Unlearn16: Class is in Session - The One We Get a Sister - Buffy Season 5 Part 1

00:00:00.000 classes in session hey welcome to unlearn 16 classes in session we have done it we have moved

00:00:08.920 past season four buffy into the glorious land ish of season five are you because comparatively

00:00:20.320 speaking this is narnia but like you know the dark side of narnia with all that christianity

00:00:27.940 underpinnings i thought you were making a joke about glory that would have been funnier i love

00:00:33.640 glory stephan hates glory no i hate glory i know oh sorry stew hates i'm indifferent every time i

00:00:40.160 say your name all i can think about is vampire diaries i think you're very off brand for this

00:00:44.320 podcast fair all i can think is vampire diaries next season for the longest time i used to just

00:00:50.740 refer to stefan as what are you it's true definitely it's true because like if you

00:00:58.760 actually listen to vampire diaries elena punctuates every sentence with stefan i hate him

00:01:05.360 i hate him stefan it's everything she only says his name it's like every time she has a finished

00:01:13.340 thought to stuff in it's awful look love that or like damon the only thing great about that show

00:01:21.100 is even to my people damon is beautiful so gorgeous go like just perfect the smile the eyes

00:01:30.680 stop it you got it i can't stand damon stop it at some point in like season one though i just

00:01:36.320 wanted to feed um the actor who plays stefan a sandwich because he was so so thin yeah and i was

00:01:45.080 like i know you're off human blood but you are still eating but also so was buffy season five

00:01:51.260 like oh i true sandwich please have a sandwich excellent segue excellent boys welcome back

00:01:58.580 season five are you excited we're done season four yay i am super excited oh i think the best

00:02:03.420 hear about season four is when they salted the earth and we never talked about it again there

00:02:06.940 we go ever ever so i just want to like mention that unfortunately this whole season starts

00:02:16.800 with count dracula oh yeah and we still have riley they didn't kill riley in the season finale

00:02:26.440 of season four he's still around and now we have dracula on top of it which is perhaps the worst

00:02:33.200 episode i've ever seen i disagree no one of my favorite lines out of buffy is i'm tired of being

00:02:41.220 everybody's butt monkey listen listen there's some gems coming out of that episode there's some gems

00:02:48.620 god it was just they end up using what did you want them to do it was dracula had to be campy

00:02:56.440 in this vein and i liked all the mythology what did you want it like did you never want them to

00:03:01.060 talk about dracula ever they end up using it with season eight like he's a huge part of season eight

00:03:07.820 just a heads up oh my god is he still around she staked him four times god that was funny i'm right

00:03:14.320 here yeah it was perfect you know what it was it was very funny it was exactly the kind of camp

00:03:22.300 and the kind of flair i honestly think josh might have wanted for the horrific buffy movie

00:03:28.460 it was the right kind of camp you know what i mean but without all the seriousness of the

00:03:34.140 characters up until that point i think the movie just you know even if they did it like that it

00:03:40.720 would have fallen short because it was like serious serious serious everything is awful

00:03:45.480 and all of a sudden you have this why do you hate it so much do is it your inner child

00:03:50.260 It's so funny.

00:03:50.820 Should we talk about it?

00:03:52.580 Did you have a bad Dracula experience when you were 12?

00:03:55.840 Speaking of children.

00:03:57.220 It's just, here's the thing, is the fact that, like, I really loved, I think it goes back to what we were talking about, like, two or three episodes ago, where we were talking about the kind of retconning of the vampire mythology within Buffy.

00:04:14.820 I'm sorry, I can't.

00:04:16.040 Did you say retconning?

00:04:17.700 Retconning.

00:04:18.180 stop it right now is anybody hearing you say reckoning reckoning stop cunning

00:04:26.620 as in like you go back and you retcon something

00:04:29.260 yeah but i don't think it's an awning i think it's just we're gonna retcon this

00:04:34.540 as in like r-e-t-c-o-n-n-i-n-g i just i don't think inning is a word

00:04:42.980 retconning to retconning it's a red card retconning i'm gonna need you around the present

00:04:52.600 participle of retconning don't say the word participle to me um we're gonna take a red

00:04:58.720 pen to this i love how i legitimately i'm like trying to give an opinion i'm sorry i got

00:05:03.700 lost it doesn't exist we're just gaslighting you for your you know the fact that you know

00:05:07.640 okay you liked it going whatever that word was okay never heard a word before well we can all

00:05:18.040 learn it together and use it in with friends and family okay what were you uh remembering

00:05:24.200 oh my god i feel judged i feel attacked i feel like a lot of things right now i've had a lot

00:05:31.960 of feelings um anyway i'll go back to my my broken point now okay i feel like it it really

00:05:39.400 it kind of went back to this idea of they're building the world as we as we are watching

00:05:47.080 the show and because of the in because of the holes that this like newness creates they had

00:05:52.920 to go back and like make spike he's like oh he owes me 20 and i'm like okay but like why wasn't

00:06:00.360 he mentioned in the beginning like the master for example yeah like he's the oldest vampire

00:06:06.040 and apparently can survive a staking to the chest but the master sure couldn't and the master left

00:06:11.240 alone like left like bones behind bones whereas like dracula vanishes into smoke and comes back

00:06:17.320 and it's like oh i'm still here um like it's ridiculous it's ridiculous but also like i did

00:06:24.840 I will say, I appreciated the, I appreciated Marty Noxon, who wrote this episode, her bringing

00:06:32.440 in some of Bram Stoker's Dracula, so Xander becomes a Rheinfeld character, or Rheinfeld

00:06:37.460 character, but, like, he never shows up again, other than season eight, which I, I apparently,

00:06:44.900 according to Seth, I'd have to, like, sit down and just, like, look at, so I know what

00:06:47.620 the fuck happened, and all the character development happened, because apparently it happened outside

00:06:52.620 of the actual show a lot of character development apparently happened there and then don't be 0.99

00:06:58.340 started on the fucking next episode where we know what's the next episode no it's called the real me 0.92

00:07:04.580 okay here's the thing so here's here i have i don't want to she shows up in the end of episode 0.93

