00:03:44.880I'm delighted. I'm just absolutely delighted.
00:03:48.220Because our conversation today is a topic that just keeps coming up for me at book events.
00:03:53.720It came up this week. I was just doing an event at Folklore Bookshop in Utah.
00:03:58.840And a young woman asked me, she's like, why do you think that the trad wife checking out of the workforce aesthetic works so well on Instagram?
00:04:13.040And I told her, I just think it's because so many of us got burnt out by the girl boss era that we're looking for something allegedly easier.
00:04:25.000Of course, we all know that taking care of a home, taking care of children, taking care of a husband, none of that is easy, but they make it look very easy. And I just don't think that there has to be such a binary between, okay, you're staying home, you're a quote unquote trad wife, or you're a girl boss.0.94
00:04:45.580Why can't we have all the things? Why can't women just have nice things? And I feel like a lot of
00:04:51.520what you teach and you talk about will help lead us down a path to that. I love that question. And
00:04:58.740that was really the impetus of this from the beginning for me personally, which was, you know,
00:05:05.460I was so miserable in my, you know, high achieving, you know, dutifully climbing the ladder job at
00:05:11.820google and you know was completely burnt out having panic attacks depressed anxious all the
00:05:17.640things and i just didn't feel like there was an alternative and when i finally couldn't push
00:05:22.880through anymore and i quit my job with no plan simply um with the goal to try to figure out a
00:05:28.740way to do this whole career and life thing in a way that didn't make me so miserable um at the
00:05:34.600time this was like 12 years ago 2014 prime girl boss era the only other alternative it was really
00:05:42.320like lean in or lean out right it was like lean in general and then people being like opt out in0.59
00:05:47.480this trad wife way which was you know a slightly different paradigm but I just couldn't reconcile
00:05:53.240that because I felt so strongly that at the same time my ambition was something that wasn't
00:06:02.380a problem. Inherently, I just knew intuitively, this is something about me that I like,
00:06:09.340this desire to have an impact, to have a contribution, to express myself out in the
00:06:16.120world. And there has to be a way, there has to be a middle way. There has to be a third path that
00:06:21.500isn't lean in or lean out. That is something that I now call aligned ambition as opposed to blind
00:06:27.540the ambition, where it's figuring out what is, you know, the path that is following your own
00:06:35.940inner sense of direction to the path that is uniquely well-suited to you, in particular to
00:06:40.980you and no one else. Yeah, yeah. I love that because you're so right. I mean, especially
00:06:47.860the media and especially social media, they do make it seem and they still do. And, you know,
00:06:53.420I had my first baby in 2015. That was the last time I held a full-time corporate job was around
00:07:00.560then. Oh, no, I had my first baby in 2017. I got married in 2015, which is kind of like having your
00:07:04.440first baby. I had my husband in 2015. I had him. But, you know, that was also the last time I worked
00:07:10.420in my, you know, not even nine to five, my eight to 10 corporate job. And it did seem and still
00:07:18.920does in so many ways that it's either you lean in or you lean out. There's no in between. And
00:07:23.260And I was so burnt out when someone asked me this question. They're like, why do you think so many women who did the like the right thing, the thing we were told to do, why did they burn out? My answer is that the corporate world didn't change and men didn't change. And so we did all the things we were told to do, but no one else and nothing else adapted.
00:07:43.420I think so. There's two parts of this, and I think we can't have this conversation absolutely, which is what you're getting at, without talking about the systemic issues and problems. And I 100 percent agree with you. Like the way that we work is not working. The way that corporate world is set up is not meant to support. You know, we all know it's meant to support a breadwinning husband who has a wife at home. Right.
00:08:07.460And that's what it's meant to do. And it doesn't support people with any sort of alternative way of approaching their life or the world. And absolutely, men also didn't change. And there are so many other reasons why corporate culture and the way that work is structured doesn't work for women and frankly doesn't work for people.
00:08:28.320For people. Yes. I mean, it is also just people like corporate culture burns everyone out.1.00
00:08:33.220Yes. And I think there's two types of burnout. And one is the one we know about and is the sort of most quoted one that we typically attribute with burnout, which is more of a physiological burnout of just like my nervous system is spent. I'm exhausted. I'm just brain fried. I'm creatively fried. I can't work these hours. I need a vacation. I need a sabbatical, whatever that is.
