Unlearn16: Class is in Session - The One Where I Yell Out 'Truck'. Buffy Season 5 Part 2

00:00:00.000 class is in session hey welcome to unlearn 16 classes in session guys we are at season 5 of

00:00:09.420 buffy the vampire slayer part 2 so if you haven't seen the other parts please go back and watch the

00:00:14.800 other 37 parts us leading up to this precise moment of of amazingness kind of amazingness

00:00:22.160 because like stewart really wants to get past it but i have a question i have a question to start

00:00:27.020 this entire thing not specific necessarily to season five but in a way it is do you think that

00:00:34.780 when somebody creates a show something this sort of iconic and this you know it's lasted this amount

00:00:41.180 of time because as we're talking about this show we're halfway through it well we're more than

00:00:44.700 halfway through the episodes um what i'm starting to understand like recognize a obviously we have

00:00:51.500 different interpretations we have different perceptions of what's gone on why it's gone on

00:00:56.140 what would have been better all of that kind of thing and then there's the research portion that

00:01:01.100 you know i don't do but you know you do in the sense of what did did the creators want what was

00:01:09.660 their intent what was their goal with episode a b and c or this storyline arc or whatever and here's 0.91

00:01:16.620 my question what do you think matters more because we're living in a world of a lot of crap gets

00:01:23.900 judged based on the way we perceive it do you think it matters more the intent of the creator

00:01:33.420 or the way that it's perceived and we're gonna have to say the way that it's perceived by the

00:01:40.300 majority of society who actually gives a crap out about it right because we're never going to talk

00:01:45.660 about all the perceptions you're going to talk about the way that the majority perceives it

00:01:50.940 and for a show like this it's been off the air for 20 years you know what i'm saying so like

00:01:58.460 it which one's more important stew what do you think or stephan either one you're in deep

00:02:04.460 thought i know that's a big question but i was really thinking because you know you go back and

00:02:08.140 watch this old stuff and not just buffy all the time and we place a lot of our judgments on it

00:02:14.380 from today's standpoint there's nowhere else there's no there's you can't do it any other

00:02:18.860 way all these people are like don't judge it from today i'm like well i can't time travel

00:02:23.480 yeah i can't go back i i think i think it has a lot more to do with the perception today

00:02:31.560 because when it comes to the writing room and this is just my interpretation of

00:02:36.320 we spend a lot of our time in retrospect filling the gaps that they didn't that they didn't fill

00:02:42.740 themselves so storylines that make more sense trying to justify character um statements or

00:02:50.100 character development um piecing back pieces or back history of characters so it makes more sense

00:02:56.940 for that character in that moment i feel like it's similar to i don't want to bring her into it but

00:03:02.480 in the harry potter universe you kind of have to separate the the creator from the art because

00:03:07.160 you then create your own version of it and then it expands and so i think for like the buffy verse

00:03:13.320 a lot of like the the diehard fans or a lot of the people who are still connecting with it today

00:03:18.580 are filling in those particular gaps that they forgot about like we talk about um obviously not

00:03:23.960 lore building or history building because it was very much monster of the week for the first few

00:03:28.100 seasons and you can see where they kind of drop the ball on things like dawn or xander or spike

00:03:33.860 and we sort of like interpret of what if also and also how it could have been and then just

00:03:40.200 kind of justify it by filling in those spaces so i would say it's more of the perceived after the

00:03:45.480 fact okay stew what do you think um i agree with stephan um i think that if i was to i think the

00:04:00.480 the the want to create a world and the want to create a show is really important as well i think

00:04:05.360 the what they meant to do in the beginning is is as important as the perception we have now

00:04:12.300 but i think that there is a risk when something becomes successful and many people have a piece

00:04:21.380 of it and it becomes very personalized to them and people wish in retrospect it would be something

00:04:27.980 different because it no longer belongs to the creator it belongs to the people that are viewing

00:04:33.900 it same as harry potter harry potter becomes is like entwined with a good chunk of millennial

00:04:40.780 um personality and culture because it was something to escape into and puppy is the same way

00:04:47.980 um i think a little bit more for like late millennial early gen x um or late gen x but

00:04:54.620 But I think where this show kind of strikes a balance between those things

00:05:01.700 is I think it has so much, and it continues on even now in comic book form

00:05:06.700 and people rediscovering it.

00:05:09.380 So I think that, I think it kind of leans to, I mean,

00:05:14.920 I think it's a balance of both, but I do think that it weighs

00:05:19.020 a little bit more to our perception because it is 20 years old.

00:05:24.620 I find that I only think about Joss Whedon when I want to complain about something.

00:05:28.760 You know what I mean?

00:05:29.240 Like, it's only when a character doesn't make sense or a scene doesn't make sense.

00:05:33.040 That's when I'm like, well, Joss dropped the ball on blank.

00:05:35.600 But when I'm enjoying the show and I'm creating that lore behind it, he has nothing to do with the equation.

00:05:41.160 He just kind of, he, you know, started the book and then we continue to write it as it goes on.

00:05:45.700 i think too um kind of off that point is when i complain about about joss whedon it's the same

00:05:53.660 complaint i have about jj abrams um and any other television show writer who found success with his

00:05:59.620 one thing and then wasn't happy with that one success had to branch it off into other things

00:06:05.760 so it diluted um what was and it became a very watered down version in the end and you can tell

00:06:14.340 when that show was passed off to somebody else

00:06:18.740 who didn't have that clear vision that he wanted.

00:06:23.100 And I think that, yeah, like, he was able to hire writers

00:06:26.640 that wrote in the vein and were with him the whole time.

00:06:32.280 But I think when it comes to looking back at it

00:06:35.240 from a critical lens of a 2022 kind of perception of myself,

00:06:40.420 there are things that i think he as a creator should have plotted out at least in the beginning

00:06:48.080 to be like this is where i want them to go this is if it changes because the characters change

00:06:53.660 it and the chemistry changes it that's fine but this is the overall beginning to end and this is 0.63

00:06:59.280 where i want it to be um you can see that with kind of like amy sherman palladino is that she

00:07:04.940 always wanted it to arrive at one place and she kind of got derailed in the seventh season when

00:07:09.080 she was no longer writing it with her husband um and it was somebody else who came in to write it

00:07:14.600 but that clear trajectory of character development was a singular train going forward no matter who

00:07:20.840 wrote the episodes it was it always got them to the same end um we can always complain about the

00:07:27.400 character development of the characters tell someone from like heroes to villains in people's

00:07:32.680 size but it still was a clear um like building of the character that made sense to that character

00:07:40.520 and the situations it was in i think sometimes with buffy we we hop over with character development

00:07:48.920 because we need the character to be a different place for the story i think that's and i think

00:07:54.480 that's where you find us as fans filling in what they must have thought or felt because it wasn't

00:08:01.540 what he told to us or we weren't allowed to experience that with them well and it's interesting

00:08:06.900 because you can you can also definitely tell when joss is at the helm like when he's actually writing

00:08:12.260 the character the the episodes um there was like who was it it was tracy forbes who wrote

00:08:19.940 like the worst episodes of season four like beer bad something blue where the wild things are

