00:06:20.400In one video that came out back in June 2020, Frankie's 15-year-old son was saying that he had been sleeping on a beanbag chair for seven months after being banned from his bed for pranking his younger brother into believing that they were going to Disneyland.0.64
00:06:38.480That seems like a really dumb thing to punish your kid for.
00:06:42.860I mean, it's not like he came up to his mom and like kicked her in the face and called her a1.00
00:06:48.640goddamn bitch. Like he just told his little brother he was going to Disneyland and then he1.00
00:06:54.320didn't get to sleep in his bed for seven months. In another video, Ruby Franke refused to bring
00:07:01.800food to her six-year-old after they'd forgotten their lunch at home. They hadn't brought their
00:07:06.760lunch to school. So she just refused, refused to feed them, which, you know, again, not the best.
00:07:15.300In another one, she threatens to cut the head off of her child's teddy bear and take away0.99
00:07:22.680kids' Christmas presents when they're not behaving. It's the teddy bear head that gets me.
00:07:30.260i mean okay so that was actual footage of ruby telling her little girl that she was about to cut0.99
00:07:52.440her teddy bear's head off and it's like it's some real flowers in the attic shit right there0.79
00:07:58.820you 80s kids know what i'm talking about so you know none of this is great it's not great it isn't0.96
00:08:05.780and the channel was actually taken down earlier this year uh and she started a new project
00:08:11.900focusing wait for this because you can't fucking make it up on mental health yeah because that's1.00
00:08:20.480who you want curing your anxiety attacks the mom who cut the head off your goddamn teddy bear0.99
00:08:26.880just saying so let's fast forward a little bit what the hell happened to put ruby frankie1.00
00:08:34.420in the news a little over a week ago well
00:08:38.260it turns out that frankie's 12 year old son escaped from the house of her business partner
00:08:46.780where i don't know if they were staying it's very unclear why they were in this house but
00:08:53.060it doesn't matter. The 12-year-old son escaped from the house. He escaped, he ran to a neighbor's
00:09:00.580home, and he begged for food and water. That is when the neighbor noticed that there was
00:09:07.640duct tape around the child's ankles and wrists. Once the police got there, they realized that
00:09:16.240this kid was severely malnourished and that he had essentially been tied up with a rope and with
00:09:24.800duct tape and with, you know, whatever, so that he couldn't eat. A child was tied up and denied
00:09:33.500food, starved. Allegedly, this woman starved a child. The police went to the house. They0.98
00:09:40.220discovered another kid, a 10-year-old, also Frankie's daughter, who appeared to also not be
00:09:46.840very well fed, perhaps even malnourished, and she was taken to the hospital as well. Now, Ruby Frankie
00:09:55.960and her business partner have been charged with six counts of felony child abuse by the Washington
00:10:02.660County Attorney's Office in Utah. I wonder if this is the first kind of case that the Washington
00:10:09.700County Attorney's Office in Utah, the capital of Mormon mom influencers. I mean, I don't0.98
00:10:16.000know. That's speculation. Just speculation. Anyway, this story is so horrific for so
00:10:22.100many reasons. And I've got a lot of questions. I've been doing my reporting thing and I reached
00:10:28.440out to neighbors of Frankie's, but I have not gotten a response yet. Don't worry, I'm
00:10:34.460on it. I'm going to find out some tea. But I really did want to talk about this with
00:10:38.980someone. And I couldn't think of a better person to do that with than my friend Jessica Gross.
00:10:46.540Jess is a reporter for the New York Times. You might have heard of it. And I've known her forever.
00:10:51.160And she has worked at all the places that smart women work. Years and years ago, she edited a1.00
00:10:57.440piece that I did on maternal health care in Kenya, which was so good and has disappeared into the1.00
00:11:03.220anals. Is that the right word? Anals? It's gross. Of the internet. But Jess is just awesome. She's1.00
00:11:11.180a fucking wizard. Her book, Screaming on the Inside, The Unsustainability of American Motherhood,1.00
00:11:17.320is a must-have for every parent in the world. I buy it for all new parents, Ted and Evan,
00:11:22.780my neighbors. I'm getting it for you right now. It'll be in your house when the baby comes home.