00:09:01.520And the solution there is to do less, right? To like take a step back or to, you know, rejigger your schedule or whatever, you know, to quit or whatever it is. But there's another kind of burnout. And this is the one that is more interesting to me personally, which is misalignment.
00:09:21.480And this is more of like a spiritual and existential burnout where the solution there and the why the distinction matters is the solution there is actually to do more.
00:09:33.740And I don't necessarily mean just add more things to your plate.
00:09:38.240But I do mean adding more joy, more curiosity, more things that make you feel alive and remind you of who you are.
00:09:51.480the analogy I often use for this is like being a rainforest tree in the desert. I think so many of
00:09:58.020us did all the things we were supposed to do. We adapted this definition of success that we thought
00:10:04.100would lead to security and happiness and fulfillment. And lo and behold, we arrive at
00:10:09.940that destination and realize it doesn't feel like what we thought it would. And we are this
00:10:16.720rainforestry in the desert, meaning we may be able to survive. We are resilient, we're adaptable,
00:10:22.360but we're never going to thrive in that environment. And I think as long as you are
00:10:27.140doing work or living a life that is not aligned with who you are, you are going to run up against
00:10:35.320that misalignment word. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I really love what you write in the beginning
00:10:44.960of directional living which you first off you you talk to yourself at 29 which I want to talk to my
00:10:52.24029 year old self all the time by the way I have so much to say to her but you say for having been
00:10:59.440desperate enough and brave enough to abandon everything you thought you knew about yourself
00:11:03.900and about the world here's the guidance you were looking for and couldn't find and then to all the
00:11:11.360underfulfilled overachievers everywhere, you're not alone. It's not your fault, and you don't
00:11:17.000have to live like this. There's another way, and it's closer and more attainable than you may
00:11:22.160think. Why'd you start the book like that? It's funny, even hearing that now, you know,
00:11:28.060it's not something I look at every day necessarily. Oh, totally. It's so funny to hear you quoted
00:11:34.120back to you. Someone read a bit of Sicilian Inheritance the other day, and I'm like,
00:11:39.000did I write that? What? Yeah, it is a funny thing, but it also hits, still hits so deeply.
00:11:46.080Like it really makes me emotional to think about that 29 year old self. And also just to think
00:11:51.700about, you know, really an orient myself back into like what I'm truly trying to do with this
00:11:58.340work and what I care about and why it matters. So thank you for that. Also, it's a good, always a
00:12:04.560good sort of refocusing um I started the book like that because I think there are two well I
00:12:16.460started the book like that because that is what I think this is all about right this is this book I
00:12:21.420wrote for the under fulfilled overachievers out there who like me and I consider myself like you
00:12:28.300know, the OG original underfulfilled overachiever, think that it's their fault, that they or
00:12:36.140something is wrong with them and are feeling shame, which is what I felt about not being
00:12:41.940able to figure out this thing that feels like it should be so simple, right?
00:12:45.900It's all these like smart, achieving, competent people, women who are in the world.
00:12:50.920And they're like, why can't why isn't this clicking and why can't I figure it out even
00:12:55.380as hard as I try to like make this work what is wrong with me and that was the question for me
00:13:00.980was like what what is wrong with me that I am in this like quote-unquote dream job doing everything
00:13:07.940I set out to do in this company with like all these benefits and I have so much privilege
00:13:12.520and yet I can't just be happy the problem must be that I'm secretly lazy or just like don't like
00:13:19.900working. And I think that is the first and most important step before anything else is to realize
00:13:27.640that you are not broken. This was not your fault. And this was something that we were conditioned
00:13:36.180to believe because and for reasons that, you know, the powers that be are invested in us
00:13:42.800believing in this system that we can achieve our way to a fulfillment. And if we just follow these
00:13:47.240sort of linear career paths that are set out for us that require us to abandon all sort of
00:13:53.560authenticity or creativity or individuality in order to do them. You know, that means that we
00:14:00.620are just sort of playing by the rules of the game that, you know, the powers that be benefit from.
