Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - Get Out of the Waiting Room of Your Life

00:00:00.000 hey y'all joe here and you are listening to under the influence there's a lot of parts of

00:00:11.540 this conversation that really stick out for me but one of them i i just all right so i have not

00:00:18.860 stopped thinking about this one part of it my guest today jess ekstrom is related to bernie

00:00:26.340 Madoff. Yes, that Bernie Madoff. And her own family lost everything in his fraud. Years later,

00:00:35.360 Jess went to go visit him in prison, and she asked the question that everyone wants to ask

00:00:39.900 Bernie Madoff. Why'd she do it? And his answer had nothing to do with money. It had to do with

00:00:47.500 being a lonely little boy in Brooklyn who paid the other kids to play with him. And that answer

00:00:52.440 really changed everything about how Jess saw success. Jess is the author of Making It Without

00:00:57.780 Losing It. And what I love about our chat is that neither of us is pretending that we have figured

00:01:03.420 any of this out. We're both ambitious women, as are all of you. We both love our work, we both

00:01:11.120 have kids, and we both know what it feels like to keep chasing the next big thing. But we also know

00:01:16.800 that that next big thing isn't necessarily going to make us happy. Today we're talking about being

00:01:21.200 stuck in the waiting room of your own life, and why success never feels as definitive as we think

00:01:28.200 it will be. Also, because this is what happens whenever I get on the microphone with another

00:01:33.380 mom of little kids, we spend a lot of time talking about why toddlers are assholes and 0.99

00:01:37.760 whether anyone actually misses the baby years. Here's my chat with Jess. 0.98

00:01:47.960 Hey, Jess. Hello, Joe. I'm so happy you're here with me today. I have so much that I want to ask

00:01:56.280 you about. I don't even really know where to start, but you focus so much on a ton of things

00:02:02.080 that my audience is very, very interested in, namely women's ambition, how we define success

00:02:09.460 and how we even define ourselves in this crazy ass world of ours. That is, it's so confusing. 0.76

00:02:16.920 It really is. Some days I'm like, what am I doing? And then other days I'm like,

00:02:21.060 I am shaping the generations and, you know, coming behind me. It is always a tug of war.

00:02:28.300 always always it's true i mean and sometimes it's not even day to day honestly like this morning 0.85

00:02:34.220 it's minutes minute this morning i was so on top of my shit i'm like i've got another book idea i'm

00:02:40.640 gonna pitch the parisian parisian heist to like 19 different places i'm amazing and for some reason 0.56

00:02:47.000 this afternoon i'm like oh i'm no i'm done i think i'm done today even just like my luteal phase i

00:02:55.940 I feel like I want to burn it all down.

00:02:58.020 It's like cyclical to my menstrual cycle.

00:03:01.520 Sometimes I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm amazing.

00:03:04.220 And then I am like, what am I even doing here?

00:03:08.880 What am I doing here?

00:03:09.740 But I think that's like where this making it without losing it and so much kind of came

00:03:14.120 to be is what are the core beliefs I need about myself and the process in those moments

00:03:20.240 that I can tap into instead of we all have spirals.

00:03:23.740 it's natural but how can I have shorter spirals it's shorter I would I would like today's spiral

00:03:29.440 to be a little bit shorter and it's not even just I mean I like luteal phase makes so much

00:03:32.720 sense because like our hormones determine so much of how we are but for me I'm like did I not have

00:03:40.380 enough snacks am I thirsty right like it can change everything as that I always tell myself

00:03:46.620 like people are they think bigger I'm like no think smaller what's the smallest like change

00:03:53.320 or solution? Is it a snack? Is it literally just sitting in the sun for a second and letting

00:04:00.340 vitamin D course your veins? Is it just a simple like, hey, I feel weird in this email chain. Let

00:04:08.980 me just pick up the phone and call them really quick. Sometimes the solution is much smaller

00:04:16.020 than it might appear. So, so much smaller it truly is. I have this line in my book,

00:04:20.760 the sicilian inheritance that someone says you just have to decide do you need a nap a crap 0.98

00:04:27.740 do you do you need a nap a crap or a snack i actually like crack better let's do that you 0.98

00:04:34.780 need some crack yeah exactly exactly maybe i do maybe crack will solve all i haven't yet 0.96

00:04:40.320 i have a one and a three-year-old and so we are in it right now but like i'm telling you the things

00:04:47.400 that i am teaching them or their needs i'm like they're better at regulation than i am i want to

00:04:53.520 just lay on the floor and scream for like kick and scream for 30 seconds and then it'd be over

00:05:02.220 instead of going through my day trying to pretend like everything's fine and they are just much more

00:05:10.860 verbal and visible about their needs than adults are. And I am envious of that.

00:05:17.200 Oh, I know. Same. Same. You are really, really in it because I have three, six, and eight,

00:05:22.560 and I'm nearly out of that baby phase. And I just thank the Lord every day. I'm like, I'm so,

00:05:28.400 I was in it. I did this for nine years, right? And now I'm like, okay, now no more. No more.