00:11:27.680Yay, Ted and Evan and their new baby. So excited for them. Anyway, Screaming on the Inside is
00:11:33.200just coming out in paperback now, right now. And so that is a shameless plug for Jess because she1.00
00:11:38.500deserves it. I love Jess's writing because she does not pretend that being a mom is easy. Like
00:11:45.620so many of the mom influencers that we have talked about on this show. She shows the hard parts,
00:11:51.020the disgusting parts, the wet parts. We're always wet. Why are your mothers always wet? I'm drenched
00:11:56.980and shit right now. And Jess shows that. She shows the parts where we are all screaming on1.00
00:12:03.620the inside. And for me, sometimes I'm screaming on the outside too. At everyone. At like the wall.
00:12:12.380So I couldn't think of a better person to talk about this Ruby Frankie story with
00:12:17.220than Jess. Because like I said, it raises so many questions. But one of those questions,
00:12:23.580One of the very, very biggest ones is, what is a bad mother?
00:12:53.580I have, I have so many thoughts on, on Ruby Frankie and, you know, some of them are around
00:13:14.280the idea of what makes a bad mother who defines that. And also why are we, why are we all so
00:13:23.200obsessed with this story. I think that's where I want to start. Number one, we're so obsessed with
00:13:28.440this story because she was in plain sight. Like none of this was really hidden to viewers. If you
00:13:36.240were paying a lot of attention, it seems to me, I mean, I've looked at her content in the past week,
00:13:41.880even as someone who follows this beat, I wasn't familiar with her. And I think it even, I was
00:13:47.080shocked at how many followers she had and I know so I think it is people are gawking at it because
00:13:54.420it's horrible it is awful these kids should no child should ever be treated this way but I do
00:14:01.500think it's this juxtaposition of like you know she always looked pretty and she always presented a
00:14:08.520certain glossy exterior and what was behind it was monstrous so you know that allegedly you know
00:14:16.400obviously she has not been prosecuted yet of the crimes of which she is accused. But, you know,
00:14:23.240I think it's, it is that dissonance of this, you know, showing yourself as someone who is
00:14:30.880meant to be imitated and then having this, the truth of her mothering seemed to be so horrific.
00:14:40.280Yeah, no, I totally agree. I was trying to describe to people who hadn't watched her videos, who hadn't followed her, what she looks like. And she's pretty in the so stereotypical influencer mold.
00:14:56.280mold. I mean, it's as if someone called Central Casting and asked for a Mormon mom influencer
00:15:05.740in her early 40s. And she looks like so many of the other women that I've seen in the mom
00:15:14.180influencing world. It's a generically glowy, pretty blonde woman. And I do think you're right0.99
00:15:21.260that because she presented what was superficially a very aspirational lifestyle, the fact that this1.00
00:15:29.100was happening, not even that far below the surface, she was a monster to her children1.00
00:15:34.760very publicly on her YouTube accounts. But I think that that is what is bringing people0.98
00:15:41.060to this story who did not follow her before. Well, I think it's also important for us to
00:15:46.800talk about how followers don't necessarily mean adherence. So when you look at a follower account,
00:15:54.720you don't know how many people are, you know, rubberneckers, hate watchers. Engagement
00:16:01.260doesn't necessarily mean emulation. So I do think that is one sort of important thing to note. I
00:16:07.540mean, negative engagement, as you know, is a huge, it makes a lot of people a lot of money.
