Unlearn16: Class is in Session - October 19, 2021


The One Where I Fix The Educational System

Topics
The One Where I Talk to Rosie O'Donnell The One Where I Talk About TikTok and Save Social Media

Episode Stats


Length

57 minutes

Words per minute

176.25

Word count

10,128

Sentence count

324

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

3

sentences flagged


Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
00:00:00.000 classes in session how you doing welcome to on learn 16 classes in session i love having teachers
00:00:09.040 and and you know uh principals in my podcast i feel like i'm teaching people that are you know
00:00:14.340 just a little bit higher than me i like it uh welcome dr z you are an amazing amazing tiktoker
00:00:21.620 who i saw your your let's say impersonations of the soul of the elementary system so well played
00:00:29.460 out and it made me, and to be honest, I was inundated with your TikToks. Like people just
00:00:34.260 kept sending them to me. So today we're going to get together because let's be honest, we're going
00:00:39.120 to fix the education system. We got 45. Awesome. Let's do it. 45 minutes to fix it. I think that
00:00:46.160 should be enough. And then we'll just send this podcast off to Trudeau to Biden. Yeah. And that
00:00:52.300 should be that problem solved. Yeah. Tomorrow we'll do the Middle East. Okay. Oh, I'd love that.
00:00:57.620 all right if we're gonna solve stuff all right so why don't you tell the people who are listening
00:01:03.860 or watching who you are how you got here yeah so my name is katherine zeissner i'm from london
00:01:10.820 ontario canada i grew up in canada and uh proud uh daughter of robert and sharon zeissner
00:01:18.340 i went into education because my parents really wanted me to they felt at a young age
00:01:24.820 man you're going to be a teacher it's a great life my dad was a high school teacher for a long time
00:01:29.140 before moving into higher ed and my mom taught esl um went to the university of maine got my
00:01:35.620 teacher education came back to canada and worked for many years in a variety of classrooms in
00:01:41.540 canada we say elementary meaning k through eight here where i am sitting currently i'm currently
00:01:47.380 sitting in Spokane, Washington, on the grounds of the beautiful Gonzaga University. And I was
00:01:58.060 teaching for a long time, grade seven. I was a spec ed teacher. I actually worked for the
00:02:03.300 Ministry of Education. I was seconded to the Amethyst School to work with their students with
00:02:08.280 ADHD and diverse learners. I loved it. I highly recommend an opportunity for anybody because
00:02:13.640 you take those experiences and bring them back to your school. Yeah, for sure. And then had an
00:02:19.100 opportunity to move into administration as a vice principal. And then I'm from the Thames Valley
00:02:24.580 District School Board, and they had this wonderful position called learning supervisor. And in
00:02:29.720 particular, in their district office, someone who supported all the professional development
00:02:34.740 for the whole district. And I got to do that for three years, loved it, really learned about
00:02:39.820 appreciating all those who work in education, not just teachers, but providing professional
00:02:45.940 development for our paraprofessionals, our EAs, our secretaries, our custodians.
00:02:51.100 Then got a chance to be an administrator at, I think, four different schools.
00:02:55.500 And throughout that time, I got my doctorate of education from Western University in London.
00:03:01.680 Yeah, me too.
00:03:03.940 really diving into adversity, educational leadership, adversity, and the tough things
00:03:09.760 that schools and leaders have to overcome. Certainly chronic adversity and crisis adversity.
00:03:17.080 And then more importantly, what are the resiliency strategies that great leaders use to get through
00:03:22.640 those very difficult, challenging times, death of a student, financial crisis, community upheaval.
00:03:28.960 right and that allowed me for western to come and give me a little tap and say would you like to come
00:03:34.860 and adjunct for us at night working with our uh b ed students and i jumped up something i always
00:03:41.540 wanted to do and so i was a principal during the day and then tuesday thursday nights would drive
00:03:46.220 down to western for um 800 undergrads oh geez all k through 12 um focusing on classroom management
00:03:56.820 But then we all realized we hate that term because you don't manage really being supportive.
00:04:04.620 So the second year I taught it, we changed it to creating positive learning environments.
00:04:08.640 And I got to do it for a full year and both, of course, incredible opportunities.
00:04:13.100 And that got me excited to want to teach in higher ed full time.
00:04:17.520 And Gonzaga was a fantastic opportunity.
00:04:20.500 So now for the last three years, I've been sitting here on their campus, teaching in their school of ed,
00:04:25.240 working with their master's in the graduate programs, making principles now and helping
00:04:32.980 people get their doctorate and really changing education. But the reason why I wanted to meet
00:04:37.400 with you, Joanne, is I think you and I are coming at this from the exact same perspective,
00:04:43.080 which is let's tell the truth. Let's shine a spotlight on stuff that's the truth.
00:04:49.480 Let's see who we can help influence and show the influence that educators can have.
00:04:54.340 let's compare districts and schools and programs and countries and let's have some uncomfortable
00:05:01.900 conversations i'm ready so yeah when you called me and i watch your videos all the time i'm like
00:05:06.840 i love it she's she's making me feel uncomfortable because she's talking about things that need to be
00:05:13.080 talked about absolutely and um i just know that you and i together could really help
00:05:20.280 people to see how they can help change education for the better, which in fact, then changes our
00:05:26.500 countries. Absolutely. A hundred percent. You said about 17 things in that introduction,
00:05:31.260 and now we're going to need to break this up into 17 separate podcasts. It's like, I'm old,
00:05:36.560 I'm old. I should have been taking notes because at the end of the day, you tapped into,
00:05:44.060 and this might need to be two parts i mean let's maybe fixing education in 45 minutes was a high
00:05:51.020 bar maybe an hour and a half maybe okay uh let's let's start one place because so so your education
00:06:00.120 and all of your experience and i think i haven't done a lot on curriculum development and i know
00:06:05.760 you're in the states now but the way curriculum development works and i don't you can talk if you
00:06:10.380 know about the States. I'll talk about it in Canada. So individual provinces get to develop
00:06:15.500 the curriculum and the courses that are available to students. So they get to say what you're taking,
00:06:21.620 what you have to take, what you can choose to take. And then they develop a curriculum,
00:06:26.880 which nobody wants to look at those documents because they give everybody a headache. But then
00:06:30.180 they develop a curriculum guideline about what you're supposed to teach. And I talk about this
00:06:35.920 all the time because nobody speaks to this what insane power that is for our government to have
00:06:43.520 and i say to my students it's not so much about what they're telling us to teach because i i don't
