Unlearn16: Class is in Session - February 28, 2023


The One Where I Find The God Particle... Or At Least Alanis Morisette

Topics
The One Where Use The Bully To Change The World The One Where I Tell You Why He Left

Episode Stats


Length

43 minutes

Words per minute

167.41

Word count

7,239

Sentence count

288

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Toxicity

7

sentences flagged

Hate speech

24

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 class is in session hi everybody welcome to unlearn 16 guys today today i've decided to
00:00:10.560 traverse to go into an area i never go into to be perfectly honest and i'm going to go there
00:00:17.200 with humor and some serious questions and bring you along for the ride with reverend daniel who
00:00:23.440 I've had, I don't know, the lucky, I feel myself lucky to have found you on Twitter and to have found the way in which you are able to craft your words on that platform to put people in their place and predominantly, let's say, from your side of the religious fence.
00:00:46.500 Welcome. Thank you so much for coming on. Maybe you can give the listeners a little bit about yourself so we know where we're starting from.
00:00:53.440 Yeah, thanks for having me. So my name is Daniel Brereton. I'm an Anglican priest in the Anglican Church of Canada. I've been ordained, it'll be 25 years this May. I'm a parish priest. I have a small congregation in Mississauga, just outside Toronto in Ontario.
00:01:14.560 um but a number of years ago i got involved on twitter and and that's kind of just grown into
00:01:22.300 a big part of my ministry and uh and over covid when churches and like everything else sort of
00:01:28.380 shut down um the whole online thing became really important and and one of the main ways that i
00:01:34.920 engage not only my own parishioners but other people and um yeah that's it's it's been a really
00:01:41.280 interesting experience sort of being religious online uh and not in a right-wing fundamentalist
00:01:49.360 kind of way because they as we as we'll talk about i'm sure they they dominate the religion
00:01:55.200 religious uh area absolutely absolutely you first of all okay i'm gonna ask as everybody i am not i
00:02:02.720 would consider myself agnostic uh maybe leaning towards atheism although i really hope for zeus
00:02:08.880 is that i'm just putting that out there um get good what i've always been drawn to
00:02:17.120 and i have some friends like this i have some co-workers like this i've always been drawn
00:02:22.800 to an authentic faith and what i mean by that is you can i think you can see coming a mile away
00:02:28.480 somebody who just feels something in their heart and has no push or desire or drive to make sure
00:02:36.640 that what they believe and what they connect to is what everybody else needs to connect to um and so
00:02:43.360 i've always been drawn to that and right away re you know reading your tweets i'm like oh no this
00:02:48.080 guy this guy's amazing can i ask a question about anglicanism before we start sure is it true i just
00:02:56.080 want to make it clear i i am not authorized to speak on behalf of the whole anglican communion
00:03:00.560 but i will do my best i'm gonna get that out of the way wait is it true that really the only
00:03:07.440 difference between catholicism and anglicanism is the whole divorce is that about the crux of it
00:03:15.200 the i just made you nervous
00:03:20.320 uh the anglican church uh organizationally separated from rome over henry gates divorce
00:03:29.040 got it a moment i am i got it yeah um but i know this there's a lot there's a lot more differences
00:03:35.540 um i mean you know the thing is the roman catholic church it's one church throughout the world right
00:03:41.980 with one pope uh so it's the roman catholic church in canada or the roman catholic church
00:03:47.160 in the united states whereas i am part of the anglican church of canada so the anglican church
00:03:53.560 which is worldwide, is made up of independent national churches, which have a historical link to the Church of England, but they're independent.
00:04:02.980 So you have Anglican churches that ordain women as priests and bishops and others that don't.
00:04:08.100 You have Anglican churches that authorize same-sex marriage and others that don't.
00:04:13.120 Oh, there's a lot of balls in the air then.
00:04:17.120 Yeah, it's kind of like the Commonwealth where we all have these kind of historic connections to England that were independent.
00:04:22.660 yeah oh my god okay so so it depends on the okay yeah all right so it's kind of like you guys
00:04:29.740 really are the the very sort of i guess link between complete protestantism which is like
00:04:38.920 individual connection to god individual you know and 50 000 different sex and then catholicism
00:04:44.780 i can never say the word sect properly in order to make sure people don't think i'm saying sex
00:04:51.380 No, I was in this show, this play called The Clergy Project. And we had this poster with myself, a Unitarian minister and a woman Jewish rabbi. And the three of us are walking down the street, all in our robes. And the meme was sex in the city, which I love.