00:08:24.900 worst episodes you can tell when that's her stories and then joss whedon when he comes in

00:08:29.140 there's this even though they mimic him as best as they can there are some moments in there where

00:08:33.560 it's like oh that is a hundred percent Joss like a hundred percent and then there was um

00:08:39.600 what was the one there was a who wrote um the episode with with that was all about Anya

00:08:47.000 season seven um was it selfless selfless maybe yeah I can't remember yeah so it was it was it

00:08:57.040 was selfless so he drew goddard uh wrote some of the best episodes of season seven and then went

00:09:02.360 on to write once upon a time which is again one of my favorite shows so but you can tell when the

00:09:06.920 writing is really strong and then yeah i also think he survived himself with um with some kind

00:09:14.200 of the writers that were able to emulate him and had their own unique voices in the just universe

00:09:21.660 like Jane Espenson, like

00:09:23.960 Marty Noxon, like David Fury

00:09:26.120 like Douglas Petrie

00:09:27.640 but I do think that

00:09:31.440 when you kind of got other writers in

00:09:34.240 like kind of writers of the week

00:09:35.580 it really kind of

00:09:38.200 diverged into their own stories

00:09:40.140 which I agree with Stefan

00:09:42.180 I do think however that

00:09:44.240 you can 100%

00:09:46.360 tell when Marty Noxon

00:09:48.440 took on

00:09:49.180 um as executive producer and showrunner um because you can see the tones of the show change

00:09:58.080 like tonally it's a different show um which hilariously off of stefan's point of like you

00:10:06.700 can tell another writer writes it it's not somebody else marty noxon joined grace anatomy

00:10:11.640 for a short time as a showrunner after Buffy.

00:10:16.540 And you can tell the episodes that she wrote

00:10:19.360 because they are so tonally different

00:10:21.820 from the rest of the episodes of Grey's Anatomy

00:10:25.180 and ultimately didn't work out

00:10:26.500 because she didn't sound or want the same vision

00:10:29.960 as Shonda Rhimes.

00:10:30.860 She wanted something a little bit different.

00:10:33.900 You're a Grey's Anatomy fan, aren't you, Tom?

00:10:36.720 I love Grey's Anatomy, yeah.

00:10:38.340 So she wrote the three episodes where Buffy,

00:10:40.580 where um meredith drowns and comes in that dreamland yeah yeah yeah different nurses and

00:10:46.860 it makes no sense because what happens in that episode where with a show rooted in medicine and

00:10:52.660 reality is that meredith finds out things about the fellow characters she would never know herself

00:10:58.380 whether it be um in passing conversations right out in those episodes that christina sat in the

00:11:05.000 car where her father bled out and couldn't do anything meredith would never have known that

00:11:10.760 because christina never would have told her um so it she comes back with this like these this more

00:11:19.600 information on like what's happening that there are ghosts in the hospital that all of these things

00:11:24.140 and it it's so overtly out of the gray's anatomy universe it doesn't make sense and that's very

00:11:32.740 much what stefan's talking about with this is you bring other writers in and you're like well this

00:11:37.420 is a fun and great episode in the fabric of the show it is a tear yeah yeah also i apologize it

00:11:44.660 wasn't he didn't go to once upon a time he went to lost it was jada spenson who went to once upon

00:11:48.140 a time and she had but she was my favorite writer for both once and buffy she was my favorite because

00:11:52.880 yeah i do i want you guys to keep i want you to keep in mind this question like but for the end

00:11:57.480 like okay after season like season seven kind of um and i don't want to i'm not going to go

00:12:04.220 into it now i just want you to keep in mind is it a feminist show that's it god is it a feminist

00:12:11.260 well don't it did you hear my instruction sir i didn't say but leave it till the end because i

00:12:19.760 think i think we have to look at it in its entirety we have to look you know what i mean

00:12:23.760 that's a hard question and part of it was it intended to be a feminist show written by a man

00:12:32.900 who just didn't know how to write it well don't answer it now steward not but i won't i won't

00:12:39.380 answer it but can can i it that that does kind of bring me up to something about that i want to

00:12:45.540 bring back to season four fantastic yeah episode four right i mean season four season four yeah

00:12:50.180 because we're gonna talk about riley because this is essentially riley's last season and he'll show

00:12:54.420 up for episodes here and there but whatever um riley sucks but i've so i've been i'm finishing

00:13:01.660 season four up and the episode the yoko factor really really really bothered me because buffy

00:13:08.220 goes back to angel to when she knows that faith is gone so she goes to try and help him he comes

00:13:13.880 back xander being xander tells riley how buffy gets or angel loses his soul right so immediately

00:13:23.560 because it's man testosterone versus testosterone he automatically when when he finally sees buffy

00:13:30.680 and she says i don't really want to talk about it he got into my head it's okay he automatically

00:13:34.840 assumes they slept together automatically and then he says well i guess i'll leave you alone

00:13:39.080 and she's like wait what's what's going on he's like never mind it just leaves after she tells

00:13:42.760 tells him about forest and then he finds angel again assumes they've had sex with one another

00:13:49.600 says oh did you get that perfect happiness and he's like what are you okay and so they start

00:13:54.200 beating each other up shows up again and is consistently essentially just saying hey my 0.99

00:13:58.620 girlfriend's a slut and she must be a slut because you're her ex-boyfriend and i must be 1.00

00:14:02.420 so upset because while you were dating and she's in a consenting adult she had sex with her partner 1.00

00:14:07.420 at the time and now i'm offended and clearly upset because i'm a man i'm a white man who has

00:14:13.020 to be upset about the fact that my girlfriend had sex with somebody else before we met

00:14:16.120 and then assume that he slept with her or she slept with him a second time while we were together

00:14:22.260 to the point where she even says have i given you any reason not to trust me of course not

00:14:26.740 why would she she said many a times how much she cares about him but he this is just terrible

00:14:32.020 writing just assumes buffy slept with angel because of course she would because my girl 0.99

00:14:37.040 apparently my girlfriend is a whore horrible but wait for it but then in season five when he's 0.99

00:14:44.480 having vampire hookers sucking on his arms he gives buffy an ultimatum that she needs to trust him 1.00

00:14:51.560 or he's going to leave yeah so who the fuck is toxic and wait a minute the fucking writers 1.00

00:14:58.520 the fucking writers of buffy have her run chase him chasing a helicopter to beg that piece of 1.00

00:15:06.440 beige wallpaper to stay but but but my ass you i think you guys underestimate how truthful his 1.00

00:15:16.860 character is to a lot of men you you think it's bad writing i think it's a documentary okay you 0.97

00:15:25.540 it it you it is and you know what the more insecure it's so funny because you know while

00:15:35.000 we were out last night, I had a bit of a revelation about, you know, straight guys, not, not

00:15:40.920 giga men, but well, because, because it's truthful to the time and it's truthful of insecure men.

