Unlearn16: Class is in Session - The One Where I Let It Rain with Amanda Marshall

00:00:00.000 class is in session deep breath guys welcome to unlearned 16 classes in session look at what

00:00:09.360 i have with me uh i don't even know if i have a good introduction i'm sweating and my neck hurts

00:00:16.160 a little bit it's a it's a lot is your hair okay my hair is good are you sure here's good i washed

00:00:20.880 it for you got listen you do what you have to do that is epic the fact that you're you live in

00:00:27.760 toronto you're from toronto and i've never seen you i said this to my friends and they're like

00:00:32.240 you think we would have said you think you would have passed me on the street somewhere

00:00:36.720 um thank you so much for sitting down with me to be honest i don't even know i don't know where to

00:00:41.600 start i'm going to start with a little bit of a story because everybody's got to start yeah

00:00:47.120 uh sorry i'm a teacher i have a lot of puns um my very first class that i ever taught was i was

00:00:55.520 doing my practice teaching with the kids and it was an english class and not an english teacher

00:00:59.840 and i walked in there and i was supposed to be doing a poetry unit and so the teacher said here

00:01:04.400 poetry oh my god oh my god you're gonna give me what grade 10 poetry it's gonna go badly and i

00:01:10.320 used everybody's got a story no way so i i printed off the lyrics i made them listen to the song

00:01:16.480 we we listened to it we did the metaphor simile all of that kind of stuff and then we really got

00:01:21.360 to the aspect of everybody's got a story and i had these kids telling like you know nice personal

00:01:28.400 stories about important things that made them who they are that's my very first i love that

00:01:33.600 my very first teaching moments look at me look at you look at me contributing to the edification

00:01:40.480 come on so you've been in the business since when i have been in the music business formally since i

00:01:49.520 was 15 16 wow yeah like 10 years ago like a scant five six years ago short of a time um and and for

00:02:01.840 that business like i mean i want to talk about you being an artist i want to talk about you being in

00:02:05.760 the business because those are two very different things can i ask a question yeah why did she have

00:02:09.680 to sit here i don't know i thought she was with you all right um let's talk about the the the

00:02:15.760 artistry side of it first did you know at 15 years old were you like this is who i am yes

00:02:23.840 i knew at i knew at maybe i mean i knew when i was little little um when you're doing things

00:02:30.400 for validation from adults i knew that i was like good enough at it that adults were interested let's

00:02:36.240 go in a deep dive about the validation from adults i think we're gonna shift this entire thing this

00:02:41.680 which became a completely different interview um so you would you would stand up you would sing

00:02:47.200 people would clap and you yeah yeah and i was like people like this i enjoy doing it um and then and

00:02:52.880 i knew it was what i wanted to do professionally easily by the time i was god like nine ten and

00:02:59.600 and when you say professionally how did you even conceptualize that at nine or ten

00:03:04.720 just that you see people on tv yeah i'd be like i want to do that i didn't know what the i didn't

00:03:09.280 know what path i was going to take i didn't know how i was going to um because i didn't i you know

00:03:12.960 i was an only child i grew up a very middle class you know but really yeah so you know i you know i

00:03:20.240 had both my parents were working parents uh i had no connections in the business i didn't know

00:03:24.480 anybody um until you know much later and i but i you know i just did what what i what was available

00:03:31.200 to me at the time and my parents were great they were really supportive they were very very um

00:03:36.800 um, attuned to my abilities and they really made sure to go out of their way. They used what money

00:03:41.680 they had to get me lessons and whatever it was that I needed at the time. So they were, they

00:03:45.700 were great. They weren't pushy, but they were really, really supportive. And I was great. I

00:03:49.280 was lucky. I had a lot of great teachers. I had great teachers. Well, and I think, well,

00:03:54.660 music teachers or teachers in general, music teachers, especially, but teachers in general

00:04:00.660 who guided me even the teachers who guided me in areas that weren't musical or that weren't

00:04:07.440 arts related were so important my english teacher was a huge part of my development my history

00:04:12.040 teacher was a huge part of my as we are i understand i'm not just sucking up well i

00:04:17.100 i i asked that question because it's like the you possess and i'm i'm gonna it's gonna seem

00:04:24.880 there is something truly authentic about your music and i think that kind of authenticity

00:04:34.760 and and throughout you know the years that i've been listening to you but that kind of authenticity

00:04:39.620 either has to be really hard fought for meaning you have to go through hell and back or you have

00:04:46.620 and what sounds like that lovely foundation of people who supported you who bigged you up who

00:04:52.480 helped you who you know nobody ever looked at you and goes you want to be a singer don't be

00:04:56.960 ridiculous maybe say that yeah no nobody said that but the the the sort of trials and tribulations

00:05:03.420 of being in the music business for me came later ironically they came after after i had already had

00:05:09.240 a significant and substantial amount of success we're gonna talk about that yeah i'm really

00:05:13.700 excited about that but initially i have to call it's all right it's okay now but it's all over

00:05:21.180 it's not okay for everybody just so you know but initially i was um yeah i mean initially i was

00:05:27.180 just like you know why wouldn't i do this this is great you know you know what and there's something

00:05:32.780 like i said there's something incredibly powerful and authentic about that did you feel like

00:05:37.580 like i've i've been around the i'm not musical in any way i've been around the music business

00:05:41.500 in different ways in different i don't love it there's aspects of it i'm like

00:05:45.740 and plus i'm a teacher so i like structure and timing and nobody's on time in this business

00:05:53.980 where's the sound guy listen i was here when you got here you were this is a you were actually

00:05:59.580 early i'm just you know exactly what i'm talking about i know exactly what you're saying i'm a

00:06:02.980 vergo motor's not there the sound guy now where's the lighting guy there's no like anyways that's

00:06:08.560 beside the point but the idea that you did you feel like you could hold on to when you stepped

00:06:13.720 into this business could you hold on to authentically who you were or were you just sort

00:06:19.240 of coming into it or did you feel pressured oh no no no i listen my um my mother in particular