00:06:49.200 think the government's there rubbing their hands together except for maybe jason kenny i'm not
00:06:52.720 going to talk about that rubbing their hands together let's let's mess up students i'm more
00:06:57.280 concerned with what they haven't included correct so i'm constantly like my courses do i cover the
00:07:05.040 curriculum of course but and again please don't go look at curriculum but i could do the curriculum
00:07:11.280 in a week because it doesn't say how long it doesn't say how in depth it doesn't say anything
00:07:16.960 so i go and most teachers go way past that but what they don't talk about or what they don't put
00:07:22.880 in a course uh for example and then maybe you can give us some some examples from where you're from
00:07:27.360 up until about six years ago we didn't talk about indigenous issues right residential schools were
00:07:32.080 like a little byline at the side of the book that said oh we had residential schools we helped them
00:07:37.600 assimilate now i've been teaching about residential schools forever but that six seven maybe seven
00:07:45.600 years ago that is brand new that nobody my age knew about that so why is that why is that one
00:07:56.240 of the many many many topics ideas themes critical knowledge that's been lacking why well it's it's
00:08:04.340 simple it's like the government doesn't want to have a hard conversation either because as soon
00:08:09.900 as they allow as soon as they mandate that but i'll go you one step further the people that are
00:08:14.580 in the government in charge of curriculum don't know either there you go the most part there they
00:08:21.700 look like me you know for the most part were white christian background relatively affluent
00:08:29.460 they weren't taught it either and they think well the civil war and the war of 1812 and these are
00:08:34.260 the real things of our history because that's what i learned so some of it's not i think some
00:08:39.380 of it could be purposeful but i think the worst kind of of faulty education doesn't come from
00:08:46.820 purposeful anger or malicious intent it comes from flat ignorance right and we give so much
00:08:53.460 power to our government right they don't have the right people in the room exactly it's this idea
00:08:59.620 it's like this idea of sameness or let's let's let's have all my friends sit around and talk
00:09:05.460 it and again you and i continue to talk about what's what's uncomfortable is getting people
00:09:10.900 who are not like you in the same room to share their experiences perspectives ideas
00:09:15.620 and Abraham Lincoln's the only guy that I've ever known that did that his entire life was
00:09:21.020 I don't like that guy I need to get to know him better and he purposely surrounded himself with
00:09:25.340 people who had completely different ideas than him so that he did enrich the world but you do
00:09:31.040 not hear about that very often even in schools when you have committees it's the same people
00:09:36.300 it's the same people who want to be leaders and in fact you need to be going to the quiet people
00:09:40.960 You need to be going to those people, the green thinkers, the people who, you know, the green, gold, blue, and orange.
00:09:47.640 You need everybody's perspective and students and parents.
00:09:51.960 It's the fact that we don't get the right people in the room.
00:09:57.460 And so I think that problem is twofold.
00:10:01.940 Number one, I think a lot of people don't think that they need them.
00:10:06.740 Why?
00:10:08.220 You know, and I talk a lot about Indigenous issues. 0.87
00:10:10.220 I'm not Indigenous. I don't, I'm sure, look, there's lots of people like, I did genealogy.com. I am one, whatever. Look, I have no background, no familial connection, but I speak about it all the time. And the more that I speak about it, the more that I realize I need those people. I got to stop speaking.
00:10:31.320 So what I've learned recently, very recently, actually, is what it means to be an actual ally, as opposed to because I love to talk. And I love to talk when people are being morons. I love to put them in their place. But what a real ally means is when you have space, which is why I want to do this. And I want to have as much diversity as I possibly can. 0.99
00:10:54.960 When you have space or when you have a voice, do you clear space for the people that would
00:11:00.800 be quiet or silenced otherwise, right?
00:11:04.680 I want to do a huge thing on transgendered athletes. 1.00
00:11:08.580 That's not my space. 1.00
00:11:10.580 It's not my space, but I want to have, so I got to find the right people in order to
00:11:14.940 bring them and give them that ability and so that we can have that dialogue, right?
00:11:19.580 But that's scary to a lot of people.
00:11:21.340 Sure.
00:11:21.860 Why do you think?
00:11:22.560 Because you're letting control go.
00:11:24.960 I'm letting control go. I can't control what they're going to say and do. And it's very hard for people, leaders, anybody to allow for that loss of control. And it shouldn't be about power and control. But that's how you perceive it. As opposed to, I don't need to teach this. I just need to facilitate the learning of this. And I'm going to facilitate the learning of this situation by having the right people in the room.
00:11:51.220 and there's the right leader i know we're going to talk about politics and a whole other thing
00:11:56.220 right because there's the actual leader a leader doesn't stand up and just tell you what to do
00:12:01.180 a leader has listened a leader has made space a leader has you know uh i used to ask my students
00:12:07.840 all the time we talk about democracy and we talk about who gets to vote and a lot of my 17 year
00:12:12.780 olds are real mad that they don't get to vote they're like joanna i know so much more than my
00:12:17.760 mom does. You know, she doesn't even know who's leads the green
00:12:20.100 party or they call it out all the time. And I say, Yeah, it's
00:12:25.620 frustrating. It's frustrating when you're the one that's
00:12:28.080 getting educated. But I joke with them. I say, Listen, if you
00:12:31.480 want to vote, though, you get all the big person responsibilities
00:12:34.740 too. So if you do something wrong, you don't get young jail,
00:12:39.000 you get big boy jail.
00:12:40.140 That's right.
00:12:41.040 Joe, you're paying taxes, and you pay taxes and you if there's
00:12:45.120 conscription off you go like you get the whole body right right um but how do you think so then
00:12:52.160 we're going to start throwing out words like affirmative action yes right which everybody
00:12:56.700 thinks is a four-letter word how do you feel about affirmative action well here in america there's
00:13:02.260 they've had so many initiatives same thing no child left behind oh every every student success
00:13:08.100 act it's it's interesting it's the curriculum i often joanna send people to the ontario ministry
00:13:16.820 of education website to at least look at the documents to understand how equity can be given
00:13:27.540 for schools because every classroom has access to the same guides right in america they have
00:13:35.700 something called common core which is a very small document really about math and and reading etc
00:13:42.820 okay but their curriculum comes from resources they buy so we as a school say we're going to buy
00:13:51.780 this grade 7 textbook right that's our history curriculum a couple problems i have with that