00:05:09.300 So that's amazing. So it's really it really sits in the middle, right? It sits in the middle of this very dominant hierarchy and papal infallibility of the Catholic Church. And then the sort of I don't wish to say free for all, but it's kind of what I mean of the Protestant, like a whole bunch of different divisions.
00:05:31.960 I, I've studied some religion. I teach world religion. So I'm superficially, let's say, aware of, you know, some of those some of those lines. Okay, so you're not just about divorce. There's a lot of different things going on. Women can be ministers is a big thing. Obviously, same sex marriage is a big thing. Yeah, I met I'm going to tell you a quick story. And then I want us to get into Twitter and what you think about it.
00:05:58.880 But, um, I, when I was in like third university, my dad passed and I was very upset, but at the
00:06:04.380 same time I was taking world religions class and I didn't know what to do with all of this. Cause
00:06:08.000 like, it was like a long time ago, nobody went to therapy. No, you just don't. And then moved
00:06:13.440 on with your day. And the funny part was, and especially me, I'm very, I was very closed off
00:06:19.220 kind of thing. I wasn't out yet. I was just very much like, I'm just going to do school.
00:06:22.980 and I was doing a research project about whatever my world religious class and I was comparing
00:06:30.840 Anglicanism and another faith and I went and I just got a random interview with an Anglican
00:06:36.480 minister that happened to be on here on campus in in um western at western university that's where
00:06:43.540 I went I graduated from here on college yeah oh my god so I I wish I could remember this woman's
00:06:49.440 name I would drive just to be counseled by her and I went to her and I asked her all the questions
00:06:54.320 I had to ask and at some point she said are you okay and I was just like like everything came out
00:07:03.340 of my mouth and I kept going back to her she she counseled me she she was my therapist yeah she
00:07:09.280 never spoke about God one time it wasn't like that it was like here try this try writing this
00:07:15.020 kind of thing or try doing this or try speaking this and i was i was a she was a woman so that
00:07:22.100 was rare for the time and be the way she spoke i remember her early on when i was interviewing her
00:07:29.040 probably what made me feel so comfortable is i was talking about different faiths and different
00:07:33.620 let's say paths to a creator whatever you want and she she goes to be honest and this is what
00:07:42.240 I love about her. God, I wish I could remember her name. She said, I was born in Christianity.
00:07:47.600 I was born in this culture. I was born in this time. So is that probably why I stand where I
00:07:53.900 stand? Yes. But when I think, for example, of a Buddhist mentality or a Hindu belief and this
00:08:02.400 notion that God is everywhere or the way that you come about, that kind of record, do I see it all
00:08:08.840 is interconnected? Yeah. Yeah, I do. And she said, so I don't care how anybody gets, which I've never
00:08:16.260 heard anybody say until that moment. She goes, I don't care how anybody feels connected
00:08:23.000 to something bigger. And that something bigger, it was just so opposite any religious figure ever,
00:08:31.300 right? Like in my head, it's the old white guy with the long hair sitting in the big throne
00:08:34.980 behind the gates right um you know or alanis morissette if you've seen dogma one of the two 0.64
00:08:42.340 um and i'm not sure which is scarier actually but who would i want to face in the next life i'm not
00:08:48.820 sure but damn it if we know what the word irony means exactly you want to know what i was amazed
00:09:00.340 by. And it didn't make me want, it's not like I'm like rushing to join a faith of any kind, 0.90
00:09:07.960 but it made me love the idea of being connected. And I see that pattern
00:09:12.860 replicated again and again and again in a whole bunch of different ways.
00:09:19.160 How do you see that? Like you're Christian, were you born into it? Is this something,
00:09:25.080 because I always am fascinated with how do you choose? Look, there's 12 major world religions,
00:09:29.640 if you're not counting a lot of the other, right?
00:09:32.260 Do you sit there and do you choose
00:09:34.660 or can we acknowledge that it's kind of like time and place
00:09:37.640 that kind of, you know?
00:09:39.680 I mean, I think what this woman said to you,
00:09:44.100 I mean, I would repeat a lot of what she said
00:09:46.440 in the sense that, you know,
00:09:48.280 I was raised in a Christian family.
00:09:51.240 We were baptized and I have a twin sister.
00:09:54.060 We were baptized and raised in the Anglican church.
00:09:56.820 But I mean, my family wasn't super religious.
00:09:59.020 It was more of a sort of Christmas and Easter and maybe a couple of other times a year kind
00:10:03.220 of thing.
00:10:03.940 It was always there as part of our community, but, you know, we, we didn't say, you know,
00:10:09.700 we didn't say grace before every meal or anything like that.
00:10:12.900 And, and so, you know, I was raised with a sense of this is part of my identity.
00:10:17.160 And I think a big part of it was, you know, we, we came from an English culture.
00:10:23.080 You know, we, I grew up in a fairly small town where everybody was white and predominantly
00:10:28.180 Christian unless they said otherwise. So yeah, it was very much part of my culture. But at the same