00:07:11.040 one but i mom here's the thing it joss has some nerve to to to do this and i'm sorry like i 0.98

00:07:22.560 the whole fan base hates michelle trattenburg which is unfair she was an actress who did her

00:07:28.580 job what they should be hating is the writer room who thought you know what we're gonna do 1.00

00:07:32.580 because we're on a high because we can we're gonna bring in this little bitch and we're gonna make 1.00

00:07:37.260 her hate just everyone hate her it is so unfair because they did it not only to buffy but to 0.99

00:07:43.680 angel it was like oh it went so well the first time let's do it again one more time just fast

00:07:50.720 forward i i i just don't understand i don't know mindset to the depth of the mindset i think i would

00:07:59.680 have loved your idea from before about making xander the key i love all of that it makes the

00:08:04.500 most sense i think that was would have been a much better idea that would have tied everything

00:08:08.740 in beautifully um but okay we have to embrace it but do you guys remember watching episode one we

00:08:16.920 can't do anything about it boys maybe we can reckoning it it's not reckon let's just tabula

00:08:25.460 rasa this one oh god great episode do you guys remember seeing this in real time though this

00:08:33.520 episode yes i'm being so confused off the couch i stood up yeah and went what what and then do

00:08:42.360 remember it was like i believe it was like may so for those who aren't as old as as we happen to be

00:08:48.760 and don't remember tv when you had to wait for the next freaking episode but from what i remember

00:08:54.120 when this one aired there was also a may sweeps break like there was a break in there was this

00:09:00.460 episode airs all of a sudden buffy has a sister and then it seemed like an eternity of a break

00:09:07.600 and then they come back and the next few episodes we still don't acknowledge it like nobody deals

00:09:12.640 with it it's just nothing she has a sister yeah no and i'm like wait was it her was it from her

00:09:17.680 father like is this was was was she just living with her their dad like what is this it was so

00:09:25.100 confusing it was insane crazy um it was literally a week later it felt like a lifetime it was the

00:09:35.800 The first episode premiered on the 26th of September, and the next episode premiered on the October 3rd, but the issue was, and you're both right, they didn't actually write the reason why she was there, they made the episode about her from her perspective.

00:09:49.540 So you were, like, learning all about Dawn and how she feels about this gooey gang. 0.64

00:09:53.480 Like, as if she's been there the whole time. 0.99

00:09:56.120 I thought there was a break.

00:09:57.420 I thought there was a break.

00:09:58.340 There was no break.

00:09:59.000 I think it's just because of the fact that they don't actually explain what's going on until episode five.

00:10:03.160 and that's what the like that long stretch of time was yeah because you're like we've got

00:10:07.660 buffy and angel going on this is insane five weeks for those yeah yeah five weeks netflix time

00:10:13.940 that was five weeks a month a week where i didn't know so obviously that's what i've like wrapped 0.97

00:10:20.480 it into it's like i felt like it was just so incredibly long of having no idea who this damn

00:10:26.000 character was and why she was happened to be in my show messing everything up here's the reason

00:10:30.320 why you thought that because we had the real me which is don's perspective yeah then we had this

00:10:34.820 episode about xander called the replacement then you had out of my mind where riley is risking his

00:10:40.860 health to save buffy nobody cares and then you had finally finally you had the explanation over

00:10:47.900 finally you had three filler episodes garbage episode reason garbage what's with no one cares

00:10:53.680 about xander no one cares about riley better to not have garbage episodes and have little pieces

00:10:59.160 like little sprinkles because all of a sudden we found out everything about her in about 30 seconds

00:11:04.620 right that that one monk just divulges it all yeah yeah you should have been sprinkles but what

00:11:10.440 about that crazy person in the episode i think it was either episode two or three when they're

00:11:13.840 outside the magic shop a crazy person just walks up to her and starts talking to her and you're

00:11:18.060 like and then he's just yeah what does he say i can't remember the exact words but something

00:11:22.680 in the lines of glowing orb of light you're glowing or don't belong yeah yeah and then

00:11:27.200 he's just gone play on that did don do that did he disappear did he run away did he explode was

00:11:32.820 even there like there's no explanation car that's what it was don looked at him and he backed up

00:11:37.360 into traffic nice memory are you sure yeah thank you stephan i was sure i that was the issue because

00:11:46.200 in the beginning as she was walking through you were given this weird idea that she was the one

00:11:53.020 causing the problems the crazy people because they all were reacting to her and being remember the

00:11:57.980 hospital was full of people ben was working in the hospital new character ben no one understood

00:12:03.060 yeah um and then that man he backed up and got hit by a car or a bus or something like that

00:12:08.820 and because he went you don't belong you don't belong yeah and then tara comes up back out and

00:12:15.840 sits with her yeah but i i don't think he was hit by a car i think he was just gone i was hit by a

00:12:20.620 car that's the thing like there was something about it where there was no explanation as to

00:12:25.740 why who she was why she was there what was happening why everyone was acknowledging her

00:12:29.640 as if she was there the whole time and then this random person just be like you don't belong and

00:12:33.360 then he's just gone and that's what was infuriating because then you'll be like wait what is this

00:12:38.440 okay so we're gonna skip over the crappy episodes i don't think there's any need to do with um

00:12:43.560 the ones that he mentioned but then we roll into the monk

00:12:47.260 so you're right he really gives it all away he doesn't really hold tight right like he's not like

00:12:53.960 i'm really gonna hold on to these uh to these key words is it all the way and then so it kind of a

00:13:02.860 relief about the character i remember being like okay so she's not real okay i get that like she's

00:13:11.420 not a really she's not really your sister i didn't it's good but then what did you think

00:13:16.900 about the formation of that particular episode like did they do a good enough job then setting

00:13:23.160 because that was a story about dawn could we not make us like her gradually no no we had to hate

00:13:30.260 her immediately that was the problem like also like and i'm going to say this and i think i

00:13:34.560 said seven before as well is that i think the major reason why we all hated her was because 0.98

00:13:39.800 she played the most annoying character oh my god oh my god there was no redeeming quality about her