00:16:13.380but I also think that the two of us and I don't want to speak for you but as like secular east
00:16:20.120coast liberal monsters however you fairly secular I also that's actually weird just it's so funny
00:16:29.840because that's the name that's the name of the mom cover band that I want to do secular liberal
00:16:34.720east coast monsters yeah I live in a city on the east coast and it is not like that in the rest of
00:16:42.740the country. Um, and frankly, the rest of the world, to be honest. So I'd actually love to talk
00:16:48.880to, to some parents, um, in, in different locations to hear their, more of their thoughts
00:16:54.980on Ruby Frankie's story. Uh, because my social group is wildly, wildly outraged, but of course
00:17:02.940she crossed the line. She was withholding food from them. And I would say, I think that that's1.00
00:17:08.560a euphemism. She was starving her children. She was tying her children up and starving them1.00
00:17:13.060and refusing to give them food. And that is child abuse, no matter how you slice it.1.00
00:17:20.280And I think that that is also why we're talking about this. Another thing that really interests
00:17:28.880me, though, is this story is getting coverage everywhere. It's in both People Magazine and
00:17:35.340the New York Times. And yet there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of child abuse cases
00:17:42.260in this country on a daily basis. Much like we give missing white women more media coverage,
00:17:52.240are we giving this story more coverage because it is a blonde white woman and not a father,
00:17:58.520you know, not an uncle, not any other kind of caregiver? Does this story get more attention0.60
00:18:04.500because of who the subject is. I think it absolutely does. But I do think that anyone
00:18:10.580who had that many followers and was putting themselves forth as a parenting influencer
00:18:16.220and was revealed to be so privately monstrous, that would get a lot of press. But a person who
00:18:26.100did not present the way Ruby Franke does would probably not be a parenting influencer with that
00:18:33.100many followers in the first place, right? So it sort of all flows together. But I do think anyone
00:18:40.260who was even a moderately successful parenting influencer would definitely get a ton of coverage
00:18:45.800for something like this. And I do think there's just, I actually, I get really, what's the sort
00:18:55.460of word? I don't like it when people are like, oh, I'm sure you're a great mom who don't know me.
00:19:00.800I'm like, well, you don't know me. You've never seen children. Like maybe I'm a garbage mom.
00:19:05.960And that's why I've never put myself. People are like, you're a parenting expert. I'm like, no,0.98
00:19:10.440I'm a reporter and I'm a lady with a lot of opinions, but I am not. I can tell you
00:19:15.680journalistically what I have learned and what experts, you know, what doctors say. I can tell
00:19:21.260you what the studies say, but I am not an expert in parenting. And I don't ever want to be seen as
00:19:27.940such. Or, you know, my own motherhood. What I also always like to say is like, there's only two
00:19:36.040people in the world who can judge my mothering and they are my two children. And I'm sure they
00:19:40.100will have a lot to say. But like, I don't want it to be a public sport, you know?
00:19:49.640I don't know about you, but I mean, I wake up every day not knowing if I'm a good mom.
00:19:53.340I wouldn't tell you I was a good mom. I really have no idea. And I feel like I'm failing on a daily basis. I love your book so much because you remind us all that it is hard. And it's hard for reasons out of our control. It's hard because the world makes mothering harder for us.
00:20:15.740And I do have to say, though, because I wake up every morning and think, fuck, am I doing any of this right? Like, am I am I am I just garbage at this or maybe I'm doing it OK? Because of that, I wonder if the spectacle of watching someone else fail at motherhood is vaguely enjoyable for people because we're all questioning ourselves, too.0.99
00:20:37.400I mean, of course, there is schadenfreude to watching anyone who puts themselves forth as an expert in anything or perfect in anything fail.
00:20:50.020Like, remember, everyone was, like, very excited when Marie Kondo admitted that she could no longer keep everything perfectly tidy when she had a third child.
00:21:01.240I still think about it on, like, a daily basis.
00:21:03.020Yes. But when I was invite you and also your readers, your readers, Jesus, I'm brain dead this week because both my children started school.
00:21:12.360So, you know, I'm running on I'm going to say 70 percent.
00:21:15.840What I invite you and also your listeners to at least try to do, and I'm not saying that I'm able to do this a lot of the time,
00:21:22.520is just stop asking yourself in minute to minute whether you're being a quote unquote good mom, because it's like, well, what does that even mean?
00:21:30.440The way that I try to define it is, are my children loved? Do they feel safe? Are they provided for? And you have a lot more leeway in terms of like, oh, I yelled at them one time, you know, like these little small things that are, you know, you perceive to be imperfections.
