00:28:46.440And with the Hays Code, it essentially said, here are the rules for decency. You have to abide by them because movies were getting very raunchy back then. And one of them was sexuality, the male white slavery was something they couldn't show, which I thought was interesting. And then what was the word, what the word they used?
00:29:06.000um uh sodomy and something else and so essentially he was saying um that homosexuals could not be in0.65
00:29:14.640main characters or within film so what they did instead because writers people who check the0.86
00:29:21.040films aren't that smart so writers and editors would just very delicately lace queer characters
00:29:28.640within film they would like a movie about a um a writer coming up uh dealing with his sexual his0.60
00:29:36.760sexuality turns into a movie about a writer with um writer's block or um a movie about um two gay
00:29:44.360uh killers like hitchcock would make a movie about two gay killers but couldn't outright just say it
00:29:48.460so they had just very specific tendencies and it was a fascinating documentary um just showcasing
00:29:54.860us essentially being either the villain or the victim for so long until about the mid-90s where
00:30:02.060they finally allowed us to shine as fun and lively and beautiful people and not just victims or
00:30:10.700villains. It's a fascinating film. It's one of my absolute favorites. I'm definitely going to watch
00:30:16.560that. What do you think of that first, the first one that comes to my mind that was just fun,
00:30:21.540enjoyable campy has to be but i'm a cheerleader one of my favorite films
00:30:26.660one of my favorite films i love this earlier for so many reasons that's around then right
00:30:33.080that late 90s right nine it would be 99 or 2000 yeah because that was the first time
00:30:39.880like bound was kind of dark and a little bit seedy and a little bit whatever and um i i don't
00:30:47.660again i don't have a lot of cognizant memory of the 90s in general because you got to also remember
00:30:52.700the 90s you'd also have the flip side of the 80s and 90s in which you know the f word was used
00:30:59.660constantly for everything like cons i watched we're watching teen wolf like the tv show heaven
00:31:06.620help me but i i re-watched teen wolf with michael j fox yes that scene i love the movie yep yeah he
00:31:14.220says are you an f style says that every like it i would like to count you could do a drinking game
00:31:21.020with that word and then i start to remember well that's what the that's what the 90s were like
00:31:26.780that's the 80s for the most part the 80s but definitely into the 90s that's what it was like
00:31:31.980even if there was a gay character and then you have butter but i'm a cheerleader and it just0.91
00:31:37.020chucked everything you know what i mean like and it put everything on the table and it was just
00:31:41.900such an incredible awesome satire um that i that was the first time you could laugh and you could
00:31:49.980you could enjoy the i mean they were going through something but you could enjoy it you
00:31:54.300know what i mean and really dig into stereotype and gender norms and all of those it's absolutely
00:32:00.300one of my favorite films and it's fun because it really takes a very dark and serious uh subject
00:32:06.220which is conversion therapy and it puts this ridiculous camp filter over it because it's
00:32:11.420trying to make light of the real serious situation but it's like you find love and you find laughter
00:32:17.980within something that could be so painful because a movie that is reflective of that
00:32:22.140is the miseducation of cameron rose cameron post and that movie is essentially the same film but
00:32:29.100without the camp filter and but like i remember buttermer cheerleader latter days and were the
00:32:37.100world mine were essentially my that was essentially my trio of i'm coming out what do i watch first
00:32:44.060and those three films put together uh essentially started my my coming out journey and then
00:32:50.460obviously um uh another gay movie which is just we had the absolute pleasure of interviewing jonah
00:32:58.380blackman who was nico in another gay movie on our podcast and it was it was like it was so funny
00:33:05.040because he's just like guys I was in a gay movie like a long time ago it's all good but we were
00:33:08.780just like fangirling so hard because we're like oh my god it's Nico and it's like the impact that
00:33:14.460these these individuals have made in their films they don't understand because you know when I was
00:33:20.000early 20s so 21 22 I expected myself to be you know straight acting macho jock-ish
00:33:30.800uh ever can be everything because i thought that's what i was supposed to look like when you0.96
00:33:35.020when you come out and the only things you have to sort of show you what the queer world is like
00:33:39.720media wise you've got queer as folk and you've got essentially you know porn and the flavor at0.98
00:33:45.400that time was twink european trash so when i looked at another gay film or another gay movie0.98
00:33:52.160excuse me i see the big jock character and i'm like oh that's who i want to be that's what i'm0.99
00:33:56.100supposed to be and the second i see nico who is unapologetically flamboyant who is loud and
00:34:02.140colorful and wild and then you you're like oh i'm not supposed to like him because i'm not supposed
00:34:07.380to some random voice in the ether said don't like this this is what you want to be he becomes that
00:34:13.440character because he's everything he's such a perfect expression of self that when you see him
00:34:18.760you're like i can be flamboyant and i can be bright and colorful and wild and i can still love myself
00:34:24.340because he does so when you see these kind of characters in these films even though it is a0.90
00:34:27.960and just for the audience an absolute garbage fire of a film it is a trash fire that will never stop
00:34:33.500burning and i am obsessed with it because it's one of my favorite films of all time but it's just
00:34:38.660wild to see like that representation at such a pivotal age or a pivotal moment at least for me
00:34:44.500really was able to help me discover who i was you know so i love it i also think it's super
00:34:52.420important too because that was the the first time that you probably saw characters that lived in a
00:34:59.660universe where there was no homophobia yes um it was completely switched around where it was all
00:35:06.720like bright colors they lived in this kind of alternate universe where homophobia didn't exist
00:35:11.320um and sort of played into that american pie sort of like storytelling where it was like wanting to
00:35:18.240to kind of get laid get laid and that was it yep um it's funny that you bring up latter days
00:35:24.620because i do that was one of my favorite movies um because it came out in like 2005 so it was like
00:35:30.420we had no 2001 2003 we had um 2003 um we had one copy at blockbuster when i worked there in 2005
00:35:40.820um and i rented it and i was like absolutely like it was wonderful um and like it's not a great
00:35:51.000movie it's not it's not a wonderful movie but it's also written by cj cox who wrote soup home
00:35:56.780alabama which is is one of the movies my parents love um and i actually quite like it as well
00:36:02.240but he did get like a lot of really great actors like he had joseph gordon levitt he had mary k
00:36:08.320Place. He had Jacqueline Bessette, Wes Ramsey from Charmed. Amber Benson. She plays Piper's
00:36:16.460son. Did you watch Charmed, Joanna? A little bit. A little bit. Again, I was deep into Buffy.
00:36:22.400Buffy for life. You were either Buffy or you were Charmed. That was it. There was no in-between.