00:06:27.480 my mom is like i don't know about you but my mom is like the voice in my head all the time

00:06:31.880 and i could call her any time any hour of any day and so there was no she was like you know who you

00:06:37.960 are i always knew who i was and i was and i think that was you know it's funny when the whole me too

00:06:44.600 thing happened a few years ago my mother this was like five six seven years ago my mom called me

00:06:49.080 even as an adult my mom called me and she was like is there anything i need to know you know

00:06:53.720 and she was like and don't is there anything and i was like no i was like like if there was anything

00:06:58.680 to know you'd know like how would you not know right right right that's the kind of foundation

00:07:03.960 that I had. So I, and I, and it saved me so many times because so many times, not just in the

00:07:10.060 entertainment business, but particularly in the entertainment business, particularly as a young

00:07:13.660 woman in the entertainment business, you find yourself alone a lot in rooms with people you

00:07:18.720 don't know, many of whom are men. And it was for me, I think that was what saved me was everybody

00:07:26.060 knew that I was, um, at least outwardly pretty self-confident, but I had this great foundation

00:07:32.360 behind me so they knew there were people like on the other side of the door right so they knew

00:07:37.380 somebody's gonna know so how old were you when you're starting to be in those rooms those like

00:07:42.340 in like i know that when you're young you'd go perform and stuff but when you're in those rooms

00:07:46.520 with people that kind of or you would feel like maybe that could make or break how old were you

00:07:51.600 at that point i mean i was really young i was um from the time i was say 15 until i was 18 19 my

00:07:58.860 parents were there with me because they sort of had to be but then from then on I was kind of on

00:08:03.040 my own but it's so funny I look at like pictures and things that I did when I was really young

00:08:06.340 and I and my mother went completely nuts from the time I was about like 19 till I was in my

00:08:10.340 mid-20s my mother was just like you know you know she was really beside herself and I see now why

00:08:16.480 because I was 19 but I looked like I was like 11 you know and you don't you don't feel that way

00:08:21.880 when you're 19 or 20 you think like I'm a woman I have everything I'm a woman of the world I know

00:08:27.180 everything there's nothing nobody can do right and but but i look back now and i'm like oh man

00:08:33.420 how like i got in a van with like a bunch of guys i was like 17. well you know kids she's not she

00:08:39.660 never did that i'm not advising this i'm just saying no i i talk about those stories a lot

00:08:45.180 actually just in in general but you were in such a powerful and vulnerable place that i just feel

00:08:51.980 like and obviously we see a lot of stuff in the music business coming to a sort of fruition now

00:08:57.180 And you just see all of that happening to be able to have the foundation to say, I'm out, or to say, my mom's out on the other side of the door.

00:09:07.120 That's incredible.

00:09:08.460 Yeah.

00:09:09.320 Do you think that's what led to, and we're going to get to, so you do one killer album, you do another killer album, and then you leave us.

00:09:18.120 Can we talk about that for a minute?

00:09:19.220 Yeah.

00:09:19.500 Is that okay?

00:09:20.100 Sure.

00:09:20.600 All right.

00:09:21.040 So what?

00:09:22.880 You walk me through it.

00:09:24.520 I've read stuff.

00:09:25.620 I've heard, you know what I mean?

00:09:26.740 you walk me through what happened. It's a lot less. I'm going to get some names and I'm going

00:09:30.660 to just go make some calls. I have a bit of a following now. She has brass knuckles in her

00:09:36.380 back. Listen. So we, I finished my third record. Everybody's got a story. We came off the road. 0.88

00:09:42.780 We came off the road in 2002. And I, you know, it was really the first time that I had taken any

00:09:52.040 times since I had, I had been working solid since literally since I was like 16, 17.

00:09:56.560 And I just reevaluated the entire relationship with my manager who I had had, um, up until that

00:10:02.940 point since I was 15. And there were a lot of things about the relationship that were not

00:10:07.980 working business-wise, you know, on a, on a, on a professional level. And it was the hardest thing

00:10:13.480 I've ever had to do to, to, to fire them. Um, but we, so I decided, you know, this is it. I'm

00:10:20.760 going to go in a new direction completely new direction so you're signed with the label they

00:10:24.660 signed with the label i was with sony at sony at the time and then that was your manager that was

00:10:28.520 my manager and just for myself and everybody listening those are separate entities they are

00:10:33.600 but in my case there was a lot of intertwining there was a lot of you know we had the same

00:10:38.320 same this same that same lawyer same this same everything right and which happens a lot yeah i

00:10:43.860 don't know if it happens as much anymore but it did um so it made extricating myself really really

00:10:48.880 hard and it was just it was just really a really bad breakup it was like when you have a really

00:10:52.680 bad divorce and it became very contentious listen and i had nobody there to sing fall from grace

00:11:01.460 for me we'll talk about that later so you had a bad breakup a bad breakup and then you have to

00:11:06.660 let go of it all well i kept trying um but it became this unrelenting just campaign of legal

00:11:17.960 harassment and it went on and on and on and it really went on for about 10 years yeah which

00:11:23.760 people find really hard to believe but i'm here to tell you it is possible and it's it's i'm not

00:11:28.760 the first person that it's happened to it happens i don't again i don't know if it happens as much

00:11:32.540 anymore but uh yeah and it just really took a long time to resolve itself and in that time you become

00:11:38.780 at least i did i became very conscious of not wanting to be like the girl from trouble like

00:11:43.980 everywhere i went i was kind of like well i can't really start anything new because i've got this

00:11:47.900 anvil that i'm carrying around with me um so it became sort of a chronic distraction to everything

00:11:54.580 i did i worked a little bit we did we did a few sort of live shows here and there but but starting

00:11:59.980 a record starting a new label relationship became really really hard so you couldn't stay with sony

00:12:05.480 under the this kind of interwoven yeah yeah so you would have had to be signed somewhere else

00:12:11.180 and then that was taking oh well and that makes a little bit more sense i guess i didn't understand

00:12:16.860 neat because i always knew it was a manager issue but i didn't understand how interwoven it was yeah

