Unlearn16: Class is in Session - The One Where I Enter The Dragon's Den With Arlene Dickinson

00:00:00.000 class is in session hey everybody and welcome to unlearn 16 class is in session guys i don't even

00:00:10.400 know how this happens to me i must have horseshoes hidden in places i'm not aware of i don't feel

00:00:15.720 uncomfortable when i sit down so it's not there uh today i have arlene dickinson right here sitting

00:00:22.880 in front of me actually you're stone throws her way because you're in toronto right now aren't

00:00:26.500 you? I am, yes. You know, and she has been incredibly gracious and lovely to come on to

00:00:32.640 my podcast. Arlene, how are you doing today? I'm sorry for the hardship to get into the Zencaster

00:00:37.360 platform. Yeah, well, I think it was a, what do they say? It's a user issue, not a technical 1.00

00:00:46.120 issue. It was a user. First of all, John, the privilege is mine. You have been making me laugh

00:00:52.400 hysterically you are so not just funny but insightful and articulate and it's a pleasure

00:00:59.500 I I'm so one of the things I am grateful for is about social media and there's maybe just a very

00:01:05.260 few fewer and fewer things I'm grateful for but it's finding people like you and connecting to

00:01:11.160 people like you and and finding out that you know great Canadians are out there doing great things

00:01:16.680 So, yeah, it's my it's my pleasure. Listen, I think there'll be more great things on social media the more the louder people like us get.

00:01:25.560 Yeah, I honestly I truly believe that I've spent so much time and kind of accidentally on social media, you know, during covid.

00:01:33.440 And then now, understanding that rage farming and hate and all of that stuff just gets pushed, but it only can get pushed unless, up until the point, we start flooding the market.

00:01:48.880 The voices, I call us more in the middle, you know, like middle Canada.

00:01:54.940 We need to speak more.

00:01:56.140 We need to talk more because it's everything.

00:01:58.540 So it's so far left or it's so far right.

00:02:00.240 I don't know. I know a lot of people that are in the middle that love, that want to be fiscally

00:02:06.200 responsible or fiscally accountable and socially responsible. There's a lot of people like that

00:02:11.100 in Canada still. So it's just that they're not talking as much. And it's time we talked a little

00:02:16.260 more. Absolutely. You said fiscal responsibility. I want to start with a little bit about your

00:02:22.140 background. I know you've spoken about it. I mean, everybody knows who you are. It's an incredible,

00:02:26.980 you've done incredible work um because i was reading a little bit of your bio or whatever

00:02:32.080 and i and everybody's pitched on to this the the idea that you were using you'd maxed out all your

00:02:37.800 credit cards and then that's when that's all of a sudden when the tides changed you you bought into

00:02:43.540 this company and i want you to explain it and then everything for you sort of expanded i want you to

00:02:49.260 tell you tell you i've at least mac i've at least um you know gotten really good at the first half

00:02:54.380 that equation. So I'm curious, if I keep doing it, you know, Arlene, am I going to just push

00:03:03.960 over to the, I'm just wondering if it's a magic. No, I think, I mean, maybe the story is better

00:03:11.040 than the reality, you know, of how I have done what I've done. I mean, I always think sometimes

00:03:15.640 the folklore can become stronger than the reality. I don't feel like I'm done all that

00:03:24.100 much. I mean, what I've done is figured out a way to survive, I guess. And I've done that through a

00:03:28.860 lot of, as many Canadians have, through a lot of hurdles and obstacles and have been able to find

00:03:34.620 a way to, you know, get through my life by relying on myself a lot more than I think people tend to

00:03:41.900 do and believing in myself a lot more. And having said that, there's been lots of moments where I

00:03:46.380 haven't believed in myself. But I, you know, like, listen, when I when I first got divorced, I had

00:03:51.940 like zero money. I had no, like, I don't not, unlike you, I have very little education. I have

00:03:57.160 a grade 12 education. I didn't get to go to, um, uh, post-secondary. No, I I've, I've gotten some,

00:04:04.560 I've been very blessed by being given lots of great honorary degrees. I think that I've got

00:04:09.020 like five or six of them now. And my, my father who had a PhD in education was probably rolling

00:04:14.480 in his grade because he believes that you have to go to school to get anything. But I, you know,

00:04:22.920 I think it was like I didn't have a choice. People, and I had four little kids and I needed

00:04:27.960 to figure out how I was going to, you know, like put food on the table, you know, put a roof over

00:04:32.320 our heads, just get by. And so I did what I think a lot of immigrants to this country know how to do, 0.98

00:04:40.020 which is, you know, hard work, roll up your sleeves, get to work, figure out how you're going

00:04:44.840 to make a living. And, and that's what I did. And, and that meant, that meant maxing out my

00:04:50.160 credit cards and, you know, getting in debt in a way that I didn't know how I was going to get out

00:04:55.560 of. And, you know, I got fired from a job. And then I got an opportunity, because one of the

00:05:02.000 people I used to work with had started as a part was a partner in an ad agency, knew I needed a

00:05:07.260 job um said listen why don't you come over we can make you a partner in the company but we can't pay

00:05:12.120 you anything um it was just really they were on their last leg right they were on their last thing

00:05:18.400 so I thought I had nothing else to do Joanna so I went oh yeah I'll try that you know I'll go do

00:05:23.060 that for a while and and see and I and it was in marketing and I you know I'd worked in the

00:05:28.680 peripherals of marketing and television advertising and you know dated a guy in the radio sales team

00:05:35.980 Like that was the extent of what I knew. I sold TV ads and I dated a radio guy. So, you know, that made me an expert in marketing. I'm going to do that. So I tried that and I was good at it. You know, fortuitously, I was good at it.

00:05:52.120 And that was it. And then it just rolled from there.

00:05:54.720 No, it took me like two and a half years of not making any money and continuing to max out my credit cards and continue to, you know, like be, you know, dead broke.

00:06:04.860 Right.

00:06:05.080 It was pretty tough for a while. And then we just started to turn a corner and started to be able to make, you know, a living well enough that the business could pay salaries and things just kind of fell in place after after a few years.