00:36:27.820It's true. I don't really know if you could lie in both. Here's the thing. I think you can lie
00:36:35.040both as long as you only watch it until the third season um because after that that's when shannon1.00
00:36:41.600doherty left but um there was there was some very deep ties between like the same um feminist energy
00:36:49.380you got from buffy you got from charmed they sort of began to abandon um like the the rooted
00:36:58.020and sisterhood bond they had um in season four i think it was just the show was going a different
00:37:03.640direction the creator left i do have a few questions but i will after his statement
00:37:09.380but i think it was something that i was i was really impressed and i think
00:37:14.080from what i remember of the landscape of queer film back then like there was like rock haven0.88
00:37:19.500which was just a horrific garbage fire um there wasn't a lot of movies you could watch and i0.95
00:37:25.160always say this during the podcast i just want a movie i do i just want to i just want a gay film0.86
00:37:30.940that i can watch it's like candy it's like mental floss it's like that bubble gum like romantic
00:37:37.100comedy that you see and there doesn't have to be suffering or struggle it's just like only me
00:37:42.060only you or me you remember that movie me or you oh my god yes i love that movie
00:37:47.200imagine me and you oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i love that exactly exactly yeah i always say to every
00:38:00.320single podcast that we record i always say if you just removed yeah like if it was like um if you
00:38:05.660just removed the male or the female character and replaced it with a character of the same sex and
00:38:10.360you did not change the script it would not change the movie 100 listen guys i'll tell you that you
00:38:16.160i i don't again i don't know if you guys watched 90210 did you watch it when it came out the
00:38:21.000original i was too young first one for the love of god stop watching
00:38:25.820it's on prime and for anybody that's listening that is my age and grew up on that the the first
00:38:38.360few episodes you have the brandon and dylan character doesn't matter it can just the same
00:38:43.280character and every other you know the two main guys anyways you watch their friendship and i'm
00:38:49.480it is watching it for the first time and she's like are they gonna kiss i'm like0.67
00:38:53.520i think my kids are so homoerotic i swear to god it's like them becoming friends it's like brandon0.70
00:39:04.480sees him protect the little kid in in the science lab and he he asked another who is that guy i want0.83
00:39:10.480to be friends with that guy i'm like are they gonna date i've seen this show but i feel like
00:39:14.400they might be i mean if this was made 20 years later it might have actually happened but back
00:39:18.400then they would have just ended in some tragedy horrible i have a question did you want it earlier
00:39:23.440in the podcast did you say you're watching teen wolf yeah because i show right yeah i have to
00:39:29.360trade so anna watches an episode of beverly hills 90210 and i watch an episode of teen
00:39:34.480wolf okay so my question to you is like the character of styles the character of styles
00:39:39.600is a is a perfect uh example of some character that is queer coded and the story that they tell
00:39:46.000with styles and i can't remember the head vampire's name who's played by tyler hodgson
00:39:51.200yeah so that entire relationship is told through a queer lens so you have this character of styles
00:40:00.080who is written in a typical female fashion where he is always the um the uh the um0.56
00:40:09.360um um the one who needs saving um right he always comes to save him so it's like the entire but the
00:40:17.940entire fandom was like obviously styles is bisexual because you've written him like this
00:40:24.080and they were gaslit by the creators who were like no why would you think that but you watch
00:40:30.000you watch it watch it for the music they play with him in um i think it's derek i think that's
00:40:35.000the character's name um uh watching with like episodes in yeah yeah watching for the fact that
00:40:42.740it's always written that he needs saving by this one character the music is playing he is always
00:40:48.360the damsel in distress all he is is male and that's the most interesting thing about it is
00:40:53.580the fact that oftentimes for for gay men and for like for queer women i wouldn't say it's as
00:40:59.340prevalent because writers have a lot more like latitude to write characters yeah um but for
00:41:07.260queer men you're often like you have like a falcon and a falcon um the winter soldier and0.60
00:41:12.860captain america it's written as a romance 100 it's not 100 no and it's it's funny because you0.97
00:41:20.280have all these people like these incels in their basement being like how could you think that
00:41:24.840and you're like because every capture of film every frame it's the winter soldier
00:41:31.120the music old email the music the frame the framing soldier was a woman they would be married
00:41:38.200agent or who like it wouldn't matter like they would be together there's no question in my mind
00:41:43.400but then you see like tony stark and him and you're like no they're friends like it's it's
00:41:47.560filmed so differently but like i have to just because i want to jump back a little bit on this
00:41:52.700because um i mean i've always said and if i ever have the money and the resources i will rewrite
00:41:59.380vampire diaries and i will make bonnie a queer male so that enzo and him could be together forever0.60
00:42:04.160because it's so clear that at least enzo and damon had a relationship enzo was in love with0.74
00:42:09.680damon and i mean at least when it comes to vampires bisexuality is just second nature it is what it is
00:42:15.260sexuality is sexuality no matter what you are but when it comes to like representation i always
00:42:19.880thought that i loved because bring it right back allison hannigan as willow is still one of my
00:42:26.680absolute favorite characters of all time and i i could not get enough of her and tara love tara
00:42:32.840if i could have brought her back myself i would have i have the powers but um what i love is
00:42:39.700you have this sort of like there was this moment in time when queer representation had to have some0.84
00:42:45.100sort of supernatural element to it like there were all those terrible tv shows it had to be0.97
00:42:50.360full of sex and witches or full of sex and vampires or just buffy or werewolf or werewolves0.99
00:42:56.520there had to be some sort of mystical element to it because god forbid they just be normal humans1.00
00:43:00.440trying to live a normal life that isn't surrounded by by gay sex and drugs and act a fool but what i0.99
00:43:07.260love now is that that's back in 1998 1999 uh fast forward to 2022 and we have like heart stoppers0.99
00:43:15.820and the representation in heart stoppers is so wholesome and so real that at least as a man who
00:43:24.820is 36 i look at that and i just wept yes i aged myself just wept the whole time because you have
00:43:34.620show that has no sex no swearing no drugs no no no nonsense it was just here and people making the
00:43:42.140right choices everything was just it was exactly the way a teen would act because for so long we've
00:43:48.300over sexualized the teenage story and when you're looking back at queer as folk and you're looking0.77
00:43:54.140at buffy and you're looking at vampire diaries and you're looking at all these like all these shows1.00
00:43:58.780it's young royals that one of the new ones it's so difficult to be on board because
00:44:03.180it's such a it's such a difficult representation but when you see something like heart stoppers
00:44:08.500and it just seems such like such a genuine natural progression of what a true friendship then turn
00:44:15.720relationship would be like when you're just a teen who has no idea what's happening around him like
00:44:20.640i would have very much been the nick of the story it's nick right nick and charlie yeah nick when
00:44:28.040he comes like i don't want to spoil the uh part of it but he says do you know what bisexual is to
00:44:32.760an adult and like it just shows the innocence of that character not fully grasping a who they are
00:44:38.780but be what the community has to offer and i think that is so it's such a powerful show
00:44:45.300because it shows just the natural progression of of finding self and yeah and i just absolutely
00:44:51.740love it so heartstop i have a question for both of you actually um also i want to start with
00:44:57.300because i want to ask the question and we've been talking for so much um i honestly believe that the
00:45:05.000characters that have been written for us and especially in media and um in the news straight
00:45:12.140people tend to overly sexualize gay people like we're always rooted in in sex so a lot of the
00:45:18.940characters you see in in media are the same and i think that's why heart stoppers was so refreshing
00:45:23.520for all of us because it was told just as a very wholesome coming of age story that was not told
00:45:29.780through struggle or sex or or some like sexual gratification so i'm wondering if if you can
00:45:38.440a look back and find that same kind of story being told for a lesbian side because oftentimes
00:45:43.940lesbians are seen as a lot more emotional than gay men gay men are just like transactionally0.87
00:45:49.220sex addicts yeah well that's the thing too right like i think i think culturally in cinema on0.97
00:45:58.300television women have always had and it's it's interesting and it's very um it's very confusing
00:46:06.660and complex but we've always had a bigger range right like in general guys if we just you know
00:46:15.000talk about the roles, the dichotomous roles of men and women. Women, we've always had a bigger,
00:46:21.400a bigger road to travel down, right? We could put on pants. You all can't wear skirts. Well,1.00
00:46:26.660you can, but you understand what I'm saying? Like genuinely acceptable. We can become doctors and
00:46:32.360become lawyers. And we're, you know, whereas when guys become nurses and elementary school teachers,
00:46:38.180you are judged. So in that vein, men historically have been very much limited to the diversity that
00:46:46.120they're allowed to be. And then when it comes to, I think, any discussion about the queer community
00:46:52.360is that when you start talking about sexuality, and when you start creating those characters,
00:46:59.120the only thing you and you see it happen in our culture, the only thing you ever talk about is
00:47:04.140sex yeah right like you can't and you see this spilling over into the don't say gay bill and
00:47:11.640all of that political mess right it's like as a teacher i walk into the classroom and i say
00:47:17.880oh my god my this weekend my wife and i got that that's a normal story any teacher any straight
00:47:24.580teacher could come into their classroom and have that discussion but when i do it if i was to do
00:47:30.080in florida i'm sexualizing myself right i'm pushing it on something and all of a sudden
00:47:36.540it's about sex it's not just about my partner and the weekend and the way we talk right so i think
00:47:42.480as soon as you challenge that norm and that norm that has been so incredibly foundationally stable
00:47:51.160which it hasn't been but fictionally anyways you know the way the stories we tell like as though
00:47:56.880gay people haven't been around forever. But the stories we tell that those roles and those norms
00:48:02.780and that commonality of heterosexuality is so common that as soon as you start to chip away at
00:48:09.320it, it really does fracture the core of everything else. If something is the foundation of a house,
00:48:18.520it is that it is our socialization when it comes to our gender and sexuality norms in in many
00:48:27.760countries and so when we start chipping away at that that's why i think it's so incredibly
00:48:33.080explosive right now because it's starting to fracture when we chip away at that everything
00:48:38.620is going to change and that's what scares crap out of people i actually make space not for0.97
00:48:44.780assholes I don't I don't make space for bigots I don't make space for hateful but I I do make0.94
00:48:50.800space a little bit for the people that just feel shook because because everything's always been0.97
00:48:57.160this for so long to them yeah you know like when I was in high school and I've said this to Stu
00:49:04.440when I was in high school when you're in the bubble whatever the hell that bubble is right
00:49:08.880This straight, white, I wasn't Christian, but you get my point.