00:12:21.420 it was it was really really um just a lot of uh overlap there were a lot of overlapping

00:12:28.540 relationships between labels and and production companies and i think people the you know the

00:12:34.860 downside of it was that i really as i said it became a chronic distraction and i realized early

00:12:39.580 on as well-intentioned as my parents were and i'm you know and that is another um huge learning curve

00:12:45.740 that as well intentioned as my parents were, you don't know what you don't know. And as much as

00:12:49.700 you're trying to be helpful and provide guidance and get the best people, you know, to surround

00:12:54.080 your kid, it was really, they were, they really thought they were doing the best for me. I thought

00:12:59.300 I was doing the best for me. And for a long time, it worked out. And the truth is, I don't have any

00:13:03.680 real, I did for a while, have real kind of, not bitterness, but I was really upset about it. But

00:13:08.980 I'm not anymore, because I realized that about halfway through the whole ordeal, I realized it

00:13:15.360 was truly the best thing that ever happened to me. Okay, you're going to have to explain that.

00:13:19.960 It really was because it made me, it forced me to develop into the person I was always supposed

00:13:25.260 to be all along. When you have a lot of success very early, I think it kind of stunts you because

00:13:32.680 you are trapped in sort of, as all of your peers move forward and develop life skills and coping

00:13:37.500 skills and learn how to cope with, you know, the slings and arrows that life brings, you're not

00:13:42.840 dealing with any of that stuff. You're not paying your own bills. You're not, you know, you're not

00:13:46.000 dealing with the day to day kind of stuff. And once all of the infrastructure that springs up

00:13:51.480 around you fell away, I really stepped into myself and it became this sort of point of pride. I was

00:13:58.340 like, I can't believe I'm not like, I'm doing this on my own. Right. Right. And I, it made me

00:14:04.060 aware that I was a lot more capable than I had previously thought because it becomes this kind

00:14:08.600 of like oh you do it i can't do it i don't know i can't go out there right and and it it really

00:14:14.100 strips you of a lot of your um your confidence even though you are outwardly very confident

00:14:19.340 you're very successful it really inwardly strips you of a lot of that i feel like that's what a lot

00:14:24.140 of people talk about they talk about it more when it comes to actors i think because a lot of actors

00:14:27.700 hit younger but but young young singers as well where you're frozen i've heard where you get

00:14:33.360 frozen at that age. Right. I became famous at 19. I never got older than 19. I never had to.

00:14:39.660 Right. And that's insanely powerful. And I think that's true oddly for everybody,

00:14:45.460 because I know that we've joked and I think you do owe me an apology. I think fall from

00:14:49.740 grace really let me down in that first marriage. However, however, having something pulled out

00:15:01.400 from under you whatever that thing is because there's so many people that have gone through

00:15:05.660 huge job losses losing people like divorces all of those things but when the earth literally feels

00:15:12.280 like it's shook and you're like oh this is how i'm gonna die like i'm physically can't take

00:15:18.260 another step and when you finally figure out how to take that step you're like oh all of that

00:15:25.640 terrible stuff was supposed to happen yeah all of it you know all of it I at whenever whatever I was

00:15:32.680 44 and and now at 49 I'm like more who I am I'm I never could have done TikTok I never could have

00:15:42.180 done I never would have done any of it had that not been shook so you figure that out about five

00:15:49.720 years in and then you could kind of like were you were you I mean you're an artist so so being an

00:15:56.480 artist I don't think you stopped doing that or did that business kind of I don't want to say crush

00:16:02.460 but it must have been a wait during that that break of time it initially was but then I really

00:16:09.140 quickly realized because I I it's funny I I know like on my Instagram it says like artist under

00:16:15.240 your like bio thing i have a real thing about that word because i think like um artist really

00:16:21.160 picasso was an artist i make up songs in my pajamas like i'm like really yeah picasso was a

00:16:25.400 little crazy that's true we have that in common you make us you so wait a minute wait a minute

00:16:31.240 look we got to go back to the getting parents getting adults attention and now we're going to

00:16:35.720 talk about what you don't because because you like kind of minimize what you do well i guess

00:16:41.560 i know as yourself i guess i don't think of it as as high art you know i i sort of i realize

00:16:47.960 it has value i understand that it is you know that you have to be but i never really thought

00:16:51.940 of myself up until this point as uh as a as a creative person i think i always had a little

00:16:59.400 bit of imposter syndrome where i kind of thought of myself as a dilettante who sang and which

00:17:03.380 sounds weird because it's the only thing i ever wanted to do it's the only thing i was really

00:17:06.240 really good at um but i but i i think a lot of creative people have that and i think you're

00:17:11.180 always walking around like oh man any minute now yeah so on on your first three albums how much

00:17:17.100 writing were you doing probably about it was uh on the first record was about half and the second

00:17:22.240 record it was a little more than half the third record it was like all you know all the songs

00:17:25.740 were co-written um so and that was another point of creative part i was but i was but i was doing

00:17:31.560 it i was relying heavily on other people right um and i was doing it really to fulfill a quite a

00:17:39.320 publishing deal so i was doing it to like fulfill a quota it was something that was i never thought

00:17:43.960 of myself as someone who was driven in the morning to wake up and write songs and i knew people who

00:17:48.440 were like i knew people who were not doing the other side of it so i knew people who were not

00:17:51.960 performers who were great gifted songwriters and i thought i'm not really in their league

00:17:56.600 um and i'm still not but i read but well one of the things i realized was that my contribution

00:18:03.000 as a songwriter was had value because without it the records don't have it's just like you know

00:18:09.560 what you do has value because without it without your voice behind it it doesn't really have a

00:18:15.560 sense of identity right and that's what was giving the records their whole kind of bloom their whole

00:18:20.440 sense of identity so that was a big thing um but i was lucky i realized that very earlier in the

00:18:26.880 process then i realized that it was the best thing that had ever happened to me i was creative all

00:18:31.600 the way through the process it was just people weren't hearing it right i just wasn't i didn't