00:06:19.700 but it, it, you know, the startup is the people that go startup is like, it's, it's an overnight

00:06:23.880 success. Like it, you know, it's, it's years and years before you start to get to a place where

00:06:28.440 you can go, okay, I can finally, you know, take a little bit of a breath of relief, but even then

00:06:34.400 Joanna, like you never, you never really breathe. No, no. Are you stuck in, okay. A couple of

00:06:40.460 questions. Number one, why didn't you give up? You, you were maxing out your credit cards. You

00:06:44.820 got this job, they're not paying anything. It doesn't sound lovely for two years. How did you

00:06:50.040 not say, that's it, I'm going to go get this job, or I'm going to, you know, whatever else you could

00:06:55.060 have possibly have done at the time? I've been blessed with a Teflon will, I'd say, you know,

00:07:05.780 like, I've got this, I've got this, I don't, I don't, it takes a lot to kill my optimism. Like,

00:07:13.240 I'm optimistic. I'm really lucky that I'm an optimist. Like I always try to see the positive

00:07:19.340 in things. And so I kept telling myself it was going to get better even when it was the worst.

00:07:25.060 Now, having said that, I also went through real bad bouts of depression and anxiety,

00:07:29.240 and I've experienced all that. But I still try to remain optimistic. And I think it's just

00:07:35.420 my dad's voice whispering in my ear telling me that nobody was going to take care of this. It

00:07:40.860 was my job to take care of it and so i had to i had to do it for myself and for my family and

00:07:46.260 there's nothing more motivating than figuring out how to you know to take care of your family and

00:07:51.440 so it was really just hard work and i i don't want to i hate that line where people say oh if i can

00:07:57.580 do it anybody can do it um because i also think there's hard work and then there's timing and

00:08:02.820 there's luck and there's you know there's there's people who will be are willing to help you and

00:08:08.640 And there's a lot more than just hard work that has to happen in order for these things

00:08:12.980 to, or for your life to, you know, kind of come together.

00:08:15.980 And it is a combination of community and, and good luck and good timing.

00:08:20.900 Absolutely.

00:08:22.020 I think it's so many things, but I think the, that optimism, and I've done a little bit

00:08:28.200 of research on it because there's, apparently it's genetic.

00:08:31.480 Like a good chunk of our optimism is literally genetic.

00:08:35.900 That makes sense.

00:08:36.320 When I say I am incredibly optimistic until like, you know, one Sunday every four months.

00:08:44.180 And then it's like I feel the weight of it because I kind of go, no, this happened for this reason or this happened for this reason or we'll get by this or we'll get by this.

00:08:52.760 Now, sometimes those things add up and they have a weight to them.

00:08:56.440 But they do say that people are born with a significant level of either pessimism or optimism built in.

00:09:04.040 And I agree with you.

00:09:05.080 I, it has to be that, right?

00:09:08.420 I, it is born in and then, and then you're faced with challenges.

00:09:12.600 The way you look at a challenge and something scary, that that's everything, right?

00:09:20.080 That is absolutely.

00:09:21.480 So you immigrated from South Africa?

00:09:24.260 Yeah.

00:09:25.120 Shall we talk about you?

00:09:26.440 No.

00:09:27.000 No.

00:09:29.540 What you just said is actually a very important point because running towards the hard things

00:09:34.880 is what I've been taught to do.

00:09:38.580 I have been taught not to shirk away from facing challenges.

00:09:43.620 And, you know, and sometimes you face challenges.

00:09:46.740 You know, I can be in rooms where I'm talking to people

00:09:49.480 and I'm super nervous about what I'm going to say

00:09:52.280 and my voice will quiver and I'll get, you know, really like,

00:09:58.120 because I know I'm being, you know, it's a brave moment.

00:10:01.320 It's a moment that I have to show courage

00:10:02.920 and it'll it'll reflect I'll I'll cry very easily things will happen where I'll you know tears look

00:10:08.280 under my eyes my voice will quiver but I still don't back away I still will force myself through

00:10:13.800 that moment and I think that was because I was taught that when you have a to-do list you always

00:10:18.700 tackle the hardest thing first always and uh and that's that's what I do I I go because then the

00:10:25.540 rest of it feels really damn easy after that right do you think and I'm gonna apply it to myself a

00:10:32.080 little bit because right up until COVID, I was living a nine to five life. It's funny that you

00:10:37.820 talk about education and don't get me wrong. I love education. The more education, the better.

00:10:41.880 I just don't think the classroom's the only place for it. I think there's lots of places to get

00:10:46.800 incredible education. I needed a syllabus, me personally. I needed a syllabus. I needed a

00:10:54.440 mark structure. I needed an end date. I needed people because I was a very in the box kind of

00:11:00.460 person. Like my mom was a nurse. My uncle was a teacher, everybody, you know, the nine to five,

00:11:06.680 I never even contemplated outside of that. And then I got divorced, Arlene. And then,

00:11:14.620 and then COVID. And those two things happened within two months. Yeah. And that kind of,

00:11:22.580 and then go, cause I want to, I want to ask you about your, you know, your divorce and having to

00:11:26.100 focus on your kids and how you did that because pulling that rug, I mean, COVID was a huge rug

00:11:33.460 that nobody even, at least we had all about pulled together, but pulling that rug and then having to

00:11:38.700 find your footing, it was life-changing in a way I am so incredibly thankful for, even though I

00:11:47.500 didn't even know I was going to make it to the other side of. Well, I mean, honestly, those are

00:11:53.420 the moments. In my book, Reinvention, the last one I wrote, it's all about that we shouldn't

00:12:01.460 wait for big moments in our life to figure out what we want and who we are. But practically

00:12:09.060 speaking, the majority of us wait for something pivotal to happen in our lives, whether that's

00:12:13.900 COVID, whether that's a divorce, whether that's a loss of a job or an illness or something has to

00:12:18.520 happen. And like even the country, what we're going through right now is a good example where

00:12:23.100 you have to have something happen to go, oh my gosh, you know, like I need to figure out what

00:12:27.900 I want and who I am and where I'm going. And, um, and so I think what happened for you is very

00:12:33.640 typical where you went through this divorce, which was, that's gut wrenching. That's, that's so

00:12:39.660 difficult. Um, and it, it, it changes everything. It changes your friend group. It changes your

00:12:46.160 lifestyle. It changes your, your sense of self-worth and your sense of being. And,

00:12:51.200 And so those things make you, and then add COVID to that, and now you're thinking it's the end of the world, it's the end of my relationship, it's the end of me.