00:10:33.560 time, my parents made us very aware that there were other, there were other churches, there were
00:10:39.120 other faiths. And they, that was fine, too. You know, there was always a sense of, it's like
00:10:46.940 raising your child to speak a certain language. But if they want to learn another language down
00:10:52.120 the road, that's great, too. But here's at least something to start with. So I was never raised
00:10:57.400 with this exclusive idea of Christianity.
00:11:00.780 And, you know, and I have to be grateful
00:11:02.880 to the ministers I had and the Sunday school teachers
00:11:05.560 and the people in my church
00:11:06.900 that Christianity was about loving each other
00:11:11.040 and that God, whatever God was, you know,
00:11:16.200 was we saw God in Jesus
00:11:19.140 in the sense of the kind of teachings that Jesus did,
00:11:23.300 what he taught about love and service and forgiveness
00:11:27.380 that was God. And so where you experienced those things, that was God. And so people might call
00:11:33.760 that by another name or people might reach that by another path and that was all fine.
00:11:37.540 So I have to say that growing up, I mean, I thought that was Christianity. And then when I
00:11:43.280 kind of left home and I went to school and I started to encounter a kind of a more fundamentalist,
00:11:50.580 right-wing, evangelical Christianity and realizing that was actually the dominant
00:11:55.640 image most people had of Christianity, I found that shocking because that was so foreign to me.
00:12:02.880 And I've had to learn how to sort of not speak that language, but understand that world because
00:12:09.900 that for so many people is what Christianity is. And for a long time, I kind of just dissociated
00:12:15.200 myself from that and said, that's not my faith. But yeah, for many people it is. But yeah,
00:12:22.840 I would just say that for me, there is something bigger that connects us all.
00:12:30.160 And somehow it's important for me to connect, feel a connection with that.
00:12:36.320 And the more I connect with that, the more I feel connected with other people, with creation itself.
00:12:42.680 And I have an interest in helping people who wish to find a way to connect in that way.
00:12:48.740 I have a serious question and a funny question.
00:12:50.920 What do you like first?
00:12:51.620 oh let's go with the funny question the 33 years jesus right what's he doing in the teenage years
00:12:59.080 i feel like we're missing a really good story you know there's the the bethlehem born and then all
00:13:08.440 of a sudden he's just this i think we missed some dodgy years i'm not gonna lie i want to hear i
00:13:13.540 want to see the movie of jesus as a teenager that's what i was i i mean there's lots of great
00:13:19.900 I mean, there's lots of theories about that, right?
00:13:22.280 You know, like he traveled, you know, he spent time in India that he studied with Buddhists.
00:13:30.200 I mean, a lot of people have acknowledged similarities between his teachings and Buddha.
00:13:35.940 So they wonder, was there an influence?
00:13:38.860 I mean, I just, I think he's, I think he spent his time as an obscure teenager in a small Galilean town and.
00:13:46.520 Gotta be more.
00:13:47.800 I mean, come on.
00:13:49.280 he's all going to be walking on water at 33 and he doesn't do anything all the way up until then
00:13:54.020 but if he's god incarnate does he need to go anywhere to to to know all this stuff
00:13:59.380 but okay we can come back to the trinity i mean now we're going to get deep and now we're going
00:14:06.100 to get deep um i i've i've lost my other question because that one was so funny oh i do know this
00:14:12.240 how and this is a lot of my listeners i'm just going to ask you every question i've ever had
00:14:17.420 about religion only because i don't necessarily have these questions these conversations very
00:14:21.760 often how do you know that's a question every agnostic and atheist i think want to know when
00:14:30.260 you say there i am connected to something i am you know when you talk about that when you say
00:14:38.560 there's this connection i just want to share it yeah to somebody for me for example how would you
00:14:45.560 explain it to me that you know? Well, first of all, I would say I don't know. I mean, that's why
00:14:51.160 we call it faith. Part of it is, and I don't mean that as a get out of, you know, let's get out of
00:14:57.860 this question, like digging around it. But I mean, I always say that any faith really is agnostic,
00:15:07.320 that there isn't, at least there's a level of agnosticism to any healthy faith, because if
00:15:13.600 you're claiming you know and you're certain, what do you need to believe for? What do you need to
00:15:19.320 have faith in? Because faith is, you know, as St. Paul says, faith is, you know, hope and belief in
00:15:26.460 those things that we can't see and that we don't know. So, I mean, yeah, I think all faith is to
00:15:32.840 some degree agnostic. It's not about knowing. It's about choosing to believe. And sometimes you do
00:15:41.680 that. And sometimes that choice is really easy because I, I sense that connection. I, and that
00:15:46.960 connection for me is, is love. That connection for me is, is there's a sense of meaning. There's a