00:49:14.040I wasn't any other religion, you know, middle to upper class individual.
00:49:19.800When you live in that bubble, you have the ability and sometimes the subconscious choice to exclude all other realities.
00:49:33.980guys i look at my my you know that when you look at your graduation picture of all the kids that
00:49:38.900graduated half half of my school were kids of different colors and i'm like what well that's
00:49:48.020not where i went that's how much i could walk around like this right yeah i remember kids i
00:49:55.460was friends with but i think that that's what all of this is doing so when we start to shake that
00:50:01.580And the more movies come out and the more television shows and the more people get, you know, levels of notoriety and they start talking about this.
00:50:11.220I think it makes it very easy for the nice, beautiful people who just don't know.
00:50:17.100Right. I say the I say ignorant with all the respect in the world.0.93
00:50:21.280And because you can be ignorant of that. Right.1.00
00:50:24.340But you get stupid people, because that's a choice, manipulating and using it and then driving it home as fear. Right? And I think that's what the media has to rail against. And I think men, gay men have always had, and I've always said, such a harder road.1.00
00:50:45.900And you guys have a harder road for so many reasons, but particularly, I think it comes down to sexism, and it comes down to prioritization of the masculine over the feminine. And as soon as you're a gay man, you've given up all that power. What are you doing? You're killing masculinity, right? You're killing that power structure.
00:51:07.280um and i think it really it upsets that balance whereas women because women are sexualized0.99
00:51:16.300differently from that power dynamic we've always been given space right like i told stew i got this
00:51:23.360horrible comment recently on uh it was an instagram or whatever but for the most part
00:51:28.280i walk around this world and i and forever and i feel pretty safe being a gay even looking the way
00:51:36.200I do okay some of it must be ignorance like it's naivety like I'm sure I could walk into something
00:51:41.180bad but I know what it is because I have friends because you know you know I know what it is to be
00:51:48.360a gay man and face a whole different level and I remember going back to the shepherd story that
00:51:54.940Matthew Shepard story hit me when I came out I think it was my first year teaching second year
00:52:01.420maybe so i'd come out not too long before that and we did the play the laramie project at school
00:52:07.660they put it on the production i remember watching that and and that was the first time i really
00:52:13.020learned it and i was just i didn't even know what to do with the information you know and i think
00:52:21.280that's what that's the story those stories still need to be told um because i i people need to
00:52:32.160understand what that hate still looks like and it's not for you it's not for you it's not for me
00:52:37.160anymore it's it's educational it's yeah it's a history we're gonna get to broke back mountain
00:52:43.400we get to movies that are major movies with big celebrities and big stars standing up and saying
00:52:48.760no, this is an important story to tell. And all of a sudden, it doesn't change things necessarily
00:52:53.560for you and I, but it changes things for the, you know, straight suburban middle of the road
00:52:59.880couple watching that movie and going, Oh, my God, I never thought, you know, sorry, that was a long
00:53:08.440rant. No, and you're right. Because like, when you know better, you have an obligation to do
00:53:12.080better. And I feel like when people sort of let their blinders off, if they're, you know,
00:53:17.800privy to the cause they will at least try to make conscious efforts to do better in those situations
00:53:23.360you know so that we don't have uh people being bullied in schools and on the like the road and
00:53:29.880and at bars and wherever it is because they know better you know yeah right and i've seen that
00:53:36.480change so go ahead stew right also but also like the matthew after i think the the horror and the
00:53:41.760violence and just the the brutality and cruelty of how he was killed it was able to unite the
00:53:49.360nation in the u.s to change the hate crime legislation um to get a bipartisan bill passed
00:53:55.660uh through the con through congress um and i also think too that while it did
00:54:03.780benefit and i hate saying the word benefit the community by extending hate crimes to
00:54:11.440address uh sexual orientation um it also gave rise to the westboro baptist church
00:54:20.000and phelps and gave phelps a platform so i think that when there is good there's also bad there's
00:54:27.220that push and pull um i am happy um it is constant i would would um uh i would urge people to read
00:54:39.720his granddaughter's autobiography or her memoir I think it was absolutely fantastic
00:54:45.680it was a hard read like I didn't want to read Stuart requested that I do that a couple years
00:54:52.780ago now and when I read it it was it was difficult to be on her side but at least you understand the
00:54:59.120perspective of who she is and why it happened because when and exactly that blinders they
00:55:07.020genuinely thought that their way was the only way and it was it's interesting when they have to
00:55:13.180like deprogram themselves to look beyond what they've been taught their whole lives which
00:55:18.300again is difficult for anybody but like it was 100 fascinating yeah i still think she's
00:55:23.660but her the memoir is called unfollow a journey from hatred to hope um um and it's written by
00:55:31.820Megan Phelps Roper, which I actually think is interesting because how she ended up leaving
00:55:37.180the church and kind of coming into her own was through Twitter, was that people...
00:55:57.340But that's exactly what I think, you know, like I genuinely believe. And what we're seeing right now, guys, is another push. Think about what's happened. Like when I've been teaching for 20 years and in the last 20 years, I'm telling you, I have gone from watching kids still say the F word and and fighting about gay marriage to me coming into school last year and a kid coming up to me saying,
00:56:25.140uh joe i think it's a good idea that if we get everybody to write down their pronouns so we know
00:56:30.380we can all be respectful that mean they taught me that and i'm like that's wild you know i have
00:56:36.020kids who are trans everybody accepts it in a minute and and the younger they are the more
00:56:41.920impressive they are you know and the more they are about everything and i work at a small school
00:56:47.640um but i think that it it's those kind of kind of conversations it's that kind of um
00:56:56.560you know that kind of dialogue that changes well it just it changes everything and like i said the
00:57:04.600difference in 20 years is i was terrified to come out when when i first started teaching that
00:57:09.780private school i thought i'd get fired so i didn't tell anybody right like that's how i started and
00:57:15.180now i have tattoos left right and center i talk about my wife i i mean i'm on tick tock doing
00:57:21.980whatever it is i do there the kids very openly they don't even want to talk about gay marriage
00:57:27.900or gay adult there's boring of course that's not even a you know yeah but but i think with the
00:57:35.100the the not the existence because it's not the existence of the trans community because again
00:57:40.860been around forever the notoriety and this social media presence of the trans community and the0.50
00:57:50.420queer community and what it's done to get at kids and people in small towns that don't have access0.67
00:57:57.100right so we've created this lovely thing where you don't need to feel alone if you're living in0.98
00:58:01.740Wyoming anymore or wherever not to pick on Wyoming because it happens everywhere but what that's done
00:58:07.960is it's like created different versions of the little Baptist church, the heritage, you know,
00:58:15.520everywhere, because it's an uprising to something they see that's pervasive now and changing
00:58:21.100everything and yada, yada, yada. And that's what the pushback is. You know, so you have all these
00:58:26.220laws going on all over the place in the United States. And to be honest, remnants of it in
00:58:33.460Canada. And it's the pushback to this thing they think is new, but it's not new. It's just
00:58:40.020It's fascinating. It's fascinating. Like, the idea that or the thought that they think that
00:58:46.860this is a new concept of being a trans person or, or like, I just, it's shocking. And I don't
00:58:55.020understand. I sometimes I just don't understand how someone could look at another person say,
00:59:00.340no you're wrong like that's horrible and it's like it's just who i am so no you're wrong like
00:59:06.500how you don't have that empathy towards another human being i mean stewart has no empathy towards
00:59:11.360anybody but how like another person yeah it's the aquarius but yeah it's just it it boggles
00:59:20.840it absolutely boggles the mind and you look at these people and you think how do you get power
00:59:24.640how does someone so crazy get power over others and it's just fear it's a it's a life of fear
00:59:30.920it's because the problem is that it's not that these concepts are new it's new to them and they
00:59:35.800fear change and as a if you are a small town cis white you know nuclear family white picket fence
00:59:44.260and you see color and and difference and you know non-binary and gender fluid and the trans and
00:59:52.180just poc period it's you see these things and you're afraid and what do you do you you cling
00:59:57.280to the person who promises you that nothing's going to change because you're scared and it's
01:00:02.240right that in and of itself is scary you know because it's just it's so sad well it's so
01:00:08.140interesting because it again like i grew up my mom worked it well i mean i think i think the first
01:00:14.640um surgeries uh trans surgeries went on at wellesley hospital you know what i mean like
01:00:21.600that was it i think i want to say in toronto anyways which was why it was so problematic
01:00:28.680when they decided to shut wellesley as opposed to st mike's well obviously the reasons are
01:00:33.780crystal clear there but wellesley hospital was always very well known for supporting and taking
01:00:40.060care of the trans communities uh sex trade workers the gay community it was it was in a part of
01:00:46.920toronto that obviously wasn't affluent um but my mom worked on plastics my mom worked like she was
01:00:54.040a nurse on that on those floors where some of those first surgeries would go and it was interesting
01:00:59.780because back then it was all about passing right and i i would expect it still is today
01:01:07.160to to a large degree but back then because the surgeries and the hormone regulation and
01:01:12.440everything was so relatively new, the rates of passing didn't really weren't great. So what
01:01:21.340would happen is you would have an individual and predominantly she saw men to women. You would see
01:01:28.600a trans woman get the surgery and go through everything and be still incredibly unhappy.