00:15:49.520 And what Riley was from day freaking one was yes, wallpaper, but B, as soon as he found out who she 0.54

00:15:57.360 was, he was an insecure little boy. And every action that he was going to engage in from there

00:16:04.300 forward was going to be about that. And the reason why Buffy swallowed it so much is because

00:16:10.820 her past relationships were so traumatic and so ridiculous that this one, that pretended to be 0.99

00:16:19.440 safe, that pretended to, that gave the illusion of the guy from Iowa or wherever the fuck he was 0.99

00:16:25.500 from, that is supposed to be the thing she should chase across the field. That scene wasn't about 0.97

00:16:32.560 her weakness like it wasn't about who she is it was about that weakness i think in everybody

00:16:37.920 who is told so many times that's the right guy she's told that by everybody don't let him go

00:16:45.520 he's the good one well well no he's not because toxicity and control comes in so many different

00:16:52.980 forms he's no different i was joking i was joking about last night it pertains to this

00:16:58.520 I was talking about a guy, a guy that I met last night while we were out and I'm standing there

00:17:05.460 talking to him. And this guy, I was nice. I was, I joked. I was trying to be, I got introduced.

00:17:12.080 I'm just trying to be, and what I could feel, I, I, and the way I dress and how I present

00:17:17.740 am a litmus test for straight men. I swear to God, I want to put this out here right now.

00:17:23.600 I'm telling you right now, any straight women that want to test if their person is actually 0.97

00:17:30.320 just a confident guy, self-aware, good with himself, just let me stand next to him for

00:17:38.320 about 10 minutes.

00:17:39.400 Because I'm telling you what, what you can see with a straight guy standing next to me

00:17:44.720 for 10 minutes is a lack of eye contact, an inability to say anything.

00:17:50.980 I've never seen anybody try to puff, literally puff up their chest more.

00:17:59.580 Just give me 15 minutes.

00:18:01.660 Yeah.

00:18:01.880 And it's just insecurity.

00:18:03.360 A hundred percent it's insecurity.

00:18:06.180 But, and that's sometimes I get met with aggression, right?

00:18:09.500 Like that's, that's one kind of guy.

00:18:11.280 Other times I get met, I get met with just being dismissed and ignored and whatever,

00:18:15.360 which is fine.

00:18:15.900 I mean, I don't care.

00:18:17.020 I'm just saying you want to find the good guy.

00:18:20.420 Put me in the same room with them.

00:18:22.280 Let me give him 15 minutes.

00:18:24.180 And with Buffy, the biggest thing is that like Buffy only, 1.00

00:18:27.460 and this has nothing to do with her intelligence.

00:18:29.360 Like Buffy is a character or as a person in the show is a bright person,

00:18:32.920 obviously. 0.91

00:18:33.860 But it's all she knows are these toxic relationships with every man that she's

00:18:39.500 met because she meets them when she's a teenager.

00:18:42.240 And then she goes in, she's like, I've got a solid guy.

00:18:45.040 He treats me and I love him.

00:18:46.460 She literally showed up. 0.90

00:18:47.880 I was laughing so hard when she goes to Angel. 1.00

00:18:50.420 and then just throws herself in his life acts like a brat and then she's like oh by the way 1.00

00:18:54.800 i met a guy and he gets me off bye and like like you know blast her like middle finger she walks 0.99

00:18:59.680 away to angel but all she knows are these toxic relationships she doesn't know any better and i

00:19:04.900 genuinely think and i don't know what's happened in the seasons uh in the comics so far but it's

00:19:08.980 one of those things of like separate yourself from everybody everybody either be alone or separate

00:19:13.480 yourself from everyone except xander and willow and giles and just go somewhere else where nobody

00:19:18.080 knows who you are and just meet someone normal just meet a normal person in a normal situation

00:19:23.520 in your 30s like because you have to separate yourself from these these insane relationships

00:19:28.560 that you only know as a teenager constantly in danger you know what i mean like stop worrying

00:19:34.320 about people trying to protect you but her entire story from the beginning is told through the eyes

00:19:40.320 and her reactions to men yeah for season seven yeah yeah in the beginning it's her father

00:19:46.960 yeah it's how he left her that's true you find out about the the um childhood friend she has

00:19:54.800 she has angel then she has spike then she has um what was scott's name who died scott then you had

00:20:02.240 parker then you had riley then you had you have giles you have the watchers council you have

00:20:07.920 everybody her entire story is built around the men in her life and her reactions to them sander

00:20:13.440 so oh my god sander what's what's frustrating about these this this story is that yes

00:20:22.140 do i think it's a feminist um we're not supposed to answer um i'm answering it i'm actually going

00:20:29.520 to answer it later on i think in season seven we start to see her stand on two feet yeah but i 0.98

00:20:35.720 think it takes six fucking seasons yeah to do that and it has to have her come back from like 0.90

00:20:43.180 like from heaven be dragged down by her friends and have to live in this kind of world but still 0.98

00:20:49.720 it's only in season six is she's standing by herself without a man in her life like seven

00:20:57.940 comes back and kind of seven you mean yeah season seven she's standing by herself yep

00:21:02.700 right i was if you guys let me finish i would have clarified what i was saying

00:21:07.460 okay sorry thank you for jumping in okay sorry season six when she is fully alone in her thoughts

00:21:14.820 and her depression and she reaches out for despite raleigh does come back and he resurfaces with his

00:21:20.980 hot new girlfriend and kind of like rubs his perfect life in his face her face and she feels

00:21:27.180 bad she already feels toxic about the relationship with spike and she feels that she is doing

00:21:33.560 something terrible and also that she is wrong but again all of these stories up until the end where

00:21:40.040 she crawls back out of the hole at the end of season six does she finally like look around and

00:21:46.500 go maybe i don't need a man and they still try it yeah with robin like with robin and thank god

00:21:53.240 they moved that Robin to faith. But never once in all of the six seasons that we see Buffy is she 0.89

00:22:00.540 not attached or fighting for or explaining herself to or apologizing to a man in her life.

00:22:07.800 Or you find out a man has done something to her to create the woman that she is right now.

00:22:13.820 And I think that it's quite a dangerous kind of game to play with a character that's supposed to

00:22:20.040 be as strong as her because she is in effect even the riley thing i agree with you joe i know

00:22:28.320 exactly why they had her run because it was the normal relationship she wanted this like corn-fed

00:22:32.420 iowa boy who was perfect on paper he was attractive um in a very could keep up wasn't evil

00:22:42.640 poppy's Ken doll sort of way um he was polite he was good to her friends and family he was there

00:22:50.260 to support her but again he was always um feeling inferior to her whether her strength her power

00:22:58.060 her influence um and you see that happen in like season five where he's like I'll never be

00:23:04.240 able to protect you but it's it always feels like Buffy's storyline is her making herself smaller

00:23:14.000 to fit the men in her life but I I think that's the point

00:23:19.400 I I honestly believe and it's funny because you say something I mean I always look at it

00:23:26.780 sort of in a metaphoric light because we talk about this and you say she literally has to

00:23:32.000 crawl out of the grave. Everything about this is metaphoric. And I really do believe that most women

00:23:39.200 in this culture, especially the culture of that day, that is just true. As much as I don't want 1.00

00:23:47.120 it to be true, it is true. It is true how you're identified. It is true how you're judged. It is

00:23:53.080 true how you create some semblance of an identity. And it's also true, I think, that at least for my

00:24:01.520 generation, and I'd like to say it's changed, but I don't, sure, everything changes, but

00:24:07.720 for that generation, for people that grew up in the 90s, I honestly believe it wasn't until 0.99

00:24:16.020 our 30s, our 40s, where we're like, fuck, and gay or straight, gay or straight, I think 0.98

00:24:27.400 that you have these weights of expectation that you carry subconsciously because nobody has these 0.98

00:24:34.480 conversations or I never, I never got to see it. These are, to me, this should be a high school

00:24:39.440 conversation. These should be elementary school conversations and we're not having them then.