00:13:59.060 somebody's making a lot one question so that depends on the school yes so not even there's
00:14:04.500 not even like a state board or a or a county board so every single school buys a book yep
00:14:13.140 and that's their how it's worse it's worse every classroom so you and i are both teaching grade
00:14:21.940 seven and we don't turn along and we're not collaborative and i really like this book i
00:14:26.580 buy it and teach it and you buy this one and teach it so let's just talk about let's unpack that for
00:14:32.180 a second we have a set of twins i have the one twin and you have the other twin they're getting
00:14:37.380 a completely different grade seven experience because what i would like to teach and what i
00:14:44.420 bought and use is what i'm doing and what you like and want to teach is what you use
00:14:51.540 so i i say this to people all the time the best part about ontario is if you are someone who has
00:14:57.940 to move, and you're living in Sudbury, Ontario, and you've got kids in the fifth grade, and they
00:15:03.780 move to London, Ontario, same experience. The curriculum is the same. The information is the
00:15:10.580 same. The expectations are the same. How it's taught is where the creativity and the passion
00:15:16.820 of the teacher comes from. So guess what teachers spend over 50% of their time doing here?
00:15:23.140 picking a book researching stuff to buy to use as opposed to i say go to the ontario curriculum
00:15:30.580 print the grade five social studies document and there's some topics and ideas and vocabulary
00:15:38.260 and assessments you can use and share it with your colleagues yeah and then go and find some
00:15:43.380 small little things which support those ideas you know it's completely backwards it's hilarious
00:15:50.260 that that's the way i had no idea because i have just started talking about i i would love to
00:15:55.860 national forget provincialize the curriculum i want to nationalize a curriculum and even better
00:16:02.980 i'm going to go one step further i want to shove it into our constitution yeah i want to say that
00:16:08.340 you need representation from all provinces diversity and equity abounds you create a
00:16:14.820 curriculum that that does the best it possibly can at encapsulating everything so no premier
00:16:21.700 can step in and decide by the way like doug ford has just decided in ontario we want to go back to
00:16:27.300 1998 curriculum for health health studies for the love of god because it's we're too uncomfortable
00:16:32.900 to talk about the other stuff so nobody can do that that's what i'm like that's what i want i
00:16:37.860 don't and and the united states has taken it the other of course they have of course they have but
00:16:44.660 but they have taken it the other way.
00:16:47.380 Well, it's that sense, again,
00:16:49.420 it's what I have experienced here is people's sense
00:16:54.000 of wanting control and power and independence.
00:16:57.080 Yeah.
00:16:57.920 That's great, that's great.
00:16:59.020 But is that fair to your students?
00:17:01.220 Yeah, no.
00:17:02.540 In Ontario, here's the documents,
00:17:05.200 and where your creativity and independence
00:17:06.900 and power and control comes from is,
00:17:08.620 are you someone who likes to do
00:17:11.340 a different type of assessment?
00:17:12.580 Are you someone who likes to integrate subjects together?
00:17:15.680 Here they can't do that because we're spending $75 on each textbook
00:17:20.560 for that grade seven history program.
00:17:22.840 I'm expecting you to do page one to 130 plus the unit tests,
00:17:26.940 and I need it done in six months, and you have to show it to me.
00:17:31.080 And so the tears, the frustration, the anger that I get from teachers
00:17:37.600 about uh someone died in my class and i'm still expected to do page 79 today yeah right um i have
00:17:45.780 six kids who just came from guatemala who don't speak english but they're expected to do page 76
00:17:51.360 today right um this flexibility there's no room and so it breaks my heart because the best part
00:18:00.380 about being a teacher is an aha moment is a teachable moment is something happens socially
00:18:06.460 and we're spending the whole week on it yeah absolutely and i will integrate it and they
00:18:11.860 still will get the history curriculum but they're going to get it through uh conversation and through
00:18:17.720 some drama and maybe through some videos and maybe through um some mind maps but it's you're
00:18:24.420 also expecting that everybody can read page 76 yeah absolutely and so that's that's some i i am
00:18:31.280 very proud of the Ontario Ministry of Education's website and the resources available. It's also
00:18:38.380 transparent, Joanna. So I'm a mom and I want to know what my kid's getting. I could download the
00:18:43.400 grade seven history curriculum. Yeah. Here, nobody knows what it is. There's some standards
00:18:49.860 and there's some expectations, but not as thorough as ours. Who comes up with the core that you said?
00:18:56.780 the government the federal government it's like a huge mandate across america okay and what's in
00:19:06.960 that then you said math and science yeah math and reading it's very fair math and english very
00:19:13.040 basic expectations for certain ages and grades great start but again alabama says don't tell us
00:19:23.960 what our grade five should be doing and alaska says don't you tell us that we should be doing
00:19:29.820 what alabama's grade five students are doing oh and so the number one thing that i've noticed and
00:19:36.920 i'm trying so hard to get people to just at least think about is let's just think about the kids
00:19:42.660 yeah a grade five kid sitting in alabama who's what 11 is very similar to the grade five kids
00:19:50.620 sitting in in in Alaska who's also 11. Sure they have different hobbies and experiences but they're
00:19:56.380 still an 11 year old kid. Absolutely. And so it's I just I I often will say tell me how this is right
00:20:04.440 for kids. Right. And I'm just proud of the equity access that Ontario allows. Right right. And that
00:20:13.760 if you are someone who moves you're going to get the same stuff. Maybe not in the same way
00:20:19.780 but the other thing here is you don't have to in ontario if a child walks into your school and
00:20:26.100 they're 11 we place them by age not by parent suggestion right here you walk into a school
00:20:34.100 and your parent says well they were in grade four in alabama i'd like them in grade four here
00:20:39.940 and you're like but they're 11 yep but i want them in grade four
00:20:43.140 and this idea of red shirting they hold their kid back for a year so they're taller stronger
00:20:51.620 bigger more mature than some of the other kids don't get me wrong great idea it's awesome
00:20:57.780 but is that what's right for the child in some cases yes keeping some kids back and you know
00:21:04.760 we don't really keep kids back in ontario because we often look at the reasons why right there's a
00:21:11.160 I want to talk about that. I want to talk about that with you specifically because the notion of failing, the notion of, and when we talk about it from an elementary, so a K through eight versus a high school experience, I don't know if we're going to come on the same page here or not because I've never taught elementary.
00:21:34.200 so I've taught as young as grade six. Right. Um, but even if you think about child development,
00:21:39.200 right. Even if you think about like my friend's kid learned to speak way late, way late, very