00:05:34.640 I talk about this in the book, too, because I also have sometimes a deep sense of guilt for not loving it every moment.

00:05:43.580 It's totally fine.

00:05:44.560 Totally fine.

00:05:45.060 People, like yesterday, were on a hike.

00:05:47.540 My son – okay, we were – me and my kids, we went on a hike, which means it was like a 0.2-mile loop in the woods.

00:05:55.580 Yeah, that's what that is.

00:05:56.480 That's a hike.

00:05:56.820 Yeah.

00:05:57.380 We could see the car the whole time.

00:05:58.780 and they decided since pooping in the woods is acceptable when you're like camping and out there

00:06:05.820 that that was going to be the mission of this hike and so both my kids are with their pants down

00:06:13.420 and I am trying to wipe I'm trying to toss you know the discard and this couple comes by and

00:06:23.060 they are so sweet it is so sweet and they're like just enjoy it it goes so fast and I'm like I am

00:06:29.360 I am enjoying it do I not look like I'm enjoying this right now I love it I love I love it this is

00:06:34.260 so much fun and I understand people's intentions and look I'm going to be that person I'm going

00:06:40.620 to be that person in the future that's like oh just enjoy it but right now in this very moment

00:06:46.100 it's really fucking hard. And I can love them and be nostalgic for the present moment

00:06:54.540 and also be really grateful when they can poop in the potty and be like, thank God that diapers

00:07:03.000 are over. But I just, I don't know, I feel this immense pressure to just squeeze every moment or

00:07:10.560 else I'll regret it. And I'm still so early that I don't know if that's true yet, I guess.

00:07:16.680 You know, I will tell you, I had a very similar thing happen to me, but I was the one actually saying the opposite yesterday.

00:07:23.620 I was talking to, I'm like the oldest mom at preschool.

00:07:26.540 And so I'm talking to this woman who has a three-year-old like mine, but then also a 12-week-old baby.

00:07:31.660 And I was saying how I'm so excited that my three-year-old can almost swim because I'm done with having to constantly be in the pool holding on to a baby.

00:07:40.960 I'm like, I'm so happy.

00:07:42.740 And I said to her, I was like, people say that it goes so fast and you'll miss it.

00:07:46.460 But I'm not going to miss it.

00:07:47.700 I'm not going to miss this part.

00:07:48.800 I feel like I did it.

00:07:49.860 I did it.

00:07:50.340 And I will.

00:07:51.440 I'll miss.

00:07:53.020 Obviously, I miss parts of being in my 20s.

00:07:56.940 I don't want to be it again.

00:07:58.240 And like, obviously, I'll miss like groping a chubby baby. 1.00

00:08:00.820 But I'll take someone else's chubby baby and grope that baby. 0.52

00:08:03.880 So, yeah, I don't.

00:08:05.400 I actually I loved that part of my life.

00:08:07.360 I hated that part of my life.

00:08:08.380 And I'm not going to miss that part of my life.

00:08:09.980 I'm very happy to move on to the next.

00:08:11.440 And that, I think, is the key part. 0.63

00:08:15.540 No, I think that not enough women talk about this where I can be grateful that it happened and grateful that it's over.

00:08:22.620 Like, both things can be true.

00:08:24.200 Both things can be very true.

00:08:26.380 And like I said, it's been pretty much for a decade I have had a small baby.

00:08:31.060 Okay?

00:08:31.660 Yeah.

00:08:32.000 That's a long time.

00:08:33.520 That's a long time to have a small baby around.

00:08:36.420 Yeah.

00:08:36.680 And it just feels good to move out of that stage of my life.

00:08:40.940 Yeah.

00:08:41.440 it does and you know I talk about like because I bring this up when I speak because a lot of my

00:08:50.080 examples are around you know business but then parenting is such a good example of also just

00:08:57.220 how we turn our life into a waiting room for like the next version right yeah I would just say like

00:09:04.240 okay well once they can walk then it'll be great once they can talk once they can do this and I

00:09:11.100 did find myself constantly placing my relief, my happiness, my dopamine on a milestone that's ahead

00:09:23.020 of us. And I'm not saying that, oh, just enjoy every single moment. But there was never that

00:09:31.820 sense of, again, I'm still early in parenting, but never that sense of, oh, relief and this and

00:09:39.840 that it was always just this waiting room for the good part whether that's in my life parenting

00:09:49.680 career it's like oh the next achievement the next ambition the next thing and that's where making

00:09:55.160 it without losing it came from it's like well what if all we had was it like right now right

00:10:00.560 right now right now exactly how would that look different yeah well and i i like that because

00:10:05.980 again, you know, we hear so much about live in the moment, the present. And I don't love that

00:10:12.480 metaphor because I think it's kind of exhausting. But I do like the idea of get out of the waiting

00:10:17.680 room of your get out of the waiting room of your life. OK, that that you might you might not be