00:24:45.400 We're not having them then for a boatload of reasons, whatever political reasons you want

00:24:50.240 to talk about. We're not having them then. So when she says, and I know we're jumping ahead

00:24:54.680 to the whole, I'm not done baking yet. Holy crap. What a stupid line, but what a perfect line. 0.97

00:25:01.140 It's a bad line, but it's a perfect line. It's a terrible line. 1.00

00:25:03.880 It's a terrible line, but it's a perfect example of this notion that we live so much and we're so

00:25:13.740 freaking sure of ourselves as young women. You walk around with a level of confidence and I look

00:25:22.280 back at it and go, what a crock of shit. What? I had no idea. I had no idea. Somebody could have 1.00

00:25:29.320 hit me with a truck and I still wouldn't have understood the culture in which I existed

00:25:36.300 and the ways in which I tried to live up to that consistently. And what did I have to do? Well,

00:25:44.220 I had to, you know, you have to get buried, metaphorically, let's hope. You have to get

00:25:49.660 buried in order to see it for what it is. And I think kids today are talking about it more.

00:25:56.660 Like, they're amazing. Like, I'm constantly amazed at teenagers, right? And they're talking

00:26:01.880 about it more, and they're throwing it out more, which is why the adults of today are so freaking

00:26:06.020 terrified. They're terrified because 16-year-olds are talking the way we're talking right now. They

00:26:11.360 didn't have to climb out of a freaking grave. They looked at the picture and went, no, this is 0.94

00:26:15.340 garbage. No, I'm going to be who I am. I'm going to, you know, pronouns and gender and race and, 0.99

00:26:23.120 and everything, aesthetic, how you choose to present yourself. These are all things in which

00:26:29.480 you succumb to back then and, and had to go through a real horrific awakening

00:26:36.660 in order to understand it. And I still have friends that are like in their world in our

00:26:42.140 40s right who are just now going oh right i i get it and the funny part is if you don't get buried

00:26:52.420 the delusion lasts longer it's true if you don't get buried yeah sorry stew i i i i wanted to

00:27:02.780 clarify i i 100 agree i think that it wasn't until the seventh season that i really could see

00:27:09.520 and could actually point to incidents where i would classify buffy as a third um a third wave

00:27:17.280 feminist and kind of that feminist movement yeah where i can see like especially the whole storyline

00:27:23.920 of her um training these potential slayers because one man or a tribe of men somewhere 1.00

00:27:30.800 said yeah one woman in all of the world is going to have the power to fight the vampires in the

00:27:35.200 the force of the darkness i think is important because what it says is and it's in its it's

00:27:40.240 the simplest of terms is that i will help empower an army of people i will empower the collective

00:27:47.420 to stand up and fight again huge choice with their yes um consent make your choice

00:27:54.400 tattooed right here yeah it will not be but i will do that with the power of the exception of

00:28:01.560 the one person who has this power who's my voice and my power to do this so I agree a hundred

00:28:07.060 percent about that I just think it took a hell of a long time to get there and I think that

00:28:14.640 I think that she often falls into the trope of every strong female character and you can see

00:28:21.580 in every single tv show Meredith like uh Meredith Gray Olivia Benson all of these like strong 0.90

00:28:28.480 feminist characters that we have come to love and kind of hold on a pedestal in the early part of 0.96

00:28:33.920 their seasons were told through the eyes of the relationships they had they were told their

00:28:37.760 storylines were told a side of the men and i think that in when this case kind of buffy

00:28:46.640 it feels like they missed something in the earlier seasons because she is such a strong character

00:28:54.240 until you had a man in her life and then she becomes she kind of goes against herself and

00:29:00.960 i understand that's really what the story is i'm gonna tell and i get it it just feels looking back

00:29:06.000 on it quite sad yeah i have a loss of um i think it's supposed to be good storytelling well it's

00:29:13.280 like i think she still could have had those moments by herself i think she still could

00:29:19.600 have come to those conclusions and that growth if given the opportunity to experience and do

00:29:25.680 things by herself well and in season seven she essentially takes it on herself too like angel

00:29:31.800 shows up and not to talk too much about it in season seven but i love the idea of of in i think

00:29:37.540 it was him where dawn is going to kill herself to prove her love for a man and she literally says

00:29:43.220 no man is worth your life ever period but then you see like bella swan saying i'm gonna jump

00:29:49.100 of a cliff for you to prove my love like because i need to see you we're never going to talk about

00:29:53.200 twilight but like you know what i mean also if you were going to get hit by that car or hit by

00:29:57.460 the bus to understand it you wouldn't have because edward would have saved you just in time because

00:30:01.540 of course a man would save you because that's what we're teaching people but they had to i i still

00:30:06.740 say that but don't you think season five so going back to season five because i know we spent a lot

00:30:10.820 of time in this episode sort of you know waxing poetic here but don't you think that the second

00:30:18.040 half once riley goes away and she runs and he's gone it it really is it's the first time we do

00:30:25.400 see buffy without because it's all about dawn that's the thing but then it's it's you're just

00:30:30.360 replacing one problem with another it's like you're replacing riley with dawn you know but

00:30:36.600 it's just still different she's not identified through i don't think it's the same way i don't

00:30:41.160 think it's the same thing and let's be honest we are those if we didn't have those people in our

00:30:47.000 worlds that matter, that are essential, that are, you know, our heart, our soul. Who are we? We're

00:30:56.000 not people. I don't think you do any learning without back and forth. I'd prefer it not to be

00:31:02.140 in the sort of heteronormative, like, you know, love, trauma, bonding kind of way. But I don't

00:31:11.980 think that we i think the way that we progress as people and the way that we progress as um you know

00:31:20.260 intelligent thought-provoking individuals is through those relationships i never think it's

00:31:27.300 void of that relationship i don't i personally don't think you find yourself walking you know 0.94

00:31:34.100 wild you know that stupid movie i don't think you find yourself there but but like oh is that the 0.99

00:31:41.180 with reese witherspoon yeah well you get my point all of this yeah yeah utter garbage that's not 0.99

00:31:47.760 where you find yourself but i mean both to both your points it's it makes sense that like buffy

00:31:52.860 doesn't start learning to be on her own or be herself until season seven because in season five

00:31:58.040 they just replace more trauma or one trauma with more trauma and she she always spends her time

00:32:04.940 focusing externally so that she doesn't focus on herself when riley is gone she focuses on anya and

00:32:11.000 xander when that kind of works itself out she's only about dawn then her mom then dawn again and

00:32:17.140 then dawn and then finally in the way of the world she is just so exhausted because rather than

00:32:21.740 focusing on fixing and and dealing with her own issues she's constantly helping others and she

00:32:26.180 finally just drops and becomes comatose essentially because she's just so exhausted isn't that what

00:32:31.560 isn't that what we do oh i'm in it now i'm doing it now people all of us isn't that what we do

00:32:39.300 Don't we externally focus in our lives, in our relationships, in our younger years?