00:18:34.920 have any outlet for it right um i it's so incredible to understand how you view yourself

00:18:41.680 and then how that's transformed but this album the last album yeah right uh not a love song by

00:18:48.100 the way is my favorite um this last album it was all you this last album was all me and it it started

00:18:56.600 out it morphed i'll call you for the next one i'm just saying there could have been a small

00:19:01.560 rapping part like a triangle solo a triangle just one or two hits that's all i'm asking amanda

00:19:08.800 the bar is not hot oh yeah um so yeah so you wrote this whole thing yeah wrote the whole thing

00:19:14.960 and took a long time because we wrote it over a long I wrote it over a long period of time and

00:19:18.940 we made it over a long period of time because I didn't have anything else to do so I was sort of

00:19:22.060 like well we can take our time with this and eventually it got to a point where I was like

00:19:24.840 well I'm not making this for a label nobody's waiting for it my fans you know I have stopped

00:19:30.580 waiting for it nobody knows where I am I disagree I have to say we were all waiting that really did

00:19:38.540 shocked me when I came back how I really one of the things that really surprised me honestly

00:19:44.400 is how meaningful you know songs like Dark Horse and Fall From Great all those all those records

00:19:50.420 had been to people like they really were they had marked momentous occasions in their lives with

00:19:55.480 them they had passed the love of the songs onto their kids and were bringing their kids to the

00:20:00.540 shows now that to me was kind of because when you're in it you don't really I don't think you

00:20:05.160 realize it you just thought i'm famous for now yeah and it will go away and i didn't even think

00:20:09.620 about that i just sort of thought like oh the record is my thing was always like how is the

00:20:13.480 record doing is the record doing well is the record are we getting to travel to other places

00:20:18.320 are we getting to do shows in front of new audiences we were traveling a lot a lot um so

00:20:23.540 i didn't have really the time to absorb the kind of connection that the people really had with the

00:20:30.420 music it was always great you go to like a place like japan and people are singing the lyrics and

00:20:34.160 you're like oh my god i can't believe yeah but but it didn't really register with me as like a 22 or

00:20:39.280 23 year old that like they're doing that because it's meaningful to them yeah you know and so now

00:20:44.600 you have a greater appreciation of that you can see that yeah it's amazing what's your favorite

00:20:49.160 song of all time of mine oh anybody's anybody's anybody's i can't tell you because i'm about to

00:20:55.180 record it gosh we're about to record just whisper it i won't it's a great great song and it's

00:21:07.580 actually it's a song the story behind it is fantastic and i can't tell you yet but i promise

00:21:11.660 i'll come back and tell you i will okay well okay and it's it's uh it's a song that i always wanted

00:21:16.040 to record and it got let it actually got left off the first record we didn't i didn't demo it but

00:21:21.800 it was a song i fought to get on the first record and i lost the fight to get on the first record

00:21:25.880 and i'm going to get to record it now in a way that's so much better and i'm so excited about it

00:21:31.240 i didn't even know i'm on the worst on the worst okay favorite song you've written favorite song

00:21:37.600 i've written and i know as an as an artist as a what would you call yourself then if you never

00:21:41.860 called yourself and would you would it be performer performer yeah is that where you feel the most you

00:21:45.620 on yeah i think so yeah performer singer i don't know so you know musical act use ventriloquist

00:21:54.200 dummy somebody throw some balls to juggle exactly um favorite song um favorite song that i've

00:22:01.360 written um this is well my this is the stumper right here i really like but i love singing if

00:22:10.360 i didn't have you which is off the second record it's a ballad yep because that is a song that has

00:22:14.740 a lot of meaning for me um it's a song well it's a it's a it's a love song yeah uh it it grew out

00:22:22.260 of another song the guy i wrote it with eric bazillion he's the guy who wrote what if god

00:22:25.540 was one of us stranger on the bus there you go um and he had this hat song sort of half written

00:22:31.900 lying around and he brought it in and i loved it and i was like we have to do something with this

00:22:37.500 and it it it wound up being a song that um we wound up touring with and ironically today is

00:22:43.940 the day that she died we wound up touring with Whitney Houston and it's been 13 years yeah 13

00:22:50.320 years ago today and she was you know somebody I grew up I mean every singer you know sure I grew

00:22:57.580 up with her posters on my wall so to be on the tour was like unbelievable and I didn't care

00:23:02.500 you know all I wanted to do was watch her show every night sure so on the we were on the road

00:23:09.120 a few months with them and on the sort of second to last night of the tour we were in germany

00:23:14.640 and uh that song if i didn't have you it starts with a whistle it's very hard to replicate a

00:23:20.160 whistle live so the whistle's on tape so every night i would sort of turn around and some water

00:23:25.840 and on this particular night i turned her and i turned back and she was standing right right now

00:23:31.440 her and bobby brown and she came out and i pass out i almost did and i could feel like

00:23:38.800 the blood rushing from my head to my feet did all the water go from here yeah i was just like

00:23:43.280 and she took my mic and she introduced me and thanked me for she said you know man thank you

00:23:49.760 for being on the road and the audience applauded she put the mic on the stand and she turned to

00:23:54.240 hug me and as she leaned in to hug me she said god damn i love this song oh and it was a song

00:24:01.680 that i had written oh wow and it was to me i mean to hear her say that she loved the song 0.73

00:24:11.360 that that i knew that i had written um and not just it would have been meaningful enough if she

00:24:17.360 had said like oh i like the way you sing that song yeah yeah that's nice but it was like to hear her

00:24:22.160 say that she loved the song so that song to me every time i sing that song i think about that

00:24:26.400 And you didn't think in that moment you were an artist?

00:24:30.300 Picasso, Amanda Marshall, Whitney Houston just said it.

00:24:34.800 You should have had a light bulb moment at that moment.

00:24:37.820 What is the hardest part about being in the industry, being like whatever, being who you are?

00:24:45.160 Like in this, because I can tell you bad teacher stories.

00:24:47.920 Like, I mean, like, what's the heart?

00:24:49.160 What's the part where you're like, oh, that thing.