00:10:23.700 enjoying this the most, but also don't think the next thing is going to be the best. This is the

00:10:29.020 thing. This this this right now is your life. This is what you're living. I think where we get stuck

00:10:34.500 in that is when we think that there is like a singular outcome that's going to be a major

00:10:41.560 difference maker, a singular book launch, hitting the New York Times, you know, singular milestone

00:10:51.820 with your kids, a promotion, a title, something that's like, oh, once I can just get this,

00:10:58.140 then everything will be different and I have just rarely heard any scenario where that's

00:11:05.660 the case and then if anything there's just this huge letdown after you've like this happens with

00:11:12.200 Olympic athletes after the Olympics this happens with people after their wedding it happened with

00:11:16.820 like my dad when he retired it was just kind of oh well this is the thing that I thought was going

00:11:22.700 to be it. And it wasn't. So then what is? And I think as ambitious people, you know, there's

00:11:29.240 always a gap between where you're standing now and where you want to go. There will always be

00:11:34.820 that gap. Like you're never going to close it. So then you have the choice. There's two ways to

00:11:39.940 look at that gap. It can either be just anxiety provoking and like, oh, I'm behind. Look at all

00:11:46.700 this stuff I haven't done. Or you can look at that gap as just like an exciting playbook of

00:11:52.860 possibility. Oh, look at what all of these things that I can still do. And so making it without

00:11:59.020 losing it and what I've been trying to do in my career and with parenting is get comfortable with

00:12:04.200 the gap. There's always going to be more. There's never going to be done. And how do I see that as

00:12:09.620 exciting, curious, impossibility instead of a deficit because that's where I was living.

00:12:17.940 Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of women are living in the deficit and living in the waiting room.

00:12:23.520 And, you know, I think it's really interesting, too, how you just said, I talk a lot about,

00:12:29.160 you know, our work lives and our careers, but this analogy from parenting also fits. And I'm

00:12:34.200 like, because I don't think we can separate those things. I just don't. Like, I'm a parent and I

00:12:39.280 have a career. And those things are so intertwined in so many ways. And in a lot of ways, parenting

00:12:44.080 is so much harder than my actual career. And running my household is like running a business.

00:12:50.360 A hundred percent true. And I think like, I don't know, I just, I did this retreat one time

00:12:59.720 and it was like a silent retreat, which is also like my nightmare, which is why I did it.

00:13:05.980 That's my worst nightmare.

00:13:07.120 I don't want to do that.

00:13:07.680 Yeah, yeah.

00:13:08.620 But it was really cool.

00:13:10.080 But there was a part where we could ask questions to the guide.

00:13:13.080 And I said, how can I be in the moment while also having my edge on the future?

00:13:22.600 I mean, you're an author.

00:13:23.800 You have goals and aspirations.

00:13:27.500 So this idea of always being present makes me feel like, well, then my success and my

00:13:34.120 ambition will suffer.

00:13:35.980 and he gave me this analogy that, you know, again, you could roll your eyes at because it is very,

00:13:42.160 like, silent meditation retreat, but I still think about it. He was like, you could see an

00:13:47.840 acorn on the ground outside and say to yourself, this is a perfect acorn, or you could look at it

00:13:55.740 and say it's an inadequate oak tree. It's not there yet, and he said, just see yourself as

00:14:03.120 the perfect acorn, someone who is always in the process, someone who's becoming, and it's perfect

00:14:09.580 in its own right. But, or you could say it's an inadequate oak tree. So sometimes whenever I'm

00:14:15.440 like, oh, I'm not there yet. I'm like, I'm the perfect acorn. I don't have to be the oak tree.

00:14:20.000 I'm the perfect acorn. I really love that metaphor because my husband is actually trying to grow an

00:14:23.940 oak forest. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. We spend a lot of time looking for acorns,

00:14:30.280 soaking acorns to seeing if they'll sprout, and then growing them in our home in Erlemeyer flasks.

00:14:36.820 Oh my gosh. You know, I've never told that story before, and something was telling me to tell it

00:14:41.700 here, and now I know why. Because I'm an acorn wife, okay?

00:14:46.480 Acorn wife. Reality show coming soon, acorn wives.

00:14:49.600 I'm a reluctant acorn wife. Oh, yes, absolutely. All right. I mean, again, I could talk to you

00:14:56.080 forever. There's 50,000 things I want to get to. I mean, we haven't even gotten any of my big

00:15:00.500 questions yet. So let's take a quick break. And when we get back, I want to talk a little bit

00:15:04.440 about how your past, how your upbringing brought you to this point in your career. Let's do it.

00:15:15.840 Chew on this bold question from Dentine Gum. Is it ever okay to compliment a millennial

00:15:21.980 on their skinny jeans in 2026. Dentine, too bold.

00:15:34.380 Okay, we are back. So you have a crazy ass backstory, girl. Like, it's insane. And I want 1.00

00:15:41.720 to hear some of it because I think that it truly does impact how you look at a lot of this today.