01:01:33.660And people would write that off to, oh, see, it's just because it's because they were never happy.
01:01:38.700And that's not the reason. But the real reason is because we've created this horrific binary where if you don't fit comfortably in one of those two seats, you feel excluded and marginalized and hated and feared. Right. And that's what create has nothing to do with the parts that they now have or the hormones that they now have. It has to do with the fact that we're still not society at large is still not accepting.
01:02:05.820and I remember when I was at York I met like my first trans friend like a person that I really
01:02:12.560got to know and he was going through when I met him he had top surgery done and he had a very cool
01:02:19.200perspective and and he would say I'm always going to call myself a trans man and I and I'm like oh
01:02:26.120okay and he's like some people want to be called a man he's like that's not my whole character that's
01:02:31.880not my whole person. And he goes, I'm never going to look like Brian, like when I was friends with
01:02:37.140Brian, I'm never gonna look like Brian. I don't care. I don't care. Because this is me. And this
01:02:42.920is the body I got. And this is the way that I present. So I don't need to pretend as though
01:02:48.520that half of my life because he was in his 20s when he transitioned never happened. But that's0.94
01:02:53.840not who I am anymore. And I can embrace this, he would call it like a tertiary kind of category of
01:03:01.300personhood you know and i thought that was fascinating because i never heard anybody
01:03:06.260speak like that i remember um one of my my high school friends now just lifelong friend um she
01:03:14.900didn't she didn't fully grasp or understand that she was trans at the time and so she decided to0.98
01:03:21.380sort of pull away from us and and because we're idiot teens living in the middle of nowhere0.98
01:03:26.020hicksville we just assumed that she was um just ignoring us and just being moody and rude0.90
01:03:32.620and it wasn't until years later where she approached me um again and said you know i was
01:03:38.680struggling with this and and this is what happened and at this point i've been openly gay and out and
01:03:43.540proud for many years and i said oh 100 come over you know come into town we'll we'll we'll get
01:03:49.700together and she said can you help me like go out and and and just go to a gay bar i'd love to just
01:03:55.780be at one i'm like absolutely so my best friend and i anita um she came over and we went on a
01:04:02.100shopping spree we hit hot topic we got her a dress we got her makeup anita is no makeup0.52
01:04:07.440well because i was just like we got to get you the polka dot pin-up dress and she's like that's
01:04:13.080not really my style i'm like and at this point i'm also playing dress up because we're all just
01:04:16.280playing dress up right now and she's like no i kind of want and so she got this really cute dress
01:04:20.780and we put her in makeup and she looked in the mirror and i'll never forget being there
01:04:25.680in that moment where she saw herself for the first time and she tears up because this is who i am
01:04:31.540and just and knowing that like we were there in that moment with her it was just it was so
01:04:38.040beautiful and something you said earlier reminded me of the fact that like i wish we had more of a
01:04:46.760of an actual written or archival history of the individuals that are POC or women or trans women
01:04:54.220who have impacted the history so fervently, like so passionately, because the problem with Western
01:05:02.000media and the problem with just like North America in general is they always want a white
01:05:06.860savior complex. It's always a white savior. And to bring it back to the films, Stuart and I0.67
01:05:11.740reviewed um stonewall which was oh god absolutely one of the worst films we've ever seen because0.89
01:05:18.500stonewall is that it's historically about um trans sex workers and poc women who threw the
01:05:28.320first stone out through the first brick and stood up for the community and in this film it was about
01:05:34.140a rally and rallied and and and you know and that impact that they made and in the film it is about
01:05:39.940a aw shucks corn fed white kid from minnesota who goes to the big city and is becomes like the savior0.56
01:05:46.980of this ragtag group of of misfits in the cleanest version of new york that ever existed oh my god0.61
01:05:53.620with that golden hour all day long every day yeah just a soft perfect hue on him and no matter what
01:06:00.020happened to these street kids he was the one who saved the day and he was the one who got out of
01:06:05.540there and got to school and also stuff and it's so gross because there are so many nurses and
01:06:12.660doctors and and advocates who were such a crucial part of the aids epidemic that would enter the
01:06:21.460room when no one else would that helped those who needed help and we never hear the stories
01:06:26.420the only time you ever hear about those nurses who assisted were on like a facebook post during june
01:06:31.620you know where it's like hey this nurse did x amount for this but she's not in a book she's
01:06:36.100not in a textbook or a history class this is the stuff that we should be learning this is our
01:06:40.420history and it's so sad that we lose all of that because it's not a white dude saving the day you
01:06:46.900know it's it's you tell me i'm sorry stew i want to get this in and then i'll i'll ask you what
01:06:52.980you're going to say but you talk about that the moment of your friend looking at themselves right
01:06:57.300And it always made me cry. If every single person, I don't even care who you are. I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it out straight up. If Ron DeSantis himself had a son and he, wait a minute, but Stuart, he had that moment.