00:13:45.700 from the offset and for a show that's in this fifth season and we've grown to have quite strong

00:13:51.420 affections to all the characters and kind of grown up with them to have a random character thrown in

00:13:55.860 that upsets the balance of the show it's it's very very very hard to immediately in episode two with

00:14:03.740 no explanation of who she is like her and then not be instantly irritated about how annoying she is

00:14:12.060 but i think that stefan's right it was the writing of her character the writing of her character was

00:14:16.300 for a 14 year old girl yeah like she played her character perfectly but they wrote buffy as a 16

00:14:22.860 year old girl so it's just like you know how to write these characters you know how to write the

00:14:26.860 the vernacular and you understand like the school kind of of of camaraderie and and how to play on

00:14:34.140 the other characters but they just made her so unlikable so quickly and again it's just some

00:14:39.400 nerve to completely obliterate the canon of the past five seasons have you guys listened i haven't

00:14:48.040 listened to any extras any interviews anything how do they defend this i mean the writers have

00:14:54.200 to have been questioned people have to have come at them does do you guys know anything about this

00:14:59.060 about why they said that it was like always in his plan to get Buffy a sister like way back when

00:15:05.740 I have this really hard time believing this lore of Joss Whedon where he's so well planned out and

00:15:11.300 thought out and he planned all these things because all the other plot holes around like

00:15:15.600 you would he would be a lot more able to explain those right um very similar to like Stranger

00:15:21.680 things how the plot holes that you see are like wrapped up in season four because they had to

00:15:28.560 give gradual they were gradually getting there and they all made sense like that makes sense

00:15:33.400 but this this seemed like maybe he had a whim that he wanted to do this in the future

00:15:38.400 but i don't necessarily think that he is a strong enough episodic writer like aaron sorkin or

00:15:45.120 you know that he was able to keep that train of thought and keep the rest of the writers on that

00:15:50.560 track exactly why why when he's when you said he oh let's assume just for a hot minute he's

00:16:00.640 you know always wanted to give her sister why yeah oh i think he he wanted it to be what he

00:16:06.640 wanted was it to be something like made of buffy that she would have to defend and that she would 0.74

00:16:12.440 have to honestly decide whether or not she could sacrifice somebody else because she's always going 0.71

00:16:19.520 sacrifice herself she will always protect her she will always sacrifice herself for the world

00:16:24.360 or her friends but it threw into the balance someone that she loves and protects it's piece

00:16:29.860 of her that's her sister how could she do that she can't give up her sister so that's exactly

00:16:35.500 the problem because here's where they have a problem because that technically makes don her 0.97

00:16:39.060 daughter if you're making a piece of buffy that's not her sister that's her daughter and the problem 0.87

00:16:44.780 is that they just did that with angel you can't turn around and do the same plot twice so he kind 0.99

00:16:49.380 of shot himself in the foot which we talked about this oh my god right vincent carthes cartheser

00:16:54.500 i hear that character but but here's the thing we've talked about this he doesn't write he doesn't

00:16:59.580 write lore he doesn't create a world he creates in the moment he creates monsters of the week

00:17:04.720 so he didn't think that far ahead so i bet you anything he was fully intending on giving like

00:17:10.020 a very similar arc of like angel and buffy creating something because they end up spoiler

00:17:14.820 alert they do create an entire universe in season eight the whole point of season eight is that

00:17:21.320 angel and buffy actually come together and create an entire universe that has consequences because

00:17:25.520 they finally get together and have that perfect love and she is ascended and he is ascended and

00:17:29.960 they create an entire world where it's supposed to be like harmony for them spoiler alert that's a

00:17:34.920 lot if they both ascend are they giant snakes actually they end up giving birth to a like a

00:17:40.060 a weird tiger lion dragon thing and that's their son that ends up taking over angel and angel does

00:17:46.500 some terrible things but like but that's but that's the thing and that's that's joss whedon's

00:17:53.680 writing fun fact but that's the thing he doesn't create no he creates nonsense and and when you've

00:17:59.700 already got like stephan just explained like i still don't get it because you just explained

00:18:04.400 like buffy's always willing i think buffy as a character and i don't think anybody would argue

00:18:09.440 this would have given up her life for any one of those people in that show no you don't but she

00:18:17.840 did oh sorry do you think like buffy would do it for anybody yeah for all of her friends she would 0.64

00:18:23.580 have given if it was her mom if it was willow on the edge of that thing whatever she would have 0.51

00:18:29.860 done she would have because they were testing her ability to sacrifice herself and and he made up

00:18:35.820 this idea that she would only do that for something of her when i think that's bullcrap but it's but

00:18:41.720 she wouldn't do it in season seven it's innocence that's what he's talking about it's not so much

00:18:46.260 that like these people these friends of hers came into this willingly like she like they

00:18:51.220 they're of their own accord joined this band of like of evil fighters but what he was trying to

00:18:58.900 create was it of like he was trying to create like an innocence yeah you would never like it's very

00:19:04.860 much like the in horror films you don't kill children because they're innocent the children

00:19:10.360 are always spared so it's it's it hurts more it's she is protected by Buffy Buffy but like the

00:19:18.900 problem was is again to have that buy-in you need to have the audience care about the character

00:19:25.400 there needs to be enough of the stakes for the audience to be split down the middle to be like

00:19:32.440 yes Buffy has to save her and the rest of us to be like no let her die but the entire fandom was 0.77

00:19:40.420 like throw her off the tower yeah get rid of her goodbye like you're like oh Buffy you can toss her

00:19:45.840 like a football just toss her out when like when um when Doc um was there and he was like Joel

00:19:56.840 gray when he was there and he was like what the hell was he about shallow cuts shallow cuts i was

00:20:02.220 like stop her take her out just push her off like i also want to know how does spike get bested by

00:20:11.000 that guy oh my god why is he even there also like i just love when it comes to this point

00:20:17.680 that spike is like what a thousand years old or something like that that he has killed two slayers 0.99

00:20:24.180 and the fucking reptile man 1.00

00:20:26.460 he can't defend himself over 1.00

00:20:28.800 he's thrown off the tower

00:20:31.320 not a

00:20:32.140 scratches and bruises all over his face

00:20:34.780 Buffy swan dies off the tower

00:20:36.700 and she's totally fine

00:20:38.140 not a scrape, not a bruise

00:20:40.460 that's because she goes through what seems to be hell

00:20:43.100 my assumption 1.00

00:20:44.740 was that Willow like dropped her

00:20:46.800 slow, like saw her

00:20:48.100 no Willow wasn't

00:20:50.420 but like I had a feeling Willow like

00:20:52.600 Okay, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

00:20:54.800 Feather falling, feather falling.