00:24:51.800 I think the, I think, and maybe I'm alone in this, but I think the greatest lesson that I have learned is that you really have to remember not to take yourself seriously, like relax, like we're not curing cancer. This is music.

00:25:07.100 sure it's a universal language that allows us to go out in front of a wide audience if you're lucky

00:25:12.960 and you get to travel and you get to meet people from all over the world who connect for whatever

00:25:19.000 reason and I and I think when you when I say you have to remember not to take it personally

00:25:24.020 you know I walk into meet and greets all the time yeah and people are overwhelmed and I know

00:25:28.840 that feeling I've met people you know I've been starstruck I've been overwhelmed you should have

00:25:32.680 seen it earlier. I've met people. It's embarrassing. Oh my God. But I've met people whose work is

00:25:38.220 meaningful to me. And, but I also know that it's the, it's the, it's about the work. It's not really,

00:25:44.720 it's not so much about me. And I think if you get in your head too much with it,

00:25:48.920 I think that really that messes you up. I think it is about, I get what you're saying because

00:25:55.940 you're, you're trying to say, listen, there's, there's no sort of hierarchical standing here,

00:26:00.940 but i think it is about you specifically i think there's a lot of artists out there

00:26:06.260 where that connection isn't as apparent but i think the way that you sing your music i would

00:26:13.980 argue that every single fan would disagree with what you said well i mean certainly it's i even

00:26:19.960 have kids students now yeah 16 years old like they knew that i was coming to do this and i play

00:26:24.980 a little bit of your music and I'd hear them humming it 16 years old humming it down you know

00:26:31.380 that song was really can we listen to it again and but there's an off I still go back to and

00:26:38.760 the people that I'm drawn to there's an authenticity about the way you bring it to

00:26:43.520 light that makes it about you I don't I understand like it's not you know but do you do you struggle

00:26:50.540 with criticism i used to again who's criticism no i used to i used to really it used to really

00:26:58.880 wound me i used to get really and i hate even saying that out loud because i'm somebody who's

00:27:02.940 like no it didn't bother me that's fine but it used to it really used to bother me um and it

00:27:08.580 doesn't so much anymore i i i honestly and i'm not saying this to like i'm not saying this out

00:27:13.580 of ego i haven't i haven't read a lot of criticism recently so so maybe that's why but it used to

00:27:19.900 really, it used to really, really bother me. Um, but I think the older you get, the more you start

00:27:25.560 to realize that's not really about you either. Like if you, and if you buy into the hype, if

00:27:29.960 you buy into the really greats, that's why I don't read reviews. People tell me about them

00:27:33.880 and I'm always thrilled. Like if somebody liked the show or if people, you know, like the songs

00:27:38.940 or, but if you buy into all that, you got to buy into this other stuff too. And I kind of feel like,

00:27:44.820 yeah you know do you think that's an element like we're a very similar age i feel like you get to a

00:27:50.820 certain age and you really do wish you could transfer it back to when you're 20. do you think

00:27:55.140 that's something about our age and what we've gone through and now perspective do you think

00:28:00.240 anybody who's 20 could possibly understand no i yeah no i mean and it's natural you can't like

00:28:07.280 you you you you shouldn't you should like criticism should bother you in your 20s and you know i yeah

00:28:14.100 I think it's a natural part of your development.

00:28:17.860 I mean, one of the things that I really, and I don't know why.

00:28:22.540 I'll tell you.

00:28:23.260 Actually, I do know why.

00:28:24.220 I'll tell you why.

00:28:24.840 I'm excited.

00:28:25.700 Straight up here with the philosophy of psychology stuff.

00:28:29.000 I'm embarrassed to admit how long this took, but it took until I was in my late 20s, early 30s.

00:28:34.340 And it was during that period that when I was sort of laying fallow, I wasn't really doing anything.

00:28:38.260 Pause.

00:28:38.860 What did you just use?

00:28:40.740 Oh, fallow.

00:28:41.360 I was laying fallow.

00:28:42.120 you know like when crops when they lay fallow you lay the field fallow come on man you're a teacher

00:28:47.240 listen i don't know everything you sound like the kids that asked me to explain how a battery works

00:28:53.800 that's how battery works wait it's a whole different interview now

00:28:59.160 there's some things i need to know get us an orange i've seen that been done okay so but

00:29:03.320 yeah so when i was doing nothing i was laying fallow um and uh somebody called me somebody

00:29:11.080 called somebody somebody found like who my age i still had an agent and somebody called my agent

00:29:15.800 and they wanted me to do something and i didn't want to do it and previous to this i would have

00:29:20.680 had like a manager or you know who could say no who could say no but i didn't i didn't have any

00:29:26.040 people so i was on the phone with my dad one day and i was telling him about and i was like oh my

00:29:32.040 god and and and i think they gave them my email and i think i got an email and now i don't know

00:29:35.800 what to do what should i do who am i going to have calls somebody has to call them back

00:29:38.840 and my and there was like silence on the other end of the phone my dad I said are you still there

00:29:44.160 my dad what the hell is the matter with you I said you're the best I said what do you mean

00:29:50.240 he said you're like 31 pick up the phone like call them back what are you so scared of 0.94

00:29:59.280 and like in that moment I was like oh right yeah yeah like what what am I doing why am I like this

00:30:08.080 and it had it had seeped into every area of my life now some of that is um protect some of that

00:30:14.420 is valuable some of that is protective some of that is like be aware of your surroundings and

00:30:19.300 right some of it comes from bad experiences but a lot of it is just people telling you that you

00:30:26.780 are you know like oh my god is oh no we'll do that for you you shouldn't have to do that

00:30:32.000 right and once you get past that and you kind of let that go it's it's it's it's not so scary

00:30:38.200 it's not that big of a deal do you think saying no is a problem uh to people not now think

00:30:44.260 yeah we don't care i'll say no to everybody but yeah but do you think it's also a problem to say

00:30:52.560 no back in the day because there's an element of people like i think women and i really want to