00:21:44.960 near late. Right. And she was freaking out and whatever. And he might be slower on the take.
00:21:51.660 And you know what? Holding him back might make sense for him. Yet it's like, we don't hold,
00:21:57.960 we don't hold anybody back. Why it's going to break them. Is it going to break them? Or is our
00:22:02.980 perception and our social damnation of it going to break them rather than just, you know, because
00:22:10.040 there's lots of kids who just don't get math yet, who just who can't, maybe their fine motor skills
00:22:15.440 aren't up to par yet. And what we're going to do is we're going to keep pushing them and pushing
00:22:18.940 them through. And for me, that's an economic decision. That is not what's good for my kid
00:22:25.140 decision, right? You've answered your own question. The answer is it depends. It depends on the child.
00:22:31.700 a hundred percent because we have had kids with medical serious chronic illness who have not
00:22:38.480 been to school for a year there it is um often that the conversation is around social that
00:22:46.480 holding someone back or failing them or retain the word is retaining them in elementary
00:22:52.040 is that it's going to hurt them socially right and my answer to that is it depends
00:22:58.440 because there's some kids whose maturity level truly is that of younger people they have their
00:23:07.740 friends are younger people their size is similar to others so i have never been part of retaining
00:23:15.140 anyone that's been like that's gone through but i have been part of the conversations in ontario
00:23:21.780 we sit around and it's a huge group of people it's the parents it's an advocate it's a social
00:23:27.220 worker it's a psychologist it's the administration it's teachers and it is about what's best for the
00:23:33.380 child um high school is different yeah totally different yeah because if you didn't do the work
00:23:40.340 if you're unable to do the work if you have not done the assessments and passed them
00:23:49.540 then you're not going to then it's not that you failed you don't get that credit
00:23:53.060 and you need your credits to leave high school so it's about you didn't obtain the credit
00:23:57.220 so elementary so in america one of the things that that i do appreciate is they have elementary
00:24:04.320 middle and high so they have these sort of k to five schools these six seven and eight schools
00:24:10.160 and then the nine to twelve schools and different versions of that some of them are k to three some
00:24:15.300 of them are seven eight nine right so socially it they're packed together and not everybody knows
00:24:22.580 what's going on in everybody else's life whereas in ontario often we stay at the same school for
00:24:27.700 a long period of time and everybody knows your business so if you retain somebody everybody
00:24:33.700 knows well you used to be in my class and now you're not yeah yeah yeah preserving preserving
00:24:40.580 the the the respect for that child and that family and their business is a little harder right
00:24:47.460 Right. Yeah, that is different math. I didn't get math till I was in grade 11. I didn't figure it
00:24:53.260 out till I was in grade 11. And I, and I did not get my grade nine math credit. And I pretty well,
00:24:59.560 I did not do well in grade seven. I show people my report card all the time. All my marks were
00:25:03.960 below. But if they had kept me back, it would have devastated me personally. Right. Just the
00:25:09.880 embarrassment, the shame to my family. And I was also this tall and this big in grade seven.
00:25:17.460 like it wasn't like i fit in with the grade sixes how tall are you oh five ten oh okay
00:25:24.820 yeah it's real i was a tall kid tall skinny awkward kid um it would have hurt me socially
00:25:31.220 so i would have hoped that there would have you know obviously we just kept on kept me going and
00:25:34.340 eventually my brain popped in the 11th grade but i didn't know i had add either there you go it
00:25:40.100 wasn't talked about then none of us did right none of us knew any of that none of and and i often
00:25:46.660 but i often think it is about how we frame it and how we push it because i'll tell you what every
00:25:54.980 kid in my school anyways a lot of kids will talk about their ieps openly yes you know it's all
00:26:00.900 confidential i think it's so the gut the guidance office gives you this folder of kids and all their
00:26:05.540 ieps and they're like don't show any kids i'm like you're joking they walk into my classroom
00:26:10.020 me go Joanna my IEP says you know they're they're I mean proud is a weird word but they're comfortable
00:26:16.660 with it there is just who I am it's called self-advocating and I talk about this all the
00:26:23.460 time on my lives and in my videos the number one thing you want as a parent is your kid to self
00:26:28.240 advocate for their needs absolutely you can feel that if they're stuck on the side of the road
00:26:33.860 they can do something about it if they're at school and they didn't get the technology they
00:26:37.760 needed to write the test, they can ask for it. And as parents, that's the skill that you need
00:26:43.700 to be developing in your child, no matter the age, no matter the situation is that they can talk to
00:26:49.420 adults and advocate for their needs. Absolutely. Whether I need to go to the bathroom and get a
00:26:53.920 drink of water. Yeah, no, for sure. When I see parents talking for their child drives me nuts.
00:27:01.420 and as a principal they used to sit in my office and the parent would go he's bullied
00:27:07.500 oh and i would turn to the child go tell me what's happening he says just a second i'm
00:27:11.580 just going to ask your child for some specifics tell me about when this happened in the morning
00:27:17.660 the damage that that does to people you see it as adults and so i love it when kids walk in and say
00:27:29.020 my iep says that i get headphones and i get technology and i get extra time and
00:27:33.020 you know you have to do an oral test with me awesome buddy let's do it yeah confidence success
00:27:38.940 knowing their needs understanding the process that got them to be successful i love that there should
00:27:46.140 not be any shame or embarrassment about an iep remember an iep can be because you have a hearing
00:27:51.500 disability or have to be visual impairment and and i honestly believe that if we all i think
00:27:58.060 we're about the same age if we were tested when we were kids if every kid tested we would all have
00:28:03.180 one i should have been on an iep every student would have i think i might have been dyslexic
00:28:10.540 oh my dad and i talk about that all the time i honestly believe so because i hated reading as a
00:28:15.740 kid and even as a teacher like as i became a teacher kids would say joanna can you spell
00:28:21.900 that word and i'd hate it my first few years i'd start to sweat i'd have to look at the word and
00:28:26.300 And I swear to God, I would have to focus all my attention on looking at that word and spelling it out to that student.
00:28:34.460 And eventually I got better.
00:28:36.080 I'm like, did I just fix or help, you know, correct a thing I didn't even know I had?
00:28:44.280 It obviously wasn't comparing.
00:28:46.140 Ours is dysgraphia, the flipping of numbers.
00:28:49.740 Oh, wow.
00:28:50.360 And not just left and right, but up and down.
00:28:53.400 In the way, math must have been impossible.