00:20:56.420 What episode we're on right now that I think is my favorite episode of the season is Family.

00:21:00.660 It might be one of my favorite.

00:21:01.880 I forget this episode when people ask me my favorite.

00:21:05.420 I constantly go to a couple, but I forget this episode and how incredibly poignant it is on so many levels.

00:21:11.500 Yeah.

00:21:11.920 I love it.

00:21:13.040 Because this is essentially the whole idea that Joss had for this season.

00:21:15.900 He's like, we discovered freedom in season four with everyone disappearing and literally Joyce just not being in the season.

00:21:21.840 everyone trying to find their way and then in season five he's like it's all about family

00:21:25.600 all about it like bringing whether we we lose characters or we gain characters or we we under

00:21:31.780 like the definition of he's like the whole point was that we're supposed to talk about family i

00:21:35.540 think that is a cop-out but i do agree that this episode with tara is probably one of the best

00:21:39.820 ones of the series if not the season like for sure it's perfect on all of the sociological levels

00:21:45.440 When I when I can talk and I do this often when I teach society, I can talk about Buffy and I can almost speak to every single issue in that course curriculum based from something.

00:21:58.140 And that episode covers at least five topics. Yeah, impressive, you know, funny at times, heartfelt episode that really touches on a lot of those aspects.

00:22:11.560 And not just because they're, you know, obviously the gay innuendos, but because of everything else that goes along with education and women's empowerment. 0.71

00:22:21.680 How dare you get smarter or more aware or more powerful? 0.98

00:22:26.180 Because that's what it was all about. 1.00

00:22:27.520 It's all about controlling women's power. 1.00

00:22:29.620 And the whole series comes down to that episode, really. 0.95

00:22:33.420 Well, and they must have known that they wanted to do this with Tara's character.

00:22:36.340 Because if you remember in season four, she sabotages the spell to find demons.

00:22:41.560 because she thinks in that moment that she is a demon yeah yeah yeah what was that episode

00:22:46.700 uh that was um uh goodbye iowa oh right right yeah it's the one where they're trying to find

00:22:54.000 adam for the first time right right so good so good i just literally just watched that episode

00:22:59.240 but the other thing i want to say too and i think i want to just jump ahead a little bit

00:23:03.880 because the rest of them are like we learn about the extraterrestrial apparently the

00:23:08.920 like the glory has that magic like prosthetic snake but i think the episode checkpoint

00:23:13.080 the watcher's council kind of re-emerges and i think it was one of the most disappointing

00:23:18.440 episodes that i have ever that i've watched with such a a institutional part of a show

00:23:29.760 that it was so it's handled so poorly like you have quentin tra uh trap tavers quentin tavers

00:23:35.840 Travers or Tavers?

00:23:38.100 I thought it was Tavers.

00:23:39.780 Quentin Travers comes back with the

00:23:42.180 rest of the Watcher's

00:23:44.380 Council to sort of impart

00:23:46.260 this wisdom on Buffy where 0.97

00:23:48.140 they reveal that Glory is a god.

00:23:50.520 But like

00:23:50.860 I just

00:23:53.380 it just seemed

00:23:56.460 like once again

00:23:58.480 I didn't

00:24:00.340 understand

00:24:01.820 what they're looking for. Because

00:24:04.200 she leaves the watchers council after uh they experiment experiment on her and giles is fired

00:24:10.180 and she's like i'm a rogue slayer i'm on my own yeah then they come back and they're like we're

00:24:16.300 not going to give you the information until you prove us prove to us that you're worthy of the

00:24:21.240 information that we have when if you think about it they are also facing the end of the world if

00:24:29.620 glory opens the portal. So I really don't understand. Also in season seven, you learn

00:24:34.680 they have a bunch of covens that work for them and all of these magical beings and all of these

00:24:39.360 things. And from what Stefan's told me, they're, they're a little bit, um, more like deep and in

00:24:45.580 depth in the eight, the season eight, but like, it just seems like it could have been more of an

00:24:51.500 arc. Like there could have been more there. We just described three episodes, three full episodes

00:24:57.420 that had no need to be in it whatsoever you couldn't have gone into any of that no you couldn't

00:25:02.060 have gone into of course you couldn't because he didn't imagine it yet that's the bottom line

00:25:07.820 have any ideas about it but it's interesting and i and then we'll go back because when you say

00:25:14.300 you know why would they try to withhold and i always think of everything on a bigger picture

00:25:18.540 now am i giving the the uh the him a little too much credit probably but i like the image anyways

00:25:25.420 I always am thinking on the level of sort of a sociological level where men want to control something and they want to control it so badly that they will die if they can't control it.

00:25:40.980 That's the option. If the option is we regain our control or screw all of you, we're all going down, they choose the latter. 0.50

00:25:50.680 In real life, men choose the latter.

00:25:55.420 We go into war, we create atomic weapons, we do horrific things to each other, all in the hunt for the control.

00:26:04.860 And if we don't have the control, I'm pressing the button.

00:26:08.260 And that's how I see the Watcher's Council.

00:26:11.160 I truly see them as this right below the shadow man, right?

00:26:15.020 If we don't have control, then forget it.

00:26:18.960 To the hell in which we go?

00:26:20.740 We can say the same thing about the initiative, where they're just like, burn it to the ground, salt the earth, we're done.