00:15:47.520 And I think it also makes you such an incredible author about this and also person to coach people through these kinds of things.

00:15:58.400 Yeah.

00:15:59.200 When I was talking to you before we started recording, I was like, yeah, sometimes when I tell this part of my story, it feels like I'm telling someone else's story because that's how just kind of like, what?

00:16:12.980 Did this happen?

00:16:14.120 Yeah, exactly.

00:16:15.320 Even though it's been so many years.

00:16:17.520 So, yeah, when I was in high school, I had a very strange, very public incident with my family where I found out that not only did my parents lose all their money, which was super unfortunate for them, but they lost it because my mom's uncle is Bernie Madoff.

00:16:41.660 and so my whole family you know and thousands of other victims were like totally at zero but then

00:16:52.300 also we were experiencing this media frenzy and just absolute and utter betrayal from someone who

00:17:01.780 was I wouldn't say we were close with but was nevertheless like on our family tree that we

00:17:06.920 you would see at reunions and things like that. So that, I think I was, you know, I was young

00:17:15.380 enough. I was old enough to know that this was bad. This was serious. But I was young enough to

00:17:20.960 also be, well, what are we going to do about it? And just a little bit naive and curious.

00:17:30.360 So when I found out after it happened that he was sentenced to 150 years in Butner, North Carolina prison, which was about 45 minutes from where I live in Raleigh, I just had this wild idea.

00:17:46.540 I was like, I'm going to go ask him some of these questions that I have around why he

00:17:52.000 did this.

00:17:53.760 And this moment of like visiting him in prison, I talk about it, you know, a bit in the book.

00:18:00.840 But, you know, I thought when I asked him why he would give me all of these answers

00:18:07.160 that I wouldn't understand, something about the stock market or blah, blah, blah, you

00:18:11.720 know, things that I just wouldn't get.

00:18:12.960 But he told me something that I think really was a catalyst for everything that happened after. He said this crime he committed didn't start when he made his first bad investment. It started when he was a kid in Brooklyn and none of the other kids would play with him.

00:18:33.680 and so he would gather nickels and pay kids on the street to play with him and that was when he

00:18:40.860 learned that yeah admiration and approval can be bought and i i think i just walked out of that

00:18:51.720 prison that day and just was like that will not be me i just saw the deep cost of chasing

00:19:01.840 external validation at you know no matter what it what the expense was so yeah that's my story

00:19:12.120 which is i mean like i said it's a bonkers banana story okay yeah but also so i mean that one's

00:19:21.160 gonna stay with me that when when i learned that it could be bought right and and it's crazy because

00:19:28.500 we are literally living that today in like such an extreme in in the most extreme version of versions

00:19:34.520 yeah yeah yeah for sure and so you know after that I went on to start my first company called

00:19:42.360 Headbands of Hope you know I was interning for Make-A-Wish seeing a lot of kids lose their hair

00:19:47.700 to chemotherapy and love to wear headbands as opposed to wigs or hats and you know I think if

00:19:53.100 I'm being honest, I was on this speed of I'm going to do something so great with my life that

00:19:59.160 it's going to basically cover up both emotionally and financially what just happened. And I wouldn't

00:20:07.560 say it covered it up, but it went pretty damn well. And we did millions and donated a ton of

00:20:13.740 headbands and ended up doing headbands for like the NBA, the WNBA and all these amazing things.

00:20:19.040 and then I would catch myself just at this full sprint being like are we there yet did I do it

00:20:26.260 is it is it good enough um and then probably also am I good enough am I oh for sure it was

00:20:34.300 synonymous I mean what my output what my work was was synonymous to my self-worth I was the product

00:20:43.380 And so sales were high. I was high. Sales were low. I was low. Like big win. I was euphoric. Didn't get a store that we were supposed to get into. I was crushed. And I just realized like how emotionally taxing and also not effective it is to tie your self-worth to what you create.

00:21:07.480 and then when I became a speaker and started speaking and then eventually started mic drop

00:21:15.300 workshop where we help other women become professional speakers I kind of vowed to

00:21:20.180 myself that I would never do that again be so like tie my well-being and my self-worth to

00:21:29.560 just rigid outcomes. And I got so much better at my job and what I was creating because I was

00:21:38.800 able to listen to feedback without absolutely losing my shit. I was able to make it about 0.99

00:21:46.360 the work and not about me. I was able to create a team that I had healthy boundaries with instead

00:21:54.700 of just begging them to like me and started to make a lot of changes that, you know, when

00:22:01.700 it wasn't about me anymore, that it just started to really pay off.

00:22:05.140 But it was, I mean, a work in progress for sure.

00:22:10.240 Well, I think that we're all a work in progress.

