00:21:02.100 adventures and the life he lived i was like this is phenomenal and these wives held down the fort

00:21:08.200 and raised kids and and and you know gave him gave him what he needed petted him on the head

00:21:12.740 and pinched his cheek and took care of him when he came home and then he finally married this 0.81

00:21:16.300 woman martha gillhorn who was a force of her own and would not be yeah she would not stay home

00:21:22.800 there was i think it was the spanish war yeah i think it was the spanish war yeah she basically

00:21:27.740 was like I'm going over there he could not handle it he could not handle it so what I love I just I

00:21:34.380 love I love that comment about the the myth of the the male genius and and then there's also

00:21:40.760 like Albert Einstein I love that story that's where it's like well his wife was also a genius

00:21:44.420 in her own right so his wife was also a genius I mean I also think about Oppenheimer yes and she

00:21:50.760 was also a scientist a brilliant scientist and you know she never gets any of the credit in fact

00:21:55.240 she often gets written off as a drunk. Alfred Hitchcock's wife, who actually was, you know,

00:22:01.420 probably his best collaborator. And then obviously the most obvious example is Zelda Fitzgerald,

00:22:06.860 who, you know, Scott essentially just plagiarized her. And then institutionalized her. 0.88

00:22:12.340 And then put her in an institution. Yeah. Hysterical. These hysterical women. Why would 0.68

00:22:18.000 she be upset? Why would she be upset by that? What? I love it. Yeah. So the Joe Van Gogh

00:22:23.900 character is just fascinating. And I love that you're shedding light on her story. How did you

00:22:29.400 find out about her? So, I mean, funny, just, you know, stories appear. Stories appear when they

00:22:34.200 want to be told. And I was hanging out with my friend, Steven Weinberg, who's an artist and a

00:22:40.540 children's book author. He has kids the same age as mine. They're best friends. They're like running

00:22:46.100 free in a field up in the Catskills. And Steven was working on his book, What is Color?, which is

00:22:51.900 about the history and science of color. It's brilliant. It's the best kids book, kids book

00:22:57.180 out there. And he was like, yeah, in my research, I found this story about Joe Van Gogh. She was the

00:23:03.820 woman behind the man. She essentially made Vincent famous. I haven't seen anything written about this

00:23:08.540 except for one really academic biography that's about to come out. He's like, it just seems

00:23:13.820 so right for a feminist novel. But I, Steven Weinberg, cannot be the one to write this

00:23:20.840 feminist novel I think you should do it and I literally started writing like that night

00:23:25.200 and then you know decided I also wanted to write a modern timeline mostly because I wanted to have

00:23:30.760 an all-female art heist in Paris and yeah I mean come on like that's what we and the timing is

00:23:37.280 insanity because the book was about to like be like the cover was about to be announced and then

00:23:42.800 the Louvre heist happens and I'm like I'm clearly a Sicilian witch like I'm clearly freaking psychic

00:23:47.680 y'all because then the Louvre heist happened and I was really glad that it happened because it was

00:23:52.900 super basic like those thieves were just basic basic bees and it was so easy and my heist is

00:24:00.040 simple because heists in real life are very simple I had a heist expert Anthony Amore he's the head

00:24:06.400 of security the Isabella Gardner Museum you know which is they're still trying to recover the art

00:24:11.580 from one of the biggest art heists ever in the 90s.

00:24:14.860 And so Anthony actually said that I had written

00:24:18.020 one of the most realistic heists he's ever read because...

00:24:22.800 And it's simplicity, probably, right?

00:24:24.280 It's simple and it's real and also rational 1.00

00:24:27.640 because women are rational. 1.00

00:24:31.260 Tell us more about the modern day timeline. 1.00

00:24:34.460 Yeah, the modern day timeline takes place in Paris,

00:24:37.100 modern day timeline of Parisian heist.

00:24:38.580 And it's about three struggling art students who are really, you know, they're having a

00:24:44.540 hard time because it's difficult to be an artist.

00:24:47.620 It's more difficult to be a woman artist.

00:24:49.560 And one of the threads that runs through the book is what is art?

00:24:53.740 What makes art famous?

00:24:55.480 What elevates an artist to the level of greatness? 1.00

00:24:58.380 And let's be honest, it's often privilege and money, things that women do not have and 0.99

00:25:02.840 have not had in spades. 0.68

00:25:04.580 So these young artists are struggling.