00:28:55.300 It was impossible. I can remember when we used to do those bubble tests growing up a couple times a year, several days of stuff. They never explained what it was like we do with EQAO now. And there was a spelling aspect. It's going to be 50 words. And the very first word was done.
00:29:15.080 right i couldn't spell done for whatever reason and i didn't put any other words down
00:29:23.220 and i was going done and i always rhymed done son bun and i couldn't get there zero out of 50
00:29:31.260 zero out of 50 and to this day d-o-n-e i know what it is now but i'm not stupid right i gotta
00:29:39.660 and i'm not saying because i have a doctorate of educational leadership that i'm brilliant
00:29:43.200 because that's not what i am what i have done in my life is taken opportunities so i've taken the
00:29:50.320 opportunity to get a tutor i've taken the opportunity to go and see a professor after a
00:29:55.520 test i've taken the opportunity to not go out on the weekend and to do some extra work i've taken
00:30:00.800 the opportunity to take an extra year to get my studies there it is no shame in that no and you
00:30:08.720 And you know what? And that's to me. So like I work at an academic school. So so it's a small private school and we offer academic courses.
00:30:17.860 So for those who are from the states, I don't know how it works down there, but you need to take certain courses to go to university stream, college stream or workplace.
00:30:24.500 We don't offer we have some university college courses that are both, but we don't offer the other courses because we're a small school and predominantly kids are going to university from our school, which is fine.
00:30:35.660 we spend a lot of time talking about accommodation versus modification, right? And I've very much
00:30:44.080 said, I am all for accommodation. I hate modification. And I'm very clear about this
00:30:51.720 because, so just to explain it a little bit, let's say you brought up oral testing, right?
00:30:58.660 Let's say a kid to write out a test, he or she reads my test, but writing it out takes forever,
00:31:04.200 or they're missing a connectivity point there and they can't get the words on paper and they fail
00:31:09.760 the test. But if I were to ask them in person, they could go for about 30 minutes on a five mark
00:31:16.040 question because that's how much they have in their head. That's an accommodation. And I'm good
00:31:21.780 with that. I'm good with making every single accommodation I can make to ensure that I am
00:31:26.400 getting the intelligence and the work and the thought process out of my student. But an
00:31:32.940 accommodation would be oh it takes you a long time to do the test forget it you
00:31:37.920 know what I'm just gonna give you half the questions no for me I don't see that
00:31:44.400 as educating right because that kid can still do that full test and that's the
00:31:49.460 curriculum that's the expectation I think when we undervalue expectations
00:31:55.380 when we minimize expectations in order by the way to allow that kid to pass
00:31:59.880 which is in essence what we're doing what what kind of education are they getting
00:32:04.960 and then what am i preparing them for you know they don't have that kind of stuff here with
00:32:11.880 i do appreciate the difference between accommodation and modification and i always
00:32:16.580 say to people can the child access the grade level curriculum can the child do exactly what's
00:32:24.400 expected of a grade seven history student right yes or no no then they need a modification then
00:32:29.800 should be accessing the grade six curriculum or the grade five curriculum can't that's modifying
00:32:36.040 you're modifying the curriculum expectations to a different grade and it could be up in some cases
00:32:41.480 too we've got some students who are unbelievably gifted who need to access higher grade accommodation
00:32:47.160 is what are the small things you do in your classroom to make them successful at grade level
00:32:51.000 oh that's interesting do they need preferred seating yeah they need extra time do they need
00:32:56.360 someone describe for them right but they're still able to do the grade level content okay with a few
00:33:03.000 tricks and traits and so that's that's something that's different here they don't necessarily have
00:33:09.000 a huge distinction they have ieps and they have behavior plans and very similar but i'm talking
00:33:14.440 i often will say are they able to do the grade curriculum but again it goes back to our very
00:33:19.080 first piece they don't have a very good curriculum they don't have any yeah so it's very difficult
00:33:26.120 for someone to write and the books that they're using are difficult even for someone who could
00:33:34.420 access the curriculum. Because think about it. What's the one thing as a history teacher that
00:33:39.300 kids need to know to be successful in history? How to look at visual text and how to read a
00:33:45.940 textbook, how to understand what something italics is, what means if a word is bolded.
00:33:51.620 When you look at a photo and there's a little thing underneath it, a citation, what does that
00:33:55.280 mean someone has to teach them how to do that and so if you don't have curriculum that builds upon
00:34:01.820 skills from the grades before by the time they get to you they're going to struggle accessing
00:34:06.380 your curriculum because they don't have the skills need and let's be honest great schools
00:34:11.880 everybody teaches those skills all the time once they get to high school we shouldn't not be
00:34:16.300 teaching reading right it's just a different type of reading how do you read a blog right yeah an
00:34:21.760 online article um but it's that the continuum i just love this word that in ontario the curriculum
00:34:29.020 is a continuum of skills this is what grade ones do and can do and should do and probably could
00:34:36.460 this is what twos do here it's all over the place if i and i visit schools on fridays i go and visit
00:34:41.320 two to three schools right and i often will try and go into the same classroom and it's completely
00:34:46.160 different so i'm sitting here in a grade seven language classroom and they're reading some sort
00:34:50.820 of novel whole class novel you know half those kids can't read it but it's a read aloud so that's
00:34:57.300 lovely appreciate that and then i go to the next room and they're doing a worksheet fill in the
00:35:02.560 blank mad lib kind of stuff they haven't read a book this year they read the they watch cnn 10
00:35:10.080 every morning to access the news and have conversations about it okay that's tough then
00:35:14.920 go to the next one and they're reading graphic texts and making their own and sharing them with
00:35:21.720 younger students so which classroom's right which classroom's best you can't compare you can't
00:35:29.440 compare not even so as an administrator as an administrator it's a very difficult for me to do
00:35:36.420 teacher performance appraisals to know if they're actually providing for their students it just
00:35:42.160 it everything begins with that curriculum piece everything begins with that curriculum piece and
00:35:48.760 i really often say go to the ontario see what they're doing i'm not saying the curriculum is
00:35:54.520 all right because you don't send them for help curriculum no no oh i say that all the time but
00:35:59.600 but that but the essence of what a province-wide curriculum could be along with those guides