00:22:12.320 And I think that, you know, even if Bernie Madoff were not our relative, we still inherit

00:22:21.700 so many stories about what is success, what is ambition, and how do we create our own sphere

00:22:30.980 of trust and build our own reputation. And so I think everyone can relate to that,

00:22:37.880 even if they are not Bernie adjacent. Oh, for sure. I think the reality is,

00:22:45.420 is that we're all built to belong. I mean, we are hardwired to want to be liked by everyone around

00:22:51.340 us, even in like the cavemen era, it was, we were more likely to survive if we were liked.

00:22:58.860 If we were a part of a group, it meant we had access to food, water, and shelter. But nowadays

00:23:04.600 in 2026, that feeling, the intensity of it hasn't changed. And so our nervous system has the same

00:23:13.420 reaction to being like, from being chased by a woolly mammoth to getting like a passive aggressive

00:23:19.080 Slack message. And everything is just a deep wondering of, am I liked? What is my place

00:23:28.580 in this? And so when I was, and I say this a lot easier said than done, but I mean, one of the

00:23:37.980 frameworks that I teach in Mic Drop Workshop is like, it's called a transformation promise.

00:23:42.860 And so I have everyone do a visualization around after you speak, not what you say,

00:23:48.040 But after you speak and you imagine your audience, like going to their cars, calling their spouse, going back to work, what is it that you want them to think, feel and do differently? And then whatever that transformation is, that promise, that's how we build your talk. Because what that does is it takes it off of, I'm going to go over there and tell my story. I'm going to share my truth to there's an aftermath for someone else that I want to create.

00:24:12.880 And so it's so much about removing your, you know, emotion to the outcomes is about making it about the person on the other side and not about you.

00:24:29.940 I like that a lot, but it also does have to be so much about us.

00:24:34.600 We can't completely remove ourselves from it, though, right?

00:24:38.220 Well, tell me what tell me a bit more about that question.

00:24:42.880 What do you mean, like, completely remove yourself from it?

00:24:45.780 Well, I mean, I...

00:24:47.220 Ego?

00:24:48.000 Yeah, getting the ego out of it, which is clearly my problem.

00:24:51.920 And, you know, so much of writing books and creating content and building an audience

00:24:57.700 and making an audience, you know, respond to you, especially when you're doing a talk,

00:25:03.120 is so tied up in your ego.

00:25:06.000 And I think some of it still has to be, too.

00:25:08.820 Just a bit of it, right?

00:25:10.600 Otherwise, I don't know if we'd keep doing the things that we do.

00:25:15.100 I think it's a ratio.

00:25:16.640 You know, it's that's what I'm getting at, I think.

00:25:18.680 Yeah, it's a ratio.

00:25:20.120 And I think it's different for everyone.

00:25:21.400 I think we have to find our ratio.

00:25:23.560 Finding your ratio for sure.

00:25:25.540 But most of our ratios are, again, programmed to be way more about us.

00:25:33.060 Let's just take, you know, publishing a book, for example, which you and I are both doing.

00:25:37.960 We talked about this before.

00:25:39.180 were like, writing the book isn't hard. It's publishing. So I remember when I published my

00:25:44.420 first book and I was like, I don't want to talk about myself. I don't want to sell myself. I

00:25:52.080 don't want to put myself out there and push this. And another author was like, well, do you think

00:25:58.900 that your book's going to help someone? Do you think that someone will find joy reading your

00:26:04.860 book? And I was like, yeah, I mean, that's why I wrote it. That's why I wrote it. Well, then it's

00:26:09.780 not about selling yourself. It's about getting the book in someone else's hands that's going to enjoy

00:26:15.280 it. But in order for that to happen, you do have to think highly about your work. You do have to

00:26:21.320 think highly about what you put out there. And so I think that you're right. Like there is some gas

00:26:26.140 in the tank of you got to be your number one fan in order for you to do the things that make people

00:26:33.380 notice you. Yeah, no, I truly, I truly, truly believe that. I truly believe that I talk about

00:26:40.340 this all the time, right? I don't think there's any shame in promoting your book and marketing

00:26:44.380 your book or marketing anything that you're doing because this is something you've created that you

00:26:48.960 think is good for the world and good for people. And I also think it is important to be your

00:26:53.520 biggest fan. I also personally think it's important to marry your biggest fan, which I did. And that

00:26:58.020 really makes my life a lot better. And it is, I mean, it's just such a tremendous mindset shift,

00:27:07.460 I think, from a lot of things that we've always been taught. And what I really enjoy is how

00:27:13.360 you call yourself a walking experiment in balancing ambition and anxiety, because I also

00:27:20.300 think that we're all walking experiments, that we're all unfinished products. And thinking about

00:27:26.700 that, I think it's helpful. I do. I think thinking about it like that is helpful because

00:27:31.800 allowing ourselves to constantly evolve instead of thinking, as you say, that there is going to

00:27:41.120 be this destination that we haven't yet reached and instead embracing that arrived mindset.

00:27:47.160 And I want to take one more quick break and then I want you to talk to me about this arrived mindset.