00:26:24.720 birds there we go if i can't control it we can all go to hell i'm fine with that and i think

00:26:30.960 we see that plot again and again and again throughout all of buffy but i think that the

00:26:37.680 major disappointment of this episode is that they reveal that she's a god but how did she get here

00:26:43.600 why is she born into ben's character why is she not how long has she been here how long has she

00:26:50.800 been on earth how long has she been here that's a better question because you have illyria for

00:26:54.800 example an angel which again is a god but illyria is is caught in the sarcophagus and she opens it

00:27:01.760 up they explain that once fred ingests it that illyria her body is being turned into a shell

00:27:08.640 yeah into a shell and illyria will take over her body but there's never a conversation why

00:27:14.720 ben and glory are the same person how long have they been the same person why are they sharing

00:27:19.600 the same consciousness no no why is it now that do they they do in some degree because they explain

00:27:26.880 the battle that ex that happened in the hell dimension and it doesn't matter it could have

00:27:31.520 happened whenever in the hell dimension but she was she was thrown here now but she was

00:27:38.640 she was born inside ben ben and she's born inside they say that that is her punishment

00:27:45.360 that she will share a body that that's the way they banished her and they keep her tied to earth

00:27:50.880 well because the idea was that she would die with him like she would just essentially watch 0.95

00:27:55.440 him from behind his eyes and then die inside his system she came out she could release herself yeah

00:28:03.200 yeah when but it's just it's crazy i don't know what episode but i do remember the the description

00:28:08.960 of the hell dimension i do remember the battle she was so out of control it kind of reminds me

00:28:13.520 of to be honest it kind of reminds me of thor's sister and that story oh hello right a similar

00:28:21.200 kind of storyline and then they banish her rather than banishing her the way they did in that

00:28:26.160 storyline they encase her in ben and she figures out a way to free herself from ben in part time

00:28:34.480 yeah you know what i wish glory was and i i don't know hate to clear anyone i really didn't like

00:28:40.560 that character anyway i really didn't like claire claim a kramer i really thought that

00:28:44.960 she wasn't a character did anybody ever remember zina the warrior princess remember zina the

00:28:51.520 warrior princess remember calisto oh my god she would have been amazing she's too old but no i

00:28:57.520 was saying like i wish the character was more like that where she was like yeah yeah very dark

00:29:04.240 yeah i feel like when like drusilla like yeah when um the calisto calisto yeah i feel like when

00:29:14.260 it came to playing this character i think my personal opinions i would have wished she went

00:29:23.040 more toward the like the dark evil than she did to the cheap laugh yeah it was just a valley girl

00:29:29.200 I don't think she had the same. 0.64

00:29:30.600 I don't think she had the comedic chops for it.

00:29:32.360 No, it was, the character was so oddly made.

00:29:35.100 Poor Kramer, if you're listening right now,

00:29:36.940 I don't know who these men are.

00:29:38.460 I don't know who they are on my,

00:29:40.140 I would love to have you on my podcast.

00:29:42.460 I think she was hysterical.

00:29:45.760 I think the play about that is genius.

00:29:49.820 Here's why.

00:29:51.260 Because I think it was a play on femininity and archetypes 1.00

00:29:56.560 rather than just getting the cheap laugh. 1.00

00:29:59.520 I think it was a play on that kind of stereotype 1.00

00:30:09.340 and then playing it off Buffy, 0.62

00:30:12.460 who never was, who always kind of had a bit of stereotype 0.77

00:30:15.460 but always got away from it.

00:30:17.620 But we had that.

00:30:18.380 We had Harmony.

00:30:19.400 We already had her. 1.00

00:30:20.580 Yeah, but Harmony was useless. 0.86

00:30:22.620 Well, 100%. 1.00

00:30:23.220 This woman's a god.

00:30:24.480 but that character is very like that style so i don't think claire kramer is a bad actress per

00:30:29.680 se i think that they just didn't give her a proper like what is my character's arc what is my

00:30:34.920 character's like personality who am i am i just supposed to be that blonde kind of like unhinged 0.92

00:30:40.760 bitch like what what am i i think that they could have i think stewart's right in the sense that 0.94

00:30:45.720 if we had a little more of like the craziness of drusilla but the but the calculations of like 0.99

00:30:51.200 darla and put them together it would have been a much better character and add that valley girl

00:30:55.860 sort of flair to it but it was just there was something that kind of ran flat with her and it

00:31:02.200 just didn't work yeah but again i think this is why josh that's just bad writing but i i think

00:31:08.660 this is the issue that i have stephan nailed it on the head is the fact that if she is like

00:31:13.120 thousands of years old a god from a hell dimension she's been living in this this body of ben she's

00:31:20.400 been imprisoned by him it should be alleria that mother is she a valley girl yeah like how it should 0.87

00:31:28.380 be alleria it should 100 just be another version of we've seen with duhoffrin is it duhoffrin

00:31:34.060 that's yeah it's someone like that like there's there's this level of poise when you're supposed 0.79

00:31:39.920 to be this grandeur like holier than our god and she's just like flip flip ditzy dance like what

00:31:46.580 are you talking about maybe that was also playing on the fact that she was in ben like let's assume

00:31:54.140 that she wasn't she was in ben his whole life and let's assume that she just started emerging when

00:32:00.480 he was like however old he is when we meet him oh like a manifestation of his personality maybe

00:32:05.260 she was trapped in there and was driven a little bit crazy and driven and we're adding a hell of

00:32:10.300 lot of subtext but that he didn't that joss didn't it's a thing trying to justify these characters

00:32:17.160 talking about nothing because he didn't want to write them write a storyline that day but you

00:32:22.020 know what okay okay sorry sir god you're going i i just i want to like i want to step back from

00:32:28.520 glory for just a second because we're missing one really key episode but if you want to just 0.93

00:32:32.100 finish up no no no which one are we missing fool for love i love that when he the when um fool for 0.82

00:32:38.640 love when he goes back is that what you're talking about yes it's a hundred percent full for love 0.81

00:32:41.980 because we have we have drusilla we have darla we have angel it is such a phenomenal episode i love

00:32:48.420 that episode oh and stewart's having a reaction are you sure you like buffy the vampire slayer

00:32:54.100 one of the most iconic scenes from that entire season was when he was in the street the subway