00:14:07.820And so I thought that was really the most important part of that. And then the second
00:14:12.340part of it or the first part I guess with the you know me at 29 I just oh um centering it in that
00:14:22.980vulnerability and just that truth of I'm so proud of her and I'm still impressed like I still kind
00:14:33.940of can't believe that I had the courage to do that, knowing psychologically, you know, what I
00:14:43.620was up against. And nothing else in my life from there would be possible without that. And
00:14:51.360acknowledging that sort of gift of desperation. Like, I don't know. I think the alternative
00:14:56.660worst path would have been that I sort of hummed along with low grade depression for like the rest
00:15:01.700of my life in that job. And the fact that it sort of escalated to a point that I couldn't pretend
00:15:07.000anymore is so I'm so grateful for it now. I want to take a quick break. And when we get back,
00:15:18.240I want you to tell us where you were, how you had become this this, you know, very high achiever on
00:15:25.240paper. And yet you were miserable and having panic attacks in a puddle of tears in the bathroom,
00:15:30.520because I think that so many women in our audience are going to relate to that.
00:15:44.040Okay, we are back. So the first chapter of your book, after we talked to your 29-year-old self,
00:15:52.040is that you're on the floor in a puddle of tears in a public restroom. You've got your Google badge
00:15:58.000on you and you just fled a team meeting to throw up. Been there, girl. Totally been there.0.73
00:16:04.660How like what kind of high achiever were you? Like, where are you at this point where you were
00:16:08.780just like, nope, enough? So I had always like done all the right things, checked all the boxes.
00:16:14.960And some of that was, you know, authentic in the sense that school came naturally to me. I do love
00:16:20.680learning. Um, and, but a lot of it was also, you know, the optics of it and what I learned about,
00:16:28.700you know, performing worth. Um, and so I got straight A's. I was the president of everything
00:16:33.600and, um, you know, doing the community service thing, the whole shebang. Um, and, you know,
00:16:39.240went to Stanford and, you know, got a three, nine there and like really like did the thing there too.
00:16:44.880And really was the sort of like Renaissance woman or, you know, that's kind of how I
00:16:49.640I thought of it and immediately having no idea what I wanted to do after graduating, being in Silicon Valley, just sort of fell into working at Google, like basically the day I graduated. And I just drank the Kool-Aid. I mean, it was a fascinating sociological experiment in hindsight, and they did an amazing job of making it feel not only lucrative, but compelling in so many other ways, like socially and just in terms of building a lifestyle.
00:17:17.620But I think I knew on day one that it wasn't the right fit. And yet I became convinced that
00:17:27.300the only way to be safe, secure to this was the only way I could be impressive in the world. Like
00:17:40.200I had to stay the path. I had to make this work. And I had to be like the youngest person managing
00:17:45.860a team and like whatever the other goals are in that and became so attached to this title
00:17:52.120that I didn't know who I was, you know, without it.
00:17:55.560I didn't know how to introduce myself without it.
00:17:58.300And gradually, you know, it wasn't like one day I woke up and I was depressed.
00:18:01.760This was like going on for many years slowly.
00:18:04.740And I did everything I could to like switch teams, switch roles, switch offices, move
00:18:10.340back to New York where I'm from, you know, sort of do all of these different things,
00:18:15.000trying to make it work and it was just getting unavoidable it was affecting my relationships
00:18:22.000it was all consuming and that moment that I described in the first chapter of this book
00:18:28.980was like one of the first moments where it became undeniable to me how far from myself I was
00:18:38.560and how sick I was um and that is why I started the book there I think so many women have been
00:18:48.520in your shoes we have uh you know and it's it's just really interesting listening to your language
00:18:55.180too about like I did all the things I thought I was supposed to do like we you know I'm 45 now
00:19:01.100I was you know in the corporate media world for so long and it's like it felt like there was a
00:19:07.260script. It's like, go to the right college and then get the good job and then climb the ladder.
00:19:11.880And I was also burnt out and miserable. And I did not fix it until, you know, like you lay out
00:19:20.720here, I added more things to my life, but they were the things that I wasn't told to do. They
00:19:27.980were not the things that I was told were going to make me a quote-unquote successful person.
00:19:33.140And that's often the first step. You know, it is kind of a form of recovery, like you have to recover a sense of self again, because in order to continue to show up in your life while sort of ignoring your essential self in order to show up in this in these ways that are performative and kind of masking.