00:36:07.420 right the guides for effective instruction the guides for assessment like i talk about all the
00:36:13.060 time diagnostic formative and summative assessment and they go what right right right assessment for
00:36:18.480 and as learning what
00:36:19.640 is that just memorizing no so there's a lot i have a question for you um i work again i work
00:36:31.760 at a private school so we follow the ontario curriculum we follow you know um there's two
00:36:36.060 things I don't like. I wonder if you're going to be on the same page. A, I hate a rubric.
00:36:42.580 In my core, I hate a rubric. And I'm going to explain why, number one. And number two,
00:36:49.860 in Ontario, they have recently, well, maybe in the last five or so years, said,
00:36:55.120 don't take off late marks anymore. Because you're not grading their work, you're grading their...
00:37:00.980 i don't like either of them and here's why so a rubric to me just so everybody at home kind of
00:37:08.000 has a visual a rubric gives a scale of what's required to do well on an assignment all the
00:37:16.420 way down to what's the basic minimum you can do to pass an assignment and if you if it's an essay
00:37:23.800 there's little descriptions in boxes maybe like how many citations you need or what kind of
00:37:29.420 analysis you need or whatever. And you hand this to the student so they know, okay, here are my
00:37:37.460 expectations. Two problems with it. Number one, I hate giving minimum expects. No, I don't want to
00:37:43.880 tell the kid what it is just to pass. That's the worst thing you can do in high school. Oh, look,
00:37:48.360 you can just do this to pass. I'm on side with that. Number two, and this is what I think every
00:37:53.780 teacher, I had a master's professor one time say, you guys can hand in your essays as much as you
00:37:59.140 want. The whole class went, huh? By my master's, right? We went, what is she talking about? She
00:38:05.660 goes, this is my job. I've written six books. Do you know how many times I hand them into the
00:38:12.840 editor and then I get something back or I have a coworker read it or whatever? She goes, that's
00:38:19.380 how you learn. You don't learn by you handing in a paper, me giving you a 72 with comments,
00:38:24.660 because you know what, you're never going to come back to that. So for me, now I work in a
00:38:30.680 private school. So before the public school, teachers get all mad at me. I don't have 35,
00:38:35.420 40 kids in my class. So I tell each one of my students, I'm not giving you a rubric. And I've
00:38:40.020 told the ministry people, I ain't doing it. And here's what, and I tell them what I do. I said,
00:38:45.380 because that's where learning happens. And that's the only place learning happens is giving it a go,
00:38:50.280 maybe not being great, and then giving it another go, and then giving it another go.
00:38:56.840 I have kids hand in stuff, and I'm like, shoot, this would be 100 at this grade level.
00:39:01.420 And I give them about 50 comments, and they take it away. They are like,
00:39:05.560 Joanna, was this not good? I said, listen, if you're writing at a grade 10 level,
00:39:10.100 I want you writing at a grade 11 level. Why would I stunt where you are? Right?
00:39:14.840 um so I'll let you what do you think about about that or about rubrics and then I'll go to my late
00:39:22.280 mark issue so I the only reason why I appreciate seeing a rubric is because I like this sense of
00:39:32.700 that the expectations have been shared with the students in some sort of format before we had
00:39:39.300 rubrics people would just say write a five paragraph essay make sure your sentences looks
00:39:43.700 like this what rubrics has forced teachers to do is to be more transparent about what they expect
00:39:52.140 the other thing a rubric does and has done is really helped parents understand how kids achieve
00:40:00.400 and achieve better because what what a rubric does is it says you did a few you did some you
00:40:07.580 did a lot you did a ton and then defining what a few some it looks like and because parents go this
00:40:13.440 is really good and i'm like yes but it's still the minimum of what's expected right and to get
00:40:20.660 parents to understand what it takes to do more right so to me i got you it's a tool
00:40:28.180 to make teachers be clearer to be fair and transparent and to teach teachers to teach
00:40:34.500 parents what what i do because i'm teaching graduate school again very hard to assess these
00:40:42.360 people who are outstanding right i don't put due dates i put all this everything's due the day
00:40:52.200 marks are due to the university oh wow because some people take a little bit longer than others
00:40:58.400 to do things and the due date doesn't allow them to achieve as well as they could it's very
00:41:03.900 stressful anxiety driven but this is when things should be done like if you have four assignments
00:41:09.960 in a four-month course i would expect one each month but i need everything by december 12th
00:41:16.120 so it works for both people people who need time and people who need the anxiety reduced
00:41:20.840 and then like you it's alliterations reiterations so here it's back again do you want to make
00:41:28.360 changes and this is to get better right go back and forth a thousand times until it's at its best
00:41:34.520 so you and i are on the same page about their annoyances but i'm looking at them more from
00:41:43.080 a practical perspective and a tool to assist us as teachers to protect ourselves because often
00:41:49.700 parents will come in families will come in and argue and kids in your age will argue about why
00:41:54.420 didn't i get this and it's just a nice tool to say i asked for seven citations and you only put five
00:42:00.340 so this section's a little lower but i'm going to give it back to you and if you add a couple more i
00:42:04.360 move you up so it's a protection teachable tool right right um and then i love draft draft draft
00:42:14.840 draft draft submit and to me that's why i love diagnostic formative and summative assessment
00:42:21.160 these are all diagnostic i'm just trying to see where you're at now i'm going to teach some stuff
00:42:25.320 and see where you're at now use all those skills and give me the summative right right right we
00:42:30.360 will mark and that i will give you clear expectations about and that i'll let you work on
00:42:35.000 a million times so we're on the same page when it comes to process so when it comes to that so again
00:42:42.760 i don't like the no late marks thing but here's how i handle eight marks because i feel as though
00:42:48.120 and i get what you're saying i get the anxiety i get all of that but i also get
00:42:53.640 look the real world is going to have hard deadlines so if i don't teach you how to handle
00:43:00.360 some kind of anxiety. And by the way, any good teacher worth anything would have a kid come in
00:43:06.500 and they say, listen, this just happened on the weekend. Can I have an extension? That's different.
00:43:11.220 When I talk about this, like my first day of class, all of my high school kids get an outline
00:43:18.160 just like in university. So they know every single assignment with full description. They know their
00:43:23.480 major project with full description. You could go home this weekend and get her done or try to get
00:43:29.960 it all done. And so I'm giving you that time, but I still feel there's value and weight in having a
00:43:38.680 hard deadline you have to achieve, especially for high school kids. Because if I said to a high