00:25:05.960 one of them is cleaning apartments and she's cleaning the apartment of the widow of one of

00:25:11.220 the largest art dealing families in the world like these multi-billionaire art art dealers who

00:25:17.640 control the entire art market and there's about three or four families that are like this and

00:25:22.500 the widow has been written out of the wills written out of the company and she recruits

00:25:29.640 this young struggling artist who's from philadelphia by the way who was inspired by the

00:25:34.180 Philadelphia Museum of Art to go to Paris and be an artist. Okay, one more quick break here before

00:25:40.920 we start talking about what might just be the sexiest scene I've ever written.

00:25:54.020 And we're back. There's a very sexy scene in a museum. There's a very sexy scene in the Louvre.

00:25:59.880 Like this is one of the spiciest scenes I've ever written. You did a good job. It takes place. 1.00

00:26:04.160 place in the Louvre people she recruits these young women to pull off a heist to try to take

00:26:10.780 down her terrible family and it's just it's it's a lot of fun both timelines are great they come

00:26:17.780 together at the end it's a romp it's a great book I love it I mean I I love Paris I was not able to

00:26:25.780 join you on the Paris trip last year can you are you coming to Paris this year I'm working on it

00:26:30.580 because john is going to be out of town that week so we are we are just hire someone to watch we

00:26:35.500 have to yeah we have to move mountains yeah but i love paris i also love before i go to paris

00:26:41.260 reading paris books if anybody if anybody has a trip to paris coming up like oh my gosh and it's

00:26:46.560 or if you don't this book is going to make you want to book one like i i told my publisher

00:26:50.740 that i think they should put a warning label on this book that says beware you know like the 90s

00:26:56.700 rap labels, beware. You will immediately book a trip to Paris. But they didn't do that, which I

00:27:04.940 think was a missed opportunity for them. Well, one thing we talk about a lot on the Get a Life

00:27:10.280 podcast is women's wellbeing, obviously. One really important pathway to wellbeing is the 1.00

00:27:18.440 humanities generally. Okay. So when you are, and this is where, you know, I, you know, my background

00:27:24.900 as an attorney. I coached a lot of attorneys and professional women who are cynical, just generally, 0.90

00:27:31.200 they literally are cynical and pessimistic for a living, right? Like it's gold star every time 0.99

00:27:36.180 they spot a problem. So when I say to them, you know, interacting with the humanities is actually

00:27:43.460 really important for your wellbeing. They're like, I roll. Well, you know, ignore that at your own

00:27:49.580 apparel there are so many studies that actually say going to the symphony is it's incredibly good

00:27:55.400 for your cortisol going to a museum okay so this is where this is this is where I'm going here

00:28:00.860 so just surrounding yourself by beautiful works of art right that that awe that just that experience

00:28:08.860 of perspective shift that you would you would have when you are walking through it doesn't

00:28:13.460 have to be the Louvre it can be your local like I'm in Nashville the Frist had a beautiful

00:28:18.120 impressionist exhibit a couple of months ago. It was gorgeous. And exposing yourself to art is so

00:28:25.400 good. I mean, for so many different facets of your well-being, it really is. So as you were

00:28:31.280 preparing for this novel, I imagine you did a lot of art viewing, like looking at consuming a lot

00:28:36.780 of art. How's that go? Well, yeah. I mean, first off, I spent a lot of time at the Philadelphia

00:28:41.040 Museum of Art, they have a sunflowers. And, you know, I talk in the book, you're never going to

00:28:48.360 see Van Gogh's the same again, but you're also going to look at art differently. Like I really

00:28:53.020 spent a lot of time with art historians and in museums to try to make the art come alive in new

00:28:58.580 ways for people, which is fun. And so yeah, Philadelphia Museum of Art, we have a sunflowers.

00:29:04.400 There's many, many sunflowers. Van Gogh painted, you know, more than a dozen of them. And we

00:29:10.720 actually have two right now in the in philly because one has been sent over from europe and

00:29:16.100 i'm going to see them this afternoon which is super exciting i started there and then i was

00:29:20.400 writing in earnest over in paris so i just sat with my laptop in the in the orsay which i always

00:29:27.340 say wrong and people are correcting me and i'm like shut up okay like i'm doing my best is that

00:29:30.840 how you say it i think i don't know people keep correcting me i don't say i don't even try to say

00:29:35.900 museum anymore no so I spent some time I spent a lot of time in the Orsay a lot of time in the

00:29:43.120 Louvre and then I also went out to Averre which is where Vincent spent his last few months and

00:29:49.040 furiously painted more than 70 paintings to see the original places that he he was painting and

00:29:56.700 for me I always want place to feel like another character in the book and in this one obviously I

00:30:03.360 wanted it to be Paris. There's a side trip to Aver. And then we're also in the Netherlands.