00:32:46.540 Remember how young she is in this too, right?

00:32:48.740 Yeah, 20.

00:32:49.740 When this ends, she's like not even done university, right?

00:32:54.480 So don't we do that until we break ourselves?

00:32:59.460 In most cases, don't we fixate externally?

00:33:06.360 And again, this generation is a little bit different,

00:33:08.580 but don't we fixate externally in my relationship with my mom my relationship with my dad my partner

00:33:15.060 my friends my whatever don't we do that until we're comatose and a you know another world's

00:33:22.460 god is stealing our sister well it's literally but it's the point where like it's the weight of

00:33:28.000 the world on her shoulders because she's 20 years old she has the weight of the world and now she

00:33:32.140 has to essentially be the mom so now she's the slayer and the mother and the sister and the best

00:33:38.560 friend and the chosen one all these things together because of course in joss whedon

00:33:43.280 fashion we just have to take out someone in the worst possible way i'll say though that the only

00:33:48.880 satisfying thing two satisfying things about this entire season was the gift and slapping dawn two

00:33:54.880 of the most satisfying moments this entire season i would watch that on a loop and then immediately

00:34:00.720 apologizes like don't apologize to her she's a monster good episode though she what are you

00:34:07.460 thinking there stew i'm just trying to figure out her she was 20 years old in in the gift

00:34:13.800 yeah yeah she's 22 yeah she was born in 19 she is 22 like she's 22 when she gets her

00:34:22.300 shit together in chosen yeah i wish i wish i wish i wasn't functioning at 22 because i truly believe

00:34:34.180 the softer life is and i know this is so weird and i don't i i wish it weren't true but the 0.95

00:34:40.820 softer life is the less you're pushed into the fray either through whatever thing is pushing

00:34:48.880 you out of that bubble right the quicker that happens the quicker you're the the quicker you're

00:34:56.420 going to get to being 22 buffy and not 47 joe well it's it's it's very much like it's very much

00:35:05.420 like something stewart said a while ago where it's like if you really push yourself you drink

00:35:08.960 red wine in the rain you don't drink white it's a very different experience you know better to drink

00:35:14.600 red you know you you you have to immerse yourself again it's why everybody always says what's the

00:35:21.880 one thing you would tell young it's a one piece of advice and i'm like go to therapy and they're

00:35:26.640 like and i'm like not to fix yourself nope you weren't we're talking about how do we get time

00:35:32.840 alone that matters not alone climbing wild without the right shoes how do we get time alone that

00:35:39.320 matters and part of that an example of that is going to be diving deep into who you are and why

00:35:46.200 you matter and what you need and what you don't need and what you don't want nobody takes time i

00:35:51.720 don't know many people who take time to do that what do we wait for we we wait to get hit by the

00:35:57.000 truck we wait to get buried alive and then all of a sudden we're made we're freaking out trying to

00:36:01.800 make a psychiatrist appointment because i'm ready to collapse right that's when that's when we call

00:36:07.320 the number that's when we call the emergency hotline because we're ready to break and it's

00:36:12.840 at that breaking point heaven help us if we make it through that breaking point that you you can

00:36:18.120 come to a different perception but i think that's what buffy does well it's all of these breaking

00:36:24.120 points and i think the fact that she has her mom dies well she takes care of her mom so she's a mom

00:36:29.000 to her mom and her sister for a while and then when her dies she dies she's a mom to dawn like

00:36:34.520 seriously she really takes into that and her job is to protect and her job well i see that being 0.54

00:36:41.400 not necessarily the goal of feminism i sometimes look at buffy as the reality of a feminist struggle 1.00

00:36:52.200 existing in a patriarchal world so of course she has to take all that on because that's what women 0.54

00:36:59.320 do that's that's what women do you know and again not get thanked no men no of course it's not a 0.90

00:37:06.260 good thing no and not get thanked because again it's she's the secret slayer so like no one knows

00:37:11.220 what she's doing so she saves the world of like all these times and it's thankless there's a

00:37:16.840 thankless position she goes well we just don't talk about it it's like it's like melinda warren

00:37:26.220 on arlinda gordon on ghost whisperer it's supposed to be a secret gift she has but yet

00:37:31.860 the entire town of 50 people knows it's important to spread the knowledge because we get to the end

00:37:40.100 and what does buffy do we get to that that very cool scene right we get to the gift

00:37:46.460 and it is a gift it is a very besides how spike gets beaten is just i don't horribly embarrassing

00:37:54.160 besides that literally one of my favorite episodes on the edge the moment on the edge

00:37:59.760 where she makes that choice is pretty awesome but also still very reflective of what women are 1.00

00:38:11.580 supposed to do a hundred percent but wouldn't it have been so interesting because she literally

00:38:18.060 says like my one of my favorite lines of that hits harder now than it did then was when she's

00:38:22.780 with giles training she's like i'm ready and she's like i've always beat them i've always won

00:38:27.300 i i killed angel but now i don't understand i wish my mom was here and when she stands up she says

00:38:33.340 if dawn dies i quit yeah what would have been like if dawn had died and she quit what a different

00:38:41.040 season six because i i genuinely feel like the only one of the one of the big factors of them

00:38:46.380 ending this season the way they did was because they were leaving the wb they had been canceled

00:38:50.540 and they didn't know if they're coming back they didn't know yeah so what is a more interesting

00:38:54.880 cliffhanger to get people to come back to if they do a a rogue slayer or a dead slayer what would

00:39:00.900 have been more interesting how do we get her back what do they do how do we i i really love the idea

00:39:06.340 that if she got up there and and you can tell me what you would have done but i would have just been

00:39:09.980 like that scene with um dakota fanning and the baby in twilight just toss into the fire because

00:39:15.320 it's done i get it i've already made my choice like if the world's gonna end and i death is

00:39:20.640 my gift i guess i'm going to take her out and then just walk away i think that would have been

00:39:24.620 a very very interesting season six of trying to get her back into it and give her a reason

00:39:30.720 they could have all of the theme all all of the themes from season six of getting her back from

00:39:37.200 being dead they could have done it could have been the same it could have been the same thing

00:39:41.260 you didn't need to really change that much

00:39:44.200 going to spike her pain because she's in pain

00:39:46.320 all these other things

00:39:47.280 in a similar way for a different motivation

00:39:50.160 exactly you know I really

00:39:52.240 think that would have been interesting because let's be real

00:39:54.340 after season 5 Dawn doesn't have a place 0.99

00:39:56.180 she really doesn't

00:39:57.960 you know 0.99

00:39:58.280 no but like

00:40:01.560 I don't know what do you guys think

00:40:03.240 I do have a question about

00:40:05.140 I want to go back to season 4 for a second

00:40:06.680 oh I love season 4 let's go back

00:40:09.080 we all hate season four but we can't help ourselves but live in it no no no it's when

00:40:14.600 the death is your gift part what i find is is really interesting is the fact that in season

00:40:19.000 four when she meets anaya that was the first slayer and she's uh i hope i'm saying her name

00:40:24.680 right sanaya right sanaya i don't i didn't even know i always thought her name was the first slayer

00:40:30.280 i didn't know that they had a name yeah according to the comic books they have given her a name her

00:40:34.840 Her name is Sineya. 0.99

00:40:36.320 Sineya. 1.00

00:40:36.840 S-I-N-E-Y-A. 1.00

00:40:40.440 Sineya. 1.00

00:40:40.780 I like that name.