00:19:58.540we really do need to start to figure out what do I actually like? What do I want? What do I care
00:20:05.820about? What does make me feel alive? What does, you know, in the language I use, I often call it
00:20:13.280the warmth test, right? Like what feels warmer and what feels colder? And so exactly as you're
00:20:17.580talking about, the first thing I often suggest is this isn't like find your purpose, right? This
00:20:22.600isn't. Yeah, I do not. I do not like find your purpose. I'm not. I do not subscribe to that.
00:20:27.780Yeah, neither do I. And that was a big reason. Also, while I started doing this work is that was the main paradigm for anyone like the alternative to lean in or lean out when they're started to become one was like, OK, find your purpose.
00:20:40.660But that, too, can become a destination. And we can also get to attach to that. And it also boxes us in.
00:20:48.920And the other thing is it backfires because if you ask someone, what's your purpose?
00:20:54.980Usually they short circuit, they shut down.
00:21:15.500um there were many i asked because there were many revelations along the path but that first one
00:21:21.120um what comes next is it got worse before it got better i thought i was going to be like screaming
00:21:26.920through you know from the rooftops like i did it i finally quit um and instead i became more
00:21:33.480depressed with this sort of like ego death and identity shift and not really feeling like i even
00:21:39.600new, like just like the sense of groundlessness. And I, you know, I want to be honest about that
00:21:46.640because people sometimes think it's just going to like be up and to the right. And it often gets
00:21:51.580worse before it gets better, but it does get better. And so from there, I did all the soul
00:21:56.780searching and all the external searching, right? I went to like therapy and meditation retreats and
00:22:02.180like TED talks and lectures. And I read all the books and listened to all the podcasts.
00:22:05.720And as I was saying, like, there wasn't this third way where I was getting a lot of like lean in and executive coaches who were saying that, like, here's how to climb the ladder faster or lean out or very like woo people who are like, hold these crystals and, you know, do this, which, again, I'm a big fan of that stuff.
00:22:24.760But I was like, I don't have an income and I need to find a job like now.
00:22:29.800And I don't have like 10 years in therapy to figure this out.
00:22:32.620And so I just started exploring by figuring like, what do I know I'm interested in? And at the same time, what I now call the not that experiment. What do I know I'm not interested in? So staying away from anything that didn't feel good and leaning into that which did feel good, which was truly radical for me at that point.
00:22:56.960I did not think that joy or curiosity could be a foundational part of my life.
00:23:06.340I thought they were irrelevant distractions to my, you know, ambitious path to power and influence and like a big career.
00:23:16.400And that looked like really small things, but eventually that led to a coaching class.
00:23:22.200And coaching wasn't what it is today, but I was still extremely skeptical and sort of like, what is this pyramid scheme? But I the language, the frameworks, I it just clicked for me. And then, of course, I didn't go back because I was like, well, this is too much fun. So it absolutely can't be a career or a way that I, you know, earn an income.
00:23:42.300And I will say the other crucial part of this was that I made a decision that I was not going to apply for jobs or update my resume for at least six months.
00:23:53.980And that was crucial because I knew I would get scared and just like take the next thing that came along.
00:24:00.040And I would end up in the same position on the floor in the bathroom doing the same thing five years from now.
00:24:10.160I really wanted to find another way to do this and felt and I, you know, I don't mean this hyperbolically, like felt like my life depended on finding a different way to do this.
00:24:22.340And with the coaching frameworks, I started to coach people for like a cup of coffee because it was in order to get certified, you needed to do 100 hours of paid coaching.
00:24:35.160So I like sent an email to a few friends and I was like, here's what I'm doing if anyone wants to be my guinea pig. And lo and behold, people were like coming out of the woodwork, you know, scrambling for sessions and then wanted more sessions. And I realized something, you know, I was on to something and I, you know, people's lives were changing. I was my life was changing and I realized I needed to give this a shot.
00:25:02.760And so, again, I gave it like another six months in this sort of launch and iterate
00:25:06.680experimental mindset that is part of what is now, you know, my directional living framework.
00:25:13.480And I don't know, I guess you could say the rest is history, but it really was this sort
00:25:19.840of slow and steady, one step at a time, but focusing on heading in the right direction,
00:25:25.660even when I had no idea where I was going or where the destination was.
00:25:32.160And the crucial learning there was really,
00:25:34.800you don't need to know where you're going in order to begin.