01:07:15.380I know. If that Satan-like figure had that moment and he saw his son, who was never okay with who
01:07:23.920he is, stand in front of the mirror in a dress and he could feel that emotion and he could be,
01:07:30.340I'm telling you right now, the world changes tomorrow. And that's what I think, I do believe
01:07:37.320that media, don't worry, it's all to make money and every movies are going to make money and
01:07:41.760I get all of that. But if you can convey that story you just said to the average person who's
01:07:50.040never had the personal experience or might not ever have that personal experience, to me that
01:07:55.440changes the world tomorrow. Because you cannot be in that room with that person. When they look in
01:08:01.200that mirror and you can feel, like I'm not, I can feel from that story, I feel what you're talking
01:08:08.820about right and the more diversity we have on the screen it gives people the power or the the
01:08:17.940scope of imagination to go oh i think that that's closest to me it's never me it's never exactly me
01:08:27.300but that's closest to me so that's going to give me power to go and do the next thing i have to do
01:08:32.900you know sorry steward what were you going to say it was 17 years ago now i want to i want to just
01:08:40.500respond um to what you said i i wish i hope that is something that these politicians and um
01:08:53.060legislate uh legislators are have the access to doing i hope they have that same empathy
01:08:57.700that we hope that they do. I really do, especially for these kind of abstract children that they
01:09:06.980could possibly have who are kind of going through this. I don't know. I worry that they don't have
01:09:13.460the empathy and the depth it takes to actually take that in for what it is. And I want to believe
01:09:23.620it but i think that's my like the prickly nature of who i am where i'm like i don't know well it's
01:09:30.500when i say a guy like that when i say a guy like ron i don't i don't think it's going to be an
01:09:35.540empathy for a random kid it won't it and a lot of people won't be a random it has to be somebody
01:09:43.860who know and you guys know this i mean i'm assuming you guys were you know not your your
01:09:48.500whole family wasn't running down the pride parade at the same time nope people we know right the
01:09:55.380people we know we don't change all of them you know but i but but we do we do change a lot and
01:10:03.100even if we think we don't change the most hateful person in our family that never accepts us or
01:10:08.300never whatever even in their head we've changed it just a little bit because guess what you've
01:10:13.320had to sit at thanksgiving dinner table with me and you had to realize i'm exactly the same person
01:10:18.120I just date hot women. Like you, you can't, you can't be, but you need to be put in that. So when0.99
01:10:28.040I say it has to be Ron's son, I mean, I quite literally mean that it has to be forced upon him
01:10:34.940because he will never go out of his way to learn that he will never go out of his way. And the,
01:10:39.600I don't think a lot of people have empathy. I don't just think it's Aquarius. I think
01:10:44.040um a lot of people i think a lot of people not even by choice but i'm thinking about myself in0.99
01:10:53.780high school and i just didn't have it because if you're not self-aware how in the fuck are you
01:11:01.060supposed to have empathy for somebody else i that's a good point and so many people i think0.92
01:11:07.920anybody propagating hate around here whether we're talking about politicians or individuals
01:11:12.760they have zero self-awareness so how on god's green earth we can expect them to understand
01:11:18.560anybody else walking beside them or those lived experiences because they have no idea of who they
01:11:24.440are they've never tried they put on a mask they've been taught what they're supposed to do
01:11:29.020and that's it they're going to walk through this life like that so in order to crack that it's
01:11:36.820going to have to be one hell of a of an earthquake underneath them which is why i say it you know it
01:11:41.980has to be a son it has to be somebody in their very close stratosphere someone close to home
01:11:48.220yeah it has to honestly it's just it's education so many people don't understand even the difference
01:11:54.080between sexual identity and gender identity and they're so they're still arguing about it right
01:11:58.780now they're still saying sex are the same thing it's and it's everyone should learn a gender
01:12:03.440unicorn but what's sad is they just but they're all about just sexualizing the experience where
01:12:10.540it's not about sex and it's like i said earlier it's like we we are so quick to sexualize a teenage0.96
01:12:17.000story we're so quick to sexualize a trans story we're so quick to sexualize a gay man or a lesbian0.82
01:12:23.060story because it's just it's easier to see us as those those over sexed crazed villains than as the0.75
01:12:34.000hero of a story we're never allowed to be the heroes that's why all of the the villains in a
01:12:39.780disney film just have a little bit of flamboyancy a little bit of bisexuality a little bit of0.79
01:12:44.520queerness because it's never the it's it's never the the queer person that saves the day it's0.86
01:12:50.640always us either being the victim or the villain and until they can see us oh yeah well they0.91
01:12:56.120couldn't he couldn't literally dance with a man for two seconds burlesque viewing the beast the
01:13:02.460live action live action le lefou um he had danced with a guy he had that character that he danced
01:13:10.300with had a one cross-dressing incident it was played for laughs um it was queer-coded the
01:13:15.740character turned around sashayed away yeah but that movie was that scene was cut both scenes
01:13:21.260were cut in the asian market because they couldn't be shown but i love that scene because he he puts
01:13:27.580the dress on and he has this proud look in his face he puffs his chest he smiles big and the
01:13:32.860wardrobe says go be free be free and she's smiling and i'm like that's amazing because it's it's just
01:13:41.500if everybody else would have shut the hell up about it that is all kids need to go like everybody's
01:13:49.500like oh my god you're gonna convert you're gonna no no that's all kids need to go they don't think
01:13:54.780anything past the fact that he really liked wearing that dress yeah that's it that's as far
01:14:00.160as his head's gonna go that's my vita boy moment he thinks he's exactly you know and we're so
01:14:06.800bent on socialization and we're so bent on limiting and and when they i hate it because
01:14:13.080they're the the word grooming right now i can't even but we're so bent on brainwashing and0.83
01:14:19.740limiting and constructing that the mainstream culture puts all of that on the gay community0.87
01:14:27.380when in essence it's all they've been doing forever yep right that's it kids don't understand0.92
01:14:34.800sexuality they don't understand sex just as much as they don't understand themselves and
01:14:39.360it's them learning and and becoming the people they want to become and i wish i had known i was
01:14:46.400gay in my teens because then i feel like at least i would have had those crucial years to develop
01:14:52.840myself and my personality so i didn't spend half of my 20s if not all of my 20s trying out seven0.95
01:14:58.840different personalities and seven different ways to see maybe this is the one am i the crazy vapid
01:15:04.040queen or am i the socialite am i the the butterfly or am i the mother figure who am i i don't know0.83
01:15:08.420but like you don't get to that's a great point and i think if we're going to create a gay movie
01:15:16.080here. I think the gay movie needs to look something like this. You come out. I remember0.55
01:15:24.660when I came out and I told my friends from high school, I was very nervous to tell all my friends
01:15:28.960from high school that I was gay, right? Because I didn't come out at 25. And I came out and probably
01:15:33.780my closest group of girlfriends, we were playing pool and I told them that I was gay and they
01:15:41.880weren't surprised um one of them because you were playing pool one of them was i'm really good
01:18:04.920How we dress kids, where we send them to school, how we tell boys and girls, like we genderize their play and their language and we just keep getting in their way, you know?
01:18:18.460I just think every student, every kid should be given a training on the gender unicorn or like the, just to have the idea that they can do what they want.
01:18:34.600That gender identity, gender expression, the sex they're assigned at birth, who they're physically attracted to and emotionally attracted to are all very different and don't impact the person, the core fundamental human being that they are.
01:18:50.300Because no one should be ever made to feel that they are not enough, that they are not complete. Everyone should feel from birth throughout their entire life that they are exactly who they're meant to be. And no one can tell them that it's wrong or different or they've changed themselves. Just exactly what you're saying. Let the road go wherever it goes.
01:19:17.260just be a good person your support there yeah yeah yeah yeah all my mother ever said just be
01:19:23.660a good person that's it get educated and and when i say get educated a lot of people think i'm just
01:19:28.540talking about school heaven help me no absolutely not travel put yourself in positions where my god
01:19:35.760we live in toronto and the amount of kids that have never been to like you know little india or
01:19:41.180or had food, you know, had Ethiopian food or, or gone to Korea.
01:19:46.140God, we have such diversity. Go put yourself in it, go exist in it, right?
01:19:52.860Go see what that feels like. And the more that we do that, that's,
01:19:56.860that's the kind of education because you don't need to necessarily travel the
01:20:00.440world. We don't all have the means and the capacity to do that. But crap,
01:20:04.580If you live in Toronto, you have the world, you know, a subway ride away, go figure it out, go experience it. And rather than closing this off and limiting who you're going to hang out with and where you're going to go and who I'm supposed to marry and what religion I'm supposed to be and all.0.99
01:20:23.600it's exhausting when you think about it in its totality right um and it's funny because you
01:20:31.380talk about that stew and my grade seven and eights can have the discussion about the unicorn without
01:20:35.840me even saying it they'll tell me you know because like they just get it they and and they're it's a
01:20:43.700i i have a guys and girls in the class it's a and actually a trans girl i have a diversity of kids
01:20:50.900and they just sit there and they are on it and they talk about it and they don't need to be
01:20:56.860separated into different groups you know and is there giggling sure is it okay to giggle
01:21:03.980yes it is you know what i mean like but the more we try to restrict that and i and i feel that
01:21:11.880about the sex ed curriculum in ontario right now although i don't care because you know i teach
01:21:16.440kids. But when Doug Ford put it back to 98, I'm just like, what are you doing? What are we doing
01:21:23.300here? What are we trying to take away from kids? Because that's all you're doing with that
01:21:28.160curriculum, right? You're limiting what they get to understand and talk about and discuss. And by
01:21:36.780the way, in this day and age, guess what? They're not going to wait for the one copy at Blockbuster
01:21:42.080to rent and secretly smuggle into their house they're going to type
01:21:46.040they're going to type whatever the hell they want in to their computer their phone and you
01:21:52.880want to know what mom and dad if they don't have one guess what they're going to use their friends
01:21:55.840when they go to school let them get educated otherwise i can't even imagine they're going
01:22:02.080to educate themselves on whatever website they find i've i've always been so irked
01:22:08.240because when it comes to like I had one maybe two years of sex education when I was in grade
01:22:15.280seven and eight in Manitoba and then never again because I moved to Ontario for grade nine I think
01:22:22.440I was 13 and it always bothers me that if you don't have the answers to how do you deal with
01:22:30.580STIs what is what do you use for birth control how can you deal with herpes what is the
01:22:38.000proper you know medications for xyz do you understand the genetic or the biological makeup
01:22:43.500of you know a man compared to a woman if you can't answer these questions but you're denying a child
01:22:49.820a professional's answers you're not doing your due diligence as a parent i i can't i hate that
01:22:58.540and i i just uh it bothers me yes sorry seward still uh go for stew
01:23:03.440we raise the hands on the other podcast are we
01:23:07.560um i also think too that parents um especially the parents who are the most vocal about their
01:23:16.520kids being indoctrinated seem to believe that if they monitor and regulate and remove material
01:23:23.360from their child's life that they're not going to find it in alter in other ways and i think
01:23:28.300that the most damaging thing and i think this is something that we can definitely
01:23:31.140say with a surety that movies and television do a great job of creating um characters that you
01:23:40.300know and love and and um and counterparts that you can relate to but they're not a great thing
01:23:45.840to learn like sexual health um emotional health because these are dramatic stories played for
01:23:52.840a television audience so very similar to what Stefan said earlier where um I would have preferred
01:24:00.800to be able to come out in my teens and live that dramatic life that we see played out in the high
01:24:05.780school hallways with all of the straight couples when I was there. We played it out. Right. Same.0.74
01:24:10.960I did it in my twenties as well, but I did it based on the television shows that I watched
01:24:15.700thinking that was how relationships were. There was to be big and dramatic and everything was
01:24:22.560like break. As soon as we were arguing, it was just this kind of this toxic circle that I lived
01:24:28.640in trying to figure out a who i was be who i was in a relationship um be who i was now that i was
01:24:36.620out with my current my friends that i was currently with making new friends and family and all that
01:24:42.540was happening all at once and i was like yeah this is who i am but who am i i have no idea i have no
01:24:48.840one to talk to about this i'm surrounded by straight people and they're all telling me that
01:24:53.220they support me and that i haven't changed but i have changed i just don't know what it is so i'm
01:24:58.440going to wear this really tight clothing now and be virginia george and that's who i am yep because
01:25:04.260i mentioned this i mentioned this recently in our podcast i said that um i knew a person who lived
01:25:09.340in the northern parts of manitoba who had no education at school um in regards to health or
01:25:15.180sexuality and so the only thing that they understood or that they thought the queer
01:25:19.780community was and queer life was like was episodes of queer as folk and paperbacks muddy novels and
01:25:25.480And so when they moved to the big city, which is Winnipeg, which is not a big city, when0.71
01:25:29.120they got there, they assumed that that was a life that they were going to lead, parties0.99
01:25:32.940and drugs and sex and act of fool and nonsense.0.98
01:25:35.700And that's not at all what it is, but that's the only representation that they had and0.98
01:25:39.700the only education that they had where they were.