00:12:59.660 It's like, and so no wonder, you know, we get messed up because we kind of go, how am I going to get through this?

00:13:05.380 And I think that's the whole beauty of what we get in our lives, Joanna, is that we can reinvent ourselves.

00:13:16.560 We can take those moments and wallow in them and feel sorry for ourselves and not change for the better, which is kind of what some people do right now when you talk about the country.

00:13:27.440 Oh, it's all the countries.

00:13:29.060 It's a mess and it's broken and it's horrible. 0.91

00:13:32.020 Or you can say things aren't great.

00:13:35.340 It needs to change.

00:13:37.000 I'm going to be a catalyst for that change.

00:13:39.700 And that's just like in your life.

00:13:41.600 I'm not surprised you came out the other side like as you have.

00:13:45.040 And I'm so glad you did, because look at the good you're doing with your life as a result of those experiences.

00:13:50.840 Yeah. How do we... Thank you. That's an incredible... That's incredible coming from you as I knock this.

00:13:59.580 How do we make this...

00:14:00.400 It's a podcast. It's okay.

00:14:02.520 I won't even beat that out, guys. You get to hear me knocking my ring nervously on the desk.

00:14:07.860 When I get complimented, sometimes it's funny. I like an attagirl. Don't get me wrong.

00:14:11.320 I like a strong attagirl. But when I get a really strong compliment, I immediately am like, what do I got to do something? How do we, can we? And because then I want to talk about sort of business life and being a woman in business, which is a whole different kettle of fish.

00:14:29.900 how do we manufacture if that's the case or how do we create a sense of urgency

00:14:36.860 or a sense of externality to force us to figure out who we are what we can do and how how strong

00:14:46.460 we can stand without the of the rug like you know there's a house is one of my favorite shows and

00:14:53.080 one of a quote from it is uh almost dying changes everything for about three months

00:14:57.560 So about three months after almost dying, you're brave. You'll ask that person out. You'll tell your boss what you think. You'll do all of these stuff. And then our world gets smaller somehow. So can we manufacture that? Or how do we get there so we don't have to wait?

00:15:17.980 um absolutely yeah i mean that not i'm not trying to plug the book here but that's exactly what the

00:15:23.040 book's about which is what are the steps we can take to figure out how we can reinvent ourselves

00:15:28.000 on our own terms without the stress of all these other things that have happened to us to make us

00:15:32.620 reinvent ourselves so you know and that requires a lot of things that people aren't comfortable

00:15:36.840 with it requires an introspection like we have to be able to look at ourselves and people don't like

00:15:42.220 looking at themselves joanna just like you don't like a compliment people don't it's it's it's

00:15:46.960 uncomfortable because the attention's on us. And it's even worse when you have to be subjective

00:15:52.700 and objective about yourself. You know, like subjective because it's, you know, like you,

00:15:57.140 of course, you have biases about who you think you are, but you have to be objective about who

00:16:01.340 you really are. And how we see ourselves is always different than how we show up for others. And so

00:16:06.800 I think that introspection is a big piece of it. And that's not something you do, you know,

00:16:13.080 one day on a back of a napkin it takes real alone time and it takes thinking and it takes

00:16:19.160 a willingness to explore what you loved about your past and what you want for your future

00:16:24.720 and again what humans don't like doing two things they don't like thinking

00:16:28.340 too much about anything because that might be uncomfortable and and they really don't like

00:16:35.020 thinking about their past they they we don't want like it's i'm gonna go you one further

00:16:43.060 we don't like being alone and we don't like being alone so there you go there's the time right I've

00:16:48.900 had a show called you know Arlene is alone I'm getting to it but that's the thing we you know

00:16:56.220 we're of an age now where we can embrace being alone like um where I do have a partner but

00:17:02.960 the idea that I can embrace being alone has only come at the hard 50 years whereas I were not 50

00:17:12.000 years old. I am 49. I shave off all my gray. You don't look 49 years old. Not that I should say

00:17:18.160 that because that shouldn't be an indicator of anything, but I would never have said that you're

00:17:21.900 49 years old. Listen, you're a baby. I'm 68. So I'm old right now. I'm catching up. I just think

00:17:31.460 that. So, yeah, I think you're supposed to say that I don't look 68. No, you're supposed to.

00:17:36.200 But then it would be a, it would be a reciprocal compliment that nobody was going to believe. So

00:17:40.920 was going to save that for later. But Arlene, you can't, you can't do that, right? Because now

00:17:47.620 you've just taken away the option altogether. I got nothing now. I think I look damn good. So

00:17:54.700 I don't want to need you to say it to me. I can say it to myself. You look damn good, Arlene.

00:18:00.660 I do think though that the being, it's so funny because a lot of people ask me because they think 0.56

00:18:05.400 I have magical answers, which of course I have. I'm just keeping them to myself. They'll say,

00:18:10.920 what should young people if you could give one young people and uh an idea or one thing to say

00:18:16.760 to them and my thing is always go to therapy and i don't mean that like go to therapy necessarily

00:18:23.640 i mean as a young person you need time if you're intelligent enough or aware enough to do that

00:18:30.280 introspection on your own you need time by yourself about yourself with no other subjective informants

00:18:38.440 directing who you are, because I teach young people all the time and they have everybody,

00:18:44.000 including myself, telling them what to do, who to be and how to get there every single day.

00:18:48.140 And then we get mad when they're 21 and they're not this independent, you know, beautiful,

00:18:54.520 perfect self-esteem image of themselves. Well, you haven't given them space to do that.

00:18:59.800 So there needs to be this space, you know, and we all want to have a partner early and we all want,

00:19:04.340 whether we want to get married or not that's not the point we we do like being partnered especially

00:19:10.160 at that age it gives us it validates us in a lot of ways it validates us in society it validates us

00:19:16.680 with our friends it validates sort of our people wanting us and somehow we need that

00:19:22.560 because that's the part that should happen when we're 20 but can we make 20 year olds do that

00:19:30.020 I think it's I think it's part biological you know there's a reproductive like there's this

00:19:37.320 whole kind of there's a there's a hormonal thing that's going on there's a heightened sexuality

00:19:43.720 that's happening there's as a result of the hormonal thing that's going on there's there's

00:19:48.740 societal pressure about what the norm is about getting married or being in a relationship it

00:19:54.380 It means that you're somehow whole.