00:40:41.580 Sineya, yeah.

00:40:42.900 I like it.

00:40:43.740 I'm into it. 0.95

00:40:44.780 What I like is the fact that when she first encounters Sineya in her dreams at the end of season four, she rejects and mocks her.

00:40:56.100 She remocks the insistence that she work alone. 0.79

00:41:00.380 She mocks Sineya's appearance. 0.89

00:41:02.840 and rejects the entire teachings that sort of happened.

00:41:07.620 And basically Sinead kind of lets them out of their dream.

00:41:12.460 It isn't until season five when she really embraces

00:41:14.940 like needing to know more about the Slayer lineage

00:41:16.960 and her power and what she can do

00:41:19.440 that she seek the guidance from Sinead 0.99

00:41:22.120 and learns that death is her gift.

00:41:25.920 Which comes at the worst time.

00:41:28.020 Sorry?

00:41:29.020 Which comes at the worst time

00:41:30.100 because she believes because of her mother

00:41:31.480 that death is not a gift which is why the revelation comes death and like death and

00:41:37.100 destruction is her gift to the world yeah and like a hundred percent like i would also take that and

00:41:42.140 be like death is your gift and be like great amazing i'm a murderer what fun harbinger of

00:41:49.280 death yeah but i think that what was so interesting is the fact that death being her gift it still

00:41:58.600 could have been turned into death of dawn yeah it's a gift you're saving the world it is a gift

00:42:04.640 to the world it's also a gift to dawn yeah setting her free yeah because dawn isn't real

00:42:11.820 because dawn's not real yeah and you never like the fact that dawn like the key got taken out of

00:42:20.600 her or whatever like she was used and then she survives was also not predetermined no nobody

00:42:26.460 had any idea that once you oh once you used her to open the whatever that it was over she was going

00:42:32.700 to survive after that yeah that would have been all of her energy expunged like yeah there wasn't 0.97

00:42:38.780 ever any idea or proof that she was going to stick around for the next two seasons and annoy the hell 1.00

00:42:44.540 out of everybody like well if they knew it was like two drops of blood i think they would have

00:42:48.780 been like oh okay well sure like i guess she won't die it's it's just and also we don't know like

00:42:55.420 we know that she was energy but we don't know like what about it like what is it she part of

00:43:00.620 a collective is it is it like a gem thing is it like a is she a creature where is she from like

00:43:05.980 does she just not have memory because the whole point of glory was that she was supposed to just

00:43:09.980 be in this vessel and die with the vessel she had no i just it's just it's again it's in to bring

00:43:18.300 it back to what you said it's like in restless she says no friends just the kill were alone 0.91

00:43:23.260 And then she says, death is your gift.

00:43:24.980 And it's like, so she's essentially saying the same thing twice.

00:43:27.940 But yeah, like, I just,

00:43:30.140 interesting that she just rejects her outright the first time

00:43:32.500 and then takes it to heart the second time

00:43:34.260 in such a dramatic way.

00:43:37.020 I, 100%, yeah, 100%.

00:43:39.400 I just, I think the major failing of Dawn's character

00:43:41.980 is the writing of Dawn's character.

00:43:44.480 Yeah, 100%, 100%.

00:43:46.200 I think she could have been a really interesting addition to the show. 0.89

00:43:50.800 And people still would have had a problem with her in the beginning. 0.99

00:43:52.820 doesn't fit doesn't make sense blah blah blah blah great but like into season six so she goes 0.98

00:43:58.760 from season five as a whining complaining 14 year old girl or 15 year old girl 14 just 14

00:44:04.460 14 i think 14 yeah 14 in season five to a 15 year old in season six who is the still complaining

00:44:12.960 promoting worst and it never really goes past that it's like the writers just continue to write her

00:44:19.320 like the same way in season four into season five into season six and then in season seven

00:44:26.380 she was still the same at least until the middle when got visited by her mother and then she

00:44:33.060 started becoming more adult but it was one step too far when she was like oh i'm doing research

00:44:39.140 now and being part of the scooby gang because you had two seasons of her no real character

00:44:44.640 development other than being left abandoned or as the damsel in distress every other episode

00:44:51.400 which is even called out in once upon once more with feeling when don and buffy says gotta go

00:44:56.800 save dawn again it's tuesday must be a tuesday which i think is the day that they aired right

00:45:01.540 so it's like oh typical tuesday yeah but what's interesting is he comes so much that there was

00:45:08.440 never going to be a point where dawn could come back from that yeah i think that i would have

00:45:13.520 preferred it'd be a one season role but i also think that they didn't anticipate um i would

00:45:23.940 have preferred they had dawn from season one if it was going to be a character have it for season

00:45:28.140 one and enter in season five because then there would have been an emotional weight with the

00:45:32.720 audience yes i don't think that i think they fucked up because i thought that people would 0.60

00:45:38.620 care like Buffy cared but not at all did not care no and like Stephen said I would be Dakota 0.87

00:45:46.880 Fanning throwing the baby into the fire like one look at Don's face and I would have like

00:45:51.160 right into the pavement palmed the forehead or I would have just been like goodbye yeah I pushed

00:45:59.240 that I pushed what's his face immediately off I could do the same thing twice and also again it's 0.96

00:46:04.000 just there's no joss had a single rule which was my main cast does not die which is so dumb because

00:46:12.100 again you're not building these characters you're just adding more kindling to the fire and then 0.89

00:46:17.520 you bring a character that nobody likes and expects everyone to give a crap when she dies

00:46:22.620 or if she doesn't but it just which made it even worse because then buffy's gone your character is 1.00

00:46:28.000 gone the whole point the reason of being here is gone because of who that whiny little girl that 0.93

00:46:32.940 no one give a shit about like that's the feeling of Joss Whedon in this this this story is he 0.85

00:46:39.900 created a character no one liked instead of working to make a character someone did like 0.97

00:46:44.440 that's what he was lazy fucking writing he did twice let's talk about it Michelle track I don't 0.83

00:46:51.380 know how to pronounce your last name Trachtenberg Trachtenberg she talks about that she infers it 0.98

00:46:55.920 anyways I mean I don't I don't know how many gigs she got after Buffy I don't know how much of a 0.99

00:47:00.640 working after she was. She went to Gossip Girl. She played Catherine Murtoy. She literally played 1.00

00:47:06.340 Sarah Marshall Gellar's famous role in Cruella Tensions. That's funny, right? Was she good?