01:25:42.540Because we are really dropping the ball for our teens and for the students and for our
01:25:49.460kids when we don't at least give them basic fundamental health and sexual safety and just
01:25:56.700understanding of what the definitions of of sexuality are if you deny them that you're
01:26:01.940not doing them a service it's it's sad i i can't also remember they will look it up yeah yes and
01:26:10.520they're not gonna have big healthy discussions and put it on the table i promise you they're
01:26:17.520finding a website or they're going to their friend's house or they're going, you know,
01:26:22.320whatever situation they're going to find themselves in. Like, it was like in the seventies,
01:26:27.660we had, you know, there was nothing. I was going to say, we, I'm not that old. I am that old,
01:26:33.120but I was, I was just born. You know, there was no internet, there was no whatever. And so what
01:26:40.040do we do? Like my grandparents wouldn't have talked to my mom about it when she was a kid.
01:26:44.660Well, guess what? They still found out. And they found out in the most dangerous of ways, right? We can't control information. Anybody thinks that we can control sexuality, which is the fundamental reality of human beings, of all mammals, right, is being sexual is the most asinine thing I've ever heard of in my entire life.
01:27:08.360And the more you try to control it and compartmentalize it and limit it, the more your teens, predominantly, are going to do whatever the hell they want to do as long as a parent's not around or an adult's not around.
01:27:22.800And that, my friend, is how people get into very dangerous, terrifying, life-altering situations because people aren't willing to have the conversation.
01:27:54.460And I'd actually love to hear from you too, Joanna, because I actually don't know this.
01:27:58.440But like I learned everything it was to be, I'll roll back up.0.65
01:28:03.200The fact that we still don't offer sexual health in schools to all students for gay students and like a good idea of how to have a consensual sex, safe sex, and in a way that is safe and comfortable that we do the way we do for heterosexual students, at least from a baseline is insane.
01:28:23.840oh yeah um in 2022 i learned everything about being uh a sexual gay man in my 20s from the0.76
01:28:34.620people who ran prepe um or pre-app on church street people pre-app yeah the people who ran
01:28:41.360the retail workers who i would go in and i'd be like i have a date with this guy what do i do
01:28:46.940and they would be like oh yeah well like you do this you do that but there was nowhere for me to
01:28:53.380go. I learned from watching porn, which is a terrible experience, because you're not getting
01:28:59.720the full story, or you're getting it secondhand, or you're getting it through horrible experiences0.99
01:29:04.780within the gay community. And unfortunately, I got into a relationship early, so I was able to
01:29:13.180figure a lot. Luckily for me, with the advice that I got from people that I met, senior gay0.99
01:29:19.440people in the community which let's face it they were basically my age right now and i thought they0.99
01:29:23.860were ancient um calm down but i was like these old men and now i'm like they were my age or younger
01:29:30.640um stop it and i know and then also like then after that it was through just like
01:29:39.740becoming making sex a transaction and like learning as i went and that's a terrible thing
01:29:46.780No queer person should ever have to go through that because it does leave – it leaves wounds and makes sex a scary thing that you're like, I guess it has to hurt.0.57
01:30:00.960I guess I have to go through this.1.00
01:30:05.240We should offer kids the ability, if they're queer and in school, at least some sort of other option of having good sexual health from a registered nurse or practitioner.0.54
01:30:15.800right because we need we need education because i'm sorry no one sex step i think that needs to
01:30:23.160be i think it's hysterical because the only curriculum-based sex ed that kids have to take0.94
01:30:27.720is in grade nine asinine ridiculous right as i think every year every year i don't care who you0.86
01:30:36.200are if you have to learn shakespeare every year how about we learn about body health and autonomy0.93
01:30:41.560exactly exactly curriculum every year no matter if you're in the straight science curriculum you
01:30:47.980never want to throw a dodgeball again i could give a crap but but this is going to be a part
01:30:52.940of our curriculum and sure bring in you know registered nurses bring in whatever kind of0.71
01:30:58.180professional whatever way we want to make it clinical um because that's what you know parents
01:31:03.400would be like well it needs to be so separate um and and that needs to be part and parcel of every
01:31:10.680single kid's learning experience. And I would even go as far as to say, and no, parents can't
01:31:18.840opt their teenagers out of it. No, thank you. If a teenager is allowed to go to therapy on their own
01:31:25.600and their parents don't get to stop them from that, teenagers, I'm not talking about elementary
01:31:32.380school kids, but teenagers should be allowed to access that from a public school setting without
01:31:39.640their parents writing a note saying johnny's not allowed to learn sex ed from in his grade
01:31:44.440no i don't think parents should have that power no dangerous and sorry stephen if we're going to
01:31:50.440talk about shakespeare i mean i think if juliette a 13 year old girl had even a bit of history like
01:31:55.960sexual uh education she wouldn't have taken a roofie from a priest like we'll just figure that
01:32:00.520out you know because like honestly when it comes to like just learning about sexuality seriously0.82
01:32:05.960If I was 13 years old and I went religion and sexuality and all of a sudden Mormon boy shows up on my web browser, I'm like, well, I'm going to learn something, but it's not the right thing.0.95
01:32:15.220It's definitely not what my parents want me to learn.1.00
01:34:19.060And I don't understand why they would not want them to have a positive experience by having all the information, by understanding consent, understanding bodily autonomy, understanding that there are risks to sex in many different ways, not just pregnancy, and even for their queer kids.