00:19:57.560 And so I think this combination of everything that happens,

00:20:00.800 and then, like you said, in our 20s, I mean,

00:20:02.920 who knows what they want in life at 20?

00:20:04.600 I sure didn't know what I wanted.

00:20:06.920 And I didn't even know who I was.

00:20:09.140 So this expectation that we're putting on young people to have, you know,

00:20:14.620 nowadays if a 21-year-old hasn't started some sort of a charity,

00:20:19.760 Solve World Peace, you know, got three part-time jobs

00:20:23.800 and, you know, got three applications into Ivy League schools.

00:20:27.340 Easy.

00:20:28.120 They're failures, and the pressure on them is enormous.

00:20:32.560 So what would I, you know, you say go to therapy.

00:20:36.880 I would say something probably along the lines of it's going to be okay

00:20:42.060 because the pressure is that you have to know these things so quickly

00:20:46.660 and you have to determine who you are and what you're going to do with your life.

00:20:49.820 And you don't even know who you are, let alone what you're going to do.

00:20:52.720 I didn't start my business. I was 31 years old. Um, I didn't start my fund until I was 57 years

00:20:59.120 old. I didn't like, I'm, I'm starting a brand new show. I'm 68 years old. Age is not the

00:21:04.120 determining factor of who you're going to be. And you certainly, and I still don't have all

00:21:08.740 the answers. In fact, the older I get, the more I understand, the less I know. So I think, um,

00:21:14.200 I don't know if I'm answering your question, but I, I think it's, uh,

00:21:17.020 I think we have got to ease up on these young these kids are under a lot of pressure right now

00:21:23.000 they they've come out of COVID a lot of them never socialized through their late teens

00:21:27.940 most important time for socialization a lot of them are unclear of who they what they all think

00:21:35.900 the world is a disaster and they don't have any hope because how are they going to afford a home

00:21:40.520 how are they going to afford a car how they can't their jobs they can't keep up with all this stuff

00:21:45.200 And this is global. This isn't just here. And so what I think we have to give kids isn't pressure.

00:21:50.840 What I think we have to give them is hope for the future and having them find their way in the world and how they can contribute to that.

00:21:58.220 Because they're going to be the solution, not us at 50 and 68 years old. 49 and 68.

00:22:04.200 Thank you. Thank you. I got a few months, hun. I got a few months.

00:22:06.980 um i think yeah i i 100 agree with you um and again being around them all day it's also incredible

00:22:16.040 what's interesting is this idea of socialization because then i want to talk about what it's like

00:22:20.440 to be a woman in the world that you live in um obviously we see you on tv so we see i can see

00:22:26.400 you in that world on a microcosmic kind of level um but this idea about socialization is very much

00:22:33.540 a double-edged sword, right? Because you have this healthy part of socialization teaching you

00:22:38.560 how to be and where to be and how to fit in. But then there's a very fine line between socializing

00:22:45.620 and indoctrinating, between socializing and manipulating, between socializing and telling

00:22:51.800 these young people who they need to be when in actuality, if you step back and get the hell out

00:22:57.700 of their way, they're pretty incredible, thoughtful, creative, intelligent individuals.

00:23:05.860 And I mean, even at grade eight, not just my grade twelves, you know?

00:23:11.040 Yeah.

00:23:17.000 It's interesting, Joanne.

00:23:18.480 And I think that I don't – that age group, I mean, you're blessed to teach them

00:23:28.480 because I think what they need most is they need to see what they can become

00:23:33.120 more than they need to be told what they can become.

00:23:35.220 Yes, I agree.

00:23:36.340 I think – and that happens through mentorship, that happens through friendship,

00:23:41.540 that happens through demonstrating the bravery and the things that you represent and do.

00:23:46.840 I mean, you know, you're standing up in a world where, you know, your community is getting, you know, it's under so much pressure.

00:23:54.540 I just have so much respect for how hard it is anyhow.

00:24:00.180 You know, if you layer into that, you know, the LGBTQ component of it, the challenges that that is, kids need to see that it's okay to identify as you want to identify.

00:24:10.080 It's okay to be who you are.

00:24:12.260 And they don't need to be told that.

00:24:14.580 they need to see it and they can see you and they can go, I can be who I am. And it's things like

00:24:19.280 that. I use that as an example. I don't know if it's the right example, but. No, I'm uncomfortable

00:24:24.420 again. No, no, am I blushing? No, no, that didn't make me uncomfortable. What the funny part is,

00:24:30.580 is sometimes a lot of people would think because I present the way I do and, and, you know, how I

00:24:36.320 speak and how I hold myself, that a lot of kids who are questioning stuff, I'd be their go-to.

00:24:41.300 I'm never their go-to. So it's, you're, you're right. It needs to be something that they can

00:24:46.140 see, but if a kid is questioning or if kid needs to talk about, they can't come to me.

00:24:51.240 Not always, not often because I'm too close to the thing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Way,

00:24:59.060 way, way too close to the thing. When, when you talk about being brave though, how have you found

00:25:04.780 it? I mean, we can talk about being in the LGBTQ community, but also talking about being a woman

00:25:10.220 in this world. Yeah, I mean, I'd say that the biases I felt, you know, growing up in business

00:25:18.280 have been predominantly the only female in the room. Like, honestly, when people used to say to

00:25:25.360 me on Dragon's Den, as an example, like 20 years ago, you know, you're the only woman on the show,

00:25:30.980 what does that feel like? I generally would say that I don't wear, I don't think about being the

00:25:36.540 only woman in the show I just want to show up as a good business person on the show and so to me I

00:25:40.720 wasn't representing women I was just representing myself and then it wasn't until later that I

00:25:44.880 started to understand how important it was to see women in that role on that show and so I grew up 0.98

00:25:51.920 with a bias of women were you know a good example if I would go to a dinner party like say let's say 1.00

00:25:58.420 a business associate would have a dinner party at their home and I get invited inevitably and I mean 0.92

00:26:04.000 inevitably it would be the men would go in one room and the women would go in another room