00:47:12.160 I didn't watch Gossip Girl. She was fine. Okay. My point is she kept her mouth shut for a very

00:47:18.620 long time. And she kept her mouth shut because of who Josh was, I think. I think she kept her

00:47:24.520 mouth shut because you don't ever want to be the girl who... Look at how long it's taken for people

00:47:30.340 to complain about josh weed oh charisma carpenter was what like a couple decade or so because

00:47:35.940 it's insane right and you're protecting your again it all plays into the same narrative

00:47:41.720 you're protecting your image you're protecting your your ability to get work you're protecting

00:47:48.540 what people think we're talking about we're talking about exactly what it mimicked in the

00:47:56.440 show which is all of these young female actresses were only allowed to be who they were and achieve

00:48:04.380 the success that they did as long as men in power liked them and one of the active ways you get

00:48:11.900 liked is you shut up yeah whatever goes on you keep your mouth shut i don't know what roles

00:48:20.720 charisma's had since she's been talking about it now i know she's older so you know we do get 0.61

00:48:26.840 ignored quite a bit but it either has to be a floodgate scenario like the whole me too movement

00:48:33.520 or by rose mcgowan by uh whoever you know opens their mouth in that moment even if they're telling

00:48:43.200 the truth the only thing that's going to happen is bad producers and directors and guys with money

00:48:49.520 don't want you because it's obvious but the good ones they still don't want you because in the back

00:48:55.440 of their head they still think maybe possibly she was lying and that she could bring that energy to

00:49:02.640 my set and if i touch her back the wrong way or if i shake her hand the wrong way if i give her a

00:49:08.560 that was still and to me it still is i the me too movement didn't eradicate that or time's up i also

00:49:16.080 think that like it was sad because michelle trachtenberg isn't a bad actress she's no

00:49:20.640 certainly um she's had quite a bit of um success in the movies she had a euro trip she had um

00:49:29.360 a harriet the spy she was oh right right right that's where yeah um and like she's also did a

00:49:36.320 handful of episodes across like major television shows like house launder svu law and order i just 0.68

00:49:43.040 watch that episode yeah she's she's a very like i wouldn't say she's an amazing actress but she's

00:49:48.960 she's good she's very good i i enjoy her and she certainly embodies the characters that she

00:49:54.080 is acting in i think the failing of this character is the fact that she just didn't

00:49:58.920 have any direction in writing and also you're right she was young she was uh i think what

00:50:03.920 eight 17 18 when she got the role um and it was because of sarah marshall geller was like i think

00:50:09.400 you should hire this one um this this actress she's great i've worked with her before or she

00:50:15.440 was on my oh is that how that happened yeah interesting but i don't think they did enough 0.96

00:50:23.340 to protect her reputation because what i think people looked at was they watched on and they

00:50:29.920 were like oh that's just bad acting no it's also poor writing yep 100 i think that that's the

00:50:37.900 failing, I think that's the saddest part about actors and actresses in Hollywood is that

00:50:42.500 oftentimes when you have like shows of this caliber and you're given a character, people

00:50:47.280 associate that character with you and are like automatically turned off.

00:50:52.580 But unfortunately, all of actors get to hold the brunt of bad directing and bad writing

00:50:59.920 and they're the face of it.

00:51:01.820 And they will take on that burden for the rest of their careers.

00:51:07.900 listen i am astounded with like meryl streep meryl streep she did she double i love she

00:51:14.860 double i think it's a campy fun movie but people probably point to that sometimes ago meryl streep

00:51:19.420 she had her terrible time in the like early 90s oh my god it's just that she couldn't get any work

00:51:25.820 and the work that she did do wasn't great yeah everything she could with the material that she

00:51:30.620 had i often am astounded that anybody makes it out of george lucas's star wars never works again

00:51:37.900 there is a a really there's a really interesting it's like if you can survive being that guy and

00:51:45.720 being directed and told how to deliver your lines like liam neeson looks awful in the horrible the

00:51:53.400 dude's liam neeson but yeah put him under george lucas's tutelage and all of a sudden you're like

00:51:58.180 oh what why is he talking like that he's awful well i think i think we should all um there's the

00:52:05.000 article, The Undoing of Joss Whedon on Vulture

00:52:07.120 that I think we should all take a look at.

00:52:09.360 I'm fascinated to read more about it because

00:52:11.240 there's more allegations

00:52:12.960 on his misogynistic conduct

00:52:15.360 on the set.

00:52:17.500 But I think it's because of, it was

00:52:19.160 Ray Fisher and Gal Gadot that

00:52:20.900 sort of restarted it.

00:52:23.120 And then with that sort of momentum, that's when

00:52:25.100 Chris McCarpin just said, here's all the things that happened to me.

00:52:27.240 And then people from the set and

00:52:29.060 series started standing up with her from both shows.

00:52:31.440 And I found it very interesting

00:52:32.880 of the individuals that didn't.

00:52:35.000 I don't think David Boreanaz or Xander.

00:52:39.920 No, they didn't.

00:52:42.240 They did not. 0.89

00:52:42.900 And then you have like Amber Benson, Michelle Trattenburg, Sarah Michelle Gellar.

00:52:47.980 It's really interesting.

00:52:49.120 But we've been talking, we've talked about this before.

00:52:52.120 James Marson has been talking about this for a while.

00:52:56.580 Like the very first thing of him, like confronting him in the hallway saying, you're not going to ruin my show and this and that. 0.90

00:53:01.960 there was already a long history of joss whedon being a bully and then misogynistic and a creep

00:53:08.940 but we just sort of went like oh that's joss i'm really i'm i'm i can't wait to read that article

00:53:15.520 i'm very interested and um spike is always very careful when he talks about that um i've heard

00:53:21.940 him talk about it in person quite a few times because people you know at comic-con especially

00:53:26.580 when it was at the height that's just that's all the questions and his insistent line which again

00:53:32.900 i find uh frustrating it was a lot of the times i was on set and i did what i did josh was nowhere

00:53:43.640 to be found so i never had any firsthand experience that's what he kept saying i never saw it i never

00:53:51.640 had any firsthand experience but anthony's anthony head said the same thing i didn't see it yeah like

00:53:58.520 in a roundabout way you know what i mean meanwhile you have all these women you have all these women

00:54:04.920 lining up and saying like amber listen to amber benson you want to hear somebody go off

00:54:11.560 and she will do it and school you in the most articulate vernacular you could possibly think of

00:54:17.480 And it'll just put your head down and walk away.

00:54:20.100 But it's still like these men.

00:54:21.920 I haven't heard any of the men on from Buffy.

00:54:26.100 Not really.

00:54:27.060 Make a stand, you know, not one.

00:54:31.200 I haven't heard one.

00:54:32.880 And I, and I think sometimes it's, again, it's all about what work are we going to get?

00:54:37.160 And it's all about who are you going to protect?

00:54:40.020 And, and here's probably the catcher.

00:54:43.120 I think looking back on it and knowing bad things happened or knowing that it wasn't okay

00:54:51.800 and not doing anything, I think as a person, you want to pretend that I didn't see that.