00:25:48.820So because I think that so many people get stuck in that I can't move forward
00:25:53.420unless I know exactly where I'm going, unless I have a plan, unless I know exactly what is going
00:25:58.440to happen next. What do you mean by there's clarity in motion? Yeah, so we, let me take a
00:26:06.700step back and talk first about the way that we typically think we need a five-year plan or we
00:26:11.020need to know exactly where we're going in order to begin. The reason that we do that is that we
00:26:16.420think it's more safe or more secure. We want a guarantee, right? We feel like that makes it
00:26:21.340safer and more secure. But the reality is it doesn't work. And here's why. The first thing
00:26:29.760is that especially today, there really isn't the level of predictability that you would need in
00:26:36.880order to build a five-year plan and actually follow it. We don't know what industries are
00:26:41.520going to exist. And we also personally want to be allowed to grow and change. We are not static and
00:26:47.620either. And so picking a destination and trying to follow your way there, even if you are able to
00:26:55.220get there, doesn't end up feeling like what we thought it was going to feel like. And the only
00:27:02.000way that we can really pick those destinations for that five-year plan is by looking at what
00:27:07.220other people are doing and therefore sort of outsourcing our decision making, like what looks
00:27:12.620impressive or what worked for someone else and adopting that as our own, which is never going to
00:27:18.100lead to, you know, authentic fulfillment. And the crucial piece is that fulfillment is not one size
00:27:26.180fits all. It is uniquely particular to you and no one else. And so what we need to do instead
00:27:33.040is live directionally, which is figuring out simply what is the single next directionally
00:27:40.060right step that we need to take. And the reason that that works better is, one, you don't have
00:27:48.500to predict the future. Two, you can actually make decisions based on real data and the information
00:27:54.780that you have right now in front of you. And finally, the last part of this is that we then
00:28:00.520launch and iterate. We test and learn. We gather information as we go. And so to come back to this
00:28:06.860idea of clarity comes in motion, we get the answers that we're seeking as we take these
00:28:13.400aligned actions. Each step we take, we get more information about what we want and where we go,
00:28:19.980where we're going and what the right direction is in a way that we cannot have that information
00:28:26.120when we're trying to anticipate where we might want to end up in five years. I couldn't agree
00:28:32.220more I mean I am a person that just keeps moving even if I have no idea where I'm going or what
00:28:40.140that is going to look like I mean I write my books by the seat of my pants I'm like the best way to
00:28:44.620get something done is just to make something and you figure it out along the way are a lot of the
00:28:49.280people that you talk to very scared of doing that terrified um as was I and my it makes sense why
00:28:57.200one would be scared. Like we have been totally conditioned to think that the responsible adult
00:29:03.620logical way, objectively right way of making decisions is by having these perfectly plotted
00:29:13.200plans. And you and you call this in the book a destinational achiever, right? Yeah. Yes. The
00:29:20.700destinational approach or destinational thinking. Yeah. So the under fulfilled overachiever is sort
00:29:26.980is a person who follows this destinational thinking approach. Achieving according to
00:29:34.780destinations. And there's and I will tell you, like, there's a lot of me in this in very
00:29:40.240disturbing ways. Like you have you have a sidebar of are you a compulsive achiever? And I'm like,
00:29:44.720yes, yes, I am. Are you a productivity hoarder? Which means you're like all you must always be
00:29:49.860doing? And I'm like, yes, damn it. That's me. Yes. And I mean, me too. I'm still, you know,0.99
00:29:57.540these still crop up for me for time to time, especially when I'm feeling, you know, scared
00:30:02.220or vulnerable or insecure. But what I say to people who are reticent about this and what I
00:30:07.840say to my clients is basically like give it a try. Give it three months or six months. Like,
00:30:13.640what do you have to lose? You can always go back to doing it the old way that's already making you
00:30:19.700miserable. What you're doing isn't working. You need to try something else. And I've never had
00:30:25.900someone in earnest try this, the directional approach and wish they, you know, and go back
00:30:34.260or go back to the old way or wish they hadn't tried it. Let's take one more quick break. And
00:30:42.400when we get back, I want to talk a little bit more about the directional approach, about like,
00:30:48.320what are, what are some good first steps for those of us who are a little bit nervous about,
00:30:55.460about approaching directional living? Okay, we are back. So talk to me about some of the first
00:31:10.580steps? How can I let go of some of this fear? As I said, I am clearly a compulsive overachiever
00:31:20.960and productivity hoarder. So the first thing that we want to do is recognize that this is
00:31:27.980what's happening, right? So even just by noticing like, oh, these are tendencies that I have and
00:31:33.440they didn't originate from me. I wasn't like born with this. This was conditioning and I don't have
00:31:40.480to do it this way, even if I don't know how to do it another way, or even if I'm not ready to do it
00:31:44.620another way, just giving it enough space to realize there could be another way to do this.