00:26:07.860 now i'm more comfortable being in the room with the men because they're the ones talking business

00:26:11.640 they're the ones that i have i do work with right but i would be directed to the room with the women

00:26:16.360 and so you you you get labeled and you get assigned and you get um dismissed and you get

00:26:24.220 and these are all subtle things that happen without and nobody i think is doing it intentionally they

00:26:28.480 just think that's going to be where i'm more comfortable and so you grow up with these biases

00:26:32.880 and you learn to overcome them by just pushing yourself back into the room that you, you know,

00:26:39.420 that you want to be in and not letting somebody assign a room for you. Like, you know, I want to

00:26:44.940 be in this room and that's where I'm going to go. Now, what happens in that room, whether you're

00:26:49.160 accepted or not, is a whole other circumstance and a whole other condition that women in business

00:26:53.540 have to go through. But for me, it's being just having a voice at the table. I know Sheryl Sandberg

00:26:59.300 wrote the book about leaning out I'm much more about leaning in I think you you know like I think

00:27:04.760 you you have to lean into the conversation you have you know leaning out means sure you're

00:27:09.700 telling you're showing everybody kind of you're standing up for something and you have to do that

00:27:13.120 too but leaning in stands up for yourself and and you know kind of showing up at the table so I've

00:27:18.920 learned that that if you want to have a voice at a boardroom table if you want to have a voice in a

00:27:23.420 room. You have to be unafraid to say your opinion, which can be incredibly intimidating when you're

00:27:29.700 surrounded by people who are more educated, more accomplished, more experienced, and men.

00:27:38.580 So you're against that power play immediately. It's unbalanced.

00:27:44.200 Absolutely.

00:27:45.000 You have to lean in.

00:27:47.480 I've been told that sometimes when I go into rooms, I don't like this, obviously,

00:27:50.900 because it's very interesting. It's all subconscious. But I've been told that if I'm

00:27:55.580 in a room filled with not just men, but maybe a certain kind of guy, regardless of the conditions

00:28:04.520 under which I go into the room, I tend to puff up a little bit, meaning I put forward, I know that

00:28:13.620 I cut my hair like this, but I'm not the most masculine person in the world. You know what I

00:28:17.020 mean? Like, I'll cry like that at a commercial. I like to talk out my emotions. Are you able to

00:28:22.240 pause? What's that? Can you pause your podcast? Are you able to? No, I've never tried to pause.

00:28:28.520 Write it down. Wait, write it down. And so we can talk about it off camera.

00:28:33.140 My phone just rang, so I was going to turn it off, but hold everything, Joanna.

00:28:38.860 Okay. Hold everything. I'll just keep talking. I'll tell people my story.

00:28:42.500 I like it I can't hear it just so you know okay well good I think I've solved the problem now I

00:28:53.260 have the phone all right I can answer it if it needs to just write on the delivery do you imagine

00:28:59.360 I've been waiting for I thought all the UPS stuff got banned my date

00:29:07.020 none of those things forget everything else we're talking about that was a bizarre sorry sorry that

00:29:14.640 was in the world of early tonight huh are you going on a date tonight no oh I was gonna say

00:29:22.540 forget everything else let's talk about that um I don't want to go on a date tonight I puff up a

00:29:28.000 little bit and and I've been told it's not the most attractive thing that I do in my day you

00:29:32.280 know what i mean like it's like it's like i i imbue myself with a little bit more masculine

00:29:36.800 energy and what i find interesting about that is i i don't do that consciously at all um and

00:29:44.240 and i'm not i'm not too sure about why if i sort of step into a sort of a different character or

00:29:53.260 a different because we all have images ourselves um or if i joke differently or even if it's just

00:29:59.220 something in the quality of my voice. Um, I, so have you ever felt that at all? Cause I didn't

00:30:04.840 know I did it. I might do the opposite. I might shrink into myself. Um, because I'm, I'm very

00:30:11.620 much an introvert. And so I, I, I'm, I'm not really comfortable in, um, I'm short and I don't

00:30:22.060 really, I don't really, I'm like you. I don't like a lot of attention on myself. Like if somebody

00:30:26.680 compliments me I find it uncomfortable um so I think when I go into a room I'm a little bit

00:30:33.500 I'm a little bit I might shrink down and and and it I have to force myself especially if I'm doing

00:30:39.400 public speaking or if I'm kind of the you know um the headliner on an event or something yeah I have

00:30:46.080 to walk in you know like strong and tall and I still but inside I'm like shrinking and so I think

00:30:52.400 we, it's interesting that I can see, I can see what they're saying about why that could happen.

00:30:58.160 I could see both sides of that. I think it's all just indicative of how we feel about ourselves

00:31:02.620 and what we think we have and how we think we have to show up. My entire audience right now,

00:31:06.740 when you said that, that you understand that I don't, I don't like when people say nice things

00:31:10.460 about me, they're going to be like, oh, that's not true. Here's the qualifier. I don't respond

00:31:15.780 well to physical compliments yes not not mental or or if somebody says i'm smart if somebody says

00:31:23.880 i'm funny i love it you know i like i like being center stage i like proving myself in that

00:31:28.880 capacity i think that's how i've seen myself as soon as somebody says something about my aesthetic

00:31:34.440 i'm like and i don't know why i don't know where that comes from um but it's a very it's a very

00:31:40.240 different kind of um yeah i get that i i tell people all the time i've got like incredible

00:31:44.900 self-confidence when it comes to business like i i i think i i can i would have a discussion

00:31:50.280 with anybody uh presidents prime minister i wouldn't care i i can have a conversation with

00:31:55.940 anybody um but my i am very um i have very little self-confidence personally and so those two things

00:32:03.220 are not diametrically opposed they're they both things can be true you know we can have our own

00:32:09.640 personal concerns about who we are and how we look, but we can also show up very strong in

00:32:15.700 terms of what we do and our skills and things just happen. This is what we live with.

00:32:20.680 Do you think that's an aspect of growing up as a woman in this country in the similar ages where

00:32:27.960 we grew up? Do you think it's a reflection of that? Because I mean, your dad sounded like he

00:32:33.520 imbued you with all sorts of confidence and empowerment and told you what you needed to do.

00:32:38.720 And I know my mom did the same thing. Where do you think that hesitation comes from?