00:30:59.320 to you about the the difference about being a woman in this industry and a woman in life in

00:31:03.560 general right now but do you think that we're taught very very young to be cooperative to be

00:31:10.680 a team player to be you know i'm gonna probably take a guess even though i don't know even more

00:31:16.040 of that story with your manager and there was this sort of dependent relationship that went on

00:31:23.000 that would have been very comforting and very rational for you to step into um and so yeah

00:31:33.060 today it's easy but do you do you look back and go there was a lot of things when i was 25 that

00:31:39.100 i really didn't want to do but i just did them um no i i mean i can't say there were a lot of things

00:31:46.240 i didn't want to do that i did or that anybody forced me to do things i i will say that there

00:31:51.900 were times when things were explained to me in a way that made it seem like a

00:31:57.060 really good idea and then you internalize that and you think this is a

00:32:01.380 great idea I should do this and because why because it was my idea it wasn't

00:32:06.780 really your idea you know what I mean sure so there's there's some there was

00:32:10.020 some of that and some of it is just that you do the best you can and listen I'm

00:32:16.020 I'm not here to I think I think most of the people I've been very lucky most of

00:32:21.720 people i have come in contact with throughout my career have done the best they could sure people

00:32:26.360 are doing the best they can and i think for the most part people make the decisions for the most

00:32:31.960 part that they think you know like we're all in this together and we're all on a team and we're

00:32:37.160 trying to do the best we can to do what we think in this moment is going to be best for you um

00:32:42.280 but i also think that it's really really easy to fall into a mindset where people are doing things

00:32:48.760 for you all the time right and it's it and then you get the added bonus of that whole passive

00:32:55.000 aggressive thing it was like well it wasn't me it was you know it was my agent it was my manager

00:32:58.760 it was him it was it and that makes you um it makes you a bad leader it makes you a bad leader

00:33:07.000 because a leader you know within the confines of whether you're fronting a band whether you're

00:33:11.880 funding a management company whether whatever it is that you know it is the ability to number one

00:33:19.000 say like i don't know maybe we should ask someone who knows or um well it's not really me you have

00:33:25.720 to talk to so-and-so sure right people who fear sort of and it doesn't have to be like a big

00:33:31.080 confrontation i don't like i don't want to answer that question or no i'm good i don't want to talk

00:33:36.680 about that sure or no i don't think we're gonna be able to do that but when you're 25 it's really

00:33:43.560 hard it's it's it's a lot easier to be like well you can talk to my manager and work it out yeah

00:33:50.680 you know i think that you you just tapped on something that's so powerful the idea that if

00:33:55.320 you want to be a good leader you have to learn to do the hard things if you're not going to do the

00:33:59.400 hard things you're not going to ever move from that place that you started in yeah right and

00:34:04.440 until i think everybody until you're shoved into the hard things who the heck wants to do them

00:34:10.520 yeah exactly nobody wants to do them if i can get somebody look my mortgage is coming up i'm like

00:34:16.440 who can i who can you know what i mean i don't want to do the hard things i don't want to have

00:34:21.320 the hard conversations i don't want to fight a speeding like just anything if i could avoid it

00:34:26.440 i would absolutely and i think that's funnily enough going back to those codependent relationships

00:34:31.880 that I think we all find ourselves, whether it's friends, whether it's a partner, whether it's a

00:34:35.580 man, it doesn't matter. You offshoot something. And when the, when that relationship is going to

00:34:40.900 end, I wonder how much we're really fearful of losing that person or, or losing the person that

00:34:50.440 dealt with the mortgage or whatever the thing is. Yeah. Whatever the thing is. Right. Because I think

00:34:55.100 we get very comfortable in that and there's a level there's a there's a pretense of safety

00:35:00.860 uh and it makes us feel warm and fuzzy and i think also when you're um one of the big things

00:35:05.860 for me was when you're younger you think you're the only person this has ever happened to and

00:35:10.100 it's the only you're the only person who's going through this you have no frame of reference and

00:35:14.360 it's not until you get to be a little older and you look back and you realize like everybody

00:35:18.440 everybody's doing the same thing yeah and i think i mean shifting into you're jumping back in you

00:35:24.860 have a new album you get on tour you're writing a new single you can't um but this is a brave

00:35:31.840 new world right now because of social media how does that feel for somebody who you know in the

00:35:39.040 in the late 80s the 90s that's a whole different genre right nobody knew anything about you

00:35:44.900 little blurbs in like something entertainment tonight or something, but not like now. Right.

00:35:50.900 So how does that, how do you feel about that? I know it's, it is, it's really funny that you're

00:35:55.940 here today because we've been talking, that's, I've spent my afternoon talking about this,

00:35:59.340 about social media. Um, you know, my initially I thought, I thought it was, you're right. I did

00:36:07.920 not initially recognize when I first came back into sort of the public eye it was really it was

00:36:15.000 tricky because I was like well I'm a really private person and I don't really want that to

00:36:18.940 change and I want to be able to sort of have a meaningful relationship with the people who

00:36:25.080 like the work that I'm doing and you also want to be able to communicate with those people but I

00:36:30.020 don't really want to communicate with them in a way that's like too personal and there's also this

00:36:34.500 weird like self-protection thing that kicks in because you're worried about your own sort of

00:36:38.080 safety and security um what i love about it is the creative aspect of it i think it is an enormously

00:36:46.140 valuable tool and if you're not uh if you're not on stage you can be doing something that is

00:36:53.160 incredibly satisfying and creative and meaningful to people which is exactly what this is you know

00:36:59.520 what i mean i think it is so um it's so valuable and so great that so many people are able to

00:37:07.320 be creative and directly connected to this sounds weird but connect directly connected to an audience

00:37:15.460 yeah right absolutely that that part really excites me i love that and i think yeah i think

00:37:21.340 directly can and nobody's and i don't know how it works for for obviously other celebrities and

00:37:27.220 other artists but like there's no intermediary or there doesn't have to be you know and so for

00:37:32.740 an average person who's never been on stage who's never done this and never picks up you know their