00:15:52.280 sense of, of there's something going on here that's bigger than us and this moment. And I can
00:15:58.180 feel that really strongly. And other times I'm like, you know, I'm grappling in the dark going,
00:16:04.420 I don't sense this. I don't feel God. I don't know what God is doing. If God is doing anything here,
00:16:09.660 but i'm choosing to believe um because an impressive answer go ahead and say you know
00:16:16.520 when you when you say how do you know you're you're you're connected um again i i don't know
00:16:21.100 that it's always about feeling connected but it's about seeking that connection you know it's kind
00:16:27.000 of like when you're trying to connect to wi-fi and it's not coming up yeah and it's not coming
00:16:31.960 up on the screen but you know but yeah but you know there's at least one bar and maybe and you've
00:16:37.880 connected before so you just keep trying until it works oh my god i just saw the cover of a book
00:16:43.980 you should write with the little wi-fi and like jesus one jesus i've made promises to many many
00:16:52.340 people over the years that i will never write a book because i think there's too many people
00:16:55.660 that are terrified i will oh my god it would be genius it would be genius now let's get to
00:17:02.320 how I came across you came across you and like how you handle yourself on Twitter because
00:17:09.220 let's just say Twitter speaking of hellscapes that's it if there's a portal to hell we know
00:17:16.340 where it go where it's you know yeah um and especially when it comes to right now and I 0.97
00:17:25.300 think it's a really good time to talk about it but right now obviously the gay issue has always
00:17:31.880 been that thing, right? Always, always, not of every faith, not of every denomination, 0.92
00:17:37.120 obviously, as you said about the Anglican church, and now the trans community, right? So you have 0.90
00:17:46.060 major, and well, let's throw an abortion. Let's just throw it all in there. Let's just, 1.00
00:17:51.920 everything that Twitter goes mental about and everything that the right, especially in the
00:17:56.440 United States and in Canada, because you can hear Pierre just mimicking everything.
00:18:01.220 Yeah.
00:18:01.880 let's handle the big three. Being gay, abortion, being trans. Which one do you want to talk about? 0.99
00:18:13.160 I can speak personally about the gay thing, trans and abortion. I have some thoughts on,
00:18:19.540 but not experience. Let's talk with the gay thing then. Let's start there. 1.00
00:18:22.360 I saw a great, did you see the documentary or have you seen clips of the 1946 documentary?
00:18:27.860 Clips of it, yeah.
00:18:28.820 Okay, so the 1946 documentary, if anybody hasn't seen clips or hasn't seen the actual thing, was the idea that the word homosexual did not appear in any version of the Bible until 1946.
00:18:44.760 And it, from what I understand, it took place of the word pedophile, or it was reinterpreted.
00:18:52.720 Yeah. I mean, the original Greek word in its translation suggests pedophilia or sex with a temple prostitute. Like it wasn't just sex between men. There was a context there. 0.99
00:19:12.500 Stop right now. We should just do a whole podcast on temple prostitutes. 1.00
00:19:16.140 Again, not something I have a lot of experience with.
00:19:19.040 going to google all right after this sorry so go ahead so so yeah i mean i think what happened
00:19:25.880 with that is that is that um a very specific context around you know what we what we could
00:19:33.600 say is you know does the bible talk about homosexual activity yes but always within
00:19:38.940 specific context right and that context was lost by just sort of using the word homosexual
00:19:44.940 it suddenly meant that the context of the act doesn't matter anymore.
00:19:50.060 Just the fact that someone is homosexual is itself a sin and to be condemned.
00:19:56.640 And so a whole political cultural bias that isn't necessarily there in those passages is suddenly applied to all of those passages. 0.58
00:20:07.540 And just the whole Bible is against homosexuality now.
00:20:11.020 And then, you know, several generations growing up with that.
00:20:14.940 Now, let's break this down a little bit, because I think about this in two ways. I'm going to put the whole, I'm going to put, it wasn't ever in the Bible. I'm going to put that over here for a second, because that's one road. The one road is you forget the context. You're not paying attention to the context. So therefore, you know, we're going to, we'll deal with that separately. Let's, let's say, for argument's sake, it's in there. And it's only in the Old Testament. Am I right?
00:20:40.240 uh no there are um there are passages in uh like in paul's letter to the romans that talks about
00:20:48.420 god um you know giving giving them over to unnatural lusts and desires for you know their
00:20:57.500 own their own sex kind of thing so um so there i mean inference in that or was it more specific
00:21:04.600 are you just trying to be careful with your words right now no i think i think it i think it was um
00:21:10.240 So, yeah, I mean, yes, I think there is condemnation of, of same sex activity in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. But again, I think, I think you have to look at the context around that. And even in, in Paul's letters to the Romans, where he's, where he's talking about this, what's often missed is that he's basically setting his audience up because he's basically saying to the Christian church in Rome, which is made up of Jews and Gentiles.