00:32:48.340 If we can answer this question, by the way, Arlene, we're changing the world.

00:32:51.980 There will be no more male, because I think men have this, it's like, where do you get the audacity of that confidence?

00:33:00.740 It doesn't come from anywhere. 0.57

00:33:02.700 And if women did the same thing, they would be, they would be, so they were being bitchy or, you know, aggressive and intimidating as opposed to, you know, and smart. 0.80

00:33:16.180 I think for me, and I love, I will say this with, I love my mother dearly. 0.98

00:33:21.920 She passed away two years ago, a couple of days ago.

00:33:24.500 And I loved her a lot.

00:33:26.620 We didn't have a really good relationship until I was older.

00:33:28.800 and I would say that my insecurity without because I'm not a big person about assigning blame I'm

00:33:35.440 not trying to blame her I think I think back of where my lack of confidence came from my mom

00:33:39.820 wasn't really like one to give a lot of it was more criticism than it was compliments and I think

00:33:46.300 she felt through criticism I would you know kind of step up a little bit and and so without again

00:33:52.300 I don't want to assign blame to her because I I always think we've done the best job we can and

00:33:57.100 she did the best job she could. But I do think a lot of it is just because I, that critique of

00:34:03.340 myself and that criticism of myself was something that I got used to as a child. And so I think I

00:34:09.420 learned to overanalyze myself and overthink kind of how I show up personally and aesthetically.

00:34:17.940 Interesting. Professionally, my dad would be, that would be the influence of my father,

00:34:21.720 I would say more than my mom. So, but I always stand on stage, Joanne, and say like, you know,

00:34:28.120 we can blame our past, but our past, our past shapes us, but it doesn't define us. And so again,

00:34:35.020 we can wallow in that. I can say, oh, poor me, you know, I didn't get any compliments when I was a

00:34:39.600 kid and that's why I'm messed up. Or I can say, ah, maybe that's what happened, understand it and,

00:34:45.240 and, and accept it and try and do the best with it that I can. You know, like I, I just think it's,

00:34:51.080 And again, maybe we're born that way. I don't know. Maybe that's optimism.

00:34:56.440 I also think, too, I think it would have been, it probably would have been exacerbated. It would

00:35:01.560 have been exacerbated by a culture that tells women they're supposed to be cooperative. They're 1.00

00:35:06.600 not supposed to be leaders. It tells women they're supposed to be in this position of inferiority. 1.00

00:35:12.560 They're supposed to be quiet and demure. And you know what I mean? They're not supposed to be 1.00

00:35:18.320 all these other things. And then you get all of these other subtle, and let's be honest,

00:35:23.620 not so subtle direction about where women need to go. And then you just couple it on all of the

00:35:30.320 things that, you know, people have had to go through. When I tell people to get therapy,

00:35:35.120 and when I tell people to be that introspective, it is never, it's sure, fix the things you need

00:35:40.220 to fix, right? If you're an ass, don't be an ass. I hate when people are like, well, that's just who 1.00

00:35:44.840 I am. Well, if you're a jerk, it's not just who you are. But I think introspection, you need to 1.00

00:35:53.560 understand who you are, why you are, not necessarily, well, never be ashamed of it.

00:36:00.800 And don't feel guilt about it. Just understand this is my starting point. These are the things

00:36:06.900 I'm going to back away from. These are the things that I'm going to recoil from, probably not for

00:36:11.440 the right reasons. So I'm going to recognize myself recoiling. I'm going to recognize myself

00:36:16.840 backing up. And then I'm going to choose to not go with my instinct because my instinct doesn't

00:36:22.320 serve me. That's when I talk about it. I think that's why we should really be introspective,

00:36:28.040 not to placate to it, not to blame it, but to actually have a good starting point.

00:36:34.300 That makes sense. I think context in everything is important. And people

00:36:40.600 often forget context so understanding kind of why you are where you are when you are

00:36:45.960 is really important and again people don't want to think about that right you want to lay blame

00:36:51.760 it's somebody else's fault it's you know it's it's something happened to me it's i've i've just

00:36:56.460 had bad luck my whole life you know i mean there's an interview question they say what's the best

00:37:00.460 interview question you can ask it's basically do you consider yourself a lucky or an unlucky person

00:37:05.280 And if somebody says, I'm an unlucky person, it's indicative of their propensity to blame circumstances for where they are.

00:37:15.580 Luck does play a role in our lives, but you can't just say, it's always been bad luck that has driven me to where I am.

00:37:23.160 There's always decisions you've made along the way, consequences to your actions and things that have actually led you to have the circumstance you are.

00:37:31.880 So context is very important.

00:37:33.880 By the way, I was getting to the best interview question.

00:37:36.640 Oh, I'm sorry.

00:37:37.940 I took that away too.

00:37:39.420 I'm just joking.

00:37:40.660 Never going to ask it.

00:37:42.180 All right.

00:37:42.540 So let's shift gears.

00:37:43.820 Can I ask you a question?

00:37:44.780 Yeah.

00:37:45.480 Okay.

00:37:45.840 Sorry.

00:37:46.080 You were about to ask me, but.

00:37:47.100 No, go ahead.

00:37:47.680 I'm going to shift gears to your dating life in a second.

00:37:51.580 Well, I'm going to make this question drag out.

00:37:53.680 How much time we got left?

00:37:55.320 You're not on your show.

00:37:56.700 I want to focus on your show and be.

00:37:58.600 Okay.

00:37:58.880 okay um i i'm a little bit i have a i i use humor a lot in my life um i i thought because i think

00:38:06.900 when you i think a sense of humor is so important um you you and and i and i think about the people

00:38:14.980 that i have really who have really influenced me with true humor like um robert williams is a good

00:38:21.100 example where you know and and you see a lot of um um maybe he's an extreme case because he committed

00:38:28.280 suicide, which is a horrible expression of depression. And it's so devastating that his

00:38:34.440 life was there and he needed to do that to ease his pain. But I think that, and this is a very

00:38:44.140 personal question, and I hope you don't remember that. I love it already. I'm excited. Just so you

00:38:48.180 know, there's no personal questions for me. Okay. So you're so smart and you use humor to

00:38:57.640 educate which i i i love like i resonate with humor i resonate with learning um but i i think

00:39:05.820 about how many great people i know who are comedians they're they're not educators or

00:39:11.320 comedians um but they use their comedy to talk about the world situation to talk they do educate

00:39:18.080 in that they're talking and using humor to get people to wake up to social conditions and when

00:39:24.020 what's happening. And they use extremes to do that. They'll, you know, they, they, they use

00:39:28.600 extremes to get there. Long winded way to say a lot of people who are very funny also suffer from

00:39:38.240 a lot of depression. And I'm curious about what that is. What drives the, what drives the humor?