00:30:08.200 And I also, I was in Amsterdam doing research. We went to the Rix Museum. We went to the Van

00:30:13.180 Gogh Museum. And then the Van Gogh Museum library gave me access to read Joe's original diaries

00:30:19.220 on microfilm. So there was a lot of research that went into this.

00:30:23.140 Wow. That's incredible. Art and, and like a curiosity about art.

00:30:29.000 Yes.

00:30:29.260 That's a fabulous hobby that you have actually developed without even knowing it.

00:30:32.140 which I've actually cultivated. Totally. Totally. Yeah. And my kids also love art. See what happens?

00:30:37.540 I have another hobby. There's one more hobby. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. So you have a busy summer

00:30:44.500 coming up. Oh my God. It's insane. Yeah. You're busy. You're busy. So we talked in our, in the

00:30:49.080 last episode of Get A Life about these things called leisure constraints. What I love about

00:30:53.000 psychology is that there's a name for everything. So like things we know about in just normal human

00:30:57.140 life, it's like, that's called the leisure constraint. A leisure constraint is basically

00:31:00.700 something that prevents you from engaging in leisure activities. And there are so many of

00:31:05.260 them for women, time scarcity being a major one where we just, we, there was this survey,

00:31:12.200 the American time use survey from last year or perhaps the year before. And I looked at it when

00:31:17.600 I was writing my thesis, basically Joe Piotz, women have five to six fewer hours per week

00:31:26.400 than men for leisure activities. Five to six hours. Oh yeah. And basically that's like, 0.97

00:31:33.620 that's a good chunk of time that you could have many adventures and engage in many, many others.

00:31:40.640 So you, you have a really busy summer coming up. You are dealing with time scarcity because you're

00:31:47.160 busy. You're dealing with the ethic of care, which is another leisure constraint. The ethic

00:31:51.080 of care is just women feeling like they have to take care of other people. That can be subconscious. 1.00

00:31:56.400 a lot of it is subconscious. I mean, I think a lot of it's conscious. I wake up every morning

00:32:00.800 and I'm like, it's not just caregiving for kids. It's also man keeping, which I call it,

00:32:05.640 which is like husband keeping. Yeah. I say wifing. I'm like, I'm doing a lot of wifing

00:32:08.680 today. It's a lot of work. And sometimes that's harder than caring for the kids, to be honest.

00:32:13.400 It's a real mental load, which I do not think we're starting to talk more about the mothering

00:32:19.800 and the caregiving, but I don't think we talk nearly enough about the mental load of being a

00:32:23.220 wife. Oh yeah, totally. I have told you this a good jillion times. I've been married for 20 years.

00:32:28.840 Which is crazy to me. I know. Marriage is the hardest thing I've ever done. I have three kids

00:32:33.020 as well. And parenting is pretty hard, but marriage is the hardest. Marriage is harder.

00:32:37.040 Yeah, I 100% agree. So you've got a busy summer. Your time is scarce. You are caregiving for,

00:32:46.620 you're also, you've got a mom in Philly that you are just, yeah, you're not taking care of her

00:32:51.920 like physically every day, but she's there and you've got to be there for her. So there's a lot.

00:32:55.360 So let's talk about, Oh, hold up. And you've got a book launch. You've got a book launch. Yeah. And

00:33:02.820 you have a sub stack and you have a podcast and you're a prolific writer. So you're probably

00:33:08.740 writing two other books. I don't even know about yet. Yeah, it's true. It's true. All to say,

00:33:13.500 yeah, yeah. All to say, what are you planning to do for your own personal wellbeing? Like,

00:33:20.640 How are you planning to preserve your sanity and flourish in every way that you can?

00:33:26.280 And this is me encouraging you.

00:33:29.260 You're like, please do.

00:33:29.940 To come up with a plan.

00:33:31.040 That's what everyone.