01:34:44.000because like they also are having those feelings and if you are uncomfortable with having those0.65
01:34:50.160those a public health nurse come into the school then at least and teach like gay or queer sex and
01:34:58.460like sex education to the students that's okay but at least have the resources available that
01:35:04.580they can go out without self-identifying within the classroom to find it on their own even if
01:35:11.100a website they can read on their phones something that gives them the information the statistics
01:35:16.860the statistics and the resources available whether it be a chat function or a number to call
01:35:23.420anonymously they're able to get proper medical advice and to be safe and comfortable it's funny
01:35:32.220because okay yeah go ahead i was just it's just funny because you were mentioning like your mom
01:35:39.020and you would watch movies and said if you have any questions just let me know meanwhile i i think
01:35:43.660it was funny because i remember the most common phrase in my home at like between in my adolescence
01:35:47.740was get your hand out of your pants but like that's just me as a person because i always have my hand
01:35:55.660you were just like what oh i just i had a fascination and i she was like get your hand0.91
01:36:01.740out of your pants i'm like why like i don't understand it doesn't matter it's dirty you0.69
01:36:05.580what i mean it doesn't matter it's dirty get your hand here because i've just held on it's dirty0.56
01:36:10.940because i held on to myself people that have said that makes me i'm like how dare we as parents
01:36:19.740tell our children that our anatomy is are you broken do you have any idea the lifelong damage
01:36:29.420that that simple asinine phrase is going to put upon that kid because that that's probably the
01:36:36.940one of the most common right it's dirty dirty it's wrong talk about it talk about it and you0.99
01:36:42.300do that to a grade one boy who has discovered that he has a penis which is the greatest joy in0.99
01:36:47.020his world yep that was mine and you do that and then watch what happens when you do have a predator0.98
01:36:53.900coming around saying we don't talk about this it's true that parent has just set the stage
01:37:01.020for somebody to take advantage by saying we don't right your mom said don't talk about this this is1.00
01:37:06.460dirty right you just set the stage for that you stupid get like it makes me infuriated it really0.99
01:37:14.700makes me infuriated you know and and again going back to the ontario curriculum this is one of the1.00
01:37:20.140things that doug for decided to take out in grade one all all the curriculum said was that kids
01:37:26.460start naming their body parts with real names yeah no yeah exactly and and this was too much0.98
01:37:36.860are you dumb like think of the damage it does to a kid eyes nose mouth we're just gonna skip over0.98
01:37:43.660here we're gonna skip over here oh that's private private parts danger zones no no space yep like1.00
01:37:52.540and then and again the damage that causes is well we were we actually just interviewed alex
01:37:58.060lou who is um a director he's a 36 year old um uh asian american who did an entire documentary
01:38:05.340a film about it's called a sexplanation because at 35 and at 36 he felt even at his age he's an
01:38:13.180openly gay adult man with a partner but he still felt like he had no education he felt that his
01:38:20.080urges both in fantasy and in reality were either wrong or he didn't understand them or maybe i'm
01:38:27.280not maybe not everyone thinks like i do and so during the film he has very candid conversations
01:38:33.000with his his parents and he goes on a quest with doctors and psychologists and therapists
01:38:39.700and scientists and try to discover what sexuality is what sex is and how we can better ourselves
01:38:47.620in education and one of my favorite parts about that film was there was a scene where um like a
01:38:54.040registered nurse um both man and female male and female went to like a little bit of a convention
01:38:59.980center and parents sat with their children and they were educated together and the the point was
01:39:08.460to remove the stigma so that a child can see my mommy or my daddy understands what's going on and
01:39:14.660they're not embarrassed so I'm not embarrassed and then they're given the opportunity to ask
01:39:18.760questions to one another in real time at this at this meeting and it's so educational and so
01:39:24.800powerful because you're taking away that fear and that stigma and that issue where you don't feel
01:39:30.100comfortable or confident enough to have that conversation with your children and vice versa
01:39:33.980so it's one of those things as well do you know what i mean it's just like we need to start if we
01:39:41.820really do want to change stigma and and rates of assault and and rates of unwanted pregnancy and
01:39:51.040all of the all of the negative things that we we surround it doesn't come from shutting up
01:39:56.220It comes from open, honest dialogue between everybody, students, teachers, parents.
01:40:04.460You want to come in? Come on in. You want to sit at the back of my classroom? Cool.
01:40:08.280Like you want to have a whole other night? I'll do a whole other night just with parents so you know what I'm going to put on the table.
01:40:14.860You know, the more we can talk about it and the more that we can really discuss it,
01:40:20.460I would love to have all of my parents in to explain to them what the hell the unicorn is.
01:40:25.400they need that education yeah they need that they've never had it they've been told by their
01:40:30.360parents to shut up and talk about yeah and as queer people and and oh asu had mentioned that
01:40:38.320he went to pre-op and talked to the people who work there to get education on those things but0.95
01:40:42.040one thing that we always talk about on on the pod is that you need to have like an elder gay
01:40:47.500and elder doesn't mean a person in their 50s 60s 70s just a person with experience and and
01:40:52.320information so it's never about like someone like it could be thanks steward what fun we have fun
01:40:59.880no but we oh my god when i was that age when i was 19 i had a fairy gay mother and ever we always
01:41:06.460say we encourage people to find your fairy gay mother who who who helps you with your education
01:41:11.260on um sex and health and the community and giving back and your history and and learning all the0.87
01:41:17.520stuff i had this um background actor ragtag you know cabaret drag queen extravaganza who taught
01:41:25.420me everything barista who taught me everything about what it meant to be camp and queer and
01:41:31.660not being afraid to get tested and buy those condoms and use that lube and have fun and act
01:41:38.920a fool and and try everything once and and we we always say we we encourage people to find if you're
01:41:45.060not getting that education or if you even if you just want to learn about your history just0.99
01:41:50.160go out and and just meet someone and just ask them questions because they'll probably have a0.69
01:41:56.040huge beautiful bright history that you want to know about you know the yeah the queer tapestry
01:42:01.920of experience is important to not only respect but also everyone should add to it everyone should be
01:42:08.340part of that queer community and i often think times we tend to uh exclude members of our own
01:42:16.800community and don't give them the same information um and gatekeep what it is to be queer or what we
01:42:24.260think queer is um and i do think if we and i think that the youngest generation coming up gen z i
01:42:31.640think that they're a lot better at making sure everybody has a voice and i think it's something
01:42:37.680that millennials and gen x are catching up to yeah um because we spent so much time trying to
01:42:43.680find our voice yeah please find someone as old and experienced as stewart someone who's lived
01:42:49.760someone who's seen so many things i mean we're sitting here right now but not only is there
01:43:01.480delineation of age within the community like within you know um gay men gay women bisect
01:43:09.320but there's that separation do you know what i mean yeah how many groups have you ever sat in
01:43:15.400where you know um there's been people who are trans lesbian um gay like the whole gambit
01:43:24.920and then we we put all of that stuff on the table because that tends to not happen
01:43:29.320well no for many reasons you don't want to come off as rude you don't want to ask questions like
01:43:34.220i've joked a few times after watching queer as folk where i'm like guys is this what is this
01:43:39.400what's happening because i mean you can see it's a different kettle of fish no pun intended um0.97
01:43:46.500but we don't do that right and again it's just about closing those doors it's kind of like the
01:43:53.380dividing the kids when you're in grade nine gym all the guys to the left all the girls to the right
01:43:58.720but that kind of sexuality and that kind of openness and that kind of freedom i think would do
01:44:05.520everybody a world of good oh yeah we i was one thing and yeah i was gonna say we have mentioned
01:44:14.860in the past um be careful i am very old um you're falling apart i am i'm holding on by tape and just
01:44:25.600a couple of strings there's a portrait somewhere that's melting it is it's yes it's up in someone's
01:44:31.560attic somewhere um what i was going to say is the fact that i think that we in the queer community
01:44:37.360talk a lot about safe spaces and i i do think that when we we talk about them we talk about
01:44:44.820them as an individualized statement this is a safe space for me and my community of people but
01:44:50.780my community of people is whomever I hang out with and is the kind of the group that I feel
01:44:59.320most safe in. And these spaces that we occupy are safe spaces, but they're actually not. And I think
01:45:05.380that you hit the nail on the head because they're not safe spaces for the wide variety of our
01:45:12.060community. It's safe spaces for very specific people. And I think that as a community, I think
01:45:18.420we have to start moving more toward when we save safe space, we mean safe for everybody,
01:45:24.280safe for everybody encapsulated in the LGBTQIA plus community to make sure that everyone feels
01:45:31.480that same sense of safety that has an equity across all of us and that we're all there to
01:45:39.220to not only push away critique and harassment and violence
01:45:46.240and work to kind of make it a safe space
01:46:06.800And I won't about that exact topic of just a safe space, because we've recently, I spoke to two trans women of color recently.
01:46:15.660And when we were having our conversations, we asked them specifically, like, if we had, we try to create these safe spaces for everyone to enjoy.
01:46:24.300But what we're really saying is we want you to come, but our trans brothers and sisters don't get the same respect or tolerance that we do.