00:39:45.460 Does it come from a place like, and what, what marries it to the depression? Because it seems to

00:39:50.360 be, it seems to, it seems to be evident a lot comedians are to suffer from depression. Many of

00:39:59.240 them talk about it, talk about being on some, you know, therapy or treatments or whatever. And I,

00:40:03.260 and I'm wondering what the connection is. I think there's two different lanes here. I think my

00:40:10.140 humor, I think my humor has always been driven by two things. Number one, insecurity. So from being

00:40:16.920 a very little kid, if I feel I will be the loudest, the funniest, the biggest, if I feel

00:40:23.540 insecure. So if I'm a new kid in class, I'm, I got it. I got, and I, so I was always that way.

00:40:29.560 So I don't know where that comes from. And then now it's, I honestly believe it's performative

00:40:37.040 because of what I do. You have two choices as a teacher, become a great performer or find another

00:40:44.100 job. That's true. And I guess I've always been driven to that. Now I'm going to, since we're

00:40:50.240 being personal, I've always been afraid. I have never felt a level of depression. I have never

00:40:57.720 felt that post-divorce, there was a little bit of time in there where I'm like, oh God, this is

00:41:03.920 what it feels like. I can't breathe. I can't. And there was a minute there. But I've always been a

00:41:13.200 little afraid of that being in me somewhere that I'm just not aware of because my dad,

00:41:20.760 when I was 25, actually took his own life. Oh, I didn't know that. I'm sorry. Then I'm sorry that

00:41:28.680 I... No, I've done a whole pod. I talk about it very openly because I think it's super important

00:41:33.480 And it's been a long time since that happened. But I often think about how he was. And he was

00:41:43.720 very, I never heard him laugh. I heard my dad laugh like twice. And one time he had a drink

00:41:50.140 in his hand, one drink. And I called my mom. My parents got divorced when I was very young. I

00:41:54.640 called my mom. I said, dad's drunk. You're going to have to come get me. And my dad got on the

00:41:58.440 phone. He's like, Ange, I've had half a drink. I don't know what she, but he was with his friends

00:42:04.520 and he was laughing, but him gutturally laughing was so foreign to me that I thought that was

00:42:12.000 indicative. He was always this, he never yelled either. There was no big emotion. And when I was

00:42:18.160 young, my mom got worried because, and this is also kind of interesting, I didn't express a lot

00:42:25.280 of up and down i wasn't this kid right you know teenagers and teenage girls particularly it's all

00:42:31.360 sorts of drama i never have any drama now we all understand now why that was because i didn't care

00:42:36.680 about boys i dated them they didn't impact me you know what i mean on a on a real level so i got to

00:42:42.820 avoid all the high school drama i waited for women to crush me later in my life um i went through it

00:42:49.920 eventually. Uh, so I wonder if there's pieces of me like that. Um, and if I spend too much time by

00:42:58.400 myself and my mom will talk about this and it's not good for me. No, it's not good. So, so alone,

00:43:05.560 you feel depressed when you're by yourself in your, in your mind too much. I get a couple days.

00:43:11.200 I get a couple days where I'm like, okay, I can, I can rewatch Buffy the Vampire Slayer or whatever.

00:43:15.820 and I need, I do need some time. I like a little bit of quiet time because I'm a teacher,

00:43:20.760 but not too much. And then I wonder sometimes, is that because I want to keep occupied all the

00:43:26.600 time? Maybe, maybe. I mean, and maybe, I mean, there's probably lots of things to unpack there

00:43:32.720 that only your therapist could help you with. I can't, but I find that pretty fascinating that,

00:43:39.500 um, yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting to me. I, I, because I often use humor as a,

00:43:47.980 as a deflection, you know, as, as, as trying to cut through the tension and trying to get people

00:43:56.860 to, you know, bring the pressure down or temperature down or a way to break a silence or

00:44:01.960 I use, I use it as a tool without meaning to, I think not intentionally, but then afterwards I

00:44:07.580 realized that I, you know, was that an appropriate thing to say something funny at that moment? But

00:44:11.780 then I realized why I did it. But in your case, your humor is actually, it's so powerful, because

00:44:18.680 it's such a, as I said, you marry it with education. And so I find it so powerful. Like Robin

00:44:26.580 Williams, humor was powerful. And, and, and so I just was wondering if there's any connection with

00:44:34.640 how you kind of cope in the real world or I think it's very similar I think who you see here

00:44:41.520 is very you know who who I am when I do podcasts who what how I do TikToks all of those things

00:44:48.920 I think it's very uh reflective of just who I am and because I I think if it wasn't I I don't think

00:44:56.500 I could have done it for so long could have been too much work yeah but the reason why I do it

00:45:00.700 when it comes to educating was for two reasons.

00:45:03.540 Number one, I keep students' attention.

00:45:05.500 But number two, and probably way more importantly,

00:45:07.820 especially on social media,

00:45:09.280 is that I am constantly trying to figure out ways

00:45:13.140 to get to the people who look at me and have decided.

00:45:17.960 I'm constantly trying to figure out

00:45:20.140 how do I say something a little bit softer

00:45:24.180 so that the person that's in my comments

00:45:26.760 or on my lives who wants to make a horrific comment

00:45:30.040 and a lot of people are like, kick him out. I'm like, no, no, give me a second.

00:45:35.520 I think I can get at them. I think if I can get at one of 10 people who have decided who I am by

00:45:41.680 my haircut or whatever prejudicial or stereotypical stuff they have going on. And even if it's not

00:45:46.940 about my aesthetic, even if it's about my political stances, that they'll give me a minute and they'll

00:45:52.240 just listen right after the joke, but they'll listen to the argument I make or the information

00:45:57.640 that I give because I've disarmed them. So it's very similar to what you do because you're trying

00:46:02.940 to bring down the pressure in the room. I'm just trying to bring down the pressure, you know,

00:46:07.540 with X amount of people that are actually watching me because I think we're inundated with it.