00:27:56.700 okay we are back what does arrived mindset mean to you yep so there's an arrival trap that we all

00:28:08.780 have and if you've ever said the phrase to yourself once i blank then i can finally blank

00:28:16.400 then that's the arrival trap right exactly this is the waiting room trap that it's the waiting

00:28:21.480 room exactly and so if we are like setting like joy happiness fulfillment at a later date

00:28:30.920 then it's it can be a trap so the arrived mindset is seeing yourself as the perfect acorn

00:28:37.980 and it's saying like yeah i got a lot to do and a lot to go but i also can still

00:28:43.840 like myself right now and in order to do that you have to be like you were saying joe like the

00:28:49.800 walking experiment. And I was literally, I had an experiment with myself today. I was

00:28:55.600 in the, you know, running for a speaking opportunity and I didn't get it. And then I

00:29:02.920 just saw on Instagram earlier today, like their lineup and who did get it. And so I had this

00:29:11.720 moment. I was like, oh, this is interesting. I wonder, like, how is my brain going to receive

00:29:17.460 this information. And this is not the first time this has happened to me. There has been plenty of

00:29:25.260 times that I haven't got something that I was in the running for. And I was so pleasantly surprised

00:29:31.540 as to how I received it, because I used to think if I didn't get something and someone else got it,

00:29:37.860 it was, well, why them and not me? Like, what did I do wrong? And their win is my loss.

00:29:45.120 but today in this moment because I had my arrived mindset I knew I was good there's not this like

00:29:51.300 golden secret that I haven't found yet I saw the lineup and I was like my topic wasn't the right

00:29:59.420 fit not me or it was bad timing not that I was bad talent and then also sometimes I'll see someone

00:30:06.660 do something and I'm like oh their win is not my loss it's evidence that it's possible like it's

00:30:13.760 evidence that it's possible for me too and so just having those moments where you can say like

00:30:19.620 I wonder how my brain is going to react to this and then notice shorten the spiral and it takes

00:30:28.860 work but to recognize like there's just not this single achievement or single outcome that's going

00:30:34.900 to cure my ambition I'm an ambitious person there's always going to be something else or

00:30:39.120 something I don't get the more I'm putting myself out there so how am I how do I want to respond

00:30:43.640 in this moment there is always going to be something else and i am constantly like if i

00:30:50.000 hit the bestseller list this time if i do this yes but but i will also say like some of that

00:30:55.560 is useful right you know if you sell a certain number of books yes you have a lot more power

00:31:00.540 and control over the next book and yes the money does make a lot of things easier but i think the

00:31:06.680 thing that it's important to divorce is letting it define how you feel about yourself like it's

00:31:12.420 okay to be to recognize that certain things will be helpful an extra amount of money will be

00:31:19.360 helpful this happened milestones yeah they still matter right and it can be totally signs that

00:31:27.280 you're on the right track right i think where we get in trouble and what i think you were saying

00:31:32.080 is like when they are our final destination like that is it instead i i kind of take them as cues

00:31:38.920 of like i'm on to something here like i'm on the right track but it's not my final stop

00:31:44.060 i'm on the right track but it's not my final stop i like i like that one and i just it also

00:31:51.780 just boils down so much to giving ourselves grace right we are our hardest critics we are so

00:31:59.940 tough on ourselves and our culture sucks okay the hustle carter culture is it it's it has done

00:32:08.100 no one any favors. I think it's why Trad Wives became so popular, because so many people are

00:32:13.860 like, I do want to check out. I just want to check out completely when that is also not the answer.

00:32:18.460 Yeah. Like Ali Wong, I don't want to lean in. I want to lie down. I want to lie down, girl.

00:32:23.380 And especially, I mean, we can go like circle back to being moms. It is just crushing moms

00:32:32.400 in the workforce. And, you know, I've had this, you know, I've been on a book tour and doing 1.00

00:32:40.280 like a lot of cool shit the past month. And there has been so many comments that are like, 0.87

00:32:45.780 you're on fire. You know, this is, you're just like absolutely crushing it. How did you do it?

00:32:52.760 And every time I hear like a man asked that answer, it's like, well, I worked hard. I did

00:33:00.340 this. You know, I read that. I whatever. And I was like, I'm going to give the real answer to

00:33:08.120 this. The reason why I am, quote, on fire right now is because of the village I could afford.

00:33:15.280 I have child care. I have a husband who works for me and is flexible. I graduated college without

00:33:23.640 any debt because my parents paid for it. I have so many people in my corner that are on

00:33:30.400 payroll, whether that's a therapist that cleans my mind, a housekeeper that cleans my house.