00:31:50.000And these are some of the things that are probably making me more unhappy and more anxious
00:31:54.700than more fulfilled and a more meaningful life. And then from there, we want to be clear on what
00:32:03.920alignment is and what it feels like. And so the first thing I do is have people calibrate what I
00:32:09.200call their inner navigation system. And this is because we tend to think that we need to think
00:32:17.080through our decisions, that good, responsible decision-making is made in our brain. And I don't
00:32:22.580care how big and brilliant your brain is, that's actually not the best way for us to make decisions.0.96
00:32:30.840Ram Dass had a phrase, which is, your brain is a wonderful servant and a horrible master.
00:32:36.640Or I think it was reversed when he said it. But the idea here is that our brain is great for executing on things when we have decided from our inner navigation system or our true self or our intuition, however you want to call it, whatever makes sense to you or resonates with you, what decision to make.
00:32:58.980And so we need to learn to feel into our body what feels warmer and colder.
00:33:04.280So the first thing I do is say, think of a decision you made that you know wholeheartedly was a right aligned decision for you.
00:33:11.240Maybe this is, you know, your partner.
00:34:17.620and free. It really feels like freedom. It feels like freedom and relief. And then we start to
00:34:25.940make decisions based on what feels warm or colder. And these can be small decisions,
00:34:31.480what you're eating, what you're going to eat, what you're going to wear. And you'll be shocked
00:34:35.920to find how many decisions you're making based on what you think you should do versus what you
00:34:41.400actually want to do. And that's what we're trying to move towards, what we actually want,
00:34:46.080what is true for us in particular versus what we think we should do or what we were told we should
00:34:53.300do or how something is going to look or be perceived. And once we start to practice and
00:34:59.440stretch that muscle of decision making, the interesting thing is that it doesn't, that works
00:35:04.920just as well for making a, you know, gigantic life-changing decision, like quitting your job
00:35:11.820and what you're going to wear today. And so using that muscle is the next thing that I suggest.
00:35:19.860After that, we want to use that same axis, that same exercise to remove things from our life
00:35:27.920that are colder. And the reason we do this first is to make space for the things that we want to
00:35:33.320add in. So you can do these simultaneously, but it's often easier to let go of things than it is
00:35:39.380to add things, especially if we don't know where to start. So doing something like a calendar audit,
00:35:44.880which is going through everything on your calendar and seeing what feels warmer and what feels
00:35:49.700colder and getting rid of anything that you can. Sometimes it doesn't mean getting rid of it.
00:35:55.000Sometimes it's something like, you know, changing a meeting, like realizing all your 9 a.m. meetings
00:36:00.360make you miserable. So maybe it's starting your day at 10 to the extent that you, you know, have
00:36:05.020flexibility in that or something along those lines. Making small shifts like that can have
00:36:09.980a really big impact and go a long way towards creating space for us to start adding in what
00:36:17.080is directionally right or warmer. And from there, we want to start noticing what we're curious about,
00:36:23.180what brings us joy. And it's important, as you referenced earlier, Joe, about to realize these
00:36:30.680don't have to be things that are directly related to your career. They don't have to have things
00:36:35.000that have a good reason or like sound logic for doing them. Even if you have no idea where it's
00:36:40.700leading, even if you are 99% sure that it is something that is going to quote unquote go
00:36:46.280nowhere, we still want to follow it. And again, these can be simple things like what books are
00:36:52.780you interested in listening to? What are the themes or reading? What themes are you noticing
00:36:58.020in like the Instagram rabbit holes that you go down. What conversations are bringing you
00:37:04.920the most aliveness and taking notes of those themes and kind of looking for patterns
00:37:12.280and kind of creating some buckets, which can eventually become directions that you start to
00:37:18.280explore. And through all of this, we're keeping in mind that this is we're taking an experimental
00:37:24.620mindset. So we're borrowing this sort of from the tech world, which is launch and iterate.