00:46:14.100 I think I so much respect for what you just said, like so much respect for you that you strive for

00:46:20.140 discourse that is respectful and who, that you are prepared to take a minute with the haters.

00:46:27.100 because most people will not they and and the hate builds on the hate it it's it's too hard

00:46:33.300 to confront somebody who has a completely opposite opinion from you or who chooses to go at you

00:46:38.840 personally but i i have learned over the years that on you know in social when i if some i i i

00:46:46.680 i can't you probably are getting there too but you know if i have 1200 replies i can't reply to all

00:46:52.080 So I'm very, I'll pick a few and try to reply to a couple here or there.

00:46:56.820 And I almost always inevitably try to pick somebody to reply to that's being very negative

00:47:01.080 because I want to have a respectful conversation with them, but I also want them to hear my

00:47:06.600 view.

00:47:07.360 And I think if there's more of that in the world, we will be a better world because we're

00:47:12.400 not, it's not right or wrong.

00:47:14.280 The truth is always somewhere in the middle.

00:47:16.300 And I love that that's why you do it, Joanna.

00:47:19.460 I think that makes so much sense to me that that's what you do. And it's, yeah. Yeah. Again,

00:47:26.000 very impressive. Well, I need to mention on one thing. I am usually right. And so.

00:47:32.060 Well, me too. So then I guess, why are we doing this then?

00:47:35.940 Well, I really think, look, I'm very, I, the social media, the podcast, all this stuff that

00:47:42.660 we're doing is amazing. I really want to be out more in real life. You know, I watched what,

00:47:48.200 For example, what a guy like Jordan Peterson has done and outside of taking on his particular viewpoints, being in public space, in big groups of people, inviting a debate, which he doesn't, by the way.

00:48:01.320 So inviting that debate in real time, filming that, putting that up, watching that.

00:48:07.600 To me, to me, that's the only way we should be doing politics.

00:48:12.360 It's the only way we should be doing education.

00:48:14.480 It's the only way we should be doing social media.

00:48:16.320 inclusive, powerful. Now there are limits about how you get to come at me. I always say, you know,

00:48:22.680 as soon as you're verbally violent or, you know, threatening all those kinds of things, fine,

00:48:28.620 there's a heavy line there. But outside of that, I think opening that up and being able to have

00:48:34.540 that conversation is the only way we move from this period of time with such dichotomies of

00:48:43.120 I'm over here and like what's going on in the United States and what we're pushing to happen

00:48:47.340 right here is so horrifically destructive and useless, um, that the only way we're going to

00:48:56.840 combat that isn't by elevating hate on this side. It's by opening discussion in the middle.

00:49:02.600 Yeah. That's it. Yeah. No, I, I, I think, um, bravo to that and to, um, the notion of inviting

00:49:10.440 that conversation. And as you said that, because I'm an entrepreneur, I had an idea. So I'm going

00:49:15.180 to talk to you about my idea because I think you are onto something. And we'll talk, we'll talk

00:49:19.860 offline about it. Because I've always, one of the things, for whatever reason, I always see

00:49:25.020 opportunity. Problem is I can't chase out all of it, but I think in this case. That's magic in your

00:49:29.780 head. Yes, exactly. Can I ask about your show? Do you have a hard out at 11? Because I know it's

00:49:34.560 Yeah, no, no, I know.

00:49:35.740 Oh, okay, let's do a quick, yeah, let's do a quick show.

00:49:38.840 Can you just talk about your show really quick before we have to? 0.99

00:49:42.180 Well, Darlene is alone.

00:49:43.720 It's a, it's so sad.

00:49:45.680 I know, but it's not, it's not, it's not sad at all.

00:49:48.880 The whole point is that you can be alone.

00:49:51.040 Alone is not lonely.

00:49:52.740 Sometimes, sure, you can be lonely in a relationship.

00:49:55.320 You can be lonely as married, a single, you can always be lonely.

00:49:59.540 But being alone does not mean you are lonely.

00:50:01.900 And so it's about talking to people about, you know, how they navigate being alone or being married or being in their lives.

00:50:09.420 And I'm having so much fun.

00:50:11.440 I just decided to do this.

00:50:12.680 It's a YouTube show.

00:50:14.400 Who knows if it's going to go anywhere.

00:50:16.760 I'm sure hopefully it'll get better with time.

00:50:19.140 I hope people will subscribe to it.

00:50:20.720 It's free.

00:50:21.460 I'm just doing it because I think there's a conversation to be had and about there's a lot of single people out there, a lot of people that are alone.

00:50:29.300 and it's okay to, to live your life fully alone. So that's what it's about. Arlene is alone. It's

00:50:34.200 on YouTube. Subscribe. I love, but you haven't dropped an episode yet. You've just dropped a

00:50:38.140 trailer. 14th of February, because what better? Well, Arlene, I want to thank you. And by the

00:50:47.980 way, for those who are listening to this, um, I'm, I'm trying my best to get on Arlene's show.

00:50:52.840 so so i'm looking forward to that so go look for that hopefully that episode we do some crazy stuff

00:51:00.020 because she initially said that you know we get to do things while we're having these discussions

00:51:04.920 so if everybody knows me i like to do some pretty crazy things um thank you i would love to schedule

00:51:11.260 you for a part two right now i would love when you're in toronto maybe meet up in person and be

00:51:17.000 able to have, you know, a longer conversation because I think we, we got on the tip of some

00:51:22.340 incredible, incredible points that I think people want to hear more about and hear your perspective

00:51:28.120 because it really is incredible. And, um, I thank you for coming on the show. Um, wait,

00:51:34.000 so you're going to commit to it at part two. Yeah. I'm not going to not now because it's still

00:51:38.940 live. I'm sorry. You got in it. You guys heard it. So she's already on the hook. All right,

00:51:44.980 guys. Thank you so much for coming on. And for everybody who's listening, I'll see you

00:51:50.480 next week. Same bat time, same bat channel. Dismissed.

Unlearn16: Class is in Session - February 11, 2025

The One Where I Enter The Dragon's Den With Arlene Dickinson

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