00:21:39.180 he's going through all of this because his whole his whole idea is we're all sin we're all sinners
00:21:45.620 we all fall short we all need god's grace and so what he does is he goes through and he lists all
00:21:50.780 of these taboos which would have you know all the people in the church would have been like yes those
00:21:55.400 people are terrible those people are beyond the pale and just as he's got them all worked up about
00:21:59.820 all those sinners that god condemns he pulls the roll the rug from out from under them and says and 0.97
00:22:04.980 you, you guys are just as bad. You need God's grace just as much. So the point wasn't to point
00:22:11.840 out, here's all the people God condemns, but to make the bigger argument that in judging others,
00:22:17.520 you yourself are guilty of the, of the thing you're judging others for.
00:22:22.060 Now, here's, here's the argument I tend to think about when people talk, even when people raise it,
00:22:27.560 like without the context, forget that, you know what I mean? They're just like, it's there,
00:22:31.520 it's there it's there and i my response would always be so is slavery yeah exactly exactly so
00:22:38.880 my question is if you are adamantly opposed to homosexuality are you adamantly in support
00:22:50.160 yeah slavery because i'm going to need to hear those two sentences go hand in hand 0.93
00:22:54.160 Right. Because if the Bible, old and new, is infallible in the sense of context or infallible in the sense of application to today, then if you ate fish, if you ate meat on Friday, what?
00:23:11.160 yeah right and then and so it all kind of falls apart and that's where i start to say
00:23:16.680 well if like i feel like that's a valid is it a valid way to go at the argument or do people just
00:23:23.820 you know no i think that is and i mean that that's something that you know that's an argument i've
00:23:28.680 often had it's like it you know as as a more i guess i i probably would be called a more liberal
00:23:34.840 or progressive Christian. And one of the, you know, the constant accusations from the right
00:23:41.260 wing evangelicals are, well, you people don't take, you people cherry pick the Bible. You decide
00:23:46.580 which parts of the Bible you want to follow and what you like, and then you ignore the rest.
00:23:51.160 Well, there's nobody that doesn't do that. Everyone cherry picks. You can't, because the
00:23:58.540 Bible contradicts itself in some places. You know, so yes, I think, I mean, I think that's a great
00:24:05.840 argument that, you know, yes, let's say the Bible's against homosexuality, but it's against all kinds 0.63
00:24:11.000 of things that we all do now. It seems to support things that we've all, as a culture, have agreed 0.89
00:24:18.500 to get rid of, like slavery. You know, and what I find is that, you know, my argument has always
00:24:25.480 been why why are the goalposts allowed to move on certain issues right which which even the most
00:24:32.120 fundamentalist churches have accepted uh like divorce right i mean jesus is pretty clear
00:24:38.080 there's no divorce in his mind um and yet you know there's lots of divorced pastors out there
00:24:45.760 that have no problem with that but but why this issue so and it just and it does seem when you go
00:24:51.660 when you look back over history there's there's always there's always one issue or one group of
00:24:56.620 people that are the scapegoat right these are the people you know whether it's witches or like women
00:25:01.660 were burning at the stake as witches or whether it's the jews because they killed christ or
00:25:06.540 whether it's you know the lgbt community or whatever there's always that group that this 0.99
00:25:12.540 generation of christians is going to focus on as being the you know they're the source of all sin 1.00
00:25:19.960 and corruption in our society and it's that need to find a scapegoat that i think you know i have
00:25:27.720 the biggest problem with i mean jesus is crucified himself as a scapegoat right why do we keep
00:25:33.480 crucifying each other you know cool that's a that's a great sentence you just said there why
00:25:39.640 do we keep crucifying each other um yeah i think that i mean i i think it's a natural tendency
00:25:48.760 unfortunately, to find simplistic solutions to complicated problems. And I think there's a very
00:25:55.700 simplistic, and I've said this before in maybe different podcasts, but I think there is a 0.81
00:26:00.760 simplistic solution or idea, and it totally makes sense, why any religion doesn't want to support 0.99
00:26:10.500 the gay population pre any kind of real science and it's simple two gay people are not having
00:26:19.220 babies yeah i mean very simple yeah i mean and i and i've i've made that point especially with a 0.82
00:26:25.880 lot of the you know the the the condemnation of homosexuality in the um the hebrew scriptures
00:26:32.360 i mean you've got a small struggling nation that's that's surrounded by larger dominant empires
00:26:39.420 they're trying to survive they want to thrive allowing people to enter not marry you know and 0.96