00:33:31.820 No, I have a plan.

00:33:32.500 I have a plan.

00:33:32.920 I have a pretty good tour plan.

00:33:35.620 I have it down pat at this point because I'm going, I think I have 28 tour stops starting

00:33:41.860 July 11th.

00:33:43.660 If anyone wants to come see me, you can go to the Parisianheist.com, which we bought

00:33:47.680 after the Louvre heist because we're like, this feels like an opportunity.

00:33:50.640 and my all my tour dates are at the Parisian heist.com but yeah so when I'm on the road

00:33:55.560 I practice pretty hard self-care because I'm an introvert that can extrovert but it's still

00:34:03.020 draining for me so I go to my events and like even though I would love to go to like dinners

00:34:10.040 and happy hours and spend more time with people in every city I pretty much just go to the events

00:34:15.400 and then go back to the hotel room and order room service and veg out. And watching movies is also

00:34:22.740 a hobby for me. I think it can be a hobby. I love movies. My kids love movies. My son is now

00:34:28.520 directing movies with all the children in the neighborhood. That's for sure a hobby. That's

00:34:33.600 cinema. That's filmmaking. Cinema. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's different than like, like doom scrolling

00:34:37.940 on your phone or watching trash that you actually secretly hate on Netflix. Totally. Yeah. Different

00:34:43.380 buckets. And so and then I make sure that the next day that I get up and into the sunlight and

00:34:49.200 out of the hotel and I have a wander. So there's my travel, right? I like I don't think that travel

00:34:54.020 has to necessarily be to like climbing Kilimanjaro or going to Paris. I love exploring American

00:34:59.080 cities. And there's so much cool stuff in all American cities. So I get out, I walk, I have a

00:35:05.460 wander. I listen to a lot of audio books. So I'm like listening. And I work out like I make sure

00:35:12.600 that I do some workouts and I eat good food like I find like a great restaurant and I usually unless

00:35:18.120 I have a very close friend in a city where there's not a lot of heavy friend lifting because sometimes

00:35:23.220 there is heavy friend lifting I do a lot of it alone I have a lot of alone time on tour which

00:35:28.620 and also people are like oh my gosh are you so exhausted so many cities I'm doing the majority

00:35:32.800 of this without my children and so like they're coming to Milwaukee with me and they'll do some

00:35:38.100 like local stuff but I can when I'm traveling without children I feel like I have 19 hands

00:35:43.000 right I'm like I can do anything like no one's touching me so I mean it does tend to be kind

00:35:48.780 of a vacation which is lovely traveling with kids is a vibe y'all and I do a lot of it I'm doing a

00:35:55.980 lot of it starting tomorrow but yeah so I mean I'm pretty good at taking care of myself I also

00:36:00.880 you know I'm a person that loves a glass of wine I don't drink on tour at all because like I

00:36:07.380 desperately I sleep backs like I need about nine to ten hours of sleep and that wine is gonna mess

00:36:13.060 up my sleep so yeah so I've got a plan I go into this with like a pretty pretty strict regimen

00:36:20.040 for wonderful and you'll be in Nashville in October that's news to me that's exciting

00:36:24.360 yeah that's part of the plan so well I have another book coming out in October with Christine

00:36:28.420 prolific writer my co-writer we've done three books we're not like them you were always mine

00:36:33.680 and now I never knew you at all. It comes out in October. So I'll have another tour in October.

00:36:40.040 Different book. Okay. That, that works. Yeah. Where can everyone who is in my podcast feed

00:36:45.740 find you besides the fact that I post about you a lot on my Instagram? Like where can they find

00:36:50.820 you? Where should they go? So I'm most, I mostly post on Instagram at Joe Piazza author. I have a

00:36:56.400 sub stack newsletter called over the influence. My podcast is under the influence. And if you want

00:37:03.140 tour dates, you can go to theparisianheist.com. Amazing. Thank you, Jo. I love you. I love you,

00:37:09.420 too. Thanks for having me. This was great. Thanks for listening today. If you enjoyed

00:37:14.000 the episode, do me a favor and follow the show, drop a rating or a review, and take a moment,

00:37:19.880 seriously, just one second right now to think of a friend who would appreciate it

00:37:23.600 and share it with them. That's how we keep the conversation going. See you next time.

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - July 30, 2026

The Art of an Adventurous Life

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