00:33:38.020 And I'm like, if I was worried about putting food on the table or who was going to watch my kid at

00:33:44.060 3 p.m. while I had a meeting, I would not be able to take big swings. And so I think like behind

00:33:50.180 every woman on fire is a village she could afford it's true it is yes behind behind every woman is

00:34:00.480 the village and the support system and sadly too many of us do not have that village do not have

00:34:06.400 that support system because it is not ingrained in our culture and it just holds so many women back

00:34:12.780 and i i love your book because you acknowledge that and i talked to so many experts on success

00:34:19.540 and ambition and you know women redefining themselves and there's there's a lot there's

00:34:23.820 no shortage yeah and i think that it just doesn't always acknowledge that this time cost yeah the

00:34:32.200 time cost the lack of support uh and the lack of a social safety net doesn't allow for the majority 0.66

00:34:39.380 of women to do a lot of these things and that they want to do or to shift their mindsets right 1.00

00:34:45.500 because they're just trying to survive yeah yeah you can't like your creative ambitious brain

00:34:51.900 cannot turn on when you're in survival like it just it just can't and so i think it was interesting

00:34:59.240 i um uh was speaking somewhere and it was in seneca falls new york where like the women's

00:35:07.660 suffrage movement started and so there was this museum and it had this timeline that i swear i

00:35:13.820 like think about to this day. And it was every, you know, it was a timeline of inventions and

00:35:20.480 every like efficiency invention for women like vacuum was coupled with a new beauty expectation

00:35:30.020 or a new standard. So it's like, oh, you saved all this time. You're not sweeping, you're vacuuming.

00:35:37.040 But now like curlers are invented. And so the way your hair is right now isn't good enough. You got

00:35:42.880 to curl it so every time there was like something for women there was a new standard stacked against 0.97

00:35:50.400 it yeah and i think about that now you have to shave your legs now you got to shave your legs

00:35:55.500 i'm like well that's that's out the window but um we don't do that's done yeah uh i do it i do it

00:36:01.960 but only right below the knee and only in a very specific place you know what joe when i was in

00:36:06.740 middle school or no maybe it was like high school because it was like the first time my mom let me

00:36:11.600 shaved my legs, but she only let me shave to my knee. And I was at the pool with a friend and

00:36:17.420 that girl's mom like called me out on it. Oh no. I know. And like, you don't shave your thighs.

00:36:24.560 And I, and I was so embarrassed. I still think about that. I'm like, what the heck was wrong

00:36:28.840 with you? Like talking about a little girl, shaving her legs. Yeah. I hate that. I still 1.00

00:36:36.300 think about that when i shave my legs but uh you do yeah i know uh well it's funny my daughter i

00:36:41.920 was shaving my legs in front of my daughter uh the other day and she's like can i do it too and i'm

00:36:45.680 like girl do not be eager to shave your legs once you start this you are never gonna stop this just

00:36:49.720 enjoy your non-shaving time but then okay here's a question for you that i'm genuinely trying to

00:36:58.860 figure out because my daughters and my son are very curious it's like what i'm doing in the

00:37:03.060 bathroom when i'm like putting on lip stickers oh yeah you know whatever how do you explain it to

00:37:08.300 them like what you're doing oh that's such that's that's such a great question i i think about this

00:37:13.080 a lot because you know i'm very open with my kids about all of the things and so when my daughter's

00:37:18.640 like why do you shave your legs and i say oh you know it's a it's a thing that a lot of women do

00:37:24.100 someone some women like doing it some women don't like doing it i like shaving but then i'm like 1.00

00:37:28.660 But I usually only shave right up to here.

00:37:30.980 So I try to frame it with agency and choice of like, you could do this, but you don't

00:37:35.580 have to do this.

00:37:37.280 It's much more complicated or it's much easier than saying, well, when there was a surplus

00:37:42.520 of razors after this world war, they realized they could market razors to women as well

00:37:48.100 as men and then made us feel filthy unless we looked like slippery seals.

00:37:52.760 Oh, my God.

00:37:54.040 Wait, but I actually love that explanation for me, for myself.

00:37:57.560 but yeah i'm i'm noticing that too my daughter was like why did you paint your lips because i

00:38:03.040 was like wearing lipstick and i was like okay what is my answer to this because it's not about

00:38:08.260 beauty but i saw somewhere that was like um you can tell your kids that it's almost like you play

00:38:14.100 dress up i like to feel fancy sometimes this makes me this makes me feel fancy i try to make it feel

00:38:19.680 fancy or like i like i like this color with the sweater that i'm wearing so you know trying to

00:38:26.500 match it to things that are about me and or I never want to say this makes people think I'm

00:38:32.500 prettier or things like that. I want to make it about agency as much as possible. That's a good

00:38:38.600 way to like just kind of a rule of thumb to think about. I like that. I'm going to

00:38:44.020 steal it. Steal it, girl. Take it all. Take it all. We need, again, we need all the village. We 1.00

00:38:49.120 need all of the parenting talk and how do you do this? How do I do this? I don't know. I mean,

00:38:54.200 It is so it's so hard. I was talking to a good friend of mine who just had her first baby and the baby's probably only like six weeks old at this point. And she's like, is it always going to be this hard? And I'm like, no, it really. But this part sucks. And I'm so sorry. And I'm so sorry. The world does not prepare you for this part sucking so fucking hard.