00:21:53.100they just are not a moral they're they're just not a moral referendum on you every second of the day
00:22:01.440if that makes sense right it's the big picture it is your relationship with them which is
00:22:05.840developing over years as you change and as they change as their needs change as your family
00:22:11.180structure may change I would just always try to recommend people like not wake up every day and
00:22:17.840wondering if they're a garbage mom and just trying to be be authentic and present with your kids
00:22:24.260I want your words in my ears every day when I wake up well because I see I you know people0.98
00:22:31.240always want to sort of know like tricks or you know scripts and I'm just like I don't have those
00:22:37.700for you like I try to just be myself as much as I can with my kids and how invite them to be
00:22:44.520themselves. And I think that's what's going to create the authentic relationship that I hope to
00:22:49.440have with them. Well, and I think that this desire for tips for easy fixes is part of our cultural
00:22:57.540fascination with influencers, because they give bite sized advice that lives in your pocket that
00:23:06.640you can pull out and scroll through your phone and read when you're on the toilet and walk away
00:23:12.380with like a tip and a trick and you cover influencers in your book, Screaming on the
00:23:19.460Inside, now available in paperback. The best book that you can buy for any expecting parent,
00:23:26.040fuck swaddles. Don't buy a swaddle for someone in a baby shower. They're going to get 50 swaddles.1.00
00:23:32.020You buy this book, you buy Screaming on the Inside. This is the book you get for all new
00:23:35.620parents from here until the end of time. But you talk about influencers and I want to hear
00:23:41.080a little bit about what your reporting found on why we're so addicted and attracted to their
00:23:48.680content? Well, I think number one, just because it's ubiquitous, you can't get away from it.
00:23:54.480I've tried to like tweak my settings. I've tried to block people, but my robot knows that I am a
00:24:02.080mom and it will just continue to serve me the same blonde ladies, no matter what I do. And I think1.00
00:24:07.260people are like, well, just get off social media. I'm like, I'm a reporter. That's not realistic
00:24:11.420for me. I have to see what is going on, what people are talking about, what, you know, is
00:24:16.420a topic of conversation. It's where I get ideas. It's not, it's just not a realistic
00:24:20.320solution for me. And it's not a realistic solution for so many moms who find solace
00:24:25.760and connection through social media. So yes, like in an ideal world, it would just all go away,
00:24:30.880but that's not realistic. So I think just the ever presence of it, I think it is a self-doubt
00:24:40.560machine. So I think as humans, our brains are just not prepared to see so many context-free images
00:24:49.640of anything. So you're getting people's highlight reels. And even if you intellectually understand
00:25:51.120and again, another problem with all of this advice
00:25:54.120from influencers is it's often in conflict with each other. And so it's like, well, do I trust
00:25:58.080this influencer? Do I trust this influencer? And it's impossible to know. And so I think it's just
00:26:03.900all of these things added together that create an environment that even if you are confident in your
00:26:10.940own mothering skills, there's just so many opportunities to doubt yourself.
00:26:16.220So well put. So well put. And we don't need any more opportunities to doubt ourselves.
00:26:19.840well I will say so I mean the solutions that I provide in the book and that I try to live in my
00:26:26.540life are number one just like really curating your tiktok your instagram whatever so that
00:26:33.040if you if there are influencers that you want to follow making sure that they make you feel good
00:26:39.680about yourself and they don't make you feel like garbage and the second you feel bad you can mute
00:26:44.380them you can block them you can unfollow like there's just that you life is too short don't
00:26:48.780don't let them do that to you. And I will even say like, I've muted friends during hard periods.
00:26:54.460Like the example I always get on that is, yeah, I had a miscarriage between my two daughters and I
00:26:59.060had a friend, an old, old friend who was pregnant and had almost the exact same due date as my
00:27:04.900miscarriage. And I just couldn't look at her. Like it was too painful. I could see her in person.