00:37:37.200 video camera you you could be turned into a star like the next day yeah just because you resonate

00:37:45.000 so that the gatekeeper aspect has kind of yeah gone yeah like it's gone for lots of different

00:37:51.760 reasons but this has really pushed it into overdrive right and at the beginning I was

00:37:55.980 really like i miss the gatekeeper can we bring the gatekeeper back because something there i will

00:38:00.780 admit i don't know if you feel this way but like sometimes you feel like you've had um a relationship

00:38:06.540 with somebody whether it's a musician or whoever and then through the uh the power of social media

00:38:12.720 you start to realize oh i wish i knew less i would like to know like is there any way i could go back

00:38:18.320 to knowing less because i was happy with less sure you know what i mean yeah you don't want to

00:38:23.700 your heroes you want yeah i'm like don't don't don't yeah yeah no just yeah yeah yeah i but i

00:38:32.340 think it's funny i think that's you're right because i think but what it does is it really

00:38:38.500 equalizes the playing field yes it means it it allows people average people to go oh they can

00:38:46.660 step in it just as easily as i can now now when you step into it you know entertainment tonight

00:38:52.820 reports on it but it's different i get that and so the the the tidal wave that you would face do

00:38:58.500 you ever find that people with social media and i know that you probably post a lot but aren't

00:39:04.180 necessarily you know interacting as much um fan expectation of you do you find it's risen

00:39:11.940 in terms of what i'm hosting or how often how often you're posting or if you'll interact at

00:39:17.460 all or anything like that oh yeah i don't know it's you might you might use it in a different

00:39:22.660 way yeah i mean the thing is i don't um huh yeah that's it's a good it is a good question i don't

00:39:30.020 really know it's it's funny because i'm thinking about this a lot lately i don't know what people's

00:39:34.660 expectations are honestly for like for my um interactions on social media i think people have

00:39:40.340 people come into uh your they come onto your channels with a certain especially when you've

00:39:45.780 even away like I have they have sort of a predetermined expectation their own expectation

00:39:51.600 of what they think they're going to find yeah and that used to really kind of make me

00:39:58.300 uh feel very self-conscious because I used to think I don't want to disappoint anybody

00:40:02.680 I don't want to make you know it's like it that's the thing that celebrity does anyway

00:40:07.060 is that every room you walk into people already feel like they know something about you yeah right

00:40:12.300 so social media is sort of like a bigger version of that room so in the beginning i think i was

00:40:17.180 like well i really don't want to disappoint anybody um but what i have found is the more

00:40:22.940 the more authentically yourself you are the more people immediately recognize that

00:40:30.520 and the people who will really gravitate towards you they really gravitate towards you you know

00:40:36.780 what i mean and they will share that with their friends and say oh you know oh this is so me this

00:40:41.680 is so us this this whatever it is whether you're resharing a joke or you're telling them about a

00:40:47.380 piece of yourself I think people really really they can tell the difference between which sounds

00:40:52.840 weird because social media is all fake right but I think but I think people can tell but I do I do

00:41:00.400 think people can tell the difference between like what is real and what is you know what's authentic

00:41:04.600 and what isn't authentic real and fake media do you think that's getting back to so going back to

00:41:10.200 music do you think it's shifting sort of a sense of music back to record it off the floor you're

00:41:18.440 not going to get 18 takes I mean this metaphorically as maybe a little bit literally I need

00:41:23.600 but but you know what I mean like we we know there's so much production that can go into it

00:41:30.580 and you get to that live show and you're like that's not the album I heard you know and so

00:41:36.780 do you think it's forcing a more authentic you know like quick you know queen did everything

00:41:43.860 live off the floor we do it and i take that's what we record let's have a nice day that's it

00:41:47.820 do you think it's forcing more of that more yes all no i think it's forcing some and i think that

00:41:56.220 i'm constantly shocked by anybody younger than me who plays an instrument because i'm like wow

00:42:02.540 you learned to play an instrument good for you like really really you're not you're not just

00:42:07.540 pressing buttons you're not just in pro tools that's amazing yeah um so yeah i think i'm

00:42:12.740 constantly surprised that that the of the enduring power of the learning process people are really

00:42:18.440 they want to learn how to play piano they want to learn how to play instruments and i think that is

00:42:22.820 a testament to the fact that kids crave that kind of tactile thing so they really do want to

00:42:28.800 something to bang on yeah right make noise um the the yeah i mean it's not forcing everybody to do

00:42:37.200 it it's not it's not it's not stamping out um you know uh uh automated production in music

00:42:46.960 i am all for a healthy mix of the two i think you know i think if you um it's to me it's the

00:42:53.280 same as anything else it's the same as editing or you know photoshopping your pictures if it's

00:42:58.800 a producer said to me once this was in the 90s it was when um um nothing compares to you

00:43:07.360 Sinead O'Connor came out and we were riding in his car one day he said you know that song came

00:43:13.560 on the radio and he said you know this this focal take is like an unphotoshopped magazine cover he

00:43:20.180 was like and that's I said what do you mean he said well you know the reason it's so gripping

00:43:24.960 is because it's imperfect right and if they had auto-tuned the take it would have been perfect

00:43:34.000 but it wouldn't be real which is why people when when you buy whenever i buy an album right uh and

00:43:40.960 and you the live version is always always the version you're like oh my god you forgot your

00:43:48.580 own line and it's in it's amazing yeah and you let the people sing it or you mess up or you know you

00:43:54.900 start on the wrong note or the wrong key or whatever and that's in my head that's what people

00:44:01.700 i feel like are a little bit more authentically drawn to um because you're right it's the

00:44:07.540 imperfections that make it interesting that make it compelling um and then make it human and the

00:44:13.860 more human it is i just feel like yeah and it's one of the reasons why um it's one of the reasons

00:44:19.460 why i believe very strongly you know uh every show that we do something has to be different

00:44:27.060 every show that we do i do something and whether it's an improvisational you know whether we're

00:44:31.380 mashing up a song we do that i do that a lot um where i'm very kind of off the cuff and i'll start