00:33:01.640 car with nikki wood so phenomenal oh sorry yes i like this one i'm confusing with the episode from

00:33:10.920 season four which i hated i'm thinking about season four no the one was gone yeah in the

00:33:15.720 season where they're all walking separately oh no oh my god that's sorry i confused it with that

00:33:21.240 one this one i like yeah oh that's lovers walk yeah lovers walk i hate that episode it's great

00:33:27.160 how they bring nicky wood and her kid later that that whole thing is good as well yeah but it also

00:33:32.840 really good art and and just so good culture i think they should have done that more i honestly

00:33:38.680 do yeah to taking that jacket the the billy idol thing stealing his look i love all of that there

00:33:46.440 should have been a little bit more of a play on that like considering you lived through all of it

00:33:51.960 you're telling me you never met anybody cool we can't we can't have any sort of other pop culture

00:33:56.840 references when you've been around for 200 years is angel or 100 and whatever is spike and again

00:34:01.800 just and just such a phenomenal way to like tie because it was a two episode arc for both buffy

00:34:07.240 and angel that kind of went into one another and it was so well done because you're seeing two

00:34:11.640 perspectives you're seeing spike's perspective in the moment and you're seeing angel's perspective

00:34:15.240 in the exact same moment and you're getting this story it was such a great way because this is the 0.97

00:34:19.800 last season that that buffy was on the wb so they still got to play with that stuff without having 0.60

00:34:24.680 to do with contracts that was so well done and i just i love the background of spike and you're not 0.78

00:34:32.120 william the bloody because you're you know evil you're william the bloody because you're

00:34:36.760 god-awful poetry and you were a mama's boy and you were just soft and it was a real story if 0.93

00:34:42.040 he was drusilla that sired him and it was like and then the vulnerability of buffy being like 0.90

00:34:47.320 it's because she wanted to die it's like finally she just said i'm tired then talking about the 0.53

00:34:51.880 the other slayers and she didn't have friends so it was such an excellent excellent episode

00:34:56.840 fool for love absolutely one of my favorite episodes very very very well done and you it's

00:35:02.480 not only that you because you always like spike but it's not only that you like spike but you know

00:35:07.960 you get these intricacies of who he was and what he's driven by and why he's driven even though

00:35:14.160 a bad you know he's still a bad guy you you can accept that he is sort of this amazing authentic

00:35:22.720 being that has very simplistic drives very specific you know goals very specific all of

00:35:28.640 that and he just goes for it stew what you don't think you'll like him who like who spike you're

00:35:34.640 going no but like this was so great because here's okay here's why okay and we're starting to get

00:35:42.000 these these like dark undertones and i don't understand why we like spike is always a murderer

00:35:48.560 and he's always something like loves chaos but we get the beginnings of some really problematic

00:35:55.920 storylines when it comes to spike that moves into um rape culture i really don't like the episode i

00:36:03.840 was made to love you the entire episode no that's a terrible heebie jeebies yeah it's creepy which

00:36:09.520 Which is like when he creates, when Warren creates like the sex bot.

00:36:13.980 Well, that's great later.

00:36:14.840 And then also like Spike makes the Buffy bot as well, 0.91

00:36:20.260 which is basically just an overgrown sex doll or sex robot. 0.97

00:36:24.380 Buffy's acceptance of that doll is terrifying. 0.99

00:36:27.360 Everybody is.

00:36:28.880 Yeah, sorry.

00:36:30.620 It's also just like, if you think about it and actually like take it out

00:36:35.840 and and really focus on it he has created warren an anatomically correct robot for the purposes of

00:36:46.860 just having sex and like stephan's right the everyone's reaction to it is like it's beyond

00:36:55.020 someone had created a sex hall for about me and it was like full me and it was just like a living

00:37:00.960 thing that like walked around and people interacted with i think i would die i would be mortified

00:37:06.400 guys you're you're saying this like it's so separate from the culture we live in it's not

00:37:13.720 but i think it's not but i think that of how far people will go remember that do you guys ever see

00:37:19.580 that um uh black mirror yeah yes yeah which one right it's kind of winding his head no where

00:37:29.520 where it's like they've created like robots oh i don't remember that one it reminds me so much

00:37:36.400 of this episode but i don't think like you don't like it because it gets dark i kind of like it

00:37:41.600 because it gets dark because it's a reflection but it's scary it's not like it's it should be scary

00:37:47.040 yeah but you're right like i think you're both right there's there's a difference between like

00:37:52.560 like, weird and endearing. Like, you have movies like Lars and the Real Girl, which you watch and

00:38:00.360 you realize it's about a very lonely man who buys a sex doll and makes it his girlfriend and everyone

00:38:06.620 sort of appreciates that and accepts this doll into their life and talks to it and all these

00:38:13.000 things because he's so lonely and awkward that people just want to make him feel normal. He

00:38:18.260 wants to have that connection but this this is something so more like much more perverse in the

00:38:25.020 way that it is because not only does it cover like the murder of his girlfriend of warren's

00:38:31.660 girlfriend it also covers the fact that he like built this doll to fulfill a need um to be

00:38:38.900 subservient which i understand it's a good relation to real life but then like it's also

00:38:45.340 about somebody else creating a doll based on someone that he knows sure to do it but i think

00:38:56.940 that my that's creepy in itself what's creepier to me is all of her friends being like it'll gross

00:39:03.260 but also like it's sort of funny that's the creepiest part i would hope that my friends

00:39:10.940 would be like what but honestly i don't jail as a as a woman though you like there's a couple of

00:39:18.500 truths very strong truths couple things number one you're talking about a guy protecting himself

00:39:26.480 and then creating something to protect horrible things he did and something he can just control

00:39:31.480 you're describing the shadow man instead of creating a sex doll they created an actual

00:39:40.120 entity that would protect them and do their bidding forever it is no different it's still

00:39:45.500 about controlling women and guys i hate to tell you this but if somebody said like i've known

00:39:52.600 i don't know a lot of those kind of guys but we all know they exist i see them mostly on tiktok

00:39:57.520 if uh if some of them were to do that it wouldn't shock surprise nor anything else i would be like