00:26:45.780 and have children that's that's a threat to the society right yeah that that context in which 1.00
00:26:52.120 people are looking at that right right um and you know and i think that's the other thing 0.74
00:26:57.100 prior to like the 19th century there there wasn't people knew that some people engaged in same sex
00:27:04.740 same-sex activity. That's not a new thing. But the whole idea of sexual orientation, that people
00:27:10.680 are naturally by nature attracted to who they are, for most of human history, that hasn't existed.
00:27:18.960 So you also have to look at the whole Bible, which is a number of different books and things
00:27:24.120 written at different times. But all of the authors of all the books of the Bible are assuming that
00:27:30.580 all human beings are naturally heterosexual from their perspective. So from their perspective,
00:27:37.680 anyone who engages in same-sex activity is deliberately and intentionally going against 0.55
00:27:43.920 their nature. And so if you believe that, it would make sense to question, why would you do that?
00:27:49.440 What kind of evil forces are making you do that? When you acknowledge, and not every church still
00:27:55.960 does, but I think the vast majority of us accept science and understand that there are, there's a
00:28:01.660 portion of the human population that always has been and always will be, you know, oriented towards
00:28:07.960 members of the same sex. When you accept that that's part of who they are, then it changes the 0.88
00:28:13.120 conversation. Because now we have to have conversations about, well, what's, we can talk
00:28:18.780 about what's ethical in terms of how I live out my sexuality. But what we can't say anymore is
00:28:26.280 my sexuality in and of itself is sinful and wrong because it is just what it is. And I don't think
00:28:33.540 the Bible's dealing with that. When people talk about what does the Bible say about homosexuality,
00:28:39.260 I always want to say, well, nothing. It talks about homosexual activity, but in specific context
00:28:45.360 and with an understanding of it
00:28:47.200 that's very different from what we have.
00:28:49.580 But again, people want simple black and white animals.
00:28:53.020 Simple, right.
00:28:54.060 And I mean, and a lot of this stems from the whole,
00:28:58.060 were you born that way, right?
00:29:00.000 And a lot of people will ask that question,
00:29:02.060 will bring up that question.
00:29:03.160 And the funny part is I won't answer it.
00:29:06.320 No.
00:29:06.660 Or I'll say the opposite.
00:29:08.040 I'll be like, nah, I decided last Thursday.
00:29:10.700 Because the question assumes
00:29:14.640 wrongdoing if if i've chosen it it's unacceptable if i was born that way and got
00:29:22.800 oh sorry is that all right only you're muted on my end it's not showing it muted here that's weird
00:29:32.320 so we're back sorry about that hiccup but we both agree it might be satan uh or
00:29:41.280 Alanis Morissette because we made the ironic joke. One of the two. We were getting to the
00:29:47.520 heart of something. And Alanis jumped right in. But I think all the things you were talking about,
00:29:56.680 like speaking about context and speaking about, we were talking about when I would never sort of
00:30:01.960 answer whether, you know, do I think it's a choice or not? Because I think it's ridiculous. It's 0.73
00:30:06.540 presupposing a negative action that I just refuse to, again, my answer usually is last Thursday
00:30:12.600 when they asked me, you know, when, if I chose being gay, I'm like, well, I have better hair
00:30:19.140 gay. So yeah. Why would you not choose it? Yeah. But I think it's very interesting too, 0.65
00:30:26.820 because a lot of people, so I wear a, I don't know if you notice, I wear a St. Christopher.
00:30:31.100 I wonder what that one actually. I like the hypocrisy of St. Christopher.
00:30:34.600 because he was like kicked out let back like he was he was in doubt let back in and the
00:30:42.920 papal infallibility act it is like somebody had to be wrong and i just enjoy it um and i was also
00:30:49.200 i surf so i was gifted it you every surfer has a anyways but i i like it a lot of people
00:30:56.080 ask what my medallions are and i wear them religiously there's some irony um
00:31:01.520 Alanis if you're listening obviously careful um but people will say do you worry or do you think
00:31:14.120 about when you die this is the big put I think a lot do you worry about when you die and and I very
00:31:20.780 honestly say they're like what do you think I said I don't think about I have zero thoughts
00:31:26.700 and it's not in a you know demeaning people who think about the afterlife or anything in any kind
00:31:33.280 of way other than the fact it never crosses my mind because I feel like there's two possibilities
00:31:37.460 here yeah one nothing nothing or two something pretty cool and I think I've been a good enough
00:31:46.540 person in this life to rate the cool factor of going somewhere cool and if I haven't walking
00:31:55.580 the way I've walked I'm pretty sure it's not the cool place I want to be anyways yeah I mean when
00:32:00.940 I when you when you pay attention to a lot of the people that are the most worried about the
00:32:06.640 afterlife and who's going there and and certain about what it is and who gets in who doesn't I