00:27:09.540Like that was fine. But seeing like the imagery was just like, it just made me too sad. And so
00:27:16.260I didn't tell her that because she didn't need to know that like I want her to have her joy I don't
00:27:20.740want her to be burdened by like what I'm going through but like I just couldn't and I think that
00:27:26.220that's a really healthy thing to do so that's one thing sort of really curating the feed but
00:27:31.420the second is is also just having real life friends and they don't even have to be parents
00:27:38.960themselves but who are your like kind of emotional explosion friends is kind of how I think of them
00:27:46.680so our mutual friend Leia is one of those for me there are times where I was like it's usually
00:27:52.580actually my husband like I just want to yell at my husband like I'm just like it's and if I feel
00:27:58.240like I'm like this is actually kind of unfair but I'm so annoyed I will just call Leia
00:28:03.300because I'm just like I need I'm so angry about this dumb thing and I need to like get that out
00:28:11.980and so I'm I like will literally call it and just be like for four minutes I am going to vent to you
00:28:18.600about this thing that really annoyed me that my husband did and she's like yes and we'll just
00:28:24.620validate all of my annoyance and I feel better so it's just like having a couple you only need a few
00:28:32.500super trusted friends that when you feel like you're just so angry or you're so sad or just,
00:28:39.580you know, you need a repository, a supportive repository for your feelings, because like
00:28:45.000the internet full of strangers, they're not going to provide that for you.
00:28:49.920No, they're not. I love that. And I also love Leah and I have called her many times to
00:28:55.920bitch and moan about bad bosses and bad husbands. I mean, good husbands,
00:28:59.880husbands that are pain in the ass um and yeah I think that a saving grace for all of us is0.98
00:29:07.460real life friends I feel I feel like that it should be the new like best friend friendship0.99
00:29:13.040bracelet like instead of best friends it should just say friends in real life
00:29:16.960well I mean I also think always look around you and I think you can also project onto moms that
00:29:27.200you know, like, oh, they look so much happier. They look so, it looks so much easier. Their
00:29:31.420kids more put together than mine. And it's like, if you actually get to know them to any sort of
00:29:36.960degree, you will learn that their lives are not so perfect because we're all just like human
00:29:41.480beings trying to get through it. And I, at the end of the book, I talk about this concept of
00:29:46.540maternal ambivalence, but I actually think ambivalence is an important part of all of
00:29:51.340our relationships, not just with our children or our own parents. And it's this idea that about
00:29:58.160everyone, even the people that you love the most, or maybe especially the people that you love the
00:30:03.360most, you will have negative feelings about them. And that is normal, natural, and eternal. There's
00:30:09.820no way around that. And I think we feel so much guilt as parents for having those bad feelings.
00:30:16.120And if we could just absolve ourselves of that guilt and just feel those feelings and, like, figure out a productive way to deal with them without, you know, putting them on our kids, like, that will do so much for us.
00:31:39.080I rarely laugh out loud at books and multiple times in this book I laughed out loud.
00:31:43.780And so I, it's very dark. So people should know that getting into it. It is dark humor, but I absolutely adored that. And yeah, that's sort of, oh, and I'm having, I wrote about this in my newsletter, but I was so inspired by Barbie and the performance of Margot Robbie that all summer I've been just having a Margot Robbie film festival and watched all of these Margot Robbie movies that I'd never seen before.
00:32:12.860And so I really liked Bombshell, which is she plays a composite character, but it is a fictional representation of the sexual harassment scandals at Fox News.
00:32:42.380I know, I know. And I'm also a huge big Swiss fan. One of my friends went to go to a reading of hers at the Golden Notebook in Woodstock and got me a signed copy. And I devoured it in one night. I mean, that book is so fun. And I've also given it to a bunch of people. And the cover art is art. I wish I could frame it and put it on my wall because it's so beautiful.
00:33:07.980it's so good and what I loved about it too is like it's having fun like so many books that I
00:33:15.060read that are literary books I'm like this feels like vegetables I'm slogging through this because
00:33:20.700everyone's talking about it and I feel like I should read it to be a you know someone who talks
00:33:25.880like to be a smart lady who thinks about books and I'm just like this book was a delight to read
00:33:32.520And it wasn't like my trashy true crime that I read.