00:37:30.500We don't need to know exactly what the result is. And we don't even need to be quote unquote
00:37:36.380successful in the sense that learning that you don't like something is just as valuable as
00:37:40.640learning that you do. And realizing that the whole point is to move the process, to move the plot
00:37:47.060forward any amount. Because again, that's how we get clarity. That's how we get answers. And
00:37:53.200staying focused on just the single next directionally right action is the way we move
00:37:59.000forward. And eventually you start to build a self-trust and a trust in that process as you
00:38:04.640start to see how organically your more aligned path starts to unfold. So you have one very
00:38:16.960famous client. Can we talk about her? She's in the book. Absolutely. So you coached Alexandra
00:38:23.720Ocasio-Cortez and helped her get unstuck. I love this story so much. Can you just tell us a little
00:38:33.420bit about the work that you did with AOC? Yeah. And I love this story, too, because I love her,
00:38:42.680But also because I think it is such a like it's the best example of directional living in action and also what you stand to lose by trying to predict outcomes because she is not her path was not predictable in any way, shape or form.
00:39:01.800So many things had to happen in terms of where politics went and what the opportunities were in order for this to happen.0.98
00:39:08.440And she also was making decisions knowing that she was probably not going to, you know, win the election she was doing.
00:39:16.640But where we started was she came to me where she attended a workshop of mine and then we worked together subsequently when she was a bartender and feeling like, OK, I've been doing this for a while and I think I'm ready to do something else.
00:39:29.900I feel like there's something, you know, bigger that I meant to do.
00:39:34.240And when I say bigger, I don't mean necessarily more important or better in a values way, but she just felt this calling of like to have impact and reach towards more people.
00:39:44.540But we didn't know what that was going to look like. And so for us, it was really thinking about not figuring out where she was going to go.
00:39:51.620And we didn't even know it was public service, but figuring out what are some directions that feel like they could be warmer for you.
00:39:59.420And so the buckets for her, one was hospitality. So maybe going to corporate hospitality, which was an extension of what she was doing as a bartender. Two was doing something in entrepreneurship because she had done some work in a small publishing company before that. And the third was public service.
00:40:18.580And she'd been doing some things, you know, attending community organizing meetings, and she'd worked on the Bernie Sanders campaign.
00:40:25.780And so she volunteered on the Bernie Sanders campaign.
00:40:29.200And so she was interested in that as well.
00:40:31.400And what we did from there was, again, not try to know what the outcome was going to be, but simply start experimenting to feel into which of these was directionally right.
00:40:41.560So she took actions in each of these directions to get more information.
00:40:45.260So have some conversations with the people who might hire her in corporate hospitality.
00:40:50.300You know, have some conversations about entrepreneurship and what that could look like, or even just explore it for herself in terms of brainstorming.
00:40:58.220And then with public service, doing things like attending more community activism meetings.
00:41:02.580And through that process, it became clear that public service was really where she was feeling the thing that was feeling the warmest.
00:41:09.320But we still didn't know exactly what that could look like.
00:41:12.180That could have looked like, you know, being in a think tank.
00:41:15.020It could have looked like, you know, being a chief of staff for another congressperson or politician.
00:41:21.420It could have looked like, you know, running, you know, being on the team of somebody who's running for office.
00:41:27.760There are so many different or being a community activist.
00:41:30.800And the point is, we didn't need to know.
00:41:32.780We just needed to figure out what she was in.
00:41:35.540What was the single next directionally right step?
00:41:37.640And at this point for her, she felt this really strong curiosity and desire to go to Standing Rock and to Flint, Michigan, where there were protests and demonstrations happening.
00:41:51.920And there was no good, logical, quote unquote, reason for this.
00:41:55.760It wasn't like she wanted to go because she was like, this is going to make my career or this is going to tell, you know, this is going to get me hired somewhere.
00:42:02.340But it was where her curiosity was leading her. And we had, you know, she believed enough in the directional process at that point to understand and to realize and to believe that whatever that was, whatever the reason for curiosity leading there was going to be something that was valuable and important.
00:42:20.940And so, you know, she took days off from work and she went on this trip. And while she was doing that, you can see the reflection of so many things that ended up being important to what she's doing now.