00:55:00.360 I didn't know that was happening. I'm going to pretend as though I wasn't aware or I wasn't

00:55:07.060 there or i didn't hear it right or whatever because if i have to if i truly say

00:55:14.500 no i i saw the way she that the way he was with charisma i saw that like think about the

00:55:22.180 what is what is henry cavill cavill whatever his name is yep what does he say have you heard no

00:55:28.820 no or ben affleck or word one out of them what has ben affleck said nothing nothing are you

00:55:36.340 telling me did he say anything i think ben affleck uh has to really be careful what he gets involved

00:55:42.580 in right now considering ben affleck i think he has to worry about his own press issues yeah right

00:55:49.700 now this was a long time ago yeah but but i also think too like he has his own issues right now

00:55:58.260 that i think a problematic man talking about their problematic man would just call another

00:56:03.460 firestorm yeah um i do want to clarify anthony stewart uh had to say that i agree he did say

00:56:11.380 similar what you said he said i have been scanning my memories and i can't he's like i don't know how

00:56:17.460 i could have missed it yeah yeah it had come to me he gave validity to it but still said he didn't

00:56:22.580 see it yeah exactly and i think that is i would say like did james marster say anything about it

00:56:28.580 it he says it just like i described it he said it just as i described it really and i've heard him

00:56:39.820 say it in like in a comic-con room full of fans and i've heard him say it like in interviews and

00:56:46.880 stuff like that um but it's interesting you're saying it's a great point stew and again we go

00:56:53.360 right back to why i still say buffy being defined by men is still the feminist struggle that we

00:56:59.720 needed to see because you're saying problematic problematic men talking about problematic men

00:57:07.240 my problem is in the 90s were there others men wow thanks 58 well so actually i want to know in

00:57:18.000 the 90s where were the unproblematic men because we had a culture that said it was okay yep we had

00:57:25.060 a culture okay well james mars did say something so the tweet he put out was while i will always

00:57:35.180 be honored to have played the character spike the buffy set was not without challenges i did not

00:57:39.920 support i do not support abuse of any kind and i'm heartbroken to learn of the experience of

00:57:43.700 some of the cast i send my love and support that learn yeah also did michael rosenbaum's um yep

00:57:51.020 podcast and said quite a bit about his own experiences with joss whedon yes i listened

00:57:57.360 that a couple of months ago it was it's interesting but again there is what i will say and it's

00:58:03.260 something that i don't see from the women speaking out when it comes to the men um there seems to be

00:58:10.460 a little bit of uh reverence for joss whedon still sure that's um paired alongside their

00:58:18.140 either um lending their voices to the women who spoke out or giving their own feedback

00:58:26.860 of what they saw but it's always with the utmost respect for the creator or the person they're

00:58:34.380 speaking about and even though i don't think they mean to have it or at least i hope they don't

00:58:38.860 it there always comes across like yeah but like it still was an amazing show yeah but

00:58:44.900 yeah it sort of feels like they're saying like yes it's overtly terrible what happened and i

00:58:50.920 feel really bad but look with this great thing we still created together right yeah james margin

00:58:56.240 says that like that's probably a quote that could be a quote directly from his mouth the way he

00:59:02.120 speaks about it sometimes um all right well it's like i think that's the the major issue that most

00:59:09.840 of society has is that we can't separate the ends like the end like the end project

00:59:17.940 to justify the means like the amazingness of the issue the thing that you have

00:59:22.220 does not justify how someone got there or what people had to endure to produce that thing and i

00:59:30.220 think that's when you have to really really work to separate the thing like stefan said at the

00:59:36.760 beginning of this whole podcast separate the thing that you love versus what you the creators of it

00:59:45.020 the creators of it yeah because honestly i think i think that's a great way for us to sort of

00:59:52.820 to encapsulate season five is this idea that

00:59:58.900 while we're going through this if we don't figure out well this is true of all art it's not just

01:00:04.420 you know television it's not just true of anything else all art has meaning because

01:00:08.900 it means something to that person and it means different things to that person that doesn't

01:00:13.940 erratic that doesn't go away because of the injustices and the the horrific conditions

01:00:20.820 under which these characters did this incredible art that means so much to you those two are two

01:00:26.260 very separate things but the the key is i think we should be able to talk about them

01:00:33.060 in like at the same time and still have those one doesn't necessarily have to negate the other

01:00:41.460 do you know what i mean we don't we don't negate the impact of buffy the vampire slayer

01:00:46.660 But I'm sure as hell not giving Josh Wheaton any free passes because I really liked his freaking show.

01:00:54.140 No, that's not how it works.

01:00:56.260 In fact, I would use it if I was writing this course in university, and I often want to go to U of T just so I could take it.

01:01:03.040 But if I was writing this course, I would talk about the art imitating life, imitating art.

01:01:11.200 The idea that this heroine is created in the image of men and is constantly battling, being defined by the image of men, all the while existing in real life on that very patriarchal kind of controlling abusive set, I think is magic.

01:01:33.940 i'm like talk about that that is that is interesting and that adds another layer to

01:01:40.520 the analysis of the characters and the writing and all of that but to take it away is just negating

01:01:46.580 how much real life impacts the art we see right also watch soap dish because i love that movie

01:01:53.300 just about the behind the scenes of a soap opera i like it i like it all right guys can you give

01:02:01.360 me your favorite quote from season five and then we'll wrap up oh you have one um off the top of

01:02:09.260 your head uh the hardest thing to do in this world is so depressing uh glory you're really

01:02:17.580 not the brightest god in the heavens are you or i even like which willie says i will always find

01:02:26.080 you oh because they she uses that in once upon a time your love for once upon a time runs deep

01:02:34.400 mine's real real simple and i've all i've often wanted it on a shirt and i think i will do a

01:02:38.960 black on black truck i love that i also i love the shirt i got from you i wear it around the

01:02:50.800 house all the time oh fantastic guys can you tell everybody where to find you before we come back

01:02:57.840 next week and do season six and let's be honest season six is a lot of fun

01:03:01.920 season six of course it is you dark depressed it's my favorite favorite season it's my favorite

01:03:09.840 um where can we find you stuff you could find me at rebel without a closet rwac pod

01:03:16.160 on instagram you can also find us on facebook our patreon is also our w-a-c-p-o-d and you

01:03:21.680 can find me sjmaroni on instagram stuart and you can find me on tiktok at jenikin j-n-i-k-o-n

01:03:29.760 underscore where you can love me every single day and you can find me on instagram at the same

01:03:35.680 handle where you can follow my life and stories and all of my very strong political opinions

01:03:41.120 very strong that somehow sometimes need to be carefully worded

01:03:48.320 because one time i said f you and instagram took me down

01:03:54.720 whether our mount app with their full junk out and listen i called somebody i called somebody a

01:04:00.720 potato that's what i did that was the line i crossed i my the end said you potato and they 0.92

01:04:07.680 said this is not acceptable meanwhile i've just been naked on my like lives for the past like

01:04:13.360 three weeks exactly thank you so much for hanging out and for everybody who's listening watching

01:04:26.560 thank you for hanging out with us we will see you next week same bat time same bat station

01:04:31.680 dismissed

Unlearn16: Class is in Session - September 27, 2022

The One Where I Yell Out 'Truck'. Buffy Season 5 Part 2

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