00:39:12.140 it really doesn't and you know for me I with my first I also had postpartum depression and it was 0.99

00:39:19.040 like um when I was getting discharged from the hospital like after I had my daughter and the

00:39:28.120 doctor was like you know you might have the baby blues you might be sad for two weeks and then if

00:39:33.120 it lasts more than that you probably have postpartum depression and there's a lot of

00:39:38.120 resources that are available to you and i was like well can you is there like a pamphlet or

00:39:44.420 something because i already felt the lights just totally shut off like i remember the moment yeah

00:39:49.940 i remember the moment i was like oh something just happened in my body i kid you not joe her

00:39:54.960 answer was well you can probably just google it oh no oh no oh my god it was so bad and you know

00:40:05.380 it was just I mean obviously chemical but I also think just going back to you know talking about

00:40:11.660 ambition and and this book I think also becoming a mom threatened everything that I built my identity

00:40:17.800 on like of course it did yeah being spontaneous being productive being you know like intellectual

00:40:25.560 being able to just get on a plane and go on stage and say yes and all being fit in my body like

00:40:34.240 feeling like comfortable in my own skin and um that part i did not expect i just i don't know

00:40:41.820 why but it just totally hit me over the head where i was like oh for the past you know 33 years i

00:40:47.700 think is how old i was when i had her i built my identity off of these core principles that are

00:40:54.180 all threatened by this one thing you know which is a big alien by this alien that is living in

00:41:01.100 my house and you have threatened everything. So I just really had to rebuild. And I've had

00:41:07.260 friends that have had completely opposite and different experiences. And it's just I hesitate

00:41:14.480 to ever give advice around parenting because it's not one size fits all. It is purely sharing

00:41:21.320 experience. I think we can just share our stories. Yeah. All we can do is share our stories and some

00:41:27.060 will resonate and some will not resonate totally yeah and but for so long I think not enough people

00:41:32.820 were sharing the reality so many people were only sharing the I loved it oh my god I fell in love

00:41:37.980 right away this thing came out of my vagina and I'm like I was just tired yeah it was just I liked 0.96

00:41:44.480 this baby I liked but it was also wet and it was covered in white things and white stuff and 0.93

00:41:50.400 didn't feel like letting me yeah letting yourself um my husband and I talk about this now

00:41:56.720 it is okay if your entry into parenthood is a slow burn you know because I thought that it was

00:42:05.080 like again putting the arrival trap this singular moment where they put the baby on my chest and it

00:42:11.760 was going to be instant and for me it was a slow burn you know I always loved you know my child but

00:42:20.120 it was like to feel like oh this like that feeling that I thought I was going to feel

00:42:25.480 didn't happen for me until maybe six months into parenthood and I didn't hear people talking about

00:42:31.440 that nope nope same and also you know I feel really good now like I do have great moments

00:42:35.920 where I look around and I'm like this is everything I ever wanted yes same right yeah but like that

00:42:40.840 took a while and so I can hear I can hear your babies can hear them in the neck yeah can you

00:42:47.240 I was like, speaking of, he just woke up from his nap.

00:42:51.860 Yeah.

00:42:53.380 Amazing.

00:42:54.140 Well, I love this conversation.

00:42:55.500 I love your book.

00:42:56.640 And will you tell people where they can find you, get the book?

00:43:00.200 And just also, I want you to tell us your Instagram because you post your TED Talks on there, and they're really fucking good. 0.89

00:43:06.880 Oh, thank you.

00:43:07.880 I appreciate that.

00:43:09.160 You can grab Making It Without Losing It wherever books are sold.

00:43:12.660 Of course, I'm a sucker for local retail or a library.

00:43:16.760 So try to reach out to them first.

00:43:19.880 And then you can find me on Instagram, LinkedIn, Jess Ekstrom.

00:43:23.940 You can find my TED Talk on there.

00:43:25.540 I also have something that I really like to do.

00:43:28.260 Every Monday, I send out a text.

00:43:30.880 It's like a quote or a thought for your week just to kind of give you something to chew on or try.

00:43:35.980 Oh, my God.

00:43:36.520 Yeah.

00:43:36.780 Yeah.

00:43:37.460 So you can text me the word hype to 704-228-9495.

00:43:43.840 And it's actually me on the other end.

00:43:45.320 I go in and read text.

00:43:46.380 So if you listen to this episode, I'd love to hear what you think.

00:43:50.100 I love that.

00:43:51.000 So fun.

00:43:51.760 All right.

00:43:51.940 Well, I'm inspired.

00:43:52.960 I'm inspired.

00:43:53.780 I love talking to you.

00:43:55.200 Same.

00:43:55.780 The feeling is mutual.

00:43:57.040 Let's keep the conversation going, girl.

00:43:58.920 I would love it.

00:43:59.900 Thanks, Jo.

00:44:15.320 Thank you.

00:44:45.320 You

Under the Influence (with Jo Piazza) - July 28, 2026

Get Out of the Waiting Room of Your Life

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