00:32:12.520 always think I don't want to spend eternity with you anyway right like it's you're not your
00:32:18.260 destination isn't where I want to be anyway um I I mean and I think that's this is a big shift
00:32:24.360 I think, in religion, for me anyways, is at least within Christianity, recognizing that
00:32:33.920 Jesus spent way more time talking about this life and how we are to live here and now. And
00:32:41.000 when he talked about the kingdom of God, right, or the kingdom of heaven, he was talking about
00:32:46.460 not us getting there but how does it get here through us um and and that that was the bigger
00:32:53.800 that was the bigger issue and and you know that's i don't know what the afterlife is you know i i
00:33:01.500 believe that there is something beyond this i believe that that that love doesn't end i believe
00:33:07.200 that what's created in love uh survives death i think that's what the whole resurrection is all
00:33:12.920 about for me um and so i do believe in something but i don't know what the details are and i'm not
00:33:18.520 all that concerned about it because that's that's out of my hands anyway um you know i don't know
00:33:23.120 what the party will look like and i'm not in charge of the guest list um you know from my
00:33:28.060 perspective i am in charge of getting invitations out what a lovely way there's me wanting to be
00:33:35.160 like i got the guest list i'm in charge i'll make sure you're on the list joe so my mom says
00:33:42.020 my mom knows my uncle and i was working on your behalf so we're on the atheist side my mom's like
00:33:49.780 don't worry i'll take care of it when i get there just just you know me yeah yeah just give my name
00:33:57.460 at the door and i think i think it's so important and i think that's what the the the fire and
00:34:07.540 brimstone of hell and the eternal happiness. That's probably the part I don't like the most
00:34:13.880 about Christianity because other, I don't know much about Islam in that sense. I know Judaism
00:34:19.920 doesn't really spend any time talking about the afterlife, but that's the part that always
00:34:25.380 bothered me for two reasons. Number one, don't threaten me. But because that's what that is.
00:34:32.660 And number two, when you lead somebody to do what is right out of fear of punishment, are they ever doing what's right anyways?
00:34:43.320 Yeah. I mean, I say, like, for me, the heart of the relationship that I think, you know, God, what I call God wants with us is one of love.
00:34:54.040 And, you know, if I put a gun to your head and say, tell me you love me, you're probably going to do it, but you're doing it out of fear.
00:35:00.640 And that's not going to establish the relationship. And that's abusive and it's manipulative. And so, you know, to me, the whole doing anything out of fear of punishment has never been, for me, the heart of what my faith should be.
00:35:16.540 And it's not about how I preach. And it's not about how I engage others in conversation around Christianity or faith. Because, because to me, that's, that's a betrayal of what I think God actually is.
00:35:29.920 um um fear and and you know and yeah it's sort of like i we're in lent right now you know we
00:35:37.700 just entered the season and and so the the focus often becomes around sin right and and and um
00:35:44.000 our our individual sin our collective sin how that separates us from god and i'm happy to talk
00:35:49.880 about sin but i think of sin more as a disease that god wants to heal as opposed to a crime
00:35:56.860 that God wants to punish. And I think, I think there's way more, even in the gospel, that's how
00:36:04.080 I see Jesus addressing sin, right? It's, it's not, it's, it's, you know, what, what are we doing
00:36:10.600 intentionally or unintentionally that gets in the way of us living abundantly and, and freely and
00:36:18.140 lovingly. And we should address that, but it's, it's like a, it's like an illness that we're not
00:36:23.320 responsible for but it's affecting us and the whole idea is not to blame us for that but but
00:36:28.720 find out what's wrong and what do we need to heal that that's so lovely that is that is a beautiful
00:36:35.980 description of what i wish uh so many people would be why do you think that is not at the forefront
00:36:43.060 why do you think the matt walsh is and the marjorie taylor heaven help me or lauren
00:36:49.420 Why do you think these people, and you originally said scapegoats, right? And we talked about simplicity of messaging. So if you have simplicity of messaging and key people to blame, and everything's going crappy because of them, them, them, do you think it's just a politicization tool?
00:37:09.280 or do you think that maybe religion itself is politics in and of itself yes you know what i
00:37:20.320 mean i don't because a lot of people say oh well it's the way politicians manipulate religion i'm
00:37:24.880 like i've seen religion itself yeah yeah a lot of roads i i wouldn't want it to to run um but
00:37:31.980 why do you think people why do you think people are drawn to the fire and the brimstone for lack
00:37:38.540 of a better synopsis? Well, I mean, we tend to be drawn to the fire and the brimstone for other
00:37:44.780 people, not for ourselves, right? Sure, of course. It's that typical, I want mercy and forgiveness