00:40:07.840 nope that makes perfect sense nope you are that bent and and women are supposed to take it 1.00

00:40:14.960 like it's no big deal we've been trained to get slapped on the ass in a bar to get groped to get 1.00

00:40:23.140 grind it on and then to walk away with a smile on her face and a cute little giggle 0.99

00:40:27.740 that was the 90s yeah you got i'm telling you that was that was it even now even now i know 1.00

00:40:36.820 young women who go to bars and face that kind of whatever and they're not supposed to call them on 0.73

00:40:45.240 it in a real way right you're supposed to don't do that walk away otherwise you're a witch otherwise 0.70

00:40:52.200 you're a whatever those guys don't get kicked out of the bars those guys don't they all should have 1.00

00:40:57.000 assault charges but we're taught to let it go let it go let it go and as stupid as the sex doll 1.00

00:41:03.160 sounds it's just another it's yet another level of let it go yeah it's just i don't know that way i 0.98

00:41:11.080 have a really hard time with a storyline like that especially when it it's such a long-standing

00:41:20.360 character flaw like it was never really discussed but warren is a sex offender like

00:41:28.040 after his girlfriend leaves him because she discovers his like sex robot 0.70

00:41:31.640 and he lives a sex robot like her battery's run out like he uses a cerebral dampener on 0.98

00:41:36.520 her in season six to create her make her a sex slave of her own and then when she 0.98

00:41:41.720 comes out of it for a brief moment he accidentally kills her and like we're all supposed to be like 0.99

00:41:47.480 oh cool the sex tall is still running around disguised as buffy what's even grosser is the

00:41:53.880 fact that the boys don't really understand well we're driving to season six but they don't even

00:41:57.800 understand what's happening until she explains it to them she's like this isn't fun or fantasy

00:42:02.520 it's rape and they're like what they're confused which is even worse i don't want to go into six

00:42:07.560 i don't want to go into six too much because i really i as much as i hate the trio i really

00:42:11.800 there's elements of it i really like yeah but i think when you're looking at you're looking at

00:42:17.880 spike this character progression after seeing somebody who honored drusilla throughout why

00:42:23.940 does why is buffy different and drusilla he didn't make a sex doll of why does it have to be the

00:42:30.020 herod of the show why doesn't it be any character in the show why wouldn't he just have warren

00:42:34.880 create a completely different a doll because at some point i'll tell you because at some point

00:42:41.500 even though drusilla left him she was also subservient to him at some point he had that

00:42:47.540 control and when she left him he got a new obsession and i'm telling you right now it seems

00:42:55.600 to me that to be honest one of who i think warren is a reflection of it's not gonna be pretty

00:43:01.560 You know, because I honestly think that kind of narcissism, that kind of insecurity, that kind of sadistic drive, especially when it comes to misogynistic underpinnings, is unfortunately, as we see everybody get banned off, you know, social media as of late, is a reflection of you got to have the alpha male.

00:43:27.940 You got to have her sitting in her place.

00:43:29.960 You got to have her number tattooed on her forehead about, because I'm the man.

00:43:34.880 And if you don't listen to me, then, and instead of magic balls or whatever the frig he has,

00:43:40.360 and don't think that's not a euphemism, in the real world, what do they have?

00:43:45.840 Boatloads of money.

00:43:47.140 Yeah. 1.00

00:43:47.800 You might as well have a pair of magical balls, you emasculated losers. 1.00

00:43:54.040 Yeah. 1.00

00:43:54.240 That's what they do.

00:43:55.040 and so i feel like even now it's such a good reflection you know what you guys don't want

00:44:01.040 to talk about the alien from outer space who was on crack when they wrote that one literally boat

00:44:07.280 loads of what is he what do you call it stephan boat loads of cocaine on an oak desk and just

00:44:12.080 when it's a desk on solid oak they just slap down the coke and like trough time we have all of this

00:44:18.720 amazing we have glory of god we have a brand new character we have and we we have the most 0.93

00:44:26.200 ridiculous pathetic thing i've ever seen in my entire life it was the worst the worst episode 0.85

00:44:33.140 even out of season four it's the worst episode wait the only thing you hope is that that's 0.99

00:44:40.320 what's going to kill what's-her-face i just again for a man who was praised for his for being a

00:44:49.300 feminist in his feminist writing and and of the times and this and that again there are some

00:44:53.620 things that i'm you look back on with 2022 lenses and think wow the things you got away with and

00:45:00.400 the the culture you added to like it doesn't make any sense because you're right like it just

00:45:06.480 the like the spike and the the talks of masculinity the spike and the rape culture involved in that

00:45:14.600 and then it's just nope it doesn't make any sense but also to like like it's not it's just

00:45:22.640 it's that it's building in this like beginning of this like kind of darker this darker

00:45:29.320 monster

00:45:31.400 very problematic storyline

00:45:34.500 within Spike

00:45:35.200 they could have done it differently

00:45:36.880 where like

00:45:38.000 he needed control

00:45:39.940 he could have taken it

00:45:41.100 some other place

00:45:41.980 they could have made it

00:45:43.220 go back to season

00:45:44.160 like four for example

00:45:45.600 where he's trying to one-up her

00:45:47.600 and I understand the need

00:45:49.280 for his character to remain relevant

00:45:50.660 and go through changes

00:45:51.760 but I think that level of change

00:45:54.300 and that betrayal

00:45:56.560 over the somewhat

00:45:59.000 what Boyle and loving character in his own darker way was,

00:46:05.760 I think it became a little bit too far away for people to relate to him.