01:46:37.440Our POC queer community or two-spirit queer community does, two-spirit community does not get the same respect that we hope and wish.
01:46:47.800the biggest thing that i noticed is when i said to them what can we do to create more inclusive
01:46:52.300queer spaces that safe spaces they said stop calling it a safe space because it's not because0.90
01:46:57.840gay men and and i'm calling it all out gay men not me or steward but gay men in general are so quick0.97
01:47:05.240to to think they're being witty and funny but harassing trans women you know when you look at0.99
01:47:11.820a trans woman and say oh if you dress like this you'd look fierce oh if you just change your hair0.99
01:47:15.800like this because they think it's drag race this is a person living their life leaves them alone
01:47:19.680they are trying to enjoy this safe space just as everyone else one of the stories that she told me1.00
01:47:24.680was she went to the washroom and as she was leaving two straight two straight white women1.00
01:47:29.840we found out straight in a queer space said um why did the song dude looks like a lady just come1.00
01:47:34.700out of my head and giggle to one another and that's not fair that's not fair for her to feel0.53
01:47:39.120like she can't feel safe where she is supposed to be celebrated and what was interesting is both
01:47:44.740those women said, I feel more comfortable going to a straight bar where I'm just another woman
01:47:50.980in the crowd than going to a gay bar where I'm noticed immediately. And I find that sad. And I
01:47:58.760think that's one of those things where as a community, we have to work on that. We have to
01:48:04.180build real space and real community within our community and not just say, yes, we're part of
01:48:10.560rainbow show it show you have respect for that person you know it needs to start with conversation
01:48:16.560and we also need to remember that every single person a part of the gay community wherever you0.95
01:48:22.560happen to lie in that spectrum you have faced you're going to have a bit of a protective bubble
01:48:28.640you're going to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder you're going to have there will be a
01:48:32.240little bit of a fear component right like why well because you've come up against it so so when you1.00
01:48:39.040make your safe space small like when i make my safe space just lesbians and and by the way just1.00
01:48:44.880lesbians of a particular kind of lesbian right i i create that bubble i do that not just because1.00
01:48:51.280i'm trying to create people that are like me i'm trying to make sure there's nobody that's going to
01:48:56.320um throw stones or or come at me sideways based on questions or innuendo or jokes or whatever
01:49:05.200But in the same moment, we have to make space for the conversation that might be uncomfortable. And people are asking genuine questions that they are ignorant to. And I have to be able to, like as a gay woman, I have to be able to put down that chip on my shoulder for a hot minute and decide one of two things.
01:49:25.520is it a legitimate question coming from ignorance or is it a question come is it is it a question
01:49:31.460is it a bigoted question and those are two different people and I think as a minority
01:49:37.540community the hardest thing and I can't expect it of everybody at all but the hardest thing we can do
01:49:44.780is when somebody comes at you like that to put down your instant I'm gonna smack you back kind
01:49:52.920a reaction and and come at it with was it ignorant they just don't know or or was that
01:50:01.940them being pointed and aggressive because those two those two intents should elicit different
01:50:10.340responses yes you know and again it goes back to the way that i try when people say are you a dude
01:50:15.940or a chick right so such a comment that i get all the time me too it bothers me not it bothers me
01:50:22.900none i don't care right but that's because i've never had i i've never faced significant violence
01:50:30.340going into the woman's washroom and somebody grabbing me thinking i was a guy and beating
01:50:35.140the hell out of me right because if that had happened i don't know if i can answer that
01:50:40.420question nicely anymore i do think that what i've seen on tiktok and social media i will say
01:50:48.500especially tick tock and i'm going to use tick tock as a as an example of this um because it's
01:50:53.300a platform that i'm most used to in my puberty adolescence yeah um yeah my my like yes my
01:51:03.860jesus um is the fact that what i absolutely love is that there is a space for people to learn and
01:51:13.940have these conversations and have the ability for other people to teach on a platform that is
01:51:19.940accessible to people that are not just in their area because i do i do i am a i completely agree
01:51:26.480with you but i am a strong opponent of i do think that people and allies and people who want to be
01:51:32.520allies have to do their own research and education and i don't think it's up to you or me or you
01:51:38.380Joanna to educate them. But again, to what you said, if they come with qualified questions or
01:51:45.640a question about something they've talked about, I have no problem helping. I have no problem giving
01:51:50.440clarification if I can, if it's my place to go. But I also think it's important to know that,
01:51:57.840and I think we said this in the last podcast I was in, Joanna, when we were filming recording
01:52:02.760together is the fact that i am not the expert on all things lgbtqia experience exactly and i am
01:52:11.960still learning things and i use the wrong terminology sometimes and i catch myself um in
01:52:18.200some of those very easy um uh shaming jokes that i um and those kind of um pejorative statements
01:52:29.880that we throw at each other as comedy.
01:52:35.300But I do think that TikTok has opened up a portal
01:52:38.080and a platform for people to be able to reach out
01:52:59.880and is absolutely lovely um is this like a transition that's being followed on tiktok
01:53:06.600okay cool yeah so they they started the transition on tiktok um she is uh keeping everyone updated
01:53:15.060with how everything is experiencing and really has has positioned it as let's transition together
01:53:22.740um and she's asking questions but it's a it's a wonderful thing i do think that
01:53:29.220i think that it offers a very easily accessible platform in dylan for people to be able to feel
01:53:42.460safe in that because she looks visibly appealing and i think that's some of some of the kind of
01:53:51.720pushback they're getting from the trans community being like of course everyone likes her she looks
01:53:58.680like a disney princess listen but isn't that true of life in general 100 people pretty people i mean0.92
01:54:09.160you know they get all we've we had this conversation there's a lot of ugly people
01:54:14.200getting i don't care what sex you are i want your general attention listen listen pretty people get0.95
01:54:21.560all the advantages oh 100 doesn't suck i drive a tesla and i live in a condo i didn't pay for0.72
01:54:28.280any of this stuff i get it i had i put an amazon wishlist out and it was just like i want a house
01:54:33.160and i want a car and they're like yeah for sure thanks everyone now i i'm a little bit different
01:54:39.400because i think i like to put my feet into a more aggressive categories of people because i'm under
01:54:46.120the delusion that the guy that comes at me predominantly men that comes at me hard like
01:54:52.200comes at me like calling me names or whatever like i'm like i'm gonna turn this guy watch i'm
01:54:58.040gonna talk him out of his prejudice watch me do it and i would say maybe one out of 30 um i do it0.90
01:55:05.000But holy shit, do I feel victorious at the end of that? Because, and here's the reason, the person that's nice about the question, we've already, we, they've already been won over. They're good people. They're, they, they, they're already going to go look it up, right?0.89
01:55:22.540It's not the person that's like with the Nazi flag out their window, but the person that's still coming aggressive because of how they've been raised, because of what they've said, because of whatever.
01:55:34.480That person isn't going to look anything up ever, never going to do their own research.
01:55:40.480And in my head, I'm like, I might be the only person that could ever like just I keep talking.
01:55:47.120I keep talking. I do this on Twitter all the time.
01:55:49.060Anna hates it I'm just gonna keep talking and talking and talking and never swearing
01:55:53.260never calling them out letting them say whatever they say and just gonna keep until at some point
01:56:00.220maybe I win I do it on my lives all the time because I feel like that's the space of the
01:56:06.740fight in a lot of ways and I know it might be very um you know self damage at some point
01:56:13.440it could cause some damage but i feel like that's the fight right it's heavy exhausting on you
01:56:20.740yeah yeah but like but you're doing but you're doing the right thing if you're
01:56:25.040you're at least trying yeah i don't ever take anything for the most part i take very little
01:56:32.520personally and so maybe it's my lack of empathy that's just like whatever whatever i've just
01:56:38.040shut down where i'm like oh he's not talking about me somebody came into my live the other
01:56:42.040day and goes you have the worst hair I've ever seen what are you trying to be a dude I said
01:56:45.980listen sir you can criticize what I'm saying if you want to criticize a lot of things about me
01:56:53.020you might be able to find my soft spot I'll tell you where all my confidence lies this haircut
01:56:57.920right here sir you you're not cracking that but I made him laugh I made him laugh because I wasn't
01:57:05.800have it any part of that yeah and then i stayed for an hour and eventually says you know once it0.94
01:57:12.520okay i'm so i came in like a dick i'm sorry you're cool and so in my head that's the you know0.84