00:42:35.300things like fundraising via like video. And I think it was via YouTube. And she was so successful
00:42:42.880at that. And, you know, just the way that she was able to connect with audiences in terms of these
00:42:49.300sort of complex issues and have really reached people. And it made her feel it really filled
00:42:55.940her up in a way that things weren't or hadn't been from there. And she really felt a spark
00:43:02.120of something that felt important to follow. And it was on the way back from that trip
00:43:07.900that she got the first call from Brand New Congress, which is the organization that
00:43:11.840eventually sponsored her run for Congress. And in no way, shape or form did she get that call
00:43:17.680and say like, oh, yes, this is a shoo-in and I'm going to be a politician for the rest of my life
00:43:23.300and I'm definitely going to win this election. That was not actually the point. She didn't even
00:43:27.700quit her job in order to do that. But it still felt directionally right. And again, we were
00:43:33.640following the path of following her curiosity and following her alignment and trusting that
00:43:38.440the clarity would come through aligned action. And so she kept moving forward, taking these steps.
00:43:43.920And obviously, we all know the outcome of the incredible outcome of her winning the election
00:43:50.180and being the youngest woman in Congress at the time and everything that has followed. And,
00:43:55.400You know, no matter what people feel about her personally, I think nobody can sort of or very few people would debate whether or not she is living or doing the work that is, you know, she's uniquely well suited to do.
00:44:10.200And that is has the kind of, you know, has a unique contribution in in terms of her actual role, but way beyond that in terms of the ripple effect that she's had.
00:44:23.960And I know that she continues to make decisions from this place of I don't you know, I don't think she's sitting there being like, I'm going to run for, you know, for Senate in this time and president for this or, you know, if those are things that she's running for.
00:44:38.960But in the spirit of directional living, it's really asking, like, what is the single next directionally right slip?
00:44:43.640And that may be exploring runs for those things, but it doesn't mean committing to them in advance.
00:44:50.440Well, thank you for, you know, giving her this framework, because I do think that, again, no matter what you think about her politics, I happen to like them, that she has made such an incredible contribution to the world with this new path that she has taken.
00:45:08.420And again, I think it goes to show that there's just so many different ways of looking at a path forward and so many different ways than what we've been taught. You say at the end of the book, what would it look like if kids were taught this kind of directional living rather than the climb, climb, climb, check all these boxes?
00:45:33.100And I do think that we are just overwhelmingly due for a mindset shift, for a time to explore different ways of being humans in the world, because the ways that we've been taught are breaking us.
00:45:49.580yeah i mean i couldn't agree more i think it's definitely time for a new paradigm and i you know
00:45:56.280think about this with my daughter all the time um you know she's very she's a toddler still so
00:46:01.580um we're not having in-depth conversations and god god god bless toddlers are hard yes
00:46:08.120career paths but um but i do think about it in this i mean i think about it in this context of
00:46:14.200parenting a lot, too, of just, you know, we can't we can't not being outcome focused of like, oh,
00:46:20.860the nursery school that I'm sending her to is going to determine what college she goes to as
00:46:25.540if I have, you know, any sense of like who she is or what she's going to enjoy or the path that she1.00
00:46:31.240should or could or will want to follow. And, you know, I think one of the things
00:46:37.780similar in parallel to how we started in talking about the dedication of my book of this sort of
00:46:46.320breakdown breakthrough concept which I'm now grateful for of like being desperate enough to
00:46:51.280rethink everything that I thought I knew I wonder and I hope that that is where we are or where
00:46:57.980we're heading and I certainly hope we're getting close to the bottom of things sort of falling
00:47:03.680apart in the sense that the world is different than it was 50 years ago. And we can't predict,
00:47:10.040you know, what are the stable jobs or what things is going, you know, what thing is going to be
00:47:15.440surefire. And in that context of uncertainty, I think the most important skill we can have
00:47:20.440is how to navigate life well in the context of uncertainty and uncertainty that was always there,
00:47:26.580But now is sort of undeniable, especially, you know, after this century so far, right, these past couple of decades from, you know, the Great Recession to COVID and to, you know, democracy and now AI and just like all of these things that are shifting so much.
00:47:47.300It's really forcing us to look at some of these things in a way that I'm not sure it was ever really working for us.
00:47:54.380But having that sort of definitive, like, it's definitely not working may, I really hope, steers us, forces us to, you know, shift the way we think about things and the way we're working and, yeah, the way we think about being human.