00:46:12.360 But then also you have,

00:46:13.640 they kind of do it worse because they have the sex spot. 0.97

00:46:17.660 They re like formatted it for the season six premiere. 0.99

00:46:21.300 So she's like,

00:46:21.800 Buffy never died and she's kind of going around and you have these

00:46:25.120 illusions or this kind of like throwaway lines where they try to kind of

00:46:28.960 like take that programming out of her but then you also have the fact that then they write in that

00:46:36.020 spike can hurt buffy and can like abuse her and like fight with her because she's not like

00:46:42.940 everybody else because she came to lead up to this sort of very toxic very abusive relationship 1.00

00:46:49.780 only for this attempted rape scene and then then we come back in season seven and we expect her to

00:46:56.680 forgive all so i feel like like this storyline somewhere along the line especially for a strong 0.97

00:47:03.780 episode like um fools block fools for love like you don't have that you never see that i mean 0.96

00:47:14.360 a thousand years of like flashbacks of him asserting dominance over somebody using that 0.98

00:47:20.320 yeah and what's even have an issue with it but what's even weirder no but it's even 0.72

00:47:25.760 weirder is that buffy is now using him as like her best defense and what i found so bizarre is 0.78

00:47:32.180 that when she finds out that spike is is not telling glory who don is and not like letting 0.96

00:47:38.900 like glory know all this other stuff and getting this ass handed to him she makes out with him 0.95

00:47:43.420 she gives him like a kiss and she because when she's under the guise of i'm the robot 0.89

00:47:47.440 she goes up to him when he realizes that now you're talking yeah yeah you're still in season

00:47:51.960 five when she's like i'll go tell her and he's like no we can't tell her this not i don't give 0.98

00:47:56.280 a crap like what he will or won't tell just kill spike because you have this five-year arc with him 0.98

00:48:03.720 four-year arc with him where he is your mortal enemy and there is just some there are some 0.99

00:48:10.200 choices made on buffy's side in season five when it comes to spike that make no sense for her

00:48:16.120 character in any way especially and and what was what stewart saying is going from six and seven

00:48:21.960 It doesn't make any sense.

00:48:23.240 When people are like, are you Angel or Buffy or Spike and Buffy?

00:48:25.620 I'm like, I cannot understand why people want Spike and Buffy together.

00:48:30.060 It makes no sense.

00:48:31.240 It's a toxic, terrible relationship that is completely about abuse.

00:48:35.620 Well, they both 100%.

00:48:36.600 But at least with Angel, there was a connection there from the start with Spike.

00:48:42.200 It's like, that's your enemy, enemy, enemy, enemy, enemy. 1.00

00:48:44.620 Fuck friend, enemy, enemy. 1.00

00:48:45.620 Up until him getting a soul, it makes zero sense for them to have a connection. 1.00

00:48:51.040 Zero.

00:48:51.960 and i just i never understood that okay we can talk about we can talk about everybody's

00:48:56.840 personal damage i think it's also the uh the notion all of those um sad notions of

00:49:04.920 if you love him enough he'll change or if you're the right person he'll change for you

00:49:12.600 it's all that for look beauty and the beast i was just like reminiscing about a lot of those old

00:49:18.600 uh disney movies obviously because everybody's losing their mind because there's a black mermaid

00:49:23.180 um it's a black uh never mind but i was i was thinking about beauty and the beast and the

00:49:30.480 lesson it teaches and think about that and and think about those are the those are the arcs that

00:49:37.820 we're used to because the only thing that's going to make a man good better better himself

00:49:47.420 is going to be loving the right woman, woman who still waits and forgives him when he comes to that

00:49:53.820 point. That's guys, that's, that's just, that's still urban legend in our culture. That is still,

00:50:01.900 that is still how so many, I mean, teaching high school and listening to some of the girls talk

00:50:08.560 about their, you know, even though I tell them, I want to know nothing you go, Oh God, it's like

00:50:14.080 you change your outfits you change your hairstyle you change all that stuff but it's still the same

00:50:21.100 problematic horrifically toxic relationship dynamics that kids still need to go through

00:50:27.700 hopefully eventually to learn something but this is no different you know also why is everyone so 0.94

00:50:34.460 up in arms like the blue fairy is also black like no one's saying any word about that yeah

00:50:39.320 my desire to care about Ariel

00:50:45.080 Ursula's purple guys

00:50:47.120 Ursula's purple 1.00

00:50:47.920 so if I don't see a purple woman I'm just going to lose my mind 1.00

00:50:51.180 what are you nuts 1.00

00:50:52.120 that's a very important point 1.00

00:50:54.160 but like I don't give a shit 0.96

00:50:57.020 who plays Ariel the rest of these people 1.00

00:50:58.760 are racist garbage 1.00

00:50:59.880 if Melissa McCarthy 1.00

00:51:02.320 fucks up Ursula I will set 1.00

00:51:04.680 the theater on fire 1.00

00:51:06.240 if she fucks up my favorite song 1.00

00:51:08.440 it's over i'm like pouring gas all over the fucking theater and walking out 0.99

00:51:13.320 before we have a hard out we have to have a hard out because you guys got places to meet tonight 0.98

00:51:18.340 we're gonna have part two coming up next week before we have a hard out we're gonna go see

00:51:23.120 this movie together because for the love of god if she does mess up this song i want to be there

00:51:27.580 with my video camera put it on tiktok so you can't go see little mermaid without me

00:51:32.820 all right all right guys thank you so much for hanging out uh where can everybody find you real

00:51:40.120 quick before we call it a night are we gonna do part two of season five we have to do much more

00:51:46.680 to talk about we have to yeah we haven't been having a time with the end yet but uh you can

00:51:51.780 bring me 14 episodes i know you can find me at uh jennican j-n-i-k-o-n underscore on tiktok

00:52:00.600 laugh with me all you'd like laugh at me if you want to um and you also can follow my life in

00:52:07.700 pictures um and my wig journey on instagram at underscore also yesterday was stefan's birthday

00:52:17.200 oh happy birthday he's a 10 ready to yep there is a portrait melting in a safe somewhere

00:52:24.080 if you want to follow my melting portraits you could follow me at sj maroney on instagram and

00:52:31.480 you can also follow rwac pod that's rebel without a closet on instagram on all your podcast platforms

00:52:38.300 and you can support us on patreon fantastic and you guys know where you can find me and we will

00:52:45.120 see you next week same bat time same bat station for part two season five buffy the vampire slayer

00:52:53.860 Have a good night, guys.

00:52:55.600 Dismissed.

Unlearn16: Class is in Session - September 20, 2022

The One We Get a Sister - Buffy Season 5 Part 1

Episode Stats

Transcript