00:44:37.060 singing another song in the middle of a song but it's always but there always has to be something

00:44:41.220 different because to me and i actually and i one of the people that um i that really i sort of stole

00:44:47.460 that from was prince prince was a guy who had that innate ability he could do anything he could play

00:44:52.980 anything he could sing anything but you always knew when you were going to see him live and i i

00:44:57.940 was lucky enough to see him live a bunch of times and you always knew when you were going to see him

00:45:01.300 live that it was just for you like that that night was just for that audience right and you were

00:45:07.700 never and you were going to tell your friends about it and now people can record it on their

00:45:10.900 phones and they can show their friends but it was so uh it was it was special because it was it was

00:45:17.540 a one-off we're never gonna get to see there you go does that drive you crazy at concerts

00:45:22.900 no watching just filming no but it was weird when we first came back uh and we started and

00:45:29.220 i started touring i was shocked at the number of people who would like feel comfortable walking up

00:45:34.100 to the edge of the stage with their or as close as they could get like with their phones like in

00:45:38.180 the middle of the show like hey yeah can you say hi to my like what i'm this is what i'm like i'm

00:45:45.300 in the same i'm singing i'm in the middle of it we'd like to bring back some boundaries what is

00:45:50.900 happening now yeah can we take a selfie what i'm like this is that's what i'm saying expectations

00:45:57.700 have shifted yeah but i think that's also because a lot of people are used to watching things on the

00:46:02.180 screen now so i think it takes people a minute to adjust like no no no this is actually happening

00:46:06.500 like here in real time yeah don't don't respond like that now i would say well look now she's

00:46:14.340 telling us five more minutes i asked her not to come unless she's sitting over here watching

00:46:19.100 she said five more minutes um i have a big question for you five minutes we're in a very

00:46:26.160 unique moment in time i think politically socially um a lot of your music if if not all

00:46:36.680 actually uh very much focused on relationships very much focused on love or want very you know

00:46:42.800 that kind of situation you've never and correct me if i'm wrong and i'm really going to stick my

00:46:48.240 foot in but you've never really you've never really jumped into the politics or i've never

00:46:52.580 really heard you speak on it in any way, shape, or form. Is that purposeful? Is that not where

00:46:58.320 your passion lies? Do you speak differently? And what do you think? If you've never been political,

00:47:03.940 can you please be political? I'd like to know who you voted for.

00:47:11.180 So you're half right.

00:47:13.780 How we should vote in Ontario. Stand by.

00:47:15.760 Exactly. It's coming. It's coming. You're half right. I mean, my records have been

00:47:22.200 i would say a solid 70 30 mix of probably you know love songs and the relationship stuff and

00:47:28.640 then 30 of it is like quiet kind of socio-political commentary that i slide in under the radar sure

00:47:34.560 um i'm trying to remember give me an example so uh shades of gray double agent double agent yes

00:47:41.460 that's the one i was so they're all there's a song on this record called god forbid on heavy

00:47:45.980 lifting called god forbid um yeah there's a song on this there's another song on this record called

00:47:50.300 special uh right they're right they're all so they're all kind of um if not political but sort

00:47:56.720 of social social commentary yeah my take on uh politics and music is this i think uh i think

00:48:03.640 for me this and this goes back to people's expectations yeah i think my politics are pretty

00:48:08.940 obvious and i and it's funny i've talked to other musicians about this and there are those people

00:48:15.800 who feel really you know that everybody has to know their opinion about everything and they want

00:48:19.840 to help you out and give you guidance and it's very important to vote and on who to vote for

00:48:24.180 uh and then there are people who never talk about that stuff and they don't want to talk about it

00:48:30.320 i'm somewhere in the middle i think i mean i'm here and i think my politics are probably i think

00:48:35.500 you can probably tell just by looking at me what my politics are and about what i'm singing about

00:48:39.840 um it's a it's a really delicate balance because i'm also i'm of two minds i'm very very very in

00:48:46.620 my personal and private sort of private life i'm very very passionate and very very outspoken and

00:48:51.800 i have very very strong opinions i am also um in my kind of um uh i don't care what people think

00:49:00.500 era so i'm kind of like really you think the earth is flat good for you yeah good luck god bless god

00:49:05.440 right i'm not here to argue with you i'm not here to like i'm not driving around with a bumper

00:49:09.780 sticker on my car yeah yeah good for you good luck right um yeah and so i'm sort of somewhere in the

00:49:15.840 that is one aspect of social media. We were just talking about this a minute ago.

00:49:20.740 That is one aspect of social media that drives me crazy because it's a really hard line to walk.

00:49:25.740 On the one hand, you know, you want, you want to try to be helpful. And sometimes people feel

00:49:30.900 that they're being helpful by telling everybody what their opinion is. On the other hand,

00:49:35.860 you know, on the other hand, are you really being helpful? Is anything going, you know,

00:49:41.500 are you really changing people's minds? I don't know. I, I, I personally have a very, uh, George

00:49:48.140 Carlin, uh, take on humanity. And I think it comes from part of me is, you know, to me, he was a guy

00:49:56.900 and I am, I am very much like this. I think the most cynical and kind of misanthropic among us

00:50:03.240 are those who have been the most heartbroken by the reality of the human condition. Right. And

00:50:09.380 it's it's so easy to uh to kind of write off humanity but secretly you're really rooting

00:50:18.480 for people you know it's the people who love people george carlin used to say i love people

00:50:22.920 i love people individually it's when they get together in groups and they start to clot they

00:50:26.900 actually that i can't take it it's true yeah it's true um we gotta go because like i'm just saying

00:50:33.920 it's all her over there uh and i'm gonna stop recording this so amanda can tell me what song

00:50:41.540 she's gonna record after this she's gonna whisper it right here thanks for coming we'll see you next

00:50:47.260 tuesday same bad time same bad channel amanda you're amazing thank you so much bye guys dismissed

Unlearn16: Class is in Session - February 18, 2025

The One Where I Let It Rain with Amanda Marshall

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