00:43:43.540 school kid, go ahead by December 12th, I'd have about 80% failing because they don't know how to
00:43:49.720 do that. You know what I mean? Why you and I are on the same page with this is the fact that you
00:43:55.220 and I believe in consequences. Yeah. I'm a tough cookie when it comes to consequences. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:01.140 You do the crime, you do the time, you know, respectfully. Um, but you've said something that
00:44:07.540 makes me really truly believe and respect you, which is on the first day of school, you're
00:44:12.480 transparent and you give them all the stuff. Absolutely. Do you know how many people out
00:44:16.080 there don't know what they're doing on Monday? Oh, that's crazy. They should be fine. That's
00:44:21.760 so frustrated because again a parent comes to me and says oh there was a pop quiz there was supposed
00:44:26.360 to be a quiz and i didn't teacher didn't do a quiz and i'm frustrated as a principal because
00:44:29.720 i got parents upset because what the teacher's done is ridiculous and they are disorganized and
00:44:34.340 they're not transparent and they're not available to answer questions and things aren't in the google
00:44:38.740 classroom right we have to be very organized transparent people if you are joanna then i
00:44:46.620 support whatever it is that you're doing. If you can say to me, listen, we're building a system
00:44:52.060 for crappy teachers. That's awful. No wonder everybody's so mad at me all the time. I say 0.99
00:44:59.140 teachers should get paid more. And they're like, especially a lot of people in the United States
00:45:02.120 say, Joanna, but do you have any idea what goes on at my kid's school? And I'm like, well, those
00:45:06.660 teachers shouldn't be teachers. I can't be building a system for crappy people. I'm going to build a 0.99
00:45:12.100 system for greatness and hope it achieves. Also with late marks is I also, I'll take off a few
00:45:18.380 late marks. And then, and this is where kids really love me. And I say that facetiously.
00:45:24.540 I give them another assignment. Yes. And I make them stay with me and do it.
00:45:29.820 Sounds great. I'm not going to take 50% off your assignment because that's not what you're
00:45:35.060 capable of, but you can't get away with it either. So here's what you got. You got, you know, I had
00:45:40.380 this one student very recently, he has a lot of focus problems and he's in grade 12 and it's still
00:45:46.340 a big problem and he's very upfront about it. And he goes, Joanna, listen, if I hand this one in late,
00:45:52.560 can you just not take marks off? Cause my mom's going to kill me or whatever. I said, listen,
00:45:56.200 I'm going to make you a deal. You're right. I'm going to mark this straight up, but, but you're
00:46:03.340 going to have to make it up to me. And you're going to have to prove to me that you're willing
00:46:08.020 to do extra work to make up for the extra time i gave you because then otherwise it's not equitable
00:46:13.060 to the class and it's a real world consequence you're supposed to work a shift this weekend at
00:46:18.420 tim hortons and you miss it or you're late you don't think we're going to make you stay a little
00:46:22.380 bit longer after or it is well what you're doing and i support 100 which is real world consequences
00:46:29.600 for the correct age group which are high school kids and kids getting prepared for college
00:46:34.080 university and trade schools and the fact that that's exactly what would happen in a business
00:46:39.600 sense right same with taxes okay so you missed the tax deadline it's not that you can't submit
00:46:46.160 your taxes because you're going to pay more you still have to submit your taxes yeah so those are
00:46:52.000 the conversations that i appreciate that age group teachers doing with their students can't we just
00:46:58.080 mandate this? Joanne, I have to say it depends. We're talking about three-year-olds to 21-year-olds.
00:47:06.480 No, but from high school, for example, can't I put this in the high school curriculum?
00:47:11.040 Here are my expectations of teachers, right? This is what I'm, you know, my only problem
00:47:17.760 with Ontario is you can't, a lot of the stuff I'm advocating for, doing it to 35 and 40 kids.
00:47:23.440 that is correct the other problem is you're in a private school so working with a teacher's union
00:47:32.160 is a very different situation i support teacher unions they have they they have done some great
00:47:39.200 things some professional development support of their members keeping people accountable i support
00:47:44.240 unions 100 but you couldn't put that in a curriculum because curriculum isn't for a teacher
00:47:49.280 right yeah it's about learning it's about learning it's not about teaching contract it would have to
00:47:55.120 be negotiated through a collective agreement situation with the union and what is in ontario
00:48:00.500 right now is we don't take marks off for lights i hate it same with attendance and again you don't
00:48:06.960 show up for your shift at tim hortons you're not getting paid but here's the thing about attendance
00:48:11.020 and i say this to my kids all the time they're like because we have this thing in our school
00:48:14.600 don't tell anybody but we'll say if you miss so many classes you won't get the credit
00:48:19.100 that's a lot it's a flat that's the same in public schools too but it's a lot again we're still
00:48:25.200 going to give you the credit and it's just it'll be 50 and i just said this the other day on one
00:48:29.960 of my tiktoks if we truly understood why some especially high school kids don't come to school
00:48:35.420 your heart would break well exactly you know they're living on the streets they're looking
00:48:40.480 after their age parents they're working three jobs like there's there are some really good
00:48:44.800 reasons why great kids don't come to school. And here's the great thing. If I have a kid that
00:48:51.580 doesn't need to sit in my class and learn and then just throw roll down in for the for the test dates
00:48:57.820 and always email assignments and they get a 90. It's 2021 Joanna. We have technology. We have
00:49:08.220 Microsoft Teams. We have Zoom recordings. If they don't physically need to be there
00:49:14.680 The only thing I like it, I'd like them to come because I do love collaborative learning.
00:49:19.480 I love it when they're working with their peers.
00:49:21.480 I do love oral presentations, but you can do that on Zoom too.
00:49:24.080 And I do love them to participate in the school environment, clubs, games, activities.
00:49:30.040 And I want a relationship with them.
00:49:32.360 But I'm sitting here two years into a three-year doctoral program with 15 doctoral students
00:49:40.880 I've never met in person, and I've never had better relationships with people in my life.
00:49:45.800 It is possible to have relationships with people through technology. But as a high school kid,
00:49:51.020 there's just so much enjoyment and energy that comes from a building. But you may have a kid
00:49:56.600 of your own. You may be raising younger siblings. You may be working two jobs. You may have a
00:50:00.220 chronic illness. All of these things are wonderful opportunities for us to show how technology
00:50:05.340 can allow for kids to be successful. I had a kid once who was brilliant in physics. That was his
00:50:11.920 thing, physics and math. And I taught him American history. And this kid would sit in the back of my