00:37:53.060 for myself, and I want justice and punishment for you, right? And I think a lot of it, it does have
00:37:59.760 to do with control, and that's where the politics comes up, right? And I don't just mean politics as
00:38:05.500 politicians but as you said religion itself is is very political um and it's about if i know
00:38:13.020 if i can point to who i know is wrong and it's it's the whole high school you know uh
00:38:19.500 clique thing right if i can if i know who the outsiders are then maybe then i'm maybe
00:38:23.980 then i'm an insider right um if i can condemn or judge others um then then the spotlight isn't on
00:38:32.060 me um so i think part of it is is an attempt to control um i think that there are a lot of
00:38:39.580 politicians do use christianity um in a way that i i don't you know i don't think they really have
00:38:46.860 any actual interest in what christianity actually teaches but they know that it has a lot of cultural
00:38:53.980 power um and there's a lot of votes there in that evangelical world and so i think there is a
00:39:00.460 manipulation of it but that happens within religion itself too right um and yeah i think
00:39:07.100 i think it is fear it it really is it's fear of um
00:39:15.900 people don't want to have faith they want to know and so um if we can draw the lines yeah
00:39:23.340 and make it clear then i know and then i'm and then i'm safe there it is people don't
00:39:29.500 want to have faith they want to know yeah so if somebody says with all of the certainty i know
00:39:35.260 and don't worry you're on the in then people will back that till their dying day which goes back to
00:39:43.660 unfortunately one of my favorite uh political philosophers uh thomas hobbs who said people
00:39:49.180 will give up everything if you promise them safety and security yes whatever liberty they think they
00:39:55.820 have that is important they will give it up if you promise if you assure them a level of security and
00:40:04.060 we're not talking of in this life so so they've taken it a step way past thomas hobbs right they've
00:40:09.100 said yeah it's not i don't i'm not just putting a security grade around your house i got you for
00:40:15.820 eternity and it's one of the things that really worries me uh i mean that this gets beyond
00:40:24.620 religion and it's politics but but it's the thing that that has worried me for a long time in in
00:40:29.720 what i see in in happening in the states and what i worry about happening more and more in canada now
00:40:35.080 it's that populism it's that i can um you know i people are willing to give up freedoms rights uh
00:40:44.620 and and not and not their own so much as they're willing to give up their neighbors freedoms and
00:40:49.820 Right. You know, because you can offer me protection, but protection from what?
00:40:54.400 I mean, it's it's like, let me generate. First of all, let me identify what you need to be afraid of.
00:41:00.440 And then I will tell you how I'm going to protect you from it.
00:41:03.280 And so it's the whole like, let me create the devil and the hellfire and brimstone.
00:41:08.980 And then I'll tell you how to go about avoiding it. Right.
00:41:12.300 And that gives me a whole lot of power over you because I've not only created the fear, but I've created the salvation from the fear.
00:41:19.820 and I control both. Wow. That's a good game. Yeah. Somebody created a very good game. What
00:41:26.440 about, and I'm going to come down to back to Twitter in a second. Where do you, I guess,
00:41:31.720 where do you stand or where would the church stand? My mom worked at St. Mike's Hospital
00:41:36.460 for a long time and they do not perform abortions. Right. Where would the Anglican Church or have 1.00
00:41:42.280 they ever made, well, I guess they wouldn't, right? Cause you're saying it's not like Rome
00:41:45.900 All right. Listen, that's the second time, Alanis. And I'm going to listen to you, hon. I'm going to take a moment. I'm going to reflect on some of the things I've said. I am going to thank Reverend Daniel for coming on and speaking with me. And I hope you come on and speak with me some more.
00:42:06.780 I applaud your work on Twitter. Guys, please go follow this gentleman on Twitter. He does an
00:42:13.500 amazing job of keeping the right-wing insanity at bay, and he does it with humor and wit that I
00:42:22.600 aspire to. So thank you so much, sir. Can you tell them where to find you on Twitter?
00:42:30.100 Yeah, at RevDaniel.
00:42:32.660 RevDaniel.
00:42:33.700 Yeah, and I'd love to come back anytime
00:42:36.000 and talk more about Twitter
00:42:37.540 and the things that Alanis wouldn't let us talk about.
00:42:40.200 Say it again.
00:42:41.200 We won't get through this end.
00:42:42.820 Maybe you're supposed to have Alanis on.
00:42:44.500 Maybe that's the problem.
00:42:50.320 I'll make the call.
00:42:51.780 Thank you so much.
00:42:52.960 And thank you guys for listening.
00:42:54.880 Leave your comments and questions below.
00:42:56.680 and I would love to do another session with Reverend Daniel
00:43:00.760 in the coming, hopefully, months.
00:43:03.380 And we'll plan it differently.
00:43:04.840 We'll never mention the name who will not be mentioned.
00:43:07.940 Thank you guys so much.
00:43:09.240 We'll see you tomorrow.
00:43:09.920 Sorry, next Tuesday, same bat time, same bat station. 0.81
00:43:13.960 Dismissed. 0.98