00:50:18.240 class, listen to my lecture, have his American history notes he would take. And then he would
00:50:25.640 do physics homework, not for his class for grade 12. And I used to get so mad at this kid. And I'd
00:50:32.780 like i won't say his name but i'd be like hun can you pay attention or i'll ask him a question to
00:50:38.060 catch him off guard and he'd know it every single time i'm like how am i supposed to be mad you are
00:50:42.860 that smart that's my mat or that aware i had a kid named matt who uh when harry potter came out
00:50:51.740 when like the second one that was like this big and it had a character named madame z and that was
00:50:56.700 my name and all he did was read the entire day at the back you know row six sixth seat the thick
00:51:04.860 thing same thing brilliant matt can i have an answer give an answer yeah but again this is
00:51:12.380 about the fact that we need to know our kids yeah to recognize that some students don't have to have
00:51:18.300 taking notes and looking at us to learn that this is about relationships with kids this is
00:51:22.540 about capabilities and most importantly that not every kid in a grade 12 class is identical
00:51:31.020 and don't expect them to be how people learn is fascinating and not everybody learns the same
00:51:40.180 absolutely and so again back to this idea of can we focus more on learning than teaching
00:51:46.100 can we focus more on leading than managing because when it comes to managing or when it
00:51:52.160 comes to the teaching piece, it's about you. And we need it to be about the students.
00:51:57.540 And I think in order to do that, and sort of on a final note, as we wrap up, but I think in order
00:52:02.880 to do that, we can't fund a system, and I know I'm in the private system, but we cannot fund a
00:52:09.460 public education system where we expect teachers, no matter what grade level, to teach 45 kids and
00:52:16.960 do that effectively. It cannot be done in a healthy way. And we can't blame the kid and we
00:52:22.420 can't blame the teacher. It is a funding organizational issue that we've decided who
00:52:28.680 cares, just shove a bunch of them in a class and they'll all get the same thing. But we're doing
00:52:33.740 all of us a disservice, right? Because in that class could be the next kid that cures cancer
00:52:38.840 or the next kid that writes the best Harry Potter book or God knows what. And we are stifling them,
00:52:44.860 limiting them failing them or passing them without even thinking but there's not a lot of educating
00:52:53.340 and it's better than it was yeah of course when i first started like full-time teaching in 2000
00:53:00.540 if that's 21 years ago it's 10 000 times better than it was the flexibility the knowledge the
00:53:06.460 sharing that you know the parent relationship it's better than it was which was straight rows
00:53:12.060 yeah you know everybody does exactly the same thing at the exact same time nobody talks to
00:53:19.020 each other you know it's better yeah the problem is it's that tragically hit song we're still you
00:53:24.900 know a century behind yeah and you know we could go to new zealand we can go to finland and we can
00:53:31.380 go to some beautiful schools in australia and steal some ideas but it's not necessarily going
00:53:35.140 to translate to where we are it's about leadership and understanding your community and being open
00:53:44.040 to having voices around the table saying what will work for us what will work for us it goes
00:53:50.740 right back full circle to what we talked about at the beginning you need the right people in the
00:53:54.700 room at the right time i love it i love how we came full circle i do too right at the end of
00:54:00.820 podcast now where can people find your brilliance so um i love twitter i'm a big twitter fan
00:54:08.420 all right on twitter i am principal zed and zed spelled zed zed okay on instagram which is c and
00:54:17.540 then my last name zeissner and then my tick tock is dr zeissner and those are my three um i actually
00:54:23.940 got rid of a whole bunch of social media recently i got rid of my facebook snapchat linkedin it was
00:54:29.540 overwhelming it wasn't providing the value that i wanted instagram's kind of my fun twitter is
00:54:34.740 really my educational leadership stuff and tick tock's where i'm trying to influence positively
00:54:38.980 and and bring joy to people so amazing and on that amazing note thank you so much for being on this
00:54:46.020 podcast i think look i think we send it off to trudeau and biden yeah you know and apparently
00:54:52.260 every single school in the united states because they devise their own curriculum i'm going to need
00:54:57.460 a lot of emails and uh and we'll see how it goes well what you're going to get is you're going to
00:55:02.660 say that that's not how it works where i am that's that's the problem wouldn't it be nice to know
00:55:08.820 that if we moved from alabama to alaska at least there would be some similarities anyway i never
00:55:14.740 got to congratulate you on your beautiful engagement that made me oh thank you so much
00:55:19.380 wow it really did surprise me to the point of almost running her over so there is your mom
00:55:24.340 baseball like it just couldn't have been beautiful you know and I said this to somebody the other day
00:55:29.800 I go you know not only did she propose and that's beautiful but what she did is she made sure that
00:55:35.920 every single thing that I loved was in the same space at one time she doesn't care about baseball
00:55:40.960 she kept calling it a rink that's not her deal she's a skater so that's not her deal you know
00:55:47.180 what I mean um but think about that think about that for a second it's like a teacher it's like
00:55:52.700 a teacher she knew that it needed to be about you and not her and teachers need to recognize it has
00:56:01.220 to be about and every year you got 30 new little faces too right what you did last year might not
00:56:05.260 work this year yeah yeah you're you know that that's why i watched and i thought oh she planned
00:56:11.800 that down to this to the outfits that would make you happy yeah yeah that was i've showed that i
00:56:19.500 know how many times the people about you want to know what true love and respect and kindness looks
00:56:24.620 like this is it right here yeah yeah you're i'm really happy for you thank you so much i appreciate
00:56:30.620 that yeah and your mom i i mean lots of prayers to your mom thank you so much thank you so much
00:56:36.220 well it was amazing i'm gonna have you back on another time so we've kind of fixed education a
00:56:41.020 little bit and i'll have you back on and we'll give it another go we'll just choose a different
00:56:45.580 topic whatever people want us to talk about just ask them what do they want to talk about we'll
00:56:49.580 just go for an hour give us a list yeah right middle they want to know our opinions on and i
00:56:55.900 think this was a good example that while you believe something that may be different from
00:57:00.620 what i believe in you and i still believe in the process we still believe in the process of being
00:57:05.820 accountable the process of being transparent the process of supporting student learning and how you
00:57:11.020 do it and how i do it's different but it's still about supporting kids success 100 perfect example
00:57:18.460 and on that note have a great day cheers we'll see you soon dismissed